'They lose their jobs': Sexual harassment survivor says there are risks to coming forward

Two weeks into Michelle Jones' new job, her manager felt her leg under a table and showed her images of lingerie-clad women on his phone.

She says this went on every day for eight months until she was fired.

Jones, calling on Sunday from Aurora, Ont., told Checkup host Duncan McCue that she was let go before she could make a complaint, and little was done when she eventually reported her former boss' behaviour.

She says the focus shouldn't only be on condemning sexual misconduct in political workplaces, but in all workplaces.

"I think a lot of people don't realize that this does go on in the average workplace. And not only are women being harassed, but they lose positions, they lose their jobs."

She is optimistic about the #MeToo movement bringing to light cases like hers.

"If anything, it will make men sort of stop and maybe think and listen and realize, 'Gee, you know what? I have to change my behaviour now.'"

Listen to the full conversation above, or read the transcript below.

Duncan McCue: We're talking to how #MeToo has swept up Canadian politics this week. What are your thoughts?

Michelle Jones: My thoughts are it's absolutely great. I think it's time. We need to look at this issue in the workplace.

When they first brought it up in the political workplace, it was sort of, 'Why we have to do something about this in the government' and I thought, 'You need to do something about this in every workplace.' 

I think a lot of people don't realize that this does go on in the average workplace. And not only are women being harassed, but they lose positions, they lose their jobs.

DM: You've had some personal experience in the workplace. Can you tell us about it, Michelle?

MJ: Sure. So I took on a job — I left one job to go to another. And with only two weeks in the job, my manager felt my leg under a table. And at the same time, on his phone, [he] showed me pictures of women wearing underwear and [told me] which style he preferred while he was grunting. 

I was there for eight months. It went on every single day. In his office, there was non-stop talk about sex. I don't think we talked about anything else.

This gentleman very much wanted control, and he told me that he had fired another woman before me and that I should never go against him or I would lose.

In this situation, what do you do? I needed the job. I left a job to go to that job. I had a friend that worked for that company for 30 years and I didn't want to cause any trouble.

But at the same time it's very, very difficult every single day. And in the end he let me go. My work ethic was fantastic.

And this is the thing that really bothers me — there was no written or oral discussion about anything that was wrong. And then one day he called me into HR and said that I didn't fit in. And that's why he was getting rid of me.

The problem too was that, of course, we talked to the labour board, we talked to a lot of different people. One lawyer said to me that he has a thousand of these cases every single month and he feels so badly because there's nothing he can do unless you have video or audio recording. I called the labour board and how they explained it to me was, my boss could let me go if he didn't like the colour of my shoes. And this is exactly what they said. As long as he pays my severance, he can do that.

DM: So Michelle, we're fortunate to have Simona Jellinek, a personal injury lawyer who specializes in sexual assault here in the studio with us and she's been listening to your story and she has a few thoughts.

Simona Jellinek: With regards to the lawyers that have explained to you that you need a kind of video evidence or audio evidence, I'm not sure if that's really the only thing that you need.

In these cases, yes it's almost always a 'he said-she said,' but with proper investigation there should be ways to deal with it without having to say, 'Unless you can bring me specific proof, I can't help you.' That's really not the case because sexual assault and sexual harassment are done in secret, by and large.

So courts have evolved, and I think that society has evolved to the point where there's an understanding that it's not simply a yes or a no, whether or not you actually have video evidence or a witness. That would be too simplistic frankly. These are situations which are complicated and each one is very different, but there are other options to pursue.

I think that this raises the issue that we've been talking about — about that power, about that equality and this is a very typical example of what happens in the workplace, where you've got a man — because it's usually men — who doesn't like you because you're not doing what he wants you to do. While it's true that the labour board said, 'Yeah, an employer can fire you if he doesn't like the colour of your of your shoes,' that's a far cry from an employer harassing you sexually and firing you as a result of you not acquiescing to his demands.

MJ: Right, but the problem is he fired me before I made a complaint.

SJ: Well yes, but that doesn't stop you from complaining to, for instance, the Human Rights Commission or whatnot. Of course the central problem is that you're out of the job. So that's the reality of the situation.                

DM: And Michelle, if I could jump in — you decided to call today, and I'm wondering, how do you feel about the way the conversation is going right now in terms of the #MeToo movement and opportunities for women to speak up about the kinds of concerns that you're expressing?

MJ: Oh gosh, I think it is so needed and it's really going to do great things. I think, if anything, it will make men sort of stop and maybe think and listen and realize, "Gee, you know what? I have to change my behaviour now." But in some cases, I don't think it will change depending on the company you work for. So, for example, I did report this after and they went and asked him questions and he said, 'No, that didn't happen. No, I didn't do it.' And that was the end of it.

All comments have been edited and condensed. This online segment was prepared by Samraweet Yohannes.