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The Current Transcript for October 25, 2024

Host: Peter Armstrong

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

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MATS SUNDIN: Players. I don't care if they grew up in Toronto. Until they put on the blue and white jersey and actually represent the Maple Leafs, it’s impossible to understand what it means.

PETER ARMSTRONG: Mats Sundin certainly understood what it means. The former NHL star's new book, Home and Away, chronicles his journey from Sweden to the captaincy of the Toronto Maple Leafs. He'll join us in half an hour. And then...

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BOB WOODWARD: War has defined history and how we get involved or don't get involved in those wars is hugely significant.

PETER ARMSTRONG: Legendary journalist Bob Woodward's new book, once again, takes us inside the White House with some revealing details about the presidencies of both Joe Biden and Donald Trump and their approaches to global conflicts. His unvarnished and sometimes shocking portrait of one of the most tumultuous periods in American history. But we begin with a CBC News exclusive. The Fifth Estate's investigation into the sexual assault charges against Canadian billionaire Frank Stronach. Good morning. I'm Peter Armstrong, sitting in for Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

Frank Stronach responds to sexual assault allegations

Guest: Mark Kelly

[Music: Theme]

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FRANK STRONACH: It's a lie. It's a lie. It's a lie.

PA: That is how Frank Stronach, Canadian billionaire and once CEO of the auto parts empire, Magna, responded to CBC's Mark Kelly when he agreed to do an interview with the Fifth Estate this summer. Stronach is facing 18 sex crime charges, which involved 13 women, spanned five decades back to 1977. Allegations which Stronach repeatedly denies and have not been tried in court. The Fifth Estate not only investigated the allegations and spoke to women who detail what they call predatory work environments, but has taken the claims directly to Frank Stronach in two exclusive one-on-one interviews. Their documentary airs tonight on CBC television at 9 p.m.. And a warning: This conversation contains mature subject matter, including references to sexual assault. Mark Kelly is the co-host, the CBC's Fifth Estate and he's with me here in the studio. Mark, good morning.

MARK KELLY: Good morning, Peter.

PA: So let's start with the basics. Remind me who Frank Stronach is.

MARK KELLY: Yeah, Frank Stronach is one of these guys with his incredible rags to riches story that we, we love, everybody loves. Comes to Canada as an immigrant from Austria in the '50s, he starts a little tool and die operation out of a rented garage in midtown Toronto. And from that, turns it into, to Magna, the auto parts giant that is, that at one point had 180,000 employees working in 37 different countries, factories in 37 different countries. This was a guy that when he was bought out of Magna in 2010, they had annual sales of around $29 billion a year, $29 billion a year, started out of a garage. So, you know, incredible business success that, that is really unparalleled on a, on a, in the Canadian perspective. And this is a guy who's in the Order of Canada. He's in the U.S. Automotive Hall of Fame. He hung around with presidents and prime ministers. He was you know, he was, he raised thoroughbreds. He owned racetracks. We get a picture of him when the Queen, Queen of England here at the Queen's Plate from years ago. I mean, this is a guy that's like, whatever Frank Stronach wanted, Frank Stronach got. Until now, where he's got himself into a world of trouble.

PA: So, you interviewed him twice in this piece. How did that come together?

MARK KELLY: You know, the first criminal charges against him were made public in June, and The Fifth Estate started looking into this story. I wasn't even assigned to the story at that point. And then, it was on the Canada Day long weekend, and I'm away with some friends and one line email lens in my inbox that says Frank Stronach wants to connect with you. I thought it was a joke. I don't know Frank Stronach. I've never met Frank Stronach. I've never interviewed Frank Stronach. I ignored it, went back to it the next day, and I said, "You know, I'm a journalist." They said the curiosity got the best of me. I called the woman who had sent this email and I said, "Who are you?" She says, "I work with Frank Stronach. He wants to talk to you. I said, Why does he want to talk to me?" He says, "Well, you, you call him, you talk to him yourself." I call him. He picks up, he says, "Look, I've seen you on television. I trust you and I want you to tell my story." And there began a relationship, if you will, back and forth. I met with him a couple of times. We talked on the phone and I said, "We'll sit down and have this interview." And I said, "So, what is your story?" He says, "Well, I want the opportunity to explain who I am and the kind of person I am." So, the first time I interviewed him was August 6th this year. And I asked him then about the serious charges at that time were just what, just were 10 women, 13 charges. Here's what he had to say.

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MARK KELLY: Frank. Excuse me. One of the biggest issues you now are facing are very serious legal charges that have been levelled against you. 13 charges and you know the list, attempted rape, sexual assaults, forcible confinement. These are very, very serious charges. You will be 92 next month. How do you respond to these charges?

FRANK STRONACH: I've done anything wrong. And we have a lot of data which totally, you know, will prove that those things are lies. But I cannot get into it. But I feel sorry for the women, which makes those charges.

MARK KELLY: And Stronach would go on about, you know, feeling sorry for the women. He says some of these women, he believes, are in it for the money. Some of these women, he believes, are disgruntled employees. Some of these women, he believes, are in this conspiracy to ruin his name and his reputation. And that's the position he took in our first interview. And that's a position he maintains to this day.

PA: Now, The Fifth Estate starts digging into this. I've seen you guys work. This investigation leads you in a whole bunch of directions. The investigation reveals details about this Toronto bar in the 1980s called Rooney's. What did you learn about it and its connection to Frank Stronach?

MARK KELLY: Well, Frank, Frank Stronach was co-owner of this bar/nightclub, Rooney's in Toronto, and this was a place, I guess, to, to, to see and be seen. I'd never heard of it. Didn't grow up in Toronto, but it was a place that was where the rich and the famous would hang out and was a place where we were told there was always a table reserved for Frank. And on that table, there was always plenty of bottles of Dom Pérignon because that was his go-to drink. And there was always plenty of women, women that would be sitting around there. So, that was the scene that was set and that, there were a lot of VIPs. But the biggest VIP of them all was Stronach himself, who was a regular there. But then we would learn the dark overtones connected to that bar, Rooney's.

PA: Now, you end up speaking with, to one of the women on the charge sheet who you referred to, refer to as Lee. What did you learn from her?

MARK KELLY: Yeah, we're protecting her identity. She's also protected by a court order publication ban because she's one of the women who's part of this criminal case against Stronach. She was 20 years old, a horse groomer in 1980 working for Frank Stronach at his stables up in Aurora. And, you know, she describes, she didn't know who the guy was when the first time she saw him, she was told he's the guy who who owns the place. He's the guy who owns the horses. So, she was about to turn 21 and a couple of other stable hands said, "Hey, let's go to Rooney's because, because we work for Stronach, we think we're going to get a discount." So, she goes there to celebrate her, the oncoming 21st birthday. And then, she describes a very uncomfortable situation that happens when Stronach arrives in the bar. And just a caution to to the listeners this, this clip contains a graphic description of an alleged sexual assault.

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LEE: Suddenly, Frank comes walking around this barricade that was beside the table. He's got a bottle of champagne in his hand. And he came up to the table and I said, "Oh, I don't drink." And he said, "Oh, you know, you can't brush that off." Next thing I know, I'm out on the dance floor and he's holding me really, really tight. And I was trying to get loose. And then he shoves up my skirt and he punctures my pantyhose and he sticks his fingers right inside of me.

MARK KELLY: Now, Lee was shocked because as she looked around, she said the bar was was full and people didn't seem to be paying any attention. She would later quit her job. She felt she couldn't go back after that encounter with Frank Stronach. And as she said that night, the fire was stolen from her.

PA: It's tough to listen to.

MARK KELLY: Yeah.

PA: You learn about another woman who also worked for Frank Stronach and also had an encounter at Rooney's. Tell us about Jane Boon.

MARK KELLY: Yeah, and it's a similar story. And that's, Peter, one of the things that started coming out with our investigation is we noticed that there was a bit of a pattern of what some would call a predatory pattern. So, Jane Boon was 18 years old when she first got a job as a co-op student working at Magna. In her second year, when she was 19, she tells the story about going to a shareholders' meeting and then runs into Stronach, who said, "Come with me for dinner and then we're going to go for a party at Rooney's afterwards," and she's there and she's being wined and dined in front of, you know, the Premier, former Premier of Ontario, the bigwigs of the business world who are, who are sitting on the board of directors. And then, she realises at some point, as he's filling her glass full of wine and champagne, as she says, she realised she'd been caught in a trap.

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JANE BOON: We went out on the dance floor and it was physical. It was just, just kind of crazy. And it's at this moment that Stronach announces that I've, I've had too much to drink, that he's going to take me to the guest house and that the driver should take my car to the guest house. And then he turned to me and said, "Jane, give him your keys." It dawned on me that I'd been caught in a trap. Typically at a corporate event, if some junior staffer is intoxicated, somebody gives them a taxi to go home. They get escorted to a hotel. They don't get driven 30 miles north of Toronto to an isolated guest house by the CEO.

MARK KELLY: And Jane would describe what happened afterwards, a sexual encounter that she says wasn't illegal, as she wrote about it later in an op-ed in The Globe and Mail, she said it wasn't rape, but it wasn't right. And she, too, would also, she was an aspiring automotive engineer. She would quit that and go into her career in a completely different direction after that encounter with Frank Stronach.

PA: So this all begins with somebody reaching out to you saying, "Frank wants to talk." He wants to tell you sort of who he is, that sends you off down this investigation. You find out all this and you go back to interview Frank later this summer with these new allegations in hand. Where did you meet him, and what did he say about Rooney's?

MARK KELLY: Yeah, we met him, the first time, as I mentioned. We talked to him in August. And, but our investigation continued after that initial interview and we started finding more revelations. So, Rooney's, for example, we wanted to ask him, I mean, it was called, you know, Jane Boon would describe this place as a hunting ground for, for him to, to take women and then take them to a second location for, for unwanted sex. So, so I asked him, we were able to meet him at his stables. Of course, he still raises thoroughbreds. So, we went to his stables in Aurora on the family compound north of Toronto. And, and I began our conversation, our second conversation with him in the stables, asking him about Rooney's.

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FRANK STRONACH: It was a happy place. There's no dying here, right? Okay. We we had line ups.

MARK KELLY: But we've spoken to some people, Frank, who called it a hunting ground. It was a place where you would go to, to get women, and then you would take women from there afterwards to have sex with them against their will.

FRANK STRONACH: This is, this is absolutely where some make statements. It's absolutely wrong.

MARK KELLY: And this is where Stronach continues to profess his innocence. And yet at the same time and we'd heard from a third woman who would now also describe an encounter. She went to Rooney's. She met Stronach, he took her back to a second location where she says that she was sexually assaulted. Again, he categorically denies this claim.

PA: Your investigation brings you more information. But Lee, what happened after Rooney's? Did she end up talking to the police?

MARK KELLY: Yeah, because she too, after her encounter on the dance floor with Stronach, is taken to a second location where she says that she was sexually assaulted by him. It would take her until 2015. So we're talking about 25 years for her to be able to go back to, 35 years rather, for her to, to go to police. She said, "Look, nobody's going to believe me. I was shovelling manure for a living and people are going to believe that Frank Stronach wanted to have sex with me?" But she says that she had to deal with the fact that she was a survivor of what she felt was this sexual assault that she lived with. She needed to tell police about it. So, she finally found the courage in 2015 to meet Toronto police, and this is how she remembers that experience.

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LEE: It was intimidating. It was really intimidating. I was ready to tell my story, but they kept pushing me. It started to feel like an interrogation. I started to feel like I wasn't being believed.

MARK KELLY: And and to that end, Peter, she says she never heard back from the investigating officers. She never got a call back. She never got an email. She said she got nothing. We contacted the Toronto police to ask them about that. They said because it's an ongoing investigation and before the courts, they can't comment on that.

PA: In your investigation, you find out more about some of the more recent claims in the charge sheet and sort of a culture of fear by women who have worked for Stronach more recently. What did you hear there?

MARK KELLY: Yeah, we talked to a woman named JJ Wright. And she was, she was a Magna golf club employee back in 2007. And she said one of the first things that she was told when she, when she worked there was steer clear of the boss, boss being, of course, Frank Stronach. And that was an open secret, as she said, that he, there was predatory behaviour and that there were non-disclosure agreements that were being signed with employees after unwanted encounters with Frank Stronach. And now, Frank also, he's operating a restaurant in Aurora right now. So, we wanted to talk to some of the employees that have worked there or are still working with them there, and we were able to speak with three different former employees who told us describe experiences, what they called the uncomfortable work environment and predatory behaviour that, that they were living in a, in a culture of fear, working in this restaurant. And we have also protected their identity because they were concerned about in retaliation, possible retaliation from Stronach, but but here's what one employee told us.

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JJ WRIGHT: I mean, everybody, everybody's afraid of Frank, right? Like, he can pay off anyone he wants. So, it's like having worked for him, you learn the things he gets away with and never, ever getting afraid of it. You know?

MARK KELLY: I mean, it's interesting, Peter, talking to this one employee, she would eventually leave her job. She had no uncomfortable or inappropriate encounter with Frank Stronach. And yet when she left her job at that restaurant, she was required to sign a nondisclosure agreement not to talk about her experiences in that restaurant. It's very telling.

PA: Not very typical of the restaurant industry.

MARK KELLY: No, sir.

PA: What else did you learn from the, like, you meet with these former employees of Frank's Aurora restaurant that you spoke to this summer. What else did you learn?

MARK KELLY: Yeah, I mean, things got darker. I mean, we heard a story, we heard several stories. And we know that at least two of the former employees went to police with their complaints and that have resulted in two more criminal charges against Stronach. We heard a story about Stronach saying that he wanted to take one of the employees out for dinner, saying that we wanted to discuss job opportunities, possible promotion and takes that person instead to the restaurant, instead to a parking lot where he made unwanted sexual advances on this woman. She felt she was trapped in the car. She finally broke free, ran back into the restaurant where she told people what had happened. And would later, later quit. Now, her, her complaint did not result in criminal charges. But this was this culture of fear that said that the employees were working under there.

PA: So, you reach out to all these people. Did you find anyone that came forward to to sort of speak in support of Frank Stronach?

MARK KELLY: Well, this is where a curious story gets more curious, Peter. I mean, as I mentioned at the outset, here's a guy who is a friend of the rich and famous, presidents and prime ministers, who, you know, had an incredible Rolodex. And, and then suddenly when these criminal charges start to surface and they've come out in three waves, it started at five. They've grown to 18. Who knows? There could be more down the road. But, and yet, he's in the situation and, and virtually no one is coming to his defence. I mean, The Fifth Estate contacted more than 40 people with a simple ask: "We'd like to talk to you about Frank Stronach," people that had worked with him over the decades, people who worked with him, whether it was in the race industry. You know, he ran for parliament in Austria, in his native Austria. At one point we were contacting people in Austria, contacting people who worked at Magna. And few people would even return an e-mail, let alone talk to us on background on the phone, let alone come in front of a camera. A couple of people did, to their credit, because we wanted to hear more about the man and the full story of Frank Stronach. But that to us became, you know, very interesting component of this of how he is now increasingly isolated. And I'll use the case of of his own daughter, Belinda Stronach. [PA: Right.] Well known, I'm sure to to a lot of listeners. She's a former Member of Parliament, was elected as a Tory, crossed the floor to the, to the Liberals quite famously. She was on the Magna board of directors. She is still working with her father, Frank Stronach. When she was asked to comment on this situation, she, she put out a terse one line statement saying "The allegations against my father, Frank Stronach, are disturbing. I can't comment further because it's before the courts. Full stop." So, you know, if you want to talk about somebody trying to come to their defence, there was no "Look, I know my father. I know the kind of person he is. He would never do something like this. Give the man his day in court." Whatever it may be. It's just that. So, I find that in the time that I've been, I've been talking to Frank Stronach and we've, we've had two interviews. We've talked several times on the phone. It's an, an increasingly portrait has has evolved of a man who now finds himself alone. He's alone. He's fighting for his name. He's fighting for his reputation. You know, he insists that he needs to to have his day in court, to be able to to prove that these allegations are, as he claims, false. But he's doing that with very little support. He's 92 years old. He's running his his his restaurant north at Toronto. He's got a little electronic car and bike business that, that he's working on that he thinks one day will be the future of transportation. I went to meet him up there. There was one employee on the floor. So, here was a guy who used to run, you know, Magna with 170,000 plus employees who now finds himself really increasingly isolated on this island waiting for his day in court.

PA: You mentioned Magna. He built that company. It is still sort of so associated with his name. Has the company itself commented on these allegations?

MARK KELLY: Yeah, and I think that's the company's concern right now, is that it's so associated with the name Frank Stronach. And when you go up to Aurora, I mean, this is the town that Frank Stronach built. The recreation centre is the Stronach Recreation Centre, and yet beside Stronach Park and it's on Stronach Boulevard and there you've got, and on Stronach Boulevard, you find the head offices of Magna. So, Magna has now launched their own internal investigation into his time. He, he was bought out in 2010. He left as chairman in 2012. They want to look to see if there are any records possibly of, of sexual misconduct while he was working there. But, it, so they have said to us an investigation there are no criminal or civil allegations against Magna. As we've stated before, the allegations made against Mr. Stronach are alarming and if proven true, completely contradict Magna's core values and beliefs. So, they too, are trying to put as much distance between them and him. The guy who built the Empire.

PA: Mark, it's a powerful piece. It's an important piece. Thanks for talking to us about it and I hope people tune in to watch it tonight.

MARK KELLY: Thanks, Peter.

PA: Mark Kelly is the co-host of the CBC's Fifth Estate. Their investigation, "Frank Stronach: Power and Silence" airs tonight at 9:00 on CBC Television, Gem and YouTube. Support is available for anyone who's been sexually abused. Resources for family and children are available through the Canadian Centre for Child Protection. You can also access crisis lines and local support services through the Government of Canada website or the Ending Violence Association of Canada database. If you're in immediate danger or fear for your safety or that of others around you, please call 911. The CBC News is next. And then...

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MATS SUNDIN: The number one thing that I miss being retired and not living in Toronto, is the people of Toronto.

[Crowds cheering]

PA: One of the 19 years Mats Sundin spent in the NHL, 13 of them were in Toronto. Coming up, the Maple Leafs legend looks back at the importance of family and every twist and turn of his career. That's coming up in six minutes' time. I'm Peter Armstrong. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Leafs legend Mats Sundin

Guest: Mats Sundin

PA: I'm Peter Armstrong. You're listening to The Current.

[Toronto Maple Leaf fans chanting]

PA: Can you make that out? Sundin Sundin, Toronto Maple Leaf fans chanting their appreciation for Mats Sundin. He was their team captain for 11 seasons, and on that night in 2012, they were there to recognise number 13.

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MATS SUNDIN: The number one thing that I miss, being retired and not living in Toronto is the people of Toronto.

[More cheering]

MATS SUNDIN: Börje saw me and told me when I became a Leaf: Mats, you will love moving to Toronto. You will love being a Maple Leaf. I didn't know then, but I know now what he meant. The great tradition and the great history of the Maple Leafs that I'm now part of. Thank you very much.

[Cheering continues].

PA: Mats Sundin still has more career goals, overtime goals and points than any other Toronto Maple Leafs player. He started his NHL career with the Quebec Nordiques. It ended with the Vancouver Canucks, but it's his years in Toronto that stand out. And now, Mats Sundin has written his memoir "Home and Away," and he's here in our Toronto studio. Mats, hello.

MATS SUNDIN: Thanks for having me.

PA: It's really cool to hear those. I remember all of those moments. What's it like for you to hear that?

MATS SUNDIN: I get emotional here. There's a great introduction.

PA: How do you, you know, one of the great things in the book is it's an opportunity to sort of zoom out over all those years. What's it like reflecting on your years in Toronto now?

MATS SUNDIN: Well, I'm glad I wrote my book with some distance to my career. [PA: Right.] I think it was time now, if I didn't do it, start it last summer, it was not going to happen. And so, you're a little wiser when you're 53 than when you're just retired or when you're, when you're 25. [PA: Hopefully, at least.] We all hope so anyway. But it's just a great appreciation, I think. When I have my own kids now, three kids. And reflecting back on that career, I felt very fortunate to ending up coming to Toronto. And, you know, there's no market like playing in Toronto and people, players, I don't care if they grew up in Toronto. Until they put on the blue and white jersey and actually represent the Maple Leafs, it's impossible to understand what it means.

PA: Well, you barely understood what it meant to you. When, you were up fishing with your family when when you got signed to the Leafs and, like a helicopter landed, people come and try to find you?

MATS SUNDIN: Yeah, No, I had no idea what it meant until I actually came to my first press conference. And. And I realised, "Oh, Wendel Clark, he was a, he is a great player." I knew that. But I had big, big shoes to fill. I realised I had my first press conference and it took me a long time to, you know, to earn the respect from the Maple Leaf fans. It took me a few years.

PA: Well, you earned it in the end. Oh boy, did you earn it. I want to talk about, like, one of the themes in the book is family, right? It's so interwoven with your career, and at the end of it, I finish the book thinking this is more a book about Mats's family than it is about his career, which I thought was really interesting because it weaves your beginnings with hockey to your beginnings of hockey with your kid [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah] now. What role did your parents play in you starting your career?

MATS SUNDIN: You know, yeah, and I think one of the reasons why the book and I agree with you, there's a lot about life there [PA: For sure] in the book. And one of the reasons is I have my own three kids now. And you reflect on how you are as a parent and when you, when you get your own kids. And I realise if I can do half of the job my parents did with me and my brothers, I'm going to do great. So, I'm just trying to keep up with the driver, driving down the Saturday morning at 7 a.m.. I think all Canadian families can, can recognise the stuff that we went through and, and also realise with my kids, you know, it's a completely different world where we are today than in the '80s, right? [PA: Right.] With the Internet and the struggle that parents go through with their iPads and iPhones and and we were just out there playing street hockey, right? So, I think also I was, one of the reasons I think I had a long career... In 19 years, I was in the National Hockey League and we're able to be in Toronto for 13. My upbringing was safe. There was no pressure and I had a very strong family. And, and I think that actually made me a very, I was, I was never, I didn't feel any p--, I was very comfortable in the role of who, who I was turning pro. And it really helped me once all the pressure came of playing in the National Hockey League.

PA: There's a great moment where your dad sort of sits you down. He's like, "Hey, dude. No pressure here. If you don't want to do this, we don't have to do it." A lot of families would be the exact opposite of that.

MATS SUNDIN: And that was, I was 16. [PA: Yeah.] At the time, right? So it didn't like when...

[cross-talk]

PA: ...One of the best hockey players in the country at the time.

MATS SUNDIN: Yeah. And you know, that's what you, all your hormones, all your friends are going to a, it's like a party at the high school that starts at 9:00, you know, and you're going to practice. It starts at 9:00 and you're like, "Where am I going?" And my dad said, "You know what? If you want to practice, yeah, absolutely. I'll drop you off at the, at the school party after." "Oh, that's great." But he had that hardened heart and that's the only one I remember. I never had any more. He said "Listen, if you're going to keep playing hockey, we got to get up at 7:00 tomorrow morning Sunday, we can't be out till, like 1:30 in the night. So you have to start making up your mind."

PA: As you know, as a dad now, 7:30's come early.

MATS SUNDIN: And I think, but I think also parents nowadays might have those talks when they're 10. Right? [PA: Right.] Like, you want to [PA: Totally] you have to let the kids play for as long as they can because it's kind of gets serious. So, we'll talk about.

PA: Why? And you talk a lot in the book about like chasing your brothers [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah] and your older brother, especially [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah] who who is bigger, faster, older. And you're like, "No, no, no, let me play." [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah.] You know, what impact did, did chasing an older brother with with more talented kids have on making you better?

MATS SUNDIN: You know what? If you ask all the best coaches and leaders anywhere in the world, in any sports, women and men, there's an unbelievable advantage if you can have someone you chase. And I mean as a kid [PA: Yeah] that I did early on, because that's going to improve your development quick, quick, quick. But even grown ups, I mean, new women and men, and I know from the Swedish cross-country teams [Swedish title], many gold medals. She gets into the national team and there's always someone there to chase that you're looking up to. There's one Olympic gold or, and you're coming in as a new... That's the perfect situation. So, I think that's very important when you're, when you're going to reach somewhere and try to become successful, to have someone to chase. Very important.

PA: Well, and you had people to chase in Sweden. I mean, Börje Salming is also from up in the north. [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah, yup.] Like you, the were, you came up with some of the best players that have ever come out of that.

MATS SUNDIN: Absolutely. And I agree with that and and idolising. But to be close to them, like practice with them [PA: Right] and to skate with them and work out with them, and see how hard they work and want to say, I want to. And when you see them, you realise also, they're just like me, really, they're very good. But I think I can get there, right?

PA: Right. Well, and so you get drafted '89? [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah]. You get drafted, you go to the Quebec Nordiques, you're the first-ever European to be chosen first overall in the draft. [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah.] When did you realise after the draft how big of a deal this was going to be?

MATS SUNDIN: Well, the funny thing is, when we start writing this book. Me and Amy Stuart - my co-writer, did a great job. She was also surprised, you know, because you're going back in time to '89, right? [PA: Right.] And, like no one in Sweden knew what the draft was. Like, me and my parents, I, Pat Quinn, who actually called me later to induct me, [PA: into the hall of fame] made the call, the Hall of Fame, when he gave me a pin in a four-nation tournaments in Czechoslovakia. Somewhere after practice or a game, he came up to me. He was the GM for the Vancouver Canucks at the time. He goes, "Mats, you're going to have a great career in the National Hockey League." Like, I was 17. I was like, "Maybe I can make it over there. [PA: Maybe, maybe not]. And that's how so. It was a very, you know, when you read it, it's almost naive, but you have to remember what time it was. And so when I got drafted, it was all of the Swedish newspapers explaining to the Swedish people what the draft was.

PA: Right, right. For sure. And then, you get to Quebec and like, you were on and you were a team-mate of Guy Lafleur.

MATS SUNDIN: Unbelievable.

PA: You want to talk about learning from people?

MATS SUNDIN: Exactly.

PA: You learn your.

MATS SUNDIN: Joe Sakic.

PA: Yeah.

MATS SUNDIN: And Guy Lafleur. And my first game coming out of the rink, you know, leaving my, my childhood room back in Sollentuna to earn a living with my parents. And, you know, after a few weeks, I walk in the room for my first game and I was there three hours ahead of the game, like I was so nervous. And in the National Hockey League, just a perfect, all the sweaters are up there. And there was my name with Sundin and 13 and Joe Sakic and Guy Lafleur. [Inaudible] everything was gone, like his sweater, pants, socks, skates.

PA: You think if he didn't show up that day?

MATS SUNDIN: He's not going to play, or is he retired? And I walk around the corner and he's, I think is already 40 or 39 at the time [PA: Yeah, he is.] He's all dressed, skates on and everything and is doing a stick and he looks over when he hear me coming and he said "Mats." And a terrible, trying to do his French accent. "But it's great to see here in time. You know, preparation is everything if you want a long career. You're going to have a long, great careers." And he kept doing his stick and that's very important. I'll never forget that moment.

PA: And he told you to shoot the puck more.

MATS SUNDIN: Every day. [PA: Really, eh?] "Shoot the puck." [In fake French accent] "Tavernac. Shoot the puck." "Mats, don't pass it."

PA: So, I lived in Quebec City for a long time. The ghosts of the Nordiques are still everywhere in that town. You were just there. But you leave Quebec to go to Toronto. Traded for my beloved Wendel Clark. When you did get here, how welcomed did you feel?

MATS SUNDIN: Amy, my co-writer, Amy Stuart's favourite player as well. [PA: Right.] Yeah. No, it was a shock, the first press conference. That's, that's when I realised, "Oh, I got big shoes to fill here, Wendel." I realised that and being his, coming from Europe, big guy, I wasn't afraid of the physical part of the game in North America. But, I was, I mean my game was skills: Skating, passing shooting, producing points. Wendel, rugged, great shot, would drop his gloves [PA: Right] hitting guys, leading in a different way, great leader. So, it took me a good, I think, three years until I earned the respect. And they were like, you know what? He's going to be okay. But it took me many years to to earn the respect.

PA: I grew up in Toronto. I was born in '72. So you can imagine my image of Börje Salming is outsized. It's, he's, he's a giant. He was a giant for you. He was a mentor. He was a, you played with him. What did he mean to you?

MATS SUNDIN: I think he was a key man, and it was almost like it was meant to be. So, when I heard about the trade, I'm at Börje Salming's hockey school in Kiruna, a small mining town above the Arctic Circle [PA: Right, way up there] in Sweden. And I got a call and I said, "I'm going to the Maple Leafs." "That's great," he says, "You're going to be in the best franchise in the world, the biggest franchise." So, from that moment until, you know, being asked about the captaincy. First man I call was Börje Salming, and he right away said "Mats, you have to accept." And I said, "Why is that?" He said, "It's such a great honour." And he regretted he didn't accept it when he got asked.

PA: And he didn't accept it, in part because what? He felt his language wasn't good enough. But also you have a line that he felt the C was not just for captain, but for Canadian?

MATS SUNDIN: Yeah. And I think more than anything, he was such a laid-back, quiet guy. I mean, most Swedes are. [PA: Sure.] But he was very, and from the further north you come in Sweden, the more quieter people get. And he was certain like that. And, but when he reflected back on his career, that was one of his regrets.

PA: I was in the stands the night that he was honoured 2022 when they recognised him after his ALS diagnosis. It was an amazing moment to be a part of in the stands, not a dry eye in the house. You were out there on the red carpet with him and it was well, what was really telling you? I was there with my buddy Marcus, and he was saying, you know, "Hockey's a tough game. You know, it's rough and it's brutal, but there's a lot of emotion and clear emotion throughout both teams, everybody in the stands." You write about the emotion in hockey and about the familial bonds you form with these guys. Do you think fans might be a bit surprised by that still?

MATS SUNDIN: You know, I think it's easy when you're only getting the media feeds about what's going on with the team or the guys do the interviews and guys are, you know, [PA: trying to say the right thing] you know, you try to say the right thing. You're a team. You can't, you know, go on about everything else. And there's a lot of it. So, I, we hope that we can get the reader to actually reflect and get more of the human side of the players as well behind the scenes. And the moment, you know, I remember talking to Börje Salming's wife a couple of weeks going over and she said, "You're going to have to be prepared, Mats, because Börje has gotten a lot worse. [PA: Yeah]. Just the last three months. And that moment was devastating to see him in the shape he was in, and just understanding how that's going to end.

PA: It clearly meant so much to him, though.

MATS SUNDIN: Oh, yeah.

PA: It was so powerful.

MATS SUNDIN: Yeah. And for him to just to make it over to North America in the state he was in and, but it was a special moment. And I think the Toronto Maple Leafs did a great job handling it in a great way for Börje and his family. And it meant the world for him.

PA: The, the Leafs' quest for a Stanley Cup is ongoing. I think the closest we've come was recently was in 2002 when you and the team made it to the Eastern Conference Finals, Toronto against Carolina, Game 6 back in Toronto. The Leafs had to win.

SOUNDCLIP

[Announcer clip from Game 6 in 2002.]

PA: What else is new? Yeah. I get, I get shivers hearing that.

MATS SUNDIN: I got goosebumps in and out of my skull.

PA: So again, I was. I was covering that game. I was there. You tied it with seconds to go. That's not how it ended. How hard was that one?

MATS SUNDIN: Well, yeah, it was hard. I think any time you get beat up, beat out in the playoffs and we obviously never reached the finals, we were close a couple of years. We lost to Buffalo one year in the conference finals and against Carolina on this game. But just those runs in the playoffs, like, when you reflect back obviously right there and then, it's devastating. Everybody's crying and you put in so much time and effort since September and you fall just a little bit short. [PA: Just short.] You win 10 games, you got to win 16. [PA: Right.] You're not far away, but still far away, right? So, so, but reflecting back, it's you know, and I get asked the question: Do you have any regrets of not winning the Stanley Cup right? And I have zero because, you know, hockey and if you read the book, it gave me and my family so much unexpected happiness. And everything we have today is because of hockey, representing the Maple Leafs. So, you know, but I do say Toronto Maple Leafs fans deserves the Stanley Cup. And it's been a long time and, you know, that, that hurts that we weren't able to do that when I look back. But you know it's going to happen. It's just a matter of time.

PA: I'm a Leafs fan and I know how just bonkers we are and the pressure like it must be so much easier to go play in Utah or whatever and to come. What was it? How did you personally manage all of that scrutiny, all of that pressure of being in such a crazy market?

MATS SUNDIN: Yeah, just like it was said, there's no market. I don't care where you played in the world of hockey. You don't know what it means like to be a Maple Leaf until you wear the sweater. And then, it's a tougher market to play for many different reasons, you know, if not half the league. A lot of players in the league, they are from Ontario. When they come home and play the Maple Leafs, who are their childhood team growing up [PA: Right], their favourite team?

PA: They got to get 20 tickets for all their...

[cross-talk]

MATS SUNDIN: But also, even if they lost 10 games in a row, you're going to get their best game [PA: For sure.] So, there's many different reasons. And you know, you play in Tampa, Florida, or Vegas. I mean, Florida and Vegas won the Cup the last few times. The Stanley Cup champions are going to go through adversity, adversity through a year. There's going to be losing streaks. They're going to have people hurt. And but, it's not under the microscope the way it is on a daily basis, the way it is in Toronto. And it adds pressure, even though the players, most of them, I don't think, followed the everyday news. [PA: Right.] But it's still, you know, you feel a little bit of the pressure. So, it is a different world, but it's going to happen. And, and I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I would still would not want to win the cup in Las Vegas. The place to win the Stanley Cup is in Toronto because that's what it would mean the most.

PA: And you talk about that in the book. Those moments when the Leafs are asking you to waive your no trade clause. [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah.] And they're saying, hey, there's contenders out there that maybe you can go win a Cup with them. And you said, no, I want to win a cup in Toronto. You open the book with your jitters before the game, your first game. [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah.] Now, you've, you've taken a contract with the Vancouver Canucks. You're coming back for a game in Toronto. How did you feel in that moment coming back to Toronto? Because there's got to be a little bit of resentment that it didn't work out. Jitters that the fans are going to boo you or whatever. How are you feeling?

MATS SUNDIN: Well, it was, I mean, we play the finals in the Olympic finals, and it was my last chance to win Olympic gold in Torino in '06. But I would say that game, I was more nervous than, you know, try to win my first Olympic gold coming back. And and the reason for that is, I think, you know, personally, I understand the business of the game, right? [PA: Right.] Toronto Maple Leafs trying to do what's best for the organisation over time. There's no regrets there. But still, as a player, you still take it personally. You have so much time invested and effort and try to, you know, get to where, you, you want to go on the team and the organisation and the fans. So, it was a lot of emotions coming back and experienced that. And then I got to the, you know, the, the deciding penalty [PA: The shootout goal.]

PA: And so, we've got a part of your post-game interview with Elliotte Friedman. This is from February of 2009.

SOUNDCLIP

ELLIOTTE FRIEDMAN: The three stars, when you went out, you blew kisses to the crowd, you bowed and then the ovation in the first period. The media here has known you a long time. I think a lot of us have never seen you like that. How close were you to crying?

MATS SUNDIN: I was probably crying a little bit. 13 years in the city and with the team, it's been, it's been a lot of ups and downs, you know, a lot of emotions and a lot of great team-mates just passed by. And I mean, the fans and the organisation, it's been a very emotional ride. And so, it's been a build up for this game and it's nice to look forward now and no matter how this game would have ended or so forth, it wouldn't have changed my memories and my thought with the Leafs. It was always going to be the same, but this certainly ends in a nice way. [ELLIOTTE FRIEDMAN: Glad it's over?] Yeah, I know.

ELLIOTTE FRIEDMAN: Thanks a lot, Mats.

PA: I mean, we're just sort of pulling out all the stops here today. Try to give you as much nostalgia for your time here as possible. What goes through your mind when you hear that?

MATS SUNDIN: Well, I'm exactly, so I'm saying the same thing as I'm doing today, right? And right there, it was, it was emotional. It was, it was very nerve-wracking leading up to that. But at the same time, we try to reflect on it on the book, too. You know, once, it's weird how it was was, you know, once you play the game, you know, time stops and you live in the moment and you forget all about that. But that's, that's just what hockey is, you know? And that's the only thing I really miss about the game is that when you, when the puck drops, you're in the game. You live in the moment. [PA: Yeah.] And we have three kids and you're planning the next week or you're looking back, it's, it's hard to find those moments.

PA: You talk about mindfulness, hockey's great for that! Everything's [inaudible].

MATS SUNDIN: Exactly.

PA: And you had your first kid right after you retired, right? [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah.] A lot of the guys do it during their career. [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah.] Been able to be around. You guys moved back to Sweden [MATS SUNDIN: Yup] with your wife, Josephine. You have three kids. Is it your youngest son who's playing hockey?

MATS SUNDIN: Middle son. [PA: Middle son.] I try to get my youngest son. He's going to hockey school. Let's see.

PA: But what is it like? I mean, you remember you write beautifully about you and your dad driving dark through to, through Stockholm to go to, to games and practices. What's it like to be the guy driving and watching him? You talk about how he's kind of nervous [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah.] going through his own pregame [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah] rituals.

MATS SUNDIN: You know, I love it and I think it comes from my upbringing. And, you know, I'm not half as good or doing it as good as my parents did. But, but still, I go to every practice when I'm home to watch him. I go to the games. My daughter plays basketball. I love going to watch her game. Out of the three of them, I mean, Bonnie is the oldest, I have two sons. She's the most competitive. I guess she's, [PA: The oldest always are.] Yeah.

PA: Your older brother was, too.

MATS SUNDIN: Yeah. So, but it's great. I love that. And it's really a natural way of the next step in life. You know, we're our age, you know? I really love it.

PA: You were at the Leafs training camp this past summer? [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah.] Involved with the team. You're still like, like you say, the team has become a, they've done really good things in terms of, you know, celebrating some of the past. [MATS SUNDIN: Yes], they retired a bunch of jerseys finally. What is your advice to the guys that are on the team now about managing, about playing, about being in that moment and the mindfulness [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah] that comes with being?

MATS SUNDIN: Well, I was really happy to get invited by Bradshaw [inaudible] and the Leafs management to, to be part of camp for a few days. You know, I'm very impressed of the team. Obviously, I think everybody that watches the team knows what they're, what they can do on the ice, right? [PA: Sure.] Auston Matthews, not only one of the absolute best players in the world. He's a great guy. He's a natural leader off the ice. So, it's nice to be around the guys. And I think the most important thing is, is just continue to be the way they are and make sure they have a strong, strong bonds within the dressing room that starts in training camp. Keep building those throughout the season. The, there is going to be adversities. They're going to be a little more, you know, people going to see them a little more when in a market like Toronto and block that out and just keep driving and become a really tight group that buys into Coach's program and they're going to have a they're going to have a great spring.

PA: It's amazing in reading this book how, you know, you span these generations. You played with Guy LaFleur and then, you know, you play Michael Nylander, William Nylander's father [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah], and now you're still connected to these young guys. [MATS SUNDIN: Yeah.] Do you see is it still the same game, or is it, has it changed so much in those years that...?

MATS SUNDIN: I think the concept of winning, what it takes is the same. [PA: Yeah.] I don't think there's any difference. I think the teams are, are reading to be as close as you can be and pay the price that it takes to play now to two months, once the regular season is over, they're going to win. I don't think that's changed. The game has changed and the pace is up in the game. There's no hook in, in holding. [PA: Right.] They got rid of that, you know, at the end of my career. So, you see more skill right through the line up. So, the pace is up. But, but at the end of the day, you know, you know, you have to, if you're going to win a championship, yes, you got to score goals. You've got to play good defence and you got to get good goaltending. So [PA: Yeah] you need to have the complete package.

PA: I'll put you on the spot here. Do you think the Leafs will win the Stanley Cup in your lifetime? In my lifetime?

MATS SUNDIN: Of course, of course.

PA: Sure. All right. We're going to leave it there. Mats, thank you for this book. Thank you for all your time in Toronto. As a fan, it was really great to be a part of it. It's really nice to just get to chat with you today.

MATS SUNDIN: Thanks for having me.

PA: Mats Sundin's memoir was released earlier this week. It's called "Home and Away." Coming up after your regional update, few journalists working today have covered as many U.S. presidents as Bob Woodward. His latest book, "War" is about war in Ukraine, the war in the Middle East, and the war for the American presidency, presenting what he describes as an unwandered version of history. That's coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Peter Armstrong. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

And the couple in their 90s throwing kitchen parties

Guests: Bob Woodward,

PA: I'm Peter Armstrong. You're listening to The Current. Bob Woodward has spent a good deal of his storeyed career reporting on U.S. presidents and the power they wield. His first book, All the President's Men, co-authored with fellow Washington Post reporter Carl Bernstein, came out 50 years ago. It gave readers a behind-the-scenes look at the Watergate scandal that led to the downfall of President Richard Nixon. The 22 books that followed cemented Woodward's trademark style, detailed but intimate accounts that transported readers back to the rooms where history unfolded. His latest book, "War" is no exception. But this time, Woodward focuses on the legacy of not one, but two presidents, revealing how President Joe Biden's administration handled simultaneous wars in the Middle East and Ukraine, and contrasting that with events unfolding inside former President Donald Trump's inner circle as he prepares for a second run at the presidency. Bob Woodward, good morning.

BOB WOODWARD: Morning.

PA: I want to get into the many revelations that you have in this book, but just to sort of set the stage and frame this for us, why did you want to focus on these two conflicts and the contrast between these two camps? What was it about that framing that drew your eye to it?

BOB WOODWARD: Well, first of all, wars define history and how we get involved or don't get involved in those wars is hugely significant.

PA: Right. And was it the, the contrast between those, like, did you have that sort of framing how it sort of worked between the two camps as you started reporting it? Or did that framing mechanism kind of emerge as you got deeper into your reporting?

BOB WOODWARD: Well, I tried to stick to the reporting. And what I find and I let that drive what I write and make it as empirical as possible [PA: For sure.] And I tried to avoid getting into the political cross-currents, which are, of course, quite intense.

PA: Right. Let's get into the meat of it, because, boy, you made a lot of news here. One of the things that's been reported on the most is the Biden administration's concern in 2022 that Russian President Vladimir Putin might turn to nuclear weapons in his bid to win the war in Ukraine. How real was that threat in that moment?

BOB WOODWARD: Well, it was taken very seriously by the White House here, and rightly so. When people start talking about using nuclear weapons, particularly in the case of Putin. Deep, deep worry. There is a scene I have in the book where Secretary of Defence from the United States here, Lloyd Austin, actually calls the Russian Defence Minister and says "Right now, we are kind of, we know you were kind of bullied in the use of tactical nuclear weapons in Ukraine," and then lays out the consequences. It's a very sophisticated look examination the dangers of using nuclear weapons. And so when the call is ended, the Russian Defence Minister Shoigu says, "I don't take kindly to being threatened." And Austin gets one of the great lines of I think, "Mr. Minister, I am the leader of the most power--, powerful military in the history of the world. I don't make threats."

PA: You quote Biden talking to his National Security Adviser, Jake Sullivan. And the quote there that really stood out to me was Sullivan saying, quote, "We need to open up a channel, not in negotiating Ukraine, but on the United States and Russia avoiding cataclysm." And quote, "We have thus far avoided cataclysm." How did they pull that off?

BOB WOODWARD: Well, they you know, it's, it's delicate. And you've got to kind of pull back and look at who Putin is. And the attack on Ukraine. I mean, is, is just barbaric. And if you go into and as I do, the reason, it's kind of like Putin's concluded just very dramatically, well, Ukraine does not exist. So, the worry is so intense that Biden talks to Putin and also, Biden calls President Xi of China. And asks him to actually go public and say the obvious, but "Hey, let's avoid a nuclear war."

PA: So, you take that, these moments that are obviously tense, historically fraught, and you contrast that with Donald Trump's relationship with Vladimir Putin, which saw him I mean, secretly sending these COVID testing devices to the Russian leader. Tell me about that.

BOB WOODWARD: Not just the devices, but the very expensive equipment. [PA: Right.] It would be the people in this country. And this is while Trump is President of the United States, trying to protect the public as much as possible. But what happens in that conversation is really important, because Putin said to Trump, "Please don't tell anybody you sent these to me."[PA: Right.] And 'I don't care. I don't care. Fine." No, no. Putin, I mean, this is the leader, the autocratic leader of Russia. No, no, "I don't want you to tell anyone because people will get mad at you. Not me." And I mean, here is Putin forming almost a public relations alliance with Trump to protect Trump. And of course, when this came out in the the book recently for the first time, the Kremlin, I was astounded, confirmed it. Said, "Oh, yes, this is exactly what happened." And, of course, Trump is so denied.

PA: Right. I mean, it's interesting that Trump, his claim is that his closeness with Putin is an asset. Right? And you reveal in the book that they continue to talk. What do you make of their relationship and where it might go if Trump does win the upcoming election?

BOB WOODWARD: Well, the CIA director, Bill Burns, reported, and I quote this in the book, and I think it's really important, Well, from Burns, "Putin manipulates is professionally trained to do that. Putin's got a plan, just as he did when Trump was in office and playing Trump." This is you know, the intelligence as I found in the recording on this is much better than people, I think, expected. We know we have at one point we had a human source in the Kremlin. So, pretty much we know what is going on and what the motives are. And this is a design by Putin. Just I think last week when he was being asked, "Well, have you talked to Putin?" He said, "Well, I'm not going to comment on that. But if I did, it would be smart."

PA: If you took a look at the digital copy that I have of your book, it is completely marked up and with frantic writing as I sort of burned through the Ukraine and Putin and Trump part of it. And then, my writing just explodes as you get into the Middle East and the relationship between President Biden and Israel, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Biden tells Secretary of State Blinken the quote was "I've committed my entire career to Israeli security." In separate tirades, he's got some nasty language about Netanyahu, an SOB, a liar, a bad effing guy. What should we take away from that, given that Biden and the U.S. largely speaking, remain such staunch allies and protectors of Israel?

BOB WOODWARD: Well, this is the conclusion that Biden makes, which is very, very severe. And about Netanyahu and he doesn't trust him at all. And to his close associates in the White House, he calls Netanyahu a liar. [PA: Right.] At one point, says that 18 of the 19 people who worked for Netanyahu are liars. So on a personal level, it's total distrust. But there is a policy alliance. And the United States under Biden does support Israel, but there is that personal tension.

PA: Your overall assessment of Joe Biden is that he'll be studied in history as an example of steady and purposeful leadership. We also point out he he had some missteps, the chaotic exit from Afghanistan in 2021. 13 U.S. service members were killed. U.S. citizens were left behind. The Taliban swept back into power. How did those events shape Biden's responses to the other two global conflicts that he focussed on?

BOB WOODWARD: Well, Afghanistan hurt him, and it's a stain that's never going to be erased. It was, it was a mistake. But what Biden has done is, he's 81 years old. He knew Vietnam. He was in Congress. He was in the Senate at this time. And he, he really saw what happened to the United States with Vietnam, of sending American troops to fight in a foreign war. United States during the Vietnam era. It's almost unbelievable, the recall that United States sent half a million troops to Vietnam, 58,000 died in this. And what Biden did, he realised getting American troops involved in a foreign war is a path you don't want to go on unless the United States has been attacked directly. I'm not. I mean, there are scenes in the book which I think are very essential to the understanding of history. And Biden just saying, "I'm not sending American troops to Ukraine." And he's getting pushback from people. He said, "I'm just not doing it."

PA: Let's talk a bit about this election campaign specifically and the possibility that Donald Trump could return to office. A lot of people that kept Trump and his presidency in check during his administration are now actively campaigning against him. His inner circle is completely depleted. What does an unchecked Donald Trump presidency look like, do you think?

BOB WOODWARD: Well, you need to [inaudible]. And, you know, here his former top military person, General Mark Milley. I quote Milley in my book talking about Trump. And Milley is a respected, experienced military person. I quote him saying that "Trump is the most dangerous person that really says that Trump is a fascist to the core." [PA: Right.] You know, one of the top people in your government really making that indictment based on years of personal experience.

PA: I want to ask you about the role of the media in all of this. You know, there's endless debate about the coverage of Trump, what we learned in 2016, what we've learned since, how our coverage has worked in this election in general. There's, there's an awful lot of, I think, justified criticism that there wasn't enough reporting early on about Biden's cognitive issues. Outlets have been accused of, you know, sane washing or downplaying Trump's behaviour. You've interviewed him more times than anybody I get to talk to on the regular. Where do you see room for improvement in our coverage, I mean?

BOB WOODWARD: Well, some of it was good. Some of it was not. I mean, the my posture always is be aggressive and then, be more aggressive and then, be more aggressive to find out actually what happened. In this book, you, you go to the room, it's, there are quotes from documents, from firsthand witnesses. And so, you see not a longer version of history, but an unwandered version of history.

PA: Before I let you go, I want to ask about the, the opening scene in your book. You start with a story about Trump that dates back to 1989. You and your friend and colleague Carl Bernstein met him at a party. And you wind up interviewing him at his insistence. You joked with Trump about that. You called it the loss tape over the years, but you actually found it. Can you just tell us when you did revisit that conversation, 2024, what it revealed to you?

BOB WOODWARD: Yes, and it opens the book because it's Carl Bernstein and I worked on the Watergate story, [PA: Of course], interviewing Trump before. And, Trump's just a real estate king in New York City. He's not in politics. He's got nothing to do with politics. And quite frankly, Carl's insistence we have to, let's, let's talk to this guy, Trump, who's interesting. And Trump reveals his whole mode of operation, what he believes. You really, it's the, the origin, the seed of Trumpism. And Trump says that "You don't feel that it's important, you learn not to fold and the way to deal with people." And just outright at this time says you either be a killer or you treat them with what he calls candy killer or candy or both. And there it is. And again, reminds, it certainly reminded myself and Carl Bernstein that you now see Trump, he hasn't changed.

PA: Well, listen, thank you for the book and thank you for, as always, for your reporting. And thank you for, for making time to speak with us today. It's been really nice chat with you.

BOB WOODWARD: Thank you, sir.

PA: Bob Woodward is a Pulitzer Prize winning reporter and author. His latest book is called "War.".

I'm Peter Armstrong. You're listening to The Current. And as you may have heard, Matt Galloway has been in the U.S. this past week speaking to Americans about the upcoming election. Matt was in two states primed to have a pivotal impact on voting day. In Tucson, he met with students at the University of Arizona attending a rally for conservative activist Charlie Kirk. Lots of young first-time voters all fired up for Donald Trump.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: It is my extreme honour to introduce Charlie Kirk.

[Crowds cheering]

MATT GALLOWAY: Hey. [cross-talk] Came from Canada down to Arizona to talk to people about the election. Can we ask you a couple questions?

Speaker 3: Tell us your names.

CAMERON KORTH: My name is Cameron Korth.

ZACHARY LOGAN: Zachary Logan.

MATT GALLOWAY: Why are you here on a Wednesday night?

CAMERON KORTH: To support the Conservatives and Charlie Kirk. I believe what he's doing is a great thing, going around on college campuses and spreading the word. I just believe we need Trump in office. We need to make America great again. And it's just not what it used to be.

MATT GALLOWAY: What does that mean "It's not what it used to be?"

CAMERON KORTH: No illegal immigrants coming in, no inflation like how it is. Gas shouldn't be $3.50 a gallon. Groceries are going to be this expensive.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you think is at stake in this election?

CAMERON KORTH: Everyhing. [MATT GALLOWAY: Everything.] Like World War Three, maybe. Issues in I mean, we already had two, two wars under her. What's, how do we know it's not going to go into anything else?

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you think?

CAMERON KORTH: Absolutely. I mean, I think the economy could crash very soon. And I think that we can end up in World War Three in a year.

CAMERON KORTH: We shouldn't be sending billions of dollars to Ukraine and to Israel when we have people in Florida and North Carolina who lost all their homes and they get $750 and a [expletive] from the government. So, that's not cool.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you think of Trump himself?

CAMERON KORTH: I think he loves America. I think, you wouldn't be. What how many years is he facing in prison? Hundreds of years in prison on federal charges. You're going to be getting shot at, multiple assassination attempts, and keep on fighting for the country if he didn't want the best for it.

MATT GALLOWAY: And what about Kamala Harris? What do you make of her?

CAMERON KORTH: She's a joke. She's a joke. I don't think anything of her. She got chosen to be here. She wasn't elected democratically, nothing. She got put there.

PA: From the Grand Canyon State, Matt went north to Michigan. The margins there are about as slim as can be in Detroit while watching the Lions game. Autoworkers weighed in on what the transition to electric vehicles could mean for them.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Issues that matter to me the most are the economy. I work for one of the big three, so that is a really big talking point for me. That is one of my main reasons for voting. That is my livelihood and the livelihood of so many other people. I'm always concerned about the auto industry. Like any other industry, it's always an up and down period. But this is Detroit, the Motor City. I do have faith that we will preserve and we're going to come through, kicking. There's always going to be a transition in every industry, especially the auto industry. EV Cars, I hear, they're coming. You have to just be ready for it instead of trying to force it out or try to be dinosaurs about the situation. But like you should embrace that. You should get ahead of it and you should make the United States the lead manufacturer in EV cars.

PA: If you miss the two programs from Arizona and from Michigan, you can catch up online with the full podcast.

[Acoustic guitar strumming]

PA: I'm Peter Armstrong. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound of accordion playing]

NS VOICE 1: They clap when I walk through the door before I even play.

NS VOICE 2: My grandfather played the button accordion, my dad played, and they're both gone. So, somebody's got to keep it going.

PA: For a lot of people in Yarmouth County, Nova Scotia, music's in the bones.

SOUNDCLIP

ARNOLD NICKERSON: Well, it's just something that comes naturally, I guess.

PAULINE NICKERSON: [Woman yodeling].

ARNOLD NICKERSON: A little better with music.

PAULINE NICKERSON: He can yodel also.

ARNOLD NICKERSON: You're getting me in trouble here. We'll see.

PAULINE NICKERSON: They can't believe that we're, I'm doing this at my age.

PA: Pauline and Arnold Nickerson have been hosting Thursday night kitchen parties for nearly 15 years. They started when they were almost 80.

SOUNDCLIP

ARNOLD NICKERSON: This is my wife, Pauline, my wife of 72 years. And I would do it for 72 more years, wouldn't I?

PAULINE NICKERSON: I don't know what kind of a world it would be if it wasn't for music, miserable or Paris. I'm going to go do it. We love music.

[Concert in background at Pembroke, NS]

PA: Their jams are such a hit. They helped bring the tiny community hall in Pembroke back to life. Every week, it's packed and almost everyone in the crowd is a senior.

SOUNDCLIP

SENIOR VOICE 1: I'm 72.

SENIOR VOICE 2: My baby brother, it's my baby brother.

PA: We visited Pauline and Arnold's kitchen party on a pitch black country night to get a taste of what the music has done, not only for the little hall, but for the faithful crowd who never missed a week. Starting with a song Arnold wrote, the lyrics are framed and posted on the wall.

SOUNDCLIP

ARNOLD NICKERSON: This just happened to come to me one afternoon and within a few minutes, really. And I put it down. And now, it's our theme song. So, we sing. We started our kitchen party every week with that song. There's a little hole in Pembroke not far from Yarmouth Town...

PAULINE NICKERSON: Where lots of people gather and love to sing some song.

ARNOLD NICKERSON: We're playing all over the country, people just out for a little while. At our Pembroke kitchen party, we welcome everyone.

[Arnold Nickerson singing]

SENIOR VOICE 3: It has given me life. I'd be sitting at home doing nothing, you know. And you look around, we're all basically the same age. I just love it. I just love it. I'm not very good at it. I've only been at it a short time, but since I got into this, it took me big time. I sold my motorcycle, bought a guitar. So, there you go.

[Sound of accordion playing]

SENIOR VOICE 3: Living in this area, I know of six kitchen parties. Six of them. And there could be more that I don't know of. Wish there were younger people here. You know, I really do. I love it when I see one come in. But they seldom do. They seldom do.

[Guitar and accordion playing]

SENIOR VOICE 4: We come and we have fun. I have fun. I don't know what I'd do if I didn't, if I didn't have the opportunity to sing and play. I've been singing since I was a little fella, learned to sing in Church. I feel so bad for people that don't get the opportunity to come and see something like this.

[Folk instruments playing.]

PAULINE NICKERSON: It brings me back to the time when I was young. I can remember I loved music so much that my father, he had a little shed out back and I took my mother's [inaudible] in her room and I went out in that little shed, and I was there playing and thinking I was playing the guitar because I loved to play and sing because I couldn't afford. It was hard times then. The first time I got a cheque, I sent to Sears and bought myself a guitar. So, I taught myself how to play and I taught my husband how to play. But he picked up a lot more after that.

[Folk music playing]

PAULINE NICKERSON: I don't feel my age. I still think I'm young, and I, I just feel like I'd love to play my guitar again.

SENIOR VOICE 5: Grab a guitar, grab anything and give it a go. I was 72 when I when I started and I wish I had started early, but I'll never be anything but a strummer. But I'm a happy strummer. I'm having a good time. Pauline and Arnold, in my opinion, have saved this hall. This hall would've went down, you know, without him.

PAULINE NICKERSON: I think they really all enjoy it, don't you, Arnold?

ARNOLD NICKERSON: Oh, yes. Yes, they do. That's what it's all about. A good time. Something to look forward to in the week.

PA: Pauline and Arnold Nickerson are singing some of the same songs they learned when they started dating about 75 years ago. She's now almost 93. He's 94. Pauline says her doctor credits music and her kitchen party friends for keeping her healthy. She just cooked Thanksgiving dinner for her family at home. And after all these years, Pauline and Arnold have been thinking it may be time to retire from hosting their kitchen parties. But for now, they just can't give it up.

[Arnold Nickerson singing]

PA: And that's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. And remember, you can listen to The Current live on the CBC News app. Stream CBC Radio through the app wherever you are, and just select Local and then tap on the bright yellow Listen Here button. You can also find and follow us wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Peter Armstrong, been sitting in for Matt Galloway this week. Thanks for having me. And thanks for listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Friday, October 25, 2024 Full Transcript

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