Tapestry@25: scholar of Buddhism and deep ecology Joanna Macy

For years, Joanna Macy has been telling people, "Don't be afraid of the dark." 

Whatever darkness you feel, whatever anguish or pain, she says, it's not only OK to feel that way, it's pretty much imperative.

Tapestry host Mary Hynes spoke to Macy in the fall of 2006.

During this challenging moment all over the world, Macy's message is more relevant than ever. 

"Be with this information, let's just be with it. And that's a way of not being afraid of the dark — to just be with. I think that's the definition of compassion, to be with the suffering of our world," she said at the time.

Macy is a scholar of Buddhism, general systems theory, and deep ecology. She offers a new way of thinking in times of danger.

Macy draws on her systems theory studies to remind us of the power of community and collaboration.

"We've heard that said, 'Oh dear, what's new, the whole is more than the sum of the parts.' And yet, when people come together to make a system — whether it's a study action group or a church supper or a quilting bee or a barn raising or an urban garden — something emerges from their work together that was not there before," Macy said, "and that is like magic."

The core of life is calling you awake with kisses of oxygen and flaming trees and the beat in your own heart.- Joanna Macy

And she widens the lens to remind us of the interconnectedness of everything, a particularly poignant message at this moment of isolation and physical distancing.

"More than anything else, you are life expressing itself in this time. And you've been brought to a time of great danger, and so it's to be tended to. But you're not going to attend to it just by thinking that you're a smart Joanna or a gifted Mary Hynes but that you are an embodiment of life itself," Macy said. 

"The core of life is calling you awake with kisses of oxygen and flaming trees and the beat in your own heart. And this gravitational force that spins galaxies and shapes stars is none other than ... your capacity to love and rejoice and know your belongingness."

This interview was produced by Susan Mahoney and Marieke Meyer.