Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2024

The AIH Transcript for September 12, 2024

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KOKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Standardized operating procedures. Seven years after her son was killed in the Manchester Arena bombing, a mother describes the moment British Parliament finally looked at legislation requiring venues to be better prepared for potential attacks.

CH: The way, way, upper class. A billionaire becomes one of the first private astronauts to complete a spacewalk that has Canadian astronaut Dave Williams pondering the possibilities now on the horizon.

NK: Flashpoint. An Italian art buyer tells us about the phone call that confirmed his portrait of Winston Churchill wasn't his at all, but the one that was stolen from an Ottawa hotel.

CH: Taking up residence. Conservative MPs tell Canada's envoy to New York to pack his bags, despite his insistence that he had nothing to do with the decision to sell one multi-million dollar diplomatic crash pad and replace it with another.

NK: An award both abhorred and adored. Researchers jump for joy and maybe slump with self-consciousness as the IG Nobel Prizes are announced. Our guest says research that makes you laugh can still make you think.

CH: And uncharted waddlers. A young penguin born in captivity goes missing during its first ever ocean swim and somehow survives a catastrophic typhoon. With unruffled feathers. As It Happens, the Thursday edition radio that's pleased she passed that test with non-flying colours.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Manchester Victim's Mom, Private Spacewalk, Karsh Italian Buyer, Japan Penguin Rescue

Manchester Victim's Mom

Guest: Figen Murray

CH: It's been more than seven years since Figen Murray's son, Martyn Hett went to see Ariana Grande perform at the Manchester Arena. And today, legislation bearing his name was introduced in British Parliament.

SOUNDCLIP

LUCY POWELL: Today, Mr. Speaker, we introduce the Terrorism Protection of Premises Bill, otherwise known as Martyn's Law. Meeting the promise, the Prime Minister made to Figen Murray, who lost her son Martyn Hett in the Manchester Arena attack.

CH: MP Lucy Powell speaking in the British House of Commons today. As you just heard, Martyn's Law is officially called the Terrorism Protection of Premises Bill. It's a long awaited response to the suicide bombing attack that killed 22 people at the concert in May 2017, including 29 year old Martyn Hett. It comes after a years long fight by Martyn's mother and a month after apparent plans of a terror attack on the Vienna stop of Taylor Swift's Aras tour led to three shows being cancelled. We reached Figen Murray outside Manchester.

NK: Figen you've heard that before. Now, you heard that today. What was happening to you? What did you do in that moment when you heard Lucy Powell say those words?

FIGEN MURRAY: Well, obviously, it was quite a momentous day for us with this announcement. And to hear that in parliament, in front of other people, that was just really a very poignant moment for me, really as a person.

NK: Do you, what do you say to yourself in that moment? How did you react or did you just hold it all in?

FM: It was a real you know; it was a real 'wow' moment because we've been campaigning for five and a half years. I started it on my own as a, just as a bereaved mother. Somebody with a really big broken heart. And I did it as a mum. And to get to this point after the many years of campaigning is just phenomenal.

NK: Give our listeners a sense of how Martyn's Law will change things. What will it mean, practically speaking?

FM: So, at the moment, the general public tend to not normally think about security when they are out and about. Often, we think it's a given; it's happens automatically. But the truth is there is no legislation in the UK or any other country I know of. That actually it's mandated that venues have to, by law, keep their customers and staff safe from terrorism. And Martin's law is exactly that. It basically means that what they are wanting people to do is that they train their staff in very basic counter-terrorism training. We are also asking venues to do a risk assessment inside and outside the premises and anything they identify as a risk that they deal with that. They are asking people to have an action plan ready so that, you know, in case of an attack, everybody from the cleaning person to the CEO knows exactly what to do and how to get themselves, their customers and colleagues, into safety.

NK: Were you surprised as you took on this fight, Figen, that venues weren't already doing this?

FM: Totally. It took me totally by surprise because I never even thought of security. You know, I used to go myself to concerts and venues, saw people in high vis jackets who obviously worked at the venue and automatically assumed they are trained staff. But often people are not trained and they're just stewards showing people where to sit and where the toilets are or where they can get food. They're not necessarily security trained at all.

NK: It has to still become law, as you've said. And then there is the matter of implementation. What's your sense of whether these venues are going to be on board? Have they reacted so far?

FM: I go and speak at a lot of security events and expos and conferences, and the support I've had from the security industry has been absolutely phenomenal. Everybody has come behind me and literally is supporting the legislation. People are waiting, a lot of venues in the UK have already made huge changes to their security facility in preparation for the legislation. In Manchester, for instance, most of the venues in the inner city, they are implementing Martyn's law ahead of the legislation, even coming in because they're so keen to keep people safe in Manchester. Especially where the attack happened, where Martyn and the other died. So, Manchester is already very ahead of the cities. But once the legislation is in, I think the bigger venues will do this change very quickly because they are ready. But there will be quite likely an implementation period. And that is important to have because you can't just dish out sanctions for non-conforming straightaway. People need time for changing things and implementing things.

NK: One of the other things you did to help make this a reality was walk hundreds of kilometres from the site of the attack, the site where your son and so many others died all the way to Downing Street. You've poured so much of yourself into this. And you know, you talked about being the heartbroken mother and then having to take on this work and pushing. Now that you've come to this point, what do you, where do you put all of that work and emotion now? It can be hard, I imagine, to let go even though it is a success.

FM: Yeah, I don't think I'm going to let go straightaway anyway because there's still probably, the work has to continue. This is only the first reading in government, there's still quite a few processes in government to be done. Until the king signs off for legislation and it becomes official law, then of course, this 18 months or so implementation period. So, I'll definitely be hanging around the industry and continuing talking about the legislation until then. But I will eventually slow down and then maybe finally start my grieving for Martyn properly because I've not really given myself the time, because this work is just so important because, you know, I've got my son's ashes on a bookshelf here in my office. No, no person should be in that situation. It's heartbreaking and it's life changing. And that's why I want to work so hard to get this done. So, no one is in my position.

NK: I'm so sorry for your loss Figen. This law, as we've said, it, is named for your son. What do you want our listeners to know about him?

FM: Martyn was just so life embracing. You know, he absolutely enjoyed life and he was such a positive person. And he had this incredible ability to make everybody feel that he's their best friend. And that's a real skill to have in a human being. And, you know, I really valued that about him. But his kindness was the most important thing for me. He was just a decent human being. And I know I'm biased as his mom, but he really, really was.

NK: Figen, I appreciate your time. Thank you. Please take care.

Thank you so much.

CH: Figen Murray is a campaigner for Martyn's Law and the mother of Martyn Hett, who was one of 22 people killed in a terrorist attack at a 2017 Ariana Grande concert in Manchester. We reached her outside Manchester.

[Music: Electronic instrumental]

Private Spacewalk

Guest: Dave Williams

CH: History was made today way up above us. For the first time, private astronauts. Billionaire entrepreneur Jared Isaacman and SpaceX engineer Sarah Gillis walked in space. Mr. Isaacman was the first to emerge from the Polaris Dawn Craft. Here's what he said.

SOUNDCLIP

JARED ISAACMAN: Back at home, we all have a lot of work to do but from here, this sure looks like a perfect world.

CH: Dave Williams is a former Canadian astronaut. He has spent more time spacewalking than anyone else from this country. We reached him in Oakville, Ontario.

NK: Dave Williams, when you heard that, how did that hit you?

DAVE WILLIAMS: Well, that was pretty spectacular. It takes me right back to doing a spacewalk myself. There's no question looking at the Earth from such unique perspective gives us an opportunity to pause and reflect on where things are at.

NK: I would imagine it's breathtaking. But do you think he prepped that line? I mean, you have something in your mind, I would imagine, because it's an important moment and he knows it's going to be recorded.

DW: You know, certainly for this mission, this is such a historic moment, looking at the first private sector spacewalks and thinking about the direction that we're going to be going in in the future. But it's also an opportunity to pause and look back at our global village and realize that there's no borders between countries. We can see from space quite clearly, we're all in this together.

NK: From the first time you stepped out there. Do you still play that film in your mind?

DW: There's absolutely no question. Flying in space is a remarkable experience but getting to go outside and see the Earth from such unique perspective. It's spectacular. There's really no words to capture the magnificent beauty of the experience.

NK: So, the awe is the same, it sounds like. But how it actually unfolds is different between, quite a bit from what you have been able to do and what we saw this morning. I watched a bit of it, but for those who haven't seen it, can you describe for our listeners what these two private astronauts had to do to pull this off?

DW: Yes, this is a remarkable achievement. In many ways it reflects technology for the future with a heads up display inside the spacesuit. But in other ways, it's going back to the past where they used umbilicals to provide the life support to the crew members when they were doing their spacewalks. All four crew members within the capsule were depressurized to the vacuum of space, very similar to what we did in the Gemini program back in the 1960s. So, in some ways the technology is new in other ways, the umbilical base technology is something we've done before, but this is certainly the direction of the future.

NK: Things are changing. You've talked about the future a couple of times. Still, though were you concerned at all that the people on this mission team were not professionals?

DW: You know, I think the Space X team, I would categorize them as highly professional. This crew trained extensively for the mission, doing a spacewalk is not a trivial task. The crew was up to the task and they demonstrated the technology that Space X has developed worked flawlessly.

NK: As you as you think of what the future is going to be and certainly, you know, public/private partnerships are important. Funding like this is important. Expanding the way programs work, I think many would agree, are important. But do you worry that tourism or flaunting wealth for some people, frankly, is going to overtake things rather than the important research and science that astronauts would like to see?

DW: Well, I think, first of all, the private space program has also been involved in research. In fact, the Polaris Dawn crew is doing space medicine experiments in collaboration with NASA. So, this is a direction of the future. That's part of the growing global space economy, which today is roughly 350 billion, going to 1.1 trillion over the next 20 years. And of course, the major space faring nations of the world, of which Canada is one of them, participate in that growing economy. So, from my perspective, this is about new technology, new jobs, new opportunities as humans go farther and stay longer in space.

NK: Do you think that more private investment is going to mean less public investment in space exploration?

DW: I think there's going to be a balance between the two, and that will shift over time. It's really exciting, though, looking at this millennium. It sounds almost like science fiction, but this is the millennium in which the human species we humans will be living on other planets in our solar system. We're excited that Canada will be the second country in the world to send someone to the moon. With Jeremy Hanson, part of the Artemis Two crew next year and Jenny Sidey as backup. So, these are the directions that we're going to be taking in the future. And now with the private sector working in parallel with the government, it'll be exciting to see what happens.

NK: The spacewalk today is part of a bigger Polaris program aimed at achieving Elon Musk's goal of populating Mars one day. Do you have any concerns of what might happen to those kinds of programs to space exploration as a whole? If so, much of it is concentrated in the hands of very wealthy entrepreneurs who aren't accountable to the public the way governments are?

DW: Well, you know, I think what we're seeing is not only entrepreneurs involved, but the private sector, corporations which are governed by boards, which hold the organizations accountable. And in fact, there's been extensive collaboration between those private sector companies and the government programs. So now it's an opportunity to create a synergistic exploration of space where we have the private sector working in collaboration with the public sector, to the credit of the private astronauts, who have been involved who spend millions on these missions. They've all participated and funded a wide range of research experiments that have been done in space.

NK: I think we all, whether we're astronauts or not or scientists or not look up and dream. You know, when we look at the stars and the moon. When you look up there now and think ahead, 50 years paints a picture what you think space is going to look like.

DW: Well, I think 50 years from now, we'll see humans living on habitats on the surface of the moon. And I think we will see humans on Mars, whether it's in 50 years. I don't know. I hope so, because they'd love to be around to see that happen.

NK: This crew is heading back soon to Earth. What is that return going to be like for them?

DW: You know, it'll be the ride of a lifetime. The mission's not over by any stretch. It's a big thing when you're doing a spacewalk. You're back inside the vehicle. You close the hatch, you re-pressurize. Moment of excitement, high fives are exchanged all the way around. But the mission is still ongoing. But I think it'll be the ride of lifetime coming back as well.

NK: Do you miss it?

DW: There's no question. When Jared came out of the spacecraft, you know, there's no airlock. So, when he came out of the spacecraft and was holding onto the handrail and you see the earth in the distance and you could see from the top of the image The Night-Time coming down. So, it was finally dark behind Jerry. That's unbelievable. I have to say, I was a little envious at that point.

NK: Dave Williams, a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you.

DW: My pleasure.

CH: Dave Williams is a former Canadian astronaut and he's in Oakville, Ontario.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Karsh Italian Buyer

Guest: Nicola Cassinelli

CH: From Canada to England to Italy and soon back to Canada. That is the trajectory of the famous portrait of British Prime Minister Winston Churchill taken by the late Canadian photographer Yousuf Karsh. It is known as the "Roaring Lion". Two years ago, it was reported stolen from the Chateau Laurier. It was a shocking heist. But now, at last, the portrait is about to check back in to the Ottawa Hotel. Yesterday on the program, Nil talked to Jerry Fielder and Mr. Karsh's longtime assistant and the director of the Karsh Estate. Here's what he said about what the Chateau Laurier meant to the photographer and his wife.

SOUNDCLIP

JERRY FIELDER: The history for them and for all of us goes back a long ways. So, this was not just a photograph that was taken. This was something when the Karsh's left their apartment and the studio, we closed the studio Mr. Karsh, wanted to leave something meaningful.

CH: But last night, we also told you that police had found the stolen "Roaring Lion" in Italy. It turns out the man who bought it is Nicola. Cassinelli. He is a lawyer and art collector. And he'll tell us what he knew and didn't know about the photo. We reached him in Genoa, Italy.

NK: Nicola, How did it feel to have the "Roaring Lion" in your living room?

NICOLA CASSINELLI: I mean, it was weird, you know, it was like having the Mona Lisa in your living room. Something doesn't happen every day, of course. And I mean, it was a great, a great emotion because I, I bought online, at an online auction a signed copy of the "Roaring Lion". But of course, I didn't know that I was buying that copy. The one that Yousuf Karsh personally gifted to the Chateau Laurier. But you know that there are several copies of this portrait. Many of them are signed. I later realized that I was buying a very special one.

NK: And we're going to talk more about how you figured all of that out, how you first learned that. But what drew you to this initially? You know, were you a fan of Yousuf Karsh?

NC: I am a small art collector. I like art a lot. I like contemporary and modern photographs a lot. And I used to browse the online the auction catalogues quite often. And in May 2022, I was browsing a catalogue of artists photographs auction in London, and I saw that a signed copy of the "Roaring Lion" was there and it was extremely nice aesthetically, but also a piece full of history because I knew that that portrait was taken immediately after an historical speech of Sir Winston Churchill at the Parliament of Canada in 1941. And the expression that Mr. Churchill has in that photo is simply unique. And so, I was immediately attracted, even if I wasn't there, looking for something in particular. And so, I bought this portrait that was hanging in my, in my living room for almost two years without me knowing that it was a so special copy of the portrait.

NK: Can you tell us how much you paid for it?

NC: I think I paid 5,200 pounds plus commission.

NK: This is a reputable London auction house. As you said, you bought it online in May of 2022. When did you first realize that something might be wrong, that this might have been stolen.

NC: In October 2022, I received a phone call from the auction house asking me not to sell or transfer that portrait because they told me at that time there was an ongoing investigation about the theft of a copy of the same portrait in Canada. And so, that was the first time I knew about the theft at the Chateau Laurier. And so, okay, I just confirmed then that I had no intention to sell the portrait that was hanging in my home. In I think November 2023, I was called back by the Auction House, who asked my permission to give the Canadian police my contacts because they wanted to speak with me. And of course, I gave me my permission. And in January this year I had the opportunity to speak a couple of times with Detective Geller, with the Ottawa Police, who explained to me that, according to his evidence, that my portrait was the stolen one. And so, I decided to go to the Carabinieri. So, the police force here in Italy, the Heritage Protection Unit, and I explained them that they had spoken with a Canadian police officer who told me that he suspected that my portrait was the stolen one. And I told them that I wanted them to do all the forensics investigation together with the Canadian police in order to check if, in fact that was the stolen one. And after a few weeks, they called me to confirm me that it was the stolen one. After some forensic examinations of the portrait. So, at that time I decided to return it to Canada because of the historical value it has for the Canadian people, for the town of Ottawa.

NK: Did you have a choice to give it back or not?

NC: Yeah, I have a choice because I am a good faith buyer. So, I bought in good faith and I was not obliged to give it back. They would have needed to start a lawsuit against me to obtain it, but I didn't want it to happen. I just wanted to...

NK: You wanted to do the right thing it sounds like.

NC: Return it, yes, because I don't buy art to exploit it. I like art. An artwork is, I mean, cannot be construed as just private property. I hope I have the opportunity to visit Ottawa very soon and to see the 'Roaring Lion" in it's original... Exactly.

NK: Was it hard to let it go?

NC: Yes, it was hard. But I thought that being a part of history is much more valuable than keeping that portrayed for me. You know, it's something incredible. I can confess that the day I gave the portrait to the Carabinieri, I also bought online a replica copy of this, of this portrait for a few dollars so that I still have a replica of that. That is quite nice.

NK: Did you, were you compensated, you know, for returning the one you bought?

NC: Partially. Partially. I've been partially reimbursed. Yes.

NK: There's going to be a ceremony in Italy, I believe, later this month. Are you going to be there? What is that going to entail?

NC: Yes, I will be there in Rome, next Thursday. And they will materially, I mean, return the portrait to Canadian officials. Yes.

NK: Nicola, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

NC: Thank you very much. Thank you.

CH: That was lawyer and art collector Nicola Cassinelli, who unknowingly brought a famous portrait of Winston Churchill, which was stolen from the Chateau Laurier in Ottawa two years ago. He's in Genoa, Italy.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

Japan Penguin Rescue

CH: Penguin. Penguin. Penguin. Pen the penguin. Pen the... oh I'm on. Here goes. It was a perilous predicament for a puzzled paddler. Pen the Peng-wing in August. She. What? I can't believe I just... Benedict Cumberbatch. Sorry. Let me explain. I use Benedict Cumberbatch as a curse here in the studio, so I don't accidentally swear with my microphone on. But in this case, I'm also cursing Benedict Cumberbatch because of how he pronounced 'penguin' while narrating a BBC documentary.

SOUNDCLIP

BENEDICT CUMBERBATCH: And the last thing you might expect to see here. Is peng-wings.

CH: You see? Or hear listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

BENEDICT CUMBERBATCH: So why are these woodlands so attractive to peng-wings?

CH: Computer enhance.

SOUNDCLIP

BENEDICT CUMBERBATCH: So attractive to peng-wings.

CH: Look, I'm not a fool. I love Benedict Cumberbatch, but he led us all astray with that Peng-wings business. He knocked me way off course. Speaking of which, though, a penguin went way off course on August 25th. Her name is Pen and she's six years old. She was born and raised in captivity and is part of a travelling zoo in Japan. And that day, Pens keeper took her swimming in the ocean for the first time in her life. And it went great until Pen freaked out and swam away. There was almost zero chance that a zoo penguin would survive in the wild. And worse yet, while she was out at sea, a powerful typhoon hit. But her keeper told CNN, quote, She survived because of the typhoon. It was almost miraculous timing, unquote. What he means is that there were no fishing boats or fishing nets to endanger her. Plus, the rain provided her with drinking water. And by the time she was discovered swimming near a beach almost two full weeks later, she had travelled 45km through a violent storm to wind up just 10 minutes from where she'd been lost. So, providence pardoned that precious punch drunk peng-wing...pen... Ah, Benedict Cumberbatch!

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Part 2: Alberto Fujimori Death, Stephen Miller Venezuela, Clark NYC Residence, IG Nobels

Alberto Fujimori Death

Guest: Jo-Marie Burt

CH: After his death yesterday at the age of 86. Alberto Fujimori is being remembered today. But how he's being remembered depends on who you ask. Mr. Fujimori is a former president of Peru. A lot of people credit him with saving the country's economy in the 90s and making Peru safer. But he also served time for corruption and human rights crimes, including his role in the death squad killings of 25 people. Today, the current Peruvian president, Dina Boluarte, announced that Mr. Fujimori would be given a state funeral and declared three days of mourning. Flags flying at half mast, and that's not sitting well with people inside and outside Peru. Jo- Marie Burt is a senior fellow with the Washington Office on Latin America. She was also an observer to Mr. Fujimori's 2009 trial. We reached her in Alexandria, Virginia.

NK: Jo-Marie, in your view, is this a sad day for Peru?

JO MARIE BURT: Well, I mean, you know, the death of anyone is always sad. However, the legacy of Alberto Fujimori, I think it goes beyond the simple emotions of happy or sad. This is a person who, even though he was last in power 24 years ago, but he and his legacy continue to dominate Peruvian politics, Peruvian... even sort of cultural life. And, you know, he's very controversial. He's loved by some, hated by many. So, I think more than sad or happy, I think there's a complex legacy that Peruvians are in the midst of grappling with.

NK: We know the current president relies on political support from Keiko Fujimori, Alberto Fujimori's daughter and leader of the right wing Fuerza Popular party in Peru. So how much of that reliance is responsible for what you're seeing today?

JMB: Well, I think it’s part of it. I think the current alliance has certainly strengthened Keiko Fujimori's hand both in the sort of the current political lines and projecting towards the future where she really wants to land up in the presidential office, right. but, you know, Keiko Fujimori has been plotting the sort of revision of her father's history and his legacy and how it connects with her own political life for, you know, almost two decades now. So, it has both a longer and a more recent history, I think.

NK: A former lawmaker, Víctor Andrés García Belaúnde, told Peruvian TV, quote, "Alberto Fujimori family must renounce state honours to avoid opening more wounds", unquote. It does not seem that that is likely to happen, but I wonder what you're hearing about how families of the victims of the death squad killings are reacting.

JMB: It's you know, I'm glad to hear Belaúnde say that, because it's the rare states person who is, I think, making comments to that effect. But I think that, you know, giving a man who was convicted of grave violations of human rights who was convicted of massive corruption and abuse of authority, who decorated Peruvian institutions, who ran over the rule of law, who murdered, raped and killed, you know, not himself but you know, under his rule, the army engaged in massive violations of human rights. He never demonstrated any repentance at all. So, it really is a slap in the face to the victims who have continued to fight for so many years for truth and for justice. And it's also really kind of a slap in the face for those who believe in democracy, because Fujimori was nothing but the antithesis of democracy his entire political career.

NK: If we go back to when he first came into the national spotlight, there he was a political outsider. He had never held office. In the end, though, he beat a Nobel Prize winner to win the presidency. Why was he so appealing to people then?

JMB: Sure. So, you know, he ran for office in 1990 after Peru had experienced a decade of devastating political violence at the hands of Shining Path and the armed forces. Hundreds of thousands of people were being killed and tortured all over the country. And in the last few years of the government, immediately preceding Fujimori, Alan Garcia, his attempts at economic reform resulted in massive economic crisis and hyperinflation. So, Peru really was a country on the edge. And Fujimori sort of rode that wave of anti-establishment sentiment to power. The other thing that favoured his candidacy in 1990, aside from being sort of this outsider, was his Japanese roots. He's the son of Japanese immigrants. And he looks and talks a little bit more like your average Peruvian with indigenous or mixed race ancestry. So that also played in Fujimori's favour.

NK: Within a few years. As you well know, though, he was able to dissolve Congress with support from the military. He's suspended the Constitution. We've spoken to you on this program before. You were at his human rights abuses trial. He was convicted of the killings of 25 people, the kidnappings of a businessman and a journalist. You were there in that moment to see that he would be held responsible for those crimes. So how do you square that moment with what you're seeing now?

JMB: Yeah. You know, political figures like Fujimori often become sort of avatars for what people want them to be. So, you know, you have to take a complete picture. You can't only talk about his stabilization of the economy without talking about mass comptonization of the population. You can't talk about the battle against the Shining Path without also talking about his massive violations of human rights. You can't talk about, you know, his 10 years in power without also talking about the massive corruption and abuse of power that characterized... it was more than the very essence, really, of his regime.

NK: So, do you think that despite what you're seeing now, the way he is being honoured, that that part of his legacy will be erased?

JMB: Well, this is exactly what Keiko Fujimori and the current factions that are in power right now are attempting to do. You'll you even see this in the schoolbooks that they prohibited schoolbooks from talking about the internal armed conflict. They only want us to talk about the period of terrorism. So there already is this attempt in Peru to rewrite history. But, you know, Peru is still very much a pluralistic society. There are journalists and activists and academics. The victims of Fujimori are not at all silent. So, there's a lot of evidence already out there about what this government was. So, I don't think that they're going to be fully successful at rewriting history. But it is going to be an ongoing battle over Fujimori and his legacy.

NK: Jo-Marie, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

JMB: Thank you for having me. Take care.

CH: Jo-Marie Burt is a senior fellow with the Washington Office on Latin America. We reached her in Alexandria, Virginia.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

Stephen Miller Venezuela

CH: There's been much discussion of the fact checking during Tuesday night's American presidential debate after ABC moderators refuted false claims from Donald Trump about immigrants eating pets and post-birth abortions. But after the debate, the disputes continued in the so-called "spin room", where the candidate's proxies made the rounds with reporters. It was there that Trump adviser Stephen Miller repeated one of the former president's familiar claims that Venezuela's crime rates had plummeted by over 60 per cent, purportedly because the country had released criminals from prisons and those criminals had ended up in the US. But on Tuesday night, Mr. Miller was pressed on that dubious statistic by José María Del Pino, a journalist with the Colombian cable news channel NTN 24.

SOUNDCLIP

STEPHEN MILLER: The crime rate in Venezuela is down, I believe, a little bit over 60 per cent over the last several years.

JOSE MARIA DEL PINO: You trust in the official figures from the Venezuelan dictatorship?

STEPHEN MILLER: If you're a dictator of a poor country with a high crime rate, wouldn't you send your criminals to our open borders?

JOSE MARIA DEL PINO: That wasn't my question. Are you trusting the figures of the dictatorships? Those are Maduro numbers...

STEPHEN MILLER: I am believing that it is in the interests of a criminal dictator to let his criminals out of their jails and come to our country.

JOSE MARIA DEL PINO: Do you have numbers, real numbers, not just dictator numbers?

STEPHEN MILLER: The Venezuelan gangs that... Have you seen the CCTV footage? I have a question. Who do you think? Answer me this...

JOSE MARIA DEL PINO: My family from Venezuela. I know very well the situation of Caracas and many other cities, but I was asking to you about figures. Numbers.

STEPHEN MILLER: The facts are the dead bodies the facts?

JOSE MARIA DEL PINO: Are you saying that Caracas has a lowest crime rate than the USA?

STEPHEN MILLER: The facts are the mutilated bodies. The facts are the people in the morgues that are dead.

JOSE MARIA DEL PINO: I was asking you about Caracas and the numbers in Caracas. Are you trusting the numbers of the dictatorship...

STEPHEN MILLER: I am trusting the fact that Kamala Harris is letting legal immigrants into this country who are raping and murdering children!

JOSE MARIA DEL PINO: I had been very respectful. Why are you yelling?

STEPHEN MILLER: Do you know who? Jocelyn [inaudible]. Do you know who she is? [cross talk] Who is Lincoln Riley. Who is...

JOSE MARIA DEL PINO: Why are you yelling again?

STEPHEN MILLER: Because I'm yelling because children are being raped and murdered.

JOSE MARIA DEL PINO: I was just asking for figures. And you have not replied to me about those figures. [cross talk] Have you trust the numbers of Nicolas Maduro? I'm asking again.

STEPHEN MILLER: I trust ruthless dictator will empty his prisons and send the criminals to our country. [More back and forth between the two men].

STEPHEN MILLER: Do you have any remorse for the dead children? Do you care at all about the dead children!?

JOSE MARIA DEL PINO: Absolutely.

STEPHEN MILLER: We are going to save the lives of our children. We will not let Kamala Harris condemn them to a life of misery, suffering and death. Thank you.

JOSE MARIA DEL PINO: You have not replied my question.

CH: That was Trump adviser Stephen Miller's exchange with NTN 24 reporter José María Del Pino. Since that clip went viral, Mr. Del Pino has declined all interview requests and posted this on social media. Quote, I think the interview speaks for itself. Journalists have a mission to ask questions. We're never the news. What Mr. Miller has or has not said is for you as an audience to judge, unquote.

[Music: Electric instrumental]

Clark NYC Residence

CH: Conservative MPs have told Tom Clark to start packing his bags. The former broadcaster is now Canada's envoy in New York and he testified before a parliamentary committee that he's looking into the decision to replace Canada's old multimillion dollar official residence with a new multimillion dollar official residence. The price tags are eye popping. But global affairs officials insist that in the end, Canadian taxpayers will come out ahead. They've also testified that Mr. Clark was not involved. But today, Conservative MPs asked Tom Clark about an email that they say suggests otherwise. And things really started to get testy when they accused the consul general of saying things that are not true.

SOUNDCLIP

TOM CLARK: Mr. Chair, I will repeat, I had no role whatsoever in deciding to sell the old residence, buying the new residence or its amenities or its location. That email that you're referring to has a couple of addendums to it that I think are important. Number one, it was corrected. That was a person who was not involved in the process of this. I only became aware of this email less than 48 hours ago. I too was taken aback by what was in it because it was simply. Wrong. It was true.

LARRY BLOCK: Mr. Clark, let me stop you right there. I don't believe you. Canadians don't believe you. Are you trying to suggest that a head of mission in any country in the world would be completely shut out, would be completely uninvolved with the acquisition of your own residence? No Canadian believes you, sir. This was not a typo. The email I referenced was sent out June 17th, 2024. The story of the nine million dollar condo on Billionaire's Row became known to the Canadian public on July the 11th. That was a huge embarrassment to the Canadian government, and I'm sure a huge embarrassment to you, Mr. Clark. Your involvement was documented well before. We have the receipts. The department's pathetic attempt to cover up for you was issued on July 25th. After all of the controversy, after all of the pushback from politicians, from Canadians who are struggling to put a roof over their head, who are lined up at food banks, who are starving, and you're sitting on billionaires row sipping coffee from a six thousand dollar coffee machine. You can appreciate how appalling that is to Canadians. So again, sir, I ask for honesty. When did you bring up the need for a new residence?

TOM CLARK: Mr. Chair, I will repeat once again, and please, if you wish, you can put me under oath on this. I had nothing to do with the decision to sell the old O.R. I had nothing to do with the decision to buy the new O.R. I had nothing to do with deciding on amenities or its location.

CH: Canada's Consul General in New York, Tom Clark, taking questions from Conservative MP Larry Block today at a House of Commons committee.

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

IG Nobels

Guest: Kees Moeliker

CH: Spectators throw paper aeroplanes. Speeches have to be under a minute, if you go long eight year old Miss Sweetie Poo will cut you off. It's that time of year again when science's wisest and weirdest, convene for their field's most coveted and feared awards. The IG Nobels, the awards celebrate unusual, some might seem trivial or bizarre or unnecessary advances or possible retreats in science. As the organizers put it, achievements that first make people laugh and then make them think. Kees Moeliker is the European Bureau Chief for the Annals of Improbable Research, which gives out the awards. And he's in Cambridge, Massachusetts for tonight's ceremony.

NK: Kees, it's been a while since you've been able to attend in person. What's it like to be back?

KEES MOELIKER: It's a joy. I mean, I've been part of this since I won the IG Nobel Prize in 2003. I haven't been back in like 15 years. So, seeing all these nice people who organize it in the flesh, it's a real joy. I'm happy.

NK: The winners in the category that you are also a winner of, as you mentioned. This time they exploded a paper bag next to a cat standing on the back of a cow to determine how cows spew their milk. As a biologist, what do you make of their work?

KM: Well, it was in 1948. So back then, animal welfare wasn't a big issue. So, if you see it in that light, in that time, it was, of course, a bridge way to well, to experiment and to learn things. And they did. And they published it. And we discovered this paper or somebody discovered this paper. And it was among the 9000 nominations we get every year. And we decided that this work deserves the prize.

NK: It's amazing and kind of tragic that it was buried so long.

KM: Yeah. Yeah. That's, but thanks to the wonders of Internet. Everything is digitized now, so things pop up. You don't have to go to a library you just can find it using the Internet. That's really, really helpful for us too.

NK: Some of the other notable wins, a study showing the hair on the heads of most people in the Northern hemisphere swirls in the same direction as hair on the heads of most people in the southern hemisphere, that's research from France and Chile. There's one that caught my eye from the States in the physics category, James Liao, for demonstrating and explaining the swimming abilities of a dead trout. That's my favourite. Do you have a favourite?

KM: The Peace Prize, which is always a very important IG Nobel Prize, is given to, posthumously to B.F. Skinner, the famous psychologist, for experiments to see the feasibility of housing live pigeons inside missiles to grade the flight paths of the missiles. Skinner is not among us, but his daughter, Julie Skinner Vargas is here to accept the prize.

NK: And how is she feeling about this honour?

KM: She's very happy. I just spoke to her, like half an hour ago and she's very excited. And she's still very much involved in her father's work.

NK: Some of our listeners will certainly be familiar with the IG Nobel's. We have a tradition of talking about them every year here at As It Happens. But for those who don't know what the ceremony is like, how would you describe it?

KM: Well, when I got my IG Nobel Prize in 2003, I went to Harvard. We're now with MIT. It's a beautiful lecture hall. And there was this ceremony, which is kind of a hybrid between Monty Python's Flying Circus and The Muppet Show. And...

NK: So, so boring. Really boring Night. It sounds like.

KM: Very boring. And people are throwing paper aeroplanes to you all the time. The prize is given to you by real Nobel laureates. So, it's all very important. And then you have only one minute to say thank you or thank you to your father or mother or your professor. It's all a big circus. Yeah.

NK: There's an eight year old to stop you, to cut you off. Maybe some of the award shows. The televised award shows need that in place.

KM: She is so good. I mean, this is an eight year old girl. Every year when your time's up, she comes at you and shouts, "Please stop. I'm bored. Please stop. I'm bored. Please stop. I'm bored". Well, you know, it's an eight year old girl, tells you she's bored and she wants you to stop talking. You stop talking. It's a very, very good mechanism that should be used in, you know, in parliament or for teachers who are boring and things like that.

NK: We mentioned your win in the biology category in the past. Tell our listeners how you earned that recognition.

KM: I was the first to witness and document the phenomenon of homosexual necrophilia in the mallard duck. So that's two ducks having intercourse. One is dead and both of them are of the male sex. So, there's something that well, as a biologist, I'd never heard about and my teachers didn't tell me about this. I was really, really shocked to see. But in the end, I decided to make it known to a few fellow ornithologists and, well, about 6 or 7 people read this paper and then it was history. And then I got this message from the IG Nobel Committee that I'd won. And I was kind of surprised. I said, Shouldn't this call come from Stockholm, Sweden? But I accepted it, of course. The criteria to win this prize is first laugh and then think. And that's something to make more people interested in science and technology in general. And I'm a big fan of good science communication. So, I decided that this is a good thing. So, I accepted the prize with joy. And it's really changed my life in a positive way.

NK: It sounds like a greatest honour of your career or up there at least.

KM: Yeah, it is. Yeah. It made impact. I travel the world with my stuffed duck, and now I'm here at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. I'm happy with this honour.

NK: Well, Kees, congratulations and thank you. I'm really glad we could speak.

KM: Thank you very much.

CH: Kees Moeliker is the European bureau chief for the Annals of Improbable Research, which runs the IG Nobel Awards. We reached him in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

[Music: Upbeat drum instrumental]

Part 3: NL Church Sale, AUS. Wrongful Conviction, Mpox Canadian Vaccines, Salish Sea Noise, FOA: World's Heaviest Plum

NL Church Sale

Guest: Clarence Molloy

CH: For less than 50 thousand dollars. Holy Rosary Church in Newfoundland's picturesque Portugal Cove South can be yours. But you should know in advance that you won't actually be able to get inside. The locals have changed the locks. The church is for sale as part of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Saint John's attempt to pay 104 million dollars in settlements for years of sexual abuse at the notorious Mount Cashel Orphanage. The last mass at Holy Rosary took place on September 1st, and afterwards the locks were changed. Clarence Molloy has been the mayor of Portugal Cove South for 49 years. He now carries one of two keys to the church. We reached him in St John's.

NK: Mayor, any chance you're going to use the key that you have to let a prospective buyer into Holy Rosary?

CLARENCE MOLLOY: No. No chance of anybody getting into the church to buy it. If we can stop them at all.

NK: Why not?

CM: Well, we feel that we, after raising 134 thousand dollars to repair to this church, just in the last few years and right now that they're selling the church, apparently for 48 thousand, it's gone down from 79. And, you know, there's a real they're very hard thoughts that the church is going for that price after we just spend the money that we did to renovate the church. If we didn't do the renovation it wouldn't be for sale because it wouldn't be worth anything.

NK: As our listeners heard, the most recent mass and maybe the last mass, at least for now, was held on the 1st of September. Tell our listeners what was like for folks given what's going on, that mass.

CM: Well we had a good turnout for the mass that day. Most people, you know, came, you know, because they said that you know, that was the last one for now. And that the priest that was there, Father Peter Galling and he after the mass he removed [inaudible] from the church. The committee thought that probably we should, we should change the locks then and there be nobody have the key. Only a couple of the people on the committee type thing.

NK: I'm not a Catholic. But would some say that it's not the kindest thing to do.

CM: It could be. But we haven't had anybody, I haven't anybody that called me to say that most people have been in favour of us to try to, you know, to save our church.

NK: You have been able to raise so much, you said I mean, 134 dollars is a significant amount of money. The question comes to mind then, could you not just have bought the church or raise more money and buy it for the 48 thousand dollars, why not do that?

CM: Well, originally it was 79 thousand. And we felt as a community that we weren't going to buy a church that we already owned.

NK: Why do you feel that you own it?

CM: Well, you know, we've been people which put it there in the beginning and we've been paying the church in old people that the guys are like, you know, paying their collections and the dues and church money. So, we figure [inaudible] years and now after raising this money to restore it that we, that's our church and there's nobody buying our church.

NK: We mentioned you've been mayor there for nearly five decades now. And I wonder what kind of memories and moments this church, you know, hold in your heart and mind.

CM: Well, I've been, I was born in Portugal Cove South my father was born there, my grandfather was born there, my great grandfather was born in 1840. People moved there in the early 1800s. And for fishing purposes, it's a lovely, great place to fish. The best place on the southern shore. And they moved from [inaudible] and different places that they were living. And it was easier. You were on the fishing grounds and they looked after the community. They built their homes, built the church. And, you know, so we feel this is our church and there's nobody buying it.

NK: As our listeners have heard, the profits from selling this church are supposed to go towards the settlement for victims of the abuse at the Mount Cashel Orphanage. Archbishop Peter Hunt told CBC News all Catholics must, quote, accept the hurt and consequences of the sins committed against the innocent, unquote. This money is supposed to help those victims, as we mentioned. Does that give you pause, Mayor?

CM: Well, we support for the people that were abused to get paid. They should have been paid years ago. But we didn't abuse anybody. Nobody in our community. And we don't feel our church for what they're selling our church for would you know... They're still looking there was over 100 million dollars they're looking for. So far, they've raised 43 they still owe over 60 some million dollars. So, there's a long ways to go yet before those people get paid. But I'm all in favour and so are the people in our community. For those people to be taken care of and should be done years ago.

NK: It's obviously a pretty big statement, a big stand to change the locks. How long are you willing to keep this going?

CM: Well, as long as it takes. You know, this is the way we feel but since we came out and opened about this, we've had people call from different parts of Canada, people call from other communities in support of us. And you know, we even had a person call us from B.C. offering to pay for the church and give it to us.

NK: So, you might take them up on that?

CM: No, I don't think, like we don't figure that we should pay for a church that we own.

NK: That principle you mentioned.

CM: I don't know what the future... What could happen down the future down in the, you know, future if we have to do something. I don't know but right now it's our church.

NK: Mayor Molloy, I thank you for your time.

CM: And thank you for your interest.

CH: Clarence Malloy is the mayor of Portugal Cove South. He's in Saint John's, Newfoundland and Labrador.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

AUS. Wrongful Conviction

CH: When Terry Irving was sent to prison for a crime that he didn't commit, he vowed to fight every day to prove his innocence and undo the injustice. And now, 31 years later, he is still fighting. The Indigenous man was found guilty of robbing a bank in Cairns, Australia, in 1993. He spent four and a half years in an Australian prison, but his conviction was later quashed and a court found that he'd been the victim of 'malicious prosecution'. This week he's in court to determine financial compensation. In 2002, the United Nations Human Rights Committee stated that Mr. Irving was "subject to manifest injustice" and should be entitled to compensation. But the process has been slow, especially because Australia is the only democracy in the world that doesn't have laws guaranteeing compensation for the wrongfully convicted. Today, Terry Irving talked to reporters outside a Brisbane court about his case and what he's looking for.

SOUNDCLIP

TERRY IRVING: I'd like it to not take 30 odd years for restorative justice for every person in this state. To have peace, hope and love. We all deserve to be treated as an equal. Unfortunately, the state of Queensland has pitted all of this against me. I was in an eight by ten cell sharing with others. I started out writing letters which had a 5 to 6 week turnaround in communication. There are so many things that stop people from doing it, and one of the worst is apathy, because I believe that I cannot overcome the issues that they have to confront from the state of Queensland. I hope that the path is shorter, that these circumstances do not impact and crush other people and families. I've been exonerated. Been vindicated. And I've been violated. And the state of Queensland refuses to acknowledge their role in this. No amount of money can make up for the pain. The suffering. The lack of compassion. 31 years since I was incarcerated, for something I never done. It stops with me.

CH: That was Terry Irving speaking to reporters in Brisbane, Australia. The Supreme Court in Brisbane heard submissions today regarding financial compensation for his wrongful conviction and what a court described as 'malicious prosecution'.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Mpox Canadian Vaccines

Guest: Adam Houston

CH: Last month for the second time in two years, the World Health Organization declared mpox a global health emergency. African countries like Congo are at the epicenter of this outbreak. The Africa Centres for Disease Control and Prevention recorded 107 new mpox related deaths in the past week, primarily among children. To put it mildly, the need for new vaccines is acute, and Canada is reportedly considering donating up to two hundred thousand doses from its large stockpile, which puts it a step behind other G7 countries whose donations are already arriving in Africa. Adam Houston is the medical policy and advocacy adviser for Doctors Without Borders. We reached him in Victoria, British Columbia.

NK: Adam, what's your assessment of what we're hearing about what Canada could soon be sending in terms of vaccines?

ADAM HOUSTON: Well, it's certainly good to hear that Canada's considering providing these vaccines. But at the same time, it's a little bit disappointing that they haven't done so already. You know, this is a time where, you know, other places, the European Union, the United States vaccines that they provided, whether through direct procurement for donation or from their own stockpiles, have already arrived in the DRC, in Nigeria. You know, the time, the time for considering is over. The time to act is now. And, you know, unfortunately, this has been a bit of a pattern for Canada in recent years where Canada has been a bit of a follower, not a leader on vaccine equity. We saw this certainly with Covid-19, where Canada was one of the last major countries to even commit to sharing its excess doses. And, you know, we saw this as far back as H1N1, where Canada was also conspicuously absent from early initiatives to share vital and scarce resources where they're most needed.

NK: A federal official in the Globe and Mail's reporting on this story says, quote, A donation of this size would not affect the country's preparedness for impact cases in Canada, unquote. If that's not a concern, Adam, what do you think the hold-up is in terms of Canada sending vaccines?

AH: This is one question that, you know, Canada holds a lot of the answers and we wish there was a bit more transparency. You know, we do know that Bavarian Nordic, the maker of this vaccine, describes Canada as one of its top two customers. You know, we know Canada's been buying this vaccine since 2008. You know, it's got two stockpiles, one for national defence and one with the Public Health Agency of Canada. And we do know from information that is public that Canada probably has at least a couple million doses in the stockpile. This is a vaccine that is used in Canada. There are, you know, cases of mpox in Canada. But, you know, it also seems clear that Canada has more than it needs.

NK: How many doses should Canada be sending, in your view, then?

AH: Well, if we look at some countries like Spain, for example, Spain has committed to sharing 20 per cent of their stockpile and they've called on other countries to do the same. Some other countries in the EU have even beaten that number. I know Canada, it's hard to make that assessment because, of course, we don't have clarity on exactly how many doses Canada has. But you know that would seem, you know, a good target to start with.

NK: In terms of transparency. What are you seeing other countries do that you believe Canada should do as well?

AH: So, you know, just starting with, you know, how many we have is a good start. And then in turn, you know, how many does Canada need for itself. And, you know, what are its plans for the rest of them?

NK: What do you attribute that reluctance to be more transparent specifically about vaccines to?

AH: It's been an interesting experience hearing Canada respond to questions about this stockpile with, we can't reveal that on grounds of national security. When we compare that to Covid-19, where there was an endless stream of press releases and other announcements about how many doses Canada had procured, how many had actually been delivered, how many were being distributed across the country. So, it's very strange to see that juxtaposition. It's possible that, you know, early on, you know, before mpox became a global issue, you know, this was a vaccine that was originally developed for smallpox. I know it was being purchased for biosecurity. And, you know, you can understand perhaps, you know, 15 years ago saying, you know, these are bioterrorism, smallpox vaccines. You know, that's national security. But, you know, the situation has changed considerably, particularly in the last few years. Right. We had the previous global outbreak in 2022. We've got the situation now. You know, some of those arguments don't seem as clear. So, it would be great to get some clarity from Canada on the numbers. And if they can't, then on why.

NK: You talked about that global responsibility. And we certainly heard that a lot throughout the pandemic as well. If Canada does not do more to help, you know, African countries deal with the outbreaks they're dealing with, what are the long term repercussions of that?

AH: Well, there are a couple of pieces to that. I mean, one is that, you know, especially in Covid-19, you know, Canada's reluctance to share doses despite pronouncing quite proudly that it had secured the most doses per capita of any country in the world, you know, that did affect negatively Canada's reputation. You know, as a positive force in global health. And here we seem to be repeating that that same mistake. But, you know, it's not just about particular outbreaks. It's about, you know, actually addressing, you know, underlying issues that fuel pandemics and, you know, and preventing those. And, you know, right now there are opportunities this week, they have reopened negotiations of the pandemic agreement at the World Health Organization. And, of course, one of the issues that spurred the creation of this instrument was this issue of equitable access to important medical tools like vaccines. And unfortunately, what we've seen in practice throughout the negotiations is that, you know, Canada likes to talk about equity, but Canada in the negotiations has actively been opposing some of the measures that would actually, you know, help to make equitable access to medicines a reality.

NK: Adam, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

AH: Thank you very much.

CH: Adam Houston is the medical policy and advocacy adviser for Doctors Without Borders. He's in Victoria, British Columbia. As It Happens, reached out to Global Affairs Canada for comment regarding the number of doses being donated to Africa. We did not hear back before airtime.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Salish Sea Noise

Guest: Jennifer Tennessen

CH: Some killer whales off the coast of B.C. and Vancouver Island are going hungry and our boats are partly to blame. That's according to new research that specifically looks at how underwater noise is impacting northern and southern resident orcas. The noise from cargo and cruise ships, as well as ferries and private boats. Jennifer Tennessen is a senior research scientist at the University of Washington and the Centre for Ecosystem Sentinels. She's the lead researcher on the study. We reached her in Bellingham, Washington.

NK: Jennifer, we know that noise pollution was already having a negative impact on whales that's been out there. And you've participated in some of those previous studies as well. What stood out to you as you looked at the results of this study?

JENNIFER TENNESSEN: So, this study was really novel in that for the first time we were able to show how noise is directly impacting multiple components of hunting by orcas in the Salish Sea, which is the waters around Vancouver Island and the inland waters of British Columbia and Washington State.

NK: You were looking at specific whales. Can you tell us a little bit about the methodology and how that was different?

JT: Sure. So, we used this really revolutionary tag that has really transformed what researchers have been able to do and to learn and to understand about marine mammal behaviour. It's called a d- tag. We were able to stick these tags onto the backsides of whales just below their dorsal fin. And then on the tag there are microphones which are these underwater microphones that record sound. And then the tag also has sensors that record three dimensional movement. So, the animal's pitch and how it rolls side to side in the water and it's heading, how often it's turning. And then it also records the animal's acceleration in three different dimensions. And so, piecing all of that information together, we were able to do something that had really been elusive in the past that really kind of pushed forward. The tag enabled us to understand the sounds that the animal's actually receiving and hearing rather than relying on nearby underwater microphones that might be mounted at a fixed location where in those situations in the past, we've needed to infer the sounds that the animals are hearing. We've relied on surface observations in order to understand whether or not behaviours such as hunting, we also call that foraging are being impacted. But when you rely on surface observations, you're only seeing about 10 per cent of what the animals are doing.

NK: That's where they're doing 90 per cent of their foraging, underwater.

JT: Exactly. 90 per cent of everything they do happens underwater, out of sight of human observers.

NK: And you also found in your research you spotted some differences between females and males.

JT: That's right. So, we found that both males and females, as noise increased, there was a direct relationship between growing noise level and the likelihood of searching for prey, looking for prey. But then we found that there were differences between males and females in whether or not, if they spotted prey, were they likely to continue to chase that prey to initiate a pursuit. And that pursuit, of course, is critical because it is the first step towards potentially getting that dinner. And so, we found that females were less likely to initiate those pursuits as noise increased, but males continued to pursue, there was no impact of noise on whether or not they would pursue. But ultimately, both males and females were less likely to catch prey in the end, as noise increased.

NK: As the noise, it acts as a deterrent. As you've been saying, do you have a sense of whether it's because it's a nuisance to them or they're afraid of it?

JT: I think it's neither. I think it's actually, what's happening is the noise is interfering, it's masking their ability to hear important sounds related to hunting. And so, in these orcas they rely on sending out echolocation, which is like sonar, they send out these sounds, these clicks and those sounds scan through the environment and they bounce off of objects in the environment. And those echoes returned to the whale. And those echoes are full of important information, like the identity of the species of the fish, how close it is, how big it is, where it is. And so, if they can't hear that information, they aren't able to ultimately catch fish and take in that important energy that they need to survive.

NK: Canada's government, you may know, is taking public feedback for its ocean noise strategy. People can give feedback until October 22nd of this year. What are you hoping might come from that process?

JT: You know, I think in any situation where the public is allowed to comment, I think there's so much collective wisdom. And I think that can help management arrive at solutions that are wise and also are likely to be embraced by the public. Because, of course, if solutions come out that may not be effective, then you know and may be difficult to follow, then they ultimately won't achieve what they were developed to achieve.

NK: Jennifer, thank you for your time.

JT: Absolutely. Thanks so much.

CH: Jennifer Tennessen is the lead researcher on a new study that links noise pollution with killer whales, struggles to hunt for food. We reached her in Bellingham, Washington.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

FOA: World's Heaviest Plum

CH: On As It Happens, we leave no stone fruit unturned. So, let us now introduce you to South African farmers Dean and Deon Barnard, who are making international headlines for their plums. One plum in particular, which weighs 16.3oz, about 460 grams. That is more than the weight of a soccer ball and crushes the previous record for the world's heaviest plum. The Barnard's told Guinness World Records they didn't intend to break a world record and grow a plum the size of a softball. But now that they have, they want to break the record again. They've set their sights on growing a 500 gram plum. Of course, we'll keep you posted. Ian Neale had a similar drive, always trying to grow bigger and better, a mindset that earned his vegetables, fame and a famous admirer. In 2011, Mr. Neale grew a record breaking rutabaga, weighing about 40kg, which got the attention of a rapper whose voice you'll recognize.

SOUNDCLIP

SNOOP DOG: What up y'all, shout out to my homeboy Ian Neale in Cardiff for breaking the world's record for the biggest vegetable. Man, I want to tell you something. And when I do my show in Cardiff, I want you to come backstage to see me because I do vegetation myself. And I want to know your secret so I can show you my vegetables and see if you can grow that into a real big vegetable. So, Ian Neale from Cardiff comes to ya boy, Snoop Dogg I got two tickets for you when I get to town. Yeah dig.

CH: That, of course, was Snoop Dogg inviting Ian Neale to his concert in 2011. As It Happens, also reached out to Mr. Neale. And here he is speaking to former As It Happens host Carol Off from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

CAROL OFF: I understand you've been invited to go to Snoop Dogg's concert on Saturday night.

IAN NEALE: Yes, I have.

CO: Are you going to go?

IN: I'm going to go along. Yes. See what the world is like on their side of the world.

CO: Are you a fan of Snoop's music?

IN: Never heard of it.

CO: You never heard of Snoop Dogg's music?

IN: I think I can recall about a couple of years ago that he was refused to come into this country because of his drug taking. But that's all I know.

CO: Do you have any idea how Snoop Dogg heard about you and your vegetables?

IN: Yeah, I think there's a big video gone out. I had a film company here fortnight ago and they made a six minute film and has gone around the world. And I think that's where he got it from. I don't think he's interested in my vegetables. I've seen his video and he's sitting in front of cannabis plants, so whether he wants a bit of weeding done, I don't know.

CO: But no, but he also says in that video that he, his video he understands from looking at your video that you know how to grow some pretty impressive plants. So, he's looking to get some advice from you.

IN: Yes, to grow this plant better. And I don't know nothing about his plants. Never, Never grown it. Never used it.

CH: Well, if you're wondering if that changed, we did call Mr. Neale back a few days later.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Hello, Ian.

IN: Hello, Carol.

CO: Yes. How was the concert?

IN: It was something different. It's an experience to go there. A bit loud, got a bit deaf for a couple of days.

CO: Oh dear.

IN: Well, I should have worn earplugs, but of course it's full blast there.

CO: Okay. Well, the other part of the invitation from Snoop Dogg was for you to go backstage. Did you do that?

IN: I met some thug, and I smoked a peace pipe with him. I'm not going to take it up, mind.

CO: You smoked the peace pipe with him? You mean you shared some of his weed?

IN: I had a part of his weed, yes. Yeah. It left a bit of a taste in your mouth. I can't describe it. It lasted a couple hours, then it went.

CO: Did it have an effect on your head as well?

IN: The music did, not his smoke. It was deafening.

CO: What did you tell him about how to grow his cannabis?

IN: Ah we, eh you're not supposed to mention that word. We've got a chemical on trial this year called Group Grow. We give him a packet and he's going to try it.

CO: What do you think the root grow can do then?

IN: It makes better roots. So, if you can get better roots you get a better head.

CH: From our archives, Ian Neale talking to Carol after attending a Snoop Dogg concert and giving the rapper gardening advice in 2011.

[Music: Theme]

CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

[Music: Theme]

The AIH Transcript For September 12, 2024

Social Sharing