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The AIH transcript for September 02, 2024

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: The pressure mounts. The families of six Israeli hostages killed in Gaza bury their dead. Protesters fill the streets demanding a deal to bring the remaining captives home -- and workers go on strike in solidarity.

CH: Get in the rings. The mayor of Paris believes it's a great idea to keep the Olympic logo affixed to the city's most famous landmark permanently. We'll reach a descendant of Gustave Eiffel, who believes otherwise.

NK: She didn't just cover stories, she uncovered them. One of Stevie Cameron's daughters remembers the investigative reporters guts, her moral compass and the time she had to defend herself against headlines claiming she was an RCMP informant.

CH: Words to and from the wise. Carol Off sat across from me in this studio for many years, listening to thousands of words go by. And now, she's written a book about six of them in particular.

NK: Carol dropped by the studio for a feature interview with me about that book -- At a Loss for Words: Conversation in an Age of Rage.

CH: And... Shirt tempered. A Denver man did not order -- and does not want -- a Donald Trump T-shirt with the slogan "chillin’ like a felon" on it. [NK chuckles] But it keeps getting a new one in the mail every couple of days, and he can't seem to stop it.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that wonders if a political shirt can affect the Pectoral College.

Part 1: Israel Strike, Paris Olympic Rings, Stevie Cameron Obit

Israel Strike

Guest: Peter Lerner

CH: Mourners lined the streets of Jerusalem today for the funeral of Hersh Goldberg-Polin. The Israeli-American was one of six hostages who were found dead in Gaza over the weekend. His mother -- Rachel Goldberg-Polin -- spoke at the service.

SOUNDCLIP

RACHEL GOLDBERG-POLIN: It's not that Hirsch was perfect, but he was the perfect son for me. For 23 years, I was privileged to have the most stunning honour to be Hirsch's mama. I'll take it and say thank you. I just wish it had been for longer.

CH: Rachel Goldberg-Polin speaking at the funeral of her son Hersh. News of the deaths of the six hostages led to large protests across Israel. It also prompted the first labour strike since the start of the war. Banks were closed, roads were blocked, and flights were delayed until a court ordered the workers back to work. Peter Lerner is with the Histadrut union. We reached him in Tel Aviv.

NK: Peter -- you know -- we just heard that moving clip from Ms. Goldberg-Polin mourning her son. How are others across the country there, how are other people reacting to his death and the deaths of all of these six hostages?

PETER LERNER: You know, it's like I've heard this a couple of times today, watched it live, and it's heart-wrenching every single time. And this is -- I think -- how most Israelis feel about what's happened over the last few days here in Israel. The importance of reaching a deal to bring home the hostages is what was behind the Histadrut's decision to launch a general strike today in order to bring them home, in order to encourage the government to put people first before politics. There is concern that that's not the situation. And listening to, listening to those very, very solemn but strong words of a mother in pain just exemplifies the importance of putting people before politics.

NK: This kind of very difficult news has come time and time again over the last several months. Does this moment, does this time feel any different to you? Are you sensing a change or not in terms of the other times Israelis have learned of the deaths of hostages?

PL: I definitely feel that it was different this time, precisely because it appeared to be that in the last few weeks, we've been close to some sort of a deal to get hostages home. And it looks like for the six victims, the story could have been a different story of Hirsch being held by his mother, not buried. And that's why -- I think -- that this case is different. Will it be a defining moment? It's still early to say. We've seen that the effect of our strike that we conducted throughout the day created a lot of tension. And the whole idea of the strike in solidarity with the families and out of concern for the economic situation that the country is in because of the war and how prolonged it is, has created the shake-up we intended it to. We've seen that in the last couple of hours, Netanyahu was made a very, very prominent case for his policy, something that we've not seen in the last almost 11 months now, but it's still concerning. We'll have to see where it moves forward.

NK: And our listeners may not know, your union strike lasted for a few hours. It ended because a court ordered it to end. You say it still very much made a difference. To pick up on the other part of what you just said there, what Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said in his statements, what did that signal to you?

PL: First of all, that the strike action itself encompassed private and public sectors. It encompassed the entire country. So in light of that and the hundreds and thousands of people that came out in protest and demonstration last night and, during the day, Netanyahu couldn't ignore it. So he had to come forward. And I think this is the power of the union when it makes decision-makers come forward and present what they, present in their case. Unfortunately, the case that we heard was the case of Philadelphi Corridor first, which is the main route between the Gaza Strip and Egypt, which Israel now controls. And there seems to be some problems in the, in the negotiations. The defence establishment has said that we can withdraw from there mostly in order to bring home hostages. But the government has decided, no, we, we need to stay there. From our perspective, it appears to be to us that what is in play is politics and not the well-being of the hostages that need to be brought home. And that is why. And that is what pushed us into action over the last 24 hours. And we've, we've not necessarily ended that strike action. We maintain that the strike action was lawful and just, and we, we may pursue that avenue again.

NK: The message from U.S. President Joe Biden -- you know -- he's saying that Benjamin Netanyahu is not doing enough to secure a hostage deal. But Biden says he believes negotiations are -- quote -- very close to an agreement. Do you think that kind of talk, but also pressure from Washington, might make a difference at the stage in a way that it has not?

PL: So our perspective is one where the hostages need to come home. They need to come home now. Eleven months is more than enough for them to be in the dark dungeons of Hamas in unbearable, inhumane conditions. Six lives cost in the last week. Hamas just this evening here announced and put out some of their propaganda material, admitting that they executed them. They owned it. This is -- you know -- unbearable for Israeli society. So the pressure that comes from the U.S. is important. But I think there is a deeper need for a much deeper understanding on the Israeli side, on the government side of the public sentiment here. Poll after poll after poll is indicating people want a deal. They want the hostages home.

NK: Netanyahu does have support within his government and from others. I hear what you're saying about the polling as well. But he does have support in other circles. You mentioned Hamas. We'll mention what the Foreign Ministry's representative was saying, telling the BBC Hamas is to blame for holding up a deal, saying -- quote -- if they really wanted a deal, why did they execute six innocent hostages? End quote. Where do you put statements and sentiments like that?

PL: They're all very valid statements to make, and it's all very true. At the end of the day -- as citizens of Israel -- we look to our government for solutions. If there was no deal on the table, that would be a different argument that we perhaps might have to have. But there appears to be a deal. The defence establishment says it can be dealt with to bring as many hostages home as possible. And the government decided the other way around. So while there may be detraction by Hamas, Israeli citizens are looking to their government for the solutions for their citizens.

NK: Peter, I appreciate your time once again. Thank you.

PL: Have a good evening.

NK: Please take care.

PL: Thank you. Bye-bye.

CH: Peter Lerner is a director general with the Histadrut union. He's in Tel Aviv.

[hip-hop beat]

Paris Olympic Rings

Guest: Savin Yeatman-Eiffel

CH: For the last couple of months, Paris has been basking in the unifying spirit of the Olympics and Paralympics. So, it makes sense that the mayor is hoping to keep the spirit alive. Although not everyone feels it makes sense to do it the way she wants to. Mayor Anne Hidalgo is proposing to leave the Olympic rings attached to the Eiffel Tower, even after the Games end. She told a newspaper, "I want the spirit of celebration to remain." But a lot of people -- including the family of the man who designed the tower, Gustave Eiffel -- are not celebrating the idea of permanently altering its façade. Savin Yeatman-Eiffel is the vice president of the Association of Descendants of Gustave Eiffel. We reached him in Paris.

NK: Savin, when you look at the Eiffel Tower right now, and you see those Olympic rings attached to it, what do you think?

SAVIN YEASTMAN-EIFFEL: It was an honour and a great pleasure to to have those rings exhibited on the Eiffel Tower for the Olympic Games. There's no denying that. We are very, very happy and very proud. But the idea that those rings are going to stay forever on the Eiffel Tower -- which is what the mayor of Paris has decided -- that's a different story. And that's where the problem is for us.

NK: You were surprised to hear this plan from the mayor?

SYE: Yes, I was. For us -- for me and the family -- there's a lot of reasons why this is very surprising. The Eiffel Tower has been built, there 's no direct connections between the tower and the Olympic Games. The tower was built in 1889, long before Pierre de Coubertin restarted the modern Olympic Games. So there's no direct connection. And the Eiffel Tower is, has become since it's creation, the symbol of Paris. And to a large extent, the symbol of France for most of the world. So, to associate a different symbol -- no matter how strong that other symbol may be -- sounds like a very strange idea to us.

NK: Mayor Hidalgo has said in the French media that she wants to keep those rings up there to, to keep -- as she put it, quote -- the festive spirit of the Games. What did you make of that reasoning?

SYE: The Games change country every four years. The next Games are going to be held in the USA. That's, that's the spirit of the Games. They're changing country and no one country can, can claim to be -- you know -- the, the owner of, of those Games. It makes the event all the more strong and powerful that it's temporary. And if we have permanently those rings, it's going to be just the poster for, for the Olympic Games. And I love the Olympic Games. They're great, but they are just two different symbols.

NK: You mentioned the history of the tower, and it is undoubtedly a symbol, the symbol, perhaps, of, of Paris. And certainly, visitors to France love it. Some Parisians and some others in France don't have the same kind of relationship with the Eiffel Tower that you or other visitors might have. So could it be that the, the rings on this tower might come to be beloved by some -- if disliked intensely by others?

SYE: We'll see, but my, my feeling, and I a lot of people have called us, have emailed us, and they're, they're against the idea. So I would, I would be surprised. I think -- on the contrary -- there is a very big, strong love affair between Parisians and the Eiffel Tower. All the Parisians also have their own story with the Eiffel Tower when they went there, the way they see it from, from their flats. And all the visitors that came to France and went to the Eiffel Tower, they have fond memories. And I don't think all those people would be very happy with the idea that we're going to change the design, the original design of the Eiffel Tower that was created by Gustave Eiffel and his team. It's so iconic and such a strong, pure shape that to, to, to modify it permanently, I don't think really serves the, the tower. If you look at the, the symbols, Olympic rings from the front, different pretty interesting on one of the on one of the sides. But if you go sideways, they're just hanging in the air, and it totally destabilizes the whole perfect, pure design of the tower.

NK: You do have support. As you say, there's a petition online right now. As we speak, there are more than 17,000 signatures on that petition. How likely is it, do you think you will get the mayor to change her mind? I mean, I, I've heard quotes where she said it's, the decision is mine and this is the decision I want to make.

SYE: Well, she's a little bit like that. And I hope that this is a decision that she made a bit quickly in the excitement of those Olympic Games, which are a very good moment -- indeed -- for, for Paris and for all sports lovers. But -- you know -- the Eiffel Tower is an old lady. She's been there for 125 years. And you cannot take a decision like this to, to modify it for, for, forever. Because that's a problem. Keep it for one year, for two years if you want. But changing it forever, that's taking it a step a bit too far. And I think it's not just one, a one-person decision. The Eiffel Tower -- indeed -- has returned since 1979 to the control of the Tunnel of Paris. But that comes with a lot of responsibility related to, to maintain it, to repair it and to, to respect the, the original creation of Gustave Eiffel.

NK: As It Happens -- our show -- actually broadcasts on World Radio Paris. So if the mayor is listening -- and we are sure she listens -- what would you say to her?

SYE: Simple, by simple reasoning, I think those kind of decisions must take time. And I hope that the mayor will realize she was a bit too positive, too excited about this idea. But such a decision affects not only the physical Eiffel Tower, but all the Parisians who will see, who will look at the tower, all the visitors. And there's a long history behind the Eiffel Tower. It's a very powerful symbol. So I don't think you, you can just one person can make such a decision. And if she's really so strong about the idea, then why doesn't she submit it to, to the, the Parisians for vote, for example.

NK: And those who've had the opportunity to visit Paris and love it and have felt the magic of that city, that, that quote that the festive spirit to keep it -- I mean -- would it be lost if the rings weren't there?

SYE: Well, the rings, the rings can be put anywhere else in Paris, in the park. I mean, there's lots of places where you can put those rings, and I'm not against keeping the spirit alive, and I'm not against the rings per se. It's great memories to keep, memories to keep. But then -- you know -- we, we, we carry on. You cannot artificially maintain the image of the games forever. It's such a beautiful town of Paris.

NK: Savin, thank you very much for your time.

SYE: It was my pleasure.

CH: Savin Yeatman-Eiffel is the vice-president of the Association of Descendants of Gustave Eiffel. We reached him in Paris.

[hip-hop beat]

Stevie Cameron Obit

Guest: Tassie Cameron

CH: During her time as a Globe and Mail political columnist in Ottawa, Stevie Cameron did not hold back. And as she told this program in 1994, that sometimes landed her in hot water -- especially during the Brian Mulroney years.

SOUNDCLIP

STEVIE CAMERON: This government was very, very good at fighting fires. They, they stomped on the media. If reporters got uppity, I know, I have friends in the media who, whose spouses were fired. So there was, reporters who went after the government were severely punished. My own husband's reputation was dragged through the mud, and I had to endure that. It was --

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Because of your column?

SC: Sure. Because of the stuff I was writing. Very nasty personal attacks.

CH: From 1994, that was Stevie Cameron speaking to Michael Enright on this program about her book, On the Take: Crime, Corruption and Greed in the Mulroney Years. Ms. Cameron -- an award-winning investigative journalist and best-selling author -- died on Saturday. She was 80. Among her biggest stories was the so-called "Airbus Affair" -- which eventually saw her defending herself from accusations that she was an RCMP informant. She also wrote two books on serial killer Robert Pickton. And in 2012, she was awarded the Order of Canada -- not just for her journalism, but also for her extensive humanitarian work in Toronto. Tassie Cameron is Stevie Cameron's daughter. We reached her in Toronto.

NK: Tassie -- as you listen to that -- I wonder what it brings up for you in terms of that time for your family? Do you remember what your mother said during that time?

TASSIE CAMERON: Oh, I remember it very well. It's very eerie hearing her voice like that. Very beautiful -- actually -- to hear her.

NK: She has a beautiful voice. I was noting that.

TC: She does [chuckling]. She does have a beautiful voice. No, I remember that time very well. And -- yeah -- I think what I, when I hear her speaking, it just reminds me about -- I mean -- she had such guts, my mother. Like, she, she just was such a courageous person. And she would just say it how she saw it. And she wasn't afraid. And that's -- I think -- one of the reasons she was such a remarkable journalist.

NK: People know -- you know -- Stevie Cameron for her investigative work, those guts that you mentioned, that, that, those difficult stories. But they may not know -- and many of us are learning -- that, that she really got her start as a food, travel and lifestyle reporter, and then decided to make the switch. How did that happen?

TC: She loved food. [NK chuckles] And she loved, she loved interior design, and she loved all these -- I mean -- I guess they used to call them women's issues. She loved all that. But she was running, I believe she was running the lifestyle section at the Ottawa Citizen. And there was a fellowship, a southern fellowship that was offered for six weeks to sort of try being in the kind of political game at the paper. And she applied for it. And -- I think -- she loved it. She wanted to be in that game. You know, her, her access through women's issues, through the interior designers and the hairdressers and the kind of, it gave her some, some incredible sources that she was able to use in her first few big stories. So it was a sort of wonderful transition.

NK: What were some of the big stories that you remember coming out of that, those kinds of connections and transition?

TC: Well, the one that comes to mind is Gucci Gate. With the closets that were built for the many pairs of Gucci loafers that the prime minister at the time -- I guess -- owned. That was one that I sort of remember thinking -- well -- that's a, that's a fascinating combination of lifestyle and politics. [NK laughs] You know, but there were, there were many -- again -- many sources of hers that came from her time as a lifestyles journalist, that she, very trusted people in a very small town, which Ottawa really kind of is, that she spoke to on many occasions for these stories.

NK: Brian Mulrooney, his government, the Airbus affair, corruption in the government were certainly -- you know -- among -- if not, you know -- the biggest stories she covered, as you well know. But as she covered that difficult story. And certainly, the Fifth Estate did; she, she worked in tandem with them at points as well. In 2004, all of that work led to, to her being put in the spotlight and being accused of being a secret RCMP informant. And the Globe and Mail -- a paper she worked for in the past -- ran several articles -- front page, in some cases. In 2005, the RCMP said she was not an informant. But what do you remember her telling you about that time? Because her credibility, her ethics were being called into question.

TC: Yes, I remember that time with exquisite horror. It was terrible. It was a terrible, terrible time. Probably the worst moment of my mom's career, certainly. And, and to be accused by her own beloved paper of that kind of breach was very, very painful. Anybody who's worked with my mom or knew my mom knew her sense of integrity. And so the blessing throughout all that -- actually -- was that, that everybody stood by her, her closest friends, her, her colleagues. And I think that was balm to her soul.

NK: She was a guest on a show that our CBC news colleague Susan Ormiston hosted during that time, and she interviewed your mother asking about those allegations and asking directly whether she had ever crossed a line. Here's how your mother responded.

SOUNDCLIP

SC: I never crossed the line. I think vendetta is such a loaded word. Agenda is such a loaded word. Obsession is such a loaded word. And I ask myself, if Harvey Cashore at the Fifth Estate and I hadn't chased that story and chased that story, that story never would have been told.

NK: We were just saying -- the producer and I -- we got goosebumps listening to that. [TC laughs] The guts, the fearlessness. You mentioned, she he she really defended herself quite strongly in that interview, despite -- you know -- what you're saying in the fact that just her heart was clearly breaking on the inside.

TC: Yes.

NK: She was very tenacious.

TC: Yes, she was.

NK: In making it clear what a journalist's job is and what she was doing. What do you take away from hearing that now?

TC: Oh -- I mean, I, again -- I just think of her courage. And -- I mean -- I remember that day. I remember the, the story on the front page of the gGlobe. Andus all sitting there in shock. And, but I just remember her, her bravery and just her saying -- well -- it's not true. And we're gonna, we're going to fight it. And thank God I have a lot of people who believe in me.

NK: What was she like as a mom?

TC: Oh my God, she was the best. She was the best. She was a remarkable mother. And -- you know -- I think what we've been so moved by this weekend is the outpouring of people from around the world -- honestly -- who, who my mom helped, who she gave advice to, people who stayed in our house for three months that I've never even heard of. People who she helped them learn how to host a dinner party or learn how to fold napkins or set them up with their husband. Or -- you know -- the kind of huge reach she had, beyond her close family was, is really so surprisingly meaningful at this point.

NK: Tessie, I appreciate your time. My condolences to you and your family, again. Please take care.

TC: Thank you so much. Thanks for doing this.

CH: Tassie Cameron is Stevie Cameron's daughter. She's in Toronto. Stevie Cameron died on Saturday. She was 80.

[instrumental]

‘Chillin’ Like A Felon’

CH: First of all, the shirts… The shirts are not accurate. But what really bothers me is that they don't rhyme. A short "i" does not rhyme with a short "e". Plus, Donald Trump doesn't wear sunglasses! We learned that during the eclipse! Sorry, I've… I've been on vacation for a bit. I forgot that I have to explain what I'm talking about, which is this.

SOUNDCLIP

EVAN KRUGEL: This guy named Rick does his fair share of online shopping.

RICK: And this one's not in the usual plastic bag that it typically is.

EK: But recently, Rick has been getting something in the mail.

RICK: I did not order these.

EK: That really isn't his style.

RICK: It's the same thing. The Chillin' Like a Felon.

EK: Jerseys of former President Donald Trump.

RICK: Let me add to the pile.

EK: That are beginning to stack up in his Denver living room.

RICK: Here's the additional ones that I have.

CH: 9News Denver reporter Evan Krugel introducing us to "Rick" -- just "Rick", no… No last name given. So Rick is sort of like Bono or Adele -- I guess -- but instead of being a popular singer, he gets T-shirts he doesn't want in the mail -- piles them. Now, you might have missed it when Rick told us what's written on the shirts. Studio, please enhance!

SOUNDCLIP

RICK: [slowed] Chillin' Like a Felon

CH: Yeah, Rick is being inundated with shirts depicting Donald Trump wearing sunglasses and a Hawaiian shirt, floating in a inflatable tube, holding a can of beer. And in bright pink letters, the shirts read, Chillin' Like a Felon. Rick has received many of these shirts, which is unusual considering he has never ordered even one of them, and he does not like Donald Trump. This shirtstorm mysteriously began in July. And then -- recently -- a clue: a packing slip revealed that one of the shirts had been ordered from TikTok. It turns out people are trying to return their Chillin' Like a Felon shirts to TikTok -- but for some reason, they're showing up at Rick's house. And -- you know -- I would return it, too. As I said, it's inaccurate: Donald Trump doesn't drink beer, and he is not chillin'. He is never chillin'. And chillin' does not rhyme with felon! "Dwellin'" would work, I guess. "Smellin'". "Yellin'" would rhyme and be accurate. Anyway, good luck to Rick. He did nothing to deserve this -- and he's really getting the shirt end of the stick.

[pop]

Part 2: Carol Off Book

Carol Off Book

Guest: Carol Off

CH: Carol Off sat across from me in this studio for years. I watched her talk and ask questions -- and listen to the words people said. Thousands upon thousands of words. And something that one guest said to her about words really stuck with her. This is British author Robert Macfarlane talking to Carol about The Lost Words: A Spell Book --which is about descriptors for plants and animals and birds going out of use.

SOUNDCLIP

ROBERT MACFARLANE: To name something -- I think -- is to, to know it a little better, to see it a little more clearly and maybe to care for it a bit more.

CH: Carol has now written her own book about words -- Specifically, political terminology. It's called At a Loss for Words: Conversation in an Age of Rage. And she sat down with Nil in the As It Happens studio to talk about it.

NK: Carol, welcome back.

CAROL OFF: This is so bizarre. I can't tell you. [chuckling] Thank you for the welcome. I'm still sort of getting used to being in this room again and on this side of the table.

NK: Well, I'm very glad you're here, but there was a moment for me watching you coming back into the studio, it's emotional.

CO: Did you see that I almost sat down in your chair?! [NK chuckles] And you thought --

NK: No --

CO: Hey, lady! Get over there!

NK: Never, never. You could stand here with me any time.

CO: Thank you.

NK: Any time. It's your home. It certainly feels like home to me now, but it will always be your home.

CO: It's your home. You own it, man. You own this.

NK: That's Very kind. This, this is about you and your, and your wonderful book. But in terms of the timing, I know this idea has been swirling in your mind for, for a long time -- these words in particular. So why did you feel this was the moment people needed to read it?

CO: It's taken two years to write the book. And it really, but it was incubating when I was here, when I was sitting in your chair. And realizing that there were so many things that were so alarming that were going on -- especially during the Trump era. But even before that. And so, what I found was that people were so angry with each other. This, we now are so, this rancour is so familiar, we don't even, even talk about it. But -- at the time -- that was just growing then. And what I found is that -- increasingly -- people couldn't have civilized conversations. They didn't just disagree with their opponents, they hated their opponents. And then I also became aware that people were giving up on some really important ideas of civil society. And then when we saw during the freedom -- so-called freedom convoy -- when freedom became a word about doing whatever you want and no longer having obligations to society. I realized that something seriously had gone wrong.

NK: But people have always tried to manipulate words. What's different now?

CO: These are specific words of civil society that have that go back to -- in some cases, like the words freedom and democracy -- go back to the Greeks and Romans. What had shifted in this case -- especially with the word freedom -- was that there was this word that meant -- like -- Robben Island and Martin Luther King Junior and being liberated from Auschwitz. Freedom was some, was the clarion call of people who were oppressed, people who didn't have what they needed. It was what Franklin Delano Roosevelt talked about in his speeches about we have to have, be free from want. People aren't free if they don't have enough to eat and don't have a roof over their heads during, during the depression. And so, this important word became the first one that I wrote about. And what I thought is that we need to reclaim this word from those who were in January 6th, storming the Capitol in Washington, saying that they're going to liberate their country. And we needed to take it back from those who were giving out this message of, of anger and rage and saying we don't have to care about others anymore. We don't need to wear a mask. We don't need to do things for others. And then wrapping that in a flag -- a Canadian flag -- and calling it patriotism. I thought, we're taking this word back, and I'm going to write about that.

NK: Freedom and democracy you've mentioned. Those are two of the six words that this book focuses on. The others are truth, woke, choice, and taxes. Those first two -- though, democracy and freedom, increasingly the latter -- is very central to Kamala Harris's presidential campaign. Beyonce and Kendrick Lamar's "Freedom" is the soundtrack for her campaign. In large part, it played at the, the DNC in Chicago. And that, that idea of freedom -- her take on it -- is, is certainly a theme in her advertising. We want to play a little bit of one of her ads for our listeners.

[sc].

[hip-hop beat]

ANNOUNCER: Fascism. We conquered it. [heartbeat monitor chirp] The moon.

HUSTON: Eagle has landed.

ANNOUNCER: Landed on it. The future. Building it. Freedom.

PEOPLE: Freedom!

ANNOUNCER: Nobody loves it more. [fireworks and cheering] And we fight for it. ["Freedom" by Beyonce and Kendrick Lamar/pop].

NK: What do you hear there, Carol? What kind of freedom is the Harris campaign pitching to Americans?

CO: Oh my God! I hear Beyonce. [NK chuckles] You know, this campaign, when Kamala came storming out of the shadows -- more or less -- of being the vice president and took the stage, and the first thing out of her mouth -- practically -- was freedom. We're taking this word back. I thought, oh my God! I, this was -- to me -- this was, this was extraordinary. Because my greatest concern writing this book is I thought -- well -- people are going to think I'm a Pollyanna. And suddenly, [chuckling] Kamala walked on stage, and weeks before the book came out, and I thought, I can't believe this. This is exactly what I was in my dreams was hoping might happen.

NK: It's been interesting as well -- though -- to see the shift -- and The Washington Post was reporting on this recently -- in the Democratic Party, specifically from when Biden was running from a focus on democracy -- that other word you focus on. He would mention freedom, but democracy was the focus. Why that shift?

CO: Democracy is -- and I write about this -- is a very elastic word that. I mean, Stalin said that he had authoritarian democracy. That you can, you can make it whatever you want. And I think it was too amorphous. Everybody gets freedom. And what's fascinating is that the few that the Republicans, Trump rarely mentions freedom. They did not use, they've lost that word. That was the, the word of republicanism. That was the word of conservatism in the United States, the central idea. And now, they've lost it because they don't seem to think we should be free to choose when and if we're going to have children. They don't seem to think we should be free to choose the library books we want to read. They don't seem to think we should be free to live in a society where you have health care, where you don't have to decide, your kids can go to school without being shot. Your kids can be who they want. That we can be -- as Walz said -- none of your damn business. We're going to live our lives as we want to. So you can be free to be who you want. This used to be the domain of the, of the, of republicanism, of conservatism. And to see it taken back, all of it, not just a part of it, not just their version of it, but the whole idea of freedom has been reclaimed by the left in this huge way.

NK: Choice is another word -- as we've mentioned -- you take a look at in this book. You write about the, the word in the context of abortion -- of course -- but also in terms of the choices the women in your own family have had available to them. And it's one of several personal anecdotes and really beautiful moments in the book. What did choice mean to your mother compared to you?

CO: My mother didn't have choices. Well, she had limited choices because she chose her husband, but, and she happened to get a really good husband. [NK chuckles] My father was a wonderful man for her. But beyond that, her era had so few choices. And she couldn't choose, she couldn't get credit if she wanted the credit. She couldn't have bought a house if she wanted. She couldn't do any of the things that you and I now just take for granted as women. Those things weren't available to her. She was also a Roman Catholic. And so, there were limits in her own religion as to what freedoms she had for reproductive rights. But no one had reproductive rights. It didn't even exist. I mean, it wasn't even, it was starting to -- when I was a teenager -- starting to develop in the United States, these ideas. But it was not until the late 1980s before we had reproductive choice in this country. It just, it's a defining thing in my, my development as a woman. And my development as a person was to see what it was to come from, what my mother had so limited in her choices, and to be where I am now, where I'm with women who have so many choices. And now, to see those choices threatened.

NK: You write about a protest -- a caravan in the '70s. Pierre Elliott Trudeau was prime minister. Many women were not pleased with what he was and was not doing in terms of access to abortion. And this is a story -- I mean -- even as journalists, even different age ranges in -- you know -- in, on our team -- as they were -- as we were -- reading this, were surprised how why do we not know more about this, this event. So it was really fascinating to read about it. So women get together, some of them in cars, many, many buses. They're angry, and they're making themselves known. They drive to Ottawa to press their case. There was a documentary here on CBC done by Karen Wells about the abortion caravan. It aired on Sunday Edition back in 2018. We'll play a little bit of it.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: In Ottawa today, the chant that closed the House of Commons.

WOMEN: Women are dying. Abortion laws kill.

REPORTER: Women demonstrators who favour free abortions forced a half-hour adjournment of the

Commons. Officials said they couldn't recall any similar incident in the history of the Canadian Parliament.

WOMAN: It's a women's right to control their own lives. It's a woman's right to control her own body. Every child should be a wanted child, and every mother should be a willing mother. Each of us must have that control over our own lives.

WOMAN #2: I don't want nobody else's responsibility...

[fades].

NK: I mean, they could, they couldn't get a meeting -- certainly -- or an answer from Trudeau, right? What is it like to hear that?

CO: I get weepy hearing that again. Just, it was -- well -- to the Canadian government under that of Pierre Elliot Trudeau were very, they were all, many of them in the cabinet were Roman Catholics. And John Turner said, I've written, I rewritten the law, which was not a rewrite. It was just the same law we'd had in Canada for 100 years. Which was, it criminalized abortion. It criminalized the right to choose. And so, these women, they started off -- I think -- a half-dozen of them in their, in their vans and cars and they started driving. They're going to go meet with Pierre Elliot Trudeau and tell him what they thought. And they're driving across the country, and then they get to Winnipeg. And then there's like 50 of them. They get to Toronto, there's 200 of them. And they get to Ottawa, and there's 500 of them. And they, and they say, we're going to meet the prime minister or somebody -- a cabinet minister. Nobody, nobody showed up to meet them. They would not meet them. And they got into the gallery and they chained themselves to chairs and started jumping up and demanding freedoms. It was extraordinary. And, but they shut down Parliament. But -- in the end, I mean -- the newspaper was, all the, all the newspapers, all the coverage was about hysterical women screaming what they want. And they finally got to meet Trudeau. They snagged him at a press conference, and they said, don't you understand -- Prime Minister -- women are dying. And he, he looked at them and he said, so? The arrogance just was gobsmacking.

NK: You also write about those who are concerned about the word choice in particular, whether that's the right word, whether it's still useful as this issue comes back. And then -- you know -- is reversed in many ways in the United States. So, is choice still the right word?

CO: No, no, I don't, I don't think choice is the right word. I think it's, and the person who convinced me of that was Margaret Atwood. I sat with her in her garden and said, I want to talk about choice because they're actually using, the handmaids are showing up at all these pro-reproductive rights, pro-abortion rallies. And so, how do you feel about the fact that you've obviously, you've really captured the zeitgeist, even if it's decades later? She said, I don't, I don't want to capture the zeitgeist. I wish they, this wasn't an important symbol. But she was the one who said this choice word is frivolous. It's a branding word. It's a marketing. So, and when it was first introduced, it was because they knew people would be so uncomfortable with words like abortion. I think what is, what's evolving, I'm seeing this all through the movement is that we're talking about reproductive rights, we're talking about reproductive justice and that choice is something a lot of women who are seeking abortions or need that, that care don't have choices. But -- at the same time -- I felt that when I was finally able to get access to birth control or when I was able to get access to all kinds of things that my mother didn't have access to, that I felt that it had given me choices, had given me options. So I think there's still a place for the word choice, but I don't think that that's the finding concept of that time.

NK: You likely recognize the voice that you're hearing. It is -- of course -- the voice of the journalist -- the author who sat behind the mic I now stand behind -- Carol Off. She is here in the As It Happens studio to tell us about her latest book, At a Loss for Words: Conversation in an Age of Rage. And -- you know, Carol -- whether it's, whether we're talking about the U.S. election or access to abortion -- the debate about abortion still -- or certainly another story that is -- I think -- without a doubt, a defining story of our time -- you know -- the, the Hamas attack on Israel on October 7th, Israel's war in Gaza that has followed, the devastation that has followed. All of those stories, journalists -- obviously, as you well know -- play an essential role in helping to bring information and clarity at a time where words are weaponized. What do you see as the role of the journalist at this moment -- particularly when we talk about the war?

CO: I think the the role of the journalist is to cultivate a place where we listen to each other. And that we think other people have valid points of view. And I'm not talking about the fringe. People who, who are, don't want to be a part of the conversation, who just want to be part of the violence. People who are, who support Hamas, I don't consider them part of the conversation. So, it is the big group of people in the middle who are worn down, who are confused, who are tired of all this rancour, who want to have an opportunity to talk, who want to hear people actually listening to each other. And I think that that's the role of journalism now -- and As It Happens in specific -- is to cultivate those conversations. When I say that subtitle is Conversation in an Age of Rage is that conversation is, is the new radicalism. And so, that -- I think -- that's where we take this now. We just ignore those, those that noise on the outsides, those people who, I call them the agents of chaos -- the rage farmers -- and start focusing on what we want to do as societies, which is to start building bridges between each other.

NK: The ways we can come together. Those are the conversations that always speak to me as a, as a listener, as an interviewer as well. You close your book with a word that I think a lot of people can agree on -- in that they agree that they dislike it and what it means -- [chuckle] taxes. Why did you want to end there?

CO: Actually, taxes is -- to me -- the most important word in the book because it symbolises our commitment to our societies. And so, that citizen equals voter equals taxpayer. That's the formula. We are all three. And so, the demonizing of the word taxes by politicians to, to make us think that taxes is a dirty word and they're stealing your money, is part of that agenda of separating us from our sense of, of society, saying the government is a dirty word. These, these people are manipulating you. There's a deep state coming to get you. And so, taxes -- to me -- was something that it represents our obligation. It's, it's the price we pay to live in a civil society. We need to go back to this idea that we need to take care of everybody. And the way to do that is by talking to each other, conversations, but not being afraid to make your contribution to the society.

NK: You know, we talked about the, the, the personal accounts and the family connections to these words. And your father's life in particular -- and a result, as a result, yours -- was changed by an accident he had as a young man working in Winnipeg and what happened after. Just tell us a little bit about what happened.

CO: Well, he was working in a meat processing plant, and, and he was he was barely out of his teens and probably going to work there for the rest of his life, but he was working on a giant saw, and his hand got caught in the saw, and he lost the entirety of his right thumb. And so he was then rendered unemployable for work that required that. But was interesting because society was just changing. All the things I'm describing about how we moved into a society of a just society, a fair society, where people were taken care of by a social safety net. My father was able to get very good health care, and he also was at a time when there were unions just starting in Winnipeg. And they made sure that he was given a lump sum. But he was required to use a large part of it for an education. And he got a chartered accountancy degree, and he became a tax man. [both laugh] And so, I used to, all my growing up with him, I would look at that, that stump that was of his thumb, and I'd think, my God, that one little accident and everything we are -- all of our lives -- was because of an accident. And then, I realized, no, it wasn't. My father was able to take care of us. And my mother had healthy, seven healthy babies. And we all got an education, not because of something that was just a happenstance. It was because of this, this country of Canada that we live in that took care of us.

NK: When you talk about the weaponization of these words and others, and obviously you take hard right figures to task in this book, but is it really just a partisan problem? I mean, we talked about Pierre Elliot Trudeau and the criticisms there. There are those on the hard left that certainly manipulate words as well.

CO: No, I, I think that what's happened is the, in the shrinking political space of the left, they have pulled into, into a silo and said, no, we're not going to talk anymore. We're going to stay here. And so, I think it's, I would like to think we could persuade the left out back into the conversation. But I focus on the right in this because the amount of power and money and political office that's behind the right is extraordinary. These extremely powerful billionaires who are now manipulating the agendas, who are manipulating people and making money from it. And the other thing is, is that -- you know -- I know you did this wonderful special when Brian Mulroney died.

NK: Thank you.

CO: And, and so, we were sort of [chuckle] all of us nostalgic for that era of Progressive Conservatives when conservatism still was part of this kind of conversation of democracy and, and society and caring for each other and hadn't become what -- I think -- the right has now become, which is this us against them, this populism that says that, if you're either with me because I'm the, I'm the great person who's going to deliver everything for you. Or you with the elites, you're with the globalists, you're with the woke extremists. And I'm nostalgic for an era of the kind of conservatism that I grew up with. And maybe, maybe I'm naive about that, but I think we're still capable of having that.

NK: Ultimately -- you know -- this is, this is a warning, right? This book is a warning about the way language -- political language -- is being used. It's threats to civil society. What should we all do about it? Not just journalists, but all of our listeners -- anyone at home -- what can they do?

CO: We need to be extremely conscious of the language that's around us, how words are being used, how they're being used against us, how they're being weaponized. To be conscious of when people use terms like gatekeepers or globalists or deep state, or the woke mindset, or woke radicals. This, and woke is -- of course -- one of the words I use, which is that what's happening with this word is it's a, it's a vector to bring odious ideas into the public space. With us thinking that we're talking about wokeness, we're talking about racism. We're not talking about misogyny, we're not talking about genderphobia or Islamophobia. We're talking about woke. Well, if you pick woke apart, I'm talking about anti-woke. It's a code word for just allowing racist, misogynistic, phobic thoughts and ideas into the public space and they get away with it. So listen to how woke is being used. Listen to how democracy is being used. Listen to how freedom is being used. And own these words because they're your words. Don't let them have them.

NK: Carol Off, it's an honour to stand where you have stood, but it's certainly an honour and a pleasure to talk to you today. What a, what a treat to have you in the studio. Thank you, Carol.

CO: Thank you.

CH: That was -- of course -- the great Carol Off, talking to Nil about her new book, At a Loss for Words: Conversation in an Age of Rage. It's published by Penguin Random House. And we're going to post a longer version of that conversation as a bonus episode of our podcast. You can find that in any of the usual podcast places or by visiting our website at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[rock]

Part 3: Cell Phones In Schools, VA Lemonade Stand

German Elections

CH: Germany's Alternative für Deutschland hit a new popularity peak in yesterday's regional elections. But the anti-immigration party is having trouble making friends. The AfD came first in the state of Thuringia. It's the first state win for a far-right party since the Second World War. But the party didn't secure an outright majority. And that has deputy leader Beatrix von Storch and her colleagues looking for a partner who will help them govern. But as Ms von Storch told the BBC's Owen Bennett-Jones, that's proving easier said than done.

SOUNDCLIP

BEATRIX VON STORCH: They have all made already quite clear that, that they are not willing to, to talk to us, but we will see. I still believe in democracy. I still hope -- of course -- that something is possible.

OWEN BENNETT-JONES: And do you understand why the other parties are so hostile to you? I mean -- you know -- it's because they're scared of some of your views and associations, isn't it?

BVS: They've been attacking us all over the last few years. They were attacking us the whole time for being hard-wing extremists because of our way of addressing the asylum process. And now -- two days ahead of the election -- they start to do what we always said had to be done.

OBJ: But it's not just the immigration issue. I mean --

BVS: Sure.

OBJ: I take your point that the immigration issue is important and people have been shifting in your direction, no doubt. But there are also these echoes of the Nazi past -- aren't there -- with your leader in Thuringia, the state where you've done very well. Björn Höcke has been convicted for using illegal Nazi slogans. And, I mean, you can see why that terrifies people.

BVS: Yeah -- I mean -- it terrifies the people so much that he's the number one elected leader. I mean, our party in that, in Thuringia came in first.

OBJ: No, sure. But I mean for the mainstream, that's even more frightening that this is winning lots of support.

BVS: No, it just shows that this kind of, of -- you know -- attacking our people is no longer functioning. It never functioned. And specifically in Thuringia, it does not. People -- especially in the eastern part of Germany -- they are very clear about -- you know -- about political campaigning about lying in the media, about -- you know -- focusing on issues who are not, of no interest to the people. And I just don't care if some judge says you use three words other politicians have used before. People are just laughing at it. And they just don't care. And we can see that in the result of, of the election.

OBJ: Yeah -- well -- the three words were everything for Germany, which was a slogan used in the Nazi era, wasn't it?

BVS: Well, no one ever knew. I mean, all the other politicians who came up with a slogan, they did not know this has been -- you know -- examined very clearly by his, by his lawyer. People just didn't know. And people don't care about it. The people in Thuringia, they are tired of this. They have real problems and they want that policy is addressing their problems. And if you keep talking -- you know -- and trying to, to, to explain that this guy used these three words, this means fascism is in a rise and they will install the, the, the Fourth Reich then it's just ridiculous.

CH: That was Beatrix von Storch -- the deputy leader of Germany's far-right Alternative für Deutschland -- speaking to the BBC's Owen Bennett-Jones.

[R&B]

Cell Phones In Schools

Guest: Rene Jansen in de Wal

CH: Summer's over. Students are about to go back to school. And in Ontario -- for the first time -- they'll be heading back into classrooms without their phones. At least, that's the rule on paper. The provincial government announced the ban last spring, and it's about to come into effect. Or it's supposed to. But Rene Jensen in de Wal says there's still a lot to be done before that ban becomes a reality. He's the President of the Ontario English Catholic Teachers Association. And we reached him in Windsor, Ontario.

NK: Rene, this is, this kind of a ban is something that your union has pushed for for years -- for six years, even. Other teachers certainly have, have wanted something like this. You have a ban now. What's the issue with it?

RENE JANSEN IN DE WAL: Well, it's a good idea. It's more about execution. So there's a challenge. As you say, it is something we've wanted for a number of years. But if you want to do something like this -- if it's really important -- you need to make sure you collaborate, and you cooperate with people so you get it done right. Everybody's had the kind of boss who, who wants to get something done but doesn't really understand the work and isn't very good at implementing the change. And the implementation doesn't happen well if everyone is not on the same page. And so, there's communication issues, there's training issues, there's some of the issues we're not sure the government understands the nuances of. And we want to get those right. Because if this is important -- and teachers do believe it's important, they've been trying to deal with it for years -- we'd like to get it right, not just announce it.

NK: Ontario's Education Minister Jill Dunlop spoke last week trying to explain how -- in her view -- this ban should be enforced. Let's listen to that.

SOUNDCLIP

JILL DUNLOP: In grades Kindergarten to Grade 6, cell phones will not be used in the classroom at all. They'll be turned off and left out of view. Grade 7 to Grade 12, cell phones can be used during break time. But during instruction time, they can still be used for instructional purposes if the teacher requires that. But if the teacher's asking cell phones to be put away or turned off -- if students do not abide by those rules -- they'll be asked to put the cell phone in a safe space in the classroom. And if students do not follow that, they'll be asked to take it to the principal's office.

NK: I can imagine teachers were putting their hands up pretty quickly after hearing that. But what kinds of questions and concerns did they have for you?

RJIDW: So teachers have been dealing with cell phones for quite, quite a while. And I want to differentiate. There's a difference between distractions -- cell phones as a distraction and cell phones as a learning device which teachers have incorporated in most creative ways in a lot of places. The challenge is if you say to a student, you've got to put it away, and the student doesn't want to do that, or if you put it in -- quote -- a safe space and it gets dropped or lost or whatever, there's all these points of conflict. No parent wants to lose an expensive phone. No teacher wants to be involved in that. We also have some very fundamental issues right now. We have more behavioural issues from average students. We have violence in the classes because there's been so many cuts that there isn't enough time. And behaviour and violence are a form of communication. And so, if a child gets a point where you asked for the phone and they escalate, it's not really their fault if we didn't spend enough time and we don't have the resources to make sure they're in the right state of mind to be learning. And so, if it escalates and becomes a conflict, we're having problems with kids throwing chairs and being violent in class and swearing and stuff. We're having a hard time enforcing that. We're adding a flashpoint on top of everything else at this time. So it's not as if the idea isn't good. And it's not that we don't agree with it. There's a lot to be discussed about how does that work in a real school?

NK: Why -- Rene -- did that collaboration not happen before this announcement? If you've been pushing for this for years, and then there was announcement -- I mean -- one would imagine that there were some conversations. They didn't speak to you at all?

RJIDW: Not to the teachers association. I had not a word. Now, I will give this current minister credit. She reached out already, having just taken over. So we're glad to see that. But there was no work through the summer with us. There was no conversation or consultation. And we're still asking for that. If we're going to do it, we should do it well. And that takes all of us working together. And that includes students and parents. I have friends or parents, they're going, what are the rules? I go, I don't know. From school to school -- board to board -- it's very different. It depends on administrators, how experienced they are in handling those sorts of things. Parents are asking, students are asking, teachers are asking. And we're a day away from starting school. And they announced this last April. So there's a gap.

NK: If you were sitting at the table with the minister today, and putting a specific list together, what would you put on that list based on what teachers are telling you to bring in the kind of, of ban that would work and would help -- in your view?

RJIDW: There needs to be a lot of work with the students who are the most prblematic. You know, everybody has seen distraction of phones in their workplaces and at school. Now, some of these kids have addiction issues, too. They can be addicted to video games or to the social media. Social media companies to spend a lot of time dealing with these sorts of things. There can be reasons why a kid doesn't give it up. Or it could be social anxiety. Or it could be any number of reasons. There are some parents who don't want their students to give it up because they want to be able to reach them instantly. So there's a lot of things we need to talk through.

NK: You mentioned social media. The new directive also talks about social media and says it's going to be removed from school networks. Is that something that's going to happen -- in your view?

RJIDW: Well, they've been trying to do that for a decade, too. That's not, this is not new. A lot of the announcements the government made aren't actually new. It's something we were already trying to do, but it hasn't been done effectively. And there's a real challenge. School boards are really tight on resources. They don't have big, huge I.T. departments, and they're trying to stay ahead of smart kids. You try and find a way to shut a kid's access off to whatever it is that they're really hooked on getting on to. They're going to find ways around it. And so, you're always chasing that game. School boards have a real challenge meeting something that sounds that simple.

NK: Given -- Rene -- all of the issues you outlined earlier in our conversation, why do you think Ontario's government is focusing on this measure right now?

RJIDW: Well, it's a bigger issue because it's exacerbated by the problems we have here. So what's happening is if we wanted to talk about world-class education -- which we had six years ago, and this government has eroded -- then we should be talking about world-class education systems, which we're not. I can't speak to the government's intent, but from our perspective, it looks like a distraction from the cuts. And we're going to spend our time on this when we don't provide the supports for kids. Lots of average kids are having trouble now because of the learning loss, and the social anxiety stuff is still there from COVID. And we have not been given enough resources to deal with that, too. My other colleagues is mentioning it for myself. Sure, my teachers are, it's, it's hard for them. When you're in a classroom with class sizes that are too large, and you look a child in the eye, and you go, you're not going to get this credit. Not because you can't learn and not because I can't teach, but because we don't have the time and resources you need for us to get you there. That breaks teachers' hearts, and those are the things that are hard to hear. I'm telling you, it's very emotional, difficult for teachers right now with the way the system is. For the students and their parents, we need the time to discuss the challenges, maybe different approaches, how to get there. But the first step is let's work together.

NK: Rene, thank you for your time.

RJIDW: Appreciate the interest. Have yourself a great day. And welcome back to school, everybody. [chuckling]

NK: You, too. Hope it's a good one.

CH: Rene Jansen in de Wal is the President of the Ontario English Catholic Teachers Association. We reached him in Windsor, Ontario.

[hip-hop beat]

FOA: Russian Spy Whale

CH: When Hvaldimir crossed into Norwegian waters, he was labelled a Russian spy. And he couldn't refute the charges, due to being a beluga whale. Hvaldimir was first spotted in 2019 wearing a harness --- which is what prompted the Russian spy rumours. He was also extremely interested in people, seemed to respond to hand signals, and was overall very cute. The perfect disguise for clandestine intelligence-gathering. Or -- as experts pointed out -- he had been trained as some kind of therapy beluga. Well -- sadly -- Norway's public broadcaster is reporting that on Saturday, Hvaldimir was found dead by a father and son who were out fishing. In 2019, we spoke with Jørgen Wiig -- a marine biologist who joined fishermen to try to rescue the whale from his harness. Here's that conversation -- From Our Archives.

SOUNDCLIP

JW: Yeah, it’s a harness like when you put your rucksack on your back. It's the same thing.

CO: This is fastened quite firmly around this whale. How did you get it off the whale?

JW: I tried to lure it towards me with a fish fillet that we just fished a couple of days ago. It's really good. And my partner tried to free it, but it was quite hard. The fisherman he was still there. He told us he can jump in the water and try to get a bigger reach.

CO: I mean you'd have to actually get your hands on the whale’s harness — physically get your hands on it, right?

JW: Yeah. That is what we did, and we had like several attempts. And we could touch the harness, and then we can start like ripping it off. But when we just pressed the clip, it just swam away. Yeah, that was quite difficult. The fishermen, he managed to unclip one of the clips. And then I gave him this special whale releasing equipment. I attached that hook to a rope that I attach the other end to our boat. And he managed to get it around the harness. And the whale went wild. He just went straight down, and it started to pull the boat, and pull, and pull, and pull. And I was like standing there with a knife ready to cut it off — the rope. And then suddenly, pop, it released itself. And then we could see that the harness was loose from the whale, and we just started cheering. It was just a really good feeling.

CO: Wow! So that's not the end of the story. You actually could see some identity on this harness. What did you find?

JW: It was really small letters was printed a logo that was reading Equipment St. Petersburg.

CO: In English, it said Equipment St. Petersburg.?

JW: Yeah.

CO: Well, the Russians are pretty interested in Norway these days…

[crosstalk]

JW: Yeah, they are.

CO: So is it possible, especially around the coast, is it possible that they were trying to use this whale for espionage?

JW: Yes, so that could be. The was this Norwegian newspaper, they have done some research in this. And they’ve that the Russians have used beluga whales before, and they also use sea lions for this purpose. And they also found video of a sea lion with really a similar harness like this.

CH: From Our Archives, that was former host Carol Off -- of course -- speaking with Jørgen Wiig, a marine biologist and Inspector with the Norwegian Directorate of Fisheries.

[elevator music]

Leanne Taylor

CH: Today -- at the Paralympics in Paris -- Team Canada added to its medal haul. And Leanne Taylor is one of the athletes with one around her neck. The 32-year-old Winnipeg triathlete took home the bronze in the women's P-T-W-C category of the wheelchair triathlon. She told Radio-Canada about the moment in the race when she thought the podium was possible.

SOUNDCLIP

LEANNE TAYLOR: I don't know if I ever really believed it. I heard my coach say that I was in third on the run, and that is the place where I feel strong, but I wasn't willing to believe it until I crossed the finish line and my husband said it. And I was like, okay, it's real. [chuckling]

JEAN ST-ONGE: How tough was that course? Because -- on TV -- it looked real bumpy.

LT: Yeah, that course was very tough. The coble was something different for us and I struggled for sure on the bike. That wasn't the bike that I had wanted to have. So then I had to work a lot harder in the run to kind of gain back the time. But -- luckily -- I managed to hold on and got the place that I was hoping to get coming in.

JS: Now, what a year it has been for you with the gold medals at the America's Cup and now that bronze medal. What does that mean for you?

LT: We wouldn't have expected this result a year ago. And I think it's just been so lovely to finally see everything falling into place. You see a good year, and it looks like a year's worth of work, but it took a very long time to get to that place and to have that race finally work out for us. So, I think we're just so happy to have been able to see the fruits of our labour this year.

JS: And the fact that there was a crowd, people cheering you on -- naturally -- with your husband with you. How special is that?

LT: It was amazing, I think, to get the opportunity to race in front of such an enthusiastic crowd and so many of my own friends and family was super exciting. So, I definitely think that amps up your performance.

JS: So, we see you in L.A.?

LT: I hope so. I really do hope so. We're hoping to have a family but then come back, so we shall see.

CH: Winnipeg racer Leanne Taylor speaking today with Radio-Canada's Jean St-Onge after she won bronze in women's wheelchair triathlon.

[calypso]

VA Lemonade Stand

Guests: Rebecca Caldwell, Josh Caldwell, Annetta Caldwell

CH: One hot and sunny summer afternoon this year, 10-year-old Rebecca Caldwell and her eight-year-old brother Josh set up a lemonade stand on their front lawn in Virginia. It was thirsty weather, and the brother and sister managed to make an impressive $40. And then -- out of nowhere -- a man drove up and stole their jar of money. Unsurprisingly, this soured Rebecca and Josh on the whole lemonade-stand enterprise. But after drying their tears and calling the police, their mother convinced them to give it another try. And less than a week later, the Caldwell kids had a satisfyingly successful day, serving more than 100 customers -- Many of whom were members of the local motorcycle club. We reached Rebecca and Josh -- and their mother, Annetta Caldwell -- in Chesapeake, Virginia.

NK: Annetta, take us back to, to that first lemonade stand. You were out there with your children, you go inside for just a minute and then they come in crying, which would be troubling enough -- I think -- for a parent. And then they tell you they're crying because someone stole their jar of the money they'd made. What did you do?

ANNETTA CALDWELL: Well, I got really, I got really upset. And I actually went outside trying to find the guy and didn't see him. So we ended up calling the police, and they came out pretty quick, like within a few minutes, to talk to us.

NK: Well, that's good! Because -- I mean -- they could have just said Maybe it's -- to them -- it's not a priority.

AC: Yeah. For some reason, they -- like -- three of them came out -- like -- pretty quick within a few minutes and then decided to help us look for the footage, like right away.

NK: Josh -- if you can remember that day -- what did you think when, when a stranger came up and didn't buy lemonade but instead took the money? I mean, just tell us what happened and what you thought.

JOSH CALDWELL: I got mad.

NK: You got mad.

JC: And I, I tried chasing after him.

NK: You tried chasing after him?!

JC: Yeah.

NK: Do you remember what happened when this person came up? I mean did he, did he try to talk to you both? Or did he just run up and, and take the money and run?

JS: He was saying oh cool! You're doing a lemonade stand! And then he grabbed it and ran off. I mean, the man ran off.

NK: Right. And -- Rebecca -- what do you remember?

REBECCA CALDWELL: Yeah. Basically, what he said. But -- yeah -- he came up to us saying it's cool that we're doing a lemonade stand. I was pouring him the lemonade, my back was turned, and he stole the money, jumped in his car and drove off.

NK: Oh, it just makes your heart sink in that moment. What did you do? Your brother said he tried to chase after him. Little brothers, right? [laughing].

RC: Yeah. I stopped him from running after the car, and I told him to come inside.

NK: Annetta -- once it's sorted out with police -- you tell, you tell your kids you should do this again. You should set up another lemonade stand. Why did you want to do that? Because a lot of people might say, you know what? Let's take a break from this.

AC: Well, I feel like if they would have taken a break, it could have been something that they were afraid of. And so, I wanted them just to go ahead and try again and, and see, see something better come out of it versus just -- you know -- that was scary. And then -- you know -- that can stick with you for a long time.

NK: Sure, yeah. Rebecca, when, when your mom says to you, let's get back out there in just a couple of days, what did you think of that idea?

RC: I thought it would be really fun, 'cause -- like -- also, I -- well -- after that happened, I was like, I don't think this is going to happen again. So I didn't feel as scared on Saturday.

NK: And -- Josh -- what did you think? Were you ready to go back out there and make some more money?

JC: Yeah.

NK: Yeah.

JC: And what was the turnout like, Rebecca?

RC: We got a lot of money, it was really fun, and we had a good time.

NK: Yeah, I'm going to talk about how much you raised in just a second because it's, it is, it is a lot of money. But there was also, one of the other interesting parts of this story is a local biker group comes riding through as well. What, what did you think when you saw all of that?

RC: It was really cool. I did not think that many people would come.

NK: [chuckling] More than 100 bikers. And what did they tell you?

RC: Yeah! They were just saying that they're sorry that that happened. But -- yeah -- they all turned out and stuff.

NK: That's a lot of lemonade. How did you guys keep up?

RC: We just bought a lot of lemonade, and we would just refill the buckets every time.

NK: And in the middle of doing all of that -- Rebecca -- you also got to take a ride, I heard.

RC: Yeah, it was really fun. He went very fast, which I thought he was going to go slow. And it was really fast.

AC: I actually approached him and asked if she can get a ride because I know that she loves that kind of stuff.

NK: Right.

AC: So I was like, just down the road. [both chuckle] I didn't want her to go very far, but it was, it was fun. We got some pictures of her doing it.

NK: Yeah. In the end -- it's such a large amount of money -- $6,500 in the end. What are you going to do with all that money, Josh?

JC: Buy Busch Gardens passes and then buy a dirt bike.

NK: And what about you, Rebecca?

RC: I'm buying a four-wheeler.

NK: Yeah?

RC: And we're also going to give some money to our sister for missionary work.

NK: Right. Annetta, we should mention -- in terms of the case -- Chesapeake police did arrest a 19-year-old in connection with this case. I mean, how are you feeling about the fact that someone so young -- and perhaps from your community -- might have been responsible for this?

AC: Well, I mean, my first response was, was relief that we found somebody. Yeah, I do want to -- like -- talk to him and find out -- like -- what was going on. Like, what would cause him to be that desperate to get, to get money from the lemonade stand with the kids. And -- yeah, I mean -- my heart -- like -- it's been, I told the kids -- like -- we need to forgive him was the first thing. So that they don't get bitter hearts towards people. And I think that God really helped them through this whole thing.

NK: You know, when, when parents give the okay for their children to set up a stand like this or any sort of small little venture, part of that is fun. But part of that is -- of course -- life lessons. But this, these are many layers of life lessons. What do you think -- overall -- we should all take away from what your family has done here?

AC: One of the biggest takeaways -- I think -- is that when there's bad things that happen, there can always be good things that come out of it. And that the community that you're in can just totally surprise you. I never, I never thought that there was this much support for people going through stuff. And so, I think that's the biggest takeaway is those two things. That God can turn anything together for good, and that there's always something good that could come out of bad things.

NK: Well -- Annetta, Josh, Rebecca -- a pleasure speaking with you all. Congratulations in the end. Thank you.

AC: Thank you. Bye.

CH: Annetta Caldwell and her kids -- Rebecca and Josh -- ran a very successful lemonade stand this summer. We reached them in Chesapeake, Virginia.

The AIH Transcript For September 2

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