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The Current Transcript for August 13, 2021

Host: Laura Lynch

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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LAURA LYNCH: You've seen them, the politicians already crisscrossing the country, shaking hands, making announcements, making deals, a federal election is coming with the announcement expected Sunday. And as part of the government's run up, it's been signing a flurry of agreements with provincial and territorial governments to provide more subsidised day care. Today, we dive into the details of those deals. And then.

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Skateboarding is one big family. It's sports skating by yourself so you can have a bunch of friends. And that's what's cool about Comtesse. You know, all the girls from all around the world come to this one contest and skate together. And we have lots of fun.

LL: The sport of skateboarding sure has changed. Its suddenly making teenage girls into international superstars that 13 year old Olympic bronze medallist Sky Brown, who helped inaugurate the sport as a brand new event in Tokyo. We'll talk about the buzz. It started in the boarding community back here in Canada. And in about 30 minutes, Globe and Mail health columnist Andre Picard will be here. We'll talk about the fourth way variants of concern and how many restrictions we really should be rolling back right now. And later this morning.

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What we need is not thousands of people being perfect climate activists, but millions of people doing the best they can because just caring and being worried is not enough at this point.

LL: Ayana Elizabeth Johnson and Katharine Wilkinson are both scientists and want the world to know there are still things we can save in the face of climate change. We'll revisit their conversation with Matt Galloway about their book, All We Can Save. But we begin this morning with the longstanding promise of affordable child care.

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Provinces sign daycare funding deals with Ottawa, as federal election looms

Guests: Diana Ratos, Colleen Lussier, Susan Prentice

LL: So, as I said, an election call within days coming in the wake of Ottawa's push to sign day care deals across Canada, affordable childcare is likely music to the ears of parents who have lived through the pandemic, working from home with little kids underfoot. But not all provinces have signed on to receive the federal funding Manitoba did earlier this week, hashing out a deal that paves the way for ten dollar a day day-care in that province. This mom says it's welcome news.

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I'm the one who's been saying home a lot more with her. So I'm passing up opportunities and more income because it just doesn't make sense some days to put her in day-care and go to work. And I think it's amazing to recognise the struggles that everybody goes through and the sacrifices everybody makes to raise tiny humans. I think this is awesome.

LL: Manitoba joins five other provinces and Yukon in negotiating a deal with the federal government. But parents in places like Ontario, Alberta and Saskatchewan are still waiting to see if their provincial governments will do the same. Diana Ratos is a former early childhood educator and the mother of a two year old, and she joins me now from Brampton, Ontario. Good morning.

DIANA RATOS: Good morning.

LL: I'm wondering what your reaction was when you heard about the day-care subsidy deals announced in Manitoba this week for parents.

DIANA RATOS: I am so happy for them. I mean, universal childcare has been an issue for over a decade or more. I'm so happy for parents to get that relief. I'm happy that their government actually jumped on board. And I'm helping. Ontario does the

LL: same. Yeah, because in Ontario, where you live, these can be very high and you actually qualified for a subsidy. But that may not be the case next year. What would that mean for you and your family?

DIANA RATOS: For me and my family, it just adds to stress. I mean, a woman like myself, I do want to achieve economic independence and stay in the workforce with the day-care prices so high, I mean, monthly on average, it would be about 1685 dollars a month for day-care. And that makes me just stress thinking about it, even though it's not till next year just thinking how we can survive what we need to basically nip. And then the other it comes down to the point of, OK, I want to put her in quality, affordable child care. But since that's not an issue, will I have to go to a relative? Will I have to go to an unlicensed day-care? Which obviously has safety concerns for me.

LL: So I'm wondering, what sacrifices would your family have to make to afford that regular day-care cost?

DIANA RATOS: I would say vacations and the extra curricular activities, anything that we wanted to do that's just for fun, just to get our mind off the pandemic. Just family things. We just have to cut that down. We haven't really looked at a budget yet just because I've been so just stressed about it. So we haven't really done that yet. But it would just be anything, extra curricular activities for my child, for our family.

LL: But I understand you've also discussed the possibility of actually just quitting your job.

DIANA RATOS: Yes, well, just me. But, yeah, I don't want to I mean, I love working. I love being in the workforce. And the thought of me having to I mean, if I have to and it makes sense, which is I mean, you're spending 25,000 dollars a year on childcare. It kind of makes sense.

LL: And here's the other part of it, is the possibility that you might want to have more children. What would it mean to that?

DIANA RATOS: It's not in question right now just because of things. Inflation is just going high. Prices are going high with covid. We all know everything's on the rise, the price rise and child care just hasn't change. Working as an EC, I advocated for universal child care. And like other provinces, we like Quebec and now Manitoba. It's a societal responsibility. It's seen as a benefit to everyone in Ontario has yet to adopt that mindset. So it's just stressful on parents.

LL: Now, you just mentioned this. You are trained as an early childhood education worker, but you but you decided to leave your work. Why did you do that?

DIANA RATOS: The wages were really low. I'm not sure if anyone knows. But if you get paid our registered our ekis get paid really low. I'm not even sure how they're surviving. So it comes to a question from this end. If parents are paying sixteen hundred dollars roughly a month for child care, where's it going if it's not going to be our early childhood educators?

LL: So how much were you being paid when you quit and how much do you think you're worth in that role?

DIANA RATOS: Oh, let's just say about fifteen dollars an hour worth. I would say thirty plus,

LL: But it's OK. So we're expecting an election call this weekend. Yeah. I wonder how much the issue of child care weighs on you and might influence how you vote.

DIANA RATOS: Extremely important for me, extremely, and I mean, hey, if we can't get to what Manitoba is getting to, let's just start somewhere. Let's just cut like the1600 parents might have to pay a month. Let's cut that and reduce that to 30 percent. Let's just see that Ontario's working for families and caring about children. And, you know, data is an essential building block for a healthy society. So let's see someone that cares about that and just nip this cost, whether it's by 30 percent, 50 percent, parents will take it. We just need some help.

LL: But would this issue help you decide who to vote for?

DIANA RATOS: Of course, no one on the list.

LL: OK, well, we've got some weeks to go. I'm sure it will be discussed. Diana, thank you for your time.

DIANA RATOS: No problem. Thank you.

LL: Diana Ratos has a two year old daughter and is saving to pay for her day-care next year. We reached her in Brampton, Ontario. Now, the changes in Manitoba include a set starting wage of 25 dollars an hour for certified early childhood educators. Colleen Lussier Musea is director of building blocks on Balmoral, and that is a YWCA run day-care in Winnipeg. Hello.

COLLEEN LUSSIER: Hi.

LL: How important is that part of Manitoba's new subsidies that the Manitoba's new subsidisation plan also includes wage increases for childcare workers?

COLLEEN LUSSIER: It is so important, I think if the pandemic has taught us anything, is that child care is critical to our economic recovery. So being able to say, hey, we're going to offer you 25 dollars, I think, was the wage that was thrown out. It might help retain the staff members that we're losing at an exponential rate.

LL: Well, what are the wages like for early childhood education workers in Manitoba right now?

COLLEEN LUSSIER: Right now in Manitoba. You have to be a qualified early childhood educator with two years post-secondary in the early childhood education programme. And that means you start at a young age between 16 and 18 dollars an hour after two years post-secondary.

LL: Now, we heard Diana talk about her wages that she couldn't live off of her salary. How common is that sentiment in Manitoba?

COLLEEN LUSSIER: It is all too common, unfortunately, which means that people are looking for other opportunities, we're losing quality educators because of the wage.

LL: OK, you have you how many people have you been losing? What kind of rate?

COLLEEN LUSSIER: I'm thankful here that I do have some long term staff who can make it work because of their home lives where they have, you know, a spouse or they have extra help in their home to meet those bills. But in the past month, I have lost four staff members just because of wages.

LL: So why are you sticking with it then?

COLLEEN LUSSIER: Because I believe in child care and I love the quality that we provide. I truly believe that early learning is, you know, pivotal to to childhood development, to having quality early learning. And I've seen it as a mother myself. I have two children who have gone through quality early learning, and they have, you know, got so many amazing skills from it. And I do have some amazing staff members who I get to see every single day, develop all these great qualities within these children here.

LL: Maybe you could give listeners a sense of what goes into a typical workday of an early childhood education worker.

COLLEEN LUSSIER: Yeah, absolutely. So I think a lot of people think it's just babysitting, which it definitely isn't. So these people who work here have to provide programme plans. They have to recognise every single child in their classrooms development level and, you know, provide opportunities to either challenge their level to make them successful. They have to make sure that they're teaching social emotional skills to help these children set on that right path for life. Never mind all the safety regulations. They have to make sure they're meeting every day, as well as their early learning and child care regulations that we have here in Manitoba. So it's a heavy load that these these people carry every single day.

LL: Are they long hours and intense hours?

COLLEEN LUSSIER: It's 40. Well, it depends on the centre that you work at. But here at my centre, we do provide full time work for most people. So, I mean, it's a 40 hour work week, but as soon as they start their go, go, go. You know, you might have four babies that are crying all at once and you have to figure out who needs what and why they need that. Or, you know, you have 16 children in one classroom and then you have one child who's struggling. So you got to figure out that balance of how to make sure that you're attentive to everybody and everybody's needs. It's a very, very demanding job, but so rewarding, which I'm so thankful that we do have the quality educators here at the YMCA who do stick with it, because without them, it wouldn't be possible to run this centre.

LL: And yet, as you said, you're having trouble retaining people. Most child care workers are women. A lot of them are parents themselves. Some leave because those wages are low and childcare costs are high. I'm wondering if you think the increase in wage will actually make a big dent in allowing women to stay in the workforce.

COLLEEN LUSSIER: Absolutely, I think increasing the wage will help with that staff retention and again, people aren't leaving the field because they don't like it. These people who are in the childcare field right now are in it because they love it. But unfortunately, love doesn't pay the bills. So they need to make sure that they are, you know, economically feasible and being able to pay their own bills and make their own way. I think the pandemic has shown that, again, child care is essential to economic recovery, but without affordable child care, it cuts our workforce in half. We know historically women make less than men. So the majority of people who are going to be staying home as women and in childcare alone, we're the largest childcare provider in Manitoba and actually Canada. So, you know, the majority of our workforce is women. So this this really affects that and being able to have women back in the workforce and making sure that we're on the path to economic recovery.

LL: Well, thank you for giving us the view from Manitoba.

COLLEEN LUSSIER: No problem. Have a great day,

LL: Colleen Lussier is the director of Building Blocks on Balmoral, a YWCA run day-care Centre in Winnipeg. Now, listening in to this has been Susan Prentice. She's a Duff Roblan professor of government at the University of Manitoba, where she studies child care policy. She's also a researcher with the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives. Susan, good morning.

SUSAN PRENTICE: Good morning.

LL: What was your reaction when you learnt that your home province of Manitoba had signed on to the federal child care plan?

SUSAN PRENTICE: I would say it was surprise, delight, we had anticipated that Manitoba would be one of the holdout provinces and to be defined as early as we did was great news for our province.

LL: Why did you think Manitoba was going to be a holdout?

SUSAN PRENTICE: Well, it's a is a conservative government led by [unintelligible], and they've historically not been particularly friendly to child care or even more so to the federal government. So most observers were thinking that would be one of the real laggards to sign. But it looks like that's not going to be Alberta and Ontario who are the slowest.

LL: Now, the average cost of child care in Manitoba is already one of the lowest in the country is just ahead is just ahead of Quebec. So why is this still significant for Manitobans?

SUSAN PRENTICE: Well, there's a couple of ways to tackle that. The the the fees are one of the most visible features of this new plan. So, you know that mum and Brampton, who talked about paying about 20,000 dollars a year for child care, you know, is desperate to see her costs go down. But as Colleen spoke about, we also have a crisis with the workforce. There's even a third aspect, which is that there just aren't enough childcare spaces to be used by families who need them. So all of these dimensions, quality, affordability and access are going to be tackled by the federal dollars that are coming to provinces. So it's going to really do a lot to restructure the policy architecture for child care.

LL: And in Manitoba, what kind of difference does it make to those who might be living in poverty as opposed to those who are middle class?

SUSAN PRENTICE: Well, Manitoba's fees are the second lowest in Canada outside of Quebec. And typically, you know, other parents in Canada might look at Manitoba with envy. If you have an infant in child care in Manitoba, you'll pay about seven and a half thousand dollars a year. And that looks pretty good when you're paying 20000 dollars a year. But if you're a low income parent who needs a childcare subsidy because your income is low, Manitoba's subsidy system is very restrictive. You'd prefer to be a low income parent in Toronto or Vancouver, where the subsidy system is more generous than you would pay less. So affordability is very complicated. The daily fee is only one aspect of it. Even parents who might see their fees at ten dollars a day. For some families, they'll still be paying a very considerable chunk of of household annual income. So even at ten dollars a day, there will be parents who find that unaffordable. So another layering of the affordability problem will be the issue of very low income subsidies.

LL: Now, we're now expecting a federal election to be called within a few days. How important do you think this will be as an election issue?

SUSAN PRENTICE: Well, I imagine it's going to be very important. It's one of the issues that really separates the conservative party of Canada's vision from the other parties, the other players. Public opinion polling shows us that child care is massively popular. A big Angus Reid poll last year found pretty close to nine out of 10 Canadians wants to see accessible, affordable child care. And there are big gender gaps because classically, this is one of those issues where many women and men separate on their political views. So I imagine it's going to be a a high profile and highly debated issue. Most people will not forget. I think that the very first act former Prime Minister Stephen Harper did when he got into office in 2005 was to cancel the last attempt at building bilateral childcare deals. So I think it's going to be a hot button issue.

LL: That idea of bilateral deals that we're seeing signed that make it different and every province and territory. Are there pitfalls to that kind of an approach?

SUSAN PRENTICE: There are, and I'm not a big fan of them. It's not the way we try to build national equity or parity across provinces. It's certainly not the way we think about other services like like health care, for example. And in the budget that the Liberals released this spring, in addition to talking about the spending, they also talked about bringing in national legislation this fall. I imagine that timeline has changed. The problem is that in the moment it seems like bilateral deals are all we've got, given federalism and the division of power and the fact that, like other social services, child care is a provincial responsibility. I think that this is an interim step and I would hope for a more permanent and enduring mechanism soon.

LL: All right. Well, with that then, I want to play you some tape from Alberta Premier Jason Kenney. That province, as we know, has not yet reached a deal with the federal government.

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So our request to the federal government is, give us the flexibility to respect parental choice when it comes to child care. Don't tell us there's only one way or the highway. And that way for them is is, you know, eight to four urban union run day-care centres that only addresses the needs of about 20 percent. So we don't think that's good enough, we're more ambitious to support all parental choices.

LL: Well, why shouldn't provincial governments get more flexibility in how to spend the dollars?

SUSAN PRENTICE: Well, every deal I've seen does have quite a lot of flexibility. And each province has produced an individual plan that does respond to their their local needs and local realities. I mean, Premier Kenney is wrong when he says this plan is only eight to four. It's very clear the federal government is aware that about one in four Canadian workers has non-standard hours, works, evenings or shifts or weekends. Manitoba's deals, for example, explicitly talks about the importance of flexible extended hours child care and the fact that there's not much child care and that most of it is found in cities is in fact a problem that needs to be solved. Researchers use the language of child care deserts borrowing from the food security folks. There are many, many Canadians who live in neighbourhoods, regions or municipalities where there just is no child care. So, you know, there's expensive expansion plans built into the bilateral deals. Manitoba wants to grow about 22000 more licenced childcare spaces, and those will be a mix of centre based and homes, large and small, offering a variety of programmes. And in Manitoba, I would say less than one in 20 childcare centres is union run. So there is plenty of flexibility. And the premier is just, I think, grandstanding a bit when he talks about parental choice.

LL: We've got under 30 seconds left. How how how do you see this playing out during the election? I know that's a big question for a little bit of time.

SUSAN PRENTICE: Well, I think that's very clear from the pandemic, that the fantasy that childcare is not a national issue, that it's not a political issue, that it could be left to private families is permanently gone. And I think that Canadians will be demanding effective solutions. This is going to mean those holdout provinces are going to be under enormous pressure to sign deals. And I think that we'll be seeing this as a major issue on the campaign trail.

LL: Thank you very much for your time.

SUSAN PRENTICE: Thank you.

LL: Susan Prentice is a professor of sociology at the University of Manitoba. Well, the CBC News is coming up next. And then:

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we at the start of the Delta driven Fourth Way. The trajectory will depend on ongoing increase in fully vaccinated coverage and the timing, pace and extent of reopening.

LL: We've endured three waves of covid-19 in this country. And here comes number four. Globe and Mail health columnist Andre Picard will be here in six minutes to talk about rising case counts and rolling back restrictions. I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to The Current.

André Picard on what a fourth wave of COVID-19 might look like

Guest: Andre Picard

LL: Hello, I'm Laura Lynch, and you're listening to The Current. Still to come: In a world already feeling the devastating effects of global warming, two scientists want us to focus on the things we can still save from climate change. We'll revisit Matt Galloway conversation with Ayana Elizabeth Johnson and Katharine Wilkinson in 30 minutes. But first, what the pandemic of the unvaccinated will look like in Canada.

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LL: It is summer and you might be soaking up the sun on a restaurant patio, maybe not wearing a mask, taking advantage of a lull in the covid-19 pandemic. But experts have already declared that Canada is at the beginning of a fourth wave. It's driven by the Delta variant and circulating mostly amongst the unvaccinated, which can include children under 12 who are heading back to school this fall. And many provinces aren't making vaccines mandatory for eligible kids and teachers.

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The government has made a decision in the context of mandating vaccines, and we're not going to do that while respecting choices individuals will make. But at the same time, we can be strong advocates for vaccines as a safe way to reduce risk and to allow for a more normal return to class and to be quite frank, a more a more normal September and fall and beyond.

LL: That was Ontario's Education Minister, Stephen Lecca. Throw each wave. André Picard has been guiding us through the pandemic. He's a health reporter and a columnist with the Globe and Mail. Good morning, Andre.

ANDRE PICARD: Good morning.

LL: What do you make of Stephen Leches position on not making covid-19 vaccines mandatory for those who qualify in a school setting?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think governments all over the world are struggling with this how to make, you know, did things have to be mandatory? Can they be voluntary? But I think there's no question we have to really focus on that demographic of young people there who's at risk right now. And we have to figure out how to protect them.

LL: And what's the best bet for that? Is it getting the vaccine to them?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, we know that and we've known this since day one of the pandemic. The best way to protect people is to have the least virus circulating in the community around you. In the way to do that is to get as many eligible people possible vaccinated. So I don't think the excuse that Ontario is using is a good one. I think they have to have mandates. But I understand politically why they're hesitant to do it.

LL: And what is known about how the Delta variant is affecting children and teens?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, what we know is it spreads much more rapidly. So that applies to everyone. And then that's happening in a context where we have a lot of adults vaccinated. Canada has a very high vaccination rate. So all the attention now is on children and it should be there. They're at risk because they're the the huge unvaccinated group in society. So we have to figure a way to to protect them.

LL: Now, California is about to become the first state in the U.S. to require all teachers and school staff to get vaccinated or to undergo weekly covid-19 testing at schools. Do you think we could see more pressure on governments to take those kinds of hybrid measures versus outright mandatory vaccines?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think there's tremendous pressure. The public wants this. They want vaccine mandates. We have an unusual position where we have all these professional groups, doctors and nurses, some teachers groups coming out saying, yes, we have to have mandatory vaccination. The only reluctant group in this seems to be some politicians, some government. So I think it's almost going to have to happen because of public pressure.

LL: And what's the reluctance on the part of the politicians then?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think they're worried about you know, there's about there's a base of people who are opposed to anything mandatory. You know, there's all the rhetoric about freedom and rights, etc. and people do have rights. I always stress that, that you have the right to refuse vaccination. But there's going to be consequences to that. You're not going to be able to do some things in society. And that's going to include not being able to do some jobs, like being a teacher or a nurse or a physician during a pandemic. Sorry, if you want to exercise your right to refuse vaccination, then you can't do those jobs. And we we have to be clear about that distinction.

LL: Now, let's move on to the university setting them, because we're seeing more and more Ontario universities like the University of Toronto, Ottawa, Western and Gulf announce they're making vaccines mandatory for anyone on campus. What's your take on that?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think that's a good move. People have been pushing for that. But we have to be clear, are vaccines actually mandatory on these campuses? The rules are are very different everywhere. A lot of schools are just saying, well, we you need a personal attestation, so. Oh, yes, I'm vaccinated. You don't have to provide any proof. It's not clear what kind of monitoring or policing is going to happen. So I think there's a again, there's a lot of rhetoric there, but it's going to be interesting to see how it works if people are actually going to be if their status is going to be verified and their people are going to be protected.

LL: All right. Let's talk about long covid always a very scary prospect for people, but there's been some really scary accounts of young people getting long covid recently. Is that something to be concerned about?

ANDRE PICARD: I think it's been a concern all along. And we're learning more and more about this condition. And it's very vague. You know, people have a whole constellation of symptoms. We don't know. How long they'll last. We're hearing scary stuff, we're hearing people say this is the polio of our generation, that we're going to see young people with symptoms for many, many years to come after the pandemic is over. And some of the some of the research, we don't have really good numbers, unfortunately, but we're seeing studies showing 10 to 30 percent of people are especially young people who are infected, having longer term symptoms. And that that's really scary. And even scarier is even kids with mild symptoms can develop pretty severe lasting problems. And I'm not sure what we can do about that right now, but it is frightening.

LL: Can you sort of clear up some confusion? Is it that more children are getting long covid, or is it just because of the unvaccinated nature that there are just more children getting covid, therefore those numbers go up?

ANDRE PICARD: Yeah, I don't think we don't think that there's more kids getting long covid was just paying a lot more attention to children. We're also having the pandemics going on longer. So we're seeing people that are developing symptoms months later that we hadn't realised. And then thirdly, we're just paying a lot more attention to this because, as you know, kids don't tend to get as sick with the illness, but they seem to still have the same percentage of lasting consequences. So there's that mix of those three things.

LL: Now, Obama has been talking about lifting its covid-19 restrictions. There's been a lot of criticism around this messaging to start treating covid like 19, like the flu and other respiratory pandemics. What are you thinking about how differently each province is approaching this wave of hope at 19?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, that's been a frustration since day one. It makes the public confused. Why is this one thing happened in B.C. and another in Alberta, another in Ontario, so that it creates that confusion? We're almost a living laboratory, so it's interesting in that way. But I think what we're seeing is, again, a reminder of things that have happened throughout the pandemic is that if you're impatient, if you rush this, the the virus takes advantage. And I think we're seeing that in Alberta especially, we've seen the numbers spike up in recent days. And that was unfortunately entirely predictable. When you drop any measures, any public health measures than the the virus takes advantage.

LL: It also may suggest that this still is to some degree, a matter of politics. It looks like we have an election on the horizon. I'm wondering, have you have you got concerns about that as Canada enters a fourth wave?

ANDRE PICARD: I think we should be very concerned about an election because it just politicises this debate. Canada has benefited from a fair bit of cooperation and solidarity on this, and it's served us well. And I really I fear that we'll get more of a U.S. sociopolitical environment where, you know, if you're conservative, you don't want any measures. And if you're liberal, you want some. And if you're the NDP, you want more. If that's how we start attacking the pandemic, it will never finish because it's going to be too politicised. Now, medicine, health care is always political, but we have to avoid it being partisan, political, and that's very important.

LL: So do you think we'll see political leaders use things like covid restrictions in the coming weeks?

ANDRE PICARD: Unfortunately, I think we definitely will. I think there's no question the reason the liberals are going to the polls is because they see an opportunity. They see this growing number of vaccinated people being angry at the unvaccinated and demanding things like vaccine passports and certificates and mandates. And they're going to take advantage of that to to put their opponents on the spot because conservative politicians tend to be less keen on violating these freedoms. So I think that's going to be a big, big point of the debate and it's going to be harmful to the general public, unfortunately.

LL: What about the risks to public health? Running running a campaign during the fourth wave?

ANDRE PICARD: I think we've seen from other jurisdictions that those are actually minimal. Politicians have adjusted to how they campaign, etc., how we vote. That hasn't been a problem. Most places in the world. It's more the impact on how people respond. And we don't want people seeing, you know, wearing the button. I vote for this party, therefore I'm unvaccinated that which is kind of what we saw in the U.S. and that's definitely what we don't want.

LL: Now, I think people were starting to exhale. They were feeling better about things. And now the prospect of the fourth way. What would you say is your biggest concern as people hoped we were coming to the end of the pandemic?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think, you know, there is a fourth wave, but the wave is not going to be as high as previous ones. We had yesterday, just over 2000 cases across Canada were a far cry from a year ago when we had 10000 cases a day. So, yes, the fourth wave is frightening. Yes, we should be worried about children right now, but things are much, much better. We have to retain that that long view that, you know, this a reminder that. This is a marathon and the marathon, we're going a lot better at the end of the the race because of vaccinations, I think people's overall should be very hopeful that things are looking good. But we really have to focus on those individual challenges. And to me, the fall is all about protecting kids.

LL: All seeing all knowing. Andre Picard, do you expect do you expect this to be the last wave here in Canada?

ANDRE PICARD: I think we're going to continue to have ripples for many, many years. This is going to become a more endemic illness. We're going to have new variants. But if the wave gets a lot smaller each time, that that's great. That's progress. That's what we want to aim for.

LL: Andre, thanks once again for helping us out here. Thanks, Laura. Andre. The car is a health reporter and columnist with The Globe and Mail. I'm Laura Lynch, and you're listening to The Current.

Olympics gives sick boost to women's skateboarding

Guest: Stephanie Battieste

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VOICE 1: Youngest athlete to represent Great Britain in the Olympics, you are seeing her right now, Sky Brown. She certainly skates with a smile.

VOICE 2: Bright Side 360. And here's where she fallen on both of her runs so far. Goes for it again. Makes no mistake. Sky Brown.

VOICE 1: Sky Brown.

VOICE 2: What's up?

LL: I don't know if you saw that, but that was a lot of fun to watch. 13 year old Sky Brown flipping and grinding her way to a bronze medal for Team Great Britain in a brand new event, skateboarding made its debut at the games and it didn't disappoint. In fact, the buzz is still being felt at skate parks here in Canada.

SOUNDCLIP

Hi, my name's Sophia and I'm 14 and we're at Ashbridge the skatepark. I came to the skate park today later than usual to skate because more cooler at this time and to hang with my homies. Skating means a lot to me, actually, if I didn't have my board, I'd be pretty sad, honestly, like if I wasn't scared, I would not have this many friends. I was really intimidated to come because it's just boys. But now I'm like more OK with becoming more like home because there's more girls that are like coming into skateboarding. To me, watching the girls skate inspired me way more because like you can just tell in their facial features and like their expression, how much they love skateboarding and being there for them was like, you know Sky Brown. Sky Brown is like one of my icons, like idols. She's amazing skateboarder. And seeing her, they're like really warm my heart and inspired me way more to skate and like, get into skateboarding more.

LL: That was from Ashbridge's Bay Skate Park in Toronto, and Sofia isn't the only girl obsessed with and I'm going to try to pronounce these right - Olies, kickflips and shuvits. Babes Brigade in Toronto is an all women skate collective launched in 2015 by Stephanie Battieiste in the hopes of creating a more supportive, welcoming environment for girls who skate. It began with weekly meet ups and skate trips, then grew to include lessons. Stephanie Battieste joins me now. Hello.

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: Good morning.

LL: Let's talk about the Olympics first. What did you make of the women's skateboarding competition?

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: It was unbelievable. It was extremely exciting and really cool to see how young the winners were.

LL: Yeah, I know. I mean, how old were you when you started skateboarding?

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: I was 15.

LL: So that by that by those standards, you'd be pretty old compared to women who were competing in Tokyo?

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: Well, definitely. Definitely.

LL: What was your journey into skateboarding like?

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: So I always tell this classic story of how I found like a skateboard in my garage that was given to one of my brothers and it was just in there for years. And then, you know, I was very shy at the time. So, like finding something like that, just kind of picking it up and playing around with it. I was like, OK, this is cool is something I can do on my own. And also, I didn't know any anybody else really boys or girls that were skating at the time.

LL: So where were you doing it? Just sort of around the neighbourhood.

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: Yeah. And like in my driveway, I stayed pretty close by. There weren't any skate park near me either, so I didn't have that opportunity.

LL: And so over time, what did it come to mean to you?

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: So, yeah, became but I like to say basically became addicted to it, the more I did it, the more fun it was, very freeing type of feeling, you know. So it started with me skating as a young teenager, moving downtown when I was around 21. Now I have access to other skate park, so I got to do it a lot more. I met a bunch of friends who became with the community, so it all kind of like snowballed from there.

LL: Were you often the only girl in the skate park?

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: Yeah, for sure, especially this is so this about 21 so operational age, exactly, but, you know, it's almost 15 years ago and yeah, I would like randomly see kind of girls pass through. But, you know, unless we stop each other, I might not see her again. So it's still very much like me a lot at the time.

LL: And how is that for you? Was it intimidating?

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: So the thing about why I do what I do as well is because I grew up with three brothers and I was always comfortable around guys, right. But what held me back a little bit when I was younger was that I was so shy, but I definitely didn't feel like I could still go. But I wanted to, like, connect with more girls that did skate because, yeah, it's like you want to see more girls like yourself, more people like yourselves doing it.

LL: And that's kind of what led you to launching Babes Brigade in 2015.

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: Yeah, I wanted to just have a way for me to connect with other girls that skate that simple as that.

LL: And so tell me what you were trying to do exactly with Babes Brigade. Just get me get more young women and girls into the sport.

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: Absolutely. So I started as like a Facebook group, and then I was just throw it out there like, hey, I'm going to be at the skate park today. So it was more like I kind of like a safe space. So like other girls that wanted to come out would know that I'd be there and I would host meet ups and stuff like that. So that's kind of how the whole thing started. Now it's skate lessons to anybody five up.

LL: And are you getting requests for lessons from various age groups and backgrounds?

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: Big time. And like what I'm almost surprised by, but a lot of really young girls. So I request to teach as young as four and sometimes I do depending. But like from four to late fifties.

LL: Wow. Four.

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: Yeah.

LL: And that that comes with parental approval does it.

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: Yes, absolutely.

LL: And the other end of the spectrum, people in their 50s.

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: Yes, exactly. And you know what the cool part is, is like sometimes I'll teach kids with their parents and that could be a mom or a dad or brothers and sisters like. It's really awesome.

LL: You telling me that I could learn how to skateboard at my age.

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: It's never too late.

LL: I'm wondering what impact you see young skaters like Razali all year assuming having on the sport and girls interested in taking up skateboarding.

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: Yeah, it's I mean, it's super inspiring. And I think that's like the big thing I didn't have because, like, back when I was a kid, there was no like, you know, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube. Now you have easy access to stuff like that where you can view other girls that are doing it. And it's really super inspiring. And that's a big part of what I do, too, is just showcasing that there are all these different girls in Canada, Toronto, all around the world that are doing it. So absolutely. I think that's why I'm getting so many of the younger kids requesting from their parents who are awesome and put them into the classes and they're like supportive of it.

LL: Do you have a sense of how your students were, how much attention they were paying to the Olympics?

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: Oh, yeah. I had some students definitely that were telling me that they were watching the Olympics and how awesome it is. And like, yes, Highbrows definitely a fan favourite, like a lot of my students mentioned very specifically. I've kind of got to watch her develop, too, over the years, like because she was skating into, I don't know, I think five or something. So, yeah, it's definitely inspiring.

LL: Have you got any Sky Browns in your group?

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: I'm not in my group yet because was focus on like beginner lessons. But there's some girls around the city that are really, really good. Favourite one that like a name that most people would know in the Toronto community because she's extremely good and competing. And it's yeah, it's really inspiring to a lot of people, not just kids.

LL: The Canadians sent skateboarders to the Olympics, did they?

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: Yes, yeah, yeah, Annie [unintelligible] she's from, I don't want to say it wrong, but I'm pretty sure Montreal and she went there for Canada.

LL: All right. So this is a live thing for four young girls to aspire to at the end of all this, you started this regarded as a safe place for girls to skate. But can you reflect a little more about what it is about skate parks that make them intimidating to girls and women?

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: Yeah, so it's definitely just like one unknown territory, you know, it's very unfamiliar to you, it's the feeling like you're not good enough to be there. That's common one that I hear, like I'm just learning. I don't want to be in anyone's way. And there's definitely ways to get around that. And then the, you know, male dominated aspect of that as well. It's just like, OK, I'm uncomfortable in my own skin right now. I don't know if I know how to skate properly. I don't want to be judged. And hey, I'm the only girl here. So definitely there's like multiple factors.

LL: OK, so you're the wise one. What advice would you give to girls who are feeling intimidated or discouraged to to go take it up?

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: Yeah, I mean, I think it's the same as anything else. It's like you still have to kind of push through and find that confidence in yourself. I think a lot of people tell themselves things that aren't necessarily true, you know, and that's what comes from the anxiety behind it. So when you're telling yourself I'm not good enough, other people are going to judge me, I can tell you that nobody's actually watching you, most likely, you know what I mean? Like, it's a pretty supportive community. And so that's stuff that we tell ourselves in our heads. And those are roadblocks that you'll have in regards to anything you do. So I think at the end of the day, it comes down to being confident and knowing that you belong there.

LL: So tell me what it looks like then in the skateboard parks these days. I mean, has it become more inclusive, more welcoming to women of colour and queer people over the last few years?

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: Yeah, so I found that, like when I started this around six years ago, funny enough, there were other people, like all around the world that were doing similar things. So now there's more Meetup and groups like My Own and there's definitely you'll see more girls at the park when now I'll see like a group of friends that like me, four or five different like girls or women that are at the park already. And if they don't need me to do a meet up, they, you know, created that on their own. And so, yeah, absolutely. That supports they're now more than ever for sure.

LL: So is there anything in your mind that still needs to change?

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: Well, I mean, I'm liking that there's more exposure now for women that are like getting sponsors. So I think more companies sponsoring more women, more ski shops doing the same thing, creating like the same prise money when there's competitions, because that money is what allows these girls to go and compete at other competitions where historically the men make a lot more money off of it than women. That's not fair at all. I think there should be more women working for these big companies and magazines and stuff like that. More photographers that are females should be getting published in the skate magazine. So, yeah, there's definitely a lot of things that can change.

LL: Ah, so can you actually make a living as a skateboarder?

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: Well, I mean, I make a living doing what I'm doing giving lessons, which is awesome, but that is kind of like part of it, too, with it being in the Olympics, as I'm starting to see now that there are more opportunities for you to get sponsored and get paid sponsorships and colabs. And, you know, there's definitely more of that kind of stuff happening. So, yeah, I mean, it's like in skateboarding in general, it's very hard to become a pro. Like, that's not it just happens for everyone, but it can happen one hundred percent for sure.

LL: All right, Stephanie, thanks for skateboarding us through all of this. I really appreciate your time.

STEPHANIE BATTIESTE: My pleasure.

LL: Stephanie Battieste is the founder of Babes Brigade. Well, coming up after your regional update,

SOUNDCLIP

We owe a lot to these young people who are bringing this moral clarity and that ability to see right and wrong and to see there are issues on which we can't compromise. You can't negotiate with carbon dioxide. You just have to stop emitting it.

LL: Well, there's no question about it. The climate is in crisis, but some humans are rising to the occasion. In 90 seconds, we'll revisit Matt Galloway conversation with Ayana Elizabeth Johnson and Katharine Wilkinson about activism, science and poetry in the face of climate change. I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to The Current.

Women fighting climate crisis tell their stories

Guests: Ayana Elizabeth Johnson, Katharine Wilkinson

LL: I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

My heart is moved by all I cannot save. So much has been destroyed. I have to cast my lot with those who age after age, perversely, with no extraordinary power, reconstitute the world.

LL: Those words were written by the late American poet and feminist, Adrienne Rich. And it was those words that inspired two climate scientists to think about what they can still save and put it all together in a book. All We Can Save -- Truth, Courage and Solutions for the Climate Crisis was co-edited by Ayana Elizabeth Johnson and Katharine Wilkinson. This is a collection of essays, poems and stories written by women at the forefront of the climate change movement. Matt Galloway spoke with Ayana Elizabeth Johnson and Katharine Wilkinson last year.

MG: Good morning to you both.

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: Good morning.

KATHARINE WILKINSON: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Tell me a little bit about that excerpt that we heard from Adrienne Rich. What was it in reading that that was so inspiring to you?

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: Yeah, those words actually often bring tears to my eyes when we we consider the climate movement and how we talk about climate. The climate crisis and climate solutions. We often miss the opportunity to be both honest about how dire the scientific projections are. And at the same time, embrace it's still possible. And that's what we were trying to capture in the title. And that's why this stanza from Adrienne Rich's poem called Natural Resources really captured our attention, because how do you name a book change that makes you will actually want to pick it up? That's not just like lies about hope. Right. Like, we didn't want to give people false hope, but we did want to offer possibility and focus on solutions.

MG: Lies about hope. That's really interesting, Katharine, because I think people are looking for hope because the news is so heavy and the news, particularly around the climate and a changing climate, can just destroy you. So tell me more about, you know, avoiding lies, about hope.

KATHARINE WILKINSON: I will quote Ayana, who sometimes has expletive hope. Show me the plan. And, you know, I think that in a lot of ways is the pivot, which is hope is often interpreted as something passive, something that is sort of well, I don't really want to solve this sad or angry or anxious about what's going on. Could somebody make me feel better about things? And, you know, I think the reality is that the only way that we will feel better about things is to get to work on building a better world. Working towards that possibility that Ayanna was talking about. And so we were really deliberate. And the subtitle of the book about using the word courage, because if your eyes are open to what's happening on this planet, I was just looking at images of the fire that broke out on Mount Kilimanjaro. And it will absolutely break your heart. And the question is, if your heart's broken, does that become fuel to stand up and play your part in this great work of transformation? That is really the task for humanity this decade and and beyond.

MG: This is a collection, as I said, of essays and poems and stories written by women. In the introduction, you say that the climate crisis is not gender neutral. Katharine, what did you mean by that?

KATHARINE WILKINSON: It's helpful, I think, think about the Pentagon called climate change a threat multiplier. We might think about climate change as a vulnerability or an injustice multiplier. So that means that wherever we've got injustice baked into the current system, climate change is going to kind of heighten those inequities. And we live in a gender unequal society. We live in a society that is unequal along lines of race, Global north, Global south. So all of these areas where we see disparity of kind of intensity, of impacts from climate change and also disparity in ability to cope and to sort of bounce back, say, when extreme weather events hit. But oftentimes the story just isn't fair. You know, for example, we know that that when NGOs are more likely to be injured or killed in a natural disaster, that climate impacts like about precipitate early marriage. And we even see in data now a tie between climate impacts and sexual violence and sex trafficking. But it's not just a story about victims. And this is something that I've really learnt a lot from Mary Robinson, former president of Ireland. But when you are closer to the site of impact of the problem, you are Nessa's more equipped to know what the solution should be. And we see women and girls stepping up all over the world at the local level to U.N. climate negotiate and everything in between to lead us forward in a way that centres care and community and compassion and. Do you really think that the climate crisis is a leadership crisis and what we've got to do is transform society decades? We need a transformational leadership and we need a full diversity of all of the best of humanity's thinking and doing to come be part of the biggest and strongest team possible. Too often that has not been the case. We've been leaving women and girls and not pioneering folks out of the decision making rooms, out of the critical conversations. And we hope this book will be part of shifting that.

MG: Ayana, I could hear you in the background.

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: Yeah, I'm just like mhmm, mhmm and I think, you know, in co-authring the first essay in the book with Katharine, the Begin, we really did a bunch of research into the social science around what Katharine's describing, that we we know, for example, that when women have an equal seat at the table in decision making, in policy, that the outcomes for nature are better, that we have stronger environmental laws, that there are more strongly enforced. And so, you know, this is not about women only, but it's about making sure that women have equal representation as we're deciding the future of life on Earth. That is sort of the way we open the book. And in particular, pointing out a woman who's who had been lost to history, Eunice Newton Foote, who is the scientist who discovered that carbon dioxide would lead to planetary warming. And she discovered this in 1856. Like Eunice tried to warn us, right. And she discovered this years before Irish physicist John Tyndall made a similar discovery in more detail and had a whole lab and university behind him. And she just made this discovery in her backyard.

MG: What does it tell you that to your point, her contributions to this have been lost in history, but there are a lot of people who will have never heard her name.

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: Yeah, we should have a Eunice Newton Foote Day. It's so typical, right? Like, no one is surprised when we say, like, a woman actually discovered this first, but like yeah that tracks with like, oh, we disregard the contributions of women in a lot of Western societies. So I think if we can just skip the part where we all need to fight about who gets credit and who came up with the idea. And it's less about ego and it's more about collaboration and collectivism and healing and everyone bringing their best to the table. That's the vibe that we're trying to bring to this concept of climate feminism.

MG: Let's talk about who's at the table. One of my favourite essays in this collection is Collards Are Just As Good as Kale, which is a statement of fact, by the way. Heather McTeer Toney, talks about the history of black environmentalism. Have a listen to some of what she wrote. This is a reading from your audio book.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Caring about climate change is not a boujie Black thing. Who exactly do you think is on the front lines every single day fighting to keep our communities safe from industries, polluters and those seeking to harm our kids? We live in pollution, play around it, work for it and pray against it. Hell, we even sing about it. Black women are every day environmentalists. We are climate leaders. We just don't get the headlines too often.

MG: Ayana Johnson, there's a lot in there, that idea of climate change not being a boujie Black thing. Why don't we hear more black voices in this climate fight?

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: Racism. It was a trick question?

MG: It's as simple as that?

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: Yea, I mean, we just don't respect the expertise of people who don't sort of like, look and sound a certain way. And so when Heather McTeer Toney, was writing that essay, when we were working with her, it was the same time when I was learning about the polling from Yale and George Mason universities that actually quantify what she's talking up, that people of colour are statistically significantly more concerned about climate. We know from that polling that forty nine percent of white people in the US are concerned about climate change, compared to 57 percent of black people and 69 percent a lot less people. So when we when we picture the stereotypical environmentalist as like a white dude with a Patagonia jacket and a Prius hiking or a woman who's obsessed about reducing waste and plastic. And as Viðga like, we're missing the millions and millions and millions of people who already care and many of whom are already contributing. And if we can lift this burden of racism off of people and white supremacy and mass incarceration and state violence, that just imagine how much more these people who already care could be contributing to solutions, could be focussing on like I already care and this is what I'm good at. And so, like, I'm bringing that to this work. And that's why we have to look at these problems as intertwined because that that excerpt you just shared from Heather. Peace just reminds me that the question that comes to mind so often is like, who are we saving the planet for?

MG: Can you relate to that idea of being overlooked? Your experience being overlooked as a black woman scientist?

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: No, but like that is by design. I have seen this happen for generations to women, to people of colour, especially to women of colour. And I just like that's just not something I will put up with. So it is, if I have not been overlooked, that is like a deliberate effort on my part to make sure that I am telling my own story. This is why I write so much, because we have to write ourselves into history, because no one is going to do it for us to us.

KATHARINE WILKINSON: To us this is really about how successful or not can we be as a movement. So one of the things that Ayana and I are working on is a new non-profit called the All We Can Save Project. We know that historically there's been a real disparity in environmental philanthropy. Most of it has gone to or is led by white men. That just simply won't do. We've got really transformational leadership. A lot of it being led by black women, indigenous women, other women of colour. And they need the money to do the work. And so that's one of the things that that we're gonna be working on with this project.

MG: It leads to this is the theme that runs right through the book, is this idea of intersectionality. What is that, in the context of what you're talking about, I mean, Ayana you can pick this up, what does that word mean in the context of climate change?

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: It means we live in a world where everything is connected and if we try to solve climate change as if it's a purely engineering problem, then we will fail to solve the problem because we will be solving a problem that is much simpler than the problem that actually exists, because people live in the world and people are affected by the impacts of climate change. And as we've been discussing, like bringing the full diversity of humanity and full brainpower to solutions is what we need. And so, you know, one of the examples that is has been front of mind for me, given that we are in the throes of this pandemic, is thinking about how that affects different people so differently and how that is intertwined, twined with climate change. When we think about where power plants are located in communities of colour, in poor communities, these are people who have for decades been exposed to the air pollution associated with burning fossil fuels and that weakens your respiratory system. That is bad for your heart to be breathing in all of that dirty air. And that is putting people at a much higher risk for extreme forms of COVID. And so to sort of like ignore these things means that we won't actually solve the problems. We won't solve the public health problems. We won't solve the planetary climate problems.

MG: What sort of resistance do you face in that? It was interesting that the premier of Alberta Province here in Canada, Jason Kenney, called the idea of intersectionality recently a kooky academic theory. Is there a way that you can bring those sort of people into the tent? And when you talk about that and when you talk about, you know, the connections, do you resistance from people who say, well, sure, that sounds interesting in theory, but that's not how it works in real life.

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: Yeah, I'm curious to hear what Katharine says on this, but my first instinct is to say everyday I wake up as a scientist, as a person who cares deeply about the future of the planet, as a policy nerd, as a woman, as a black person, as a daughter. Like that's just who I am every morning. And to say that, like, I only get to be one of those things at a time and that none of those parts of who I am should ever intersect is just counter-productive because we were able to bring our full humanity to the problem. We're able to come up with different solutions. The fact that I'm the daughter of a Jamaican immigrant means that my work on ocean policy in the Caribbean is more culturally informed. Why would I want to ignore that? It's an asset, not a liability. If we think of our diversity and our personal experiences as ways to inform problem-solving, then of course we want to bring everything we know when we're controlling.

KATHARINE WILKINSON: Yeah, I'll just add it's a profound kind of privilege to think that intersectionality is not a thing, because that just means that you've never encountered it. And it's a really frustrating example of a failure to listen. And that's one of the themes that runs really profoundly through through this book, is the importance of listening to those who are bearing the brunt of fossil fuel extraction and production today, who are bearing the brunt of climate impacts. We simply will not get to the best answers by huddling up with people who have had exactly the same experiences that we have had.

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: I was just gonna point out Maggie Thomas's essay, which is called The Politics of Policy, which is all about the role of listing and making policy. And she was a climate adviser to Governor Jay Inslee's can presidential campaign, which was all about climate. She then went on to be the climate adviser for Senator Elizabeth Warren's campaign for president and is now advising the Biden campaign on their climate policy and this idea of how are we listening to the impacted communities as we design policies that are designed to help solve these problems, like of course, we want to go to Detroit and hear like what's actually going on? Like what do you actually need? What does the problem feel like to you? How do we solve this?

MG: You also have to bring people in. And Emily Atkin is a journalist. She's the author of the climate newsletter, Heated. And in her essay, she writes about the idea of preaching to the converted. Have a listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: For years, I assumed that educating people who are already interested in climate change would just be preaching to the choir, but my reporting career has taught me that's not true. Most people who are interested in climate change just don't yet have the tools to talk about it confidently. The choir is there. They want to sing, but they don't know the words.

MG: Ayana Johnson, do you worry that your work is preaching to the converted?

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: No, I don't worry about it at all. I mean, I think a lot of, I've got plenty of worries. That's not one of them. I guess I would say I think the opportunity here is to bring the vast majority of people who are concerned about climate but haven't yet figured out what role they can play. And I think that's what Emily's talking about when she just uses this metaphor of the choir needing to learn how to sing, meaning to learn the notes. Right. Because what we can each contribute is very different from just like feeling like you understand the situation and don't have any agency. And so we see this book. We see the 41 essays in the book, each as a different door, as an example of a way that you can walk in and participate in the climate work that needs doing. And so the first essay in the book is called Calling In. It is specifically a welcome by a teenage climate activist saying what we need is not thousands of people being perfect climate activists, but millions of people doing the best they can. And that's the message that we really want to reach people with, because just caring and being worried is not enough at this point.

MG: It's not just essays. I mean, this is also a book that includes poetry. And I wanted to listen to a poem by Terry T.Williams.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Soul and soil are not separate. Neither are wind and spirit, nor water and tears. We are eroding and evolving at once, like the Red Rock landscape before me. Our grief is our love. Our love will be our undoing as we quietly disengage from the collective madness of the patriarchal mind that says aggression is the way forward.

MG: Katharine Wilkinson, why did you want to include poetry in the book? And how does poetry allow you to address this issue in a way that perhaps the essays don't?

KATHARINE WILKINSON: My sort of earliest environmental awakenings were in tangled web poetry when I was in high school first reading the work of Mary Oliver, for example, and feeling really transformed by kind of by the access that poetry gives us to deeper understanding that helps us access greater clarity, helps us access our heart, I think. And we didn't originally set out to include poetry in the collection, but it quickly became clear that to kind of make this quilt an accurate reflection of the way women are showing up in this movement, Poetry was going to be a really important piece of that. And it's especially helpful, I think, in a topic that is as heavy as climate change. There's a lot of density and many of these essays and we wanted to give people kind of a space to breathe and to feel whatever they might be feeling and and to know that they're not alone. And I think that's something that poetry gives us a sense of kind of more collective human experience. Emily Acton actually said the other day she got her copy of the book and she cracked it open to her piece, but she ended up reading an Anne Haven McDonell poem that sits right next to her essay. And she said, I just I read it and I read it again and I read it again and I just felt so honoured. That's the kind of conversation that we want to cultivate, a conversation that is more generous, that is more nuance, that allows us to show up as our whole selves, not just our, you know, intellectual policy, engineering, science selves, but also the parts of us that feel that care and that's the kind of like holistic way of of being that we think ultimately leads to more successful social movements.

MG: You mentioned leadership. I want to ask you two quick things. I'd be remiss in the midst of an election that has been unlike any other election, what do you see when it comes to how or if climate change has been addressed in this campaign thus far? There are often these calculations that show this tiny little number in the grand scheme of all the conversations around an election, climate change gets mentioned in this tiny, tiny little number. Katharine, what do you make of how climate change has been addressed or not addressed in this campaign thus far?

KATHARINE WILKINSON: Well, we've seen a lot of progress actually, this campaign season, because we had folks like Jay Inslee and .Elizabeth Warren, you know, pushing the policy, thinking forward, really investing in that. But it's also suggested really in the last two years, because of the youth climate movement, young people are doing a lot of the educating that has been really needed within the movement and beyond it. As the Democratic primaries were unfolding in the U.S., they were bird dogging candidates all over the country, asking them, do you commit to a green new deal pushing, pushing, having these really brilliant kind of viral moments that led to things like CNN hosting a climate town hall, which would have been unthinkable in the 2016 campaign cycle. We've seen more minutes in debates, both in the primaries and our presidential debate dedicated to climate than has ever happened. Is that where the discourse needs to be? Absolutely not. Chris Wallace made the troubling mistake of asking President Trump whether he believed in climate change in that debate. We are way beyond questions about whether climate change is like Santa Claus. Climate change is like gravity. It is a matter of fact and you either understand it or you don't. So there's been a weird tension between progress and then kind of the, you know, the stragglers sort of not coming along with with reality. It's also been really exciting to see the polling of how top of mind climate is, especially for young voters. And I want to know what Ayana is thinking about this as well.

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: We've just finally seen a Race to the Top in terms of climate policy in the US. People are competing for who has the best climate plan, and that is unprecedented in American politics and it is long overdue. And I think, you know, as we've been thinking about this in the presidential race, that's wonderful. But we also need to be thinking about this in our city councils, in Congress. Right. Like every person we vote for, we care about the future of, you know, having a habitable planet, we should be asking and thinking about where do they stand on climate, not do they believe it or not, as Katharine said, but like what is their plan? What is their strategy? What are they going to do to keep us safe? How quickly do they have a plan to ramp down fossil fuels, eliminate greenhouse gas emissions? Push for regenerative practices? All of these things need political leadership and I think we're. Finally, seeing the glimmers of that becoming possible in the US. And I just wanted to say one thing before we wrapped up is to give a shout out to the Canadian contributors to the anthology. Naomi Klein, as well as Leah Stokes, Clement, who writes about the role of finance and investing in climate solutions, as well as Dr. Katharine Hayhoe, a climate scientist. So for those who are listening, who only want to read the writings of Canadians, we've got you covered. There are four brilliant essays.

MG: Just finally, Katharine mentioned the youth leadership and there are a couple of essays by teenage authors in this book. And we've talked in the last 12 months, certainly a bit longer than that, about the role of the youth movement in helping to get kids out on the streets, protesting climate change, but also calling to your point on on politicians to make real change. Where do you think Ayana, that that youth movement goes from here?

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: I mean, I think they just they're relentless and it's amazing. I mean, there's something called the No Fossil Fuel Money pledge where people are asking politicians to refuse to accept campaign donations from the fossil fuel industry and largely due to the youth movement, 2500 politicians in the US have been forced to sign up. And I think, you know, they deserve a ton of credit for putting federal climate policy on the centre stage for doing a sit in in Nancy Pelosi's office last year before she became speaker of the House, when that was about to happen and saying like, oh, you told us climate wasn't one of your priorities. Well, it's about to be. And it worked. We had a select committee on The Current climate crisis release of a huge report, you know, showing the urgency. And we've had, you know, just a whole shift in. You can't get away with not talking about it in the U.S. anymore. So I think we owe a lot to these young people who are bringing this moral clarity to climate work. Who are saying, look, this is my future you're gambling. We can't even vote yet. And you're screwing us over. So please get it together. You have children. You have grandchildren. How are you going to look them in the eye if you don't take this seriously? And that ability to see right and wrong and to see there are issues on which we can't compromise. You can't negotiate with, you know, with carbon dioxide, you just have to stop emitting it. I'm just so grateful for all of the energy and strength that they are bringing to this work.

MG: It's a great pleasure to talk to you both about this. There's a lot in this book, and the range is something that is really powerful as well, just in terms of topics, but also, I mean, poetry is really helpful when you're talking about heavy subjects as well. And it adds a lot to it as well. It's a real pleasure to speak with you both. Thank you.

AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON: Likewise. Thank you.

KATHARINE WILKINSON: Likewise, Matt.

LL: Matt Galloway spoke with Ayana Elizabeth Johnson and Katharine Wilkinson in October last year. And if that conversation made you anxious. You're not alone. Humanity is facing an existential threat -- and the news is full of heatwaves, floods, and wildfires. It can all sometimes add up to what's called by psychologists as 'climate anxiety. It's a feeling of hopelessness, that we'll be talking about next week on the show. We'll also be talking to someone who tries to fight back against it. This is Abbie Richards, who calls herself a climate communicator.

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I understand the doom, but accepting that it's too late or there's nothing we can do is exactly what fossil fuel companies want. Like if it's too late, then why bother even try it? And the thing is, it isn't too late. That's not how the climate works. Climate change isn't just. Zero-Sum game or a switch that you turn on, Iran is like as long as there are still people around. We still have something to fight for.

LL: That was Abbie Richards -- and you'll hear more from her, next week on The Current. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for q. The new Aretha Franklin biopic Respect is one of the most anticipated movies of the summer. Coming up, the film's screenwriter, Tracey Scott Wilson, tells Saroja Coelho about the challenges and responsibility she felt bringing the Queen of Soul's story to the big screen. Earlier in the program, we were talking to young skateboarders about the sport's debut at Tokyo 2020. On the women's side not a single person on the podium in either the street or park events had been born when the first Tony Hawk Pro Skater video game was released. That was in 1999, by the way. But his name and his games still reign supreme in skating culture. If you're a fan, you might remember this tune. It is the unofficial anthem of the Tony Hawk games. 'Superman' by Goldfinger. I'm Laura Lynch. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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[Song]

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