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The AIH Transcript for September 17, 2024

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KOKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Down, but not out. Like it or not. After a by-election loss in a longtime Liberal stronghold, a Justin Trudeau biographer reflects on how the PM may be responding as the pressure is stepped up for him to step down.

CH: Out of control. Gisèle Pélicot's husband, admits in court that he drugged her for nearly a decade, so he and dozens of other men could rape her. In a case that has turned the woman at its heart into a symbol of the fight against sexual violence.

NK: The force is the issue. Six First Nations people have been killed by police in the last few weeks alone. Nunavut MP Lori Idlout called for an emergency debate on the issue last night. She'll tell us what happened.

CH: On safe bets. In a case with high stakes for the system and himself, an Ontario man says he is suing the province for making it too hard to stop gambling online.

NK: Preserving the fourth wall. A master replica maker tells us why he's taking on the site where a German artist found refuge from the Nazis and how he hopes to make it a place of refuge for artists again.

CH: And gag gift. An NFL quarterback is disappointed when he is handed the football mid-game only to discover he can't hurl it because his teammate has hurled on it. As It Happens, the Tuesday edition, radio that refuses to even throw up its hands.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Montreal Byelection Trudeau, Indigenous Police Violence Debate, Kurt Schwitters Barn, Green Bay Quarterback Puke

Montreal Byelection Trudeau

Guest: Stephen Maher

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Well, first of all, I want to congratulate everyone who stepped up in putting their name on a ballot at a time where we know politics is a challenging, in a challenging moment. I also want to highlight the thousands upon thousands of volunteers who stepped out lots for our party, but lots for other parties as well to show that people are still very much engaged. At the same time, we need people to be more engaged. We need people to understand what's at stake in this upcoming election. Obviously, it would have been nicer to be able to win and hold Verdun, but there's more work to do and we're going to stay focussed on doing it.

CH: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau doing his best to remain positive after a decidedly negative result for the Liberals in last night's Montreal byelection. Despite a major push by the party, it lost its former stronghold of LaSalle - Émard - Verdun to the Bloc Québécois. That is the second high profile byelection loss for the Liberal Party in a matter of months. And that has increased pressure on Mr. Trudeau to resign before the next election, whenever that may be. Our CBC News colleagues are reporting a non-confidence motion could come as early as next week, but for now, the PM is not budging. Stephen Maher is a journalist and the author of the Trudeau biography "The Prince". We reached him on Nova Scotia's South Shore.

NK: Stephen, how does what you heard from the Prime Minister there square with the Justin Trudeau you've covered, written about, spoken to?

STEPHEN MAHER: Well, he's saying the same kinds of things he's been saying for a while. Whenever confronted with evidence that people have, are getting tired of him. He always says, well, I'm just going to double down and we've got to work harder and try to communicate what's at stake. But if you could watch the video, he does look a little tired and he's kind of stammering and he looks somewhat less confident than normal.

NK: This loss was very close, as you know, as you look at the final tally, the Conservative candidate, there was a Conservative candidate, but they weren't going to win this race. The loss was to the Bloc very close with the NDP as well. Trudeau, as you know, has said repeatedly he's not going anywhere, given how things unfolded last night. You know, not questioning that Liberals overall might be in trouble. But given how things unfolded last night, do you think that that's going to be the thing and the moment that really changes things and forces Trudeau to go.

SM: Well, I have to say, I think he will go. But he controls the timetable. His caucus, almost all of them were elected on his coattails. There wasn't much of a Liberal Party of Canada when he took over the party in 2013 and he led them to a majority in 2015. That said, they are looking at losing those jobs now and they want him to go.

NK: Knowing what you know about Justin Trudeau. You know, as you put together your book, his psyche, how he operates, how do you think his past, politically and personally might be influencing how he perceives this present moment and the future of his career?

SM: The thing, one of the unusual characteristics of Justin Trudeau is his great confidence. He believes in himself like nobody you've ever met. One of his former cabinet members, minister told me it's like a superpower. And it's true. Throughout his career, throughout his political career, people have counted him out and he proved them wrong. He proved them wrong in the boxing match, in the election of 2015, in the election of 2019, of 2021. He comes back from scandals. He manages to find a way to come out a winner in the trade disputes with Donald Trump. So, he's got a long track record of prevailing, but it feels like now it's different that he's fighting gravity. It's been, he's been in power for nine years. And all around the world, incumbents in his position are getting expelled by voters, particularly when you preside over a cost of living crisis. People basically want to blame somebody. And if you're running the country, that's going to be you.

NK: Do you think, though, based on his previous performances and previous examples, that being down like this will fuel him?

SM: Well, that seems to be his natural reaction is to say, well, I believe in myself and I'm not going anywhere. That's what he keeps saying. But it's becoming obvious to people in his government, in his party, that Canadians don't want that. It's a democracy. Canadians are making it clear in this byelection and in the byelection in Toronto, St Paul's. And when they talk to pollsters that they're ready to move on. And I suspect that before long he'll be forced to recognize that he is about to drive his party into a ditch that they might never get out of. And that for the sake of his legacy and the verdict of history, he will see that he is better off making a voluntary exit.

NK: The timing is key. As you well know, transitions, the smoothness of a transition is key and the Liberal Party certainly knows about that. When we think of Chretien, Paul Martin and everything that came after. And the situation that the party was in as you talked about, before Trudeau came to lead the party and then become Prime Minister. So, what do you see in terms of a potential transition if indeed Prime Minister Justin Trudeau decides to step aside and make room for someone else.

SM: Because he didn't do it when some people thought he should earlier this year, there were people hoping that he would do it over the summer so that at some point in the autumn, a new leader would take over. Now, you know he's made, by waiting he's made it more difficult. He could prorogue the house. They've said they're not thinking about that. But the idea of carrying on, he would have to remain as Prime Minister while the leadership race goes on. So, it does not look like an easy thing at all to do. But I'm thinking of it a bit like the third period of a hockey game when you're down by a couple of goals. Teams know that pulling the goalie is risky, but still they sometimes do it because they know they're going to lose if they don't do it.

NK: What's your best guess on a timeline if there were to be a change, Stephen?

SM: It's hard to know because he holds the cards and he's not going to be forced out soon. They have said, the Liberals have said they're not going to stand in the way of the Conservatives having a vote of no confidence in the House. So, the other thing that could happen is we could be plunged into an election in short order with an extremely unpopular incumbent Liberal Prime Minister.

NK: Any advice for Canadians then, Stephen, given what could come?

SM: Well, it's very interesting what's happening in the United States, but you may want to pay attention to what's happening in Ottawa because we could be into an election.

NK: Stephen, good speaking with you. Thank you.

SM: My pleasure. Thank you.

CH: Stephen Maher is a journalist and the author of the Justin Trudeau biography "The Prince". We reached him on Nova Scotia's South Shore.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Indigenous Police Violence Debate

Guest: Lori Idlout

CH: Jack Piche, Hoss Lightning, Tammy Bateman, Jason West, Daniel Knife and Steven “Iggy” Dedam. All indigenous, all killed by police in an 11 day span. Nunavut MP Lori Idlout says their deaths are part of a disturbing pattern. And last night, following a request by Ms. Idlout, parliamentarians held a five and a half hour emergency debate on the issue in the House of Commons. We reached Lori Idlout today in Ottawa.

NK: Lori Idlout, in the letter calling for this emergency debate. You wrote, quote, Indigenous peoples are owed answers by this government as to why Indigenous people continue to be victims of violence carried out by the government, end quote. Did you get answers last night?

LORI IDLOUT: Unfortunately, I didn't get the answers I was necessarily looking for. But the responses from this Liberal government were quite disappointing.

NK: Two of the people killed were hit by police vehicles. One of them, Tammy Bateman, was hit in a Winnipeg park. Three of the men killed were shot by police and 15 year old Hoss Lightning from Samson Cree Nation was shot by RCMP officers after he called them for help. His grandmother, Nadalie Lightning, spoke to CBC News about how her grandson reached out that night, including messaging her.

SOUNDCLIP

NADALIE LIGHTNING: I have my text that told me [inaudible], come and get me. And you know, I have to live with that for the rest of my life because I didn't hear it at 1:00 in the morning. [REPORTER: He texted you that night?] Oh, yeah. And he told me I'm calling the police.

NK: That's hard to hear.

LI: I really hope that she accepts that nothing that happened is her fault and that she doesn't take that additional grief of how the system failed us and his family, especially her. I'm sure that, that guilt can hold on to her, but I really hope that she gets a sense of closure knowing that what's happened to her is something that is being heard at the parliament level, that there are serious debates about how to start dismantling the systemic racism that allows these types of incidents to happen.

NK: In that letter to Speaker Greg Fergus, you also wrote about what you see as a lack of media coverage of these deaths that you say shows, quote, systemic violence and deaths of indigenous peoples in Canada is normal and expected, unquote. How do you break through the complacency that you see and feel?

LI: I hope that what we did today will be another step. Unfortunately, there have already been so many other efforts to address that complacency and the reports that need to be implemented to help answer that question include MMIW's calls for justice as well as the TRC's call for action. There are already solutions that have been offered that these governments just keep ignoring. I think the biggest thing that needs to happen is to finally listen to Indigenous peoples who have solutions that they know will work for their communities.

NK: There appears to be consensus or appeared to be in the debate last night that any solutions need to be Indigenous led. The Federal Government has said it's drafting legislation making First Nations policing an essential service and says it has increased funding to that end. Do you think the funding is where it needs to be?

LI: It is obviously not. The Liberals made a promise for introducing legislation back in 2020. Four years later, we're still waiting. I had worked with MP Carol Hughes, who has a riding in northern Ontario, and she had reached out to me as the Indigenous critic for the NDP because the Federal government was not respecting First Nations policing. For example, the UCC Aboriginal police in northern Ontario, the same level of funding that they give to the RCMP. There's no core funding for First Nations policing and that puts a lot of stress on law enforcement by First Nations people. So, it is definitely whatever they say they're doing is not enough. And that's why this debate is so important, because it highlights that there are too many incidences of racism, whether it's not negotiating with First Nations law enforcement or not coming to protect children or drastically killing First Nations, Metis or Inuit when there's supposed to be calls for protection, for wellness checks, these very basic things, it's not happening. So, it's obvious to me that what the liberals are saying is enough for them. It's definitely not enough for First Nations, Inuit and Metis.

NK: In each of the cases we've been speaking about, police watchdogs are investigating. Do you put a lot of faith in that process?

LI: I really hope that with these investigations that it includes First Nations people. I think part of the solution that needs to happen is to have Indigenous oversight. And I think that if law enforcement were accountable to Indigenous peoples, their behaviours would change because they would make sure that they are taking cultural competency training or de-escalation techniques as called for by the AFN Chief Cindy Woodhouse. Having Indigenous oversight would mean that they would be given solutions that can work for Indigenous peoples.

NK: As you keep pushing for change, what do you say to people who say to you, Indigenous people who say they're afraid to call police even if they need help, even if they're in danger?

LI: I wish I could give them a better sense of hope. But there is too much work to do. I think that what we were able to do with the emergency debate is just the tip of the iceberg. The fact that the Liberals are recommending more studies while Indigenous peoples are dying, while Indigenous peoples are being killed, that means that they are not committed to making sure that Indigenous lives are being saved. We don't need more reports. We don't need more studies. We need action immediately.

NK: Lori Idlout, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

LI: Thank you so much for having me, Nil.

CH: Lori Idlout is the NDP MP for Nunavut. We reached her in Ottawa.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

Kurt Schwitters Barn

Guest: Adam Lowe

CH: If you walked into the Oratory of San Lorenzo in Italy, you would see Caravaggio's famous Nativity with Saint Francis and Saint Lawrence. A stunning painting from the 17th century that perfectly exemplifies the artist's astonishing skill and precision. Or rather, you would see a stunning replica of that stunning painting. The original was stolen in 1969 and has been missing ever since. But you would never know. Thanks to the work of Adam Lowe and his team, Mr. Lowe is a master of his craft, restoring and replicating ancient artefacts like Tutankhamun's tomb and pieces by some of history's greatest artists like Caravaggio. And now he's turning his attention to a barn. It's known as Kurt Schwitters' Merz Barn, located in England's Lake district. It's where the German artist who was part of the Dada movement that formed during the First World War, lived after escaping Nazi Germany. But it was a lot more than just the place he lived. We reached Adam Lowe in Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates.

NK: Adam, can you describe what the Merz barn is like for those of us who haven't seen it up close like you?

ADAM LOWE: Yes. I mean, the Merz barn is a small stone structure. It's in one of the most beautiful valleys in England in this area between the big mountains and the lakes. It's incredibly green. It rains a lot. So, it's sort of almost like a rainforest environment in an English climate.

NK: It sounds beautiful. What about the inside of the barn?

AL: Well, the inside of the barn at the moment is basically left as a bit of a ruin when in the late 60s, the pop artist Richard Hamilton, in order to preserve the great sculpture, like Schwitters, removed one whole wall of the barn.

NK: And that part of the of the barn. That wall was taken, as you said, and is now on display at a gallery in Newcastle. You're going to replicate that entire wall, right?

AL: Well, we hope so. I mean, many people believe this is one of the most significant works of art that were made in the middle of the 20th century anywhere. In the case of the Merz barn, they're made out of dominantly plaster with found objects and some paint. It's a sort of, it's hard to describe because it is purely abstract, but it's got a sort of swirling natural form. And Schwitters believed that it was the most important work that he made. And, you know, he didn't live to see the thing completed. He intended to finish the whole interior and create this sort of cavernous, grotto like environment that's totally immersive.

NK: What do you think he meant us to feel by looking at that installation?

AL: Yeah, it's always hard because I mean with really abstract works of art and the intentions of the artist are always quite difficult. But if you look at his other works, they're very complex, multilayered things where he often starts with elements that cause him pain and dissatisfaction. So, I mean, we did work on one in Norway that he made on an island called Håkøya, which is again, another spectacularly beautiful environment where he covered the walls of this potato shed with collage. And you could see he begins with German newspapers from the 30s with all the things that were problematic. And he works towards found objects that give him great pleasure, whether it's bus tickets or chocolate wrappers or other things. So, he's using the elements in an abstract way, but they are all things that have association. And I think, you know, he'd been, he fled Germany in '37. He went to Norway. He had to flee Norway in 1940. He went to, he got to Edinburgh and he was put in an internment camp in England. And a big part of our interest is, you know, how does a refugee artist like Kurt Schwitters find his way in another country?

NK: Where do you even begin as you start your work to make this replica? Where do you start?

AL: Where we begin is that the site is a 12 acre site with three buildings. One is the barn; one is an old blacksmith's forge and one is a small cottage. And the first thing we need to do is to renovate those buildings and make sure they're stable and secure. And then we'll be reaching out to the Hatton Gallery and trying to get their support to allow us to make an exact digital reconstruction of how the wall would have been when it was there. So that's using 3D scanning. It's using photogrammetry and composite photography to record the surface of the sculpture. And then to re materialize it.

NK: You know, as you as you talk about Schwitters' displacement, it strikes me that that his story is quite relevant today. Perhaps you feel the same way. You are hoping that when this is done, that the land around the barn will become a hub for displaced artists as well.

AL: We want it to be a refuge for refugee artists. We want people who want time to think and reflect to be drawn to this site in the way that Schwitters was. So, we're not doing what a lot of art spaces try to do where you need large numbers of visitors to sustain them. We're trying to create a structure that's innovative, that plays on the magic of the site and plays on the sort of cult following that Schwitters has. So, people care very deeply about it, and it's very much creating an artist site, a place where people who go who want a deep experience, who want to spend time and immerse themselves in that environment.

NK: Well, perhaps we'll speak again, Adam, when it's already completed. Adam I'm very glad we could speak. Thank you.

AL: Thank you very much.

CH: Adam Lowe is the founder of the Factum Foundation. We reached him in Abu Dhabi.

[Music: Whimsical instrumental]

Green Bay Quarterback Puke

CH: Sports. [intense music] The drive, the nausea, the passion, the intensity, the vomiting, [music abruptly stops] the action, the... Why did you stop the music? Is it because I mentioned intensity. Sports are intense. Everybody knows... Oh wait, I know. No, you didn't like the part about the vomiting. Well, look, I got some bad news for you. Naysayers also, for anyone who's eating right now, you might want to turn the radio down for a minute. Like it or not, there is barfing in sports. I shouldn't have said like it or not, no one likes it. Least of all the player who does it well. Least of all the players around the player who does it. And that includes Green Bay Packers backup quarterback Malik Willis during Sunday's game against the Indianapolis Colts. He did something confusing on a third down with receivers wide open. He failed to even attempt a pass. Instead, he ran the ball and he got nowhere. Fans were confused. And Packers head coach Matt LaFleur was also confused.

SOUNDCLIP

MATT LAFLEUR: I asked Malik why he didn't throw the ball on that third down, and he told me that Josh threw up on the ball. And I was like, That's the first time I've ever heard that. Matter of fact, the official came over to me. Sean came over to me and said, You know, we saw your centre throwing up on the ball. Do you want us to take him out next time? I said, Absolutely, please do that. Because, I mean, you're talking about a critical situation. And it's third down and I've never had a throw with vomit on a football, so I don't know. I don't think Malik, probably didn't appreciate that.

CH: Probably not. Now, for clarity. Not that you want anymore. The Josh who had the stomach trouble is Centre Josh Myers. He thinks he might have over hydrated. But also, it was 29°C and he was wearing layers. It's a wonder everyone wasn't queasy. Unfortunately, it was just the guy who hikes the ball to the quarterback who could not get a solid enough grip on it to throw it after his teammate hurled on it. As Josh Myers later said, "Dang, I'm going to have to apologize for that one. That was probably pretty gross". It was. And there's more to say about it, but I'm just going to do what he wishes he could have done and keep it down.

[Music: Violin instrumental]

Part 2: Gisèle Pélicot Case, FOA: Marshall Decision Anniversary, Online Gambling Lawsuit, Natalie Achonwa

Gisèle Pélicot Case

Guest: Andreea Gruev-Vintila

CH: The details of the case are horrifying and a warning they're very difficult to hear. Today in a French court, Dominique Pélicot confessed to repeatedly drugging his wife for nearly a decade so that he and 50 other men could rape her. Gisèle Pélicot had no idea these assaults were happening to her until police found videos on her husband's phone in 2020. The story and the trial has rocked the country, in part because Gisèle Pélicot has requested the trial be open to the public so nothing like this ever happens again. Andreea Gruev-Vintila is a senior lecturer on social psychology at the University of Paris-Nanterre and an expert in gender violence and coercive control, we reached her in Paris.

NK: Andreea, Dominique Pélicot said, as you heard, quote, I am a rapist like the others in this room, unquote. But he then went on to try to explain why he did this to his now ex-wife, Gisèle Pélicot. What did you take away from his explanation?

ANDREEA GRUEV VINTILA: Well, first of all, that he's one of the few rapists who admits their deeds. But he also followed up by saying that he justified what he did by the fact that he had been abused as a child. And this is something that we should not be misled about because it is not because someone experiences the unfortunate experience of being sexually abused as a child that they become sexual abusers later. In fact, if this was true, most of the perpetrators when they grow up would be women, and this is not the case. So, what is interesting in Dominique Pélicot's admission to his deeds is that he did admit but he certainly did not sounds guilty or sorry for what he did. In fact, he again put himself at the centre of his perception and he didn't really care for what he did to his wife, Gisèle.

NK: There are so many extraordinary aspects of this case. At the top of that list, certainly, though, is that Gisèle Pélicot chose to go public. She did not want her name hidden. She allowed for videos of the assaults that happened to her for so many years to be played in court as part of the evidence being presented. What did you hear in court about why she chose to confront these men so publicly?

AGV: Gisèle Pélicot courageous is tremendous and her testimony has really broken the silence surrounding this extreme form of domestic violence. I think that by refusing the closed door proceedings she has exposed, she really wanted to, the society to be aware of the mechanisms of what is called coercive control and to contribute to a collective awareness of the reality of what she experienced. And she actually said that she does this for all the other victims of domestic rape.

NK: According to police, the defendants, you know, they came from all different walks of life. Many of them had wives and children, what people would describe as, quote unquote, normal lives. And many have no criminal records. Again, these cases are proceeding. But what does that signal to you that that is being revealed as part of this case?

AGV: You know, there was a very interesting paper written by French philosopher Camille Froidevaux-Metterie, who points out that this trial reveals, quote, the very ordinary dimension, unquote, of sexual violence perpetrator. Challenging the stereotypes about abusers as monsters and really highlighting the prevalence and the ordinary prevalence of this violence in our society. The question for me would be, of course it's tragic, of course it's a horrible trial, but in a way, we have the chance that in this trial we have video recordings of the facts. The question is, what if we didn't have these video recordings? Would she have been believed in the same way? Would we have reacted as a society showing that we do believe what she went through? So, it's interesting because the existence of visual evidence in this case brings a unique dimension that reinforces the credibility of sexual violence victims in general. And this could, I hope it could encourage other victims to speak out and challenge the skepticism that is almost very often opposed to their testimonies.

NK: About rape, but also rape within the confines of marriage as well. [AGV: Exactly]. Some of the accused men are denying the allegations, saying. In some cases that, you know, they're arguing this wasn't rape because her husband was present. Another defendant said it was part of a, quote, "couple's game". One claimed she was just pretending to be asleep. There is the video evidence. As you've said but there's also these arguments from some of the defendants who say they're innocent. What do you make of what they're arguing in their own defence?

AGV: It's very interesting because especially the first argument that you mentioned, namely that they saw that because the husband was there, they thought it was okay. It's really for me as a social psychologist, what this says is that there are still people in France today that can believe that a man can give a, be the guarantee for his wife's will, as if she wasn't a human person herself, as if she didn't have her own words, her own conscience, her own consent to keep. So, it's really deeply troubling and maybe something that they would like to emphasize that the man's on trial. While it is deeply troubling, it does offer an unprecedented opportunity to confront the reality, of course, of control and sexual violence within the marital rape in France.

NK: There's been such a response, an outpouring of support for Gisèle Pélicot. You know, I've seen people holding signs that say, "I am Gisèle". But also, you know, I've heard references to the chant, "Shame must change sides". Do you think it will actually trigger meaningful, meaningful change, or is this just a moment that will pass?

AGV: You know, as a social psychologist, I always think that the moment is what we make out of it. And social change does happen with persistent action. So, it's in a way up to us to take this to a cultural shift. And maybe the [inaudible] trial does represent the turning point and at least an opportunity for a turning point in French culture that may challenge the ingrained attitudes about gender, about power, about violence in intimate relationships and coercive control. But it's up to us to be persistent, to take this change further and to not let it just be a moment.

NK: Thanks very much for your time, Andreea. I'm glad we could speak.

AGV: Thank you very much.

CH: Andreea Gruev-Vintila is a senior lecturer on social psychology at the University of Paris-Nanterre. She's in Paris.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

FOA: Marshall Decision Anniversary

CH: By 1999, Donald Marshall Jr. had spent years of his life fighting. In 1971, the Mi'kmaw man from Membertou, Nova Scotia was wrongly convicted of murder. He spent more than a decade in prison before his conviction was overturned. And years later, Mr. Marshall was in the courts again when he was arrested and charged with selling eels out of season without a license. 25 years ago, today, that arrest culminated in a landmark decision from the Supreme Court, which found Mr. Marshall's treaty rights entitle him to fish in pursuit of a moderate livelihood. In 1999, after that ruling came down. Donald Marshall Jr. spoke to reporters in Halifax.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD MARSHALL JR: It's been a hard struggle for us, but, you know, hard work pays off at the end. And at times I almost gave up. But I, but in the back of my mind, I wasn't giving up. You know, I dealt with the courts before. And to me, a treaty right was something that I knew that was there. The other stuff you, I guess you know what I'm dealing, the other stuff I was dealing with. I never thought of be in the spotlight again. I'm trying to live a normal life, and I don't see any normal around here. [laughter] But to me, it gives me, give myself, you know, a pat on the shoulder because I'm Mi'kmaq and I'm proud to be Mi'kmaq and I appreciate what people did to me, for me. And I will stand up with them as far as we can go. And I think we stood all the way up.

CH: Donald Marshall Junior, speaking to reporters on this day in 1999. Bruce Wildsmith represented Mr. Marshall in that case. At the time, he explained the significance of the decision to, As It Happens, guest host Rick MacInnes-Rae.

SOUNDCLIP

BRUCE WILDSMITH: We thought it was a tremendous vindication.

RICK MACINNES RAE: Much of a precedent as well as vindication, in your view?

BW: Well, absolutely. A precedent of national significance, of particular direct relevance to five provinces. The same treaties that were involved in this case are treaties that all Mi'kmaq people and Maliseet people in New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, the Gaspé area of Quebec and the south coast of Newfoundland have.

RMR: Is that automatic or do they have to use this case now to fight their own battle?

BW: Well, as in a lot of things, there's a narrow interpretation and a broader interpretation. At the narrowest level what they did was uphold the treaties in respect of trading eels by Junior Marshall. But the language that's used makes it pretty clear that they're interpreting the treaties in a way that would extend the benefits to all people with similar treaties. All of the three maritime provinces and the piece of Quebec and Newfoundland.

RMR: It's been said that this was a case about much more than just one man fishing. But it might be considered expanded to other things, logging, I don't know. Other things, you tell me.

BW: Well, sure. Well, on a narrow level, it could be just about eels. But I think the court makes it pretty darn clear that they're talking about fishery resources in general. The Mi'kmaq were pushed to one side through settlement. And the fishery is an absolute vital example of this. There's an expression in this decision where Justice Binnie is saying that in 1760 and he gives a few examples and stuff that the Mi'kmaq we're not to be trifled with. Well, I think that holds equally true today and that this case is a vindication of the fact that Mi'kmaq are not to be trifled with.

CH: From our archives. That was lawyer Bruce Wildsmith speaking to guest host Rick MacInnes-Rae on this program on September 17th, 1999.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Online Gambling Lawsuit

Guest: Shashi Bhatt

CH: An Ontario man is suing the province for making it too hard to stop gambling. Shashi Bhatt says he knows he has a gambling problem. He knew it in 2018 when he elected to be self-excluded from casinos across the province. But that was when Ontario only had physical casinos, and there was a one stop process to have yourself barred from betting in all of them. But then in 2022, the province opened the door to online casinos and sports betting. Subsequently, Mr. Bhatt says he had a relapse that cost him dearly and he lays at least some of the blame on the lack of a centralized self-exclusion tool. We reached Shashi Bhatt in Toronto.

NK: Shashi after Ontario gave the go ahead to these online casinos in 2022. How long after that before you started hearing from one of those casinos?

SHASHI BHATT: In the first week. That's the first time I noticed that I got an email from Bet MGM stating that that Bet MGM is online and it's legalized and available for all residents of Ontario. That's the first website I heard from.

NK: And what was that like for you to see that pop up after everything you'd been able to accomplish and step away from?

SB: It was very devastating. At first, it appeared that my gambling addictive personality took over and basically ended up making an account on Bet MGM and Caesars online. I believe it was called William Hill back then. But yeah, those two were the websites that I made an account and I basically was able to gamble whatever I had saved up. And for years before that I had clean and then I had to go through each of those websites and had to ban myself. And that was basically the start of the problem back in April of 2022.

NK: So, it all unravelled very quickly it sounds like. How much money did you end up losing?

SB: So, I wanted to say a good estimate of how much I lost was about 230 thousand dollars in that over the period up to January of 2023.

NK: That's the financial toll. What about the emotional toll of this kind of addiction?

SB: So, the emotional toll was pretty bad because my wife was proud of me for not gambling for however long I did not gamble. And basically, I was faced with the ultimatum in January when she discovered that the money was missing from her bank account. She told me that either I have to stop gambling right now or then I would have went through a divorce, which I love my life and did not want to go through at that stage. Also, for me personally, it basically brought my old personalities back where I used to lie or I used to disappear from my family just so that I can gamble. Also, there were websites being constantly added and removed, and unfortunately there was no centralized self-exclusion program like OLG had. So basically, I just felt very helpless and depressed, I think, and very angry with myself and also the government for allowing and actively promoting this.

NK: The Toronto Star spoke to a spokesperson for iGaming, Ontario. Quote, We have been able to offer greater protections for Ontarians over the past two plus years while putting in the due diligence needed to develop a robust, centralized self-exclusion system that will benefit Ontarians for years to come, end quote. Just take our listeners through the process of trying to self-exclude yourself from all of the sites that you were getting emails from, because you know, if people subscribe to emails from a store, for example, all you have to do is hit unsubscribe, there's a link at the bottom of the email. Is that the case with online casinos?

SB: Right now, there are 50 operators that are allowed by the government to operate, and I had to go on each 50 website and self-exclude myself. There were two websites that required me to register, verify my ID, then make a deposit that would activate my account. Then I can self-exclude myself.

NK: You had to make a deposit to say I don't want to gamble on this site.

SB: Correct. So basically, they won't activate your account if you try... If you go on their website, if you register and try self-exclusion without making a deposit, it will say "your account is not activated. Please make a deposit to activate your account".

NK: I can imagine only that for someone dealing with an addiction to even go to the site, what kind of risks does that pose to someone in your position? Even if you're going there with the intent to self-exclude.

SB: Definitely the risk it poses really great for me because I know on both website, I had it in my head. Let me just open the account. I'll self-exclude myself for five years so it does not happen. But unfortunately, I made a deposit and that, of course, triggered me. So, I made two more deposit before I self-excluded myself.

NK: What would you say, though, to those who listen to your story and may be sympathetic, but also feel that this is all about choices that you're making, that these websites you don't have to go to these websites. They offer an option to self-exclude. What do you say to those who say this is a choice that you and others are making?

SB: Well, basically, there is a few per cent of population that do have a gambling addiction problem. The government has definitely recognized that it is a problem. They implemented Ontario land based casino exclusion and the OLG website exclusion they publish on their website they are going to have a future self-exclusion list which will be coordinated across all the websites. But two and a half years later, nothing has moved forward in that aspect. And me being an addict it's definitely brought misery to me. And basically, the choices I make, I do try and control myself and the choice... referring to previous things, one of the clearest example I gave is I want to go there, I want to make an exclusion. So at least when I'm in right state of mind, but then it required me to make a deposit before I can exclude myself is just like basically going to an alcoholic, Hey, you have to buy some alcohol before you know before we admit you have a problem.

NK: The province last month in August announced that it had engaged a contractor to build a centralized self-exclusion tool. What does that development mean for you?

SB: That development is great news for me. I mean, I've been hearing for two and a half years it will get implemented and nothing has happened yet. But if they do establish a self-exclusion list for all websites. I would be one of the first ones to register for it because I do want to continue staying clean, but I just hope that they follow through and it gets done. And it has been long overdue.

NK: How are you doing now? How are you taking care of yourself now, Shashi?

SB: So, good thing is recently they haven't added a website, so I have fortunately been very clean. My finances are finally back in line. I was able to pay all of my debt off and really in terms of like sending out e-transfers or anything, my wife controls a lot of the finances. So at least I have a barrier in place for now.

NK: Shashi, I appreciate your time. Take care.

SB: Yeah, no problem. Thank you.

CH: We reached Shashi Bhatt in Toronto.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Natalie Achonwa

CH: Natalie Achonwa is one of the biggest stars in Canadian basketball. The recent Paris games were her fourth Olympics with Team Canada, that's the most ever for a Canadian basketball player. And now she's moving on to another challenge, coaching for an NCAA women's basketball team. This month Ms. Achonwa was named the assistant coach of player development for the Michigan Wolverines. And today she reflected on that new position and the future of basketball in Canada.

SOUNDCLIP

NATALIE ACHONWA: I hope that I can just jump in and really be a sponge this first year. It'll be my first time coaching in the NCAA and I'm really just trying to learn how to recruit at a high level, how to really pour into the kids. And to be all that I received at that age. I think it's a huge developmental age in terms of not only on the court but as a person. And I hope that if I could just influence or help guide one athlete, I'll feel very full circle in this.

DAVID COMMON: You leave Team Canada, I'm pretty solid shape. What can you see for the future of the sport in this country?

NATALIE ACHONWA: Oh man, I am so excited to see how our national team program continues to develop. You could see with our younger teams winning a silver at the world Cup or World championships this summer, and now we're going to have, U19 playing this summer and then also starting a new cycle here with the senior team preparing for a World Cup. So, I just can't wait to see the growth of it. How these players that are playing in the NCAA, get another year under their belt in the programs they're in and how they're able to get better individually and bring that back to Canada basketball is huge for continued growth. And like you said, I leave it in great hands. We have some great vets and Kayla Alexander and Bridget Carleton and Kia Nurse. And those that are going to continue to push this program forward. And I'm not going to go far. I promised them that I might not be lacing up my shoes, but Canada basketball is who I am, it's ingrained in who I am. And I will always be a part of it in some way or another.

CH: Four time Canadian Olympic basketball star Natalie Achonwa telling David Common about her new job as assistant coach of the Michigan Wolverines NCAA women's basketball team on Metro Morning today.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Part 3: Perry Kendall, Chinese Taiwan Lobbying, Mark Wasyliw, Wild Rice Pest, Finland Pen & Paper, FOA: Hobbyhorse Competition

Perry Kendall

CH: Earlier this week, British Columbia Premier David Eby announced plans to expand involuntary care across the province to those with mental health and addiction issues. The Government says it wants to open highly secure facilities, many in correctional facilities across the province, to house individuals detained under the Mental Health Act. It's the latest attempt to tackle the drug crisis in B.C., which claimed more than 2500 lives last year. But Dr. Perry Kendall says there's a lack of evidence that compulsory care will help. He's the former public health officer for B.C. He says the plan isn't just questionable, it's also reminiscent of other failed attempts to treat addiction.

SOUNDCLIP

PERRY KENDALL: In the late 1970s there was a compulsory heroin treatment centre set up in Brandon Lake on Vancouver Island so that people with heroin addiction could be sentenced to treatment there. It lasted for a couple of years and then it was shown to be unconstitutional by B.C. Superior Court and it was disbanded. So, we've seen initiatives to treat substance use and addiction in a sort of more formal process, but I don't think any of them have really come to fruition. It gets really contentious when you're talking about youth and substance use and overdose. And I understand completely parents fears and desires to get their kids treated. I think three provinces do have mandatory treatment programs and legislation for youth. That's Manitoba, Alberta and Saskatchewan. But there's a lack of evidence as to whether this works or for whom it works or when it works or what formal treatment works.

STEPHEN QUINN: What is supported by evidence when it comes to treating addiction then?

PERRY KENDALL: Well, fentanyl has somewhat changed the balance. There is a gold standard or there was a gold standard treatment for opioid addiction. Opioid substitution with methadone or more recently, buprenorphine coupled with social supports and psychological supports and contingency management, cognitive behavioural therapies, etc. That's probably the gold standard. But it's quite well recognized that some opioid substance use is a chronic relapsing disorder and a person can be in treatment on and off for many years before they actually achieve recovery, which is why the harm reduction initiatives are so important because when you relapse after a period of abstinence or when you've lost your tolerance to high dose opioids because you've been on a taper program of withdrawal management, then you're substantially the risk of an overdose of death when you relapse.

CH: Former B.C. public health officer Dr. Perry Kendall, talking to Stephen Quinn, host of The Early Edition in Vancouver.

[Music: Electronic instrumental]

Chinese Taiwan Lobbying

Guest: Roland Paris

CH: A former prime ministerial adviser is getting some nasty travel reviews. University of Ottawa professor Roland Paris used to counsel Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on foreign policy, and he says the nasty reviews are coming from the government of China. In August, Professor Paris took a trip to Taiwan, a self-governing territory which the Chinese Communist Party considers a breakaway province. Now, he says, the Chinese government has responded to his trip by complaining about him to his employer and filing a grievance with the Department of Global Affairs. We reached Roland Paris in Ottawa.

NK: Professor Paris, what were you doing in Taiwan that caused so much concern?

ROLAND PARIS: Well, I travelled to Taiwan to speak at a conference called the Ketagalan Forum, which is an annual conference sponsored by the Government of Taiwan about Indo-Pacific security. And it takes place over the course of the day and with panels and panellists and experts from around the world and from Taiwan. And it's all streamed online. That's why I was there.

NK: Given that Taiwan is such a serious issue for China and the Chinese diplomats are known to play hardball when they feel it's necessary. Were you surprised to find out what you found out?

RP: I was surprised in the end. Initially I was more curious than anything else because the Chinese embassy reached out to me a couple of times before I left for the conference. I didn't actually connect with them, but the second time they tried to reach me was the very day I was leaving for Taiwan, which happened to be a Sunday. And when I got to the conference, quickly found out that all of the other international experts who were there had also, there had been efforts to contact them from the Chinese embassies in their respective countries. So, my initial thought was that this was a mild kind of warning that the Chinese government was essentially saying, you know, we are aware that you're travelling to Taiwan, we have our eyes on you. But it wasn't until I got back that I learned that the embassy had also contacted my employer and incredibly launched a formal diplomatic complaint with Global Affairs.

NK: Well, let's dig into the details of that complaint and that meeting, what was the Chinese government asking from your employer, the University of Ottawa?

RP: I don't know the specifics of the meeting. I was told by my university that the meeting took place, that the Chinese government was unhappy that I had either travelled to Taiwan or participated in this conference. And I don't know the specifics of the formal diplomatic complaint either. I just know that it related to my travel to Taiwan.

NK: If you had picked up any of those initial calls from the Chinese embassy, knowing what you know now, would it have changed whether you took part in this or not?

RP: Absolutely not. I think I would have just called them out much earlier. It really is remarkable that the Chinese government went to these lengths to protest the travel of a private citizen. You know, it's not unusual for China to protest the transit of ships through the Taiwan Strait. It's not unusual for China to protest when senior government officials in different countries meet with senior Taiwanese officials. But I haven't heard of a case where the Chinese have issued a formal diplomatic protest over private individuals travelling to Taiwan and participating in public events there.

NK: What does it signal to you?

RP: I think it's an indication, perhaps, if this kind of practice continues of an escalation in ongoing efforts to diplomatically isolate Taiwan and to demonstrate that China believes that it has sovereignty over Taiwan. And, you know, it is disturbing to think that China might be claiming to have the final say over who can even travel there.

NK: The inquiry into foreign interference in Canada has just resumed its work in Ottawa, as you likely know. Do you think that there are lessons to be learned from your experience, lessons that should come up in that work of the inquiry?

RP: Well, I don't think that what I've experienced comes even close to some of the serious forms of foreign interference that we've heard about in recent years and months and that that commission is looking into. But I think that it's important for these kinds of actions to be called out and exposed. My concern is less about me because my employer is not going to do anything about it. I'm a tenured professor and of course the government's not going to do anything about it, I'm a private individual. My concern is that other people might be working for organizations that might be more susceptible to this kind of mild intimidation. And I hope that that's not the case. But I think one of the ways of countering this is to expose it and how ridiculous it is.

NK: Former CSIS Director Dick Fadden, has been a guest on this program a number of times, is leading a group of former Canadian intelligence officers on a trip to build ties with Taiwan this week. What's the signal that the Chinese government should take do you think, from a trip like that?

RP: Again, these are all private individuals. You know, I think that there is significant interest in Taiwan in Canada. Obviously, the government of Canada walks a very, very careful line because formally it doesn't have diplomatic relations with Taiwan, but it wants status quo in the Taiwan Strait and it doesn't support what China has been doing, threatening Taiwan. All of these private individuals that you mentioned. Obviously, they, too, are interested in the situation of Taiwan. They may or may not be demonstrating their support for Taiwan by travelling there. But certainly, there should be no impediment to Canadians, certainly private Canadians travelling to Taiwan. There is no restriction on doing so. And for the Chinese to suggest that they should be able to determine who can travel to Taiwan is pretty outrageous.

NK: Is there something that you think Canada and other countries should be doing differently?

RP: I think that Taiwan needs the kind of support that it has increasingly been receiving. But listen, Taiwan is at the very edge of a geopolitical struggle right now. It's a fascinating place, a very vibrant society, a very vibrant democracy. People in Taiwan do not want to be part of the People's Republic of China. They also don't want to provoke a big fight with China. They want the status quo, which is basically like de facto independence. And they're trying to find a way to be able to preserve that in the face of increasing threats from China. So, any support that Canada can provide with regard to economic cooperation, other kinds of cooperation, all of that, I think is very much welcomed in Taiwan.

NK: Professor Paris, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you.

RP: Thank you.

CH: Roland Paris is the director of the Graduate School of Public and International Affairs at the University of Ottawa and a former foreign policy adviser to the Prime Minister. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music: Meditative instrumental]

Mark Wasyliw

CH: He was elected to Manitoba's Legislative Assembly in 2019 and again in 2023. But yesterday, Mark Wasyliw was kicked out of the provincial NDP caucus. In a statement, NDP Caucus chair Mike Moyes said, quote, The decision came after our caucus learned that MLA Wasyliw's business partner is acting as Peter Nygard's, criminal defence lawyer. MLA Wasyliw's failure to demonstrate good judgement does not align with our caucus principles of mutual respect and trust, unquote. Peter Nygard, of course, is the former fashion mogul who was sentenced to 11 years in prison for sexual assault last week. Yesterday, moments after that press release was issued, Mark Wasyliw, who spoke to the CBC.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK WASYLIW: You know, honestly, I'm a bit relieved. I've been seeing things this past year that's really been unnerving. Wab Kinew is a dysfunctional and toxic leader and he's created a dysfunctional and toxic legislature and culture and not having to be part of that, I'm a little, quite frankly, relieved.

IAN FROESE: Toxic and dysfunctional, you just said. What examples do you have that embody that?

MARK WASYLIW: Wab's a bully and he cannot convince people to do things. He needs to pressure them, bully them, demean them. And you're seeing a lot of staff leaving because of it. But that was always there. If you look at, when he was in the opposition leader's office, a lot of people were leaving there. He couldn't keep staff. And we were on an upswing. You know, caucus no longer discusses issues. There's no debate or discussion about the direction of the party. The caucus had no input into policy or the platform this past election. And so, this government is not concerned about policy. Is not concerned about good governance. It is solely concerned with public relations and getting re-elected. And, you know, Manitobans didn't vote for this, right? They voted for change. And there's a lot of bewildered new Democrats right now that are calling me, emailing me, saying, you know what, I didn't vote for this. This is not my government and I'm going to stick around. I'm going to be their voice.

IAN FROESE: You also called him a bully. What examples do you have of that?

MARK WASYLIW: He's somebody that will get into screaming matches with MLA's in the hallway and will berate them in private and talk about how he's the leader. He's the premier. You have to listen to him. You have to do... There's no attempt at listening to people. There's no attempt at meeting them where they are. It's his way or you're out. I don't respond well to that. I never have. And he's not somebody that could pressure or bully me in any way. The other thing you'll see with Wab is that he has a very demeaning way of speaking to cabinet ministers, staff. He will basically make people feel small and it creates a toxic environment. The staff under him in the leader's office have taken on that type of toxicity and they very much act in the same way. And you hear complaints from chiefs of staff and other sort of high ranking administration things that they're being belittled and abused and bullied.

CH: That was former NDP MLA Mark Wasyliw speaking to CBC Winnipeg's Ian Froese. Speaking to reporters this afternoon. Premier Kinew said, quote, You can be affiliated with our government team, the people making political decisions in Manitoba or you can be affiliated with Peter Nygard. You can't do both, unquote. He also denied bullying or raising his voice with his colleagues. The Manitoba Association of Crown Attorneys issued a statement today saying they condemned the party's rationale for the expulsion of the MLA. Mr. Wasyliw will continue to represent the Fort Garry riding as an independent.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Wild Rice Pest

CH: Phyllis Smith says she and elders in her community have never seen a harvest this bad before. Ms. Smith is a wild rice producer from the community of Pinehouse in northern Saskatchewan. She says she usually picks hundreds of bags, but that on a recent harvest they barely made 15. And Sheridan Hamilton is struggling too. She's seeing worm like creatures all over her crop on Morin Lake. Saskatchewan's Ministry of Agriculture told our CBC colleagues it's aware of the situation and will need to test live samples to figure out what the unidentified past is. Here's some of what Sheridan Hamilton said about her situation.

SOUNDCLIP

SHERIDAN HAMILTON: I've only been at this for three years, but versus last year, we had a bumper crop year where you could see the crop all over the fields, in the rivers. This year, the plants are they're not as much, a lot drowned this year from the rising and lowering water levels, which happens naturally. So, it looks like the crop is there. But then when you get out there, all of the kernels are eaten, like eaten by worms. They usually have like a rice kernel in there and every single one of them, the husks are empty and they're just worms covering the crop. It's something none of us have ever seen out here before. Like even the other harvesters who have been at this for decades. Harvest is very come and go. Some years it's really good and some years it's not. It's just if the water levels are raising or lowering this year and it's organic, so we're not allowed to mess with the water levels or, you know, spray pesticides. It's just what nature does. So, my first year was an okay year. My second year was a bumper crop year, like we haven't seen it in like 20 years in the community. And then this year is also been a weird year. We've never seen this in the community, just like a ton of worms. They were here last year, the worms, but there was so much crop that they were able, we were still able to have like kernels that had rice in them. And then this year, since the plants drowned, they had not a lot of rice seeds, so they ate it all.

SAMANDA BRACE: So, what does that mean for you?

SHERIDAN HAMILTON: We don't know. So usually we're harvesting for like a couple of weeks and usually get a few picks out of the rice. You know, you pick it once and you leave it for 2 to 3 weeks and then they pick it again. This year we sent our guys out and they came back with just empty, empty bags. Usually the bags are about 50 pounds filled with rice and they were light as a feather. They were just empty. So usually on bad years like this, you would just pick enough to reseed your fields and then hope next year would be better. But we could hardly even pick enough rice to reseed one field, never mind six. So, it's been very different. Here in like the more in Lake Reserve area, there's lots of Indigenous harvesters who have been doing it for decades and our families done it before us. And I've been talking to them and we all don't have rice.

CH: Wild rice grower Sheridan Hamilton speaking to CBC Saskatchewan's Samanda Brace.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Finland Pen & Paper

Guest: Minna Peltopuro

CH: It can be a real challenge for parents to keep their kids from spending all their time on screens looking at social media. But it turns out there's actually a really easy solution. Simply move to Riihimaki, Finland. A few years ago, that town cast aside books and went fully digital inside the classroom. But now schools there have made an about face. This year, teachers in several classes began teaching exclusively using pen and paper without the use of screens. And that's just the beginning. Minna Peltopuro is a clinical neuropsychologist who's involved in the initiative. We reached her in Riihimaki.

NK: Minna, I know students in Riihimaki are about a month into their new school year now. And this new reality, this new plan. How is it going?

MINNA PELTOPURO: It seems everything is going very well compared to last year at this time.

NK: Do you give letter grades in Finland? What grade would you give it?

MP: We have grades from four. One is the worst and to 10, it's top one. And I think it's something nine and a half.

NK: Nine and a half. Okay. That's a pretty, pretty good grade. Hopefully they can keep it up the rest of the year. I know, Minna, you're a neuro psychologist, so there's interest for you from that aspect. But you also have a son who just started grade seven. What were you seeing that made you interested in this issue?

MP: Well, my son is now in seventh grade, but he was last year in sixth. And when he started this year, all of a sudden, all the books were digital. And he was all the time on a computer. There were headaches and tiredness.

NK: It's interesting because, you know, Finland has always been at the forefront. You know, look how far ahead they are embracing technology, it's the wave of the future. How do you feel about all of that now?

MP: Well, I think it's a very good thing to be in front of everything but in this case, I think when all traditional methods of teaching suddenly went away, it's a kind of a thing when all the research this is done in front of our eyes and without any good planning or risk managing. So probably it would be wise that we take little steps and not...

NK: They went too far, too fast.

MP: Yes, I think so. Yeah.

NK: So, you noticed these changes in your son. You wrote a letter in local media to say how you were feeling. What did you want to get across in that letter?

MP: Well, I wrote about my worry as a mother, but also as a neuropsychologist. So, the brains, that's this adolescence brains are not finished yet. And what is very much screen time. Thus, to the brains...

NK: Their brains are still developing, you wanted to underline. And then you got a call to be involved in this project, which was already getting started through the work you did on this project, you also heard from teachers. What kinds of things did they tell you about what they were seeing and experiencing in their classrooms?

MP: Many teachers told that multitasking was often going on, so while they were doing math, children were, some of them are playing and then coming back to do actually what they were supposed to do.

NK: So yeah, multitasking can be a good thing, but it sounds like in this case it was bad. They're doing their work in the classroom, but also opening all their other apps and chatting with their friends. They're distracted.

MP: Yeah, and actually multitasking is not a very good thing when considering this young age. Because it's a huge task to their brains and the brains are not finished yet. So, they cannot manage this sifting attention between tasks. So, when considering learning it's very bad and concentration cannot keep up and eventually child get tired and cannot learn.

NK: They need to focus. [MP: Yes]. What are you hearing from those teachers now about what they're seeing in their classrooms with these changes?

MP: Well, many say the concentration is more or better in the classrooms. And children are doing what they're supposed to do. So, and actually one teacher just said a lot more social conversations between students because when they were bored, they used to go to do something with a computer and now they are chatting, etc...

NK: That can get you into trouble in class too.

MP: Yes, that's true. But it's probably more what people should do.

NK: Yeah. Suddenly talking in classes is a good thing once you compare it to the alternative. Obviously, we know a lot about and we've talked a lot about the negative impact of being on screens for too long too often. But when we're talking about pen and paper physical books, are you working with any evidence that it actually helps students learn better?

MP: Yes. There are many research showing that particularly reading comprehension is much better in traditional books. That's because comprehension is more deep when you have books and there are more scanning, when you have digital device.

NK: They are actually reading the words as opposed to just scrolling or scanning their eyes on the page.

MP: Yeah. Yeah.

NK: I understand it's only math classes and languages are being taught this way. Is the plan to add other classes soon?

MP: Yes, because of the reading comprehension. So, I think next year there will be a lot more subjects to be traditional books again.

NK: I asked about the teachers. How are the students taking all of this?

MP: Some like it very much and then some hate it. So, but I think many are starting to see that they actually learn better.

NK: What are the ones who hate it saying?

MP: They would like to be able to play, play more with computers and well, they hate to carry bags that are very heavy because of books.

NK: I remember those days. Minna, thank you.

MP: Thank you.

CH: Minna Peltopuro is a clinical neuropsychologist and we reached her in Riihimaki, Finland.

[Music: Happy guitar instrumental]

FOA: Hobbyhorse Competition

CH: Not everyone who dreams of riding a horse gets the chance. Horses need open air and space. They're expensive. And if you can't afford horse diapers, they can be a hassle to clean up after. But really, anyone can ride a horse. You just need a bit of imagination and a plush horse head on a stick. It's a pastime called hobbyhorsing. And it's become so popular in some places there are organized competitions with categories like jumping and dressage. In fact, this weekend, Germany held its first ever hobbyhorse games in Frankfurt. That reminded us of an interview our former host, Carol Off did in 2017 about the popularity of the phenomenon in Finland. It was the subject of a documentary called "Hobbyhorse Revolution". The film's director, Selma Vilhunen, and one of the hobbyhorses, Alisa Aarniomaki joined her in the studio. Here's part of their conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

CAROL OFF: We have some other guests here in the studio with us. We have hobbyhorses.

SELMA VILHUNEN: Yeah.

CO: Can we see them? Alisa, let me see your hobbyhorse.

ALISA AANIOMAKI: Yeah, just a second.

CO: This hobbyhorse’s name is…

AA: This is Verna

CO: Verna. And this is?

SV: This is Helga.

CO: Alisa, describe your horse for people who can't see it?

AA: She has a white head and brown neck. Well it's from very, very soft fabric and it's actually kind of realistic hair, which isn't very usual among hobbyhorses. It's like an extension — hair extension — made for humans. Glued eyes, glued nose.

CO: Glued on. And then of course, a stick.

AA: Yeah of course.

CO: Describe how you actually ride a hobby horse.

AA: Well of course the basics, the stick is between your legs and by the other hand you like it hold the reins. And just I don't know just straighten your ankles whenever you're like making a step.

CO: Do you want to show us?

AA: All right. [laughter]

SV: This is radio.

CO: And Selma, you can describe what she's doing. You’ve got the horse — the stick — between your legs.

SV: She's walking and… And she's having her horse in a nice circle and kind of rounding the neck. Now we’re walking again and this is trotting.

CO: That’s wonderful. Now you are out of breath because, in fact, that is quite a workout you've just done here in the studio.

AA: Yeah, I guess. You may not use your back or your abs or anything on your upper body to do the movement. So, it's only the legs and that's why I'm so exhausted.

CO: What is the relationship with the hobbyhorse? Why can't you just perform without having the actual object with you — The horse?

AA: This is just I don't know weird to say. But I guess it looks more weird. It feels like there's some context when I use the hobbyhorse for it. It feels a bit more realistic because if I don't use the hobbyhorse for it, it just feels like nothing.

CH: Hobbyhorser Alisa Aarniomaki speaking to a former host Carol Off back in 2017.

[Music: Theme]

CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

[Music: Theme]

The AIH Transcript For September 17, 2024

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