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The AIH Transcript for September 30, 2024

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NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Family ties. A Calgary man flies to Lebanon to reunite with his wife and five young children. He doesn't know how he'll get them back to Canada, but he tells us he's grateful they're together. Come what may.

CH: A lot on the line. With Israeli tanks amassing on the border and Hezbollah promising renewed missile attacks. A woman in northern Israel tells us she has seen enough of war.

NK: Long road ahead. A pastor in North Carolina says everyone in his small town is coming together after the catastrophe of Hurricane Helene, but it will be a long time before things feel normal again.

CH: A step in the Far Right direction. A party founded by Nazis has won Austria's election. Our guest says the Freedom Party and its anti-immigration leader are part of a disturbing growing shift in Europe.

NK: Learning by heart. A young educational assistant at a Manitoba First Nation school shares how she is marking this National Day for Truth and Reconciliation with her students.

CH: And Kris and tell. Rodney Crowell remember a singer songwriter and renaissance man Kris Kristofferson, saying his longtime friend was a pioneer in many ways, including being the first to bring the bedroom to country music. As It Happens, the Monday edition radio, that salutes a man who put the 'true' in 'troubadour'.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Lebanon: Displaced Resident, Helene: North Carolina, Kris Kristofferson Obituary

Lebanon: Displaced Resident

Guest: Youssef Mustafah Saleh

CH: Well, scores of people in Lebanon were fleeing their homes to try to find safety, Youssef Mustafah Saleh headed toward the danger. This weekend, the Calgary resident flew into Beirut to reunite with his wife and five young children with the goal of getting them out of the country and back to Canada. He is embarking on this rescue mission as Israel continues to exchange fire with Hezbollah. Dozens of people were reported dead in Lebanon this weekend. And tonight, Israel continues to strike what it says are Hezbollah targets in Beirut's southern suburbs. Hundreds of thousands of others have fled the south since the escalation in hostilities began last week. And now Israel's defence minister has signalled that there could soon be a ground offensive. We reached Youssef Mustafah Saleh at his father in law's house in AL Marj, Lebanon.

NK: Youssef, you're with your family now. I'm wondering how you're doing tonight.

YOUSSEF MUSTAFAH SALEH: Well, so far, so good. It's going day by day. It's stressful. But right now, we're doing okay. I guess.

NK: What do you say to the young ones?

YMS: For the young ones, we kind of distract them and we don't tell them how it is. We don't sugarcoat anything or lie to them. We tell them we are in war, but we do distract them with games and other activities, but they shouldn't be involved in the stress that we're dealing with.

NK: As you were making your way to your family in Lebanon, I mean, there are so many, I can only imagine unknowns and questions as you're making that trip. What was weighing on you most in those moments as you travelled?

YMS: Mostly about being away from my family and God forbid, If something happened, that was the reason I was trying to get to Lebanon as soon as possible, just to be with them before something does happen. I'd rather it happened to all of us than just my family, right? So that was going through my mind all the time. If something did happen and I wasn't there, I wouldn't be able to forgive anyone let alone myself.

NK: Your wife and children, as I understand it, travelled to Lebanon a few months ago. What kind of conversations did you have about the. I mean, things had not escalated, obviously to this level. But was that a factor? Was that something you were worried about? Or has all of this come as a very difficult surprise?

YMS: Yeah, it was definitely a difficult surprise. Like we would hear about it, but it wasn't as major as it is now. We never expected it to go to this extreme for sure. It was definitely a surprise for everyone.

NK: You are staying about 35 minutes west in terms of driving outside of Beirut, in terms of the danger. I mean, how close or far does the danger feel to where you are?

YMS: Well, that's the thing. There's danger all the time. And the problem is, like, you don't know what's going to happen. Like we'll expect an airstrike any time. It can happen anytime. Like, it's not like just bombs off 24/7, but it could happen to anyone like it happened to those two Canadians, that pathway through that airstrike. And they were going to the airport as well. Like I was coming from the airport going to west [inaudible] the valley here. And that was the biggest fear of me getting bombed. Well, I'm going to my stay destination because we were trying to take different roads that aren't really familiar to most people. And of doing that the next day, that exact road that we passed by got hit by huge rockets and airstrikes. Pretty much it can happen to anyone.

NK: On top of everything, as you well know, there is a possibility of an Israeli ground offensive looming. Hezbollah's deputy secretary general is vowing to retaliate as well and to continue that. So, as you hear all of that, how do you and your neighbours there cope?

YMS: For me, for me, it's almost like I don't believe it, that it will happen because I'm kind of used to this environment for my neighbours it's weird. They're kind of wishing that they come on grounds that they kind of want to retaliate because everyone's kind of... They don't care anymore. They just... There's people that are pretty much dead. They're alive, but they're dead. So, they want to, they want something to die for. They almost want them to come in and invade so they can fight for their country. Of course, I don't think that's what the people I'm around are, how can I say that? Like war hungry or they almost kind of want to die to be honest, like it's weird.

NK: We've spoken to people who are so used to the, they don't necessarily want war, but it's just they didn't, they were surprised by the escalation, as you were, because it's this constant state, you know, and I spoke to a woman in Northern Israel and she said there might be a little peace. And then years later, our listeners will hear that conversation later. But it's this constant cycle of calm, violence, calm, violence.

YMS: Yeah. And that's what I'm experiencing too. Where they want the peace. But at the same time, they're just sick of everything that's happening because the Lebanese people are going through so much like with the financial crisis and the government and just everything. But you see everything. You see both sides. You see the people that want the peace. And then the Lebanese people that want to escalate this whole it can de-escalate. The other side like myself, they're trying to just take their family and go back to Canada or America or Australia. You pretty much see so many different kinds of people's opinion on what they want. And it's pretty intense.

NK: How do you hope to get your family back to Canada?

YMS: To be honest, I don't know. Right now, we're kind of in a little dilemma. We don't, I don't know. I really don't. Our October 4th ticket to Calgary got cancelled. So now we're just working on finding other flights and other ways to get back to Canada. But right now, there's really no answers. Trust me, my wife asks me every day I do not have an answer for her. So, I'm kind of going day by day, I'm waiting for my flight agent and I'm waiting for the other ways to leave. But we're planning to go to Syria and Jordan but that's also a dangerous route so, we don't know right now.

NK: If you are able to get a flight and get out. Are you going to have to leave your wife's family behind?

YMS: We kind of have no choice. Like her mom and dad have a visa to the United States and Canada. So, they're wanting to leave. But they have a son here and daughter that they don't want to leave behind. So, it's very difficult. So, they can leave but at the same time, they can't leave.

NK: Youssef, thank you very much for your time and please take care. Stay safe.

YMS: I appreciate you calling. Thank you.

NK: Thank you.

CH: Youssef Mustafah Saleh runs a construction company in Calgary. We reached him earlier today in Al Marj, Lebanon. Coming up in the next half hour of the show, we will speak to an Israeli woman who lives within a kilometre of the border with Lebanon.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Helene: North Carolina

Guest: Jeff Dowdy

CH: Hurricane Helene has moved on from North Carolina. But for those who live there, the ordeal is far from over. Over the weekend, the storm battered and flooded the state. In one county alone, at least 30 people are dead. Others are still unaccounted for and many have either lost their homes or are dealing with unfathomable damage. The community of Swannanoa was among the hardest hit. It is still without power. Jeff Dowdy is the pastor at the local First Baptist Church, where volunteers have set up an impromptu aid station. That's where we reached him.

NK: Pastor, can you tell us what's going on around you now?

JEFF DOWDY: Sure. So right now, we're just kind of in a state of doing some recovery. At our church currently, we're handing out bottled water. We're handing out food. We've had some individuals who lost some of their power to their home, and so they needed to bring their meat down so that we could cook it. One gentleman had just slaughtered a cow last week, and so he brought it all down here. So, we've been cooking up hamburgers and anything we can really get our hands on. So, people have been coming up on a daily basis really just to get food and water throughout the day today and yesterday.

NK: How would you describe the level of need? Because it sounds like it's steady work for you and everyone there.

JD: It's very steady. We have no water access here in Swannanoa, there's no power. So that has become a huge need. We've had to ration some of our water because we've run out of it several times.

NK: Your church doesn't have power, so how are you helping when you need help?

JD: So, we have gas inside the house. Okay, inside the church. We also have a grill outside. And so that's how we're kind of cooking. But they have to use headlamps inside as they're cooking on the gas, in our gas kitchen. We do have a gymnasium that has a natural light coming in. So that's how we're putting together sandwiches, peanut butter sandwiches, cheese sandwiches and putting together some to-go bags for people of snacks and things that they can take back to their home.

NK: There is still so much uncertainty and there's certainly been so much, so much loss. There are people stranded in their homes, others who are unaccounted for still. How are you and those who are coming to speak with you, dealing with those realities and those questions?

JD: Well, it's just now hitting home to us because we have had really no of access to news outside of our area. We yesterday just got back consistent cell service. We have no Internet. And of course, with no power at home, people are trying to use their phones very judiciously to make sure that they don't just waste their battery. What's been amazing, though, is really the body of Christ of the church all across our state and other states are calling, they're bring in supplies here. And that's been really amazing to see. I don't know that we quite, all the people here have a grasp on what all has happened here because we don't see everything from the outside. Right now.

NK: You're just trying to get through it still as well. If you don't mind, Pastor, going back to what it was like when the storm actually hit, I know you had to use a chainsaw to physically get out of your neighbourhood and get to the church.

JD: Yes. So, there was, we live about 10 minutes from our church. And so, the trees in our neighbourhood, there were so many that fell. And so just to get out our neighbours, others just had to chainsaw around so we could get out. But yeah, the storm was, was violent. I don't think we understood exactly all what was going to happen. Even from the warnings we were receiving, it was really devastating.

NK: Yeah, I wondered about that. I asked a guest in Florida who we spoke to on Friday about whether she thought the warnings from officials were sufficient. And she said there were warnings, but we just really didn't expect it to be as bad as it was because previous storms, at least where she is, had not been anywhere near, you know, the kind of destruction. So, it sounds like it was a similar situation for you?

JD: I think so. I mean, the officials, they told us things, you know, could get difficult, that there would be a lot of rain, that the river might rise a little bit. But every official I've talked to, the fire chiefs, everybody, everybody's astonished at what happened The last time we know of a flood like this was 1916, the great flood of 1916 that we've, people in this area have talked about that, that their grandparents told them about it, but now they're experiencing it today.

NK: There have been some very close calls as well, as I understand it. Are there any conversations or stories you've heard so far over the last few days that really stayed with you?

JD: Yeah. We have a gentleman here told earlier about what we're cooking. The cow that he had slaughtered. In essence, his trailer home slid off the mountain and his son was down on the far end dangling over the hill. And so, they had to go get him out of there. And just, you know, you hear about other things that people who had narrow escapes. There was a lady of our church who I saw her yesterday, and I was quite shocked, actually, that she had made it out. And she said just barely. Just barely got out before the floodwaters ravaged her home.

NK: From its name. You know, Swannanoa but also what I've heard from you and what I've seen in terms of pictures of people really embracing each other in a number of ways in these difficult moments. It sounds like you live in a very beautiful and close knit place. So, I wonder, Pastor, what you think the road ahead looks like for you and everyone there?

JD: It's hard to say. I would say, first of all, I think this community, honestly has been sort of separated. This is bringing us together. I have met more people in the last 2 or 3 days than I had met... And I've been here almost 11 years. And so, there are so many people coming out trying to help neighbour to neighbour. Many of our volunteers here at our church right now aren't members of our church. They're people who've come up from the community just saying, how can I help? As far as the road ahead, I don't even know how to venture a guess. There's so much damage that I can't even wrap my mind around where they would even start. There is clean out. Yes. But how that continues on. The roads are destroyed. Places where you think there's stability there, there's a road there, but it could cave in. And so, it is immediate needs. It's just trying to meet needs and people are trying to make it a day at a time.

NK: Pastor, I appreciate your time. Please take care.

JD: Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

CH: Jeff Dowdy is the pastor of the First Baptist Church in Swannanoa, North Carolina. That's where we reached him.

[Music: Chimes instrumental]

Kris Kristofferson Obituary

Guest: Rodney Crowell

SOUNDCLIP

Sunday Morning Coming Down by Kris Kristofferson.

CH: 'Sunday Morning Coming Down', a breakthrough hit for a man who was described as one of country music's true poets. Kris Kristofferson died on Saturday at the age of 88. Another American poet, Walt Whitman, wrote the words, "I contain multitudes". Kris Kristofferson contained multitudes of multitudes. He was a West Point grad, a Rhodes Scholar, a janitor, a movie star, a counterculture icon, and a heartthrob. But it was his career as a songwriter that defined him. Through songs like 'Me and Bobby McGee' and 'Help Me Make It Through the Night'. And collaborations with outlaw country artists like Johnny Cash, Waylon Jennings and Willie Nelson, Mr. Kristofferson helped to completely reinvent what was possible in a country song. Singer songwriter Rodney Crowell was among those inspired by his work. We reached him in Williamson County, Tennessee.

NK: Rodney, you've said it was Kris Kristofferson. Seeing him, hearing him that drew you to Nashville in the first place. What did you hear in his voice and in his lyrics that did that for you?

RODNEY CROWELL: Well, it was that I'd sensed the poet at work, most songwriters, myself included, we say were songwriters, were not poets. But that doesn't mean the poet soul isn't there. And Kris was the first songwriter, really, to bring the bedroom to, quote unquote, country music with songs like 'Help Me Make It Through the Night', which I when I was in college, I sang it over and over and over again in a Holiday Inn lounge where I was making extra money. And I'm sure that I would have never would have written 'Till I Gain Control Again' if I hadn't sang 'Help Me Make It Through the Night' countless times. So, I was really influenced by Kris and hey, he was a long haired star at that particular time. The counterculture hero. Myself and many, Guy Clark and Townsend's and David. Only a bunch of us who first arrive in Nashville in the early '70s. We all were following Kris Kristofferson's star, that's for sure.

NK: And when you saw him for the first time in person, what was that like for you? What did you see in those moments?

RC: Well, the first time I met Kris was in London on tour with Emmylou Harris and The Hot Band. And we did a show with Kris, and he came around and stayed late well into the early morning hours in a hotel room where we passed guitars around and played. And he was charming and larger than life and not as tall as I thought he was.

NK: [Chuckles] Hearing about how you were, you know, up and coming and then reading about Kris Kristofferson, you know, starting as a janitor, desperate to get his demo in the right hands, I believe in Johnny Cash's hands. And Johnny Cash was your father in law. There's a story about how that demo got to Johnny Cash. Can you tell us?

RC: Well, the one I think that story is that Kris landed a helicopter on the grounds of the house that John and June had on Old Hickory Lake. That's one way to arrive. And it's a good way to get your song heard.

NK: Did it happen?

RC: I wasn't there to witness it, but I wouldn't doubt that it happened. Nashville at that particular time was a, it was starting to bloom. And the audacity to imagine such a thing, probably. I mean, it was true.

NK: What did he tell you about that persona, that larger than life persona? I know he didn't like being called a poet. You referred to that, too. But the actor, the songwriter, the performer that so many people were enamoured of, what did he tell you about how he felt about all that?

RC: Although Kris was really sure of himself and had a swagger nine miles wide, he was, I wouldn't say, shy and wasn't reserved he was just, he wasn't a man of a lot of words, apart from his writing. And the conversations with was generally looking for something funny to laugh at more than anything. Which is probably the best hang that you can have with somebody that does what you do. It's just like, what can I say to make you laugh and what can you say to make me laugh? It just makes the social structure work so much better. Holding court on what you think about the state of the music business. That's pretty boring.

NK: Yeah. Those intimate moments I hear what you're saying absolutely. Is there one memory like that that you're holding especially close today where he made you laugh or you made him laugh?

RC: Well, I'm holding close today when I wrote my memoir, Chinaberry Sidewalks. Kris wrote a blurb for the cover and he called me after he had read the book. And he was so gracious about how much he enjoyed. In fact, he said, I read it once and he said I had to see if it was really good as I thought it was. So, I read it twice. I just turned around and read it twice. I don't think I'll ever be able to let that go. And I spent a lot of time around Kris with John. Johnny Cash, we called him John. And a lot of times I just listen to them talk. And there again, they were just trying to make each other laugh.

NK: I'm just imagining that young guy, you going to Nashville because of Kris Kristofferson. And then he writes that and says that about you on your book. And then you're sitting at the feet of Kris Kristofferson and Johnny Cash, who you called John. That's incredible.

RC: It's just, I just pinch myself. I'm not even sure how this happened. How am I so lucky that I get to live this life. That's how I felt about Kris. I just said this guy is just, he's just elevated it all to a higher level. And I love him. I love Kris.

NK: Rodney, thank you. I'm sorry for your loss.

RC: The blessing is so much larger than the loss.

CH: Singer songwriter Rodney Crowell in Williamson County, Tennessee.

[Music: Piano instrumental]

Part 2: Northern Israel, 19 Year Old Teachers Assistant, Austria Far Right, Masai - Dikembe Mutombo

Northern Israel

Guest: Daniella Porat Penso

CH: Daniella Porat Penso is home tonight, less than a kilometre from a war zone. Ms. Porat Penso is a resident of Yiftah, a kibbutz in Northern Israel, within sight of the Lebanese border. As we go to air, Israeli tanks are massing in places on that border, and there are reports of a planned ground offensive into Lebanon. The militant group Hezbollah is promising to repel any such attack and to send ever more missiles and rockets into Northern Israel. In the wake of the assassination of its leader last week, we reached Daniella Porat Penso in Yiftah.

NK: Daniella, what is it like in Yiftah tonight?

DANIELLA PORAT PENSO: It's relatively quiet. But we hear a lot of sounds of artillery, both ours. And most of it is from our side. But it's very loud.

NK: How does that leave you feeling, you and your neighbours?

DPP: First of all, I don't have many neighbours. I live almost alone. In my kibbutz because it was evacuated and I returned there. So, there aren't a lot of people. So, whoever is there is, you know, takes it into consideration. And weirdly enough, I feel safer in where I live than maybe around Haifa or [inaudible] or bit further south now because they're are more targeted now. I'm very, very close to the border, in a small place. So, I hear everything. But well, thank God we're not hit yet.

NK: It's close, but it still feels far enough away that you feel safe.

DPP: No, no, it's not far. It's very, very, very close. There is like a kilometre between us and the border. But we are not targeted. I think, further away settlements and cities are targeted at the moment.

NK: Are you worried that as things escalate, as they have been and based on what we're hearing today and what you are hearing, are you worried that that's going to change?

DPP: I'll tell you the truth, I have no idea. I think all of my friends and my family, when we discuss this, nobody knows.

NK: When you hear what's happening across the border and you can see, as you said, it's not very far at all. We know hundreds of Lebanese people have been killed since the escalation began. What do you make of what you see and hear on the other side of the border?

DPP: It breaks my heart. What can I tell you. I'm not. I'm maybe different than many of my Israelis friends. I'm not. I'm never happy when people are dead. I cannot be happy about, you know, people dying, getting killed, their homes destroyed. It's very difficult for me to see what's going on in Gaza, to see what's going on in Lebanon. And, you know, my heart breaks for our people, too. War is a terrible thing, Nil. It's a terrible, terrible thing. Nobody wins. Nobody.

NK: As you hear about the possibility of an Israeli incursion into Lebanon, a ground invasion. How does that possibility sit with you?

DPP: It makes my heart miss a beat. What can I tell you, because I'm thinking of the consequences. But I'm no politician and I'm no commentator. I cannot say that this guy is wrong or right. Maybe he's right. That all they understand is force and no negotiation is possible. I don't know. I only know what I believe. I believe that war begets, war begets war, begets war. And we've tried it for the last 76 years. Okay. And maybe the only solution for fewer years now. And then it will go again. You know, I've been living here. I'm 57 years old and I was born here. And it's every few years there's a different round and then there's quiet and then there's a different war. And then another war and another war. So, you can't blame me for thinking that war is not a real solution. That's my view.

NK: What would make you feel safer? You know, I wondered when we heard about the killing of Nasrallah, Hezbollah leader, you know, hearing about the back and forth in this conflict, what would make you feel safer? Do those things, those developments make you feel safer?

DPP: No, I don't feel safer or less safer or more. I'm right about the same as I was. I have a strong belief that I'm going to be okay. But, you know, when I think about it and when I talk to my friends who live where I live, you know my neighbours and friends who are not in the kibbutz right now, and all of them say, and I agree that we would feel safer if the Hezbollah troops would be like maybe 20km away from the border like they were supposed to be since 2006. I think it would make us feel much safer. Because the greatest fear is invasion, like what we had in October 7th, right? Like physical invasion of troops. And we really near, we really live near the border, we can touch it. When we go to pick apples in our orchards we are practically almost in Lebanon.

NK: As the anniversary of October 7th approaches and living what you and so many others have lived through. Do you even let yourself think ahead to what this next year might be like?

DPP: I'm very confused right now because I have no idea of what's going on and what's going to happen. So, I'm an optimist. So, I prepare myself for a good year with all the sorrow and everything, you know? And Monday, October 7th, I'm going to be with my friend who lost her son in Nova party and it's all part of our lives now, the grief. So, we do the best we can for our friends and for people who lost and people who were aching. And all I can do is hope for a better time this year.

NK: Daniella, I appreciate your time. [DPP: Does that help?] It does. It does help. I appreciate your time. And thank you. Please stay safe.

DPP: Thank you very much. Bye bye, Nil.

CH: Daniella Porat Penso is a resident of Yiftah, an Israeli kibbutz about a kilometre from the Lebanese border.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

19 Year Old Teachers Assistant

CH: Shaylene Bruce is a 19 year old from Poplar River First Nation in Manitoba. She says it wasn't until she left that community for high school and had the chance to take an Indigenous studies course that she fully grasp the impact that residential schools had had on her community. Her family and her own life now Ms. Bruce is back in Poplar River, working as an educational assistant at a local school. She told her colleagues at CBC Winnipeg's Information Radio, how she's marking this National Day for Truth and Reconciliation by committing herself to passing on everything she's learned to the students she works with.

SOUNDCLIP

SHAYLENE BRUCE: I feel like they're interested when they know that it's their own people, their own culture, and they, the students I work with their special needs and they need one on one, but they're always interested in learning about that. And I want to teach them more about like the, like break it down for them. And I think that's what the other teachers want to do as well. Well, my grandparents were residential school survivors, my two grandfathers, my one grandmother and my other grandmother she went to day school. So, I deal with the trauma that they faced being passed on to us. We're still healing that within my family, I can say. We're not completely there, but I'm hoping for my younger generations that it will get better. It's really important to me to educate these kids on what I wasn't educated on. So, things like that, like when you dive deep into your culture. You go to powwows, Sundance, all that. It just it heals what you didn't even know needed to be healed. I understand that it's hard to learn about all the things that our people have went through, listening to the stories it's really hard. And it makes you sad and mad and it makes you cry, makes you, sometimes it makes you happy when you can hear that they're able to see their siblings for a couple of minutes or give them a hug because, you know, they weren't able to. And just listen to those stories, feel them in your heart and try to understand like what they're going through and why we are going through what we're going through. It was never meant to be passed down, but sadly it was. And it's okay to heal. You don't have to be stuck being angry or sad like it's okay to be happy. And yeah, healing and reconciliation is the biggest thing.

CH: That was 19 year old Shaylene Bruce, an educational assistant in Poplar River First Nation. She was speaking to the CBC's Nadia Kidwai and Josh Crabb.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Austria Far Right

Guest: Robert Treichler

CH: After winning the election in Austria this weekend, Herbert Kickl told his supporters they had "opened the door to a new era". But that door is not open to everyone. During the campaign, Mr. Kickl and his Right Wing Freedom Party promised to restrict immigration and send asylum seekers back to their countries of origin, making Austria a, quote, fortress of freedom, unquote. That philosophy clearly resonated with voters who gave the party its first national victory ever, capturing nearly 30 per cent of the vote. Whether the Freedom Party can form a government remains to be seen. But its victory mirrors similar Far Right wins across Europe, most recently in East Germany and France. Robert Treichler is a journalist who has co-written a biography of Herbert Kickl. We reached him in Vienna.

NK: Robert, Herbert Kickl told his supporters that this achievement, in his view, quote, exceeds my wildest dreams, unquote. What did he and this party seize on to be able to get to this point?

ROBERT TREICHLER: It was quite an in a way, quite an aggressive campaign. They're using some terms that you hear from the extreme right. They're using terms like remigration, population exchange. They're asking for a homogenous society. They want to turn Austria into a fortress. They want to abolish the right to asylum temporarily, as the party says. So, it's quite harsh. It's not a consensual program. It's not meant to move the party towards the centre. The Freedom Party is a Right Wing populist party like others in Europe. And some of those parties, for instance, the party in France, Rassemblement National, is trying to move to the centre. The Freedom Party does not really do this and consequently the other parties do not want to form a government with them.

NK: Yeah, I want to talk about what happens next on that front in a moment. But just on the party itself, much has been made in Britain about the fact this party was founded under the leadership of an actual Nazi lawmaker in the 1950s. How prevalent are those Nazi roots and the rhetoric in the party today?

RT: It's true. It was founded by former Nazis and for many years or decades, Nazi nostalgia was part of this party. And it did change in a way ideologically because the party moved away from open antisemitism towards anti-Muslim sentiment.

NK: It doesn't sound like their tactics are very different. They've just picked a different target.

RT: You could say that. But in the party, you still find people who are in groups which, where you sing old Nazi songs for instance, just before the elections, there's been a funeral and members of the Freedom Party were present and they were singing old Nazi songs. So that still happens. But it's not really the centre of their ideology anymore.

NK: But they haven't expelled it from their party. Based on what you're saying in terms of Kickl himself. He was a speechwriter in this party making his name that way. It is quite a transition to running the party and then this victory that they are celebrating. How did he make that leap?

RT: It's true. He was a small member of the party. He worked for the party back in the '90s and he got noticed because he's got a certain talent for witty and offensive, aggressive slogans and jokes. But he was never really considered as the first man. He didn't, nobody ever thought that he could become the leader of the party because he's somehow lacking charisma. He's not a great orator himself and he's not very likeable. And this is not just me saying it, but in polls, when asked which politician do you trust, he usually comes in last. But now he's got his fans. And all that happened during the Covid-19 pandemic. During that time, the party had a leader who was more consensual, who was wearing a mask, who got vaccinated, whereas there was a big protest movement against these measures and Kickl became somehow their leader. He was at those demonstrations, he spoke there, and those masses really adored him. And all of a sudden, he was number one and the actual party leader was on the side.

NK: So, he was able to do that. But as you said a moment ago, and you're not the only one saying it, there's no path for this party to form government. So, what now? What happens next?

RT: Well, it's I wouldn't go that far. It's, there is no path. I mean, the other party's are saying we do not cooperate with Freedom Party. The Conservative Party does not say that. The Conservative Party says we will not cooperate with the Freedom Party, if Kickl wants to be a member of the government. Now, it's very unlikely that he will step back and renounce of being a member of the government if he's just won the elections. But first of all, now the other parties have to find a common program. And that is not so easy because basically they don't really have a political project. Their main project now is not to let Kickl become the chancellor of Austria. And so, the Freedom Party is not in a bad situation. They can be in opposition and wait and then think the next time they will come back even stronger.

NK: You talked about, you know, this kind of movement across Europe more broadly. What do you take from this particular victory, whether they're able to form government or not? What does it signal to you?

RT: You have a Right Wing government, a fortress and it's also the model for Kickl's ideas. In Hungary, Viktor Orbán, there is now a similar Right Wing government in the Netherlands, in France, in the parliamentary elections, the party of Marine Le Pen did not win the seats, but it came in first as far as the votes count. And what happens now in Austria is basically part of all this. All the parties have tried to beat the Freedom Party and they couldn't. The Social Democrats moved towards the left. The Conservative Party tried to be a bit more harsh towards migrants and foreigners in the policies, but nothing really worked. I think as long as migration is considered the main problem of this country and in other countries, the main problem of Europe and as long as so many people are convinced that integration is not possible and that criminality is a necessary consequence of integration, as long as the atmosphere is like that, it will be very hard to beat them.

NK: Robert, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

RT: Thank you very much.

CH: Robert Treichler is a journalist and the co-author of 'Kickl and the Destruction of Europe'. He's in Vienna.

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Masai - Dikembe Mutombo

CH: Today, NBA teams are answering questions about the imminent basketball season, but they're also paying tribute to a giant in the sport. Dikembe Mutombo, who died today at the age of 58. At seven foot two, Mr. Mutombo was a big presence on the court, known for his stellar shot blocking ability. Which earned him a number of accolades over 18 seasons in the NBA and eventually a spot in the Basketball Hall of Fame. But today, people around the league are focusing on Mr. Mutombo's gentle personality off the court and the path he paved for African players hoping to make it in the NBA like he did. Here's Toronto Raptors President Masai Ujiri talking about his friend and mentor.

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MASAI UJIRI: He did so much, so much for us, for the continent of Africa, for his people. I went to Dikembe Mutombo's hospital and in Dikembe Mutombo's hospital in Kinshasa, you go to that hospital and it doesn't even smell like a hospital. You don't understand that I grew up in hospitals. I grew up in hospitals. That's how much pride this guy had. That's how much pride he had in doing good for his people. I built accords with him in [inaudible], in his village. I spent a lot of time with him there. And what he brought, what he's brought to youth on the continent, to people in the continent we can't even imagine. You cannot even imagine what that guy's done for me and my career. Yeah, he took me by the wings in Denver, in Denver and made me grow [getting choked up] as a person. And now he's gone. He left us. I [inaudible] my family, my kids, I remember, him in my house and. But everybody, there's nobody, nobody that Mutombo did not touch. Nobody. Everything you see as big as he is, his heart was bigger. Bigger. Yeah. Today is not a good day. Not a good day for sports. For us. Honestly, in Africa it is not a good day at all. But we celebrate him and we celebrate him big, big. As he set a path for us that, you know, I don't know many people that can do it.

CH: Toronto Raptors president Masai Ujiri speaking to the media. Dikembe Mutombo died today. He was 58 years old.

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CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

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The AIH Transcript For September 30, 2024

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