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The Current Transcript for April 29, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

On this January day, my whole soul was in this bringing America together, uniting our people, uniting our nation, and I ask every American to join me in this cause.

MG: Joe Biden has been US president for 100 days. Life in that country is different, in part because he's not Donald Trump, but also because of his agenda in 30 minutes. Look at Biden's America from his attempts at repairing race relations to tackling the pandemic. Also this morning.

SOUNDCLIP

You know, the thing about a shark is he's got lifeless eyes, black eye, dull eye. When he comes at you, he doesn't seem to be living.

MG: For many of us are impressions of sharks as terrifying creatures ready to snatch us from the seas came from the movie Jaws. Valerie Taylor helped shoot those scenes. Since then, the legendary Australian spear, fisher and conservationist has worked to save sharks. She's here in an hour to talk about an extraordinary life on the water. Plus, Murray Sinclair remembers the Canadian legal giant and pioneer of reconciliation, Thomas Berger. But as a new report suggests, long term care homes in Ontario were not prepared for the carnage of covid coming their way. We'll start with a look at a very different take on elder care. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

This couple 'adopted' their elder friend, and now they live as a family

Guests: Karen Cope, Elizabeth Bigras, Marike Finlay

MG: Over a year ago, families across this country watched helplessly as their loved ones and long term and senior care homes were trapped, seniors left in dangerous and deadly living conditions as outbreaks spread. Now, there are signs of accountability for this and for the loss of so many. In Quebec, a coroner's inquest into long term care deaths is underway. And in Ontario, the auditor general released a scathing report yesterday highlighting how unprepared and ill equipped the province's long term care homes were to handle a pandemic throughout this time. Many of you have written to us with your own stories about long term care. This is one of those stories, and it began with this email.

SOUNDCLIP

We've covered not only long term care homes, but also how to stay out of them. We adopted an elder who is now 86 and deaf. Yes, it is work, but also so much richness in sharing our lives with this woman. We kept an elder out of long term care. We adopted her.

MG: That's part of an email from Marika Finlay in Nova Scotia when she and her partner, Karen Cope decided to leave their professor jobs at McGill University and start over Seaside in the Maritimes, they took a big chance. They invited their retired friend Elizabeth to join them. That was nearly 20 years ago. And as Marika mentioned, Elizabeth is now 86 years old. It turns out that Elizabeth is Elizabeth Bigras, Quebec's first female psychiatrist. We were intrigued with this email. What does it mean to adopt an elder? So we paid them a visit just before Nova Scotia returned to lockdown two hours down the Eastern Shore from Halifax.

SOUNDCLIP

Well, I mean, you don't have to record quarantine.

Speaker 5: [Laughter]

You'll hear again from Marike, Karen.

KAREN COPE: I am Karen Cope.

MG: And Elizabeth

SOUNDCLIP

ELIZABETH: Another most delicious moment. And there is the tea. It's just lovely.

MARIKE FINLAY: So Elizabeth and I were friends and colleagues. I met Elizabeth through her husband, who was a professor of mine while I was doing a retraining in psychiatry at McGill University. Then when Julia, her husband, died, we became better friends and we sailed together and but I had been divorced and I met Karen at McGill. But then Karen and I decided we wanted to live by the sea and start a new profession. So we moved here to West Quoddy on the Eastern Shore. We sailed here first before we drove to Nova Scotia. So we discovered it from the sea. We thought, well, would we want Elizabeth to retire here? So we asked Elizabeth to think about it. And Karen and I thought about it very seriously. And we knew that if we were inviting Elizabeth to come and retire here with us, that meant that we were committing to be with her throughout her old age.

ELIZABETH: I was with them on the boat when we discovered Nova Scotia, and I have always been a person who loves the wilderness, I just am so happy in the wilderness. And of course, being deaf, wilderness is for me a second world where I am really at ease. I'm so happy because I don't have to speak to make to understand people and to listen to them. And so when the decision came that I was retiring and they told me, why don't you come here for me, it was wonderful. It was exactly what I would wish to see. I came here and I never have regretted, never having regretted to come here.

MARIKE FINLAY: We had to work out the finances. And Elizabeth at the time had more money than we did because we'd made big career changes. That was a consideration. And we decided to go 50/50 at the time. That's changed since now we have more money than she does. So it's two thirds, one third. So already we knew we had to compensate for her hearing, but we knew it could get worse and indeed has she's functionally deaf but now has a cochlear implant. So that was going to require some adaptation. Elizabeth drove at the time. So she still had car and her licence then, of course. Well, what would we do if she needed greater physical help? And we thought, well, a road we'll cross when we get to it, but we would we didn't want to be the primary physical caregivers because we wanted to save the friendship relationship. And so if she has greater physical needs, we think we'll just ask for help, will reconfigure the House and ask for help. And then Elizabeth has her own bathroom and this is [unintelligible] in my room and we have our own bathroom. And then upstairs we have our studies. And that's - you don't want to climb up that ladder, though. And but like originally we'd made that study for when Elizabeth came and then what was happening was Elizabeth having to walk through our room. And Karen and I were fighting was, oh, the problem is space. So we just reorganised the space so that these are our quarters when we want to be alone. Elizabeth has her quarters to be alone.

ELIZABETH: Care the Beeton's

MARIKE FINLAY: here. I'll get you a colander, OK? You want to sit down to do it?

ELIZABETH: No.

MARIKE FINLAY: No. OK, well,

ELIZABETH: I usually am the one who cleans the beans, but I think I think I cook less and less. I think they are cooking more and more, which is very lovely. I have like, special recipes that they they asked me to do like a quiche this type of omelette or for the birthdays, of course, the [French speech]. I know that in here we are in the middle of nowhere. But when I did lose my weight, when I did have this accident and then I had to give away my licence because I realised that I was a danger, you know, falling asleep when you're driving, you're a danger to yourself and to everybody else. So I gave away and that was very hard. I realised I was depressed for nearly a year. I lost one most important part of my life being libr, being free, being able to decide what I wanted to do when I wanted to do that was finished. Old age is a lot about loss. I have been losing, first, friends because they died, beloved ones because they died. And then I lost my hearing. I lost music. And that was a terrible thing. I am very grateful to Karen and Marike because they look after me. Sometimes, sometimes we do fight and sometimes I do fight because I think they look too much after me and they want me to do things that are good for my health and things that, etc., etc. And I just I just want to-- I just get mad. You get more and more dependent, you also get psychically more and more dependent, needing more attention, needing more love, needing more people to to tell you that they love you to, you know, things like that. I was probably always a little bit like that. But now I am permitting myself to to show it more. I am making up for it by finding other things, like, for instance, I have a hobby and that's photography. If you can work to find inside yourself what fascinates you, what you what you can have a passion for, it helps a lot.

KAREN COPE: We've had very funny moments, you know, because she likes, Elizabeth likes, to take these close up photographs and and she is not shy. She will lie down on the ground and take these close up photographs and will go on a walk, will go on a hike somewhere, and she'll come along. And we know she's just going to walk the beginning part of the trail. And we come back along and we see her lying on the ground and we're completely freaked out. Oh, my God, what's happened to her? She's dying. She's dead. She's tripped. She's broken a limb. She has broken a few limbs. But then we realise she's just lying on the ground taking a photograph and that we should calm down.

ELIZABETH: At first, I could have felt that I was a little envious of a couple of being in love and that I it was finished for me that moment. I mean, but love has an evolution when you grow old. And I,now think that I can't love people like I used to love them. I love them in a very different manner. But so there's no real problem. But for me, being with Karen and Marika, I think the major problem is those little, not a major problem, but one of the problems is those little clashes that we have. Like, for instance, you I've taken my iPad and I'm looking at my iPad and Marike comes in, you should not be on your iPad all day long, which is true. I agree with her, but I've just taken the top five minutes ago. And so I just want to say, hey, man, I do what I want with my time. You are not the one to, you know, feeling a little bit like they are treating me like a five year old.

KAREN COPE: The the people around us here, everyone everyone comes to to what the nature of this relationship is and to an understanding very quickly that we are a family. The people who have the biggest trouble with it, I think, are some of our blood relatives. My own parents regard this as a somewhat strange arrangement. And I think members of Marika's family aren't all down with it either. They like, that's temporary. I remember many years after I started living with Elizabeth, my father said to me something like, oh, that Elizabeth, as you call her. Oh. And I think there was maybe some distinct jealousy in there. And for sure, I feel like inside of myself, I have drawn a line and Elizabeth is the elder that I accept the responsibility of care for in a profound way, in a way that I cannot, and actually do not, for my own parents. One, because we live in different countries, but two, because they are homophobic. So Elizabeth is the elder to whom I turn for a lot of the wisdom that I need. Often helping me to think about what's going on with my students, for example. And she is also the elder to whom I look for models about how to age. This is the elder that I that I love. Who is who is first in my heart, who I. I will I will commit myself to seeing to the end of her days.

MARIKE FINLAY: So the moral of that story is if you can't adopt your own parents, just adopt another elder that you get along with and maybe somebody will adopt your parents for you.

ELIZABETH: All my life, I haven't had any children of my own. And at one time, I really would have wanted to have but OK, so. I realise that all the people younger than me, whom I have loved, whom I have admired, whom I like to be with them, etc., I had sort of an imagination like they could be my children. So, you know, when I met Marike and of course, she's 20 years younger than me, a little by little I said, oh, oh, she's an extraordinary person. She's difficult sometimes, but she's nice. I really would like to, I would have wanted to have a daughter like her. Probably it would be terrible. But I really would like to have and it's got the same thing with Karen after that. Karen, little by little I said, oh, what a person. Oh, if I had had a daughter like her, it would have been wonderful.

KAREN COPE: Very good, very good. I was going to ask you if you wanted some nuts, so nuts. This is nuts.

MARIKE FINLAY: And you're going to chop the garlic.

ELIZABETH: I now don't want to stay alone. Now, I agree that we have to organise I have to organise myself of trying not to be alone. And I do. That's what I do want. So we have--

MARIKE FINLAY: What you should say is that you tell us when you do stay alone, you get to be as slow as you want to.

ELIZABETH: That's true. When I'm alone, you know, it's vacation.

MARIKE FINLAY: I think if Elizabeth weren't with us now, she would have to be in assisted living. She can't drive, you know, she can't hear quite things. But, you know, if that's, you know, if we could do it differently in this country, at least for a big percentage of our population, our ageing population, or even a small percentage, it beats putting them in the old age home as far as I'm concerned. And if we can do that, it it maybe takes a village also to to keep an elder, not just to raise a child. You know, we've thought about what makes our relationship possible and what would make it easier. Our lawyer gets it. We have wills made up. We have power of attorneys. He says you actually should be able to declare yourself a household where the Department of Finance recognises things like pension sharing or things like inheritance without tax between you all. So there are those kinds of changes that could take care. Our financial adviser GetSet. We are considered as one family of one account with all of the discounts that that implies for things like commissions and so on. So they get it. But I would say I'd love to sit down and have a conversation with the minister of finance, both of the province and of the federal government, because there are ways I mean, the first thing is that Elizabeth is taxed up the bejeezus right now on her withdrawal of her riff and so on. And there'd be no way we could do a pension sharing arrangement. And yet, you know, our finances are totally shared everything. So, you know, or when she dies, we will not be able to inherit. And I'm not saying that we need to, but what I'm saying is it sure might be an incentive for a lot of other families to entertain this possibility. And why can't the government make those kinds of incentives rather than spending? I think it costs thousands of dollars to keep somebody in an old age home, whereas it would be hundreds of dollars of incentives to try to say, let's try and keep the elderly in households, in families. Elizabeth and I are both psychoanalysts and will often say to each other that the greatest mental illness in our society today is loneliness. And so, you know, I think that's one of the reasons that we said, well, we're going to give this a try with Elizabeth boy, during covid we're so glad for each other. We are so glad and we feel, you know, so badly for people that would be all alone in an apartment in Toronto, whereas we've got the three of us and the dog. And for months we didn't see anyone else to keep Elizabeth safe. And here we are in the middle of nowhere. But we have each other and we are so grateful for that. Of course, we thought, what if she has a stroke and she did have a tiny stroke and it freaked us out, but we dealt with it. But, you know, if you're going to say, well, I'm not going to live with an older person because all the things that could go wrong, don't think about it that way. You know, be a little more zen. If you think about all the 10 things that go wrong and nine of them don't go wrong, you've just worried yourself sick for nothing. And frankly, we don't know how these things are going to unfold. And sometimes you just have to go with your heart. So once again, if you know older or if you're an older and you know a younger, give it a try. Give it a try is just what we'd like to say to Canadians. Give it a try.

MG: Elizabeth Bigras, Karen Cope and Marika Feneley live together in West Quoddy, Nova Scotia, in the wake of this crisis, there are many people who are trying to look for different ideas around elder care. And we're interested to hear your stories about creative solutions to housing for seniors. Maybe it's in a kongregate setting a way of ageing in place. You can send us an email The Current at CBC Dossie. We're on Twitter at The Current, CBC Radio. Or you can find us on Facebook as well. The CBC News is next. And then U.S. President Joe Biden has been in office for 100 days. A lot has changed, but around the Capitol, security is still very, very tight. This is CBC senior Washington correspondent Susan Ormiston.

SOUNDCLIP

I'm standing in front of the Capitol building, peering through black metal, non scalable fencing, which encircles the entire Capitol Hill property. Now, big signs area close by order of the United States Capitol Police Board. There are state National Guard on patrol here, as they have been for months in their camouflage, a security perimeter set up around the Capitol after the riots and insurrection here on January 6th. There used to be another security perimeter about 300 metres away, but it was pulled down a month ago. And just shortly after that, someone rammed his car into the cement barricades, killing a Capitol police officer and the man was shot and died as well. I can see a Capitol police officer in his black uniform standing behind the trees on this beautifully landscaped hill that they called the People's House here in the United States. But the people's house is not very open anymore. This fencing was all set up to prevent other incursions on this capital. Limits remain that way ever since. And the next step will be to figure out how to prevent the threat, but give Americans a sense that the country is not under martial law.

MG: Against that backdrop, Joe Biden has set himself the task of unifying a divided nation will assess how well he has done coming up in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway you're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

Biden's United States at 100 days

Guests: Paul Hunter, Keisha N Blain

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come from filming Hollywood's most famous shark to spending a lifetime trying to save these creatures. The filmmaker and conservationist Valerie Taylor joins me in 30 minutes to tell us why sharks deserve our love, not fear. But first, restoring the soul of America.

[Music: Theme]

My fellow Americans. While the setting tonight is familiar, this gathering is just a little bit different. Reminder of the extraordinary times we're in. Throughout our history, presidents have come to this chamber to speak to Congress, to the nation and to the world. To declare war, to celebrate peace, to announce new plans and possibilities. Tonight, I come to talk about crisis and opportunity.

MG: that's Joe Biden speaking to a joint session of the U.S. Congress for the first time as president. Last night, it was to mark his first 100 days in office. Biden ran on a promise to, in his words, restore the soul of America. And on top of that task, he needed to get control of the covid-19 pandemic, confront racial injustice, build back the economy, and do it all in a highly polarised political arena.

SOUNDCLIP

America is rising anew choosing. Hope over fear, truth over lies and light over darkness. After 100 days of rescue and renewal, America is ready for a takeoff, in my view. We're working again. Dreaming again, discovering again and leading the world again. We have shown each other and the world that there's no quit in America, none.

MG: do Joe Biden's actions at this point meet those lofty words? To help answer that, I'm joined by the CBC's senior Washington correspondent, Paul Hunter. Paul, good morning. Good morning, Matt. What do you think Joe Biden was trying to accomplish in that speech last night?

PAUL HUNTER: That optimism is a powerful weapon in politics in this country and that the United States, you know, meaning that vast land outside the perimeter of Capitol Hill is ready for and wants what he's offering. I think that's what he believes and that's what he was trying to message last night. So here's what he's offering. More government, higher taxes for the rich. And you know, what is more government mean? Well, in Biden's view, it means better education, better childcare, better health care, less poverty, tougher gun laws, a better approach on the racial divide, police reform, the right to vote, smarter immigration laws, more jobs, and, by the way, less covid. Right. It's a it's a big, long list in just a few priorities. Just a few just a couple of things. You know, we'll get it done by Friday. But what's not to like in that, right? I mean, last night he was saying, look, we've been through the war. Right now we can do so much more. Let's get back to work. Let's address inequities. It will cost a ton of money. So make the rich pay, raise their taxes, go after tax cheats. As I say, what's not to like, especially if you're a middle class American. But part and parcel of his broad message was. Government works, it's not a bad thing to have government involvement in your life, right? Government intervention uncoded worked. It's better now there's more to do. But, you know, on his watch, the U.S. has gone from, you know, a laughing stock, Unkovic to a world leader. He's saying, look, we can do this now. Let's do more. He knows this is popular in America that make the rich pay free college. People do want this kind of stuff, man. You know, I'm sitting there watching the last of them thinking what a lefty he's turning out to be.

MG: How would you assess - I want to get to how people are reacting to this moment. But how would you assess broadly the mood in the country right now? I mean, it's been a fraught for years. And people, you know, waking up in the morning wondering perhaps what the former president said on Twitter the night before or what have you. How does the country feel now?

PAUL HUNTER: You know, I no longer have to check Twitter every 20 minutes. So me, personally, life's better. You know, he came into office with the pandemic, a spiralling economy, sky high unemployment and exhausted country torn into pieces over race, bitter, divisive politics. January six at the time of Biden's inauguration was just two weeks in the rear-view mirror. But, you know, in his first 100 days he has wrestled the pandemic effectively to the ground. As I say, worst to first, half a million people dead, most before he took office. Now, more than half the country has had at least one jab. It's, you know, a third of America is now fully vaccinated. That allows him to say that he's got stuff done to push back against that exhausted population. I mean, going back to his message last night and allows them to say government intervention brings results if everybody chips in, we can do that. I mean, how Canadian is that when you think about it. And after those four years of political brawling in this country, his approach to Republicans, for example, has been to not antagonise. It's been to reach out. Even last night he talked about that. Let's talk. He said, you know, adding, however, inaction is not an option. He says, I want to hear your ideas, Republicans, but if you don't have them or if you don't want to contribute, I'm going to go ahead without you. Nonetheless, he seems intent on at least trying to get the temperature down after four years of red hot shouting matches.

MG: I when you say what's not to like. There are many things that Republicans don't like already. I mean, they say that he's governing like a socialist when you talk about bigger government and what have you. So how have the divisions that he has said he's going to try and stitch together, how have they already gotten in the way of what Joe Biden has been trying to do?

PAUL HUNTER: Yeah, you know, I mean, is I don't know if you saw Elizabeth Warren fist pump the air halfway through the speech last night, the left in Democrat-- on the Democratic side, the left likes this guy. He's closer to what they wanted than I think anybody expected, but he's doing it in the language of a moderate kind of a revolutionary in moderate clothing. But that's what I think is freaking out. The Republicans. I mean, if you do the maths, he needs Republican support to get stuff done. There are ways around it, but it's complicated. And frankly, there's not even a guarantee, as I say, that every Democrat will be on side with Biden despite those on the left amongst Democrats liking him. I'm looking at you, Joe Manchin. He's got to get moderate Democrats onside for this stuff as well. But, you know, it's as if, Matt, it's as if Biden doesn't care. I mean, he seems to believe that he's on the right side of history here, on the right side of where America at large is going. This is another one of his fabled naks. Right. He seems to know this stuff. I mean, at one point in a speech last night, I think when he was talking about the need to help on child poverty, he said to lawmakers, you know, you know, we need this. Right? And then he turned to camera and looked like and he said, but I want Americans to understand this. And then he explained what he wanted to do straight to those who really matter, you know, voters, those who will benefit actual human beings, not politicians, as if to dare Republicans. Don't you dare cross what voters what I know that voters want or you Republicans will risk being turfed.

MG: You mentioned January 6th. I want to play one more part of his speech from last night.

SOUNDCLIP

The images of a violent mob assaulting this capital, desecrating our democracy, remain vivid in all our minds. Lives are put at risk. Many of your lives, lives were lost. Extraordinary courage to summon. The insurrection was an existential crisis, a test of whether our democracy could survive, and it did. But the struggle is far from over. The question of whether a democracy will long endure is both ancient and urgent. As old as our republic, still vital today.

MG: Nancy Pelosi says she wants a 9/11 style commission to look into what happened on the 6th of January. Hundreds of people have been arrested in connexion with that riot. Is your sense, just briefly, I suppose, that politicians in Washington have managed to really wrap their heads around the forces that led to that insurrection in the first place?

PAUL HUNTER: You know, that's a good question, Matt. I mean, I think it's not leaps and bounds from that still unanswered question of what led to Trump's victory in the first place in 2016. Having said that, you know, there remains a very large group of people in this country who, for a variety of reasons, choose to believe the kind of nonsense that led to the insurrection. Who choose to believe someone who issued false multiple statements daily people who, you know, do not have their needs addressed by politicians largely and were willing to put faith in someone who promised them candy. There's still out there. They are not, as Biden proved on election week, they're not the majority, but they still exist and they still vote. Biden is trying to respond to that in his own way. You know, tax the rich, create jobs for the middle class, reduce poverty, increase the likelihood your kid can go to college. In theory, those are real things. Right. And in theory, that should speak to those who supported Trump to those who marched on Capitol Hill and rampage that day. Biden went on at length last night about Trump's tax cuts, for example, so ballyhooed by Republicans when they got him passed. And Biden underlined that, you know, in the end with those cuts, the rich get richer and no one else really got anything. So now he wants to go after that. Will it sink in? You know, will it matter to people who put on Viking hats and trash the Capitol building? I mean, who knows? But again, Biden's betting that enough of it will sink in to make a difference.

MG: You started with the laundry list of things that he has promised to do just in the last 30 seconds or so that we have. What is his big challenge in the next hundred days?

PAUL HUNTER: I would say that his Achilles heel right now is immigration. Biden is learning what pretty much every president before him has learnt, that that's a tough issue in this country. It's as if the Biden team didn't realise that the message of his coming to power was in Central America was, come on up, the door's open. It isn't, by the way. But that was the message received down there. And so the children and the teenagers and no place to put them and not enough people to process them and the Biden version of cages. So that's a big one for Biden coming up. I would say also gun control. Huge problem, of course. You know, pleading last night to Republicans to get on side on that, please. You know, even ad libbing the line about why do hunters need assault rifles, don't do deer wear Kevlar vests, he said. But look, the NRA is weak right now. This is the time to act in theory. But so far he hasn't. But he reiterated last night it is a priority for him. He finally wants to get, you know, get those laws toughened them.

MG: Paul, good to speak with you, as always. Thank you very much.

PAUL HUNTER: Yeah, my pleasure, Matt.

MG: The CBC's senior Washington correspondent, Paul Hunter. As Joe Biden tries to move his agenda forward, the issue of racial justice is front and centre. During his run for the presidency, he called it an historic crisis confronting America. And he spoke about it last night as well.

SOUNDCLIP

It was nearly a year ago before her father's funeral. When I spoke with Joanna Floyd, George Floyd young daughter, she looked at me, said. My daddy changed the world. Well. After the conviction of George Ford's murderer. We can see how right she was if. If we have the courage to act as a Congress. We've all seen the of injustice in the neck of black Americans. Now's our opportunity to make some real progress. The vast majority of men and women wearing a uniform and a badge serve our communities and they serve them honourably. I know them, I know they want. I know. We want to help me at this moment as well. My fellow Americans, we have to come together. To rebuild trust between law enforcement and the people they serve to root out systemic racism in our criminal justice system.

MG: Professor Keisha N. Blain is an award winning historian at the University of Pittsburgh and the co-editor of a new book called 400 Souls A Community History of African-American. Professor, good morning to you.

KEISHA N BLAIN: Good morning.

MG: If you go back 100 days when Joe Biden first took office, how optimistic were you that he was the person for this moment who could address the need for racial justice and take hold of the reckoning that we saw not just in the United States, but around the world over the course of last summer?

KEISHA N BLAIN: Well, I was somewhat optimistic. The reality is that the bar was very low, meaning that I think so many Americans who just witnessed over the last previous four years the presidency of Donald Trump just felt exasperated. I think so many of us wanted to see someone in office who would actually take these concerns seriously, who would actually be talking about racial justice as opposed to inflaming white supremacy. And so I was certainly a bit hopeful. I think there are so many challenges ahead, and I don't think Biden is perfect by any stretch of the imagination. But I do think I certainly felt a bit hopeful then and remain hopeful today.

MG: I was going to say 100 days in, how has he done?

KEISHA N BLAIN: He's done OK. Of course, he had to deal with the challenges of covid-19 and there were so many challenges to face there. He has made some strides. I think certainly the conversation around police violence and brutality, I think it's important that he set in place the most racially diverse cabinet he was history that matters certainly for the people who are in the room making the decisions that will affect all of the lives of all Americans. He's taking some I think he's taken some important steps, small steps, but but certainly giving us a sense that we can remain hopeful for those of us who are committed to social justice.

MG: How do you think what unfolded last summer and in the months following the murder of George Ford, how has that shaped the way that your boy, Joe Biden, has tackled these issues?

KEISHA N BLAIN: It is absolutely shaped the way that he has tackled these issues. In fact, it was really important to hear him talk about George Floyd during his remarks. It was important to hear him talk about police violence for, you know, police killings in the United States. And, you know, I simply don't think he would be talking about George Floyd or talking about the systemic problem of police violence were it not for the uprisings that took place last summer and were it not for the work of activists pushing and pushing and pushing and demanding changes in policing.

MG: Activists would say that talk is not action, though. And I mean, they would point to and he has talked about changing policing. In particular, he was looking to Congress to pass the George Bush Justice and Policing Act, talked about it again last night, but politics is politics, and politics presents roadblocks in his way. So how much can he accomplish practically given what he has in front of him in terms of a divided Senate?

KEISHA N BLAIN: Well, I think that one of the one of the steps that he probably that he certainly needs to take is to be open to listening more to the activists, including the ones who I think he's already dismissed, particularly because he has been so critical of calls for the from the police as as an example. And so he's dismissed it. He certainly dismissed it before he was elected. And I think he continues to dismiss it. And that is one of the unfortunate realities, because, you know, I think it's important for him to listen to activists. I think it's important for him to step away from this. Oh, it's just a few bad apples framework, which, of course, came up last night. It was unfortunate to hear him say that, because that's part of what activists have been trying to point out. They're saying, no, it's actually not about a few bad apples. It's actually about a rotten tree. So he needs to grapple more with that. And the George Floyd Justice and Policing Act is meaningful, but it has a shortcomings. It certainly does not meet all the expectations that activists have had been demanding.

MG: If you go back to that, though, how does he listen and show that he is paying attention to those activists, but also bring the Republicans who might even have a more visceral reaction to those activists, make sure that they come onside as well? Because there's the political reality is that he needs those Republicans on board.

KEISHA N BLAIN: Right. And it's not easy. It's certainly not easy. But but we've seen him, for example, create over the last 100 days. He's he's created commissions. He gave instructions, for example, to the Department of Housing and Urban Development to address historical racism in federal housing policies. He could if you wanted to create a commission as just one quick example, to grapple with the constraints of funding police departments and actually provide a space for people to talk through these ideas and and imagine the possibilities beyond simply saying, oh, it's not going to work. It's too divisive. And so therefore we're not going to take it seriously. So I think there are steps he could take. I recognise that it is not easy given the challenges ahead.

MG: What about beyond policing? I mean, one of the other issues is around voting rights and we have seen a number of state governments, Georgia, I mean, amongst them. But there are other states as well that have intensified their efforts to restrict voting rights. And people say this disproportionately affects African-Americans in particular. What sort of test does that present to Joe Biden?

KEISHA N BLAIN: Well, it's a very important concern, in fact, it was good to hear him mention The Jungle, his Voting Rights Act last night, because we have seen over the last couple of years efforts to roll back voting rights. Part of the challenge ahead is to protect those rights that, of course, we have fought so, so long and hard for. And I think this has to be a central concern for him moving forward. And I think he is he's at least in the right position in that he's addressing these concerns. He's thinking through what Congress might be able to do to protect voting rights, you know, looking into the future. So it's hopeful. I as I said, it's somewhat still early in the process, but the signs are hopeful.

MG: You have a book coming out about Fannie Lou Hamer of trailblazing activists on voting rights that's coming out later on this year. If you were able to get that book into the hands of the president. What do you think he could learn from it?

KEISHA N BLAIN: Well, I think it would be important for him to just even sit with the kinds of experiences that the haima endured. And and then I think what one of the I mean, it's actually somewhat, it's a sort of early, you know, situation because as you read the ways that white supremacists blocked Haymer in the 1960s from the vote, you see all the parallels to the current moment. And I think this is an opportunity for us to question even the way we talk about progress and we talk about how much we have changed, because in reality, what you see in Haymer story is that a lot of what she was fighting for in the 1950s and 60s, you're still fighting for those rights and protections today. So I think it would be important for him to read that book and recognise that the struggle is far from over.

MG: If you pull back a little bit more even and look at the larger systemic issues. And we were talking earlier about what happened on on the 6th of January and the riot at the Capitol, where you saw people going through the Capitol building carrying Confederate flags, for example, if you are trying in a meaningful way, the president is trying in a meaningful way to address the issues that you've been talking about, what sort of accountability and justice does there need to be for what happened on the 6th of January?

KEISHA N BLAIN: Well, there needs to be some accountability. I mean, the reality is that we have sort of shifted our attention and I understand there are so many other challenges to face, as we've already identified. But there are still questions that we have not even answered about the planning of that insurrection, about the involvement of individuals on the ground, but also the the complicity we have not even to fully address the complicity of certain lawmakers, of certain leaders. So we've sort of walked away from it. We acknowledge that something happened on the 6th and we critique it, but we haven't actually taken any meaningful steps at all. So it'd be good to actually do something beyond just talking.

MG: Something being what?

KEISHA N BLAIN: Well, for starters, I think we can talk about criminal charges as just one example, does it matter if individuals were tweeting and were inciting in a way that fuelled the riots in the first place, that fuelled insurrection? Do they have to be held accountable? I think so. I think it's not just the person who shows up with a weapon or the person who's walking through the Capitol with the Confederate flag. But it's also the lawmaker who's sitting there tweeting and encouraging and not actually standing up and saying this is wrong.

MG: I know that historians don't like to predict the future, but just in the last minute or so that we have, are you optimistic? We've been talking about the last 100 days, but in those 100 days and days to follow. Are you optimistic about Joe Biden's ability to lead the country toward some idea of true racial justice?

KEISHA N BLAIN: Yes, and to be clear, part of my optimism is less about Joe Biden and more so about the people, about the it's about the optimism of the activism, meaning that what history has taught us is that when people on the ground put pressure on political leaders, change happens. We've already seen that. We've already seen that take place. And so I'm optimistic because I believe that people will continue to make demands. They'll continue to hold him to account. They'll continue to remind him of his own promises and to ensure that those promises are actually realised.

MG: It's a real pleasure to speak with you. I'm really glad for your time this morning. Thank you very much.

KEISHA N BLAIN: Thanks for having me.

MG: Professor Keisha N Blain is an historian at the University of Pittsburgh and co-editor along with Ibram Scandi of a new book called 400 Souls A Community History Of African America. She was in Pittsburgh tomorrow on the programme. Take a look at what President Joe Biden has accomplished and not on another important issue facing the United States, and that is immigration. Well, coming up after your regional update [vocalizes]. You know what I'm doing? It's the theme from Jaws seared perhaps into your minds for Valerie Taylor. That theme reminds her of more than just needing a bigger boat. She filmed many of the terrifying underwater scenes in Jaws. And in the years since the release of that film has been a tireless conservationist helping to protect sharks around the world. Valerie Taylor joins me in 90 seconds. I Matt Galloway you're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

Sharks have been long misunderstood, says conservationist who filmed scenes for Jaws

Guest: Valerie Taylor

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current.

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[Sound: Noise]

MG: Remember that scene one minute kids are playing happily on a New England beach and the next bloodcurdling screams and blood in the water? The film, of course, is Jaws. It's not only a landmark Hollywood movie, it also had a profound impact on how we view sharks. My next guest played a key role in the making of Jaws, shooting many of the terrifying underwater scenes. Her incredible journey from Spear Fisher to filmmaker to conservationist is the subject of a new documentary. It's called Playing with Sharks. It's screening as part of the Hot Dogs Film Festival. Valerie Taylor is at home in Sydney, Australia. Valerie, hello.

VALERIE TAYLOR: Hello. It's morning over there, isn't it?

MG: It is indeed. And you're ahead of us. So I hope I hope the future is treating you well.

VALERIE TAYLOR: It's been a beautiful day

MG: When you were approached to make Jaws, to be involved in the making of that film, why did you say yes? What was it that was interesting and intriguing to you about that offer?

VALERIE TAYLOR: Well, Richard Zanuck and David Brown, the producers, sent us a galley proofs of a book written by an author we never heard of Peter Benchley. And they asked my husband, Ron, and I if we thought it would make a good movie. And of course, we thought it would make a good movie because we could see that we get very good work.

MG: Did you have any idea that that book which became the movie would become this sort of, you know, monster worldwide hit?

VALERIE TAYLOR: No. No, we didn't. We didn't. We just thought it would be another movie.

MG: And the shark in the film, I mean, is 25 feet long, which is much bigger than the real sharks that you and Ron were filming. So what did you do to try to create the illusion that would make the shark even bigger and scarier, I suppose?

VALERIE TAYLOR: Good question. Ron went to Hollywood and he spoke with Steven Spielberg and the production managers and he just said, oh, sharks are only 12 to 14, maybe at the best 16 feet long and you've got a 24 foot shark. So I said no problems. We can handle it. We'll just get ourselves a small man, small cages, and we'll hire a small boat and it will make your smaller sharks look huge. And they were right. It did. We've been out of dangerous reef with a small man, small cage, smaller boat. And one thing that did happen out there, it wasn't expected was when the shark broke the cage off the winch and broke the winch off the boat, that wasn't in the script. That we wrote script for it, actually.

MG: In the film you talk about, you were 14 years old and you were looking under the water. And that was in many ways one of those first moments when you fell in love with the underwater world. What do you remember about that time?

VALERIE TAYLOR: It was in New Zealand. The water was cold. It was a homemade mask. I had to hold it on my face and I saw a piece of kelp going backwards and forwards. And I just stayed there till I got so cold, watching the kelp. I think that's beautiful. I want to see more. And that was the start.

MG: You describe being a visitor in kind of an alien world. I mean, describe that feeling of diving and what it was like to be there.

VALERIE TAYLOR: I'm very lucky, I've had an incredible life, and I started so long ago. The reefs around Australia and in the Coral Sea hadn't been properly charted. There were no satellites. So we would go out in our boat, see a dark patch under the water somewhere out there in the middle of the Coral Sea, drop an anchor lower into the water. And it was magic. We were the first. We knew we were the first we would be in a place where no other human had ever been. We did it many, many times, going around, working on fishing boats. We used to we had no money. We go on the fishing boat out into the Coral Sea. We'd film all morning and in the afternoon, we would spear a fish for the boat to pay our way. And we did that for a long time until we made our first little documentary and got money. But we were never very wealthy, we didn't have any sponsors like they have nowadays, we just went out there and we did it. The world was ours. We were young, we were fit. My husband was very talented. Looking back, I was quite attractive, and that's basically all you needed. You just needed to have a good story, good imagery, and put it together and go on television.

MG: Tell me about spearfishing. You were one of the very few women to do that at that time. What was it like?

VALERIE TAYLOR: It was hunting. I was the Australian ladies champion twice in the Pacific Cup champion once. My husband was the Australian champion in the men's.

MG: What does it mean to be the champion?

VALERIE TAYLOR: A spear fishing competition, it's all free diving. In the water, sometimes four hours, sometimes six. And in Australia, you're supposed to spear only one edible fish of each species. It doesn't work quite that way because you spear, say, the first edible trout you see and then you see a bigger one, more points. So you dish the first one, take the bigger one and can be very destructive of reef life.

MG: You speared the largest shark ever recorded. We see this in the film. What do you remember about that?

VALERIE TAYLOR: Oh no, it wasn't the largest shark, the only thing I can say for myself in that is that I dropped down about 60 feet, holding my breath, speared the shark, then dropped down again and brought it to the surface, hauled it into the boat. And we took it into shore and sold it to a fish and chip shop. And I think the owner of the fish and chip shop sloshed it all up and sold us a fish and chips. However, I've never speared another shark, and I wouldn't have learnt a great deal about them. Spear fishing torture about sharks, because dead or dying fish bleeding everywhere attract them. And they attract the big ones, the big boys. You learn that if it looks dangerous. Look at the shark, look at its eye, swim towards it. And I'm usually screaming, I'm going to kill you. And they are not used to their potential prey doing that, and it gives them respect, it makes them hesitate. Whereas also, most people see a sharkk, panic, fresh water splashing, carrying on, attracting the shark to them. They don't realise they're doing this but that's exactly what they're doing.

MG: When did you mean you and Ron both. I mean, as champions, spear fishers, you both moved from hunting towards conservation. When did you start to have doubts about what you were doing?

VALERIE TAYLOR: Probably about two years before we totally quit. Spear fishing have been good to us because it gave us money. We sold our fish to get money, to buy film, to buy petrol for tinny. Oh, tinny. It's a it's an aluminium tinny.

MG: The tin boat.

VALERIE TAYLOR: Tin boat. And so it was good for us, but it wasn't good for the ocean. It was wiping out a lot of fish far more than the reefs could cope with. I mean, no child today will ever ever know -- and I'd say probably in Canada as well -- how rich the marine life used to be. They'll only know what man has done to it. It's still wonderful. The fish are still great. Everybody loves going diving and snorkelling. But I go out off the coast of New South Wales where I live, and I feel sad. I go to the Barrier Reef and I feel sad. It's just not the way it was. I mostly dive overseas now in places that are still pristine or fairly pristine, but they're changing rapidly.

MG: And so much of the work that you were doing was trying to to document that. You got a big break in the film Blue Water. White Death, which was a documentary about sharks. And you were talking about swimming with sharks. But also, you see we see you I mean, you're out of a cage and you're floating in the ocean with the sharks. I mean, what was that? Describe what that's like.

VALERIE TAYLOR: One of the most exciting things I've ever done in my life, because these are sharks, open water, open ocean sharks are usually quite deep and they are responsible for more attacks on humans than all the other shark species together. The reason being that they take people in sinking ships and downed aeroplanes off the coast of America and some island midway, the vessel Laden warship Battleship was sunk. The sea was full of sailors swimming for their lives, waiting to be helped, and the big ocean warships came in and just pulled them apart. Most sharks, in my experience, have a certain amount of respect for a human or something they don't understand. The oceanic [unintelliglbe]doesn't.

MG: Were you afraid?

VALERIE TAYLOR: No. I was very excited. I mean, I thought we might die. And I thought, wow, this is a way to go. Something that's hard to explain, when you break the surface of the water and that sort of a situation, there's a dead bleeding whale. One hundred, two hundred, very big, potentially dangerous sharks, you're entering a time travel. It was like that thousands of years ago, probably millions of years ago. It hadn't changed. You can't do that in many places. You can't do that on land. I feel very privileged, actually, to have gone back in time. To me, it's always been a bit like going back in time.

MG: You say a couple of times in the film that sharks learn faster than you can teach a dog.

VALERIE TAYLOR: Absolutely.

MG: What do you mean by that?

VALERIE TAYLOR: In one dive, I taught a white reef shark to swim over a pink coral. He didn't do that, I hit him on the nose with my knife. If he did that, I gave him a piece of fish. I spent all the dive teaching him that. The sun was going down. I got back in the water, my little bag of fish. Now, not only did he remember me, he bought two of his mates and I had three sharks. But the mates hadn't been trained. They wouldn't swim over the pink coral where the sun was setting behind them. However, I got the shots. I sold it maybe a hundred times.

MG: You were doing this to take this incredible photo of the shark swimming over that coral.

VALERIE TAYLOR: Yea, its actually in the film. Often set up the shot. A lot of land photographers do that. Well, I did it underwater.

MG: When did you realize that, that some of the films that you were working on and it wasn't just Jaws, I mean, it was also Blue Water, White Death. We're having kind of a negative impact on sharks and we're creating this idea that sharks are really dangerous. When did you realise that?

VALERIE TAYLOR: After Jaws, we were very surprised. It's a fictitious story about a fictitious shark. Never occurred to us that people would take it so seriously. And it certainly didn't occur to Universal. They took us back to America, Ron and I, and we toured America doing every talk show, telling the people that this was a fictitious story. Sharks weren't as bad as the shark in Jaws. We never seem to be able to get the message across. You know, I'd be down there petting a nice big fat shark and saying it's a good shark, it's nice, it's gentle and I'm gentle. But you ought to be gentle. That's a very important thing. And I think the general public or people want a monster. They want the wicked witch, the boogie man, the devil. They want something evil or nasty there.

MG: And what's the effect of that being on the sharks?

VALERIE TAYLOR: That slaughter was absolutely horrific. These gung ho men going out and killing all sorts of sharks, even sharks that would never harm a human, that could not be human because they didn't have the teeth. They just went on a killing spree and we tried to stop it. In Australia, I managed to get a gray nurse shark, which is a beautiful shark with a lot of teeth. It wouldn't bite anybody. It's got a sweet nature. And it's true a shark can have a sweet nature and then you get it protected because that was so easy to kill. The divers were killing with bowheads, 20 or 30 at a time, and it was the first shark of any kind in the world to be protected.

MG: You say in the film that what, there's just 10 percent of the shark population left in the oceans. What needs to be done to protect them? I mean, part of it is, as you say, protecting huge swaths of the ocean. I mean, you kind of essentially have to protect the space that they're in, right.

VALERIE TAYLOR: You can't. The Chinese have a lust for shark fin soup. They've got the biggest fishing fleet in the world. And right now, because of the covid, they're ripping out the shark life, nobody's stopping them. It's interesting fact divers save marine life. This is scuba divers, no spear fisherman, scuba divers. It's no good protecting an area in the ocean unless it's released, the divers believe, just by their presence and also the fact they had to pay national parks a fee to go there. So the Rangers were getting paid by the divers. With covid, the divers couldn't go anymore. Nobody got paid. And the Chinese fishing boats moved in, not just in Cocos and the Galapagos. They're all off the coast of Chile. They're all through the Coral Sea, the Pacific Islands, the Indonesian islands. I do a lot of diving in Indonesia, by the way, used to be absolutely brilliant. It's still pretty good, but the Indonesians started started dynamite fishing not only kills everything else as well. However, there are protected areas and the locals in those areas realise there's more money to be made from divers than from killing fish.

MG: That's optimistic. I mean, that that gives you some sense of hope, huh?

VALERIE TAYLOR: Yeah, well, it did. Now we can't go anymore. I have two nephews. We both run dive boats in Indonesia, but they can't go there. And the boats are sitting idle. They're hoping to be able to get back once if they get a covid vaccine.

MG: We see you at the end of this film and you're still diving. You said that when you're in a wheelchair, you'll still go diving. You saw the sense of wonder about it. What do you still love about being in the water?

VALERIE TAYLOR: You roll out of the tinny, you go through the surface of the water, you go from one world to another. And you never know what you're going to see. It's excitement. The joy is no gravity. Under water. I can fly. I could fly across the Grand Canyon if underwater it was full of water. You can't do that on land. I can't even run. I can just walk, but under water, I can still fly.

MG: You have had an incredible life and it is captured in this film. It's a real pleasure to talk to you. Thank you very much.

VALERIE TAYLOR: Thank you.

MG: Valerie Taylor, underwater filmmaker and conservationist. She's the subject of a new documentary called Playing with Sharks. It's screening is part of the Hot Docs Film Festival, which kicks off online today. We're speaking with a few other people from the festival in days ahead. Tomorrow, my guest is Alesandro Rosellini. He is the grandson of the master cinematographer and filmmaker Roberto Rossellini. Alessandra's film, The Rossellinis, shares what it's like to be part of his famous and talented family.

[Music]

Murray Sinclair remembers Canadian legal pioneer Thomas Berger

Guest: Murray Sinclair

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One, my name is Matt Galloway. He was a legal pioneer who dedicated much of his career and life to indigenous rights. Thomas Berger died yesterday at the age of 88. His name is associated with many landmark cases and with his role in establishing Aboriginal title in Canadian law. As head of the Mackenzie Valley Pipeline Enquiry in the 1970s, Thomas Berger travelled through small communities in the north, listening to the voices of indigenous people and then calling for a halt to the pipeline until land claims were settled

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To a much greater extent than any of us had thought. People still rely upon the land for the food they need, and it's still for many native people in the north, a way of life. Native people in the north have a special relationship with the land, and they talked about that relationship in the most eloquent language. And it wasn't kind of a nostalgic thing. It wasn't a lament for a lost way of life. And we white people often don't appreciate that.

MG: The government listened. The pipeline was never built in the years since he headed many enquiries and commissions. And beyond the letter of the law, Thomas Burger was a great inspiration to many, including the retired senator and former justice the Honourable Murray Sinclair, who was a friend. And he joins me now from his home on the former St Peter's Reserve in Manitoba. Murray Sinclair, good morning. And I'm sorry for your loss.

MURRAY SINCLAIR: Thank you, Matt. Good morning.

MG: How did you come to know Thomas Purger?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: Well, the. When I was young, I guess I was a law student when I first encountered the name, but I followed the proceedings of the Mackenzie Valley Pipeline enquiry very closely. And during the time, I was so impressed with the way that the enquiry was being run and being done, particularly the fact that he went to the communities and he listened to the people in their home territories instead of what had been the kind of trigger up to that point in time with enquiries that was to to hold hearings in large hotels in urban areas by people and lawyers and others to come to him. And the fact that he took it to the people and and then also found a way to engage the media, CBC broadcast, just about every one of the proceedings and get the media to broadcast it to the rest of Canada, really engage the country in a very important dialogue. And I thought that's the way that all enquiry should be run. And whenever I chaired an enquiry, I strove to try to do that.

MG: Where do you think his he had a really deep commitment to indigenous rights. Where did that come from? Do you think?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: Well, I think it just came from a basic sense of right and wrong. You know, we had we had many conversations over the years, particularly during the TRC, because I would consult with him from time to time about things that we were doing. And he was really interested in what the TRC was up to and like to visit. And I remember one time in our conversation I asked him, how do you want to be remembered? Because I get asked that all the time. And he said, I just want people to say that I was trying to do the right thing. I think that's what it was. I think he just had a very strong, innate sense of justice and wanted to always to do and say the right thing

MG: was going to say. One of the reasons why people would say that about him is because he was able to earn trust. I mean, he was not an indigenous man. And yet in the 1970s, people in the north, indigenous people called him our judge. He was and he was also able to earn the trust of government and they would believe what he was saying as well and take it to heart what he was saying, that building that trust is really difficult, I would think.

MURRAY SINCLAIR: One of the things that some people overlook is the fact that he initiated he was hired by the high tech line to initiate the huge claim claim to territory, their claim to self-government. And he was the initial lawyer who started that during the proceedings. He was appointed to the court. So he didn't finish it when it got to the Supreme Court. Others in the Supreme Court argued the case, but he set the foundation for those arguments in the course of the trial that he prepared and argued initially with and the fact that he prepared that claim in consultation with the height requirement that he had to spend time with them. He had to immerse himself in their culture, their language and learn about who they are. And the one thing you can say about the Haida Gwaii people is that they have great teachers, they have exceptional thinkers and many who are well versed in traditional law, but also versed in Western law. And they were quite willing to teach them because they knew they needed to have someone like him on their side arguing their case in those courts of Canada. And so to the extent that he was that involved with them, he was eventually on by being given a name.

MG: I remember reading a speech of his called My Idea of Canada, and it was a speech that talked about great optimism of diversity and this country being, in its best moments, a model for the rest of the world, but that there was a lot of work to do to get to those good moments. Where where did that optimism come from, do you think?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: Well, I think you just said this innate sense of justice and that justice works on both sides. And he often used to say, and this is one part of my thinking, getting the work to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. We say we must not always look at this as a straight, black and white question. So there are no all bad guys on one side, all good guys on the other side. He said there are a lot of people on both sides who just don't know enough about each other. And if we can get people to start talking to each other, we can get people to start looking at each other as human beings. And he said this whole conversation is going to change because then it'll be friends talking to friends and making accommodations for each other. And so that belief that he had that we're all victims of the past and an important part of our work, that's the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. And I repeated that view many times in the course of my work as well,

MG: just in the last minute or so that we have. How will you remember him personally?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: Well, I'll always remember this as a warm, intelligent guy who was always inquisitive, always wanted to know what was going on and if there was anything that he could do to help. And more importantly, he just was always concerned about people's welfare. You know, he was one of the first things he asked me was, how are you doing? Like, really, how are you doing? If you're carrying a lot of weight, he'd say you did OK? And so he was always thinking about, you know, the burden of the task that we were undertaking because he had felt those burdens, too. And so the fact that he empathised with us in that way really meant a lot to me. And his warmth and friendship through those years was really important.

MG: You have a smile in your voice as you tell that story. And that's lovely to hear. Murray Sinclair, it's a pleasure to talk to you as always. And congratulations. I know that you were just named the the new chancellor of Queen's University. So it's a wonderful honour. Congratulations to you on that. Thank you very much. And thank you for remembering your friend Thomas Purger.

MURRAY SINCLAIR: OK, thank

MG: you. Murray Sinclair, a former senator, retired judge, he headed the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's remembering the late Thomas Berger, who died yesterday at the age of 88. That is The Current for this Thursday. Coming up next on CBC Radio one, it's Q. Tom Power speaking with Nigella Lawson, cookbook author, TV presenter, lover of Food, talking about how she wants her own recipes to be read in future. She will make you hungry and perhaps get you into the kitchen cooking. You'll hear Nigella Lawson coming up in just a few moments on CBC Radio one. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. I'll talk to you tomorrow.

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