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SKS Season 5, E11: “I was here all night”

[Music: Theme]

DR: Just approaching Daphne Dilman's house…

DAPHNE DILMAN: Shut up Gunner!

DD: [off mic] He won't do nothing.

DD: Yep

DR: What's this dog's name?

DR: Gunner? Beautiful. Wow, look at those husky eyes. I'm looking for someone named Daphne Dilman.

DR: Oh that's you? Okay. Hi. I work for CBC radio...um...

[pause]

DR: It took me a few months to find Daphne , but a minute or two after meeting her and Gunner, I’m invited inside...

DR: Can I get him to turn the TV off?

DR: Okay. Is that ok? I'll take my shoes off.

DR: That’s great.

DD: I was born and raised in Thompson. I do know the Brown family. I know Trevor. Not very close. I did not know Kerrie cause I was only five years old at the time. I know their father, Jim. He was always coming into the bar where I worked, so I kind of got to know him a little bit. But [inhale] my father he has passed away since with ALS. And he was telling me some stuff. Now like I said to Trevor, we're not sure if it was the disease talking, but I can't see it being that.

DD: My father's name was Tim Smith.

DD: And so he was getting worse, and I was out at the farm visiting because we knew it was going to happen, just didn't know when. And he started telling me stuff about his childhood that I didn't even know. That nobody knew. And all of a sudden Kerrie Brown came up. And I asked him why did she come up all the sudden? And he was telling me that John Brewster had something to do with it.

DD: Yeah. They have a section in Thompson they call the Burntwood Trailer Court. It's all old trailers and a bunch of people that sold drugs and party houses. But at that point, I was trying to get more information out of my dad. And...I don't think he wants me ... or wanted me to know exactly everything. He just needed me to know that something happened. And I asked him 'well, how do you know it was Kerrie?' And he said well, it was kind of coincidental that this call came in and all of a sudden this girl is deceased. And I said 'but can you prove it?' And he's like 'well, I don't know.'

DD: He could have.

DD: Yeah. I don't even have that message anymore. Like I said, it was fresh just after me talking to my father about it when I gave him the information.

DD: Yeah. I asked my dad 'did you go to the police?' And he said 'yes.' The police were supposed to contact him back about an interview or something, and nothing was ever done.

DR: When did your dad pass again? What was the date?

DR: Shortly thereafter, Daphne messaged Trevor, who says he also gave the information to the police.

DD: No! Never! And I said to Trevor like this may be something, it may not be. I don't know. But because he told me this, I have to say something. But I just… I don't understand it.

DR: Looks like I’ll have to find John Brewster…

DR: I’ve been waiting for about an hour outside of this little row house, green row house.

DR: Waiting for John Brewster to come home.

DR: I’ve not seen a current photo of Brewster, but judging by the direction a man of the right age is taking on the lawn across the street, I’d say it could be him.

[Sound: Footsteps, cars go by, kids play]

JOHN BREWSTER: Not bad. How are you doing?

DR: I work for CBC Radio, and I do a podcast.

DR: It came off of a Facebook tip.

DR: Why would someone say something like that?

DR: I’m helping the family and it’s like…

DR: You’re supposed to...look down, run down all the things.

DR: So you drove a cab that night.

DR: Did you hear or see anything that was out of the ordinary?

DR: So the call… I’ll tell you what it was, okay, and you can tell me… Tim Smith says you called him that night and said you needed help because you’d done something bad. And it goes on to say I need help moving a body.

DR: That you, John Brewster, was supposed to have said.

DR: That’s what I want to…

DR: You never made a phone call.

DR: To Tim Smith that night.

DR: Never had anything to do with her murder.

DR: Based on John Brewster’s reaction to these allegations, his body language, and his volunteering to undergo a polygraph… I believe him when he says that he had nothing to do with Kerrie’s murder. Add to that, that key parts of Daphne’s tip don’t seem as clear cut now as when she communicated with Trevor. But there is one important finding from this part of the investigation...

JB: No. Gosh no.

DR: Some of the tips that I’ve chased down in my investigation of Kerrie’s murder had been, according to Trevor, given to the RCMP years earlier. But this tip at least, doesn’t appear to have been followed up on — other than a possible meeting with Tim Smith, back in the ‘80s.

DR: Well, I know it’s a shock… to, you know...

DR: But I gotta...track it all down. And I thank you for understanding that. So thanks very much.

SR: Take care.

[Sound: Walking]

DR: I’ve heard many, many names of potential suspects in my almost two years on the Brown case. And the stories about them can seem vivid and real. Brewster is a good example of this. And while Patrick Sumner remains a figure in Kerrie’s story, with some of my questions to him left unanswered...there are other tips and other people. Looking into these names and stories is an important part of the truth-finding process. But there are examples of tips that become difficult to fully track down. I’ve included some of these here, in this bonus episode, in the hopes that they may dispel, or at least help to clarify, some of the more tenacious beliefs or rumours that surround Kerrie’s case.

DR: That’s Craig Jordan, a friend of Kerrie’s. His story is a good example of how I am not always able to connect to both ends of a tip. And sometimes I make initial contact with someone, but then am not able to reconnect with them.

Here’s the woman Craig told me about, who shall remain unnamed.

WOMAN: Ahhhhh.... I'm in the middle of rolling meatballs to go to a memorial. [laughs] So my hands are all sticky. Would you be able to call me this evening? I'll be home around seven.

WOMAN: Okay.

DR: The woman with the meatballs allegedly saw a photo of Kerrie and broke down in front of my tipster, then implied she knew what had happened to Kerrie. She hasn’t answered any of my follow-up phone calls, texts or Facebook messages. But I’d still like to talk to her.

TB: On the left.

TB: Okay.

[ Sound: Car door open, wind chimes]

[Sound: Door knock, wind chimes, another knock, door opens]

DR: On another lead, I interviewed a man who I had been told had had Kerrie in his van that night with screams and goings on being heard in the background, but this was second or third hand information, and I have not yet been able to speak to the supposed direct witness.

DR: No?

DR: Okay. Why do you think someone would tip this about you?

DR: Again, the initial information I received about this suspect person was third hand. I’m hoping that presenting it here will bring someone forward who might know more, to help clarify this story.

JB: The only thing… if she knew who the people were, she trusted them. Now Bonyai come around here in his van and pick kids up to drive to school for quite some time before that.

DR: This is a fellow who I have heard many in Thompson talk about.

DR: The circumstantial ownership of a van led to local intrigue, and some real life consequences. Jim saw this fellow in a bar one night and told him he was under suspicion.

TB: You told Sumner that too.

TB: The cops came knocking...

TB: The cops came knocking…

TB: He threatened to kill the guy.

JB: They just said we’ve told you before, Mr. Brown. We can’t do our job here if you keep bullying people around. I just told you that because he had a van, a white van.

DR: What shape was the window?

DR: Okay. White van with a circular window.

TB: To the left. It's way down in the corner. It's in the far corner of the trailer park.

DR: Let's just be careful about whether he's there or not. I don't want to go ....

DR: Well, we'll see. Sometimes you drive by and they're just standing there.

DR: Let's not get into that right now.

DR: Trevor and I drive by on several different occasions. Sometimes there’s no one home. Other times, there are too many people… or the feeling not quite right.

DR: Yeah. We passed it there. I think it was that house with like 50 people around it.

DR: Yeah. It's not happening. It makes everybody more tense. I'll have to call him.

DR: I decide to try calling. No answer. I leave messages. No callbacks. Finally I get someone.

WOMAN: Hello?

WOMAN: He's working.

WOMAN: Next Wednesday.

WOMAN: Bye.

DR: But…

Hello. We are not available now…

DR: Hi there. This message is for Mr. Marlin Bonyai. It's David Ridgen calling from CBC Radio. If you can give me a call back…

DR: Yep.

DR: Marlin Bonyai actually said to you that it was his van?

DR: When did he say that to you? Under what circumstance?

DF: Yep.

DF: Not that piece, no.

DF: They never asked me on that.

DR: Okay.

DR: “That was my van.” I have no idea if Bonyai even spoke to Fulford, or ever said this phrase. But it’s important enough, that I will keep trying to get Bonyai to talk to me in the hope that he can clarify.

DR: I’ve looked further into the story that Jean Marc Villeneuve told me about another van being pulled over the week before Kerrie was murdered by RCMP officer Donnie Fisher.

DR: While Fisher hasn’t spoken to me yet, I’ve come across articles in the Thompson newspaper sent in by a listener, that detail what must be the same incident, and that will allow me describe more about how the incident unfolded. According to the court docket mentioned in the article, it happened over a month before Kerrie was murdered. On the early morning of September 8, 1986. The officer involved is not named, but I assume it could be Fisher. Twelve males in their late teens or early twenties in a van of unknown colour were pulled over by the officer in an area known as Davis Bay. The officer tried to arrest the driver Stephen Brown — no relation to Kerrie — on an impaired driving charge. The twelve males then reportedly began to threaten the officer to the extent that he drew his service revolver. Stephen Brown was hit in the face with a flashlight when he took a run at the officer. Other police arrived and the situation ended with a number of arrests. David Glen Eagle, Keith Deschambeault, Brian K McKenzie, Stephen Brown, and a Merle Frederick Spence. This seemed like a promising connection at first. But preliminary research suggests that this person is not the same Fred Spence — Federick Allen Spence — I spoke to in Nelson House with Luella.

[pause]

The names of the other seven males in the van who were not charged is up for speculation, but I have some idea of who they could be and will be tracking them down for a chat.

DR: Marnie Schafer, the civilian RCMP phone operator who took that suspicious call in the early morning hours of October 17th, 1986, has also given me a few names of people who may have been in that van. And of course, none of the males in the van may have had anything to do with Kerrie’s murder. And speaking of Marnie and the phone call, there may be another name for the RCMP officer the mysterious caller wanted to talk to in Norway House, another name worth looking into.

DR: Hi is Lillian there?

DR: Lillian Arsenault is originally from Norway House. She left around 1974, after marrying an RCMP member, but remained closely connected to her community.

LA: But he was in Norway House at that time. And he left there in the spring of ‘88.

LA: Yeah.

DR: Back to potential suspects… I’m also tracking Carlton Jackson, whose name I’ve heard a lot. From the very beginning. According to my information, Jackson was questioned by police around the time on the day of Kerrie’s memorial service, Wednesday Oct 22nd, 1986. That was four days after her body was discovered. And just before the arrest of Patrick Sumner.

JB: Yeah. I don’t even know if he was held overnight or spoke to two or three times or what. But he had a reputation for being rough with girls. He’d had that reputation.

DR: Just his background.

DR: Jackson’s criminal record shows charges of assault with weapon, sexual assault, and even kidnapping. But he went out of his way to plead his innocence, directly to the Brown family.

DR: This is Carlton?

DR: And he told you he had nothing to do with it?

DR: But your feeling about him is… nothing to do with your sister’s murder.

DR: I would have liked to speak with Jackson regardless, but it sounds like that might not be possible...

[pause]

TB: Yeah, Robert... his name... it came up lots over the years because he, he had, he was known to be violent. And uh... not right in the head. I don't know if I could say it any nicer but… We knew he had hanged himself in the Thompson Inn, years ago.

DR: Did Delaronde have an alibi?

DR: No.

TB: And I start talking about Robert Delaronde. And I have often wondered if he left a suicide note because there's no evidence, if he did, that it still exists. Unless someone has it that we don't know about.

TB: And all of a sudden, this woman spins around she was sitting... I could see her back, from where I was sitting. She turns around she goes, she's crying, she goes, could you please stop talking about my brother like that. It was Robert Delaronde's sister, younger sister. Just... surreal. And I... I said, I'm sorry. We're just trying to find out who murdered my sister. I wanted her to know who I was. And, um, Doug said, Sorry, we won't talk about it anymore. But I said, before we stop, I said, could I ask you please, just ask you one question? She kinda nods sure. And I said, did they ever take DNA from your brother? The police. And she said no.

TB: I even went as far as to contacting his mother. About two years ago, and explained to her who I was, and what I wanted. And I asked her if I could… but she wanted, really, nothing to do... she hung up on me once I started describing to her what they did to her. Does she know something? And now that Robert's gone, what's the point? You know, saying something that she knows, now that he's gone. Does it matter? I don't know.

TB: it was purely happenstance. As you know, I volunteer with the humane society, walking dogs. And he's the, he's the... what do they call it? The guy that goes and collects, you know, animals and stuff... animal control kind of thing.

TB: For the humane society. But I was there one day to pick up a dog, and take him—Axel, to take Axel for a walk, and there he was. Coincidentally, I heard somebody mention his name and then... I said you're Craig Delaronde, you're Robert's younger brother. And he goes yeah. And I said, I'm Trevor Brown.

TB: Yes.

CRAIG DELARONDE: And I just start telling him like I don't know if this information is going to help you I said like or bring any kind of closure. But I said I was only 12 years old when your sister passed.

DR: About the case or about Kerrie Brown or anything like that?

DR: The Sumconey Apartments were located on the corner of Westwood and Thompson Drive — not far from Trout Avenue where Kerrie was last seen, about a three minute drive away.

CD: He never was a person to ask for help he needs to go to a Selkirk right now to be put into a mental hospital there. He would do something extravagant like break a window and wait for the cops to pick him up and whatever... like...he...I guess he was he was he I guess he was tired of living like that life, I guess. Trevor did ask me did he leave a note or anything, which he didn't leave... no note. He just did it.

CD: Oh for sure they have.

CD: Oh yeah. I absolutely can understand.

CD: With what I've seen with my brother's demeanor. I couldn't see it like I just, I just never... he was big on making sure women never got hit. That's the way my parents raised him like raised us. And he never, not that I know of, ever hit any of his girlfriends or anything that .He's never been in jail for that kind of stuff. It's always been for fighting in the bars or fighting on the streets or whatever.

[Sound: A phone connecting]

DR: Hi Heather, it's Dave Ridgen calling.

DR: So are you aware of the podcast I'm doing on Kerrie Brown?

DR: OK. OK. So have you listened. [laugh]

DR: OK… I guess I'm really interested in if Robert Delaronde ever mentioned Kerrie's case or Kerrie at all to you.

DR: So Robert would, you say, go to the RCMP and tell them this information as well?

DR: OK. And when he made the statements do you know the name of the person he was mentioning?

DR: Carlton Jackson. The same man who police had brought in for questioning. The same who visited the Brown household, swearing his innocence. And who I’m told is now likely brain damaged due to a beating he received on the street.

HEATHER MCIVER: No. Well, um... Kerrie went missing in October and I didn't technically start dating Robert till December. We were talking about it. He had said that he'd had a party that night and there was a lot of people there. There were so many people there he couldn't really keep track who's who was coming in and out. But he said by the time he noticed that Carlton and another guy had left, had been gone for a long time. They were back.

HM: You know what I can’t remember…

HM: Right, So that kind of stuck out in his mind. And I guess Carlton had said, Hey if anybody asks I was here all night and he said sure. He just assumed maybe Carlton had been messing around on his girlfriend or whatever. He never thought it was something that serious until there was talk that this girl was missing and then she was murdered. Then he was upset that maybe Carlton had something to do with it.

HM: I don't know. He never did tell me that.

DR: So did you ever have any inkling that Robert Delaronde might have been involved in any way or how do you how do you see?

HM: Yes.

DR: Do you remember if he had ever had his DNA taken by police?

HM: No. No I have a child. That's it.

HM: No, I did not.

CHERYL DELARONDE: Hello?

CD: Hi, how are you?

DR: Craig was saying that you might have some awareness of where what your brother Robert was, where he was that night because he had had a party or something Craig said Robert had had a party?

CD: Yes, he’d always say that. But like you know but like proof I don't have no proof. All I have is what he would say. He did say something like in passing about him having a party, and something about Carlton asking him to be an alibi for him or something like this. But because his thoughts were racing like that all the time, I wasn't sure whether he was being truthful or whether this is you know his truth or what it was. Like I really... I couldn't say.

DR: Do you remember if the police ever actually successfully took DNA from your brother or your parents or anyone else in your family?

CD: No, definitely not. Like unless they did it on the side, to my brother, they could have. Who knows?

CD: Oh yeah.

DR: And you're saying that you know for a fact that police never took anybody else in your family's DNA, nor did they take Robert's.

DR: Do you know any way I could reach Carlton Jackson? I know that he was in a— apparently he's in... He's very sick or has been in a fight and in a vegetative state, people are saying. But does he have any relatives that you know of? Or does he speak to anybody that you know of?

DR: He recognized you and spoke to you?

DR: You didn't notice anything abnormal about him?

DR: So I'm just wondering if you were able to tell me how I can in touch.

DR: Oh ok. Do you do you was Carlton, is Carlton able to speak properly like, I heard he was in a fight or something is he is he ok or...?

DR: Was he able to talk normally to you and speak normally?

DR: OK.

[pause]

CD: Like I really feel for Trevor and like you know because I remember when I first moved back to Thompson like you know I remember him talking to somebody face-to-face. And I was in a restaurant at the same restaurant, and I just kept hearing my brother's name being thrown around and stuff, and I was just like you know I felt really I had to defend my brother he's dead. He can't speak for himself. So I turned around and I looked at the two men and I just said, Can you please stop talking about my brother. Just stop it and stuff, hey? And then I just turned around and I could feel my tears coming down and stuff. And then all of a sudden Trevor said, Kerrie was my sister… and I just felt my heart just drop right to my stomach, and I just felt like this sadness sweep over me. And I'm getting emotional now. [crying] And I just thought like you know I don't even know who he was. And you know he’s just so broken. And I can just feel his pain. And I just like you know I realized like you know when he said that I just said, I'm sorry, I just whispered, I just felt weak. And I turned around and I couldn't eat my breakfast. I can't imagine his pain but... you know ...I pray for him. And I hope that they do find the person who did this because they have to they have to pay for what they've done.

ATW: You have been listening to a Season 5 Bonus: I was here all night. If you wish to submit an anonymous tip about Kerrie Brown’s murder, visit: www.cbc.ca/sks, or email the show at: sks@cbc.ca. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written and produced by David Ridgen. The series is mixed by Cesil Fernandes with help from Mitch Stuart.And produced by Chris Oke, Steph Kampf, Amil Delic, Eunice Kim, Mickal Aranha, and executive producer Arif Noorani. Original music by David Federman. Our theme song is “Thompson Girl” by The Tragically Hip.

DR: Anyhow, so... you think the first two episodes were representative of what you thought you would hear?

TB: Yeah, my voice sounds funny. I sound funny on recording. That's fine though. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. I've got lots of energy. I liked your comment. He seems to speak as quickly as he thinks. [LAUGHTER] And I also loved your quote, He sort of looks like a country music star a couple of albums past his prime, or something. [LAUGHTER] Did I really come off as that, Dave?

TB: Not a head banger? Not a washed up rock star? Oh God. [LAUGHTER]

TRANSCRIPT: Someone Knows Something - Season 5, EP 11

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