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The AIH Transcript for October 29, 2024

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Banned-aid solution. Despite an international outcry, Israel's parliament votes to ban the main UN agency providing aid to Palestinian civilians in Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and elsewhere.

CH: Outside chance. A spokesperson for the main opposition party in Georgia, tells us there's a push for new elections after allegations of voter fraud. But he says that won't happen without international pressure.

NK: Down for the count. U.S. election workers are bracing for hostility and hate amidst a host of conspiracy theories. A town clerk in Wisconsin tells us she's focussed not just on ensuring that ballots are safe, but that workers are safe, too.

CH: How now kowtow. Washington Post owner Jeff Bezos pens an op-ed arguing that killing the paper's presidential endorsement was just the right thing to do and the best way to establish objectivity.

NK: On the wrong track. A sheriff's deputy in California jumps out of his car and rushes a child to safety moments before a train slams into her family's SUV.

CH: And underbrush with greatness. Nature writer Robert Macfarlane was part of a team that composed a song in an Ecuadorian Cloud forest. And now they want the forest itself to be officially recognized as a co-creator. As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio knows when you write a song with a forest, it can get kind of sappy.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Israel UNRWA Ban, Election Worker Prep, Ecuador Forest Song

Israel UNRWA Ban

Guest: Juliette Touma

CH: Governments are lining up to condemn new Israeli legislation that would ban UNRWA, the primary UN agency delivering relief to Palestinian refugees inside Gaza and beyond. Last night, the Israeli parliament voted the ban into law. It will take effect in 90 days. But already Norway is calling on the International Court of Justice to consider whether the ban violates international law. And in Washington, the U.S. State Department warned that Israel could face legal and policy consequences. Meanwhile, in northern Gaza, the health ministry is reporting that an Israeli strike on a residential building has killed 93 people, including at least 20 children. Juliette Touma is the communication director for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees in the Near East, better known as UNRWA. We reached her in Beirut.

NK: Juliette, we're hearing and seeing some strong or stronger language then we've seen and heard in the past from the United States and other countries trying to warn Israel about the potential consequences of banning your organization. Do you think those words are going to have any effect at this point?

JULIETTE TOUMA: Look, there is no question that the statements that we've been getting over the past 24 hours are absolutely fundamental and very, very important. Now, what needs to happen is for these words to turn into action and for more pressure to be exerted on the government of Israel to not implement this bill that was approved last night in Israeli parliament. Because if it does get implemented, there's going to be severe implications on the people we serve, including those in Gaza who have been trapped and those in the West Bank.

NK: How are your colleagues responding to this news?

JT: I mean, we have a group of the most committed humanitarian professionals at the moment at UNRWA, because this morning everybody went back to work. Everybody opened the shelters. If it is in Gaza and provided whatever we could in terms of humanitarian assistance, our schools in the West Bank and across the region, in Syria, in Jordan, in the West Bank, schools were open this morning. In Lebanon, where I am right now, the shelters that have been housing displaced people who fled the recent escalation by the Israeli forces. The shelters were open and services were provided. So, we are there and we continue to provide relief services and humanitarian assistance to people who need us most.

NK: What will happen to Palestinians in Gaza if this ban were to be implemented?

JT: People in Gaza have been going through immense, unspeakable suffering, in fact, despite the fact that UNRWA has been there, despite the fact that they see and they tell us, UNRWA is our lifeline, UNRWA is the reason why we survived because UNRWA provides us food, because UNRWA provides us a place to sleep in, UNRWA provides us with the health care that we need. It's further collective punishment to a group of people that have nothing to do with this brutal, brutal conflict that we're witnessing right now. And this is where the world needs to do much more. It's not about UNRWA. It's about putting all the efforts towards reaching a deal that will secure a cease fire, that will bring respite to people in Gaza and Lebanon, across Israel. And, and, and, and there should be an immediate release of the hostages.

NK: You're certainly aware that UNRWA has faced allegations before. Our listeners will recall the stories, you know, in the last year or so, earlier this year. Your teams are doing this very difficult work as this conflict continues. But has there also been discussion, I mean, do your teams also talk about is there anything we could or should do to try to make sure people cannot level these kinds of allegations or that legislation like this could make its way through the Israeli parliament? Is that something you could have done?

JT: We took those allegations very seriously. We launched international investigations. The investigations came out and said that these allegations could never be substantiated with any evidence. We're talking here about 12, 19 staff members who were under these allegations out of a team of 30 thousand people who worked for UNRWA across the region. Right. But we did do what is needed to be done. I'm not entirely sure that all of this is about the allegations, all of these acts that the state of Israel are engaging in against agency are about stripping the Palestinian people of the refugee status.

NK: And just finally, Juliette, as you may have seen or heard, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said, quote, "In the 90 days before this legislation takes effect and after we stand ready to work with our international partners to ensure Israel continues to facilitate humanitarian aid to civilians in Gaza in a way that does not threaten Israel's security", unquote. What, if anything, do those words mean to you at this point?

JT: There is no alternative to UNRWA. There have been several attempts over the past months to put in place initiatives and efforts to deliver humanitarian aid. They have failed and they have failed miserably. At points these attempts and these initiatives have cost people their lives was while trying to go and get humanitarian aid. UNRWA has the infrastructure to deliver humanitarian supplies and assistance and medical care in Gaza. There is absolutely no alternative to UNRWA. No other United Nations agency has the infrastructure that we have. No other United Nations agency or aid organization has the trust of the communities that we deliver for. There are few questions there at the operational level that the government of Israel, including the Prime Minister, need to answer to. It's not easy as it's being made sound, right. It's not as easy.

NK: Juliette, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

JT: Thanks a million.

CH: Juliette Touma is UNRWA's communications director. We reached her in Beirut.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Election Worker Prep

Guest: Melissa Kono

CH: This is a very busy time for Melissa Kono. Ms. Kono is the town clerk in Burnside, Wisconsin. She's also a professor in community resource development at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. And because of her expertise, she's been called upon to train election workers across the state. And it's a lot of work. In recent weeks, she has trained hundreds of people. And like in previous years, those trainees have shown up with a lot of questions. But this year, amid a swirl of conspiracy theories over election results and increased threats against election workers, Ms. Kono is fielding questions she hasn't heard before. We reached Melissa Kono just after she finished up a training session in Neillsville, Wisconsin.

NK: Melissa, I don't have to tell you, it is exactly one week until the election. Is busy the right word to describe your days?

MELISSA KONO: Oh, I think that's being very generous. It's more stress than busy, I think.

NK: And these new kinds of questions you're getting, are they part of that stress? What kinds of things are people asking you the most now?

MK: Yeah, I would say that in comparison to other years, I've done election training. The question I get a lot is about handling observers in the polling place. Other places might I call them poll watchers. And I think election workers are a little bit nervous about that aspect and not knowing what the rules are and how exactly observers should behave and what they should be doing about it. Also, questions about how to handle irate voters or disgruntled voters, or even just critical comments from voters that are directed at election officials.

NK: And what do you say to them, Melissa?

MK: Yeah, I have included a couple of different things. One is some de-escalation techniques, conflict management, but also, you know, going over what does constitute a threat to an election official and what to do about it. Whether it's an immediate threat, gather information and then how to report threats to election workers.

NK: That's a lot for you and that's a lot for these folks to weigh. I mean, anyone who's worked at a polling station, maybe not in the States, but across Canada, it's an important job. But it's a pretty steady and slow, bureaucratic kind of day, an important one, as I say. So, were you bracing for these kinds of questions and anxieties this time around?

MK: Yeah, I was. You know, it has been escalating over the past couple election cycles to the point where, you know, I did not cover this type of material when I started training election workers 10 years ago. And it was more procedural back then, you know, how do I know what someone should be using as a photo ID and how do I know they're registering the correct place? And it has now morphed into how do I handle it when there's an agitated observer in the polling place? And how do I make sure that I'm following the rules so that people don't get agitated with me? And like you said, it is more like a civic duty type jobs. And it really is somebody it's a full time job. We don't have elections very often, so it is hard to be really up and up on all the rules, but also to expect that election workers would be in a place where they would have to police such behaviour, I think is really asking a lot of somebody who's just trying to do a civic duty.

NK: Your county, we should let our listeners know, typically votes Republican. It certainly went that way in 2020. So, it wasn't a target in the way other places were for those denying the results of that election. Wisconsin is a swing state, though. So, I wonder if that's weighing on people, the power that the state holds, particularly in an election that is so close at this point?

MK: Yeah, it's definitely like living in a fishbowl. When we are a swing state, you know, the stakes are very high. We get bombarded with ads and candidate visits. And I do think that that does lend itself to people's uneasiness about how things are going to unfold. It puts people on edge, especially election workers who are under the microscope when we're in a swing state.

NK: We're also, of course, seeing as you and the workers there are, I'm sure, the reports, the incidents of threats, harassment in some cases, to put it mildly, to election workers and stations across the country. So, have you had to deal with those kinds of things where you are?

MK: So, I haven't had any threats directed towards me that I would warrant, as you know, needing to take, you know, shelter for my safety or anything like that. I have fielded some comments that would border on threatening to election officials, especially, you know, suggesting that our election system isn't, doesn't have any integrity or, you know, comments like that. There are areas that I've trained in that have had to call law enforcement when it comes to people in the polling place. So, you know, it does, it does vary on where I am training election workers and what their concerns are. You know, there were events here in the U.S. last week where election officials were, you know, physically assaulted for asking a voter to remove an item of apparel. Now that we've had those instances in the news, I think that we are concerned with what it's going to look like in our polling place on Election Day.

NK: Is there going to be security or police presence of any kind? Is there normally?

MK: So, there's not normally police presence. However, there will be this year.

NK: I know you're also fielding questions from those who you're training who are themselves, in some cases expressing skepticism or suspicions about parts of the election process. Given, you know, the kind of misinformation and disinformation that is out there, how do you deal with those kinds of questions?

MK: Yeah, I certainly have heard that from people who have agreed to be election workers. But I have noticed that once they attend training, a lot of times they say to me, I understand the process now and I'm less concerned. Or if they were concerned about our voting equipment, they'll say, now that I understand the machine, you know, I think it's secure. And so, education is really powerful. I just wish that people would on the side of learning more before they made statements that do cause harm at times.

NK: When you hear them say that, that it's less opaque to them now and they feel better about it, does that, is that a relief for you? Do you exhale a little bit, given everything else that's going on?

MK: I do. And then I think tell your friends. As election officials, it is our job to uphold integrity and, you know, help our friends and neighbours access their right to vote and to be good stewards of election integrity.

NK: I'm really glad we could speak, Melissa. I appreciate your time. Please take care.

MK: Yeah, Thank you.

CH: Melissa Kono is the town clerk in Burnside, Wisconsin. She's been training election workers there. We reached her in Neillsville.

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

Ecuador Forest Song

Guest: Robert Macfarlane

SOUNDCLIP

Music: Song of the Cedars.

CH: Two years ago, a group of collaborators convened in Ecuador and dreamed up this song. The team consisted of a writer, a musician, a legal scholar, a mycologist and a forest. The result is called Song of the Cedars. The Cedars in question live in a place called Los Cedros. And the song, though Cedars collaborated on, this one, was released today, and it's being performed this evening at the UN's Biodiversity Conference in Colombia. And now the song's other four authors are petitioning to have Los Cedros formally recognized as a co-creator in its own right. Robert Macfarlane is the writer of the group and contributed some of the lyrics. We reached him in Cambridge, UK.

NK: Robert, I hear calm. When I, I feel calm when I listen to that. It's evocative and beautiful. What does it conjure for you?

ROBERT MACFARLANE: Well, it summons me right back. Two years to the day, almost to a little clearing high in a cloud forest in northwest Ecuador at about two and a half thousand metres. Four people sitting around a campfire that has yet to be lit. And suddenly I pulled a little notebook out from my pocket and began to jot lyrics. "Trees speak in your leaves please, and streams tell me your dreams", the lyrics you just heard. And out of that seed a song grew.

NK: Being integral to the creation of this song. When you listen back to it now, what does it, what feeling does it give you?

RM: Well, astonishing life. That was my overwhelming tumultuous memory impression at the time of this forest. The Los Cedros Cloud Forest is one of the most biodiverse places on earth. Just an astonishing density and busyness of floral and faunal and fungal life. So, it is at once deeply calming, but it's also exceptionally kind of busy.

NK: Yeah, active. And you certainly hear the different sounds of that activity. How do you see the forest bringing this song to life?

RM: So, the forest is present in two ways, I guess. It's there as a vocalist and as a performer you can hear the voices of, and the sounds of hummingbirds, of howler monkeys, of toucan bobbitt, of cicadas, frogs, rivers, leaves. But the forest is also that as a co-author and that's obviously central to the way we've released it.

NK: If you get your way, as our listeners heard, you're petitioning Ecuador's copyright office to recognize Los Cedros as an author of this piece of music. What would that do for the forest?

RM: Well, it was such a precedent in law in one jurisdiction, which has obviously the potential to ripple out into other jurisdictions. It seems to us, it seems to me philosophically, in a way, a very simple thing that we're asking. We're asking to recognize the fact that we work, create, write, think with nature, but that that co-creation has gone elided unrecognized in, in law. You think of whale song CD's, let's say, and the artists there, the whales, but the whales themselves are never actually recognized as, as the authors, as the creators. So yeah, we're asking for a recognition of moral authorship.

NK: Co-authors of songs certainly get royalties and get money. It doesn't sound like you want that. You want this symbolic recognition. But wouldn't that money help this forest?

RM: Well, it was really important to us that we didn't, as it were, extend the pecuniary right of financial benefit for the forest because that that opens up to us a really problematic kind of channel. And one of the differences is that economic rights can be bought and sold, so anyone could, as it were, buy the forest's pecuniary right but authorship, moral-ship is inalienable. It belongs to the creator. And it's a philosophical principle that we want to establish, but one the things we discovered is that it's impossible to release a song on the conventional platforms without it generating some form of income. Originally, we didn't want to generate any, but if any is generated, all of it is going to be directed back to a humanly administered fund, the Los Cedros fund, which has just been established in which this will represent first income to.

NK: Our listeners should know, Los Cedros has already been granted personhood. You're not a legal expert, obviously, but do you think this will help bolster your case?

RM: Yeah. Yeah. So, we, César Rodríguez-Garavitothe the human, Colombian human rights lawyer and rights nature lawyer is one of the petitioners, one of the co-creators of the song. And we're all part of a collective called the Moth, More Than Human Life and Rights Project. We've been very involved in the protection of Los Cedros and in the implementation of this remarkable ruling in 2021. The expedition that we run when we created the song was actually to seek for, collect and name two new species of fungi, which recognition of which also contributes to the protection of the forest. So, it's all part of affirming and kind of further entrenching the recognition of the forest as a legal person, but also as an extraordinary kind of more than human being, I suppose.

NK: I understand the song is going to be performed live at a COP16 event tonight. What are you hoping the people who are in the audience taking this song in take away from it?

RM: Well I mean the COP is obviously focussed on biodiversity. I mean, the figures which you will have heard came out last week in the State of the Planet Report. Just kind of beyond shocking. I was gut punched by them, really 70 per cent loss of biodiversity up to 90 per cent in parts of Latin America. So, Los Cedros is really an island now it's, it is one, it remains one of the most biodiverse places in the world, in the tropical Andes, the near tropics, which are the most biodiverse land, land areas, regions, types in the world. So, but they are threatened, you know, absolutely lapped around by a kind of sterility. So a song that celebrates the extraordinary life force of that forest, both creative and in terms of its species richness and the soundscape of it, it seems to us, you know, really, really important and symbolic as the world gathers at COP to recognize that the diversity of life and its flourishing is vital for us and so many species beyond us.

NK: Robert, great to have you back on our show. Thank you for this.

RM: For having me, Nil. Yeah, it's been a pleasure to talk. Thanks.

NK: Likewise. Take care.

RM: Take care. Bye bye.

CH: We reached writer Robert Macfarlane in Cambridge, UK.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Part 2: Georgia Opposition, P.E.I. Sextortion Parents, Cali. Train Rescue, Québécois ChatGPT

Georgia Opposition

Guest: Alexandre Crevaux-Asatiani

CH: They went to the polls in force and after that they took to the streets in force. Election officials in Georgia say the ruling party, Georgian Dream, won the weekend election. But yesterday, tens of thousands of Georgians protested in Tbilisi, saying the parliamentary election was rigged. Now opposition parties are preparing to take their fight further and they're urging the international community to get involved. Alexandre Crevaux-Asatiani is with the United National Movement, which is leading the coalition of opposition parties calling for new elections. He's in Tbilisi.

NK: Alexandre, as you looked at the crowds outside the parliament building last night, what did it mean to you? What message did it send?

ALEXANDRE CREVAUX-ASATIANI: It sent a message of hope. Of hope, because what we saw was a really large crowd. We're talking about up to a hundred thousand people, which is big for a small country like Georgia that came without any organization with just one call to action by the president to come in front of the parliament at 7 p.m. Let's remember one thing that last week the government of Georgia declared the parliament of Georgia a no picketing place, which means that all protests in front of Parliament have now been rendered illegal. That's a hundred thousand people, though, are ready to defy that kind of law to show their dedication to democracy. And it shows that we won't back down.

NK: Several countries, as you know, have expressed concerns about the election and the concerns raised by election observers. They responded to that. But beyond Sweden, which has said it is pausing, quote, all bilateral development cooperation, unquote, with Georgian authorities, the response, it could be described as tepid or maybe even inconsequential around the world. Do you think the message is getting through to the international community?

ACA: I think the international community right now is giving Georgian Dream one chance, one last chance to do the right thing and to cancel whatever results the Central Election Commission published. But I think it's clear that the international community right now does not recognize the legitimacy of this election. The only countries that have made actual statements recognizing those results are Turkey, China, Hungary, Venezuela, Armenia and Azerbaijan, as well as Russia, of course. So, this shows that Georgian Dream is already isolated now. Yes, we want more. We want to see that the international community, Brussels, Washington and the entire G7 need to make a strong stance that they are standing with Georgian democracy because it's Georgia, the Georgia was at one point the darling of democracy for the West in a very difficult region. We can't just let it disappear right now. So, we want to see strong sanctions, not against the Georgian people, not on the Georgian economy, but on [inaudible] the Russian French oligarch that is in charge of the democratic downfall of Georgia. It's media allies, political allies, all of those that have contributed to this Democratic collapse. We want to see that. We've been calling for sanctions for a long time. People weren't listening to us.

NK: The election commission has moved a bit on this, saying that it is going to recount ballots at five randomly selected polling stations in each of the 84 electoral districts in Georgia. This is according to Reuters reporting. Is that a significant move that the Central Election Commission is doing this, electoral commission?

ACA: Not at all, because we're not out here asking for a recount. The reason why we're asking for completely new elections to be is because whatever happened was not an election in itself. And that won't change whether you recount certain precincts that you choose, that the government chooses or not. We're talking about voter intimidation, violence at precincts, terrible violence at precincts. Just we had five of our observers arrested and two that were hospitalized. We're talking about people, criminals hovering around precincts and intimidating people. It's about stuffing. Whatever recount happens will not change the terrible assault on democracy that we saw on Saturday.

NK: The Georgian Dream, as you know, continues to deny that this vote was rigged in any way and say it represents the will of Georgia's people, that there were only a small number of complaints. Obviously, that contradicts what the election observer we spoke to yesterday has said. And what you are saying now. But given where we're at, given, you know, when you look at other countries, we've certainly covered what happened in Venezuela. There was outcry, there were protests, but nothing changed. So how optimistic are you that you're going to get a new election?

ACA: Yeah. First of all, let me quickly address what the Central Election Commission said, which is absolutely ridiculous. Just our party and that's just our party, which is granted the largest opposition party but is only one of the four opposition parties that we're running for election. We filed close to 300 election complaints the day of election and 200 before the election. So just saying it was a couple that were responded is completely false. There was a 98 per cent refusal to response rate, 98 per cent. So, it's not like every has been addressed, far from the contrary. And at the end of the day, we're dealing with just looking at the exit polls for Georgian history, all exit polls have always been within one or two points of the final results. Now, there was a 12 point gap between whatever exit polls were saying and the final results. It's basically impossible for that kind of discrepancy to happen. So, yeah, obviously we know that there was fraud and yes, we understand what happened in Venezuela. Obviously, we wished that the international community took a stronger sense in Venezuela because it would have also been a message for Georgian Dream that democracy will be safeguarded. However, there is a big difference. Georgia is a country that is increasingly pro-European and young. Venezuela was already an authoritarian regime, and now Georgia is going to go overnight from a free, a country with a free society to an overnight totalitarian state. People will not let that happen. And Georgia has had countless experiences where it has had to deal with its own democratic protections without the international community's involvement. And that's what it did last year in 2023, during the spring 2023 protest, that's what it did in 2003 when similarly held elections that were rigged led to the rules revolution without the international community's assistance. We know what needs to be done. And at the end of the day, Georgia is a small country. Everyone knows each other. Everyone's related to each other. We're not going to see what we saw in Venezuela where you had the troops firing at people, because here every you know, special commandos are cousins of people in the front lines of the protests. I myself, when I was protesting, I saw a childhood friend and he was on the front line of the police. And, you know, and we shook hands. We know that at the end of the day, we're not, they, no one will take arms, will take up arms against each other in Georgia. That's what we're a lot more confident that we will be able to safeguard our democracy. And once we show the world that, that's when we know that the world will react, because that's how the world works. First they need to see that we, the Georgian people, are ready to defend our democracy.

NK: Alexandre I'm glad we could speak. Thank you for this.

ACA: Thank you.

CH: Alexandre Crevaux-Asatiani is with the United National Movement, one of the opposition parties calling for new elections in Georgia. He's in Tbilisi.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

P.E.I. Sextortion Parents

CH: Last year, Harry Burke got a message on Snapchat that shattered the lives of his family. And now they're sending a message to that social media site and others. The 17 year old from P.E.I. died by suicide in April 2023 after learning he was the victim of sextortion. Earlier this year, his parents, Carl Burke and Barbie Lavers, spoke to Nil. They told her they were sharing Harry's story in the hopes it would help keep other kids safe. And now they're turning their focus to the courts. The family has joined a class action lawsuit against several social media sites claiming they've chosen profit over child safety. But as Carl Burke told the CBC, he knows taking on those companies will be an uphill battle.

SOUNDCLIP

CARL BURKE: It kind of feels like a David and Goliath scenario is what it feels like. I'm sure they're not very concerned about Carl Burke or Barb Lavers sitting in Prince Edward Island and being upset about the loss of their son. So, we are definitely the underdogs in this situation. I really feel, though, that the tides are changing. There's more government involvement with Bill C-63, and I know the states are trying to have a bill passed forward as well on the safety of children online. So, I think things are starting to change. I just, I just hope and pray that it does go in the right direction. The most changes that will ever be made will be made through something like this. They feel they're untouchable and government's putting in policies, procedures, laws and whatnot. Those are wonderful too. But it seems like they find loopholes. They have ways to sidestep around these things. But I think if people wake up and see there's a commonality in the way this happens with the sextortion and it's the same no matter what country you're in, it happens the same way. And I'd have to feel that if we see it, then there's no reason why the people in Meta aren't seeing the same thing. Why can't they say, Well, if this is happening repeatedly over and over again, then maybe it's time to make a change to protect children.

ALEX MACISAAC: What would a change be for you? What would a win be for you and your family in this case?

CARL BURKE: Well, I would really, really like to see changes. I would like to see accountability on the part of the social media platforms. I compare it now to the Wild West. It seems like they're allowed to do and get away with whatever they want. So, if there's more accountability, comes out of a lawsuit like this and they're actually forced to make changes where kids’ lives matter. That's what I'd really like to see. The thoughts and memories are there every day anyway, but I've been doing a lot of reading and the more reading I do, it gets me in touch with what's actually going on out there. But to be perfectly honest, it makes me physically ill because of the stress that it's creating, and I can see the stress in my wife and I can see the stress in our daughter. And it's hard. It's, I mean, this is something we really want to do. We want to see changes made. We don't want to see another family have to suffer the way we're suffering. But it is taking a toll on us as well. But it has to be done.

CH: That was Carl Burke speaking to the CBC's Alex MacIsaac. Mr. Burke and his family have joined a class action lawsuit against several social media companies because his 17 year old son Harry, died by suicide after becoming the victim of online sextortion. If you or someone you know is struggling, you can get help right now by calling or texting Canada's suicide crisis helpline at 988.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

Cali. Train Rescue

Guest: Michael Castaneda

CH: You stare at the screen willing the white SUV to move. But it doesn't. It seems like it can't and barrelling inexorably toward it is a train that's blaring its horn as it comes closer and closer. And then in that video, Michael Castaneda comes running in. The off duty San Bernardino County sheriff's deputy is being called a hero for rescuing a child on that day in September. We reached him in Yucaipa, California.

NK: Deputy in the moments before someone else started recording all of this, capturing this on video. You're driving along. When did you first notice that white SUV?

MICHAEL CASTANEDA: So, as I was at the at the train gates waiting for my turn to go across to get to continue home, I had noticed that the vehicle in front of me was still in an area that I felt was unsafe at the time. And that's when the arm started to come back down and the driver tried to manoeuvre around the vehicle in front of her to get out of the way of the oncoming train when she became stuck in the gravel on the side. After she got out of the car and the urgency she got out of the car, I knew then that there was, there was something wrong. As soon as she opened, the back door dawned on me that there was probably a passenger or small child, somebody back there, just her, of her urgency. Once I stepped out of my car, she came out of the backseat with a small child of roughly probably 3 or 4 years old little girl and sat her down on the tracks. [NK: On the tracks?] Right when she... Yeah, right outside the vehicle. She set the child down. And right at that point, the train was starting to blow its horn. That's when I realized how close that train was to the vehicle. It was like a start of a race to me. I needed to get her off the tracks. I didn't think twice. I felt if, you know, my family was in that situation, what would I want somebody to do? I would want somebody to help them. So, I just started running as fast as I could to get that little girl, picked her up and continued to run off the tracks. I didn't realize until after Mom was able to get another child out of the vehicle just roughly about the same age and was actually able to run the opposite direction without being struck by the train.

NK: She must have been so panicked and you must have been in those moments acting quickly as you did. When you got to the other side, are you exhaling what's happening in that moment? You're holding this child.

MC: I was just trying to console her. She was scared as any little girl would be at such a young age of being in the arms of a stranger. A complete stranger, was just trying to tell her, you know I'm going to get you back with your mom. I just had to get you off the tracks. There was a, there was an emergency. I'm not sure how much she was understanding.

NK: How quickly did all of this unfold? I mean, from the point that you pull up and see this white SUV to you're standing on the other side of the tracks with one child. The mother's safe on the other side with her other child.

MC: Probably about maybe less than a minute. It felt a lot longer. Time slowed down, but it was probably less than a minute from the start of it to the end of it. I didn't kind of grasp all of it, until actually seeing the video. I would say luckily somebody filmed it to see just the, the severity of what could have happened. For any future incident that may take place when people were trying to manoeuvre around train tracks.

NK: Yeah, I saw the video. It does happen very quickly. There is impact, it seems, at least in the videos I saw, but they could have been slowed down. I don't know that the train was able to slow down a little bit. The impact is still serious, but it's not speeding in, in the way that people might expect. Was it able to slow down a little bit?

MC: I think it was, I don't know if, I think it was, there was two things. I think it was able to slow down just a little bit. But there was a train that had just passed going in the opposite direction when the arm started to go up and the car started to proceed across the tracks, when the arm started to come back down for that train that eventually hit the car. So, I think there was a, I think by a train passing it, it might have slowed down for that. And then maybe it, seeing the vehicle from its view, was able to slow down just a little longer.

NK: Well, that's, a you know, a bit of grace too.

MC: It was probably a better thing that the train was able to slow down just a little bit. So, mom was able to get out in just the nick of time to get her other child to safety without being potentially run over by the vehicle as the train hit it.

NK: The other 'what could have beens' are pretty horrific if you let your mind go there. So, after that point of impact, you know, how long until you're able to cross over with the little girl in your arms and reunite her with... And I'm making the assumption that this woman is the mother of both of these children. Let me know if that's not correct. But so, how long before you were able to reunite this family?

MC: It was probably maybe just another minute or so. I just need to make sure that the train was not moving anymore. The car wasn't going to move anymore. So, I can get around over the tracks in a safe manner and around another set of tracks before getting to the mom and, right. Actually, right when I got to mom, there was a third train that was starting to come the opposite direction.

NK: This is an active, active set of tracks.

MC: Yeah. And we were able to get that train or the conductors from the train that ended up crashing into the vehicle was able to radio them to slow down and stop before getting to us. So, yeah, there was a, it was a tense moment for just a little bit, but with my line of work, it's kind of what, you know, what's expected of me to be able to have composure during a time like that, which with, I believe my training very helped me a lot during that incident.

NK: What did she say to you?

MC: She was very thankful for, thanking me, for helping her. I think with everything that was going on, it was probably a lot for her to process at the moment, her vehicle, her kids, what was going on, how that situation became. But she was very, very thankful.

NK: I bet. You've heard some people are calling you a hero. This month you also receive the Meritorious Valour Award. How does all of that sit with you, Deputy?

MC: I appreciate the support from my peers and other people. I was just doing what I thought was right. What I've been trained to do. I didn't know it was being filmed. I didn't realize that until hours later, until it popped up on social media that, what had taken place. I wasn't looking for any recognition. I was just doing what I would hope somebody would do if my family was in that situation.

NK: Deputy, thank you for your time.

MC: No problem. I appreciate your having me.

NK: Take care.

CH: We reached San Bernardino County Sheriff's Deputy Michael Castaneda in Yucaipa, California.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Québécois ChatGPT

CH: At last ChatGPT is available in a Québécois French accent, at least in theory, because from a few tests it seems like the AI bot is not doing the best job of understanding the very particular idioms or accent of Québécois French, according to the CBC's Quebec AM team, who tinkered with the tool. Here's what they asked ChatGPT itself about what it thinks of its new accent.

SOUNDCLIP

ChatGPT bot speaking Québécois French.

CH: It was a real challenge to get the AI tool to talk consistently with the Québécois accent. Host Julia Caron asked Michael Dow, a professor of linguistics and translation at Université de Montréal. Why ChatGPT wasn't getting it exactly right.

SOUNDCLIP

JULIA CARON: I've got a lot of questions, but I want to ask for your perspective first. You've tested out the Québécois accent feature. What do you think of how it sounds?

MICHAEL DOW: I thought it was a little inconsistent. I actually, I don't know what the magic formula was but, I didn't have any issues getting it to stay in a consistently Québécois accent, but I did notice other people having a similar problem there.

JULIA CARON: And we don't know why that varies so much necessarily.

MICHAEL DOW: Nope. No idea why.

JULIA CARON: Right. And when you were testing it out, Michael. Talk us through your process as a linguist. What did you do to... What kinds of questions did you ask? What kind of exercises did you use ChatGPT for?

MICHAEL DOW: So first I asked it to speak to me in a Québécois French and then I just prompted it with, there's certain key words or phrases that will be indicative of whether or not it's really mastered a certain phenomenon in the Québécois French pronunciation. So, I think I started out with something like, Can you tell me what makes a good white wine? Because the expression, 'Un bon vin blanc', will have, you know, all four of the nasal vowels of Québécois French. So, if it really says, un first of all, but then also if it has some of the particularities, so saying blan instead of blanc, you know, à la française, then, you know, that's one thing that it one way of getting at its particularities.

JULIA CARON: And what do you think it is about the Québécois accent that makes it difficult for a machine to replicate?

MICHAEL DOW: I don't know if it's anything really specific to Québécois French, But, you know, it's kind of an unenviable task because you have to figure out what's the norm. You have to kind of get rid of some of the geographical variation. But then it's really the social variation that I think is kind of tripping up to ChatGPT. And again, I think that probably due to the way that they trained it, but I don't think that's public. So, I think it's really the social cues that it's not really picking up on that we're just kind of used to.

CH: That was Michael Dow from the Department of Linguistics and Translation at Université de Montréal. He was speaking to Julia Caron, host of Quebec AM.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Part 3: N.S. KKK Firefighters, PA. Musk Giveaways, Ont. Safe Consumption, Carberry First Responders, British Parliamentary Tradition

N.S. KKK Firefighters

CH: On Saturday the North Sydney Firefighter's Club in Nova Scotia hosted a Halloween party in which people showed up in all kinds of fun costumes, and four people decided to show up wearing white robes and pointed hoods as members of the Ku Klux Klan organizers reportedly confiscated the cross they were also carrying, but let them stay once they removed the hoods. The club has since apologized and said the four people are not affiliated with the association, which has not mollified the people who've been expressing their outrage online. Jason MacLean is one of them. He's African Nova Scotian and his father is a retired firefighter who worked at the station in north Sydney. Mr. MacLean talked to the CBC about what he told his father and how he'd like to see this situation handled.

SOUNDCLIP

JASON MACLEAN: Well, the conversation with my father was pretty straightforward. He wanted to alert people that this was happening and this was out, but for the most part it's just hitting a lot of people today. I ended up posting about it. I wasn't going to, but just the internalized anger, I think people just need to know. People need to learn from this and there needs to be actions, positive actions that are taken from it. So, I can only assume that most people feel that way considering the posts of friends that I've seen. But it's just outrageous what happened there. And I just want to say this. The apology is fantastic, but it doesn't stop at an apology. I think there's true action that needs to be taken by the fire department because it just shows me with people not being outraged that there are issues within our society where people just think this is okay and it's not okay for somebody to act as if somebody is lesser than someone else. Let's be honest here. The Ku Klux Klan, all they ever did was discriminate against Black people in the U.S. and Canada and continue to do so today. And it's not something to be made fun of because I wouldn't feel safe just simply going out to the fire department and thinking I could take in a social event or something like that because it just shows that was accepted. So, I think the actions going forward need to be one fire department and say these actions are not accepted. And these are two reasons why. I do believe anybody that's attached to the fire department needs to take anti-Black racism training and really become spokespeople for why hatred exists and why it needs not exist any longer.

KYLE MOORE: So, you made a public post about this. Why did you feel, you know, you wanted to weigh in?

JASON MACLEAN: Just because I believe if somebody is silent on this, then you're telling people that it is okay and it's not okay. My kids are all grown now, but they've, you know. Counter some issues over time. I've encountered issues. Things aren't necessarily getting better. Things are getting more polite. But having acceptance of this is totally unacceptable. What we need to be able to do is simply just say no. Not around me. You're not doing that. People don't like to talk about race. You have to have uncomfortable conversations. And I hope this kicks it off for the fire department just to simply move ahead in an actionable manner to where they are showing that they're anti-racist.

CH: That was Jason MacLean speaking to CBC host Kyle Moore.

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PA. Musk Giveaways

Guest: Michael Kang

CH: One million dollars every day until Election Day. That's what Elon Musk is giving away to one person daily in the key swing state of Pennsylvania. To be eligible, you just need to be a registered voter and sign a petition pledging your support for the constitutional amendments, guaranteeing freedom of speech and the right to bear arms. Speaking of the US Constitution, though, last week the Justice Department issued a warning to Mr. Musk that the giveaways could break federal election law. He ignored that warning. And now Philadelphia's top district attorney has filed a lawsuit to block the contest, arguing that it is, quote, indisputably an unlawful lottery, unquote. Michael Kang is a professor specializing in election law at the Northwestern Pritzker School of Law. We reached him in Chicago.

NK: Professor, Philadelphia DA Larry Krasner says he is going after this as a potential illegal lottery instead of a violation of election law. What do you make of that tactic, that strategy?

MICHAEL KANG: Well, I think Krasner as a Pennsylvania official really doesn't have any control over whether there's a prosecution under federal law for illegal vote buying, which I think is really the main problem here. So, he does have control over whether to charge Elon Musk and his super PAC with an illegal lottery under a Pennsylvania state law. So, I think he's trying to do his best to stop Musk from continuing to run this program. So, he's going with what he's got.

NK: Do you think the DOJ could or should be doing something more?

MICHAEL KANG: I think they're doing probably the right amount for the moment. I think federal prosecutors are going to be really worried about intervening this close to the election. They're usually pretty sensitive to that and being perceived as taking one side or the other Here. Musk is very clearly on Trump's side trying to help Donald Trump. That's precisely the kind of legal worry involved. And so, I think probably DOJ wants to see if they can get Musk to stop on his own, because I think it'll probably backfire if they move to aggressively here. Musk will just kind of jujitsu this into, you know, some story about, you know, the deep state acting against Donald Trump and his supporters. I think probably after the election is really a time that they might want to be really clear about the illegality of this program because of the potential for kind of similar programs, maybe even bigger programs that happened earlier and have greater efficacy. And I think that's the long term worry here.

NK: If they do proceed eventually after the election, from a legal standpoint, from where you sit, given what you were describing, you know, the very vocal support Musk offers to Trump, he was on stage at Madison Square Garden over the weekend, uses his social media to bolster the Trump campaign as well. All of that context, it sounds like you're suggesting, will matter quite a bit if this case were to proceed.

MICHAEL KANG: All that context complicates things a lot and in both directions. I think on the one hand, it makes it, I think for me at least, very clear that this is an illegal program that this amounts to under federal law, paying people to register to vote. It's not that quite so directly, but I think the context here makes that conclusion inescapable and worrisome as a matter of federal policy, that it really contravenes the spirit of the prohibition on paying people to register to vote. But I think also the fact that Musk is very visibly and very publicly a Trump supporter makes it seem potentially like DOJ is taking sides against Trump here, at least among Trump supporters who are kind of prone to that narrative. You know, in almost any context. And so, I think DOJ is probably trying to tread very lightly, especially under a Democratic administration, to be seen, like, in the words of a lot of people on the political right in the United States to be weaponizing election law here to help Trump. So, I think they're very sensitive to that. And probably it makes sense to kind of make clear the potential worries, the legal worries with a program like this kind of after the election, it's not going to quell the narrative on the right, but I think it will at least allay some of the objective worries that really what DOJ here is trying to help, you know, Harris over Trump. And right now, I think DOJ is really sensitive to that worry.

NK: What's your sense of things as a voter in the U.S. watching this unfold? Do you think this, beyond the spectacle of it, which we know Musk enjoys, certainly. Do you think that these million dollar gifts, whatever we want to call them, could actually have an impact on the outcome?

MICHAEL KANG: I'm doubtful that this will actually have an outcome on the election for it to really affect the outcome in the presidential election. A lot of different things have to come into play. I don't think it has to affect the election outcome in the end for us to really worry about it, because I think there'll be more attempts to do this if it goes sort of unanswered. And I think it sends a really wrong signal about the way democracy works, that someone with immense wealth, as Elon Musk has, can kind of use that to reward and incentivize people to use their vote and register to vote for the people he favours. And that kind of very, very public salient use of personal wealth to try to affect the election outcomes I think is corrosive for democracy. I think it's part of the reason why we regulate campaign finance and we worry about, as much about the perception of corruption and the use of money in politics as the actual influence, the actual corruption that occurs. We worry a lot about how people think that democracy works. And I think programs like this where Musk is really kind of very publicly flaunting his wealth and using it at least creating the perception that he's going to change the outcome of the election with the million dollar giveaway is not good for the way that people think about democracy and have faith that democracy really serves the will of the people, as opposed to those of a few very wealthy people.

NK: Down the line. If the cases were to perceive the DOJ gets involved further, what kind of penalties could Elon Musk face if he were, in fact found to be in violation of election laws?

MICHAEL KANG: Well, nominally speaking, the penalties are a 10 thousand dollar fine, five years prison time or both of those for every instance. I think in the end, probably DOJ is not going to be really that focussed on putting Elon Musk in prison. That's not really their goal. What they want to do is make clear that they're not going to stand for this kind of attempt to circumvent laws on paying people to register to vote or to vote, because if they don't do something, I think there's going to be a lot of opportunities for probably even worse instances of this and that DOJ really will want to stop. It's really the presidential worry more than any desire to punish Musk specifically. I think if they don't do something about this one, we worry about what's coming down the pipe next time in the next election, maybe even earlier, of a greater magnitude and a greater efficacy.

NK: Professor Kang, thank you for this.

MICHAEL KANG: Thank you.

CH: Michael Kang is a professor of law at Northwestern Pritzker School of Law. We reached him in Chicago.

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Ont. Safe Consumption

CH: Hundreds of Ontario health care workers have a message for Premier Doug Ford. Closing supervised drug consumption sites will be disastrous. Over the summer, the province announced that it will be closing 10 supervised consumption sites by March of next year as a result of a ban on sites operating within 200 metres of schools and childcare centres. Most of those sites are in Toronto. Today, doctors, nurses and paramedics delivered an open letter to Premier Ford that was signed by 600 health care workers. It laid out why they believe these closures will have lasting consequences on the health care system and on people who use drugs. After delivering the letter, harm reduction worker and drug user Matt Johnson talked about what this will mean for their community.

SOUNDCLIP

MATT JOHNSON: I'm really tired you guys. Working in safe consumption sites is hard work at the very best of times. We have to witness a lot of really difficult things. We need to respond to overdoses. We need to witness people overdose multiple times. We need to mourn the loss of the people that we weren't able to save. We need to see people in the most difficult circumstances and often at their hardest times. So, to be able to do that work for years and then face the closure of all of the sites or most of the sites. I can't tell you the impact it has on people who do this work. The fear that that brings up and is the fear about what's going to happen to the people that we care about so much. I mentioned that I'm a drug user and I come from a community of people who use drugs. And that's true, but I don't really have a community left. There's really only a couple of us left from when I was a youth because the rest of my community has died from the toxic drug poisoning crisis. And it's really sad if I see somebody now that I haven't seen in a while and sort of saying, I'm happy to see you. I say, I'm glad that you're alive. It doesn't feel good to be one of the few survivors, one of the few people who are still alive. When I close my eyes, the faces of people who I have lost. Go through my mind and I don't want this for future generations. I don't want this for young people who are coming up now to lose entire communities, entire generations of people. Often when I decide about what kinds of organizations or movements I want to get behind. I think about how will future generations view this. How will future generations think about my actions? Or how will I think about my actions in the future? And I think we've seen a perpetual march towards a greater respect for human rights, a greater understanding of the services that are required to care for all of our society. And I know that if we go ahead with this, future generations will look back and say, What the hell did you do? Why would you set us up like this? This is a terrible, that was a terrible idea. And I urge you to pause while you still have the chance.

CH: That was harm reduction worker Matt Johnson speaking in Toronto earlier today.

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Carberry First Responders

CH: In June of last year, 17 people died when their bus was hit by a semi-truck in Carberry, Manitoba. Yesterday, the province honoured the first responders who rushed to the scene to do what they could to help. A total of 134 people were inducted into the Order of the Buffalo Hunt, including fire and emergency service workers, pilots, medical staff and dispatchers. Manitoba Premier Wab Kinew spoke to the inductees at the ceremony in Winnipeg.

SOUNDCLIP

WAB KINEW: [Applause] Wow. This is a room full of heroes. When I think of heroes, I think of people who run towards the danger while the rest of us are running away. And on that fateful day, that's what you folks did. And part of the reason why we wanted to gather and pay tribute is that I know not only did you go above and beyond not only did you save lives. Not only did you have each other's backs. I know that, I can only imagine that you took some stuff home with you that day as well, too. I wanted to take a moment to acknowledge the families who lost loved ones. Survivor and everyone really affected directly and through family and friend connections of this terrible tragedy. We've had the opportunity to gather in Dauphin. I know many of you were there to pay tribute to them. We did so as well in Carberry. And I want to thank the municipal and community, people who came together to make those amazing monuments and memorials so that we never forget the people that were lost and the impacts on our fellow Manitobans. But I thought it was important for us to also take a moment to acknowledge you and to express our gratitude and to express our support on an ongoing basis for each and every one of you. The province of Manitoba owes you a tremendous debt of gratitude. And we had to do something public to acknowledge the significance of what you did. And so, I hope that as you're on your own journeys to process and to heal and to reflect on what you have done to serve your fellow Manitobans, may this be some measure of encouragement and reassurance for you. That your good deeds do not go unnoticed, and in fact, we valorize them, we uplift them. And on behalf of the people of Manitoba, what you did that day represents the best of this province. So, Miigwetch. Merci. And thank you very much. [Applause].

CH: Manitoba Premier Wab Kinew speaking to first responders to the Carberry bus crash as they were inducted into the Order of the Buffalo Hunt in Winnipeg yesterday.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

British Parliamentary Tradition

Guest: Chris Curtis

CH: The Palace of Westminster is a stately place that houses the British Parliament, a place of decorum, of ceremony, of order.

SOUNDCLIP

Person shouting 'order' over a loud crowd.

CH: Well, there's supposed to be order, but that's what people like former Speaker John Bercow are for. And besides, disorder is itself a parliamentary tradition, one of many, many traditions, as it turns out. To many, according to a cohort of incoming newbie MPs. They'd like to do away with some of the old ways of doing things, starting with something called 'bobbing'. We reached New Labour MP Chris Curtis at the Palace of Westminster in London.

NK: Chris Curtis, first things first, our listeners need to know how does bobbing in your line of work, work?

CHRIS CURTIS: I mean, it's quite a strange old phenomenon as so much of Parliament is, but basically if you want to speak in the House of Commons, you have to catch the eye of the House of Commons Speaker. And the way we all do that as members of Parliament is by literally standing up and sitting down. Sometimes you can be doing this for hours on end, and then eventually, while you're listening to the debate that's happening in the chamber, then eventually you'll be called to speak.

NK: It's like, pick me, pick me, but just by sitting up and down. I can't imagine why you would not want this particular tradition to continue. What I mean, it sounds silly to those of us who aren't there, practically speaking. I mean, physically speaking, it would take a toll, I imagine. But what would you like to see change?

CC: Well, I mean, there's lots of things about the way the House parliament here in the UK operates that are based in tradition. And sometimes that tradition is great. And I think it's really important that we protect as much of the tradition as we can. But I think in some ways it does get in the way of a sort of an operating workplace that allows us to do the job that we're sent here to do as effectively and efficiently as possible. So, there's a few simple things. For example, like the fact that quite often we are sitting here until very late at night, most people who have got young kids, that's very difficult because they don't get to see their kids before bedtime. There's no reason why we can't move those hours back a bit earlier. And I think also just thinking about how you can, sure, make sure that people are staying in the House of Commons chamber listening to the debate, but not necessarily having to unpredictably sit there for hours and hours on end when there's lots of other bits of the job that we need to do, like making sure that we're fighting and representing our constituents. So, there's lots of things that I think we need to think about. The tradition is great. How can we do it better?

NK: So, a reformed timetable. But in terms of bobbing itself, what would replace that?

CC: Well, it's difficult to say. And maybe, maybe it's not necessarily something that you can replace. But there's lots of other places around the world where you can speak in a debate. And then when it's your time to speak, you stand up and speak and you're called to speak. And there's a set order to that and you can make sure that you're in the chamber for a set amount of time around that rather than having to sit there sometimes for seven/eight hours just standing up and down waiting for your opportunity to speak.

NK: Why do you think it's continued this long? I mean, I hear you and I agree that traditions are great to preserve, but one that is so taxing physically. It's strange that it's continued this, so maybe people this is their exercise for the day.

CC: No, it is definitely I mean, I can feel my legs getting stronger the longer I've been an MP in the House of Commons. But look, we have a lot of respect for traditions in this space. And actually, I think that is really important. I think we should definitely make sure that we ask ourselves a lot of questions before we make any changes to these traditions that go back. And traditions are important for many reasons. But actually, when you think about the importance of what we're doing here, making laws, which we're expecting millions of people across this country to follow, it is important that the institution that makes not passes those laws has some level of gravitas, and that often comes from those traditions.

NK: You're on the terrace overlooking the Thames, you were telling me before we started recording this conversation at Parliament. One of the other things on your to do list, along with some of your colleagues, is the physical condition of the place where you work. What do you see as you look around today and every day that needs to be upgraded?

CC: Yeah. And look, I have a fairly sort of nuanced view as may come across on many of the traditions of this place. But one thing that I think is incredibly serious is the state that we've allowed this building to go into. I mean, when you want to see what I can see around you, mice and rats quite often. And that's also true in our offices.

NK: Mice and rats.

CC: [cross talk] Mice and rats. But the chances of this place going up in flames at any point in the near future is not small. And that's quite scary. We wouldn't expect anyone in this country, apart from our members of Parliament, to be going into a workplace every day where there's a realistic chance they could go up in flames. We do seriously need to start looking at options for how we can as effectively and efficiently as possible, take this Parliament from its current state of disrepair and get it back up into a place where it is operational again. And so far, that can has been kicked further and further and further down the road to the point where it's now incredibly dangerous. And I think we need to be the Parliament that recognizes that and acts to fix it.

NK: You're also looking to bring some other changes, including a return to digital voting, more Liberal rules around what MPs can and cannot wear. What are the rules on that right now?

CC: I mean, some of these I don't care about so much. I have to say I don't mind; I don't mind wearing a tie so much, but I know some of my... Oh, there's a mouse that's just appeared. [NK: Oh, boy]. Some of my other colleagues.

NK: Are you safe, Chris? Are you ok?

CC: I'm safe, yeah. I'm not scared of them. I know that some of my colleagues definitely find it a bit frustrating. But look, I mean, you know, there's obviously debates to be had on many of these issues. But I think, you know, the most important question we have to be going is, we have to be asking is how can we make it a more family friendly place to work? How can we make it an effective place to work? But more importantly than any of those two things, how can we make it a safe place to work? So, that I'm not you know, I'm not standing in committees thinking if this place goes up in flames, will I survive diving out the window and that's a thought that across my mind on a regular basis.

NK: Chris Curtis I'm glad we could speak. I'm glad you're safe. This is certainly the only time that I know of that a mouse has crashed our interview. So, thank you for that as well.

CC: Have a lovely evening.

NK: You too.

CH: Chris Curtis is a newly elected Labour MP. We reached him in London.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

CH: The chips keep falling where they may. Last week, I defended the sanctity of Canada's beloved or at least be-liked, ketchup chips after actor Andrew Garfield referred to the flavour as, quote, kind of a sin, unquote. And then we asked for your boldest chip opinions or chipinions and you responded. Now, after reading your messages and hearing your calls, I've realized that chips have a lot in common with fine art. It's all subjective. Beauty is on the tongue of the beholder and every chip flavour has its person. Except when it comes to Hostess fruit flavoured chips. Last week we got this call which we shared with you.

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SPARKY STEEVES: Sparky Steeves calling from Rossland, B.C. I just had to ask if anyone remembers a short period in the Maritimes in the 70s, maybe the 80s, probably 70s of fruit flavoured potato chips by Hostess chips. There was orange, grape and probably cherry. They didn't last long, but I just want to make sure this isn't some kind of weird flashback. Thanks. Love your show. Bye Bye.

CH: Well, I was personally able to confirm that Sparky was not having a flashback, because I also remember those fruit flavoured chips, and I actually ate the grape ones in Ontario as a child. And Sparky will be relieved to hear that we're not alone. In an email, Jennifer Duffield wrote. "I was literally just talking about the hostess chip debacle with the grape chips. It was at our family and friends Thanksgiving dinner and everyone looked at me like I was crazy". No. Ms. Duffield, grape flavoured chips did exist. Any dismissive looks you received across the dinner table were unjust. And here are a couple more callers who will help our cause.

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DAWN SECORD: [Voicemail tone] Hi, this is Dawn Secord calling from Sault Ste. Marie. I remember those flavoured chips, and there's so many people that don't believe me, so I feel vindicated. Thank you.

JOHN M: [Voicemail tone] John McGoldrick in Nanaimo, B.C. I'm just calling in regards to the piece you had about Hostess chips. I was alive at that point and sometime in the late '70s I would imagine, because I had remembered that there was orange, grape and banana chips being sold. But the only photographic proof I can see that it's orange, grape and cherry chips and they did not last longer than a few weeks, if I recall. Nobody liked them, but we did buy them. Well, we were kids and they were 25 cents and they were new.

CH: Exactly. Thank you, Dawn, for vindicating all of us who remember hostess fruit flavoured chips, even if we wish we didn't. And thank you, John, for confirming that they were, in fact, bad. And if anyone else remembers trying one of Hostess grape, cherry, orange or potentially banana flavoured chips, John, I'm not sure those existed, but if you have a story to tell about another surprising chip flavour from your childhood, please let us know. You can write us or leave a voice note at aih@cbc.ca. Or even better, call us at (416) 205-5687.

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CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

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The AIH Transcript For October 29, 2024

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