Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2024

The Current Transcript for November 04, 2024

Host: Matt Galloway

Prologue

Guest:

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: I feel I am more peaceful now. I'm thinking that I can just relax and live my time with my dear ones.

MATT GALLOWAY: Sandra Demontigny was just in her 30s when she was diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's. Having watched her father and grandmother suffer with the same disease, she's been calling on the Quebec government to allow for advanced consent for medical assistance in dying to avoid the anguish that her family members went through. And now, that government has said yes. In an hour, we will revisit my conversation with Sandra and get an update on her case. Also this morning.

SOUNDCLIP

CELINE DION: My dream is to be international star, and to be able to sing all my life.

MATT GALLOWAY: Even at the age of 15. Céline Dion, new from Quebec to the world, the pop superstar has become as much a cultural icon as a musical force. A new CBC podcast explores her rise and global impact, and in 30 minutes, understanding Céline. But the day before America elects its next president, we begin with the battle over casting and counting those votes fairly. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

U.S. braces for contentious vote count

Guests: Pinny Sheoran, Amy Gardner

MG: One more day. After months of political drama south of the border, U.S. Election Day is just about upon us. You may already be having flashbacks to the messy fight over the vote count that took place after the 2020 election, culminating in the attack on the U.S. Capitol. Starting tomorrow, we could see another drawn out battle over balloting. Donald Trump and his allies have continually sown doubts about integrity of the voting system since his loss to Joe Biden. And in recent weeks, Trump has been ramping up his claims of election fraud.

DONALD TRUMP: We're doing very well. I think we're leading by a lot, and we can keep them if we can keep that cheating down because they're a bunch of cheats and we can keep that cheating down, we're going to have a tremendous victory, I think. I think it'll be I think it'll go down as one of the greatest victories of all time.

MG: There is no evidence of widespread voter fraud in the 2020 or this election. As the votes are counted in a race that polls suggest is neck and neck. All eyes will be on swing states that will determine the outcome. And one of those swing states is Arizona. The focus there will be on Maricopa County. In 2020, there was a fight over ballots in that region of the U.S. Southwest. Donald Trump falsely claimed to have won his supporters, some of them armed, turned out outside of election offices in Maricopa for stop the steal rallies. Election officials who upheld the vote in favour of Joe Biden faced threats of violence. Pinny Sheoran is a voting rights advocate in Maricopa County. She is the president of the nonpartisan League of Women Voters of Arizona. Pinny, good morning.

PINNY SHEORAN: Good morning. And thank you for inviting the league. [MG: Well], just based on your conversation.

MG: I'm glad to have you here. How are you feeling a day before the big vote?

PINNY SHEORAN: We are we are hopeful that every voter who has been who is eligible to vote does cast their vote. We are hopeful that the voters will be able to cast their votes safely. Over 50% have already voted using our early voting systems. And we anticipate to have a heavy rush today because there is early voting today. And we also anticipate approximately maybe 300,000 people to vote on election day in Maricopa County.

MG: One of the reasons why I asked you that is because of what happened in 2020. We just got back from that part of the country. We were down there just a couple of weeks ago, talking with voters. How do you make sense of what happened in 2020 in Maricopa County?

PINNY SHEORAN: I think what happened in 2020 in Maricopa County, was the direct manifestation of a lie that was never proven and more importantly, a lie that continues to be repeated. In 2020, as that lie built up to a crescendo during the election, there were enough actors who had powerful positions, who could amplify their lie through the bully pulpit of their own positions and utilise their political power to not just amplify the lie, but to rile up those that they had fed the lie to and then subsequently use the systems to, to validate that lie, if you will, through, you know, not just claiming voter fraud in, you know, incorrect, but seizing election equipment and putting together a sham audit. So then, unfortunately, in the United States, not only is the lie continuing to be fed, but its impacts on individuals is being seen in ways that we did not anticipate in 2020. But we are prepared for in 2024.

MG: Well, given that, I mean, what are you most worried about in the next couple of days when it comes to people being able to cast their ballots?

PINNY SHEORAN: So, our biggest worry is the following. One is that people fear that there might be. Well, one fear is that people haven't turned in their ballots about 3, about 2.9, I would say almost 3 million ballots were requested in the mail. But we still have about 800,000 ballots that have not been returned. Our fear is that those ballots will not get turned in because people: A.) Don't want to stand in line and B.) Armed, you know, feel sort of fearful about showing up in lines in certain communities, in certain areas.

MG: I mean, the sheriff, the sheriff has said that there will be, you know, barriers and fences and designated protest spaces. But are people concerned that if they show up to vote, that they that they could face harassment waiting in line?

PINNY SHEORAN: Well, the people are fearful of that because one of the parties is calling out for that kind of behaviour. However, we have not seen that in the early voting. It is also possible that that kind of behaviour is being reserved for election day because all eyes are on Arizona and in, on this country on election day, and in most countries, early voting isn't really something that's the norm. So, you know, people are, the news media is looking for stories, if you will, on election day.

MG: I mean, one of the other things and again, we heard this when we were down in Arizona, one of the things that people are talking about is how long it will take for the result to come in. In Arizona, I mean, particularly in Maricopa County, people are warning that it could take a long time to tabulate the votes. Why is it going to take so long?

PINNY SHEORAN: First, it's two pages of a ballot, not one page book, okay? And there are, there are numerous, numerous races that are about 80 judges. There are about 15 ballot propositions. And then, of course, all the candidates. Tabulating two pages per voter will take longer. The amount of time it used to take to tabulate one page, just consider tabulating two pages. That's one thing. Second is, with a high voter turnout utilising the mail ballot, the process is validating and verifying the signatures of the people who turned in their ballot and then, taking the two ballots, two pages and tabulating them. So, you know, it's going to. So, let's put it in perspective this way. It's going to take approximately on an average, 15 minutes plus, maybe up to 30 minutes, depending on how prepared the voter is at the voting booth to complete the ballot, okay?

MG: That's a long time.

PINNY SHEORAN: Yes, it is a long time, which is why the people who have the mail in ballots have time to research and, you know, be an informed voter. Second is we keep forgetting that, you know, the number of people voting is increasing. And when you have that increase, of course, it's going to take a little longer to process all the ballots. Look, the league is very, very firm on this. Accurate ballot count is much more important than fast ballot count. Maybe the news media wants to have results immediately. What we want as results where every voter's vote counted. Because when you don't, you're silencing people and we will not stand for it as the League. And we will make sure that we take our place in society to fight and ensure that every vote is counted.

MG: Pinny, you have a wild few days ahead of you. Buckle up and thank you for, for speaking with us.

PINNY SHEORAN: Thank you so much for inviting me.

MG: Pinny Sheoran is the head of the League of Women Voters in Arizona. It's a nonpartisan, non-profit organisation. She was in Scottsdale in Maricopa County.

MG: Arizona's one place that people are paying close attention to. Another place that will be under a lot of scrutiny is Pennsylvania, critical swing state. Last week, Donald Trump made allegations involving voter registration applications in Lancaster and York counties in Pennsylvania. Officials in both places investigated batches of applications, dropped off by a paid canvassing operation and said some were illegitimate. Officials and voting rights advocates say that's not proof of fraud. It's proof that safeguards are actually working. Here is Neil Makhija. He is a Democratic commissioner in Montgomery County in Pennsylvania. He's been pushing back against Republican claims of election fraud.

SOUNDCLIP

NEIL MAKHIJA: There is a coordinated strategy to sow doubt in the election and to make people feel like the election is fraudulent so that they can justify attempting to subvert it again. If you look at the audits from 2020, we still have all the paper ballots. And anyone can examine the voter roll in terms of who voted and who didn't. And if there was actual fraud, you would be able to say, well, here's all these people who weren't supposed to vote, who did or here's people who say they voted, and they're not on the rolls. None of those things have happened. And it has been years in which these cases have been litigated in 60 different courtrooms. And all of it has been dismissed because there's no real evidence. The bigger problem is that anyone can say anything on the Internet and have no repercussions and no consequences.

MG: Amy Gardner is a national reporter for The Washington Post. She covers voting issues. Amy, good morning.

AMY GARDNER: Good morning.

MG: How messy do you think things might get in the next few days?

AMY GARDNER: I think things could get very messy. Obviously depends on the outcome. I think if Trump loses again, there's little doubt that he will contest the results. He said as much and he has continued, as you have documented in these last few minutes so well to claim fraud even before the vote count is in. He's claiming that fraud has infected this election. So, he's preparing, he's preparing to contest the result. I would say that the effort to overturn the result four years ago was chaotic and sort of sloppy and, of course, ultimately unsuccessful. But the Republicans around Trump, his allies and his operation have been preparing to do it differently this time around with a more coordinated effort with hundreds of lawyers, thousands of observers at polling locations meant to gather up, quote unquote, "evidence" that can be used in post-election challenges. All of that's been unfolding all year long. But on the other side, the authorities, election officials in the states and in the counties as well as Congress and federal authorities have been preparing as well and have shored up the guardrails. Laws have been passed to make it more difficult, for instance, for local election officials to not certify a result. Laws have been passed to make it a crime to intimidate voters where that was not already a crime. And so what one person told me, Jocelyn Benson, who's the Secretary of State in the state of Michigan, another important battleground this year, and the lead election officer there is that she's anticipating a scenario that she likened to little fires everywhere. And that's not to say that these are easy little fires to contain necessarily. It's just that even with the guardrails, there is this risk that so many flare ups will occur that it will become more difficult to contain. And that's particularly true, as your last guest said, about the misinformation and the false claims that are going to start circulating and that have already started circulating.

MG: Well, can I ask you about that? I mean, we again, was just down in the States for the last few weeks, and I heard heard wild stories, people talking about a secret Postal Service run by Joe Biden that is dealing with mail-in ballots, that there were buildings that were built that were empty, that people were sending ballots to. Nobody lives in these buildings, but the buildings were created by the, these are claims that were made straight-faced by, by people who, who truly believe them. How well-seated do you think those doubts are? I mean, to the extreme or to to the minor about the integrity of the electoral system?

AMY GARDNER: Look, this encapsulates where our country is right now, where half the country loves Donald Trump and half the country hates him and the half that love him believe what he tells them, and they believe what his allies tell him at them. And also, don't forget that one of his most powerful allies owns one of the largest social media networks on the planet, Elon Musk. [MG: Elon Musk.] And he is spewing nonsense on a daily basis and appears to have completely dismantled the mechanisms that X used to have to block and release false information on the platform. And so, it's a, it's an uphill battle for election officials to fight the misinformation when their tweets get 100,000 views. And Elon Musk's tweets get however many million views that they get. It, and so, it's real and people are believing it. And the officials are really perplexed that they, that that's the case. It's just the reality of our country's divisions right now.

MG: You've written a couple of really interesting pieces on the work that election workers will be doing in the next couple of days, saying that in some ways it's an impossible task because of the attacks on those who are meant to ensure that the process is robust and has integrity. And one of the things that you've written about is that throughout the country, local officials, these are your words, are taking elaborate measures to fortify election-related sites, including plans for snipers on a rooftop to protect key voting headquarters, panic buttons for election workers and surveillance drones buzzing overhead. Tell me a little bit more about what is going to be in place to protect those who are involved in the electoral system tomorrow?

AMY GARDNER: Yeah, I sort of, I sort of hate that description in a way because it sounds like some dystopian movie in the future, right? But that's where we are, unfortunately, right now. But the truth is that election officials and federal officials are feeling pretty good about physical security, physical safety, because they've taken these steps. A lot of them are precautionary. We've learned from the Department of Homeland Security that threats are up and not just domestic threats, but foreign threats. A lot of this misinformation that we just spoke about is actually coming from Russia. And we've learned that from our cybersecurity infrastructure folks in Washington. But we also know that the that the state and federal officials who run our elections are, are readier than they've ever been. So, I mean, that's a sort of a heartening fact, too, that folks are, that folks are ready for this. And we've seen isolated instances of violence and unrest in early voting locations. In Texas, for instance, a voter was told to take his MAGA hat off, which is law. I believe in every state, you're not allowed to wear election slogans into polling locations. And the voter slugged the guy who told him to take his hat off. And so, so tempers are going to flare. And that's definitely a worry. But there's also been a ton of conversations between local election officials and law enforcement. That's a double-edged swor--, sword in our country, especially in southern states with a history of racial discrimination and, you know, tense relationships between black communities and law enforcement. Election officials don't want armed cops at polling locations necessarily, but they do want systems in place where they can call in an emergency and where they can also ward off like, say, a swatting instance, like, let's say some bot farm in Russia tries to make swatting calls to election locations around the country or to 911 centres around the country. And you know, the cavalry comes in and disrupts voting. Well, some states have actually planned for that by distributing phone numbers of every single polling location chief polling worker so that the 911 centres can confirm that there's an emergency before they disrupt voting. That's the kind of stuff that's been happening everywhere.

MG: Let me just ask you, we just have a couple of minutes left. Quickly, one of the things you hinted at this is that Donald Trump's team has filed hundreds of lawsuits in advance of voting. What are they trying to accomplish with that?

AMY GARDNER: It's a good question because their lawsuits are failing. They're losing their lawsuits right now. They claim that they're going to continue to be able to challenge results through the courts after the election. Election officials who say he's, you know, who, who say it's all bunk, don't think those lawsuits are going to do any better after the election than before. But what is happening is that he's continuing to sow doubt in, in the public consciousness about the security of our elections. And that's a problem. I will say just really quickly as a counterpoint, I happen to believe after having covered voting for almost seven years now in this country as an institution, you know, elections as a, as a pillar of our democracy. I don't, I have come to believe that faith in elections is one of those pillars of our election security. It's sort of like the axiom that our institutions are only as strong as the people who run them. Our elections are only as strong and safe as as everyone thinks they are, right? And what we're seeing this year is historic, epic turnout. Almost 80 million Americans have already cast their votes. And it's not even election day yet. That's more than half the total that voted in 2020 total. And in some states, it's 80% of the 2020 total in a couple of the swing states, Georgia and North Carolina, that's huge. And that tells me that Americans do have faith in the systems, are comfortable going to their polling locations, do believe that their vote will be counted. And I'm hanging on to that right now.

MG: I have to let, I have to let you go. But I mean, will we know the result, do you think, at the end of this week?

AMY GARDNER: We might know at the end of this week, I doubt we'll know it tomorrow night.

MG: We'll be watching. Amy, it's great to talk to you. And perhaps given what happens over the next couple of days, we'll talk again. Thank you very much for this.

AMY GARDNER: Yeah. Take it easy.

MG: Amy Gardner is a national reporter with The Washington Post. She covers voting issues, of course, full coverage of what happens over the next several days here on CBC and on The Current as well. We will tell you more about that as the process unfolds. Your CBC News is coming up next. And then...

SOUNDCLIP

CELINE DION: I thought maybe five years ago, six years ago, maybe I'll never sing again. [Music: Theme fading in] What am I going to do?

MG: Well, she sang again, of course. After years away from the spotlight, Céline Dion moved many to tears with her comeback performance at the Paris Olympics. There's a new CBC podcast, trying to understand who she is and the appeal that she has had. It goes well beyond music. We will speak with the host, a superfan coming up in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current. Stick around.

[Music: Theme]

The enduring power of Celine Dion

Guest: Thomas Leblanc

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

[Clip of Céline Dion singing at the opening ceremony of the Paris Olympics.]

MG: It was a moment that many had been waiting for.

Unidentified: [Singing continues]

MG: Tiny figure appears in white standing at the Eiffel Tower during the Paris Olympics opening ceremony, belting out Edith Piaf's L'Hymne à L'Amour. And that voice is unmistakeable.

[Singing continues]

MG: It's a big, big moment. After being silenced by a rare illness called Stiff Person Syndrome, Céline Dion was back. She is, of course, one of the most enduring superstars in the world. But her ascent from small town Québec singer to global pop icon was an unlikely journey. A new CBC podcast explores her appeal, her impact and the culture that led to her rise.

SOUNDCLIP

CELINE DION: My dream is to be international star.

CELINE DION: I love to sing.

VOICE: No kidding.

CELINE DION: Who is going to stay a Francophone, Québecer all my life.

CELINE DION: All my life. I wanted to be the best of me. I am in charge.

MG: Thomas Leblanc is a Céline Dion superfan and the host of the CBC podcast Céline: Understood. Thomas, good morning.

THOMAS LEBLANC: Good morning, Matt.

MG: When I say superfan, you have a tattoo of one of her lyrics. Is that right?

THOMAS LEBLANC: I do. I have a song titled L'Amour Existe Encore. It's a French ballad from her 1991 Dion chante Plamondon. So, I have that song title tattooed on my left forearm.

MG: Why would you do such a thing?

THOMAS LEBLANC: I love this song. As a kid, my grandmother gifted me the cassette tape from the album Dion chante Plamondon, and also Unison, the first English album. And every night I would listen to it going to bed. So in this song specifically, it's a, you know, it's a song about the world being a mess, but love prevailing. And I've gotten that a few years ago, that tattoo. So it's, it still holds true, in my opinion.

MG: And so given that, we'll come back to the cassette in a moment. But given that, what was it like when you watched, people had rum--, there was rumours that she was going to be part of the opening ceremony, but nobody really knew until suddenly she appeared. What was that like for you?

THOMAS LEBLANC: Well, I watched the whole, the whole thing, and I just didn't know. I was like, is she going to sing? At the Louvre, the Arc de Triomphe, because they were the cameras were going all over Paris. But then when she appeared on the Eiffel Tower, I just started sobbing like deep belly crying. And I had just missed her. I missed her so much. I grew up, I never knew a world without Céline. So to, to see her appear after the illness, it was just very symbolic. I was just sobbing the whole, the whole, the whole song. And then I rewatched it several times in the days after.

MG: You never knew a world without her. I mean, this goes back to to your grandmother, right?

THOMAS LEBLANC: Yeah. I'm born in the mid '80s in Québec. Céline was already a star when I was born, so my early memories of her are from the late '80s when she, you know, as a young woman started to sing Dance Pop, which was very different from when she was singing in the early '80s when she was a young Catholic girl. And then, my grandmother gifted me these two cassette tapes when I was 5 or 6. And I even actually had seen the Unison tour with my grandmother at the time. I was very young and that made quite the impression on me.

MG: I'd said in the introduction that the ascent of Céline Dion from small town Québec singer to global pop icon was an unlikely journey. Go right back to the beginning. Her childhood was, is a big part of that unlikeliness in terms of how she ends up where she does. Right?

THOMAS LEBLANC: Well, she is just a product of her time. She's born in March 1968. I often joke that she's born almost, you know, about nine months after Expo 67 in Montréal, where, you know, Québec and Canada discovered the world. So, she's part of that opening to the world. She's the last of 14 children. As Canadians, we know her lore, right? We know her story. But people around the world, if some people in Paris didn't even know she spoke French, right? So, some people need to be reminded of that story. I relate to her also because my dad is the last of 11 chill children. So lots of, you know, French, Canadian Catholic families had similar stories. She was an accident. She knew it and she always joked about it. And she grew up in the '70s in Québec, you know, Québec nationalism was on the rise and the election of the PQ in '76. And she actually, I find it quite beautiful that she's probably watched the Olympics, the Montréal Olympics on TV in '76 as an eight year old. And, you know, in my imagination, maybe that moment sort of inspired her. Obviously, she was singing. She was quite musical. And she's recorded a demo tape with her other song written by her mother and her brother, Jacques that they sent to René Angélil, who, you know, met with her in '81 and the rest is history. She sang that first song and she performed it on TV and quite quickly in Québec and even France, she became a star. But it took, you know, a whole decade before she she made her English language debut.

MG: Can you just go back just quickly to I mean, you've hinted at this, what was going on in Québec society at the time when she was just? Because people are products of the place that they come from. [THOMAS LEBLANC: Yes.] And very much that that applies to her.

THOMAS LEBLANC: Well, the '60s in Québec is a period called the Quiet Revolution. So, it's a period where French Canadians finally were able to hold positions of power that were historically more whole, held by English language, you know, either in descendants from Scottish immigrants, English immigrants. So that's the '60s. And at the same time, so there's this emergence of a Québec showbiz community. So, with the rise of television and radio, obviously. So, there's this, there's a sort of like Québec celebrity culture is really born at that time. So, you can probably tell that she was watching that in the '60s and '70s. Well, '70s and that influenced her. So, that's on the sort of like culture side. On the politics side, as we know, the Parti Québécois was elected in Québec in '76. Céline started her career at the time of the first referendum, and I've always found that quite interesting because there was this like moment of: Should Québec stay in Canada, yes or no? And you have this young, this young lady singing in French and, and eventually she starts to sing in English, or that creates a conversation around language and around personal choice and around French culture and Québec that I always thought was quite fascinating.

MG: Part of that star culture is, and the industry that's around it is seen and heard in this podcast. You play a recording of Céline showing up in a Radio-Canada segment with her family when she was about 15 years old. Have a listen to this tune.

SOUNDCLIP

CELINE DION: [Clip of Cé.

Line singing at 15 years old]

MG: Thomas LeBlanc, what do you hear there?

THOMAS LEBLANC: Wow. Clearly a powerful voice. The strength of her family. I, I also you know, I think it was all there because she's, she's a product of her society and her culture. But I think her family's story. Her mom was always very present, very loving. Céline has always sung about love, romantic love. And when she was younger, it was actually like the sort of love in a more, in a broader sense. So, I think that's what she's singing. Part of the fun of making this podcast was also going through all the CBC and Radio-Canada archives that, you know, I hadn't ever heard before. So, that's what I hear. And her voice is also quite mature. She's about 15 at that time, '83, '84, and we can already recognise, you know, how she would sound much later in the '90s when we, you know, we've come to appreciate her on the global stage.

MG: You mentioned René Angélil, who was her manager, later her husband. What was the role that he played in, in creating her in some ways?

THOMAS LEBLANC: Well, it's interesting because in the late '70s, René is already a music manager. He's managing the biggest, one of the biggest music stars in Québec, Ginette Reno, who dropped him as a client. And then, you know, he had no client. He was 39. He was like kind of looking for a lifeline. And because he was quite successful already, the Dion family found him, sent him a tape, met with them. So at the beginning, there was this you know, they had a big age difference, like he's 39, she's 12. Like, it's, it's a big age difference. And we explored that on the podcast how when they sort of, you know, develop that relationship in the '80s, eventually she falls in love with him. But the family is not, is not for it, especially her mother. But he's, he's always been the strategist, the gambler, the business guy. We tell this story on the podcast on how he flipped a recording budget from '87, I think it was about $25,000 into almost an unlimited budget for her English debut. So, René was a gambler. You know, Vegas was a big gamble. So, he's, he's gambled a lot on her through his career, through her career. And, and this December, we're going to celebrate 30 years of their wedding, the big wedding, at the Notre-Dame Basilica in Montréal. And we also revisit that moment of how, you know, it was perceived back then that, you know, Québec's princess would marry her manager, who was 26 years older. And how the culture has changed so much in the last 30 years, it would be perceived very, very differently today if a woman that age would marry her, her manager, who's a, you know, 25 years older than her.

MG: Part of that strategy was releasing that first English language album in 1990. And in the wake of that, she's nominated for Anglophone Artist of the Year in Québec. There's a gala. She refuses to accept the award. Have a listen to to what she said in an interview shortly after that.

SOUNDCLIP

CELINE DION: They have just disqualified me of the 45 categories, because I sang in English. I was singled out because I sang in English, and I just didn't think it was fair.

ADRIENNE CLARKSON: Do you ever worry of the fact that at this particular time when people are very sensitive about Anglophone or Francophone? [CÉLINE DION: Yeah.] That your Francophone audience, your original audience who supported you in Québec and so on will think that you betrayed them because you're becoming an English-speaking star now and you're going to be Americanised, you're going to be Anglo...?

CELINE DION: Well, I'm always going to stay a francophone Québecer all my life. I'm proud of that. But I'm francophone who was able to sing in English today.

MG: It's Céline Dion speaking with Adrienne Clarkson, of course. You said that there was a conversation in the wake of that English language album. Conversation is one word. I mean, people have applied the word backlash to it as well. And you heard that there that that perhaps there was a sense of betrayal from some people. What was going on there?

THOMAS LEBLANC: Well, in 1990, there's a big political push in Canada and in Québec to bring back Québec into the constitutional fold, which ultimately failed. But this is part of the context when this is, this is happening, Céline is releasing her first English album. Céline has always has mostly straight away from, you know, federalist separatist politics. But I think what she's shown, what I'm hearing myself as I'm a millennial, right? So, what I'm hearing there is a sort of template on how so many people of my generation, French Canadians, are able to be proud to be Québecer and francophone, but also embrace the world, embrace, you know, English and American culture, but not forget who we are. And I think Céline, for people my age especially, is, you know, shown that example. But I know that for people her age or older, it was seen, it was perceived very, very differently at the time. And there was even a conversation on if people who spoke English in Québec were actually Québecers. And there was, I know there was also pushback from Adrienne in that interview. So, I think that's, that's very rich and it's interesting to revisit this, like over 30 years later.

MG: How proud of people were people in Québec, French from the Francophone community when she became an, an English superstar, an English language superstar?

THOMAS LEBLANC: Oh my God. Well, what I tried to explain to people is that what Céline has accomplished in the '90s being, you know, arguably one of the biggest English-language stars in the world, while also recording in French and releasing an album, D'eux, in 1995, which became the biggest-selling French album ever. She's become for, for Francophones in Canada, but also in Europe, she's become such a symbol of French culture and francophone culture. Then this is why they chose her in Paris, like Céline is associated to Vegas, but she is also associated to Paris. Having been, you know, there so many times playing Stade de France. So, francophones all over the world are extremely, extremely proud of her. And I believe that being from Canada and being from Québec has given her this way of playing with culture and adapting and understanding culture. And this is why she's been able to relate to people from so many different backgrounds in ways that I don't know that American stars are able because their culture is so hegemonic. And Céline just is just, you know, slightly on the other side being from Canada. And I think that's helped her actually on this rise to global, global superstardom.

MG: There's an interview in the podcast. This is when she is at kind of the peak of her success in the late '90s, a superstar around the world. Have a listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

CELINE DION: I travel the world and I don't even know. I haven't seen nothing. People, people ask me two questions. Tell me and tell us, and what do you think? And what do you think? And I don't know. I, I've done everything and I've done nothing, to be honest with you. I stopped going to school. I was 16 years old, I think, and I can't even remember. I don't know too much about life. I need to be with my family and friends. We want to try to have a child. I need to be home and be a woman. I need to know my husband. I'm 30 years old. I think I deserve a break.

MG: I'm 30 years old. I deserve a break.

THOMAS LEBLANC: So, that's something that's so funny to me because people need to realise that all the power ballads from the '90s were recorded when she was in her 20s and she's sometimes being regarded as like this, you know, older style. But, you know, by the time she was 30 in 1998, most of the sort of big '90s power ballads were already recorded. So, that's the first thing. And the second thing was, she's actually saying in this interview is she's talking about globalisation. She's talking about becoming this global superstar, seeing the world. But what what kind of value that actually has in her life and kind of getting back to her roots, which she's always, you know, made a really conscious effort sometimes I think, for kind of commercial and marketing reasons, but also I think also sometimes for personal reasons to stay connected to her background, to Québec. That being said, the late '90s is also when she permanently moved to America. Right? So, she moved to Florida first. Now, she lives in Las Vegas. So there's always this tension with Céline of like, okay, she's Canadian, she's French-Canadian, but she's lived in America for so long, and there's a way and what we hear in the interview is home is kind of where you just you make it or you decide to make it. And I find it interesting because she's said pretty much the same thing in a recent interview in 2024, that she had travelled the world and never actually seen it. So, there is a, she's also saying that fame is a sort of, you know, gold--, golden prison where you're kind of stuck in it. You watch, you see the world, but you can't fully participate. And I think that's what we saw this year is like a woman who's trying to break out of this and trying to be in the world and be with people. And that's what she's been, you know, saying in media interviews around the documentary. And now being in Paris was quite the symbol of that.

MG: How important was Vegas to, to who, who she is now and that, that series of Vegas shows?

THOMAS LEBLANC: Well, they changed what it meant to do. They changed what it meant to do a residency, absolutely.

MG: They you see, I mean, the result of that, Adele and U2 and all the bands and artists who have performed that, that can be traced right back to the fact that she set up shop there.

THOMAS LEBLANC: Yeah, exactly. And Céline was also part of a, I like to say, Québec takeover of Las Vegas in the 2000s were Cirque du Soleil and her were really instrumental in kind of re-establishing Vegas as a sort of tourist destination. So, you know, lots of Montréal and Vegas have really special connection for that reason. Like, a lot of Montréal people, they, they've worked in Vegas. They've visited Vegas a lot. So, I think she was partly responsible for that. And and, you know, I think, you know, she loves to be with people and this sort of like business of residencies allowed her to be with people as much as she could and not having to tour and not having to travel. It was a sort of ideal environment for her to raise her three kids. So, I think that's the, but she's definitely part of the Vegas history now.

MG: The podcast is, is called Céline: Understood. And I mean, if you think of that, that arc of that career, a career that was interrupted by the neurological disorder Stiff Person Syndrome and then this comeback at the Paris Olympics and questions as to what she'll do next. How do you understand what she means?

THOMAS LEBLANC: That's a big question. Our colleague Elamin Abdelmahmoud says on the podcast that she allows us to feel big emotions and to express big emotions and really add like a sort of light bulb moment when he said that, because I think that's true with Céline is her, she, her emotions seem so big. And when she sings, she's not, you know, trying to be cool or censoring herself or, you know, she's being like, this is a big emotion. I'm going to go as big as I can. And I think she's a vessel for a lot of people to, to live those emotions. I know that commercial music and pop music can be simplistic and it can simplify emotion, but I think in a way, Céline is able to thread that. And through her music and also her personality, she's very funny. She's very charming. I think she's very good at being a celebrity and she's just extremely, extremely watchable. And as I said, I've never known a world without her. And I think she's she's a sort of constant, reassuring presence. And I, you know, love to watch her doing interviews and perform. And I hope to see her live again. So, she's just this presence for so many people. And she emerged in the time of, you know, mono culture, daytime television and radio. And she's a, she's a remnant of that of that era in a way.

MG: That's a big question, but a great answer. Thomas, we'll leave it there. Thank you very much.

THOMAS LEBLANC: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Thomas Leblanc is the host of Céline: Understood. The final episode of this podcast drops tomorrow. You can listen to it and all the previous seasons of Understood wherever you get your podcasts.

Unidentified: [Music: Where Does My Heart Beat Now by Céline Dion]

MG: Here's your Monday morning slow dance. Céline Dion, Where Does My Heart Beat Now. Coming up after your regional update.

SOUNDCLIP

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: Time is running out for me and every day, I lose a bit more of my dignity in of the things that I can do alone.

MG: Sandra Demontigny has early onset Alzheimer's. She was diagnosed with that when she was in her 30s. She's been advocating for the right to give advance consent for medically assisted death. And last week, the province of Québec became the first and only province where that will be possible. We'll revisit my conversation with Sandra and get an update on how she's doing now in the wake of that decision. Coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current on CBC Radio and the CBC Listen app. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

And a Quebec woman wins her fight for a good death

Guests: Sandra Demontigny, Peter Tardif

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current. Québec has brought in a new law regarding medical assistance in dying or MAID. As of last week, it is the first and only province to allow advance requests for MAID. This law applies to someone with a serious and incurable disease that leads to incapacity, a disease like Alzheimer's, for example. Now, those individuals can request MAID while they are still capable of consent with the intention of receiving aid to die in the future. Sandra Demontigny has been fighting for this change for years. She was in her 30s when she was diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's. I spoke with Sandra last year about why advanced consent for MAID was so important to her. We'll get an update from her in a few moments. But first, here is my conversation with Sandra Demontigny from March of 2023.

SOUNDCLIP

MG: You have been living with Alzheimer's for the last five years. How are you doing today? How is your health right now if you don't mind me asking?

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: It sure is always getting worse. That's the bad thing with Alzheimer's. But I still have a good sense of humour and I'm still happy. It's true that I have more moments where I'm sad or I can cry, but it's part of this. And I'm really well surrounded.

MG: You sound like you're in a good place with people around you.

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: Yes, yes, yes. This is really good.

MG: When you say that it's getting worse, do you mind describing what that's like? What is getting worse for you?

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: When we think about Alzheimer's, we always think about memory loss. Memory is working in many ways in our body. It’s not just memory of the facts or in which year we are or things like that. Like I'm forgetting about when I'm doing a meal, for example, I'm doing something, but the second step, I forget what it is. So I go back to the recipe, then I go back to where I'm cooking. Oh, I forgot again. So I get back and get back. And for me now, doing the supper can take me like two hours when before it was like 20 to 30 minutes.

MG: Mm hmm.

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: And this is really hard for the way that I can feel about myself. And these are examples even that made me remember that I'm sick and that I'm getting more sick every day and every year. I think it's the worst part for me.

MG: Hmm. I think a lot of us think of Alzheimer's as a disease that impacts the elderly. Can you just explain, I guess, a little bit of how early onset Alzheimer's is different in many ways for you?

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: Mm hmm. It's different because I never lived with someone who is older. I only knew it when we were young because my dad had it and my grandma. And the thing is that we are in normally best time of our lives with our families and with work. And so my kids are still young but not that young. That's a good thing. But they are now 16, 20 and 24. It's a good thing that I became a mum when I was quite young because For some people in a case like mine, you could have a child of two or three years old, you know. So being a mom with young kids that are not adults, it's hard to see and it's hard to be so supportive with them. It's important I'm supportive with them, but it's asking a lot from me from the inside. I try not to show that much, but living with my illness and my difficulties and seeing the difficulties that they have to live because of that, I'm not really shy to tell them when I feel that something is harder for me or that I'm sorry they are talking to me but I don't know what they're talking about. So I feel free to say that. It's sad, but that's the reality. And if I try to hide it, it doesn't work really well. So better to see it.

MG: You saw this play out, you mentioned, with your father. He was diagnosed when he was 40 years old?

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: Yes. He got his diagnosis at 47.

MG: Okay.

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: But we knew that he had the disease long way before that. That's why you said 40 because for us, it was quite clear. But he didn't want to say it or to even acknowledge it. And at that time, it was not really known well, the young Alzheimer's disease.

MG: What was that like for you if you don't mind me asking? As his diagnosis and as his symptoms unfolded, as his daughter, what was that like for you?

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: Hard. Sorry, I'm a bit emotional about it.

MG: Yeah. That's okay.

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: It was hard. As I said, it was not really well known then, so we didn't have really good support of the health system around us, which is very different for me now. For me it's really good. My father is from the other generation, of course, and he was like either doing as if there was nothing happening wrong, or he was saying joking, oh, that's what I wanted to say or that's what I wanted to do, you know, just joking. And after that, it went to a different stage where it was harder to be in contact with him. I mean, in real contact. We can talk to him but he was sometimes thinking I was my mom, I was his mom, or that he didn't have a daughter.

MG: How did that experience inform what you're doing now in terms of being an advocate for advanced consent for medical assistance in dying?

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: It's everything.

MG: It's everything.

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: It's everything. It's because I went through this. My family went through this. And a lot of times, I tell myself and my mom and my brother that I would never, never, never want to live something like that because of the dignity, is how we say that, because my father, he was not talking about his dignity because it was just too far. But I knew that if he could see himself, he would be really shy and sad about that and he would not want to live like this. And now that I was able to see how it would be if I would get as far as him, I really, really don't want to live that. And I don't want it for my children either.

MG: It's really difficult to speak about, but you've been very upfront and very vocal in pushing the government on this, in speaking for people who want the right to choose when they die. Why is that so important for you to speak out in the way that you have publicly?

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: I really think that just talking about the subject without seeing what it is to live with that, I'm not sure you can really understand. And there's a lot of people who say that I disagree with that. Yes. But if you just listen to what I have to say and what the other people that live with and will be living with that, you can feel that it's terrifying, you know.

MG: And that if people knew what you knew, that they would understand that.

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: I think they would have a lot to be able to understand. But, you know, there's some things that came from our values. And there's some people that will never be reached by a story like mine. And I think that's fine too. And I don't want everybody to be the same opinion as mine. I just want to be able to have the choice to quit life when I think it will be the good time. And the other thing is that what I'm doing now, because at first I was not sure that it was a good thing to talk in public about this because I could have a repercussion from this, but I needed to make sense with what's happening to me. And because first, there's no sense. When you just think about it, there's no sense to make with it. But to talk about it, to talk about dignity, To think about MAID, that makes sense for me. And it's easier to walk in my illness with sense. So it gives a sense of purpose now for my life. Yeah.

MG: So you have made an official request, but this is a request that has to be made again every three months. Is that correct?

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: Yeah, that's it.

MG: And so in some ways, you're waiting for the government to pass this amendment to the law.

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: Yes, you're right. Because for now, I have to as you said, do it every three months.

MG: To renew that request.

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: Yes. Yes. And I have to be able to consent when I will receive it. It is like the request as someone that has cancer, for example, someone who can consent, you know. And what I would like is to do anticipated consent.

MG: In case you are unable to give that consent because the disease progresses.

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: Yeah.

MG: Do you worry about that, that you would have this request, but that perhaps you wouldn't be able to meet that threshold of consenting because the illness has progressed?

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: Yes, I know it's possible. And that's why I'm talking a lot with media and with politicians too to try to…

MG: To get it moved forward.

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: Yes, that it moves forward. It's for sure, my condition is getting worse every week. So I wish that it would be possible. But if it's not, I would have to do it the other way we talked earlier. But I can lose a few months or maybe, I don't know, a year with that.

MG: Can I ask you what you would do if the bill isn't passed in time for you to be able to make that consent and have that request approved?

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: The anticipated you mean?

MG: Yeah.

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: I will have to go when it's time to go. Because if I'm still waiting in that I cannot consent, I don't want to stay stuck in my body and just waiting for years and just waiting to die. Because with my dad, it went quite, quite fast, not that fast. But his mum, my grandmother was for seven years in foster care, just not moving from her bed and just looking at the ceiling all the time. And she wasn't able to talk. Just doing sounds like moaning or things like that. And I don't want to take the risk. So if I have to leave sooner, I would have to do it. That's it.

MG: That's a really difficult thing to think about as well.

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: Yes, it's hard and it's frustrating because for me, it's hard to understand how a government, like someone from outside my life, can take such a decision that I am eligible or I'm not. And I can lose a few years of life because I will have to quit sooner just to avoid the illness going too far.

MG: And when you say, if you don't mind me asking, when you say that, that you would have to quit sooner, that you would have to leave earlier, I mean, have you thought about that? Have you thought about what that would mean?

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: The thing is if we don't have the anticipated, I will have to be able to consent. If I lose that, I don't have anything I can do more than just wait until I die in, I don't know, many years. And so I will have to do the sacrifice to lose a few years. But for me, the risks to be like a body who is waiting to die, it's just something that for me, it's impossible. I don't want to live that. I don't want my family, my friends to see that either because it's really hard. When it got harder with my grandmother, nobody was going to see her more, even her children, because they said it was too hard for them. I'm thinking and I'm not judging them. I can understand. But there's a lot of people that think that people with Alzheimer's disease, they don't see what is going on. They are not there. Their minds are not there. But I don't believe that. As I told you, I don't want to take the chance, to just be the one looking at the ceiling all the time and crying and be aggressive and being trapped. You know what, attached. You can be attached. And my father, he was attached like this.

MG: Strapped down, essentially. Restrained.

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: Yeah. That’s it. Restraint. The arms, two legs and the chest. People who have Alzheimer's, they don't really understand what's going on. So he was fighting back. I don't see what’s worth Living a life like that.

MG: Let me ask you one last question, which is, again, a hard question to ask, but I bet you've thought about it. What would the end of your life in the best case scenario look like for you? Have you thought about what a good death would be?

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: I thought a lot about this. My house is near a river.

MG: Mm hmm.

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: In the backyard, there's a river. So I want it to be just outside, near the river, in the summer, with bright sun and with my children, my close family, my best friends, my cats, and just being there with the sun outside. I think that would be the best. My choice is not to die in the hospital. And, you know, I want it to be more personal and more intimate.

MG: That's Sandra Demontigny. I spoke with her in March of last year and as we mentioned, as of last week, Sandra and other Quebeckers will be allowed to submit an advanced request for medical assistance in dying. The CBC's Peter Tardif was in our Quebec City studio with Sandra last year. During that conversation, he was there for support and he caught up with her again last week after Québec had announced the change in law. He joins us now. Peter, good morning to you.

PETER TARDIF: Good morning, Matt.

MG: It's wild listening back to that conversation and her frame of mind in terms of what she, what she wanted and the clarity with which she was looking for that and asking for that. In the wake of that, how was she feeling about this change in the law? As I mentioned, you caught up with her last week.

PETER TARDIF: Yeah. And so I saw her the day the new rules came into effect. She was very happy. I'll say relieved. Have a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: I feel I am more peaceful now. I'm thinking that I can just relax and live my time with my dear ones and always thinking are. Thinking what I can do to help the cause, you know? And. And I forget what I was talking about. Okay.

PETER TARDIF: When you say peaceful. [SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: Yeah.] Why peaceful? What makes this peaceful for you?

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: It's because the time is running out for me. And every day, I lose a bit more of, of my dignity in of the things that I can do alone. And this is hard to, to see for me. For my, my family, too.

MG: She says the time is running out for her. What is this change in the law going to mean for for Sandra?

PETER TARDIF: Well, first of all, it gives her more time. She says she doesn't have to worry that she'll lose the ability to consent practically. She'll need to submit a new request for MAID and she'll have to be explicit about when she wants assistance to die, since she may not be competent to make that decision at that time. And this is what she was thinking about.

SOUNDCLIP

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: I have to write at what time with which symptoms, what is my limit and when it's time to, to do it. And my, my... criteria? Yeah, criteria? [PETER TARDIF: Yep, criteria] are about living with dignity. For me, what is dignity for me? So, I want to be able to live a life without needing somebody to take care of me most of the time. They can help me with little things as they are doing now, but I want to be able to do my needs, like eating and going to the bathroom and sleeping by myself. I can have a little bit of help, but I don't want that. Someone is doing almost everything for me. Because if I'm alone that I wouldn't be able to do anything of this, you know?

MG: So as a Québecer, Sandra can do this. But for now, this is complicated because for now, it's still technically against the law. So, how is that going to work?

PETER TARDIF: No, you're right. So the Criminal code does not allow for advance consent. But Québec has said it will not prosecute doctors who provide MAID under those circumstances. And the federal government has said it will not challenge Québec's law. In fact, last week, Federal Health Minister Mark Holland said the Federal Government will launch consultations on changing the law and Sandra hopes that they do.

MG: In the meantime, we first met her here on The Current last March. It's been a year and a half ago. How is she doing now?

PETER TARDIF: She's noticing that her condition is getting worse. She was having difficulty, more difficulty finding words in English, maybe more forgetful. She told me that, you know, she makes mistakes sometimes. That makes her angry. She's had to leave that home by the river to move into a place now where she gets more care.

MG: That was the place. That was the place that she wanted to be at when she died. [PETER TARDIF: Exactly.] Right by the river.

PETER TARDIF: Yeah. And so her disease has gotten to the point now where she needs to have nurses around. And she still has definite hopes, though, about how she wants to die.

SOUNDCLIP

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: I want to be with my family, with my, my cat. Something really cosy, simple and just that we remember. Nice to have souvenirs together. And I know who I want to be there. So, my three kids. But if one or 2 or 3 of them don't feel good or free about it and they don't want to be there, I wouldn't respect that. That's now, I'm starting to cry. My boyfriend will be there. My best friends, too. I think my brother would be there, too. It's hard for him because he doesn't have this, and I'm the one who has it. And I'm really happy for him. It would not be nice if we put the two together sick at the same time. But for him, it's not easy. I, I don't know if I said my cat, but [cross talk] [PETER TARDIF: Yeah, you did].

MG: She's a remarkable person and has a real sense of of what she wants and must feel some, some satisfaction in this change in the law in Québec. I've been thinking about her since we did that interview a year and a bit ago, and I'm glad to get this update. Peter, thank you very much.

PETER TARDIF: You're welcome.

MG: Peter Tardif is a journalist for CBC Radio in Québec City.

MG: That's the current for this Monday. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. Sandra Demontigny talked about her love of music. She's a huge music fan and a huge fan in particular of the Québec supergroup, Les Cowboys Fringants. The band's lead singer, Karl Tremblay, died of cancer last November, and before he died, the band played this epic show on the Plains of Abraham in Québec City. Sandra and her family were there.

SOUNDCLIP

SANDRA DEMONTIGNY: I was already sick with my illness. It's not the same, Elizabeth. It doesn't matter. You know, It's just I could see his dignity, his happiness of being there. We could feel his happiness and is just wish to live the moment very intense, fully. I often think about him and what he had to live because there's the similarity.

MG: Last night, Les Cowboys Fringants' "La fin du show" won the Song of the Year at the ADISQ awards, which are Quebec's Grammys. The band also won Group of the Year. So we're going to leave you with that song from that album. The last album that the group and singer Karl Tremblay recorded. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll see you tomorrow.

Speaker 3: [Music: La fin du show by Les Cowboys Frigants]

Monday, November 4, 2024 Full Transcript

Social Sharing