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TRANSCRIPT: SOMEONE KNOWS SOMETHING S06E05

Sound Clip: [Steven Symes on phone] Hey, David, this is Steve Symes at the medical examiner’s office in Pearl, Mississippi. We have looked at some samples that have been brought in on that case, and so far, found nothing human.

Sound Clip: [Steven Symes by phone] I am a bone person, a bone specialist, and I’ve seen nothing yet that looks like bone. So...

Sound Clip: [Steven Symes] Thank you.

[electronic beep]

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley on phone] Truett’s message was they wanna get ‘em to another expert.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] Exactly.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] But you have an eye witness.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] Yeah.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] But you know what? Even if it’s all of the above, I...I don’t think Dee would have it. I don’t. I don’t - I have zero confidence in him.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] And they can do all the research that they want. So, anyway, back to the excavation, this is exactly why I had that argument or whatever, because Dee has told me at least ten times that all we need is to find one piece of bone, and there is no money or no whatever. We’ll dig up the whole hillside.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] Now, they’re not going to - they have to excavate. How can you stop? ‘Cause, I mean, you - I don’t get it. I’m...I’m just, like, beyond myself.

David Ridgen: You’re listening to Someone Knows Something from CBC Podcasts. This is Season 6, Episode 5, The Test. This is the last regular episode in the season.

David Ridgen: Debra’s decided to go after Shane with a civil suit for the wrongful death of Donnie. I travel down to Mississippi one more time to meet with her in McComb, and we’re driving together to her civil lawyer’s office.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] Yes. Hit him where it hurts, the wallet.

Sound Clip: [Truett Simmons] Generally speaking, we always take the position we’d rather not see a civil trial until the criminal part has been completed.

Sound Clip: [Truett Simmons] That’s right. We can’t make use of the civil trial information, but what happens is the civil trial gets the case out in public ahead of the criminal.

Sound Clip: [Truett Simmons] Frankly, I was hoping it may help shake something out of the trees, so to speak, and out of the bushes. And it’s - and it may. We don’t know.

David Ridgen: Apparently, Shane owns the house, and Freddie is helping to restore it. I’ll come back here for a closer look later.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] This is amazing.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] I love it.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] Nice to meet you.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] Debra Skelley.

Sound Clip: [Ronnie Whittington] David?

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] So, Debra’s asked me to come and work with her, and see what you can do with this case. I hope you don’t mind me being here.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] I am. Yeah.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] OK.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] Can I ask for, like, a - some kind of a statement after?

David Ridgen: Whittington won’t allow me to stay, despite Debra’s permission and my assurance that I only really want to record the beginning of their meeting.

David Ridgen: He’s correct, in that, once I attend and record any conversation they might have, it no longer becomes privileged and is subject to disclosure to a defense lawyer.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] Yeah.

David Ridgen: I respect his wishes and leave the office to await Debra in her car. Whittington retained a New Orleans-based lawyer named Bill Goodwin to help him with the civil suit. I spoke to Goodwin at Nobles’ farm as he was catching up on the case history with Debra.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] There’s a lot of circumstantial stuff that, when you fuse it with facts - I mean, that’s your - that’s your task, right? You’d have to...

Sound Clip: [Bill Goodwin] Oh, I think we would honor that, but that would be, truthfully, Mr. Whittington’s call. You know? But my suspicion is that we would honour that. In reference to this case, the fact that, with the political environment here in Mississippi right now, the fact that this case involves homosexuality, you know - I’m being very adamant with the district attorney. That does not need to be playing into his decision about prosecution or not. You know? I just wanna make sure that that’s not an issue. And I don’t believe that it is, but you never know. You know?

David Ridgen: We’ll come back to the civil suit as it progresses.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] Big time. [laughs]

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] [laughing] Well, I left the lawyer’s office one day and dropped it, and everything went everywhere on the street. And...

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] So, I haven’t put it - put everything back yet, ‘cause I pretty much have everything on my phone, as well - files.

David Ridgen: People that are hard to reach, and even Truett can’t find them. I’ve been looking for a few of these names that I need to come forward. Jamie Lynn Reichert and Paul Andrew Lapp were two roommates of Donnie’s who lived with him around the time he disappeared. They weren’t extensively interviewed by police at the time and may have information. And even others who were interviewed need more attention. Three in particular, named Brady Swindell, Jason Hogan, and a Canadian named Barry Geair, are obvious choices, according to the file.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley on phone] That’s correct.

David Ridgen: Brady Swindell might be a good possible source of information. Donnie knew Brady, apparently, from another trip he had taken with Shane, this time, to Key West, Florida, sometime earlier in the Spring of 1995. According to the police file, Donnie apparently called Brady when he was in Mississippi in May. Brady could help to place Donnie in Mississippi, and he may remember some other useful details. I routed a production trip past his home in St. Louis only to discover that Swindell had just died.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] A conversation with Brady.

Sound Clip: [Ron Snyder] Maryland State Police, office of media communication.

David Ridgen: Ron Snyder at Maryland Police Media Relations later tells me flatly that they cannot help us. Brady’s messages with Debra throw aspects of the police file into a different light and make me wonder how accurate it is. Another name that comes up in the file is a man named Jason Hogan.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] Yep.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] Hello, Jason. Nice to see you. Thanks for seeing me.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] My son, Owen, is in the car, so...

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] But I need to record...

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] OK. I mean, I could show you right here, if you want.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] So, I’ve redacted exactly what you said, but you can see that your name’s in it. You can see that it’s your address, and this is Page One, and my redactions are the black. And this is Maryland Department of State Police, and this is the file number for Donnie Izzett. And you are here. That’s your date of birth, right?

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] And that’s your full name, Jason Eric Hogan, right? And then, this is where you lived, right?

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] Then, there’s other pages that say your name again. “We got this from him. We got this from him.” And then...

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] There’s something else that I -

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] I suspect that they’ve met you, and it was August, and it would have been out in San Diego, I think. August of ‘95, I think.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] Yeah?

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] Donald, yeah. And then, it says at the bottom - this is the thing I did not redact - “It should be noted that Swindell and Hogan are going to attempt to retrieve phone numbers from previous phone bills.” Do you remember anything about that, saying that you would go through phone records?

David Ridgen: I’ve had enough, and Hogan’s had enough.

Sound Clip: [Jason Hogan] I have absolutely no recollection of speaking with a police officer in San Diego and do not know anybody by this name.

Sound Clip: [Jason Hogan] I have never met a Donnie Izzett, if he said his name was Donnie, and have researched online, and there is no name that is in common.

Sound Clip: [Jason Hogan] And, OK. So, that’s all I really want to say on a microphone about this.

David Ridgen: And off mic, he doesn’t add anything. Police say they interviewed this particular Jason about Donnie Izzett, but this Jason Hogan has no recollection of it. I have no explanation, and I don’t detect deliberate deception on Hogan’s part. Could police have accidentally inserted the wrong Jason Hogan’s address?

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] Wow.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] No. It’s a heck of a lot closer than Mississippi.

David Ridgen: The Florida connection with Donnie continues with a fellow named Barry Geair, someone Donnie allegedly took another trip with, this time to Toronto, also in the Spring of 1995. Back in ‘95, Debra found out about Geair from police after Donnie disappeared, and reached out to him. They briefly stayed in touch, and Geair provided some information, but Debra has always thought he might know more. And he supposedly knew Shane.

David Ridgen: After finding out where he is in Florida, I go there and leave several ever-more-detailed messages at a number associated with Barry Geair.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] Hi, this message is for Barry. Barry, it’s David Ridgen calling again...

Sound Clip: [Male Speaker on phone] Yeah, hi. Who has been calling this phone number and saying they’re looking for somebody?

Sound Clip: [Male Speaker on phone] No. Barry - there’s no Barry at this number.

Sound Clip: [Male Speaker on phone] No.

Sound Clip: [Male Speaker on phone] Probably a couple of years.

Sound Clip: [Male Speaker on phone] No.

Sound Clip: [Male Speaker on phone] Thank you.

[phone clicks]

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] Hello?

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] This is David.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] What do I do? Who is this speaking?

Sound Clip: [Barry Geair] I just got a message that you were looking for somebody.

Sound Clip: [Barry Geair] OK, well, what is this regarding?

David Ridgen: It was Barry’s contact number. The guy who called before was also likely Barry himself.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] In the file, there’s some information that you had spent some time with Donnie before the disappearance. Like, you spent some time with him...

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] ..in April, in 1995.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] Oh, OK. OK. So, you met Donnie in Florida?

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] OK. So, back in March of ‘95, you met Donnie in Key West.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] OK. And did you know anything about his relationship with Shane?

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] OK.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] OK, OK. And then, did you ever take Donnie to Toronto with you?

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] OK. And did Shane go with you at that-that time as well?

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] OK.

Sound Clip: [Barry Geair] I know he was a real fitness fanatic. Totally into the gym, and working out. I did recall that he did say he had a bad temper.

Sound Clip: [Barry Geair] The only time I remembered hearing from him was once, and he was in Santa Barbara, or it seems California somewhere.

Sound Clip: [Barry Geair] No, nope, nope.

Sound Clip: [Barry Geair] I found out from his mother. His mother actually contacted me. She was convinced that something happened terrible.

Sound Clip: [Barry Geair] Three weeks.

Sound Clip: [Barry Geair] I mean, honestly, the only thing I knew was that he was having issues with his - you know, with his partner. And that, I knew that. He made that clear. I think he really relied on him for everything. I think he really relied on him for money. He was young. He...he didn’t have his shit together, I guess. A nice, nice guy, but he just - you know, he just was in his own - I mean, what I can remember. It’s so long ago.

David Ridgen: From Barry, the recurring theme of Donnie suggesting Shane was abusive in some way, and now a suggestion that Donnie was reliant on Shane.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley on phone] No, uh-uh, never met him, never.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] You saw Donnie in April, right? After Toronto, you saw Donnie, right?

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] It seems like anybody that we could have used as - you know, because the case is so old, they have died, and it just - we’re running out of options.

Sound Clip: [Kyle Barnes] That was the time when I was coming through recovery and thinking about, like, OK, what am I hiding right now? And that’s where I told Craig, you know, my ex. I said, “This has happened,” and he said, “Well, maybe it didn’t happen.”

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] When did you tell Craig?

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] And did he do anything or say anything to you to try to get you to...

Sound Clip: [Craig Anderson on phone] Hello?

Sound Clip: [Craig Anderson on phone] Yes?

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] I work on this podcast where I’m looking at the disappearance of Donnie Izzett, and I’m working with Debra, Donnie’s mother. And I’m interested to interview you about your experience in dealing with your former partner, Kyle, and what you remember from what Kyle might have told you around the period that Donnie disappeared.

David Ridgen: Craig remembers Kyle telling him that Shane shot someone, but Craig says Kyle was using ketamine at the time and often in a drug-induced daze. So, it was easy for him to ignore the details he was hearing about what happened in Mississippi. In later conversations Craig had with Truett Simmons, he confirms again that Kyle told him details about his trip to Mississippi, identical details we heard him tell us 20 years later.

David Ridgen: Debra and I are back in Mississippi, and I’m asking her again about Shane Guenther’s brother, Freddie.

David Ridgen: Freddie used to live near New Orleans, and Shane says in his statement that he stayed with him. If he didn’t, it might cast some doubt on this crucial part of his story. I pull up near the dilapidated mansion, and it doesn’t take long for Freddie to emerge with his beige, retriever-type dog. Freddie’s got short-cropped, silver hair with a taupe T-shirt, gray pants, and is about 5’9”.

Sound Clip: [Freddie Guenther] I’m good.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] And your brother, Shane, was named in a civil suit recently as being involved in that case. And he’s used you in an alibi that he gave to police.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] Yes. This is for a podcast that I work on.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] Has Shane spoken to you about it at all?

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] Did Shane ever talk to you about this case? Did he ever talk to you about Donnie Izzett?

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] Yeah.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] Shane said that he stayed with you at the house where you used to live near New Orleans around the 24th or 25th, 1995. Do you remember him staying with you that night?

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] And what did you tell them?

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] Mm-hm, mm-hm.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] Let me ask you this then.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] Do you think your brother had anything to do with Donnie Izzett’s death?

Sound Clip: [Freddie Guenther] I would rather just stay in neutral territory with that. Lemme just tell you this. My mother was interviewed. My grandmother, 25 years ago. Now, my sister. I didn’t know a thing about it. Nobody ever told me a thing about this until two years ago, when I got a card. Private investigator wanted to talk to me when I moved in here.

Sound Clip: [Freddie Guenther] So...

Sound Clip: [Freddie Guenther] No. They never talked to me. And I told them, “Zero plus zero is zero.” That’s the extent of what I knew about the whole situation.

Sound Clip: [Freddie Guenther] I don’t know where I was. I don’t know.

Sound Clip: [Freddie Guenther] I think I was in - no. I never met - never met him, never saw him.

Sound Clip: [Freddie Guenther] Well, at one time, with my sister’s situation, but that - that’s - you know, I don’t wanna get into something that - you know, I’d rather just-just see what happens and let Izzy’s mother - you know, with what just came out in the paper, I was in a state of shock. So...

Sound Clip: [Freddie Guenther] ..what more do you say?

Sound Clip: [Freddie Guenther] Hope they come down to the bottom of this.

Sound Clip: [Freddie Guenther] I mean, I tired of just - you know, I’m going through an issue with it, the estate of my dad that passed away, and, you know, you just like to see a finalization of things, because sometimes, things take a whole lot longer than, you know. So, I’m just - I’m dealing with a lot right now.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] Right.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] This house is kinda old, nice place. Shane owns this house, right?

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] It’s a big job.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] Yeah.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] Do you stay in touch with Shane? Are you in touch with him?

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] Yep.

David Ridgen: Freddie’s hand is on the front doorknob now. I don’t think I can keep him talking much longer.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] OK. Thanks.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] Thank you very much.

David Ridgen: I asked Truett what Freddie said to him. Did Shane stay with Freddie on the night he said he did? But Truett is keeping that card close, and won’t tell me.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] OK.

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] That’s fine.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley on phone] Just on the civil end, of course.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley on phone] Like, if I do a settlement, then there would be a gag order, it cannot be discussed.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley on phone] Just that the lawsuit is closed, can’t be reopened, and there’s a gag order.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley on phone] But, I mean, I’ve went over and over it, and sent it...I’ve sent it in text messages, everything, that - and emails - that I will not - no way, shape, or form - give up anything criminally. I don’t care how much money is involved. Nor give up, you know, any type of, you know, rights to tell my story, tell Donnie’s story, whatever it is I feel like doing at some point in - after the fact.

David Ridgen: After a process of about ten months, Debra’s wrongful death suit against Shane Guenther regarding Donnie’s disappearance ended with a settlement. Now, a settlement is not an admission of anything. People settle out of court for many reasons, but without having to give a statement, Shane settled with Debra, paying her an undisclosed monetary sum. Her lawyers, McComb-based Ronnie Whittington and New Orleans-based Bill Goodwin, took 40% of this sum plus expenses.

David Ridgen: But there may be another way to check. During the dig, I took soil samples from the area of the fire pit and where the potential bone fragments were found. I then sent these samples to two different cadaver dog handlers - Kim Cooper, a Canadian cadaver dog expert based in the Ottawa area, and Mary Cablk, who leads a team in Reno, Nevada. Those results are in, and they may help DA Bates with his decision.

David Ridgen: Listeners will remember Ottawa-based cadaver dog specialist Kim Cooper from Season 1. There, her team helped invaluably in the case of missing Adrien McNaughton, and since then, her teams and handlers have helped solve other cases by finding human remains. Kim recently ran four trained cadaver dogs past the soil samples that were taken from the Nobles’ property, resulting in full indications on one jar in particular and heightened interest in the others.

David Ridgen: Two of the dogs, Recce and Knox, are certified by police to recognize and indicate on human remains, barking and making specific actions in relation to their handler. Grief, one of Kim’s more experienced dogs, did not go through police certification this year due to injury, and the most experienced dog, Breeze, did not go to certification because of her age, but both can still do the job. Here’s Breeze indicating on the sample from Nobles’ property,

Sound Clip: [Kim Cooper on phone] And she came in, hit the first jar, and instantly vocalized, whining and crying.

David Ridgen: The preponderance of the dogs interest, Kim says, was on the jar of soil taken from the fire pit, or feature, where the fragments were discovered by Lynn Funkhouser’s team.

David Ridgen: This pit is close to the area Owen was pointing to when he was helping with the old photo and the trees.

Sound Clip: [Kim Cooper on phone] I went back in, and I shuffled the jars.

Sound Clip: [Kim Cooper on phone] So, at that point, I was the only one who knew where the jar that had gotten the most attention - I was the only one who knew where it was.

Sound Clip: [Kim Cooper on phone] Nobody else knew.

Sound Clip: [Kim Cooper on phone] And on this run, three or four dogs indicated on-on one particular jar. It was the jar that the majority interest on the first run...

Sound Clip: [Kim Cooper on phone] Yeah, so when I get home, of course, my curiosity was just eating at me at this point. And I’m driving home, going, “I got another cadaver dog at home.” So, this time, I set it out on my front lawn, and...and she popped Grief out. Grief has not worked in two years. He - he’s had medical issues, and he’s no longer physically able to do the work. But I popped him out, and he ran out to the jars, and he promptly, very promptly, indicated on the same jar. This is the one that we had all the interest in.

Sound Clip: [Mary Cablk on phone] So, what I can tell you, very interesting, is all the dogs agreed on TU Feature One and definitely Primary Burn.

Sound Clip: [Mary Cablk] Definitely TU Feature Two, definitely...

Sound Clip: [David Ridgen] So, would you say, then, that there’s likely human remains in the area there?

David Ridgen: Before I used the sampler, I cleaned it thoroughly with 99% alcohol, so anything in the jars was only from Dr Nobles’s property. I did not clean it between the various sample areas, so there is a chance that soil from one fire pit feature could have transferred from one jar to another, but the overwhelming response points toward the same place where the fragments were found.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley on phone] Oh my gosh.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley on phone] Whoa.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley on phone] Yeah. I’m just trying to catch my breath.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] I can’t - what I mean by - the - it’s never gonna be closure in that sense. I mean, what I mean, that is a piece of Donnie to take home.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] I wish I could remember how Dr Nobles’ wife said it to me about this property and that the unfortunate thing that happened to my son on this property, but what a peaceful and beautiful place to be.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] So, tha, it gave me some comfort, and I feel, when I’m here, I feel at peace. I wanna be alone. I mean, it’s-it’s emotional, but yet, it’s...It’s the only place I have. You know what I mean?

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] It’s not like I could take him home and have a place. It’s here.

Sound Clip: [Debra Skelley] [sighs]

David Ridgen: You’ve been listening to Episode 5, The Test. This is the last regular episode for Season 6, Donald Izzett. Visit cbc.ca/sks to learn more about the Donnie Izzitt case or to listen to past seasons of the show. To see images from the investigation, find us on Facebook at Someone Knows Something or on Instagram at CBC Podcasts. If you wish to submit an anonymous tip about the Izzett case, email sks@cbc.ca, and if you’re looking for another show to listen to, subscribe to Uncover, another award-winning investigative series from CBC Podcasts. Each season explores a different true crime and justice story.

[END OF TRANSCRIPT]

Transcript: Someone Knows Something Season 6 Episode 5

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