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Front Burner Transcript for November 14, 2024

Host: Jayme Poisson

JAYME POISSON: Hi, I'm Jayme Poisson.

[Music: Theme]

JP: In the mid-1980s, the Canadian government tasked a commission to investigate whether a considerable number of Nazi war criminals settled in Canada after the Second World War. The Commission of Inquiry on War Criminals, headed by retired Quebec judge Jules Deschênes, looked into this, but for decades, many of the Commission's findings never saw the light of day. That includes 900 names of alleged Nazi war criminals who lived in Canada, contained in RCMP files and other documents. Jewish groups and Holocaust historians around the world have been calling for its release. But last week, the Canadian government shut down an access to information request for it, saying that it could be harmful to Canadian interests and international relations. Jaime Kirzner-Roberts is the policy and advocacy director for the Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center. They've been fighting to get these names released for decades.

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JAIME KIRZNER-ROBERTS: Our last hope is at least for the truth to come out. What Canada did in the years following the war is shameful. For us to let in our enemy, our enemy who our brave soldiers fought and too often died to defeat them and their ideology, for us to then turn around and allow them to enter our country with a life of impunity, never having to answer for their crimes, and by actively hiding the truth about these individuals and their crimes, you know, the government has shown itself, unfortunately, complicit.

JP: Jaime says she's heard from a number of Holocaust survivors who suspected that the criminals who killed their families lived near them, including Faigie Libman.

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JAIME KIRZNER-ROBERTS: When she was a little girl, her family were kidnapped by the Nazis and taken against their will to a concentration camp, where this little girl watched as one man stood on top of a hill and selected members of her family who were brought to the hill and shot. Over this two-day period in which Faigie Libman was personally there to witness, 10,000 Jews were ordered shot into a ditch. Fast forward many years after the war, Faigie lost most of her family in the Holocaust. She came, immigrated to Canada, lived in Toronto.

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FAIGIE LIBMAN: I was at home and I opened the paper. And on the front of the page, I couldn't get up to go to school that day when I found out that he was living as my neighbour. And he lived three streets away.

JAIME KIRZNER-ROBERTS: This man that she had saw on the hill, ordering Jews, including her grandfather and aunt, to be shot into a ditch, living his best life in the Bathurst Manor area of Toronto. This man's name was Helmut Rauca. He was a key instigator and perpetrator and implementer of the genocide of Lithuanian Jews. He was able to come to Canada using his own name and own identity. There was no screen...

JP: Helmet Rauca's name is out there, but many more are still being kept secret. Longtime defence reporter for the Ottawa Citizen, David Pugliese, is here with me today. We're going to talk about this list of alleged Nazi war criminals that settled in Canada after World War II. He's been covering this story for a long time. We'll talk to him about what we do know about those on the list, and why it remains such a challenge to get this history out in the open.

[Music: Theme]

JP: David, hi. Thank you so much for coming back on the show.

DAVID PUGLIESE: Great to be here. Thank you.

JP: So we don't have the names of the people on this list, obviously, of the 900 alleged Nazi war criminals who settled in Canada after the war, but what do we know broadly about them and where they might be from?

DAVID PUGLIESE: So what we do know is the document is called "Master List of alleged war criminals resident in Canada." And it states that there's 774 names on that. It also states that there's a list of sources with 38 names. And then there's an additional list of German scientists and technicians, 71 of them, who were believed to have come to Canada or were brought to Canada after the war to work for the Canadian military and such. But pretty much that's all we know. There's the suggestion that many of these individuals are from Eastern European nations -- Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania -- as those countries had, had a strong collaboration with the Nazis.

JP: Is it fair for me to say that at least some of these names can be found in declassified government records in other countries, right, like in the U.S., for example?

DAVID PUGLIESE: Yes. Certainly the U.S. government has declassified, I think, most of their material. You can go online and read CIA documents about some of the Nazi collaborators and Nazi officers that the U.S. brought in. Canadian government stands out as one of the few that doesn't, that won't put this into the public domain.

JP: Okay. And I want to get into that more with you in a bit. [DAVID: Mm-hmm.] But first, David, how is it that so many alleged Nazi war criminals came to live in Canada in the first place?

DAVID PUGLIESE: Well, after the war, you know, the rise of the Soviet Union, you had the Cold War. And Canada was bringing in lots of people. There was 2,000 members of a Ukrainian Waffen-SS unit that were believed to have come to Canada. And as Jewish groups point out, in the midst of the Cold War, these individuals were welcomed with open arms because you had a shift. The Soviet Union was our ally during the war, but after the war when the Cold War kicks in, then they become our enemy. And these individuals who helped serve the Nazis were seen as desirable by the Canadian government.

JP: Right. Because we were gearing up for another war.

DAVID PUGLIESE: Yeah, and--

JP: Essentially a different kind of fight.

DAVID PUGLIESE: Sure. And these people were, you know, anti-communist. So that's, that was the focus at the time.

JP: I was watching this 60 Minutes report -- I think it was from the '90s -- investigating the presence of alleged Nazi war criminals in Canada. And one historian said:

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HISTORY PROFESSOR: We know that one of the ways of getting into the country of Canada during this period was by showing the SS tattoo. This proved that you were an anti-communist.

INTERVIEWER: And what was the chore of the SS?

HISTORY PROFESSOR: The SS was obviously charged with the responsibility of murdering Jews. So it was no question that these were war criminals.

DAVID PUGLIESE: Yes, I've seen that. I think Mike Wallace was doing the interview and it probably is a little extreme. I mean, you know, Waffen-SS would have a tattoo under their left arm. But I don't think, um, certainly being a member of the Waffen-SS or different organizations that helped the Nazis during the war, it certainly wasn't an impediment in getting to Canada.

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CANADIAN JEWISH CONGRESS DIRECTOR: The fact is, Mr. Wallace, the Canadian government never really appeared to give a damn about prosecuting Nazi war criminals, going after them, finding them. They were not interested in it. They had no compunction to just say, Forget it, we're just-- this is not something that we want to get involved [in].

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JP: You mentioned that there were some 2,000 members, I think you said, of the Ukrainian Division [DAVID: Mm-hmm.] of the Waffen-SS. And just, tell me more about why so many of those folks came here.

DAVID PUGLIESE: So there was a push by certain individuals in Canada to bring these-- certain individuals in the Ukrainian community in Canada to bring these individuals to our country. And they're members of the 14th Waffen-SS Division -- Galicia, Galician. And yeah, they came to Canada. There was barely any background checks. And, you know, there have been documents now... You know, our historians have found documents in the U.K. government archives, where the British government wanted to send some of these less desirable individuals to Canada and get rid of them. And you had a British official say, you know, what little we know of their war record is bad. The other problem is when the RCMP went to look for some of the immigration records -- and the Deschênes report also noted this -- is that most of the immigration records were destroyed by the Canadian government in 1982-83. And that coincided with this, you know, surge in advocacy for legal action on the issue of Nazi war criminals. So that hindered the RCMP from really doing a deep dive into the backgrounds of these people.

JP: And this Division, people might remember it, right? Because last year it caused quite a stir, quite an international embarrassment when a veteran of this unit, Yaroslav Hunka, was given two standing ovations in the House of Commons, right?

DAVID PUGLIESE: Yeah. So, you're right, it was an international embarrassment. Countries around the world, commentators around the world couldn't believe what happened.

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FMR. HOUSE SPEAKER ANTHONY ROTA: We have here in the chamber today, Ukrainian Canadians, Ukrainian-Canadian world veteran from the Second World War, who fought the Ukrainian independence against the Russians and continues to support the troops today, even at his age of 98.

DAVID PUGLIESE: So Yaroslav Hunka was a member of this Waffen-SS unit. Every single MP in the Commons, and officials such as Chief of Defence Staff Wayne Eyre, head of the Canadian Forces, gave Mr. Hunka a standing ovation. He was called a hero.

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[applause]

FMR. HOUSE SPEAKER ANTHONY ROTA: He's a Ukrainian hero. A Canadian hero. And we thank him for all his service. Thank you.

[applause]

DAVID PUGLIESE: They should have known immediately when he was introduced as someone who fought against the Soviet Union during the Second World War. It just shows the lack of knowledge of history. And a lot of people weren't happy. The Division has been accused of war crimes by the Poles. They're alleged to have taken part in massacres in Polish villages, so the Polish government was not happy. They've been alleged to have taken part in massacres during the war in Slovakia and in other locations. So it did not go down well for, for many people.

JP: Right. The people who were in this unit, were they volunteers or were they conscripted at the time?

DAVID PUGLIESE: So initially, they were volunteers. And so, the Nazis were losing the war. They needed to shore up, you know, some of their fighting units. You've got the British Canadians landing and the Americans landing in Italy. You've got the D-Day invasion coming. The Soviets are pushing towards Berlin. And so they, the Nazis needed more soldiers. And these individuals, there is 80,000 of them that volunteered initially for this unit.

JP: Right. And I just want to read to you a line from a report that historian Alti Rodal wrote, who did some work on this. [DAVID: Mm-hmm.] "Members of the Division state that they volunteered not because of love of the Germans, but because of their hatred of Russians and their communist tyranny." These were people who had been subjected to a forced famine -- the Holodomor by Joseph Stalin. An estimated 3.9 million Ukrainians died. And I just wonder if you could elaborate on that a little bit for me.

DAVID PUGLIESE: Now, if you take a look, the recruiting material for the Division, for instance, had a hook-nosed octopus with a Star of David and, you know, an SS soldier slaying this, this obvious Jewish creature. So there was a lot of antisemitism because the Jews were associated with being behind the Soviets. You also-- Alti Rodal also noted that a number of these individuals, before they went to this Waffen-SS unit, had taken part or most likely took part in the Holocaust, in the executions of Jewish men, women and children that was happening in Ukraine. So, but the narrative that Ukrainian nationalists push is that they're all heroes and that they only wanted to fight, you know, the Soviet-- you know, stopping them from coming into Ukraine again. However, that doesn't explain why they're putting down a national uprising for the Nazis in Slovakia and in other places.

JP: And just to be clear for our listeners here, like, this opinion is not representative of the entire Ukrainian population, obviously.

DAVID PUGLIESE: No. One-- Yeah, of course. One of the things that you-- that some Ukrainian nationalists say is by bringing this up, you're smearing all Ukrainians in Canada, around the world. But that's ridiculous in the sense that we're talking about individuals who fought for Adolf Hitler and, and his regime. And they pledged allegiance to Adolf Hitler. So, you know, I would point out, you know, that Mr. Hunka was honoured in the House of Commons with a standing ovation, but we had 40,000 Ukrainian Canadians who fought with our military during the Second World War. Why not get one of those individuals and call that person legitimately a hero?

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JP: David, this idea that we allowed so many of these folks that were part of the Nazis into our country -- not just Ukrainians, but other Eastern Europe-- people from other Eastern European countries, Germany -- to what extent was that happening in other countries too, after the war?

DAVID PUGLIESE: Sure. So each country has, has a history of this. The Americans, you know, the American space program, for instance, put a man on the moon because of Nazi scientists. Wernher von Braun, the father of the American space program, was a member of the SS, or a member of the Nazi Party.

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TV HOST: I believe you were forced to join the Nazi Party, as I understand.

WERNHER VON BRAUN: No, this isn't quite right.

TV HOST: Oh.

[audience laughs]

WERNHER VON BRAUN: I got a letter--

TV HOST: I was trying to make it sound...

WERNHER VON BRAUN: I got a letter, one fine day, which said, We understand you, you would like to join the party. And here's a form, an application form. But the circumstances were such that the message would have been very loud and clear, you know, had you not sent it in.

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WERNHER VON BRAUN: If we are to extend men's boundary to the outer reaches of the universe, it is imperative that we also resolve men's relationship with men on this earth.

DAVID PUGLIESE: And some of the individuals that worked on the space program were actually Nazi war criminals. So the technology that, you know, these Nazi scientists had was very desirable. The anti-communist pedigree of these individuals was important to these countries. And so countries around the world, Western countries, let these individuals in.

JP: And what do we know about the lives that these people lived once they settled down here in Canada? You, you mentioned in the U.S. there were Nazis in NASA, but what about here?

DAVID PUGLIESE: Well, so these individuals integrated into our society. And Peter Savaryn, he became the University of Alberta chancellor from '82, 1982 to '96, [he was] heavily involved with the Conservative Party of Canada. He was a Waffen-SS veteran of Waffen-SS Galicia. We're probably the only country in the world that had a university chancellor as an SS soldier. He died in, you know, 2017. But last year after the Hunka issue, you know, Governor General Mary Simon had apologized for the fact that Savaryn was awarded the Order of Canada in 1987.

JP: Right. And then also after the Hunka scandal, it came to light that there had been, you know, many financial contributions to the University of Alberta as well, from people with links to the Ukrainian Waffen-SS. And including Hunka's family, who made a $30,000 donation. Um, that has since been returned. But I want to note that the university is still reviewing these endowments more broadly.

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JP: So I want to just come back to this list and the names that are not being released. In deciding whether to make this list public, Library and Archives Canada said that it consulted a number of stakeholders. And who did they talk to?

DAVID PUGLIESE: So they talked to two Jewish groups and the rest were made up of mainly Ukrainian organizations, Eastern European organizations. Who they didn't consult was, like for instance, the Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Holocaust Center, as well as Holocaust survivors. So they took some criticism for that.

JP: And we reached out to Library and Archives Canada and the Department of Canadian Heritage on this. And I just want to summarize what the Heritage Minister's Office said to us in response. That even though they value transparency, this is about protecting individual, national and international security. That they came to this conclusion from talking to public security officials who are experts on this, who are considering, quote, "the geopolitical context at this time." And, David, what do you make of that response? What do they mean by that?

DAVID PUGLIESE: So what they mean is that this list, they're worried that this list will be used by the Russians to push propaganda. You know, saying, Look, Canada is this haven for Nazis and that type of thing. And so-- And then use it against Ukraine, which is obviously fighting against the Russian invasion. So that is the main issue here. You know, I mean, the irony of it is that when MPs stood, you know, and gave that ovation to Mr. Hunka, they gave the Russians a propaganda win of epic proportions.

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REPORTER: The incident led to the speaker's resignation, and now ridicule from a leader who claims he isn't waging war in Ukraine, but trying to denazify it.

PUTIN TRANSLATOR: If he really didn't know that Hitler was fighting against Russia during that war, then he's an idiot.

REPORTER: Putin made the remark...

DAVID PUGLIESE: That, that horse is already out of the barn.

JP: Right. And just on this issue of Russian disinformation. I remember -- I know you do, you covered it -- back in 2017, I believe, a number of articles started circulating about our deputy prime minister Chrystia Freeland's grandfather's ties to the Nazis. And this issue of alleged Russian propaganda was, you know, very much front and centre at the time, right?

DAVID PUGLIESE: So Chrystia Freeland grandfather was the editor of an antisemitic Nazi propaganda newspaper that was based in Ukraine/Poland during the Second World War. And that's an established fact. So the concern is that the Russians would use that to embarrass Chrystia Freeland. And so we get this, we get this issue where even repeating this now, you know, people would be accused of spreading Russian disinformation. So, you know, some of the top Holocaust scholars in the world have been accused of spreading Russian disinformation. I'm sure your show will be accused of that. I've been accused. It just, it seems, anyone who goes and outlines the basic facts, somehow we're helping the Russians, even though the accuracy is there.

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JP: We talked earlier about how other countries, the U.S., for example, has been a lot more transparent, right, about their history. How you could go and find a lot of these names, right? [DAVID: Mm-hmm.] Why not Canada?

DAVID PUGLIESE: There's been a lot of pressure. I mean, the reason the Deschênes Commission was started in the '80s was because of all this pressure and concern that Nazi war criminals had come here. But there was a lot of pushback, particularly from-- well, from the Eastern European communities, but in particular, the Ukrainian community. And so we're still getting that pushback. The Ukrainian Canadian Congress released a statement that they were going to do a legal challenge to prevent this, you know, the release of these names. They don't have to do that legal challenge now. But there's a lot of push. And historians, Holocaust historians will say that they just haven't come to grips with or they won't accept the role that was played during the Holocaust and during the Third Reich by nationalistic individuals.

JP: Mm-hmm. Um, the government is saying that they would revisit the decision to keep this list secret. Do you see them reversing it, and what do you think this means for Canada's reputation when it comes to dealing with alleged Holocaust perpetrators?

DAVID PUGLIESE: I don't see them... You know, access to information system has collapsed under, under the last two governments, so I don't see this being revisited any time soon. However, I think this is going to backfire. Because now you see online people asking, Why are they not, why are they not putting out the names? Most, if not all of these individuals on that list are probably dead. And so there's-- this secrecy kind of propels this myth, or it propels this idea, this narrative, that maybe the Canadian government is hiding something here.

JP: David, thank you so much for this. Really appreciate it.

DAVID PUGLIESE: Great. Thank you.

[Music: Theme]

JP: All right. That is all for today. I'm Jayme Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow.

Canada's secret list of alleged Nazi war criminals - Transcript

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