Over a Barrel: Supporting workers and limiting climate change in Canada’s fossil fuel transition - Part 1

Guests: Travis Hann, Randall Benson, Sadie Vipond

MATT GALLOWAY: It's a home game at the local hockey rink in Fort McMurray and fitting for a city that was built on bitumen. The team is called the Oil Barons.

[Cheers]

MG: The mood is upbeat here in the city is on an upswing. But this is also the most fossil fuel dependent community in the entire country. Close to a third of workers in the Fort McMurray region rely on the oil sands for their livelihood and identity. And...

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BRIAN WYATT: Just about everything.

MG: People like Brian Wyatt.

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BRIAN WYATT: I'm retired from an oil company and I spent 40 years, so we're used to a certain, you know, way of living standard of life, and people are going to have to be willing to make some sacrifices.

MG: Right now in Glasgow, Scotland, world leaders, scientists, activists and business executives are meeting at the 26th U.N. Climate Change Conference, also known as COP26, and they're discussing ways to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and prevent dangerous changes to the climate.

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BRIAN WYATT: I have kids and grandkids in the community, and you know, I worry about whether the opportunities to work in the fossil fuel business may be there in 10, 20 years from now. You know, I think that's a big question mark.

MG: But what happens at the U.N. climate conference won't just have implications on people whose jobs and communities depend on fossil fuels.

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BRIAN WYATT: We need to move to a better place, more sustainable. You know, I think what people have to realise it has to be a transition. You can't flip a switch and go from today and be in the new world tomorrow. People in other parts of the country maybe don't necessarily realise how important the oilsands and Fortnite McMurrayis to the wealth of the country and what it provides.

MG: We all rely on fossil fuels, we've all benefited from them, and now we face hard choices about their future. Over the next 90 minutes, you're going to hear from people who are grappling with the challenge of how to transform Canada's energy sector, support the people who work in it and prevent the worst effects of climate change. My name is Matt Galloway. This is a special edition of The Current over a barrel. Canadian energy and the climate emergency. We're staying in the oil patch near Fort McMurray and going right to somebody who is on the job for a major oil company. Travis Hann is a pipe fitter. He's taking a break from work to join us a break from his six to six shift, which he does two weeks on, two weeks off and for his time off, he flies home to his wife and three children in Spanish room, Newfoundland. Travis, good morning.

TRAVIS HANN: Hello.

MG: How are you?

TRAVIS HANN: I'm doing good. And how about you?

MG: I'm well, thanks for taking time. I really appreciate you stepping in to do this.

TRAVIS HANN: Glad to be able to do it, sir.

MG: We first met you on The Current about five years ago and oil prices had plummeted. You were out of work. How are you doing these days?

TRAVIS HANN: I'm doing well. Thank you. I'm working back in the oil patch and it's going pretty good here.

MG: Tell me about that work. I mean, pipe fitting for people who don't know about the industry. What does that mean?

TRAVIS HANN: We do a lot of different things. We install pipe. We remove pipe. We repair valves, hydraulic lines. It's a bit of a physically demanding job. We work pretty hard to keep things moving here.

MG: What were you doing in that stretch between when you were working in the oil sands five years or so ago and now?

TRAVIS HANN: I spent a bit of time in the [unintelligible] mines in Saskatchewan. I've worked back up here in the oil sands off and on. I worked home the last couple of years. I was working in the agriculture industry.

MG: What does it mean to have this job now to you?

TRAVIS HANN: It means a lot to me to be able to be back in this industry. It's been my bread and butter for the most part.

MG: That's a hard slog, though. Two weeks on, two weeks off. I mean, what do you sacrifice when you're going back and forth between home and Alberta?

TRAVIS HANN: Well, I mean, being away from home, a lot of the times you miss birthdays and this special events. I mean, there's a lot of things that I don't get the prayer of taking of. I mean, sacrifice that I'm willing to make so that I can provide a good, comfortable living for my family.

MG: How long can you imagine doing this sort of work?

TRAVIS HANN: I'll do it for as long as I have to. I could do this until I'm ready to retire, may be. As long as the workers they are happy.

MG: What do you like about the work?

TRAVIS HANN: I like the challenge. I've worked with a lot of people from all over the world. Everybody that comes up here to work usually develop a bond, and it's pretty close knit. I almost feel like family up here.

MG: What do you mean? You feel like family?

TRAVIS HANN: Well, I mean, you spend half your time with people that you work with every day and it gives you a family feeling while you're away.

MG: What do you make of how people see the oil sands? There are people who say we have to get away from using, you know, the oil and gas that comes out of projects like this and that we have to move towards cleaner and renewable form of fuel. What do you say to people about that? I.

TRAVIS HANN: Well, I mean. Oil and gas industry for for many years has been a staple to the Canadian economy. It's employed hundreds of thousands of people in many different ways, not only directly or indirectly like spinoff jobs. I mean, oil and gas is products that we use every day in so many different aspects. I mean, maybe at some point in time, we may have to veer toward a greener energy, but I mean, for the foreseeable future, I think there's oil and gas industry, something that's needed so bad.

MG: Do you worry that your job could be the end of it could be on the horizon because of a shift towards renewable energy?

TRAVIS HANN: And that really I'm I'm 37 years old now, so I probably only got another 25 years or so in the industry. I think it'll be more sustainable for that long at least.

MG: You think you've got another 25 years and that that in that 25 years, the oil sands will still be thriving.

TRAVIS HANN: I think it will be, and we just went through a pretty bad collapse here in recent years. But it looks like there's light at the end of the tunnel. There's lots of work taking off the year again, not only in the oil sands here in western Canada, but their offshore oil and gas industry package to start to show signs of life again.

MG: I want to bring somebody else into our conversation, Travis. His name is Randall Benson, and he used to work in the oil sands as an electrician now runs his own company. It's called Grid Works Energy, and they do solar energy design and installations and offer training to people who are hoping to join that sector. Randall, good morning to you.

RANDALL BENSON: Good morning.

MG: How does Travis's story compare with what you hear from people you know who still work in the oil sands?

RANDALL BENSON: I still have a lot of family up there. They're working in the oil sands. They understand as well that it is a bit of a sunset industry. But as Travis says, you know, we're looking at, you know, maybe 50 years the Eevee evolution that's happening right now. It's going to take a good number of years. There's always going to be internal combustion engine vehicles on the road, even when governments and auto manufacturers decide to switch over to 100 percent EV. So we're going to need oil for sure. I've always said, even in my training courses, because I usually train people from the oil and gas industry, I would say that you're going to have opposition to what you're doing when you're transitioning your previous job to this job. But I think it's a really great idea to have two eggs in a basket, so to speak. You can have a very viable renewable energy electrification market and a really good, viable, still viable oil and gas industry.

MG: How did you make the shift to green energy? Because as I mentioned, you were working in the oil sands. So what was what was behind that shift?

RANDALL BENSON: Well, I'm I was born in Fort McMurray and basically anyone who was born in Fort McMurray, if you don't make that decision right away to move way you work in oil sands. And that's what I tried. You know, I will. After high school, I went to college, went to university, and so I gave it a good shot. I gave it three years and it wasn't for me and it really, really wasn't. I grew up, I'm indigenous, I'm Cree-Metis and Iruquois, and from my indigenous community south of Fort McMurray. We grew up in a traditional sense where we had to hunt together and fish a lot. So we we respected our environment and that stuck with me. So what I had to do in the industry opposed everything that I felt about the environment. So I made the decision to find something completely opposite. And I actually found a magazine in the mid 90s all about solar power. And then a light bulb went on, and that's what it was. And then I segway it into a lot of different things that I do today.

MG: How's business these days?

RANDALL BENSON: Generally, business is excellent, but COVID and whatnot, it's really put a damper on all of us contractors because of mainly supply chain issues and whatnot. And you know,

MG: Travis, could you imagine I mean, Randall made that shift to green energy, and it sounds like business is going all right for him. Could you ever imagine kind of making a similar shift?

TRAVIS HANN: I've had a big career changes in recent years. Yes, we've all found it pretty hard here in recent years looking for work. First of all, I'd like to commend Randall. It was not an easy move. It takes a lot of nerve to be able to get up and go do that. So I tip my hat to this gentleman. I. Like I said, I started this industry right out of high school when I was 18, 19 years old, I did my pipe fitting [unintelligible]home in Newfoundland. It would probably be a little bit hard for me to make a move, but I mean, if if this industry is to die off while I'm still only young with many working years ahead of me, I'd certainly try to get up and go to do that.

MG: Part of it is about pay. Randall, how does the pay that you can offer a great works compare with what people might make in the oil sands?

RANDALL BENSON: It doesn't really compare honestly, but there are benefits to as well to not work in oil sands if it's something that you don't find yourself wanting to do. So I start my journey electricians at thirty six dollars an hour, and just last spring we had someone who worked for Suncor, an electrician, come down and take our five day course. And I asked him, I said, as a tradesperson there at Suncor, what are you making? He said close to 60 bucks an hour. You know, there's no way that I could. There's no l'actuel or solar contractor that could pay an electrician that much. I mean, the oil and gas industry, the oil sands industry, they pay incredibly well. So why would some people want to leave that? And I completely agree with that. Absolutely. But when it becomes an existential crisis, you know, maybe it might be worth it for some people.

MG: What about I mean, the other part of it is there are other benefits you perhaps can't pay as much, but you may not be tied to the shift work.

RANDALL BENSON: And plus your home more often, especially, you know, like, you know, Travis has kids, I have kids and I'm thankful I don't have to travel. I know how tough it is. I mean, obviously, I mean, the absolute world to me and everyone. I'm sure that are doing this, that they could go home to their families every evening. But like I say, it's second nature for us now. I mean, yes, it's a sacrifice, but we do what we have to do right?

MG: Randall, what do you say to people like Travis, who? Worry that maybe the switch over to green energy just isn't realistic yet.

RANDALL BENSON: You know, I can't convince anyone to switch over. What I can do is I can help those I want to. All I can say is that, listen, the transition is happening. What you can do is look for those opportunities and get training. There's going to be training grants available here by the federal government sometime within the next year to help workers transition into a different economy like renewables or maybe electric vehicle infrastructure or whatever. It's coming. Why not get those tools

MG: Travis, when you hear that he's kind of making a bit of a pitch there towards you?

TRAVIS HANN: He's he makes good sense. I mean, for for younger people now that are just coming out of high school entering the workforce, think it would be a good idea. In the same sentence, we're still going to need many tradesmen this oil and gas industry as well. Why not have both?

MG: There is the meeting in Glasgow that's underway right now talking about how we need to reduce emissions. When you hear that, what do you think it's going to mean for people like yourself who depend on oil and gas to make a living?

TRAVIS HANN: To be 100 percent honest with you, I'm not too worried about it.

MG: What about for your perspective, Randall?

RANDALL BENSON: The best way I can say it is, it's not the person driving a truck or the person turning the wrench. It's the policies of the corporation for which you may be working for that can degrade the environment. What politicians should be looking at is they see a transition coming in. There's going to happen pretty darn soon and they need to get people transition. And in my opinion, it doesn't matter the age of that person. Most of the courses that retrain people are in their 30s, many in their 40s and 50s, and even people close to retirement. So. And I think these politicians are looking for a way to transition people as smoothly as possible.

MG: People say that this transition is inevitable. What would you say to Travis about that?

RANDALL BENSON: I would say, don't just don't keep yourself in that corner. Get as much education as you can, even if it's free. Get those tools in your toolkit. And then if something happens, I think your [unintelligible].

MG: And Travis.

TRAVIS HANN: I 'dreally appreciate the advice. And if the opportunity presents itself, if need be, I have to. I think I certainly would be[unintelligible].

MG: It's really great to speak with you both. Thank you very much.

TRAVIS HANN: Thank you. Thank you.

RANDALL BENSON: Good luck,Travis.

TRAVIS HANN: Same to you, Randall. All the best of my friend

MG: Travis Hand and Randall Benson. There are two of the people this conversation is about when we talk about cutting back our reliance on fossil fuels. Randall Owens Grid Works Energy. It's a solar energy company in Edmonton. Travis is a pipe fitter working in Alberta's oilsands, and after his shift tonight, he's catching the red eye to get back home to his family and Spanish from Newfoundland. Next, we head to Glasgow, where the 26th United Nations Conference on Climate Change is underway and amongst the world leaders, scientists and environmentalists having their say, there is a contingent of youth activists speaking up as well. Sadie Vipond is 15 years old. She's from Calgary. She's part of a group of young Canadians suing the federal government over climate change, and she is speaking at one of the conference seminars at COP. She joins me now. Sadie, good morning.

SADIE VIPOND: Good morning.

MG: What's it like thus far to be part of this big conference on climate change?

SADIE VIPOND: So far, it's really, really exciting to see everybody so excited to move forward. It's really inspiring.

MG: What's the atmosphere like there in Glasgow right now?

SADIE VIPOND: Yeah, I think everybody is very hopeful and very excited to make good change.

MG: Why is it important for you that you're there?

SADIE VIPOND: I definitely want to share my opinion, my side of the story, and I also want to learn more about the climate crisis, about what I can do more to help. I definitely want to keep the conversation going as we head into this very important event.

MG: And I mean, you in part, focus on the issue of the natural world. Why is that, for you, something that that you're leaning into is as something that needs to be protected in this larger conversation around climate change?

SADIE VIPOND: Yeah. So I hike and ski, and the natural world is just something I treasure so, so much, and it's something I want to protect. And it feels like my home and I want I want people to recognise that and to see that were being supported by this natural world. And we're nothing without it.

MG: Given that, what did you make of what you just heard? I mean, a couple of guys who have roots in the oil sands, one of whom is still there and says that in many ways it's his bread and butter. He's worried about what that's going to mean and figures that, you know, there's another 25 years or so of those oil sands producing the fuel that he says is needed around the world. What do you make of it when you listen to him?

SADIE VIPOND: Well, I'm 15. I'm not part of the workforce, but I do understand that this transition has to happen or we will be significantly behind. And I understand that this person needs money to support his family and that's his workforce. But yeah, it does. It does need to happen.

MG: Do you worry that the world that you're going to inherit, I mean, you say you're 15, but as you get older, do you worry about what that world is going to look like?

SADIE VIPOND: I do. I've already seen tons of effects from the climate crisis. My hometown, Calgary, has been heavily affected by smoke in the past couple of years, and I had to evacuate from my house in 2013 because of a flood. And so I know that if I can see the effects of climate change. Right now in twenty five years, it'll be so much worse.

MG: This is something that you've grown up in and around, I mean, your dad is a big climate activist as well. What was it like growing up in the Vipond household?

SADIE VIPOND: Well, we're very we're very active. We backpack every summer, we search for dinosaur bones. And truly, that influence has made me so much more motivated to fight for the climate because it's taught me the extreme beauty and freedom of the world that I just will do anything to protect it.

MG: You also had a real climate star in your town and in your house, before the pandemic, when she was touring across the country, Greta Thunberg stayed at your place.

SADIE VIPOND: Yes, yes, it was a wild experience. My dad made the decision not to tell me that she was coming, so I just came home from school and here was my hero, basically just standing in my house. It was surreal.

MG: What was that like?

SADIE VIPOND: She is such an amazing, inspiring person and I was super, super honoured to be able to meet her.

MG: What is the influence that she has had on you? I mean, she has led students around the world out of class for the Fridays for Future, know class walkouts and school protests, getting people to think broadly about the environment. But on you, what sort of influence is she had?

SADIE VIPOND: She's made me hopeful because she started this global movement, and to see the people so invested in it is really uplifting.

MG: And so when you think about hope, I mean, this is a it's a lot and it's easy to get caught up in the climate anxiety that can come out of something as large as a climate emergency. People wonder about what their future is going to look like. Where do you find hope in the work that you're doing?

SADIE VIPOND: Well, I feel to combat eco anxiety, and that's the best way is to fight because it's very disabling when you're worried about something, but you're not doing anything about it. So you can't really see how it's going to get better. But when you're in the movement, for me, it's very inspiring to see other people very invested in it as well.

MG: And that helps with the anxiety, as you say.

SADIE VIPOND: Yes, definitely.

MG: Sadie, good luck in Glasgow. It's great to talk to you and have some fun there too, but you're going to be doing some hard work as well. Thanks a lot.

SADIE VIPOND: Yeah, thank you so much.

MG: That's 15 year old climate activists Sadie Vipond from Calgary, now in Glasgow, taking part in COP26. Well, you're CBC news is next and then:

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[Protestors chanting] Keep it in the ground.

MG: Keep it in the ground. The protests have begun as delegates gather for COP26. We'll hear the arguments for and against keeping 'it', our fossil fuels, in the ground. My name is Matt Galloway. You're listening to a special edition of The Current, Over A Barrel - Canadian Energy and the Climate Emergency.

Over a Barrel: Supporting workers and limiting climate change in Canada’s fossil fuel transition - Part 2

Guests: Tzeporah Berman, Martha Hall Findlay

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to a special edition of The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Bagpipes music]

MG: Yes, that's in Glasgow, Scotland, the Climate Change Conference COP26 is underway and the protests have begun.

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[Cheers and applause]

VOICE: Welcome to Glasgow. This is it. The era of injstice is over. What do we want?

CROWD: Climate justice.

VOICE: When do we want to?

CROWD: Now.

[Bagpipes music]

MG: World leaders are being met with calls for climate justice from activists, and scientists are warning that this summit is pivotal. The last chance to make a true difference on climate change. There has never been more pressure to cut back on polluting fossil fuels and changes are coming. We'll all feel it. But the most dramatic and personal changes perhaps lie ahead for communities who rely the most on that industry. For Canadians whose jobs and identity and way of life are at stake, they are top of mind on today's programme. This is over a barrel. Canadian energy and the climate emergency. My next guest has been a leading voice in the environmental movement for three decades. She's been on the front lines of protests and has advised the governments of B.C. and Alberta on cutting emissions. Tzeporah Berman's latest project, is a bold proposal that would have profound implications for the fossil fuel industry in Canada and around the world. It's called the Fossil Fuel Non-Proliferation Treaty Initiative and its winning support from scientists, Nobel laureates, diplomats and former world leaders. Tzeporah Berman. Good morning.

TZEPORAH BERMAN: Good morning.

MG: We know what a nuclear non-proliferation treaty is. What is a fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty?

TZEPORAH BERMAN: You know, for decades, the World Economic Forum and others identified nuclear weapons as one of the greatest threats to humanity. And now, if you look at those same reports, climate change and failure to mitigate climate change, as well as water shortages, biodiversity loss, which are all related, are considered the greatest threat to humanity and also the most likely threat. And so the Fossil Fuel Non-Proliferation Treaty is built really on the idea that we need to treat fossil fuels as today's weapons of mass destruction. 86 percent of the emissions trapped in our atmosphere today smothering the planet come from three products oil, gas and coal, and we're just letting them continue to increase.

MG: So if you take that as the context and as the basis for what this is, how would it work?

TZEPORAH BERMAN: Well, the nuclear non-proliferation is designed on three pillars non-proliferation phase out and then fast tracking solutions. And that's exactly the Fossil Fuel Non-Proliferation Treaty. So the first pillar of the treaty is to say, Look, we need to stop expanding the problem. It's not a transition if we keep growing fossil fuel production. And then the second pillar is looking at how do we phase it out in a way that's fair. Who gets to produce what fossil fuels and how much? And then the third pillar is looking at how do we fast track solutions so that there is a just transition, not just inside each country, but a globally negotiated just transition to wind down fossil fuel production.

MG: How do you do that if we still rely on fossil fuels?

TZEPORAH BERMAN: Well, it's no question that we're going to continue to use some fossil fuels. And what our research is showing is that we have enough fossil fuels already above ground or under production to use between now and 2050 while we make the transition.

MG: I mean, one of the other issues that people will raise and you're seeing right now is the energy crunch that's being felt in Europe, but also in India. In parts of China, where there are a shortage of range of energy sources as people have pointed to natural gas being one of them. And this has larger geopolitical implications when it comes to Russia, but also for renewables. There wasn't enough wind, for example. And so you then have the fossil fuel industry saying, See, we are the reliable option. Do you worry that that could be in Canada's future as well and that that could complicate the exit from those sources of energy?

TZEPORAH BERMAN: Well, there's a couple of things embedded in all of that. One is that the solution is not just to switch to electrification and renewable energy, it's also to use less. So if our houses, if our buildings were retrofitted to be more efficient, if we had transportation systems that encouraged people to use public transportation and made it easy and more walkable cities, more bike lanes, more really good rail and bus systems than people would be using less energy. But in order to do that, we actually need new renewable energy infrastructure. We also need to be using battery storage when the wind doesn't blow, when the sun doesn't shine. And there's been so many leaps and bounds in the technology of battery storage that we know that a lot more is possible today than it has been. But again, it requires big public investments.

MG: The phase of that you're calling for, you're saying it needs to be fair and equitable. And those words are important, particularly perhaps for people who have devoted lives and careers and rely on an energy industry, a fossil fuel industry to help keep the lights on in their own homes. What are the conversations that we need to have with the people who work in that industry about winding it down?

TZEPORAH BERMAN: I think what's critical first is that every country commit to a one down plan so that there's certainty and security. So by avoiding this issue, by talking about just reducing emissions and not production, by factoring in like Canada has done or some of the oil companies in Canada have done unrealistic expectations of how much we can increase the production of fossil fuels. As long as we plant more trees or start to introduce carbon storage and sequestration, those are holding us back because they're justifying an expansion of the problem. So the first thing that we need to do is is acknowledge that we're going to need a production decline, set dates and a timeline for wind down. And then that allows us to have certainty to assess who is it going to impact? How do we create both economic diversification and retraining programmes so that no one's left behind? We will have a decline in wind down. The question is, is it going to be a shock to the system and leave us scrambling? Or is it going to be a managed decline that has a plan for workers?

MG: You co-chaired the oilsands advisory group in Alberta a few years ago, being in the room with those industry leaders. What did you learn about the challenges that we are all going to face in making the changes that you're talking about?

TZEPORAH BERMAN: At this point, everybody knows, everybody knows that climate change is happening, that it's a grave threat to our society, our economy and our safety. I really learnt that there are good people everywhere, that there are stuck in bad systems and pointing fingers at each other is is not going to get us anywhere. I think the hard truth is that for a lot of these oil and gas companies, they're not set up to become renewable energy companies. So having them at the table to negotiate the decline and sunset of the industry is almost impossible. There is a tendency that we have to hold on to what we know. We can just make this cleaner. We can just make this more efficient. We can just keep doing this. What we know about climate change is we're going to have to do things differently. And it's not just about some technological fixes. And I think that that acknowledgement and the need to look great at the hard stuff and try and find common purpose is part of why people have been so inspired by this idea of the Fossil Fuel Non-Proliferation Treaty, because it's it's finally a proposal that is commensurate with the scale of the problem we have. We can't just keep fiddling at the edges or moving the deck chairs on the Titanic. I sometimes think of it.

MG: And I know that when you were doing that work, you faced personal attacks. I'd read that you faced death threats as well. I mean, what does that polarisation do to the need that we have to find some common space to take some of the heat out of this and speak rationally about what we're up against and what we're going to try to do?

TZEPORAH BERMAN: I, you know, I really think part of it is not avoiding how difficult it's going to be. I think we in the climate movement have made mistakes by getting so excited about the potential of cleaner energy systems and new technologies that we may have glossed over in the past, how hard it was going to be. To acknowledge people's reality and people's fear, I learnt that we really needed to look for common purpose. We had to have compassion. To be honest, it's not going to be easy and also honest that we've all benefited from the fossil fuel industry. We've all benefited from the last many decades. And I can remember, I gave a speech in Alberta and in the beginning of the speech, there was just the stony silence. Like, I could feel waves of anger coming at me on the podium and I just put down my notes. Then I stopped everything and I said, Look, we didn't know, we've all benefited. We didn't know when we started building the oil sands, which is actually amazing technological feat that Canada did together, that Alberta led. We didn't know the cumulative impacts on our air or on our water, on our climate. And now we know. So we have to stop avoiding it, and we have to say, what are we going to do together to solve this? And there's this dead silence. And then a couple of people started clapping, and I went on with the speech. When I finished, there was this line up snaking through the room, waiting at the podium of people to talk to me. And I'll never forget there was this one woman is a teacher in Fort McMurray and she was crying and she said, Thank you. You know how guilty the children who are in my class feel their parents work in the industry and they and they're torn. They see this stuff about climate change every day. And you know, you're the first environmentalist who has really talked to us and and talked about what we need to do together. And that moment, for me, it changed, it changed everything because we don't have time to fight with each other. We don't have time for this polarisation. And it's honestly why I've been so frustrated with Premier Kenney and this administration in Alberta, in the war room and the millions of dollars spent on ads attacking environmental groups, you know, going can attack us all we want, but that won't change the science. It won't change the challenge of the moment that we're living in.

MG: Do we have time? I mean, 2030 is not long away. And when you take a look at what has to be done? Climate anxiety is a real thing for a lot of people, are we are we doomed or do we have time?

TZEPORAH BERMAN: At this point, we will continue to see the impacts of climate change, and so we need to prepare for that. We need to push our governments to put more money into emergency measures and adaptation so that people are safe. I mean, thousands of people have died and lost their homes across this country because of the heat domes and the floods and the fires. We're now spending billions on it. And what the science is showing us is that that's going to increase in the future. Do we have time to avoid runaway climate change and do we have the ability to actually stop this? We do. We still do. And you know, I've been at this for 30 years, and what I know is that social change isn't linear. It happens a tipping point moments. Think about the rights to turn to marriage, to free speech, to women voting, what we're living through right now on on reconciliation. There are moments in history when the science, the technology, the finance and public awareness all catch up to each other. And then we have these tipping point moments where change happens very fast. That's what we're living in right now on climate change. So many countries around the world banning the fossil fuel car by 2030, by 2035. Countries around the world putting in massive large scale renewable energy systems and committing to stop the production of fossil fuels. And we now know that there are literally trillions of dollars that have moved to divest and just invest only in clean energy and clean solutions. So I have hope and I remind myself every day that hope isn't really something you have. It's something that you create. And if there's one thing I know, if we are going to keep our kids safe and we're going to address the climate emergency, it means we need all hands on deck and it means people need to think about every day what they're doing. Not just in their lifestyle, but right- Have you called your MP? Have you written a letter to your MLA? What we do today and every ton of carbon that we save from going into the atmosphere, it'll save lives.

MG: Tzeporah Berman, it's great to speak with you, thank you very much.

TZEPORAH BERMAN: Thank you for having me.

MG: Tzeporah Berman is chair of the Fossil Fuel Non-Proliferation Treaty Initiative. The fossil fuel industry is the largest source of greenhouse gas emissions in this country, but recently five of the largest oil companies in Canada have come together to pledge a goal of net zero emissions by 2050. Suncor Energy is one of those companies. Martha Hall Findlay is the chief sustainability officer at Suncor. She's a former Liberal MP and the former head of the Canada West Foundation, an independent public policy think tank based in Calgary. She's been listening to our conversation. Martha Hall Findlay, Good morning.

MARTHA HALL FINDLAY: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What do you think of Sapporo Berman's Fossil Fuel Non-Proliferation Treaty?

MARTHA HALL FINDLAY: Well, I have to say so far and I've known each other for quite a long time and I love. I loved listening to her stress on the need to get less polarised. We've seen extremes both in in sort of activist environments and we've also seen extremes in the industry. I really was heartened to hear supporters focus on the need for moderate voices to actually figure out how we can do this together.

MG: She was also stressing the need to stop expansion to stop new production.

MARTHA HALL FINDLAY: She was.

MG: Is that something that Suncor is prepared to do?

MARTHA HALL FINDLAY: Well, so that the issue is not actually fuels its emissions? You know, one of the major pieces of the pathways project that you mentioned is net zero in the oilsands by 2050. The oilsands actually represents a full 10 percent of all of Canada's emissions. We get it. There's clearly an issue that we need to address, but I come from a government, a company that's been working at reducing emissions for 20 years. We supported a carbon price 20 years ago. We have the largest ethanol plant. We're invested in biofuels and bio jet fuels in turning municipal waste into into fuels. We're a part of the transition and have been already for some time. But you know, when we talk about fossil fuels, the key is going to be global demand and every site, the International Panel on Climate Change, the IPCC, the other U.N. organisations, the IEA, Mark Carney, anybody who's talking about this and even support acknowledge fossil fuels are going to be a big part of the mix in 2050. Frankly, most people are actually saying that use will probably go up, particularly as the developing world needs to use more. So our view is if the world is going to continue to need oil and gas, we want Canada to be the preferred source of that oil.

MG: But she also says that you need to prepare for the sunset of the industry. And she says for a company like Suncor, which has built in many ways on a long history in the oil sands, that that's almost impossible. Would you agree that the company is not prepared to sunset itself?

MARTHA HALL FINDLAY: Oh gosh, that listen, we're we're a successful energy company, have been for decades and plan to be a successful energy for a long time to come. You know, we own Petro Canada, the retail distribution arm. And you can now drive as of 2019. Actually, you can drive an electric vehicle across the entire country because we have fast chargers installed at enough stations across the country that you can actually do that. We also know that uptake on EB sales is challenged because people have range anxiety. So building that Electric Highway Patrol Canada stations was very much an effort to help us work with our customers to allow them choices that are part of the energy transition we want. We want those people to stay as our customers. We're a business, but if we recognise that emissions are the issue, that's why pathways, the foundational project is focussed on carbon capture and sequestration. And we're not the first. Actually, Canada was leading in CCUS. But there are two major projects in Europe that the long ship Northern Lights project out of Norway, in northern Europe and the port those project in Holland, both huge carbon capture and sequestration projects. And that's proven technology. We can do it now. That is certainly the biggest soonest, you know, low hanging fruit that we can do. Is it the only answer? No. They're going to be other answers. Cool technologies like carbon engineering, which is direct your capture. But we have to look at all of this and we have to collaborate. We're going to have to use governments, private sector and organisations like, you know, the work that support us.

MG: What pressure do you face from financial institutions from, for example, the University of Toronto, which is divesting from its $4 billion investment fund, beginning immediately saying that it will not have any further investments in fossil fuel companies that people have pressured them to say enough is enough. Get your money out of these companies. What does that tell you?

MARTHA HALL FINDLAY: Well, it tells me two things and what tells me one that they haven't done their homework into how that money actually is used. The oil and gas industry in Canada has been by far and away the biggest investor in clean tech. And so if our businesses can't invest in the future of energy, not sure how they think it's going to happen. Secondly, you have to divest from Canadian fossil fuels, for example. There are other people who will join in because of the returns. And so, you know, I would then say, do you think that that kind of divestment is going to have an effect on the on the national oil companies around the world that are not publicly traded? They're not in democratic countries. They don't care. And so they're going to continue to. Even even the IEA has acknowledged that fossil fuels will increase, production will increase by 2050. Not a ton, but there will be increases. But they're basically saying that's all going to be [unintelliglbe]. So, you know, the divestment stuff is frustrating for me because it sounds good and it's, you know, but it doesn't have any practical effect. In fact, it can hurt some of these really strong efforts to accomplish things

MG: we may not have known in past the effect of burning fossil fuels. We know now what that does, and we see it. You take a look at what happened. I was a little in British Columbia. It was 49 degrees there. The town burned to the ground. There was a heat dome in western Canada. Thousands of people lost homes and their lives over the course of this summer. Do you think about Suncor's role in that?

MARTHA HALL FINDLAY: You know, tons of people who work in this industry? No, none of us realised what was happening. But we do now and we have frankly over the last decade or so. And that's why we're working so hard to find these solutions.

MG: But personally, how do you how do you reconcile that?

MARTHA HALL FINDLAY: But how would I not reconcile that, Matt. Like I have to say, I have been- You know, I have been called a murderer. I have actually, since I've joined Suncor, I have been treated abominably by various people. I watched colleague, Ben van Beurden from Shell, be told point blank, you should be tried for crimes against humanity. This is the challenge of the extremes. This is the challenge of the ideological extremes. Do I take personal responsibility for what happened to Lytton? Of course not. The globe has used fossil fuels for well over a century. We now have to deal with how do we actually solve this problem. We need collectively to recognise that this is on a scale where we, we private sector governments have to step up in a way that we've not seen, except for other really dramatic global challenges.

MG: I want to ask you about political will. The new environment minister for this country is a longtime environmental activist. Steven Guilbeault was arrested for climbing the sea in tower and hanging a banner talking about the climate crisis. The premier of Alberta, Jason Kenney, says that his appointment sends, in his words, a very problematic message. You are a former politician, former Liberal MP, now working for an oil company in that province. How do you reconcile those two perspectives?

MARTHA HALL FINDLAY: I'll use Tzeporah's words again. We have to move away from polarisation. There's no question that Steven Guilbeault has been of the more extreme on on environmental activist side. That's fine. We need we need loud voices to get us to action. My hope is that Minister Guilbault recognises now that we have to collaborate to move forward. We cannot make this work if we're pointing fingers, if we're vilifying and I say that on both sides that we can't do that, it's just simply not going to work.

MG: You can imagine there are some people who are listening who are pulling their hair out, saying, we don't have time for this, that we need people who are going to demand urgent action because the situation is urgent, that we don't have time to talk about technologies that may not be here yet. Now is the time to talk about keeping this substance in the ground, that that's going to get us where we need to be because the clock is ticking. What do you say back to them, the people who say that what you might be describing doesn't match the urgency of the moment?

MARTHA HALL FINDLAY: I would ask them what they think the world would look like tomorrow if everything shut down. We've actually been watching this play out in Europe. I mean, the astounding fact that Joe Biden has been asking OPEC to increase production because of insufficient U.S. production. The realities out there are that there is still a huge amount of demand globally for fossil fuels. My hope, frankly, is that we move away from the ideological black and white. Oh well, we just have to stop this to two figuring out the solutions and again, its emissions. It's not keeping the stuff in the ground. We know what's going to be used. So how do we actually deal with the emissions from its use? Frankly, that's a lot more just than trying to pretend that we can just shut it all down tomorrow.

MG: Martha Hall Findlay, safe travels and it's good to speak with you. Thank you very much.

MARTHA HALL FINDLAY: Thanks very much for having me, Matt.

MG: Martha Hall Findlay is the chief sustainability officer at Suncor Energy, one of the five largest oil companies in the country, and she's flying off to Glasgow today to attend COP26. Well, as you're hearing, the approaches are different, but the common ground is that emissions must come down and soon to prevent catastrophic climate change. World leaders at COP26 will discuss how to do that, and the outcome will affect all of us. But it will be felt more acutely in the communities whose lifeblood flows with the ups and downs of fossil fuel. After your regional update, we will head to Estevan, Saskatchewan. My name is Matt Galloway, and this is a special edition of The Current, Over A Barrel - Canadian Energy and the Climate Emergency.

Over a Barrel: Supporting workers and limiting climate change in Canada’s fossil fuel transition - Part 3

Guests: Jackie Wall, David Yager, Angela Carter, Jackie Forrest

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to a special edition of The Current. Over a barrel Canadian energy and the climate emergency. This is part of our special coverage on climate change and in the coming days, we will bring you stories about how climate change is making it harder to grow food and driving human migration around the planet. We'll also visit Canada's far north to meet some of the people most acutely affected by the changing climate. What it means for their food and hunting and transportation across the vast distances that connect to remote communities. Today, though, we continue to look at what reducing emissions will mean to Canadian communities that rely the most on fossil fuel production. Of course, reducing emissions is going to be a challenge for all of us. So much of how we live and work still relies on burning oil and gas, and yes, indeed coal as well. But few places feel that challenge more directly or personally than Estevan, Saskatchewan. About one in five workers is employed by the local coal mine and two major coal fired power stations. Jackie Wall is executive director of the Estiment Chamber of Commerce. Jackie, good morning.

JACKIE WALL: Good morning. Thank you very much, Matt, for letting me join in this conversation this morning.

MG: It's great to have you here. What has the coal industry meant for your town over the years?

JACKIE WALL: The coal industry is one of the major employers in this community, and it has been one of the major power generators for our province for decades.

MG: And so when you see in Canada and around the world real efforts to rapidly phase out coal, what does that look like in essence?

JACKIE WALL: You know, that is a real struggle here in Estevan. We have this community has really worked to increase the the climate standards for the coal industry here. In fact, we had we have the first large scale CCS plant here and it is reducing not only the CCS's emissions or sorry that the carbon emissions, but also the sulphur emissions.

MG: CCS means carbon capture and sequestration where you take the carbon that's expelled in getting the coal out and you put that back into the ground.

JACKIE WALL: Yeah, correct. That is boundary down it, down unit three here. And it produces hundred and fifteen megawatts of power, enough to power about 100000 Saskatchewan homes, and it is capable of reducing CO2 by up to 90 percent. And if you combine, combine that with biofuel, CCS can actually be carbon negative.

MG: In the midst of that, though, I mean, there still are efforts to phase out coal fired generation by 2030. I mean, that's eight years away. And so when you take a look at that and the fact that this is this is hurtling down the highway towards you, what's this going to mean? I mean, for your family, for example, what would that mean for your family?

JACKIE WALL: Well, my husband actually just drove to the coal mine this morning to put in his shift. He has been employed there for a number of years. We are very much as a community coming together and trying to get the message out that coal fired electricity is a very viable solution when paired with cars. And if we want coal to continue in the future in our community, it does have to be tied to carbon capture and sequestration. And that means not only increased power production and reliable baseload power in our province and technologies that could be adopted around the world that would just supremely reduce the amount of carbon emissions that are being emitted globally. You know, this is a solution that is happening here and can be adopted in many places throughout the world and can have a huge impact until renewables are reliable baseload power, we have to look at clean energy and clean energy does mean the inclusion of CCS.

MG: There are a lot of people who say that that's an oxymoron, that there's no such thing as coal.

JACKIE WALL: Well, you know what, if they really wanted to get technical. Take a look at how our solar panels and our wind powered electricity is produced. You have to burn. You have to burn fossil fuels to produce the windmills. Fossil fuels are not going away.

MG: Pardon me for steel production, you mean.

JACKIE WALL: YFor steel production, yes. Yes, which is what the the wind turbines are made of the steel production. So what we need to do is open up the conversation to really not have it be as your previous guest stated, a black and white situation. There are so many options in between and so many ways that we can transition. We just are not there yet. We are not there yet that we can 100 percent rely on renewable production of electricity. We have to look at clean energy production and and take a look at what that really means. Fossil fuels are not going to be diminished significantly without these other technologies, and CCS can be applied. It's applied in the oil and gas industry. Many oil and gas companies are doing it to get to carbon neutral within their own companies. We have oil and gas production that has led to new advances in geothermal energy production. So it's all tied together. We need a very unique mix. We need to be having these difficult conversations and we need to open up to take a look at what truly is clean energy and how we can use it to transition to renewables.

Do you worry about the future of your town? I mean, you have teenage kids. Do you think they have a future in Estevan if what you're talking about doesn't come to pass and the real hard push around the world to phase out coal fired generation by 2030 comes to pass?

JACKIE WALL: Yes, absolutely. In fact, I'm having a conversation with the representative from South Power today because power is looking at moving into nuclear technology, along with New Brunswick, Ontario and Alberta. They recently signed an emoji of understanding moving nuclear forward, and our community is potentially one of the sites for a nuclear power production plant. You have to understand that we have the infrastructure here to get the power across our province and and to parts of our province. So the infrastructure is here. And if we are not going to be able to produce our power through the conventional coal, then we're really hoping we can use the CCS partnered with coal. And I guess we are now taking a look at what nuclear would mean for our community.

MG: If that doesn't happen, I mean, I've heard people describe the future of Estevan as a ghost town, that if the coal were to go out and stay in the ground, then that would be the end of your town. Is that realistic?

JACKIE WALL: You know what, that is absolutely a possibility, however, we are working very hard as a community and we're getting a lot of stakeholders together as your economic development committee through partnering with other stakeholders in our region, and we are taking a look at all of the resources that we have here. And I'm not just talking natural resources, I'm also talking with skilled workers. I mean, we have machinists, mill rates, welders, power engineers, heavy equipment operators. And and when it comes to the trades, there's still a huge high demand in the trades. So, you know, we're calling out to companies who are looking for that skilled worker workforce and saying, Hey, take a look at us too, then we've got a lot to offer here. We're close to the border. We have railway tie ins. We've got a highway access and we have skilled workforce and plenty of space. So there is a lot here that we are looking at to diversify our economy. But ultimately, energy production is huge. Here we have solar, we have geothermal, we have oil and gas, we have coal. This is an energy community and we are looking at how we can move that through with a mix of energy solutions, clean and renewable jackets with the fossil fuel.

MG: It's good to talk to you about what is happening in your town. And as you say, these are difficult conversations, but hearing firsthand what's happening on the ground is important. I appreciate you joining us this morning. Thank you.

JACKIE WALL: Thank you very much, Matt. I very much appreciate it. Everyone has a great day.

MG: And you. Jackie Wall, executive director of the Chamber of Commerce and Estevan Saskatchewan, is what's happening in US have been a sign of things to come for the fossil fuel industry overall in Canada. And if so, what would that mean for those communities and for the rest of us, joined now by three people who have been grappling with these types of difficult questions. Jackie Forrest is executive director of the ARC Energy Research Institute. It provides analysis of energy trends to investors and corporate leaders. David Yager is an oil industry consultant and the author of For Miracle to Menace Alberta A Carbon Story Jackie and David, both in Calgary. Angela Carter is a professor of political science at the University of Waterloo, who studies the political, economic and ecological risks of fossil fuel dependence. She is in Conception Bay in Finland this morning. Good morning to you, all!

ANGELA CARTER: Good morning.

DAVID YAGER: Hi.

JACKIE FORREST: Good morning.

MG: Angela, just briefly, I mean, you heard Jacqui Wall there, talk about the importance of carbon capture and how she believes in many ways that could be. Offering a lifeline to communities like hers that have a huge dependence on coal and the coal industry, what do you make of that? Is that the promise that that many people actually believe in?

ANGELA CARTER: So there's a huge debate and big questions around carbon capture and sequestration. And I think the way to really cut through that question is to say, OK, is carbon capture and sequestration being paired with reducing production? If it's not, it's I would argue it is a distraction because the point here is that we need to reduce emissions at the point of production, but we also need to be winding down production overall. Otherwise, from a global perspective, we're just driving along those emissions that are causing the climate crisis.

MG: That's when it comes to coal. Do you believe the people in the oil and gas industry should be worried that that the change that Jackie's worried about could be coming for them next?

ANGELA CARTER: Well, certainly. I mean, globally, oil demand is now a big question mark over that right? And there's reasons good reasons for that. Both markets, one, new market pressures. I'm sure Jackie can can speak to that. Technological ones, political ones. Here we are at the Conference of the Parties. And what are we seeing changing now, well, oil supply is suddenly being foregrounded and this is happening through to Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance that Denmark and Costa Rica are leading. It's that the fossil fuel, the non-proliferation treaty for fossil fuels that [unintelligilbe] mentioned. It's also the least developed countries of the world that have been pressuring the G20, the rich world countries now for a long time to rein in their fossil fuel production because of the harm that it's causing. So suddenly, we've got a shifting terrain globally that's focussing on supply, and Canada features really badly in terms of, you know, producing the fossil fuels that are creating the climate crisis.

MG: Jackie, what about from you? I mean, the International Energy Agency says, keep it in the ground if you want to get to net zero by 2050. And Angela mentioned jurisdictions around the world that are moving in that direction. Is the world actually moving away from oil and gas?

JACKIE FORREST: Well, you know, the IEA actually said not to develop, in a net zero scenario, not to develop any new oil and gas place, but we will still need existing oil and gas plays for some time. Although oil and gas is going to decline, we're still going to use quite a lot of it over the next 20 years. So, you know, if the goal is to reduce emissions, we should be trying to reduce all emissions. And I think it makes a lot of sense to capture carbon and make the oil and gas we're going to use regardless as low carbon as possible. So I think CCS has to be part of the solution. And later on, you know, maybe we can do different technologies with CCS where we capture CO2 directly from the air, which is going to be needed in order to meet these long term goals for warming could not make the warming go so high. So I think CCS is really, really critical and I think Canada is in a position to be a real leader and we're already seeing signs of that in terms of some of the announcements of projects.

MG: So Angela's point and I can bring David in just a moment, but Angela's point was that Canada is put in in a difficult position if the world is actually moving away from oil and gas. Is that the squares with your analysis?

JACKIE FORREST: I mean, we probably will see the oil and gas industry in Canada be smaller over time in a net zero scenario. However, we can have a larger share of that market if we're the lowest carbon barrel. So I think there's opportunity in that. I also think there's huge opportunity in the low carbon future for Canada as well. I mean, we've already seen a couple of hydrogen projects be announced large hydrogen projects here in western Canada, the world's first zero emissions ethylene cracker. So as you know, maybe oil and gas declines over time, there's opportunity for low carbon projects here in Canada as well.

MG: David Yeager, you have warned about the risks of moving away from fossil fuels too quickly in a climate emergency. What does too quickly mean?

DAVID YAGER: Well, there's there's the future of energy, and there's tomorrow, and this is the point of this debate on climate change, and I'll get a look at argue with the science that that is the global content of the atmosphere. Well, this one ship has sailed, but the point is people. The energy is ubiquitous people, the energy transition as it's being pitched that we should have. We have to go from high carbon energy to low carbon energy. That's why that's underway as as best we can. But the problem is is that the pace is the real issue. And so I don't think anybody contemplated a no energy future and this is the reality of winding down. This is the cumulative impact of the ESG movement of underinvestment in in fossil fuels, the fossil fuel divestment movement, the the pandemic, the supply chain interruption. All have come around to the fact that there's one thing is is what we should do for the future of civilisation is one thing about tomorrow. And so we're seeing, we're actually seeing energy shortages today. And that is because that renewables, in my view, have been a bit oversold. There they are the future, I think, because nobody argues with that anymore. It's great. The idea that I could heat my house for and run over my life for free off solar is intoxicating. It's wonderful.

MG: But your suggestion is the pace is not there, that we're thinking too quickly.

DAVID YAGER: Yeah, we just overshot shot. This said, I don't know whether how badly this is maybe exacerbated by the by the pandemic and the supply chain disruption. And how much of it is the reality that that in the end, the cost of energy to the world. 10.9 Billion people in the world waking up today, saying How do I get through the day? They don't get to go to Glasgow, they don't get to have conversations like this. They're talking about food on the table, power at night and, you know, medicine, all the supplies. And so we have to we have to look at this from a global context. We keep - and this some very thoughtful comments on this programme so far this morning. I want to crowdfund shutting down the oil sands tomorrow if it would solve the problem, but it won't. We have to bring the rest of the world into this, and I hope that your programme will help in this conversation this morning, elevated from the science of energy and and how what is realistic to achieve without energy shortages.

ANGELA CARTER: Can I just jump in there? Because I've heard now a couple of the folks have spoken on your programme. Talk this morning about shutting down the oil sands or the tar sands tomorrow. Nobody's talking about that. The point that is being made here is that we need a managed, orderly phase down of Canada's oil and gas sector. So everyone knows that we need energy tomorrow. And of course, we're thinking about how do we fulfil the energy needs that we all have? And right now, those are really embedded in fossil fuels. But the point is that over the long term to 2050, starting today, we have to do that stepwise wind down.

MG: How do you do that? What are the steps that need to be taken, Angela? People have talked about, for example, subsidies to oil and gas. Is that the way that you start that, that step down, as you say?

ANGELA CARTER: I think that that's certainly part of it. So all of the supports that we currently give to the oil and gas sector, and they are enormous. I mean, on a conservative number, it's two billion a year. But if you look at a more realistic number that takes into account financing that's offered to the fossil fuel sector, we're into tens of billions of dollars a year.

MG: People have said as much as 18 billion in 2020.

ANGELA CARTER: Yeah, it's huge. And I mean, even even those numbers are sometimes considered conservative because they don't take into all of the, you know, tax breaks and royalty breaks that the oil sector gets. So the first step is you pivot those, you redirect those subsidies towards a kind of economy that we need. And that means supporting people, making sure that workers are protected and are not left hanging, that they get good jobs part of that new energy economy. So basically, when people say where we're going as fast as we can, I think back to the start of Alberta's oil sector. So if you go back into the 1940s, even even earlier than that, an enormous amount of research and investment dollars in infrastructure spending was directed towards the problem of, you know, how do you get oil from bitumen. We spent decades as a country doing that. Now we need to do the same for the transition. So we've done this before we became an oil economy. Now we need to become a green energy economy and we know how to do that because we did it for oil.

MG: Jacckie, how do you see that working? I mean, I think it's interesting that most of, if not everybody on the programme this morning has agreed that emissions need to come down. So how do you do that and what are the incentives that would make the most difference in getting those emissions down as quickly as possible?

JACKIE FORREST: Yeah, I would focus on something completely different. I would focus on the demand side. I think that's been the problem up until now is there's a lot of focus on let's cut off the supply. We're doing nothing on the demand side, and that's kind of where we are with today, where an underinvestment over the last several years has led to a lack of supply and spiking prices, and I don't think that's going to be an orderly transition. I think we should put way more effort and policy and investors should all focus on what can we do to reduce demand, whether it be accelerating electric car adoption, accelerating the use of hydrogen instead of natural gas and oil and gas industry will reduce its production when there is no demand because prices will drop and the economics will be such that they'll very quickly reduce their production. We saw that over 2020. So I think a lot more effort needs to go on the demand side, and the supply side will will naturally follow. And that's going to be a much more orderly transition where we're not going to see price spikes and a lot of pain for consumers like we're seeing today.

MG: What do you see, David, as the interventions that should be deployed to lower additions to to the point that, as you said, scientists agree that this is where we need to get to

DAVID YAGER: the the week in Calgary. I wrote an article for CBC earlier this year about how why are those guys in cold weather people in Calgary so weird? Because we read we look at a global industry that oil is a global commodity where there's Canada's the fifth largest producer on a barrel of oil equipment in the world. And so we watch what the world is doing, not what Canada is doing, not what money may or may not have gone into the oil sands in the last century. But what is the world doing? What the world is doing is growing rapidly. If you look at OPEC's forecast for what they predict out to 2025. They see oil demand up by eight percent. They see the population up by 1.7 billion. They see no growth in the all OECD countries. That 96 percent of the growth in energy demand and population will include include the non-oil OECD world and those 1.3 billion people in the OECD world, which is most of the G20 and most of the people of Glasgow. But the 6.5 billion people in the rest of the world and the rest of the world is nowhere near where we are. And so what if you really want to solve the problem? I would like to talk about reducing global emissions, and what we're not talking about is what the conclusion. I wrote a book about this. The only conclusion I could come to us to do this fairly without penalised, without creating energy poverty with those that don't have any. The way to do it was to find a way to use to make fossil fuels more benign, to reduce emission from fossil fuels. There's nobody better equipped to do this than the Canadian oil and gas industry. So it's not getting out of the business, it's getting better at the business.

MG: It's a bit of what Jackie was saying as well.

DAVID YAGER: Yeah, absolutely, and this is what I'm doing. I mean, just just for the record, later this today, I'm going to go out to the oil fields of rural Alberta and test a new tool to shut off methane leaks like this is what we're doing every day.

MG: Angela, I could hear you in the back.

ANGELA CARTER: Yeah, because this question of a fair I mean, if we're if we're really serious about that, there's a literature now that's developing on the what is equitable globally in terms of emissions. And if we're looking from that perspective, Canada is the lead. Maybe one, maybe number two in terms of historical polluters and we've got the capacity, economic, technical governance to transition. So really, the onus is on Canada to start this phase down. And if anyone is going to be producing fossil fuels in the future, it's got to be the countries that haven't had the benefit yet of building their economy from it. So, you know, I think we need to be careful about equity in this case because there's a lot of countries that we might need to be opening space for to develop while we scale back because we've benefited.

MG: David, do you see an opportunity is interesting and hearing from Sapporo Burman environmentalists, who's been working in this field for 30 years, and then Martha Hall Findlay, who is working with Suncor. They both were calling for people to kind of turn the heat down a little bit, that there's too much polarisation in this, that there needs to be some space for people to talk to each other, not at each other. If you do that, what's the opportunity, do you think?

DAVID YAGER: I would like to see the young people of Canada, I'd like to see them quit scaring them and engage them, and I've been saying this for a long time is what we should do, what we can do in Canada. We have many of the things that we have been talked about. We've got technology, we've got ingenuity, we have a lot of tools. And so the greatest single contribution that could be made to the reducing the GHG content of the global atmosphere would be to clean up the rest of the undeveloped world if we could come up with the technology. And our guest from Amsterdam said that already, what could we really do if we could get China to reduce its emissions from coal in the short term? This would be very, very meaningful.

MG: But when you say when you say, stop scaring the kids, I mean, what do you what do you mean by that? Because because kids are frightened, they're worried. If they're worried about the we talked with a 15 year old at the beginning of the programme who worries about the world that she's going to inherit.

DAVID YAGER: So exactly. But I would engage them. I would engage them on the enormity of the problem and the challenges on a global level, not on the regional level, that if we what I see a lot, what we do in Canada is we've got this become a political wedge issue where we have one part of the country against the other, where we have the urban areas against the resource producing areas. No, we have. If it's a global problem, let's have a global conversation. So let's talk about what it's really going to take to reduce the GHG content of the atmosphere on a global basis. And it isn't. Putting Alberta and Canada out of the fossil fuel business is engaging the Canadian fossil fuel business for best practises, ingenuity and technology. And then when the new technologies come along, that could replace the terms of banking as [unintelliglbe], if the new technologies come along, that can truly replace fossil fuels, something else to make plastic with, for example, something else to make fertiliser with. I mean, just don't forget that half the cost of fertiliser in the world currently comes from fossil fuels. We had a really shutting down fertiliser plant in Europe. I mean, this is a way bigger problem than than what Canada ought not to be doing. So I would, we have an opportunity here where until we depolarise this debate and that's been mentioned were blown right by it.

MG: Jackie, what's the opportunity to find common purpose between industry and people who are rightly concerned about the environment?

JACKIE FORREST: Well, you know, I think there's a huge opportunity. About 20 percent of the oil we produce in western Canada is consumed in Canada. The rest is exported. And so it is important that we reduce our emissions not only for our domestic emissions, but also to reduce emissions of oil that's used globally. And if it wasn't us producing that oil, somebody else might be producing it and it wouldn't maybe be as low carbon. So I think there's an opportunity for us to reduce the emissions from our oil and gas sector. But there's also the opportunity for new businesses, and I really want to focus on that. I mean, Alberta, in the last six or eight months, we've had seven new solar projects large utility scale solar projects announced here, backed by companies like Amazon and lots with companies like Imperial announcing a big biofuels project, two major CCS projects. CC Energy saying that they're going to partner with the and do hydrogen infrastructure for Big Semi. But there is tons of opportunity in this transition, and I think that's what can get young people excited. You know, we can continue to produce oil and gas. Maybe it will decline over time, but it will become some of the lowest carbon in the world and at the same time, create these new businesses that young people can get excited about. That are they're not the problem. You know, we're making a solution here. We're solving the problem.

MG: It's really great to speak with you all about this. These are big, complicated conversations, and I'm glad to have you as part of the programme this morning. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Angela Carter, professor of political science at the University of Waterloo. She studies the political, economic and ecological risks of fossil fuel dependence. Jackie Forrest is executive director of the Arc Energy Research Institute. She hosts their podcast, Energy Ideas. And David Yeager is an oil industry executive and energy policy analyst and the author of From Miracle to Menace Alberta, A Carbon Story. That is The Current for this Monday. We would love to hear from you. How do you want to see Canada's energy sector change to address the climate emergency? If you live in a community that relies heavily on fossil fuel related jobs, maybe this is how you make your own living. Let us know what you're thinking about as these issues unfold. What are you hoping for? What is a just transition look like to you? You can email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC or find us on Facebook. We'd love to hear from you after this conversation. Comes up next on CBC Radio One, Tom Power having a conversation with the great Billy Bragg, he has a new album out called The Million Things That Never Happened. I'm Matt Galloway thanks for listening to this special edition of The Current, Over A Barrel - Canadian Energy and the Climate Emergency. We'll see you tomorrow.

The Current Transcript for November 1, 2021

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Prologue

Over a Barrel: Supporting workers and limiting climate change in Canada’s fossil fuel transition - Part 1

Over a Barrel: Supporting workers and limiting climate change in Canada’s fossil fuel transition - Part 2

Over a Barrel: Supporting workers and limiting climate change in Canada’s fossil fuel transition - Part 3

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