'By the Book' hosts on how self-help books provide space for women

Have you ever had doubts about taking advice from a self-help book? Well it's likely that Jolenta Greenberg and Kristen Meinzer have already put that book to the test, so you don't have to.

By The Book is a podcast that's self-described as "half reality show, half self-help podcast, and one wild social experiment." Each episode, Jolenta and Kristen choose a self-help book and live by its every rule for two weeks so they can figure out which rules are worth implementing into your everyday life. Jolenta and Kristen spoke to hosts Lindsay Michael and Matt Galloway about the inspiration behind their podcast, the self-help book industry, and how self-help can act as a space for women to share and connect through their life experiences.

Jolenta, you pitched this idea to Kristen. Where did the idea for By the Book come from?

Jolenta: Kristen and I met when we were working at a public radio news show. I was in charge of getting all of our mail, and when you work in news and radio, you get sent lots of unsolicited books by publishers.

So many!

Jolenta: And of course, we got tons and tons of self-help books that no one wanted to cover, because self-help books aren't really hard news. So I hoarded all those books and was like, "I am gonna get my life in order and live by all of these books someday." And then I was like, "Also, I have a tendency to get very carried away with this kind of stuff... So, if I do live by these books, I should bring a friend with me who is, you know, a responsible adult that doesn't get carried away and won't end up accidentally joining a cult." And that is my friend Kristen, who is also my co-worker, and she's just... she's just a good adult.

Did she immediately bite on this idea to be the "responsible adult" on your mission of bettering yourself?

Kristen: No, but flash forward a few years... now we are in season five of the show.

Kristen, once you've picked a book that you're going to live by for two weeks, how do you and Jolenta prepare?

Kristen: We do the most close, academic reading of self-help books you can imagine. And it does not matter how preposterous the book is. Whether it's Past Lives, Future Healing or How to Write an E-book in Less Than 7-14 Days That Will Make You Money Forever, we take notes and then we distil everything down. We try to make it under 10 rules if the rules are not very clearly written out, which is often, frankly. Most books are not very clear about what their steps are. But we try to make the steps very clear. And then we live by those rules without talking to each other for the whole two weeks we're living by the book. We may have a little snarky email back and forth here or there, but we try not to play our cards to let the other know how the books are enhancing or destroying our lives until we get into the studio.

Do you often find you have the same experiences?

Jolenta: I'd say we rarely have the same experiences. I'll be like, "There's no way she could have not seen it this way." And then she'll come in and drop a billion bombs on me and be like, "This is why this was dumb. This is why that was dumb." It's like we both read different books, even though we agreed on the same rules.

Kristen: Yes. And it is frequently obvious who is going to like which book. I frequently like books that are about being kind to people, communicating better, and being responsible, which are not especially sexy-sounding. It can be quite hilarious because [these books often cause] Jolenta to have some epiphanies and moments of rage.

There's such a breadth of self-help books, and self-help more generally seems to be having a moment right now. Why do you think people are so into this genre?

Jolenta: I think a lot of it comes from the fact that self-help books, which are predominantly marketed toward women, give women a space to talk about wellness, their life experiences, and what issues they struggle with, in a way that society doesn't facilitate very often. You know, a lot of how we structure our lives is based around men and how we think their lives work. So self-help can be a space where women can have our own sort of 'whisper network' of advice books.

Do you find that you have more female listeners as a result? 

Kristen: We do have more female listeners than male listeners. And I think that one thing that women may gravitate toward in our show, whether they like self-help books or not, is its message of intersectional feminism. That's attractive to a lot of women, to hear gender, race, class all folded into one place. We point out that a lot of these authors are men saying, "Hey if I can do it, you can too." Really? Maybe you are an extremely privileged, rich dude who is telling a woman who is living in poverty or as a single mom that she, too, can start her own supplement business in the next six months. And maybe that's not actually true. And so Jolenta and I call a lot of authors on that crap, and frankly, I think a lot of our listeners find that attractive because women frequently aren't told, "Hey these authors are full of crap!" And sometimes we need to point it out.

It's been pointed out that the whole point of this industry is to reach some level of perfection or promised land. In creating this podcast, Jolenta, what have you learned about what you actually need to be a happier person? I

Jolenta: The more we live by books, the more I feel like I learn what I hate, which helps me to define what I love and what is important to me. I have learned that no amount of getting up early makes me more productive or happier. And also, that no amount of prescriptions of how to live your life will make you feel whole. That's work you've got to do on your own.

This interview has been edited for clarity. You can listen to Jolenta and Kristen's full interview on this week's episode of Podcast Playlist.

Want to hear By The Book for yourself? Check it out here or on your favourite podcast app.