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Rethinking Recess Transcript

Host: Piya Chattopadhyay

Interview with Lauren McNamara

Guest: Lauren McNamara

LAUREN MCNAMARA: Good morning, thank you for having me.

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: So you just heard, Blake, say that recess is just as important as class time. What do you say?

LAUREN MCNAMARA: Yes, definitely just as important. I think that over time we put this value on recess and play as sort of trivial and not the purpose of schooling. When you hear from the kids, it's a whole different thing. And I think one of the most important things that the kids taught me is it's not necessarily a break from class or fresh air, physical activity. It is all those things, but the primary reason what matters to them is it's social. If the pandemic has taught us anything is how critically important our need for social connection is. It's right up there with hunger.

PC: We heard those kids in that tape talking about cohorts during recess and not being able to see... one of them said, I'm not allowed, you know, I can't see my close friends. And for people who don't know, this is a pandemic thing in most schools in Canada, cohorts means that kids are divided into smaller groups that they must stick to. In most cases, you stick with the kids in your classroom during recess, during class time in order to reduce exposure to the virus generally and hopefully reduce the spread of COVID 19. So when you hear kids talk about cohorts, how common are they in Canada and do you think at this point to appreciate that we're in the midst of a pandemic, that they're a good idea?

LAUREN MCNAMARA: Cohorts are common, but the size of the common cohorts differ. For example, I know in the Niagara area, I think it's up to 50 children are allowed so they can have two cohorts together outside, whereas in some areas in B.C. they have 100 and then some principals are trying to stagger recess. So I'm hearing that they're cutting out one recess in order to accommodate, you know, another cohort so kids could potentially be getting less recess. I'm also hearing no toys, no balls. I think there's a fear of being able to keep it clean and sterilised. And so the kids again are bored. So I think one of the things that we might want to consider is especially if they're not having friends in their cohort find ways to get them connected.

PC: We heard Allison Blake say, you know, not only does this mean that they can't see some of their friends, it could also mean being stuck with a bully and really having no place to get away from that bully, right?

LAUREN MCNAMARA: Yeah, because I know a big problem with recess is if you are being victimised, you have nowhere to go. There's nowhere to hide. You know, we've taken out all the sight lines and it's completely sterilised barren environment. So without any equipment and any activities, there's really no where to go. And I've seen kids hiding in basement window wells and waiting at the front door. I've had kids tell me that the best thing about recess is when it’s over.

PC: And Lauren, you've written that, as you know, students return to in-person school, that catching up on recess might just be more important than catching up on classroom learning. It's a pretty bold statement. Why do you say that?

LAUREN MCNAMARA: I think initially going back after the pandemic, our biggest concern was that children's mental health is in decline. And so there's a very strong narrative that kids have gotten behind educationally and we need them to catch up. And so I think there was this fear of, we’ve got to be very careful not to race, to catch up without kind of giving them the opportunity to reconnect and to heal. And a lot of kids do that through play and outdoor play. And so it's not really that bold of a statement. If you think about it, it's fuelling that basic need that they have to connect, then they can learn much better.

PC: You have researched the merits of recess deeply. So back it up. What does the science say to back up the idea that recess is this important to a student's development?

LAUREN MCNAMARA: There is so much research in the last 20-25 years on belonging, social connection, play, fresh air, being outside, physical activity, all of those things that happen during this space are the foundation for learning. They're the foundation for well-being and well-being... you need to have good, strong well-being to be a very good learner. Healthy learners are better learners.

PC: You have a personal story that reinforces why recess is so important to you.

LAUREN MCNAMARA: My story starts back in grade one. Shortly after grade one started for me, I had my birthday party in a roller rink. And you remember those disco balls and the Bee Gees playing and in the middle of the... of the evening, the deejay turned off all the lights and he asked me to skate towards the centre of the rink and everyone would sing me, Happy Birthday. And I was too scared to do it. So I asked the girls, my whole cohort classes with me. I asked the girls to come with me, we linked arms and we skated towards the middle of the ring. And about just before we got to the spotlight, we all fell back like a wall. And I hit the back of my head because my arms were on the inside of the link. And it took about two and a half weeks to figure out that I had lost almost 90 percent of my hearing from that head injury. And at that night, that evening, I just kind of got up and looked around. Everyone was OK, carried on, opened presents. But when I finally got back to school a couple of weeks later, it wasn't until recess that I could actually see my friends and it'd been a while. I went running up to them. They came running up to me. Super happy to see them. And one of them looked at me and said, deaf girl, we want our presents back, and all the little girls behind her were chanting Deaf Girl, Deaf Girl. And the reason I tell that story is because that was grade one. And if you think about it, you're in elementary school from kindergarten to grade 8, through middle school. That's 10 years. And the developmental path, socially that can happen, really takes root there and gets reinforced. And so you can imagine someone like me experiencing that every single day at recess. You don't end up graduating high school and I dropped out. It's too difficult. And so the reason I use that story is because it sort of shows the emotional weight of that space. And when I work with the kids, the kids say the most important thing about recess, when I ask them that simple question, is being with friends, it's having my friends. And the worst possible thing about recess is being alone and not having any friends.

PC: Hmm. I'm really sorry that happened to you.

LAUREN MCNAMARA: Yeah, it took me a long time to ever tell anybody, and I think... What's important about that is that... and I've asked a lot of kids this is they tend to say, nobody cares, nobody listens, nobody does anything, there's nobody around to really... And I think that's what my research and my work is intended to do now is to make some change because for the longest time, I thought I was alone. And then I did this research, absolutely not alone. It's frightening to see the statistics of the kids who are being excluded, not only excluded but victimised. And it's still going on. I'm fifty three, right? And this is when I was six and I remember it like yesterday. So these... what I'm seeing in the space of recess. It's all still happening and we laugh about it. We look... we read stories from Diary of a Wimpy Kid and it's all, you know, part of the fabric of what we've sort of accepted as a rite of passage, and we can accept it like that anymore.

PC: What do you tell schools? I know you can't get into schools right now because of the pandemic, but what do you tell schools about how to make recess more inclusive for everybody?

LAUREN MCNAMARA: And so one of the things that I learned in my research, we were looking at all the different variables and playing around with them. And statistically, we were finding that when you increase belonging, victimisation goes down and vice versa. So in areas where there's high victimisation, there's low belonging, which seemed kind of straightforward. It's also predictive. So if we increase belonging, we can decrease victimisation. So that sort of became the design of the change that I wanted to see. How can we increase belonging in that space? And I really asked the kids, What do you need? And they gave me so much insight as to what... There are kids who are introverts and they need to be around people, but they don't want to be around people. They get their energy from just sitting quietly. But those are the targets of the bullies. And so they need a safe place to go and just be quiet. And so having a [inaudible] board and a trust board or a craft table, or some other quieter areas where kids can go or if there's a friend that's not there that day, they have a space. One of the things we see is if there's talk, if they're lucky to have a giant soccer field, that's a lot of space for maybe 10 to 15 percent of students who play. You've got 90 percent of the playground space. So, you know, maybe rethinking that a little bit and making some other areas for frisbee, for skipping, for... you know, the kids need more things than just soccer and basketball, which tends to be, you know, the traditional playground layout.

PC: And Lauren, you've also positioned recess beyond it being a belonging inclusion issue as an equity issue that its value can be different depending on who you are, where you live and what your family and community socioeconomic status is. Explain that to us.

LAUREN MCNAMARA: There is quite a disparity in some of the school playgrounds that you see. Some are completely barren, soulless, their lives have nothing, no play structures, no trees, really nothing out there other than asphalt. And others, you know, is just so rich and lush and inviting and playful. And so, I mean, there's no single one thing, but there are... parent councils are generally responsible traditionally to raise funds for the play structures, which is an equity issue. And in areas where there's high mobility and lots of moving and those places don't get a lot of people coming to school parent councils. And so you do see that equity issue. So I would like to see changes and we are seeing changes across the country in how provinces are adjusting, how much they invest in these spaces. And I think one of the great things that's happening with the pandemic is there's a lot of investment in outdoor learning. And so the two are going together and they're really focussing on the outdoor spaces.

PC: I do want to ask you about the United States because you've done work there where you saw recess time being pared down and a lot of schools, in other words, taken away or eliminated altogether to make space for other things. What's the thinking, the mindset behind that?

LAUREN MCNAMARA: You know, at least back then, when I first noticed this was around 1998, I was doing some research in Chicago and I noticed that they didn't even have recess. They didn't even have a playground. They, you know, the parking lot... you could see they were just, there were stencils, old stencils under the car. And I was so puzzled by that, and that's when I first started investigating. And at that point, they hadn't even had recess in about 10-15 years. The mindset really was you can't boost test scores and learning by playing, we need all the time to focus on instruction and learning. And I think that's a very, very common mindset. But the research speaks completely differently, and over the last 25 years, we have considerable research to show how that would backfire.

PC: By comparison, how well do Canadian schools do at recess generally or at least, how well were we doing before the pandemic?

LAUREN MCNAMARA: By comparison, I mean, we have a very similar set up in terms of our schooling and the break-up of our schooling days. And in terms of breaks and lunch. So I would say it's very similar. However, the silver lining of the pandemic really emphasises, I think with so many people, especially parents of young kids, how important play is, how important friendships are, and all that matters to that, that spark that they have, right, that, that life that they have. And so that emphasis that can feel that's carrying over and is really putting an importance on what school it really is about.

PC: So there's a moment. The pandemic, as brutal as it has been, as unequal as it has been. I think, as you just say, has laid bare some of the things we need to make changes in society and in this case, in schools. So here's your chance, Lauren. You've laid out the value of recess. I want you to dream big if you could redesign recess post-pandemic. Paint a picture for us of what that would look like.

LAUREN MCNAMARA: First and foremost, there would be someone in the school who's the forethought and the planner. I think recess has become such a big afterthought. And so we would have someone who is very dedicated in this school. We would have much more recess and better recess. We need recess in high schools. We don't have much recess in high schools. And I think again, that's come just from the mindset of we need to instruct, instruct, instruct. I would like to see more lush landscapes, less asphalt, more green. School boards are huge landowners and collectively, I think the greener, we can make them the better off collectively, our planet will be as well. And there's so much in the psychological literature of how important being outside in nature is. I would like to see a continuum of options for all kids at all ages, all preferences, all skills, abilities, inclusive, socially but inclusive physically. And that takes thought and that takes conversation and that takes planning and funding.

PC: You know, I have three kids in elementary school, and when they come home every day from school, I say, How was school? And you know what they talk about most?

LAUREN MCNAMARA: Recess.

PC: Yep. It's given me lots to think about. Thank you for making me reconsider my parents' view of recess because I think I'd like a lot of parents who are like, yeah recess. So thanks for giving us lots to think about. And I appreciate your time, Lauren.

LAUREN MCNAMARA: Thank you.

Transcript | Why catching up on recess may be as important as catching up on class

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