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Front Burner Transcript for November 1, 2024

Host: Jayme Poisson

JAYME POISSON: Hi, I'm Jayme Poisson.

[music]

JP: Rima Mohammad is a professor and clinician in Ann Arbor, Michigan. She's also an elected school board trustee and a lifelong Democrat.

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RIMA MOHAMMAD: I do feel that with the Democratic Party compared to the Republican Party, or really any other party, is that it is a party that includes all of us. And that includes Arab Americans, Muslim Americans, Black Americans, and other marginalized communities. So I always felt like it was a home for me, to be able to advocate for my rights and my community rights, to advocate for things like policy changes to make sure that we're protected.

JP: Rima is also a Palestinian American. She arrived in the United States at five years old from Lebanon. Her family had fled as refugees. As you can imagine, the last year has taken an incredible toll on her.

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RIMA MOHAMMAD: My grandparents were Nakba survivors. And, you know, they were pushed out of their homes in Akka, which is in Israel, to go to Lebanon. And my parents lived through refugee camps in Lebanon. So just living through this and seeing my people being bombed and the risk of them, you know, really leaving their own country, it really brings a lot of emotion. And I do have a connection to Lebanon because it was a second home, you know, outside of the U.S. When we visited family, it was in Lebanon. My summers in Lebanon were full of wonderful memories. And I was a U.S. citizen that was stuck in the Israeli and Lebanese war in 2006. I did hear those bombs fall. So it does bring a lot of trauma, and it continuing and expanding is really traumatic.

JP: At the start of this year, Rima got involved with an anti-war campaign in Michigan, that has since grown into something with the potential to have big consequences for the presidential election. The Uncommitted movement.

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[protesters chant: "Uncommitted, uncommitted!"]

PROTESTER 1: [on megaphone] We are voting uncommitted!

[protesters chant: "Uncommitted, uncommitted!"]

JP: Back in the Democratic presidential primary in Michigan in February, Joe Biden was running uncontested. But Michigan is one of the states that have this option on their primary ballot. So you could mark 'Uncommitted,' basically meaning: None of the above. So a group called Listen to Michigan called on Democrats to vote 'uncommitted' in the primary to send Biden a message: Call for a permanent ceasefire and stop sending U.S. aid to Israel, or risk losing our votes in November. "The threat to Biden's reelection isn't that anti-war Democrats will vote for Trump," they wrote on their website. "It's that they won't vote at all." The campaign was a huge success.

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REPORTER 1: The results show that in many communities that have higher Arab-American populations, President Joe Biden didn't do very well there.

JP: More than 100,000 voters marked 'uncommitted' in the Michigan Democratic primaries. In two cities, 'uncommitted' actually got more votes than Biden did. The campaign then spread to other primaries across the country. And as the war has raged on, so has the Uncommitted movement, even under a new Democratic candidate.

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UNCOMMITTED VOTER: In the Arab and Muslim community, we've been voting for Democrats for a long time. We've hosted Democrats in our homes. But at this point, our money is going to our families overseas who need aid because of direct results from this administration, which she's part of.

JP: Of course, it's also been very controversial.

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UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER 1: So for those that are uncommitted, or for those that decide not to vote, or for those that are deciding to vote for Jill Stein, not voting is a vote for Donald Trump.

JP: And nowhere does all this matter more than in Uncommitted's home state of Michigan. Not just because it's one of seven crucial swing states where elections are won or lost by the smallest of margin, but also because it's home to the U.S.'s first Arab-majority city, Dearborn, its first Muslim-majority city, Hamtramck, and it's the state with the largest proportion of Arab Americans. In Michigan, these are voting blocs with real power. So today I am talking to Rima, who also represented Uncommitted as a delegate at the Democratic National Convention, about the movement, the election, Kamala Harris, and whether she thinks that Democrats can repair their damaged relationships with Arab- and Muslim-American communities.

[Music: Theme]

JP: You got involved in the Uncommitted movement in its early days in the run up to the presidential primary in Michigan. And back when you first got involved, what was the message that you wanted to send to the Biden administration?

RIMA MOHAMMAD: The biggest push, the biggest reason was to ask for President Biden to change course when it comes to Israel and Gaza, to immediately implement a permanent and bilateral ceasefire, and to help rebuild Gaza. And it was amazing. I mean, there was, I think, less than four weeks of organizing, and we were able to get 101,000 Uncommitted voters. So it was, I believe it was a very successful campaign here in Michigan. And again, what really motivated me is the message.

JP: And in the spring of this year and going into the summer, how would you say you were feeling in that movement?

RIMA MOHAMMAD: It was hard because I would see that there would be these humanitarian pauses, these temporary ceasefires. And really it was not big changes because, like, you can't have these pauses and then continue to bomb my own people afterwards.

JP: But there was this massive change that happened in July, right? Biden stepped down and he endorsed Kamala Harris. And when it became clear that Harris was likely to be the new nominee, how did you feel? Were you hopeful that she might have a different approach to the war in Gaza?

RIMA MOHAMMAD: Yeah, of course. I mean, I was hopeful because it was a different person. It is Biden's administration, and I know that she is part of that. But it is someone who is not the primary person driving what is happening in Israel and Gaza.

JP: So I know that you were elected as a delegate to the Democratic National Convention in August representing the Uncommitted movement. I understand there are around 30 Uncommitted delegates in total. And I know the group had a bunch of demands for Kamala Harris and for the DNC, but there were two main ones, right? And can you tell me what they were, going into the DNC?

RIMA MOHAMMAD: Yeah. So we went in knowing that, you know, with these Uncommitted delegates, we have behind us seven-- about 750,000 Uncommitted voters that believed that a permanent ceasefire, bilateral permanent ceasefire would happen, but also an arms embargo, and that we wanted to see a change in policy. Harris coming forward and saying that first, that she does support an arms embargo. The other request is having a panel about Palestine, which we did get from the DNC. So that was a successful ask. But also having a Palestinian-American speaker speaking from the stage at the DNC was crucial. And by the way, that ask was asked months before the DNC. So it wasn't something that was asked right at the DNC. And it was crucial for us to have a Palestinian-American speaker, 'cause first of all, it was just as crucial to have an Israeli family speak about their pains, about the struggle. You know, they, they needed to share their perspective of their son being still a hostage, you know, at that time.

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ISRAELI-AMERICAN MOTHER OF HOSTAGE: One of those Americans is our only son. His name is Hirsch. He's 23 years old. And like Vice President Kamala Harris, Hirsch was born in Oakland, California. Hirsch, if you can hear us, we love you. Stay strong. Survive.

RIMA MOHAMMAD: And I remember hearing that speech and it was very emotional. I mean, it was very hard not to cry through that, because, you know, as a Palestinian, I'm like, it didn't have to get to this point. [JP: Mm-hmm.] Where, you know, their son is a hostage at that time. So I felt like it was still, it was crucial to have a Palestinian also, you know, during this time, during this tragedy, share their perspective of what's happening. It is a way for us to make sure that we also belong in the party. We belong in this big tent that, you know, throughout the DNC was being talked about, you know, multiple, multiple times by multiple, multiple speakers.

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JP: But that didn't happen, right? You didn't get that ask. And why, why did you not get it? Did they explain to you why they weren't going to allow a Palestinian-American speaker at the DNC?

RIMA MOHAMMAD: So I remember that, that time very vividly. And honestly, it was very traumatic because, and very emotional because I, I do remember... you know, we'd just finished hearing the Israeli family talk about their son. And that point was very emotional to all the delegates and especially, you know, it was very emotional to me. And I remember Bas [ph], who is one of the leaders of the Uncommitted national movement, told all of us delegates to come out. There's an important, you know, information that they wanted to-- that he wanted to share. And that's when we found out that they were not going to let a Palestinian-American speaker who was of their choosing, where the speech would have been looked at and approved by the DNC and by the Harris campaign before it would happen, that that was denied. And it triggered a lot of emotions, from feeling dehumanized, feeling as if I'm a second-tier citizen in this country; not feeling that the Democratic Party wanted me to be a voice or, you know, Palestinian being a voice, you know, on that stage, our community being represented. It was really hard to hear. We did not get the reason why that was denied. And I remember, you know, we ended up doing a sit-in outside of the DNC. And I remember seeing some of the Harris and the DNC delegates outside checking in on us and trying to figure out a way to be able to meet in the middle, either through, you know, private meetings with the campaign and the DNC representatives... But this was a very simple and very, very easy ask. And honestly, it could have been a win for the campaign. I could have went home to my communities and said, look, they want us in the party. And when that was denied, it was a huge loss. And honestly, you know, because of that one event, that triggered a cascade of feelings of anger and dehumanization among the Muslim and Arab communities.

JP: Can you tell me more about what you heard from those communities when you went back to Michigan after the DNC?

RIMA MOHAMMAD: It was really hard. I already-- you know, being at the DNC, it was a very surreal, like, almost like an alternate reality experience, because it was a time of celebration while I was seeing more and more of my people dying. And so that experience alone was, you know, sharing that with the community was really hard. But not having a Palestinian-American speaker, I mean, I felt so humiliated. And you can feel that humiliation among the Muslim and Arab community. And so what I would hear is, See, the Democratic Party doesn't want us. There was a lot of anger. I mean, these are true Dems. These are lifelong Dems that felt pushed away. And unfortunately, there has been many other events that have happened since the DNC that triggered more and more anger and the feeling of dehumanization and the feeling of not belonging and not feeling safe. You know, it... I can't even describe. Like, it is... it's almost like the point of no return at this point.

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JP: Tell me what you've seen from the Harris campaign since that moment. How have they campaigned in Michigan, and broadly, how do you think that's been received by Arab and Muslim voters in your state?

RIMA MOHAMMAD: So I know that the Harris campaign has, and Vice President Harris had separate private meetings with some members of the Muslim community. But none of these meetings were public. I don't believe she's made any effort to campaign in areas like Dearborn or areas where she-- there was outreach to a larger Muslim and Arab community. And also, honestly, at this point, Harris really needed to come out and have a change in policy; come out and say that she will be different from Biden when it comes to what is happening in Gaza and Israel. That she does support an arms embargo. There needs to be more proof. That's what the community wants to see, is that how, how is Harris going to be different? And I don't believe the campaign or Vice President Harris is doing that.

JP: Do you see any daylight between Biden and Harris on this issue?

RIMA MOHAMMAD: I personally see, you know, just speaking for myself and not the community, I see that, you know, she may be different, but I don't see proof. I just went to a Harris rally here in Ann Arbor recently, and I was hoping to hear more from her. She did have an Arab American speak from the stage at her rally. And he did, you know, talk about what's happening in Gaza and Lebanon and Israel, and that he believes that Harris would end the war. But I didn't hear it from her. And I believe that that is what most of the Muslim and Arab community are feeling as well. I'm not hearing a large support from the Muslim and Arab community for Harris. There is a group that will. I see that more and more are not voting, which is very unfortunate. But I also see a large portion of people supporting Jill Stein at this point as a protest vote, because they know that she's not going to win. But they're not seeing any-- from both sides, from Harris and Trump, that they would support an arms embargo and they would end this, this war immediately.

JP: I'm going to come back to that with you in a minute. Just, I wanted to bring up another thing that Harris has been criticized for. There are a couple of people that she has campaigned with in Michigan. One is House Democrat Ritchie Torres of New York, who has been a very vocal supporter of Israel's military campaign in Gaza. And the other is Liz Cheney, who is not just the daughter of former Vice President Dick Cheney, one of the architects of the Iraq war, she herself has also defended the war, as well as America's use of waterboarding in Iraq.

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LIZ CHENEY: I think it's very important that we recognize that folks that sort of stand up and say, well, that was torture and we shouldn't waterboard -- number one, they're wrong. And number two, they've got to then be willing to say how many American lives are they willing to sacrifice because they don't want to waterboard a terrorist.

JP: How do you think campaigning with those two people in particular landed with Arab and Muslim voters in the state?

RIMA MOHAMMAD: It pushed them further away. I mean, that's the reality, is that, you know, again, this is a community that have seen their own candidates they supported lose to AIPAC-funded candidates.

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UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER 2: It is something that progressives are taking very seriously. Especially since you had this huge, enormous record-breaking sum of money: $25 million spent in a single primary race in a House race. $15 million of that, which came from the pro-Israel lobbying group AIPAC and their super PAC, aimed directly at Jamaal Bowman. They've taken him out. And so other progressives are now on edge, especially since AIPAC and their super PAC are spending millions of dollars now to unseat other progressives...

RIMA MOHAMMAD: This is a community that has a large Iraqi community, you know, in Michigan, that has seen, you know, the tragedy that happened in Iraq under Cheney's leadership. So, again, this compounded the anger, feeling that the party does not want them. And, you know, being part of the Muslim and Arab community, you know, after 9/11, it was very hidden. They were scared, they kept their head down. We weren't really involved too much with politics. And after October 7th and the devastation that we've seen in Gaza, now in Lebanon and elsewhere, everyone just woke up. And I've never seen this level of awareness, a level of organizing that I've ever seen in my lifetime. So these missteps that the Harris campaign is doing, everyone in the Muslim and Arab community are aware and are watching every step.

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JP: I just want to talk to you about some of the criticisms you hear when, you know, you hear people talk about how they will not vote for Harris or they will not vote at all, or they might vote for a third-party candidate. And the argument, what it mainly comes down to is this idea that it will help to elect Trump by doing any of those three things. And the first argument here is that Trump would be even less likely to work towards a permanent ceasefire or to support Palestinian rights than the Democrats have been. And just for one example, Bernie Sanders just published an op-ed where he wrote, "We will have, in my view, a much better chance of changing U.S. policy with Harris than with Trump, who is extremely close to Netanyahu and sees him as a like-minded right-wing extremist ally." And what would you say to those kinds of arguments?

RIMA MOHAMMAD: Yeah. I, you know, from... what I'm hearing from the Muslim and Arab community is, they do see that. They do see that Trump is a danger to our communities as well as many other marginalized communities, including immigrants and refugees. You know, the heart-- what I'm hearing from, though, is, and I hear that, is that, you know, if you vote for a third party, it's a vote for Trump. You know, I'm hearing those arguments, but the community is pushing back and saying, Harris needs to be able to win our vote. She has to earn our vote. So I think there's a lot of pushback about that. But also, you know, it was really hard to hear from some of the community members saying that they feel that, yes, Trump is a danger, but things can't get worse than it is now. [JP: Hm.] They're saying there's a, you know, genocide happening, you know, in Gaza. Their people are dying. They're bombing other countries, and now you have Lebanon involved. So they see it as a, you know, having Harris or having Trump as president, it's going to be the same outcome. What is happening in Gaza, what is happening in Lebanon, will still happen. [JP: Mm-hmm.] But it was really hard to hear from some that have told me that they felt safer under Trump. [JP: Hm.] And it's not something that I can really argue with them because that's how they're feeling right now. And I can kind of understand why they don't feel safe now. What has been happening in Gaza and Israel is impacting us locally here. People are being doxxed. People are losing their jobs. You know, you have the student protesters that are being silenced, being prosecuted by our, you know, Michigan attorney general.

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REPORTER 2: This comes just days after AG Nessel completed her review of the May University of Michigan protest incidents regarding the war in Gaza.

PROTESTER 2: We are all Palestinians!

REPORTER 2: And as someone born and raised in Gaza, physician Alaa Ali taking the AG's decision even more personally, describing the impact protests have here on his family and other Palestinians living over there.

ALAA ALI: My brother, the other day, called me when they start to... And he said that some of them were taken, you know, to jail. He said, Please, thank them for me. [emotional] You're the only one standing by us.

RIMA MOHAMMAD: There is racism. I mean, just recently in one of our schools, a kid was called a terrorist by a school counsellor. I mean, this is... this is real.

JP: What do they say about other domestic policy issues? Health care, the environment, immigration... There's a very clear difference between the candidates. And are these issues that people talk about as well? Is that moving the needle at all?

RIMA MOHAMMAD: They do. And I think that is what is moving the needle, is thinking of the other things that are happening, the other issues. But it's hard because, again, they come back and say, well, we could fix these issues if we'd stop sending billions of dollars to Israel to keep bombing our own people. So there's always this counter argument of, these issues are important. And it's true, they are very important. Climate change... You know, I'm a pharmacist, so health care is a huge issue. I mean, we are going backwards when it comes to health care. I'm on the school board. I see firsthand, public school funding is not where it needs to be. So the counter argument is that, well, we could bring that money back home and stop funding these unnecessary wars. You know, and this is, again, under a Democratic president. You know, we can move those funds to help these other issues that are important for the Democratic Party and for Democratic voters.

JP: Do you mind if I ask you, do you know how you're going to vote?

RIMA MOHAMMAD: That's a tough, tough question. At this point, I'm still uncommitted. I just can't see myself supporting someone part of the administration that's doing this to my people. But at the same time, I know the dangers of Trump. So I'm hoping that something will change before election day to hopefully sway my vote to support Harris.

JP: Okay. Rima, I want to thank you very much.

RIMA MOHAMMAD: Yeah, and I appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

[Music: Theme]

JP: All right, that is all for this week. Front Burner was produced this week by Joyita Sengupta, Matt Ahma, Matt Meuse, Allie Jaynes and Aajah Sauter. Ajah, thank you so much for all your hard work. We're really going to miss you but can't wait to see what you do next. Sound design is by Mackenzie Cameron and Marco Luciano. Music is by Joseph Shabason. Our senior producer is Elaine Chau. Our executive producer is Nick McCabe-Lokos. And I'm Jayme Poisson. Thanks so much for listening to Front Burner and we'll talk to you next week, U.S. election week. All right. See you then.

An undecided Palestinian Democrat in Michigan - Transcript

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