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TRANSCRIPT: TAI ASKS WHY – DANCE

Tai Poole: Can I tell you something that you won’t tell anybody else? I need you to promise. Yeah? Well, OK. Sometimes... I get this weird urge to dance. [Clip of upbeat music] I’ll hear a song and I think it’s kind of cool and I feel the rhythm and I just get my groove on. I don’t really know why I do it, it’s just kind of like an impulse. [music continues] When I’m bored, sometimes I’ll just wave or flap my arms around just for the sake of it. And it’s fun, until I’m in a situation where I have to dance with other people. You know like at a party or something like that, then, I’ll get super embarrassed about it. And all of a sudden I’m in my head and then, I’m frozen. So, what’s up with that?

Tai Poole: I mean, what is this dancing impulse? And why is different when other people are around? What purpose does dancing even serve? ‘Cause, you know, it’s not something humans have to do. It’s not a life or death thing. It doesn’t make it easier for us to get food and it’s not going to help us escape from predators. There has to be more of a reason than just, it’s fun… right? So, what is happening in our brains when we dance? Why do we dance at all?

[Clip of “Tai Asks Why Theme Music” by Johnny Spence]

Tai Poole: I’m Tai, and this is my podcast, Tai Asks Why. There a ton of great questions out there that you just want to have answered. What’s going on in my teen brain? How is the universe going to end? Where’s the internet? What’s the deal with screen time? How else can we power the planet? And why do humans dance?

Sound Clip: [Peter Lovatt] If I'm sitting at my desk working, I'll often groove while I'm working at my desk.

Tai Poole: This is Dr. Dance, oh sorry, I mean Dr. Peter Lovatt. Peter is a psychologist who researches what happens in the brain when people dance. He’s also a lifelong dancer. So, I thought he must be the perfect person to talk to about this. This guy really loves to dance. And I mean really loves to dance.

Sound Clip: [Peter Lovatt] When a rhythm gets inside of you, that’s for me, one of the highlights of life, just having that music, feeling it in my body and then responding to it in different ways. And what I absolutely love is playing a piece of music. Let's imagine something like, oh I don’t know, Donna Summer "I Feel Love". [Clip of “I Feel Love” by Donna Summer] And this piece of music is just brilliant because it builds and builds and builds, [music continues] and what you could end up with in the end is three or four different parts of your body moving to three or four different parts of the rhythmic signal. And it hasn't got to be Donna Summer, “I Feel Love”. It hasn't got to be classic disco. It can be any kind of music at all. Classical music, [Clip of classical music] folk music, [Clip of folk music] jazz music [Clip of jazz music], all of those things get inside of us and help us to move. And that, for me just is the most beautiful, beautiful time of life.

Tai Poole: Like I said, the guy loves to dance. But that thing he said about rhythm getting inside of us and making us move. That’s my whole problem, like, why does it do that?

Sound Clip: [Peter Lovatt] Dancing is a fundamental part of being a human. Such that I believe, we are born to dance. I mean, of course we know that there's no culture anywhere in the world where people don't naturally dance. And then when we look at dancing from through a scientific lens, it's amazing the things that we find. You know, there've been some experiments on two- or three-day old babies. And they put a brain cap on them to measure their neural activity and then put some headphones on through which they play music. And what we know is that they have an expectation of hearing rhythm and responding to rhythmic patterns. So, we know that perception of rhythm is innate. And then we know that from sort of five or six months of age, when you get a little tiny child and you play music to them, it starts to shake its body in response to that rhythm. And what's extraordinary is that when it moves its body, it also smiles. [Clip of baby giggling]

Tai Poole: OK. So, it’s something we’re literally born to do. We come out of the womb dancing no matter where in the world we’re born. But why wouldn’t making a big scene and flailing around attract predators?

Sound Clip: [Peter Lovatt] Well, that's one of the things you might well be doing. So, making yourself big and showing yourself to potential predators is one thing. Another thing might be showing yourself to potential mates, because Charles Darwin argued that dancing forms part of the human mate selection process in a very similar way that it does for some birds.

Tai Poole: Oh yeah. I actually have seen that in a nature documentary once. These male birds do super-elaborate dances to try and win over the lady birds. They even have like these dance competitions between the other dude birds. But let’s be real, I’m only 14, I’m not trying to start a family right now so there must be other reasons that my body moves to the grooves.

Sound Clip: [Peter Lovatt] People dance to become socially bonded. We know that movement changes people's emotional state. We know that dancing is a fantastic health regulator. And of course, we know that movement changes the way that we think and solve problems. So, we think that dancing has evolved to facilitate all of those processes, the social, the thinking, the emotional and the physical.

Sound Clip: [Tai Poole] So you mention a groove a lot. And we talked about how the little bébés, they feel the rhythm and they kind of vibrate when they hear that stuff. How are music and dancing or the groove connected?

Sound Clip: [Peter Lovatt] OK, so the groove, I know it’s a groovy term, but it also has a psychological element to it. Now, what the groove is, it isn't necessarily movement per se, but it is about an urge to move. And it might be we might express it in muscles which are very internal to us. So, nobody else can see those muscular twitches happening inside our body. And other urges are expressed in a slightly larger way. Now, we know that the human brain has multiple systems in it which are responsible for timing. We know that the heart beats rhythmically and we know that our brain functions in a rhythm as well. There’s two different timing signals in the brain. One is responsible for maintaining our internal rhythm, and the second one is responsible for us synchronizing our timing to the external world so that when we walk with a friend or a colleague, we start walking in time with them. And what the groove is doing, this idea of groove, of music, it's stimulating those different timing systems in the brain.

Tai Poole: So, my heartbeat is like this internal metronome, keeping the beat inside of me. And the groove helps me to sync up my heartbeat with other rhythms in the world including other people’s heartbeats. It’s cool to think that we’re all these walking groove machines.

Sound Clip: [Peter Lovatt] And now that's amazing, right? So just imagine what your brain has to be able to do to watch somebody moving, and for your brain to be able to produce those movement patterns by communicating with your muscles and your limbs to have that synchronized movement going on. There's some fantastic research which shows that when people move in synchrony with one another they report liking each other more. They then report trusting each other more. They report feeling more psychologically similar to the other people. And then when people run together and they move together, they start to coordinate their movements, which means that groups of people can run further than individuals can run, and they start to attune their rhythms with one another.

Tai Poole: Wow. So, moving as a group seems pretty important, like it can make you all stronger together. And building trust and literally helping you go further than if you were on your own. It’s a powerful thing to sync up like that. It makes me think about the Haka. My mom is from New Zealand, and the Indigenous Maori people have a ferocious group dance called the Haka. [Clip of battle Haka] It’s a dance warriors do for their enemies, to scare them off. It’s pretty incredible to watch these strong warriors moving in unison with these power moves. It’s intense, and kinda scary, but it’s also danced to welcome people, or to express grief when someone has died. [clip continues]

Tai Poole: So yeah, you can feel a lot of things together when you’re dancing in a group. And Peter says paying attention to each other’s movements tells us other stuff too.

Sound Clip: [Peter Lovatt] Let's imagine you're, you know, sitting in your house and looking out your window and one of your close friends walks past the house. You could probably tell what kind of mood that person is in by the way they're walking. But we also communicate so much more as well. Some research has shown that we communicate our hormones and our genes through the way we move our body too. And that is really amazing. So, your testosterone level might be communicated through your movement patterns, or a person's fertility might be communicated through the way they move too.

Sound Clip: [Tai Poole] So dancing or just movement in general can help relay things that we aren't really able to do with normal language that we have now, like speaking?

Sound Clip: [Peter Lovatt] Yeah, absolutely. And this is one of the consequences, we think, of dance, and movement obviously pre-dating verbal language. We're able to communicate with our bodies in a way that's so much richer than with the words we've got.

Tai Poole: [clip of upbeat music] So, we’re born to dance, our bodies are full of rhythm and we can use movement as a way to connect and communicate with people. All of this is great except I still don’t feel comfortable flailing my limbs in front of other people. There’s something really embarrassing about dancing. And I’m not the only person that feels this way. [music clip continues]

Sound Clip: [Finn] I don't like the idea of moving my body to the sound of music.

Tai Poole: That’s my good friend Finn. He’s not such a big fan of bopping around.

Sound Clip: [Finn] I don't know, it’s just like wiggling, like, just weird. There’s something weird about it for me, I guess like, it’s just a way to exercise I guess. I don’t know, what’s, like why do we want to dance? It’s just weird. [music clip continues]

Tai Poole: My little brother Kien feels pretty much the same.

Sound Clip: [Kien Poole] I don't get it. It seems like a cool thing to do with other people, in like a crowded group where no one sees me. But I, no I just don't like to dance. It’s hard, dancing, certain types of dancing require lots of strength and energy. Because dancing’s pretty exhausting, it can be very exhausting.

Sound Clip: [Tai Poole] Yeah, I don’t really like to dance that much, but why don't you like to dance.? What do you have against it?

Sound Clip: [Kien Poole] I just never do it. And I just have got into a habit of not doing it. I'm sure if I was like, if we had like dance parties every so often then I'd be into dancing but I'm just not ‘cause I don’t.

Tai Poole: So, I had to ask Peter about this and even though he’s a certified dance nut, he gets that it’s not that easy for everyone to get into the groove.

Sound Clip: [Peter Lovatt] Some people get really intimidated and feel really self-conscious by the thought or act of dancing. It's a way of connecting with other people at a very different level. When people come up to us and we start moving together and shaking around, it's a fantastic way of connecting with that person. But some people feel intimidated about communicating stuff about themselves. So, Tai, do you dance, do you dance very much?

Sound Clip: [Tai Poole] No, our family just doesn't dance much. I mean, we are quite musical. We listen to a lot of music, but we just don't really dance a lot.

Sound Clip: [Peter Lovatt] Why is that?

Sound Clip: [Tai Poole] I don't know. I guess, it's just not a big thing for us.

Sound Clip: [Peter Lovatt] What a shame.

Sound Clip: [Tai Poole] It really is. I'm not necessarily self-conscious, but I'm just not a big dancer. I just don't dance much, and I just don't think I've gotten very good at it because of that.

Sound Clip: [Peter Lovatt] OK. Can I… of course, I have full respect for you, but can I just correct you on one thing when you say you're not very good at it, because it's like me asking whether you're a good breather. You're an expert breather, you do it all the time. And as a mover, you probably move all the time as well. As soon as we start making judgments about people's ability to dance, then, of course, they become even more self-conscious. And when they become self-conscious, their muscles get tightened up and it becomes a lot less pleasurable. And also, psychologically, people communicate much more poorly through that because it's like having lots of noise in the system.

Sound Clip: [Peter Lovatt] You just can't see the signals coming out. So, what I would love to do is to get rid of the notion that people are either good or bad dancers, because if we're going out and we put some music on and we just wanna have a bit of a groove, then you don't need to. It's not about being good or bad, it's just letting that groove come from your brain. Well, from the senses first, we hear the music and then it activates the premotor areas of our brain. This activates the motor areas of our brain. And then we should just let those parts of the body move in response to the signals. We just need to let ourselves go and to be a dancer. [Clip of upbeat, rhythmic music]

Tai Poole: What Peter said really stuck with me… ‘cause dancing seems to have so many benefits, and we might feel the groove within us, but sometimes there’s just those little voices in our head that say, “Ah! You’re a bad dancer!” or, “Your body is weird and if you move more it will make other people look at it,” and it all becomes this noise that prevents the dance monster from being unleashed. It’s just not that easy to get over these little voices in your head, you know?

Sound Clip: [Tai Poole] It seems like our family might not be born to dance, but do you think people can learn how to dance or get better at dancing?

Sound Clip: [Kien Poole] Most people aren't born good dancers, but like, even if you don't get near the zone much you can practice. You can listen to your favourite songs and just let go of your Earthly tether, you know. Just dance. And yes, you can get better at dancing, ‘cause there’s no way professional like, like break dancers were born like that when they were a baby. They learn.

Sound Clip: [Tai Poole] Well I'm so glad to hear you say that because guess what Kien, I signed our family up for a dance class. Sorry, it's in like ten minutes. Let's get ready. We all have to do it. Nice try. You can't escape it. Let’s go.

Sound Clip: [Kien Poole] Fine. [Clip of upbeat music]

Tai Poole: That’s right people, we’re gonna dance. We headed over to a playground near our house for a socially distanced dance class. [Clip of people greeting each other indistinctly] Ashley Perez, also known as Colours, is a dancer and choreographer who’s been teaching for nearly 20 years! And I found out she’s actually a friend of my mom’s!

Sound Clip: [Colours] I know. Such a small world.

Tai Poole: Colours does urban street dances, so like whacking, voguing, hip-hop, things like that. And she told me that these dances were created by people improvising on the street and in underground dance battles, where people would dance with their feet instead of fighting with their fists! [Clip of dance class getting started] She’s here to teach us some basic dances, but more to just to get us grooving.

Sound Clip: [Colours] Pose, pose, stop. OK, so now let’s…

Tai Poole: Colours is now showing us how to power pose. [clip of dance music]

Sound Clip: [Colours] Five, six, seven, and…

Tai Poole: Who would’ve known that my mom and dad actually got some moves! Like, where have you been keeping them all this time?

Sound Clip: [Colours] Good. Look at dad, this is like, dad’s like…

Sound Clip: [Minh Nguyen] Loving this.

Sound Clip: [Colours] Dad’s got it. He kind of secretly wishes he was like…

Sound Clip: [Nicky Poole] A B-Boy?

Sound Clip: [Colours] A B-Boy.

Sound Clip: [Minh Nguyen] Oh my gosh. This takes me back to like, my old-school ‘90s hip hop.

Sound Clip: [Colours] Good. Good, so we clap to the back. Five, six, seven, eight. Yes? Next move. Back, we’re gonna step back with our right, right. Left…

Tai Poole: Now, Colours is teaching my family a line dance called the electric slide. Me, mom, and dad were all having a good time. But at this point, Kien was just kind of tired, so he left and hung out by the swing set.

Sound Clip: [Colours] Let’s try that two more times.

Sound Clip: [Minh Nguyen] Hey Kien, come here please.

Sound Clip: [Colours] He’s hiding.

Sound Clip: [Nicky Poole] Kiki, come here.

Sound Clip: [Tai Poole] He likes dancing where no one can watch.

Sound Clip: [Colours] Oh he's gotta do it where nobody can watch. OK I’ll go in front.

Sound Clip: [Minh Nguyen] Ki, come here.

Sound Clip: [Colours] Take it back…

[music fades]

Tai Poole: Class was pretty exhausting, like it was a lot of cardio, but afterwards I also had that nice endorphin rush going on. It felt weird though knowing that Kien didn’t enjoy it that much. I guess it’s not that easy to break out of your shell. It takes time. It’s easy to just say, “Get over here and boogie” to someone else, but actually doing it yourself feels pretty scary. And honestly, I liked the moves, but I don’t think I would do them in front of my friends or anything. So, after the rest of my family went home, I wanted to talk to Colours about that, after all, she has been teaching dance for a long time.

Sound Clip: [Tai Poole] So, I mean, as you probably saw, I'm a little bit of a shy dancer. It took me a while to kind of warm up, but I think that’s just our family in general. So, when one of your students is kind of shy about moving, what do you do to try to help that?

Sound Clip: [Colours] You know, I used to really be on them. I’d be like, “Let's do this together and do it now.” But now I kind of just let people come into their own time with dance because you never know, it's just a different experience every time, and I just let everyone join dance when they're ready.

Tai Poole: I still feel a little bit shy. Maybe for me and Kien, it’ll just take a while, you know? Actually, Peter said something that I really think is gonna stick with me.

Sound Clip: [Peter Lovatt] What’s wonderful about dance is that it means so many different things to different people. And it doesn't have to be just one thing. So, and it doesn't have to be performative or even social. It can be a very private act.

Sound Clip: [Tai Poole] Yeah.

Sound Clip: [Peter Lovatt] Because even moving arrhythmically can still be dancing. Dancing is about movement. And it's just, if you have a heartbeat, if there's some connection somewhere, then even the smallest type of movement can be seen as dance. It's that, think of walking down the street. At what point, if I was to walk down the street 10 times and get slightly groovier each time, at what point would my normal walking, my functional walking, become a dance?

Sound Clip: [Tai Poole] It's at the beginning. You were dancing all along

Sound Clip: [Peter Lovatt] Yes. Yes.

Tai Poole: Maybe dancing doesn’t have to be this intimidating thing. Maybe I just have to let it happen naturally because moving with rhythm is what my body wants to do. And maybe I won’t be so scared about doing it in front of my friends, if they all do it too. So, I decided to go back and tell them what I learned.

Sound Clip: [Tai Poole] The thing is with dancing is that, even if you guys don't dance, you need to dance because it has health benefits apparently, like it makes you happier, it increases your mood. And, you know, when you say, when, because I know you're all going to say, “Well I'm not very good at dancing.” The thing is you are. And the trick about dancing is to think that you're good at dancing, because it's a way to communicate, and it’s a way to talk to someone. So, if you're just kind of like all rigid and stiff then you're withholding yourself, but if you're ready to open up and express yourself then you really get your boogie on.

Sound Clip: [Kaden] Maybe that's why TikTok is such a big thing. [whole group laughs]

[Clip of “Tai Asks Why Theme Music” by Johnny Spence]

Thank you guys so much for listening. I'm Tai Poole. This show is produced by Amanda Buckiewicz and Judy Ziyi Gu. Judy’s also our digital producer. This podcast was created by Veronica Simmonds and she is also our editor and sound designer. The theme music is by Johnny Spence. Some of the groovy dance class was by Jay Andrews. Sound engineer is my papa, Minh Nguyen, and our location manager is my maman, Nicky Poole. Thanks guys for helping me make the podcast, for dancing with me. Dad, I’m not convinced that you weren’t part of a boy band before.

Today my guests were Peter Lovatt and Ashley ‘Colours’ Perez. Check out Peter’s book, it’s called “The Dance Cure”.

Colours teaches socially distanced classes, and you can find her on Instagram @classwithcolours. That’s colours with a “U”, no spaces.

Special thanks to Austin Pomeroy for his assistance. Thanks also to my little bro Kien and Finn who told me how they really feel about dance. Our senior producer is Tina Verma and Executive Producer of CBC Podcasts is Arif Noorani.

Till next time, I’m Tai, keep asking why.

Transcript: Tai Asks Why - Season 3: Why Do Humans Dance?

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