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The Current Transcript for November 25, 2024

Host: Peter Armstrong

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: It's been pretty tough because I've applied to sort of like 80 plus jobs at this point, and often you don't even hear back.

PETER ARMSTRONG: Youth unemployment reaches a 10-year high as the economy struggles to find its footing. We'll look at who's getting left behind. In 30 minutes, we'll speak with two experts on what's happening, why and how to turn it around. And then...

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MATS SUNDIN: Players, I don't care if they grew up in Toronto. Until they put on the blue and white jersey and actually represent the Maple Leafs, it's impossible to understand what it means.

PETER ARMSTRONG: Well, Mats Sundin sure understands what it means. The former Leaf and Vancouver Canuck has a new book out, chronicling his journey from Sweden to the NHL. We'll hear my conversation with him in an hour's time. But first, Nova Scotians go to the polls tomorrow. The PC Party in that province is looking to extend its hold on power, and capitalise on the deep unpopularity of a Liberal leader who's not even running in this election. Good morning. I'm Peter Armstrong, sitting in for Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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Nova Scotians head to the polls

Guests: Michael Gorman, Samantha Crowell, Nolan Greenough

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TIM HOUSTON: We all know that governments sometimes pick a pick a date that they think benefits them. Snap election high in the polls.

PA: That was Nova Scotia Progressive Conservative leader Tim Houston, not long after being elected as premier in 2021. Extolling the virtues of his government's first order of business in office, passing a law, setting a fixed election date in that province. Houston and his party decided their new law would send voters to the polls on July 15th of 2025. Except it didn't. Houston called the snap election late last month, and voters will be casting their ballots tomorrow, with polls suggesting the PC's are on their way to a healthy majority. Michael Gorman covers politics for the CBC in Nova Scotia. Michael, good morning.

MICHAEL GORMAN: Good morning.

PA: Tim Houston sounded pretty committed to a big state in that clip. What happened?

MICHAEL GORMAN: Well, he was committed to it until he wasn't. I mean, it was last June that he first mused about maybe not necessarily sticking to the date, depending on what's going on. And what we saw after that was him ramping up something that he was doing fairly steadily throughout his mandate anyway, which is lashing out at Ottawa. There are a bunch of issues where his government and the federal government have not exactly been simpatico. And he started ramping those up and discussion about those. But he also spent a lot of time trying to tie Nova Scotia Liberal leader Zach Churchill to his federal counterpart, the Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, to the point that, you know, in the dying days leading up to the election call, he sent out a fundraising letter that was lumping the two of them together and showing that while the two of them supported a price on carbon, he did not. He's played that to a fairly successful degree based on what we're seeing in polls. And then, you know, really in the lead up to the election, we also saw the traditional things governments do in the lead up to a snap election that Mr. Houston, during the debate in that clip you played, suggests that he was looking to avoid with a fixed election date.

PA: You know, and I want to get to this tactic that not just, we're not just seeing in Nova Scotia, but across the country of tying liberal provincial leaders to Justin Trudeau and the federal Liberals. But just still on the, the fixed election date, the other parties saw an oppor--, opportunity to be critical here. They went after Houston for going back on his word. It doesn't seem like the public has cared very much about that. How has, has he sort of combated that?

MICHAEL GORMAN: Well, it was an issue for the first few days, largely because he had to respond to breaking this, this promise. And I think that what happened was that he and his team weighed the pros and cons of having to deal with that in the early days of an election. And they calculated that really, after a few days, he'd stop getting a lot of questions about that because the focus would shift to policy planks. And, and that's what happened. And, and frankly, I think that the general public, at least the people who are going out to vote, have bigger fish to fry. You know, we have major structural issues with the health care system. There are major issues with the housing system in this province as there are across the country. And I think that those are the things that are front of mind to people as opposed to the date of this election.

PA: And as you say, it has sometimes felt like, like Houston's running more against Justin Trudeau than Zach Churchill. What, what have the PC's been able to do to tie the provincial Liberal leader to the federal Liberal leader?

MICHAEL GORMAN: Carbon tax is the thing that he has pressed upon the most. And what's interesting about it is Zach Churchill is on record both in the legislative chamber and out in public many, many times saying that he doesn't agree with the carbon tax either. The difference between the two of them when it comes down to that is Mr. Churchill has recognised that the Federal Government has the right at the moment to impose a carbon tax if provinces won't put their own price on carbon. And Mr. Houston has resisted any type of consumer price on carbon. And so, rather than having that nuanced policy conversation, Mr. Houston has taken a very firm view that no price is the only thing he's willing to support. And largely, I've got to say, that's been successful in a province where there are a lot of people who are mindful of the price of a litre of gas because they live in rural communities that require them to drive and fishermen, fishermen who require fuel to fill their boats and so on.

PA: And in case anybody across the country has forgotten, it was the issue around carbon tax on home heating that really blew up in Nova Scotia. I guess that was the end of last year.

MICHAEL GORMAN: Yes, it was. And it wasn't long after that that the feds backtracked on that and put a holiday on that.

PA: Okay. So, we've got that sort of spread of running on the one hand against Churchill and, you know, sort of tying him to Justin Trudeau. The tactic seems to have worked in Nova Scotia, but like last month, right next door in New Brunswick, voters elected a Liberal government. They're throwing the PCs out of office. Do you have a sense of how these two elections have differed from one another?

MICHAEL GORMAN: Well, I think they're different in the sense of, of who was looking for re-election. Mr. Higgs was looking for a third term and frankly, was not very popular. Mr. Houston's looking for only his second term and by all accounts, has been popular throughout that first term. Those first three and a half years, he's been well ahead of his rivals when it comes to polling around preference for Premier. And so, as one person I was speaking to yesterday put it, Mr. Houston's not lost the new car smell with voters. And that to me is the big difference.

PA: There are some really big and really important issues in this election. And I was down at my old alma mater of Acadia University in the Annapolis Valley last month where people still talking about health care and the hospital in that part of the province. The PC's campaigned initially on fixing health care. That was last time around. Is it, can we even assess how they've done? Because they're not even all the way through their first term?

MICHAEL GORMAN: Well, it depends on who you ask. Like, I very much view this as a person-by-person case. If you're somebody who and there are many people who in this province don't have a family doctor or you're waiting a long time for a specialist referral, or as one woman who made national news noted, you're fighting the province in court to cover costs to get treatment out of province. You're probably not feeling very good about the health care system. But people are getting attached, and the Tories have created new entries to at least seeing someone. It may not be a family doctor, but could be a pharmacist. They've expanded scope of practice for most health care professionals. If you're fairly healthy and you're benefiting from that, then you're probably feeling better about the state of the system. I mean, the fact is, is Tim Houston's done one very clever thing here. And what he's done is he's positioned himself, and the way he's approached the health care system in a way that prevented his opponents from characterising him and his handling of the system first. He's said all along it's going to take time and it's going to cost a lot of money. He shied away from the suggestion that maybe he could get this done in just one mandate. And so, he was talking about that in that context, even before his opponents could jump on him for the state of the system. And so, I think that by the time they did, the general public really in the last few years here has finally clued in to the idea that health care is not just potentially in trouble in Nova Scotia. The problems we face here are national and international problems. And so, the idea that anybody's going to fix it in one term seems fairly far fetched.

PA: The other big issue that I've been reading about is, is the population boom in Nova Scotia. You guys had just a flood of people. I know tons of people from Ontario that have moved out to Nova Scotia since the pandemic. And I've been reporting on the housing crisis across the country for the last little while. And nationally, we started to see rents come down. Nova Scotia is an outlier in that rents are way up. How are the parties lining up to address those sort of co-mingled issues there?

MICHAEL GORMAN: Well, this is a very interesting thing to me in this election, because while on health care, Tim Houston's been able to use the line, I didn't break it, but I'm working on fixing it. What we've seen with our housing market here really has exploded during his mandate, and yet there doesn't seem to be a lot of blowback for him on that front. Mr. Houston's housing policies and his platform are kind of few and far between. Basically, what he has said is we created a housing strategy in our first mandate. We've planted the seeds. We're going to see the benefits of those over the next mandate. Give us more time to see it through. The Liberals and the NDP, meanwhile, have argued that the PCs have done precious little to deal with, as you say, those stubbornly low vacancy rates and rents that really continue to go up despite the fact that the province has a rent cap. Both of the, both the Liberals and the NDP have talked about building much more housing, truly affordable housing, as they put it, as opposed to market rate, affordable housing. So, they've talked about expanding co-ops and partnering with non-profits to build more housing that's more in line with up to, and not exceeding one-third of a person's income. Now, whether or not that's going to work, I guess we'll see tomorrow. But polls indicate so far that they've just not really caught on with people on that issue.

PA: For sure, and just one last question, zooming out here, Michael. You know, we've talked about the anti-federal Liberal sentiment that the PC's are leveraging here. But what do you, what will you be looking for in the results of this election that will, might tell us something about the federal Liberals' chances in the province and Atlantic Canada more broadly when they eventually go to the polls sometime over the course of the next year?

MICHAEL GORMAN: I mean, personally, Peter, I don't think we need tomorrow's election to know how things are looking for the federal Liber--, Liberals in Nova Scotia. I won't presume to know as well what's going on in the other three Atlantic provinces as I do here. But I can tell you that party is not popular here right now and I would be surprised if they held a single seat after the next federal election.

PA: Alright. Lots to watch for. Michael, I really appreciate this. Thank you.

MICHAEL GORMAN: You're welcome.

PA: Michael Gorman covers politics for the CBC in Nova Scotia.

PA: Now, as you heard, from housing to health care, affordability to immigration, there's a lot for voters to grapple with as they head to the polls in Nova Scotia tomorrow. We have two voters with us this morning to share their thoughts. Samantha Crowell is a museum director and mother of two who lives in the lobster capital of Canada, Barrington, Nova Scotia. And Nolan Greenough is a mechanic and the youngest candidate to run for the office of mayor at the age of 23 in the recent Halifax municipal election. Good morning to you both.

NOLAN GREENOUGH: Hello. Hello.

SAMANTHA CROWELL: Good morning.

PA: No one. If I can, I'd like to start with you. How did Tim Houston's decision to call this snap election, how did that sit with you?

NOLAN GREENOUGH: I'm not a really big fan of it and, alright? Like it's, it was, what? His first thing when he got in office that he passed. And it just feels really dishonourable to like, turn around on that and, and yeah, and throw it out the window because it's advantageous, you know what I mean?

PA: I do. And so, if that sort of upsets you, does that sort of rank in as, as issues in this campaign, or what are you really focussed on in terms of picking your vote?

NOLAN GREENOUGH: I think, frankly, PC wasn't really on my radar to start with. I consider myself pretty left-leaning overall. My number one issue, like personally, you know, I'm a healthy young person. I don't really go to the doctor very often, so I'm lucky enough in that regard. But like, my number one issue is labour, and I haven't seen anybody really comment on that, like our, our rights as, as workers. And, you know, I think Nova Scotia has at least statutory holidays in the whole country, right? That makes it very difficult to get in, you know, to work if you, if you take a bus because the drivers are on holiday and, you know, you still have a full shift that day.

PA: Samantha, what about you? What are the key issues for you in this election?

SAMANTHA CROWELL: Well, near and dear to my heart is arts and culture. So, I work in the sector and I have seen one increase provincially for core funding in museums and urgent arts and culture organisations since, I think, 2008. So, that's very important to me because I recognise that we play a big role in tourism, and tourism being a $3 billion revenue industry in Nova Scotia and employing in excess of 50,000 Nova Scotians. So, we, that's my, that's right at the top of the pile. But I guess health care is, it would be a very close second.

PA: You're in Barrington. For those who don't know, it's right on the sort of southern tip of Nova Scotia, beautiful part of the province. Tell me about the community and what you're hearing about people, what they want out of this election.

SAMANTHA CROWELL: Things that I'm kind of hearing and I, my, my scope isn't quite as broad. Kind of keep to myself a little bit. But health care seems to be number one, cost of living again, right up there. We s--, I see a lot of comments online. I hear a lot of comments, you know, just in the, without, without, throughout the community. You know, health care more access to doctors, investing in our rural hospitals and, and then, just cost of living you know food security sustainable affordable housing. That's, that's the most that I'm hearing.

PA: You say you like to keep to yourself. But I do have to ask, I see in my notes here, have I got this right? Did you dress up as a lobster last week for an event? What was going on there?

SAMANTHA CROWELL: Yes. So, we, we lit our lobster pot Christmas tree. I think we were the first community in Nova Scotia perhaps to have a lobster pot Christmas tree, because we're the lobster capital of Canada. And we have Lucy the Lobster, who is our little mascot. She kind of replaced the ground--, on Groundhog Day, she tells us we're going to see more winter and early spring. And we have a brand new costume for Lucy. And because my very close friend is in charge of, of all of the marketing for the municipality Barrington. She asked. I answered. And yes, I spent a couple of hours in a very warm lobster costume, making children smile. So, I'm, I'm OK with it.

PA: Well, good for you. Alright. Glad to hear it. Just sticking with you for a second, Samantha, Michael Gorman, I don't know if you heard him talking about, part of our conversation's about how the PC's really campaigned on health care the last time around. How would you rate their progress?

SAMANTHA CROWELL: Personally, I'm pleased with what I've seen so far. As for, I have a daughter who is a nurse at the Children's Hospital in Halifax, and so she's, you know, pretty happy with, with the investments that she's seen. There's still, you know, room to grow. That was, he was honest about that from the beginning. I've seen a lot of changes with, you know, bonuses to, [inaudible] to stay in, you know, the LPN tuition waiving, things like that. So, I'm encouraged by what I've seen. It's the most that I've seen since I moved back here in 2007. And we've had every party in power at one point or another throughout that. So I just, you know, doctor retention is, is big for this area and it's investing in our, you know, health care locally because I find that a little bit frustrating here, but I do see improvements.

PA: Nolan, housing affordability has obviously been a huge one. Nationally, low vacancy rates and high rents in, in your province. How has that personally impacted you and your community in Halifax?

NOLAN GREENOUGH: Well, when we were kind of, I used to live in Spryfield a few years ago with my mother. It's kind of like a low-income area. And as, as we started to see more people, more and more people entering, you know, the city and the province, rent rates went up, right? And all of a sudden, our little unit that we were paying $700 and change for, for three bedrooms, the one next door to us was going for, I think, $1,800 a month. Wow. Right. And when you have that on the go, you kind of you know, you worry every day if the rent cap is going to go away and you can't afford to live here anymore. Right. Now, we're lucky to be out of that now. But I know that we're not the only ones that have had to deal with that. And there's certainly people dealing with that and worse these days. Right? So, yeah, like personally, that has been something that's impacted me a lot. Like, I'm lucky to be out of it now, but it's not a comfy situation seeing it happen, right?

PA: And if I've got this right, you managed to buy a home at 22 years old. How did you pull that off?

NOLAN GREENOUGH: So, what we did was it was me, my fiancée, my mom and my brother. The four of us went in together on a rent-to-own agreement, which essentially it, you pay a little bit extra every month and that goes into a down payment for, you know, whatever term down the line. So, it took the four of us to put in on a one storey house in Dartmouth, I believe the final sale price is going to be around $500,000.

PA: I want to ask you something. No, you just ran in the local election, running for mayor in that election. Can you just give me a sense of how engaged you think voters are right now, especially young voters in the province?

NOLAN GREENOUGH: In this particular election, I can tell you I haven't really seen like anything about it outside of my very specific, like, political followers that I have from, from like the mayor stuff, right? But, you know, like a lot of this, like, kind of snuck up even on me. Like, I didn't know until this past week that election day was tomorrow, right? Like, a lot of this stuff wasn't really put in our face the way that we expect things to be put in our face this, you know, this day and age, right? So, I'd say that engagement is very low on that, at least among young people, especially with the voter cards not coming out.

PA: I wonder if I can put you both on the spot. Nolan, how are you planning to vote tomorrow?

NOLAN GREENOUGH: I'm personally planning to vote NDP. There's, there's definitely a place for, you know, centre and right parties, but I don't that, I don't think that's where I want my vote to be.

PA: Samantha, what about you? Have you made up your mind?

SAMANTHA CROWELL: Not completely. But if, if I'm honest, I would say that I'm leaning in the direction of the successes that I have seen, and the engagement with our local MLA and our neighbouring local MLA who used to be our MLA. I'm quite trusting of them, and I'm pleased with what I'm seeing. But again, that doesn't align to federal politics for me. I am, I am really quite left-leaning, so.

PA: Gotcha. Listen, thank you both. This has been really helpful for me to wrap my head around what's going to happen there tomorrow. Really appreciate it.

NOLAN GREENOUGH: No worries.

SAMANTHA CROWELL: Thank you very much.

PA: Samantha Crowell is a museum director in Barrington, Nova Scotia. Nolan Greenough is a mechanic who lives in the Woodlawn area of Dartmouth. The CBC News is next, and then...

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TIKTOK VOICE: Please, Canada, start hiring again. Do something I can't keep spending all day on Indeed, and all day handing out resumes.

PA: [Music: Theme fading in] Searching for a job is never easy, but it's particularly hard for young people in Canada right now. The cost of high youth unemployment. That's coming up in six minutes' time. I'm Peter Armstrong. You're listening to The Current.

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High youth unemployment in Canada

Guests: Timothy Lang, Armine Yalnizyan

PA: I'm Peter Armstrong. You're listening to The Current.

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TIKTOK VOICE: Please, Canada, please start hiring again. Do something. I can't keep spending all day on Indeed, and all day handing out resumes and all day calling people and all day emailing people for no response.

PA: A desperate plea on TikTok. It's a frustration shared by many young adults. According to a report by Deloitte and Kings Trust Canada, youth unemployment in this country is at a 10-year high of 14.5 per cent. More than 800,000 people under the age of 29 are unemployed.

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VOICE 2: Why is it so hard to find a bloody job? I've been looking for three months and I've had one interview. Out of all the places have applied, I've had one interview and it didn't go anywhere. Like, what do I need? Like, do I need a Ph.D.? Do I need like, what do what more do I need? I'm applying for jobs that I'm fully qualified for and overqualified for.

PA: Jose Calderon can relate. He's 22 and a psychology student at the University of Toronto. He's been applying for retail and general labour jobs in between school semesters for four years, and still can't find a job.

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JOSE CALDERON: I used to do a lot of detailed resumes and cover letters. And I was just throwing stuff at the wall, seeing what sticks. Like, trying to send out two resumes a day. The typical experience is just seeing what jobs align with my experience and then, applying for them and then just not sharing anything back. I even like, all that, I didn't get the job or for an interview, either.

PA: And the radio silence from potential employers hasn't been easy to handle.

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JOSE CALDERON: I am a university student and everyone needs a job to get money to survive in Toronto, so I feel very demoralised waiting for so long to get a job, and just not hearing anything back.

PA: I'm joined now by two guests. Timothy Lang is the CEO of Youth Employment Services, or YES. And Armine Yalnizyan is an economist and the Atkinson Fellow in the Future of Workers. Good morning to you both.

TIMOTHY LANG: Good morning.

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Good morning.

PA: Armine, if I can start with you, youth unemployment hovering around 14 per cent. What does that rate tell you about the state of the economy right now?

VOICE 2: It is. It sucks. [PA: Yeah.] But it's also turning down from where it was just in the course of the summer. So, it's starting to ease again down to levels that we hope will be significant across the country and bring us back to levels that were actually historically low just before the pandemic hit.

PA: Tim, your agency works with these youth. What are the young people out there telling you right now?

TIMOTHY LANG: Yeah, I mean, we've been around since 1968, so we've seen everything, you know, the boom economies when unemployment is low and the bust, you know, recessions when it's high. So, this is a bit troubling because we're not in a recession. We know some of the reasons why it's high, but it's been difficult. We see, we serve over 15,000 a year and partners right across the country. And, yeah, they're like some of your recorded messages. A lot of them are desperate. They come to us in desperation.

PA: Walk me through some of those reasons. What, what is happening that's driving this right now?

TIMOTHY LANG: Well, one of the big ones is Canada is always a great place for new Canadians. And obviously, we know, as economists will tell you, it's great for our economy. But we took a record number influx of I think it was close to 1.1 million. And again, long-term, that will likely help our economy and create more jobs. But in the short term, that extra competitiveness was really difficult for a lot of young people because a lot of the new Canadians were between the ages of sort of, you know, 18 to 35.

PA: Armine, what's your sense of, of where this is coming from with an eye towards what we can do about it?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Well, I just want to double down on what Tim just said, because we are looking at record levels of business failures most recently. And it's these small businesses that tend to hire young people and some of the bigger ones, like, you know, the chain retail stores or the chain fast food places are seeing falling volumes because higher interest rates have meant people are spending more on basics like groceries and, and rent rather than going out getting fast food. So, yes, adding, you know, pouring all these available people that would, are dying to do anything for cheap labour was absolutely an issue. But that's been dialled back significantly, and we are left with the problem of business failures. In fact, the whole business ecosystem is kind of teetering around right now. One of the reasons why that Christmas gift giveaway was supported by small businesses is because they need people to come shopping in their stores. That's why it's called Black Friday. This is their chance at this point of the year to make, like basically to close the books, to be even. And unless these businesses stay afloat, there will be fewer jobs for young people.

PA: Armine, you told me once years ago, a stat that has just sort of locked itself in my brain that small and medium-sized businesses in Canada make up something like 70 per cent of private sector employment. Do you think people actually understand the importance of those small and medium-sized businesses and keeping employment afloat across the country?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: I think they get it, but everybody's looking for the cheapest price possible. Everybody's living by the Zellers, you know, [PA: Right] the lowest prices, the law rule. And look where that got Zellers.

PA: Fair enough. Tim, what typically, what kind of jobs are we seeing offered to youth?

TIMOTHY LANG: I mean, there's a whole range, obviously, but I mean, a lot of the entry-level positions are still sometimes their first job in hospitality or retail and, you know, added to the, the influx in competition, the federal government made, I think, a slight error in allowing temporary foreign workers to take those jobs. Normally, temporary foreign workers are needed in areas like agriculture or certain manufacturing where Canadians just won't, you know, do those jobs. But they open it up to hospitality and retail because they were lobbied after COVID, because there was demand. But I think that was a mistake. And that shut the door on a lot of, a lot of youth.

PA: Tim, I had an electrician buy the house the other day to fix an outlet and I was getting to talk to him about, he did a program to start his training right in high school, got work almost immediately out of high school, has finished now his apprenticeship, he's making really good money. And it made me wonder then why there aren't more good-paying jobs that allow young people to save for homeownership, plan for their future. Where are those jobs, and what do we need to do to get these kids back into those?

TIMOTHY LANG: Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. And your example is, is a great one because you look at the best countries in the world with the lowest youth unemployment like Germany, and they have programs embedded in, in their educational system where they have apprenticeship programs. And, and, you know, in Ontario, I know the Ford government's starting to do that. And I think long-term, that will be helpful because there's still lots of jobs in the trades and are high, high-paying jobs. But certainly looking at other areas like reskilling, like even at yes, our organisation, we do programs in cloud computing or cybersecurity, you know, areas where we know that there's employment. So, it's certainly looking at areas where there are jobs or jobs of the future and making sure that we've got training available.

PA: One of the things that we talked about leading up to this is that, you know, it's such a broad age range that like officially, technically, I think it's a 15-to-24 age group. But, you know, when we talk about youth unemployment, I think people go all the way up to like 35, well into their 30s. Armine, how important is it to, to solve this? Like, are we talking about actual lost revenue? What are the stakes of getting this wrong?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Oh, it's so huge, actually. But, you know. I was looking at the difference between Ontario and Canada youth unemployment and using the definition of 15-to-24-year-olds. We are seeing definitely lower rates of unemployment in both jurisdictions than historically as, as a peak, and we're much lower than the peak. But what's changing is the relationship between young people and everybody else. And there's two aspects of the comment that I want to make. First of all, we have never needed young people to integrate in the labour market, to get in and stay in the labour market more than we do now. In the last, you know, 50-60 years of data, you take a look at what's going on and never have we seen so many people reaching the age of retirement, and are about to, and we have fewer young people coming into the labour market. So, we want those young people to get in, stay and have a good experience because we saw the scarring from when about a quarter of young people, young men were unemployed in the '80s and the '90s recessions. And to Tim's point, this isn't recessionary. So, here's my second point. It isn't recessionary. Demographics hands to us on a silver platter the opportunity to make every job a good job. And if we do that, we actually improve the economy from the bottom up. If we don't do that, young people don't get jobs. They don't get good jobs. We're asking the next generation to do the most heavy lifting since the 1950's and '60s. It's the smallest working age cohort we have seen in more than half a century, and we're asking them to take care of themselves and pay the taxes for those who are too old, too young and too sick to work. It's a diabolically bad situation if we don't get these people into good-paying jobs that can help them deal with the cost of housing. I mean, your previous segment about housing costs in Nova Scotia was mindblowing. So, we need to. People need to make money to be able to live anywhere.

PA: So, let's pivot to the, what we need to do to fix this. Tim, the federal Liberal government is making some moves to change immigration levels. How much of a difference do we think that's going to make?

TIMOTHY LANG: Hard to say. I mean, as we know, you know, the influx was dramatic and sudden. And so, I mean, I think if it goes back to normal levels, I think that that will help solve it. But there are other things that can be done. I mean, as Armine said, you know, she hit the nail on the head that the scarring, which is the term that's now used, you know, can cost, as the Deloitte Kings Trust Report said, and as a CEO from Hammond had pointed out, it could cost up to $18 billion to the economy in long-term. So, we've got to do something. So, that's where government can play a role. We know that Canada's a great country and part of that, there are many reasons for it. Part of it is our social system, like universal health care. But there's another layer, and that's organisations like ours. Yes. And those across the country, they're free. And you know, in our organisation, we provide almost 90% success rate of getting someone a job. So, obviously we encourage all youth to reach out those free resources, but they are largely funded by government. So, we need governments to make sure they continue that funding. And provincial governments in, you know, B.C. and Ontario have continued to do that, and we've seen a bit of a cutback by the federal government, unfortunately. I mean, our organisation, our federal funding was cut almost 75 per cent. So we need them to, you know, maintain that because we also know that for every dollar of funding, it returns at least three to the economy in terms of, you know, tax revenues, wages, reduction of social services and so much more.

PA: Armine, I've been trying to get my head around sort of, you know, what the main issue is here, and you've highlighted them here. There's, there's the immigration problem. There's a job creation problem. There's a demographics problem. Are they all intermingled, or is there something central to our issue that we can start by trying to tackle?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: I mean, I think to Tim's point, we know what programs work. To defund them is cuckoo, absolutely nuts. So to actually, because as I said, we had this problem in the early '80s. We had this problem in the early '90s, much bigger than it is now thanks to demographics. I know it hurts. It probably hurts more for the people that don't have a job because they can't cover their cost of living in a way that was not the issue back then. But we do know what works in terms of public policies. What I will flag, though, is we have no idea what's going to happen in the coming months. We ducked a recession partly because we added people and stirred, you know, partly everything that we've been complaining about. Newcomers coming here prevented us from going into a recession post, post-pandemic reopening. And the reason was there, employers really couldn't get enough people to do the jobs that people wanted to get services for, and it was very service-driven. Now we are looking at the results of the U.S. election that I think could really upset the apple cart on both sides of the border. And historically, some of the really good jobs have not just been in trades, they've been in manufacturing, especially for young men. And that is an area that is extremely exposed to really not so public policy coming from south of the border and blowing our way.

PA: You know, Tim, I think about when I was, I went to university in Nova Scotia. I'd plant trees out west or I go work in Banff or whatever it may be, and it felt like I could go anywhere and get a job. It was easy and it, it allowed me a certain amount of mobility and, and freedom to go make some decisions. I wonder how you think about the sort of social knock-on effects when, when the young people can't find work. It's, it's hard on them, isn't it?

TIMOTHY LANG: It is. And you know like you at the university in Nova Scotia, even though I'm from western Canada. But at that, when I graduated, it was easy, easier to find, as you say, you know, tree planting and things like that. But it was actually a difficult time in the early '90s to find full-time work as well. And, and we're seeing, you know, some of that again. And that's why it's so important for corporations to step up. You know, a lot of times, they think they're saving a bit of money by offering part-time, save on their benefits. But we work with, again, thousands of businesses as well, trying to encourage them the benefits of hiring full-time because there's, there's a cost to churn and labour and productivity. But the other big thing is we work a lot with youth with mental health, and mental disabilities are on the increase. So, anyone who doesn't get a job, you know, that can cause anyone's, you know, mental health to rise. [PA: For sure.] But it's someone who's got, you know, diagnosed mental health disability, having employment helps their, you know, sense of worth and dignity, you know, has a, you know, a sense of purpose, of community. But the data also shows that employers that hire people with a mental disability, even though some small accommodations, they end up being some of the most productive long-term employees. So again, all these things, if we don't act, you know, with mental health on the increase, it's just going to be compounded significantly.

PA: Armine, we've been doing a lot of reporting over the last number of years about the amount of young people who are living with their parents for longer. How much, how much data do we have and how, how direct of a line can we paint between youth unemployment and a strain on their parents' generation?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: It's very difficult to do. I mean, the source of that data is the general household survey, which we don't do very often, or the census. And the last time we checked to see who's living at home with Mummy and Daddy is 2021. The census is run every five years, in the 1's in the 6's of the decades. And that's when we learned that more men, young men lived at home with mummy and daddy still than women. And fewer of these men have had any kind of a relationship with anybody other than because, you know, they're living, living at home. [PA: Right.] Now, the problem with that was it's 2021 in the peak, in the heart of the [ARMINE YALNIZYAN & PA together: Of the pandemic.] But the concern is that housing costs have been so rising so steeply, particularly continuing to rise in many places for rent, though in some places they're starting to come down. Rents are starting to come down. We'll see what that's like in 2026, which isn't very satisfying because we won't find out till, you know, a couple of years later. Look, we don't need the data to know people are in trouble. This doesn't need to be evidence like data-driven. We can see it all around us. And the two clips that you had at the top of this segment are ample indication that people with qualifications, people willing and eager to work, people that are looking for some way to participate in their lives and in society are going begging for the opportunity. That never is good news. And when you compound that with what is happening politically, we might be in for a really troubling time. On the other, on the other hand, demographics literally does hand us opportunities left, right and centre for the next generation. And if we, if we seize that opportunity, we will be actually growing the economy from the bottom up and from the middle out, which is the secret sauce to any kind of economic and social success over the long run.

PA: That's Armine's path forward and way out of this. Tim was here. If you could get one thing moving, what would it be?

TIMOTHY LANG: Well, Armine said the secret sauce. [PA: Yeah.] And as you know, a lot of truth to that. There is great opportunity. So again, of making sure we invest in organisations that provide these free services of, businesses are more aware of the benefits of hiring young people full-time and people with mental health disabilities. That helps their bottom line and just, you know, making sure there's more awareness. I think great things can come and we'll all benefit.

PA: Alright. Listen, important conversation and really glad to have had it with you both. Thanks for this.

TIMOTHY LANG: Thank you very much.

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Thank you.

PA: Timothy Lang is the CEO of Youth Employment Services, also short for YES. And Armine Yalnizyan is an economist and the Atkinson Fellow on the Future of Workers. I'm Peter Armstrong. You're listening to The Current. Tomorrow on the program, you're going to hear a special edition of The Current from Saskatoon. Matt Galloway, your regular host is already there. Matt, what can people expect tomorrow?

MATT GALLOWAY: Peter, good morning. I'm here in the snow. We flew in to a blizzard in Saskatoon. They got a lot of snow over the last couple of days and certainly just before we arrived, it was hammering down. Truck over here next to me looks like it's just about stuck. It's cold. Winter has arrived. That has not stopped people from being out and about. We were just downtown, and there's people all through the downtown area walking dogs, snowshoeing, running. You see people on the other side of the river here running right now. And we made our way out to meet with one of this country's great authors, Guy Vanderhaeghe, who has spent most of his life in Saskatoon. And this is a city that shapes what he writes about. He writes often what I think people would call historical fiction informed by a contemporary lens, and shaped by a contemporary lens. And so we went to one of Guy's favourite little restaurants, sat down and had a cup of coffee and talked about this city and the West and the place of the West and how we as Canadians think about this country.

SOUNDCLIP

GUY VANDERHAEGHE: At one time, the country, like in the earliest days, were divided up between French and English, Catholic and Protestant. And those were big dividing lines. When the West got settled, then, then the question became, you know, feelings of, of the West being exploited by Bay Street bankers, the famous cartoons of the cow being fed in Saskatchewan and being milked in Ontario, all those sorts of things. The problem now is that I think that politicians are willing to exploit these, these differences in a way that I don't think they would have countenanced before. Did they really press hot button issues?

MATT GALLOWAY: So that's Guy Vanderhaeghe, author. We were sitting down talking to him. He reflected on some of the big challenges that the city faced. And that's some of what we'll be talking about tomorrow. This is a city that's got a lot going on for it, but it faces some big wicked challenges. And you feel it on a day like today when the wind is blowing, the wind chill into the -20s. There's a huge homelessness crisis in this city and addictions crisis as well. Where are people finding respite when the weather is like this? We're going to meet some of the people who are trying to help those who are out on the streets and some of the people I mean, they just came through an election here. Some of the people who use that as an election issue, as a city like this grows, it faces problems that perhaps an even larger city would be more familiar with. And people in Saskatoon are now just wrapping their heads around some of those big issues. So, the good and the bad and some of the wicked problems and how people here in Saskatoon are trying to come to terms with all of that. That's what you will hear tomorrow on a special edition of The Current from this snowy place.

PA: Fantastic. Looking forward to hearing all about it, Matt. That was Matt Galloway in snowy Saskatoon. We can't talk about Saskatoon and not play this song. Here's The Guess Who with Runnin' Back To Saskatoon.

[Music: Runnin' Back To Saskatoon by The Guess Who]

PA: Coming up after your regional update.

SOUNDCLIP

MATS SUNDIN: And I got asked the question, do you have any regrets not winning the Stanley Cup, right? And I have zero because, you know, hockey gave me and my family so much unexpected happiness. And everything we have today is because of hockey. [Music: Theme fading in]

PA: Of his two decades in the NHL, Mats Sundin played 13 seasons for the Toronto Maple Leafs. Now, he's looking back at every twist in his career and the importance of family along the way. My conversation with Leafs legend Mats Sundin in 90 seconds time. I'm Peter Armstrong. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

And Leafs legend Mats Sundin

Guest: Mats Sundin

PA: I'm Peter Armstrong. You're listening to The Current.

[Sounds of crowd chanting "Sundin" in hockey arena]

PA: Can you make that out? You hear them chanting, "Sundin, Sundin!" Toronto Maple Leafs fans chanting their appreciation for Mats Sundin. He was their team captain for 11 seasons. And on that night, back in 2012, those fans were there to recognise number 13.

SOUNDCLIP

MATS SUNDIN: The number one thing that I miss, being retired and not living in Toronto is the people of Toronto.

[Crowds screaming and cheering]

MATS SUNDIN: Börje Salming told me when I became a Leaf, 'Mats, you would love moving to Toronto, you will love being a Maple Leaf.' I didn't know then, but I know now what he meant. The great tradition and the great history of the Maple Leafs that I'm now part of. Thank you very much.

PA: All these years later, and Mats Sundin still has more career goals, overtime goals and points than any other Toronto Maple Leaf player. He started his NHL career, of course, with the Quebec Nordiques. He ended up with the Vancouver Canucks, but it's his years with Toronto that stand out. Mats Sundin has written his memoir called "Home and Away." And I had the chance to speak with him last month. Here's our conversation.

PA: It's really cool to hear those. I remember all of those moments. What's it like for you to hear that?

MATS SUNDIN: I get emotional here. There's a great introduction.

PA: How do you, you know, one of the great things in the book is it's an opportunity to sort of zoom out over all those years. What's it like reflecting on your years in Toronto now?

MATS SUNDIN: Well, I'm glad I wrote my book with some distance to my career. [PA: Right.] I think it was time now, if I didn't do it, start it last summer, it was not going to happen. And so, you're a little wiser when you're 53 than when you're just retired or when you're, when you're 25. [PA: Hopefully, at least.] We all hope so anyway. But it's just a great appreciation, I think. When I have my own kids now, three kids. And reflecting back on that career, I felt very fortunate to ending up coming to Toronto. And, you know, there's no market like playing in Toronto and people, players, I don't care if they grew up in Toronto. Until they put on the blue and white jersey and actually represent the Maple Leafs, it's impossible to understand what it means.

PA: Well, you barely understood what it meant to you. When, you were up fishing with your family when, when you got signed to the Leafs and, like a helicopter landed, people come and try to find you?

MATS SUNDIN: Yeah, No, I had no idea what it meant until I actually came to my first press conference. And. And I realised, "Oh, Wendel Clark, he was a, he is a great player." I knew that. But I had big, big shoes to fill. I realised I had my first press conference and it took me a long time to, you know, to earn the respect from the Maple Leaf fans. It took me a few years.

PA: Well, you earned it in the end. Oh boy, did you earn it. I want to talk about, like, one of the themes in the book is family, right? It's so interwoven with your career, and at the end of it, I finish the book thinking this is more a book about Mats's family than it is about his career, which I thought was really interesting because it weaves your beginnings with hockey to your beginnings of hockey with your kid [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah] now. What role did your parents play in you starting your career?

MATS SUNDIN: You know, yeah, and I think one of the reasons why the book and I agree with you, there's a lot about life there [PA: For sure] in the book. And one of the reasons is I have my own three kids now. And you reflect on how you are as a parent and when you, when you get your own kids. And I realise if I can do half of the job my parents did with me and my brothers, I'm going to do great. So, I'm just trying to keep up with the driver, driving down the Saturday morning at 7 a.m.. I think all Canadian families can, can recognise the stuff that we went through and, and also realise with my kids, you know, it's a completely different world where we are today than in the '80s, right? [PA: Right.] With the Internet and the struggle that parents go through with their iPads and iPhones and, and we were just out there playing street hockey, right? So, I think also I was, one of the reasons I think I had a long career... In 19 years, I was in the National Hockey League and we're able to be in Toronto for 13. My upbringing was safe. There was no pressure and I had a very strong family. And, and I think that actually made me a very, I was, I was never, I didn't feel any p--, I was very comfortable in the role of who, who I was turning pro. And it really helped me once all the pressure came of playing in the National Hockey League.

PA: There's a great moment where your dad sort of sits you down. He's like, "Hey, dude. No pressure here. If you don't want to do this, we don't have to do it." A lot of families would be the exact opposite of that.

MATS SUNDIN: And that was, I was 16. [PA: Yeah.] At the time, right? So it didn't like when...

[cross-talk]

PA: ...One of the best hockey players in the country at the time.

MATS SUNDIN: Yeah. And you know, that's what you, all your hormones, all your friends are going to a, it's like a party at the high school that starts at 9:00, you know, and you're going to practice. It starts at 9:00 and you're like, "Where am I going?" And my dad said, "You know what? If you want to practice, yeah, absolutely. I'll drop you off at the, at the school party after." "Oh, that's great." But he had that hardened heart and that's the only one I remember. I never had any more. He said "Listen, if you're going to keep playing hockey, we got to get up at 7:00 tomorrow morning Sunday, we can't be out till, like 1:30 in the night. So you have to start making up your mind."

PA: As you know, as a dad now, 7:30's come early.

MATS SUNDIN: And I think, but I think also parents nowadays might have those talks when they're 10. Right? [PA: Right.] Like, you want to [PA: Totally] you have to let the kids play for as long as they can because it's kind of gets serious. So, we'll talk about.

PA: Why? And you talk a lot in the book about like chasing your brothers [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah] and your older brother, especially [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah] who, who is bigger, faster, older. And you're like, "No, no, no, let me play." [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah.] You know, what impact did, did chasing an older brother with, with more talented kids have on making you better?

MATS SUNDIN: You know what? If you ask all the best coaches and leaders anywhere in the world, in any sports, women and men, there's an unbelievable advantage if you can have someone you chase. And I mean as a kid [PA: Yeah] that I did early on, because that's going to improve your development quick, quick, quick. But even grown ups, I mean, new women and men, and I know from the Swedish cross-country teams [Swedish title], many gold medals. She gets into the national team and there's always someone there to chase that you're looking up to. There's one Olympic gold or, and you're coming in as a new... That's the perfect situation. So, I think that's very important when you're, when you're going to reach somewhere and try to become successful, to have someone to chase. Very important.

PA: Well, and you had people to chase in Sweden. I mean, Börje Salming is also from up in the north. [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah, yup.] Like you, the were, you came up with some of the best players that have ever come out of that.

MATS SUNDIN: Absolutely. And I agree with that and, and idolising. But to be close to them, like practice with them [PA: Right] and to skate with them and work out with them, and see how hard they work and want to say, I want to. And when you see them, you realise also, they're just like me, really, they're very good. But I think I can get there, right?

PA: Right. Well, and so you get drafted '89? [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah]. You get drafted, you go to the Quebec Nordiques, you're the first-ever European to be chosen first overall in the draft. [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah.] When did you realise after the draft how big of a deal this was going to be?

MATS SUNDIN: Well, the funny thing is, when we start writing this book. Me and Amy Stuart - my co-writer, did a great job. She was also surprised, you know, because you're going back in time to '89, right? [PA: Right.] And, like no one in Sweden knew what the draft was. Like, me and my parents, I, Pat Quinn, who actually called me later to induct me, [PA: into the hall of fame] made the call, the Hall of Fame, when he gave me a pin in a four-nation tournaments in Czechoslovakia. Somewhere after practice or a game, he came up to me. He was the GM for the Vancouver Canucks at the time. He goes, "Mats, you're going to have a great career in the National Hockey League." Like, I was 17. I was like, "Maybe I can make it over there. [PA: Maybe, maybe not]. And that's how so. It was a very, you know, when you read it, it's almost naive, but you have to remember what time it was. And so when I got drafted, it was all of the Swedish newspapers explaining to the Swedish people what the draft was.

PA: Right, right. For sure. And then, you get to Quebec and like, you were on and you were a team-mate of Guy Lafleur.

MATS SUNDIN: Unbelievable.

PA: You want to talk about learning from people?

MATS SUNDIN: Exactly.

PA: You learn your.

MATS SUNDIN: Joe Sakic.

PA: Yeah.

MATS SUNDIN: And Guy Lafleur. And my first game coming out of the rink, you know, leaving my, my childhood room back in Sollentuna to earn a living with my parents. And, you know, after a few weeks, I walk in the room for my first game and I was there three hours ahead of the game, like I was so nervous. And in the National Hockey League, just a perfect, all the sweaters are up there. And there was my name with Sundin and 13 and Joe Sakic and Guy Lafleur. [Inaudible] everything was gone, like his sweater, pants, socks, skates.

PA: You think if he didn't show up that day?

MATS SUNDIN: He's not going to play, or is he retired? And I walk around the corner and he's, I think is already 40 or 39 at the time [PA: Yeah, he is.] He's all dressed, skates on and everything and is doing a stick and he looks over when he hear me coming and he said "Mats." And a terrible, trying to do his French accent. "But it's great to see here in time. You know, preparation is everything if you want a long career. You're going to have a long, great careers." And he kept doing his stick and that's very important. I'll never forget that moment.

PA: And he told you to shoot the puck more.

MATS SUNDIN: Every day. [PA: Really, eh?] "Shoot the puck." [In fake French accent] "Tavernac. Shoot the puck." "Mats, don't pass it."

PA: So, I lived in Quebec City for a long time. The ghosts of the Nordiques are still everywhere in that town. You were just there. But you leave Quebec to go to Toronto. Traded for my beloved Wendel Clark. When you did get here, how welcomed did you feel?

MATS SUNDIN: Amy, my co-writer, Amy Stuart's favourite player as well. [PA: Right.] Yeah. No, it was a shock, the first press conference. That's, that's when I realised, "Oh, I got big shoes to fill here, Wendel." I realised that and being his, coming from Europe, big guy, I wasn't afraid of the physical part of the game in North America. But, I was, I mean my game was skills: Skating, passing shooting, producing points. Wendel, rugged, great shot, would drop his gloves [PA: Right] hitting guys, leading in a different way, great leader. So, it took me a good, I think, three years until I earned the respect. And they were like, you know what? He's going to be okay. But it took me many years to, to earn the respect.

PA: I grew up in Toronto. I was born in '72. So you can imagine my image of Börje Salming is outsized. It's, he's, he's a giant. He was a giant for you. He was a mentor. He was a, you played with him. What did he mean to you?

MATS SUNDIN: I think he was a key man, and it was almost like it was meant to be. So, when I heard about the trade, I'm at Börje Salming's hockey school in Kiruna, a small mining town above the Arctic Circle [PA: Right, way up there] in Sweden. And I got a call and I said, "I'm going to the Maple Leafs." "That's great," he says, "You're going to be in the best franchise in the world, the biggest franchise." So, from that moment until, you know, being asked about the captaincy. First man I call was Börje Salming, and he right away said "Mats, you have to accept." And I said, "Why is that?" He said, "It's such a great honour." And he regretted he didn't accept it when he got asked.

PA: And he didn't accept it, in part because what? He felt his language wasn't good enough. But also you have a line that he felt the C was not just for captain, but for Canadian?

MATS SUNDIN: Yeah. And I think more than anything, he was such a laid-back, quiet guy. I mean, most Swedes are. [PA: Sure.] But he was very, and from the further north you come in Sweden, the more quieter people get. And he was certain like that. And, but when he reflected back on his career, that was one of his regrets.

PA: I was in the stands the night that he was honoured 2022 when they recognised him after his ALS diagnosis. It was an amazing moment to be a part of in the stands, not a dry eye in the house. You were out there on the red carpet with him and it was well, what was really telling you? I was there with my buddy Marcus, and he was saying, you know, "Hockey's a tough game. You know, it's rough and it's brutal, but there's a lot of emotion and clear emotion throughout both teams, everybody in the stands." You write about the emotion in hockey and about the familial bonds you form with these guys. Do you think fans might be a bit surprised by that still?

MATS SUNDIN: You know, I think it's easy when you're only getting the media feeds about what's going on with the team or the guys do the interviews and guys are, you know, [PA: trying to say the right thing] you know, you try to say the right thing. You're a team. You can't, you know, go on about everything else. And there's a lot of it. So, I, we hope that we can get the reader to actually reflect and get more of the human side of the players as well behind the scenes. And the moment, you know, I remember talking to Börje Salming's wife a couple of weeks going over and she said, "You're going to have to be prepared, Mats, because Börje has gotten a lot worse. [PA: Yeah]. Just the last three months. And that moment was devastating to see him in the shape he was in, and just understanding how that's going to end.

PA: It clearly meant so much to him, though.

MATS SUNDIN: Oh, yeah.

PA: It was so powerful.

MATS SUNDIN: Yeah. And for him to just to make it over to North America in the state he was in and, but it was a special moment. And I think the Toronto Maple Leafs did a great job handling it in a great way for Börje and his family. And it meant the world for him.

PA: The, the Leafs' quest for a Stanley Cup is ongoing. I think the closest we've come was recently was in 2002 when you and the team made it to the Eastern Conference Finals, Toronto against Carolina, Game 6 back in Toronto. The Leafs had to win.

SOUNDCLIP

[Announcer clip from Game 6 in 2002.]

PA: What else is new? Yeah. I get, I get shivers hearing that.

MATS SUNDIN: I got goosebumps in and out of my skull.

PA: So again, I was. I was covering that game. I was there. You tied it with seconds to go. That's not how it ended. How hard was that one?

MATS SUNDIN: Well, yeah, it was hard. I think any time you get beat up, beat out in the playoffs and we obviously never reached the finals, we were close a couple of years. We lost to Buffalo one year in the conference finals and against Carolina on this game. But just those runs in the playoffs, like, when you reflect back obviously right there and then, it's devastating. Everybody's crying and you put in so much time and effort since September and you fall just a little bit short. [PA: Just short.] You win 10 games, you got to win 16. [PA: Right.] You're not far away, but still far away, right? So, so, but reflecting back, it's you know, and I get asked the question: Do you have any regrets of not winning the Stanley Cup right? And I have zero because, you know, hockey and if you read the book, it gave me and my family so much unexpected happiness. And everything we have today is because of hockey, representing the Maple Leafs. So, you know, but I do say Toronto Maple Leafs fans deserves the Stanley Cup. And it's been a long time and, you know, that, that hurts that we weren't able to do that when I look back. But you know it's going to happen. It's just a matter of time.

PA: I'm a Leafs fan and I know how just bonkers we are and the pressure like it must be so much easier to go play in Utah or whatever and to come. What was it? How did you personally manage all of that scrutiny, all of that pressure of being in such a crazy market?

MATS SUNDIN: Yeah, just like it was said, there's no market. I don't care where you played in the world of hockey. You don't know what it means like to be a Maple Leaf until you wear the sweater. And then, it's a tougher market to play for many different reasons, you know, if not half the league. A lot of players in the league, they are from Ontario. When they come home and play the Maple Leafs, who are their childhood team growing up [PA: Right], their favourite team?

PA: They got to get 20 tickets for all their...

[cross-talk]

MATS SUNDIN: But also, even if they lost 10 games in a row, you're going to get their best game [PA: For sure.] So, there's many different reasons. And you know, you play in Tampa, Florida, or Vegas. I mean, Florida and Vegas won the Cup the last few times. The Stanley Cup champions are going to go through adversity, adversity through a year. There's going to be losing streaks. They're going to have people hurt. And but, it's not under the microscope the way it is on a daily basis, the way it is in Toronto. And it adds pressure, even though the players, most of them, I don't think, followed the everyday news. [PA: Right.] But it's still, you know, you feel a little bit of the pressure. So, it is a different world, but it's going to happen. And, and I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I would still would not want to win the cup in Las Vegas. The place to win the Stanley Cup is in Toronto because that's what it would mean the most.

PA: And you talk about that in the book. Those moments when the Leafs are asking you to waive your no trade clause. [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah.] And they're saying, hey, there's contenders out there that maybe you can go win a Cup with them. And you said, no, I want to win a cup in Toronto. You open the book with your jitters before the game, your first game. [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah.] Now, you've, you've taken a contract with the Vancouver Canucks. You're coming back for a game in Toronto. How did you feel in that moment coming back to Toronto? Because there's got to be a little bit of resentment that it didn't work out. Jitters that the fans are going to boo you or whatever. How are you feeling?

MATS SUNDIN: Well, it was, I mean, we play the finals in the Olympic finals, and it was my last chance to win Olympic gold in Torino in '06. But I would say that game, I was more nervous than, you know, try to win my first Olympic gold coming back. And, and the reason for that is, I think, you know, personally, I understand the business of the game, right? [PA: Right.] Toronto Maple Leafs trying to do what's best for the organisation over time. There's no regrets there. But still, as a player, you still take it personally. You have so much time invested and effort and try to, you know, get to where, you, you want to go on the team and the organisation and the fans. So, it was a lot of emotions coming back and experienced that. And then I got to the, you know, the, the deciding penalty [PA: The shootout goal.]

PA: And so, we've got a part of your post-game interview with Elliotte Friedman. This is from February of 2009.

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ELLIOTTE FRIEDMAN: The three stars, when you went out, you blew kisses to the crowd, you bowed and then the ovation in the first period. The media here has known you a long time. I think a lot of us have never seen you like that. How close were you to crying?

MATS SUNDIN: I was probably crying a little bit. 13 years in the city and with the team, it's been, it's been a lot of ups and downs, you know, a lot of emotions and a lot of great team-mates just passed by. And I mean, the fans and the organisation, it's been a very emotional ride. And so, it's been a build up for this game and it's nice to look forward now and no matter how this game would have ended or so forth, it wouldn't have changed my memories and my thought with the Leafs. It was always going to be the same, but this certainly ends in a nice way. [ELLIOTTE FRIEDMAN: Glad it's over?] Yeah, I know.

ELLIOTTE FRIEDMAN: Thanks a lot, Mats.

PA: I mean, we're just sort of pulling out all the stops here today. Try to give you as much nostalgia for your time here as possible. What goes through your mind when you hear that?

MATS SUNDIN: Well, I'm exactly, so I'm saying the same thing as I'm doing today, right? And right there, it was, it was emotional. It was, it was very nerve-wracking leading up to that. But at the same time, we try to reflect on it on the book, too. You know, once, it's weird how it was, was, you know, once you play the game, you know, time stops and you live in the moment and you forget all about that. But that's, that's just what hockey is, you know? And that's the only thing I really miss about the game is that when you, when the puck drops, you're in the game. You live in the moment. [PA: Yeah.] And we have three kids and you're planning the next week or you're looking back, it's, it's hard to find those moments.

PA: You talk about mindfulness, hockey's great for that! Everything's [inaudible].

MATS SUNDIN: Exactly.

PA: And you had your first kid right after you retired, right? [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah.] A lot of the guys do it during their career. [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah.] Been able to be around. You guys moved back to Sweden [MATS SUNDIN: Yup] with your wife, Josephine. You have three kids. Is it your youngest son who's playing hockey?

MATS SUNDIN: Middle son. [PA: Middle son.] I try to get my youngest son. He's going to hockey school. Let's see.

PA: But what is it like? I mean, you remember you write beautifully about you and your dad driving dark through to, through Stockholm to go to, to games and practices. What's it like to be the guy driving and watching him? You talk about how he's kind of nervous [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah.] going through his own pregame [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah] rituals.

MATS SUNDIN: You know, I love it and I think it comes from my upbringing. And, you know, I'm not half as good or doing it as good as my parents did. But, but still, I go to every practice when I'm home to watch him. I go to the games. My daughter plays basketball. I love going to watch her game. Out of the three of them, I mean, Bonnie is the oldest, I have two sons. She's the most competitive. I guess she's, [PA: The oldest always are.] Yeah.

PA: Your older brother was, too.

MATS SUNDIN: Yeah. So, but it's great. I love that. And it's really a natural way of the next step in life. You know, we're our age, you know? I really love it.

PA: You were at the Leafs training camp this past summer? [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah.] Involved with the team. You're still like, like you say, the team has become a, they've done really good things in terms of, you know, celebrating some of the past. [MATS SUNDIN: Yes], they retired a bunch of jerseys finally. What is your advice to the guys that are on the team now about managing, about playing, about being in that moment and the mindfulness [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah] that comes with being?

MATS SUNDIN: Well, I was really happy to get invited by Bradshaw [inaudible] and the Leafs management to, to be part of camp for a few days. You know, I'm very impressed of the team. Obviously, I think everybody that watches the team knows what they're, what they can do on the ice, right? [PA: Sure.] Auston Matthews, not only one of the absolute best players in the world. He's a great guy. He's a natural leader off the ice. So, it's nice to be around the guys. And I think the most important thing is, is just continue to be the way they are and make sure they have a strong, strong bonds within the dressing room that starts in training camp. Keep building those throughout the season. The, there is going to be adversities. They're going to be a little more, you know, people going to see them a little more when in a market like Toronto and block that out and just keep driving and become a really tight group that buys into Coach's program and they're going to have a they're going to have a great spring.

PA: It's amazing in reading this book how, you know, you span these generations. You played with Guy LaFleur and then, you know, you play Michael Nylander, William Nylander's father [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah], and now you're still connected to these young guys. [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah.] Do you see is it still the same game, or is it, has it changed so much in those years that...?

MATS SUNDIN: I think the concept of winning, what it takes is the same. [PA: Yeah.] I don't think there's any difference. I think the teams are, are reading to be as close as you can be and pay the price that it takes to play now to two months, once the regular season is over, they're going to win. I don't think that's changed. The game has changed and the pace is up in the game. There's no hook in, in holding. [PA: Right.] They got rid of that, you know, at the end of my career. So, you see more skill right through the line up. So, the pace is up. But, but at the end of the day, you know, you know, you have to, if you're going to win a championship, yes, you got to score goals. You've got to play good defence and you got to get good goaltending. So [PA: Yeah] you need to have the complete package.

PA: I'll put you on the spot here. Do you think the Leafs will win the Stanley Cup in your lifetime? In my lifetime?

MATS SUNDIN: Of course, of course.

PA: Sure. All right. We're going to leave it there. Mats, thank you for this book. Thank you for all your time in Toronto. As a fan, it was really great to be a part of it. It's really nice to just get to chat with you today.

MATS SUNDIN: Thanks for having me.

PA: Mats Sundin's memoir is called Home and Away. I spoke with him in October. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. Matt Galloway is in Saskatoon. He'll have a couple of special shows for you from there. So, make a point to tuning in tomorrow and again on Wednesday. For now, we're going to leave you with some music from Saskatchewan. Ellen Froese grew up in her family's dairy farm, a short drive from Saskatoon. Here she is with In the Sun. I'm Peter Armstrong, in for Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current.

[Music: In The Sun by Ellen Froese]

Monday, November 25, 2024 Full Transcript

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