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The AIH Transcript for October 28, 2024

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Fear of commitment. The Washington Post will not endorse a presidential candidate, and the paper's former editor tells us he believes it is bowing to pressure from one of the candidates in particular.

CH: Gut-punch lines. At the big Donald Trump rally in New York a comedian describes Puerto Rico as a "floating island of garbage". A former mayor of its capital city tells us what she thought of his routine.

NK: Cinema all-too-verité. As Israel continues to bomb Lebanon, displaced people find shelter and support in the country's historic movie theatres.

CH: They have a few notes. The Canadian Medical Association calls for a law banning employers from demanding doctor's notes to prove an employee is unwell.

NK: Chopin spree. A curator in New York is stunned to stumble across the sheet music to a previously unheard waltz and could barely compose himself when he learned who had composed it.

CH: And asked them some questions and they'll tell you no lice. American Airlines announces a plan to comb out people who try to board the flight before they've been called, also known as 'Gate Lice'. As It Happens the Monday edition. Radio that supports this kind of nit picking.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Washington Post Endorsement, Lebanon Theatre Shelter, New Chopin Waltz, Gate Lice

Washington Post Endorsement

Guest: Marty Baron

CH: The Washington Post's slogan is Democracy dies in darkness, but everyone is in the dark as to who the paper officially supports in the U.S. election. For the first time in 36 years, the Post will not endorse a candidate for president. William Lewis, the publisher and CEO of the paper, made the announcement last week. But reporting from the New York Times and other outlets suggests the decision came down from the paper's owner, Amazon tycoon Jeff Bezos. The decision echoes the Los Angeles Times choice to also skip an endorsement this year. At both papers, editors had planned to endorse Kamala Harris. Marty Baron was the executive editor of The Washington Post from 2012 until his retirement in 2021. We reached him in Stockbridge, Massachusetts.

NK: Marty Baron, a lot of readers of The Washington Post were certainly stunned by this decision, by this news. Were you surprised?

MARTY BARON: Well, I'm not surprised very much these days. I was certainly disappointed and deeply upset about this, because when I was the executive editor of The Washington Post, Jeff Bezos stood behind us all the way. He endured a lot of pressure from Donald Trump, and Trump threatened his business, Amazon and all of that. And he didn't he didn't bend at all. And I see this development as yielding to Trump's pressure.

NK: Why do you think that changed? What has happened?

MB: Well, it looks like Trump might well get back into the White House. He's spoken to ever more virulently about exacting vengeance on his political enemies. He's always viewed Bezos as a political enemy solely because of the coverage of the Washington Post. He continues to detest the coverage of The Washington Post. And he holds Bezos responsible. And now it looks like there won't be any guardrails in the second Trump administration. Previously, he had people in positions of power in his cabinet and other agencies who told him that he couldn't and shouldn't do things. Now it's clear that he's going to appoint complete loyalists to every cabinet post, every government agency, and perhaps throughout the federal bureaucracy. And at the same time, he's being advised and supported by people who are traditional rivals of Jeff Bezos. A clear example of that is Elon Musk, who has, who's the owner of Space X, and Jeff Bezos has his own space company, private space company Blue Origin. And his business could be hurt.

NK: So, when Will Louis Lewis. Jeff Bezos, quote, was not sent, did not read and did not opine on any draft, unquote. You don't buy that, it sounds like.

MB: Well, that might be true, but that's very narrowly written. Doesn't say that he wasn't involved. It doesn't say that he didn't make the decision. All it says is that he wasn't sent a draft of the editorial. It doesn't say that he wasn't involved in the decision not to run presidential endorsement. If that's the case, why haven't they said so? Of course, they haven't done that, and I don't expect them to.

NK: This decision was released, announced on Friday before this weekend's Trump rally, which you've seen the headlines and concerns about. We'll be talking about that on our program as well. Do you think that given the concerns about this past weekend's rally at Madison Square Garden, that they would, that there would be any change in this decision?

MB: Well, I don't know. I can't predict what they will do. I don't anticipate any change in the decision. They just declared that this is a matter of paramount principle. It would be strange for them to say, okay, well, we were wrong about that. We're now going to publish a presidential endorsement. You know, so I don't expect them to change, notwithstanding the racist things that were said at that rally at Madison Square Garden.

NK: Have you cancel your subscription to The Washington Post?

MB: I have not. I have not. And I won't. Look, I'm supporting the strong investigative work that The Washington Post continues to do. I have my, they are my former colleagues. They continue to do excellent investigative work. I can't even imagine our democracy without the kind of work that's been done by the superb journalists at The Washington Post. And I want to support that work.

NK: What would you say to people who have been quite public about cancelling their subscriptions, thinking that it will send the paper a strong message?

MB: Well, I think the paper has gotten the message, and I would say that I understand why they're upset. I'm upset as well. And I understand their desire to register their concern. But the effect of their actions is going to be to reduce the resources available for strong investigative work. There aren't that many substantial news organizations in this country, in the United States, that are doing the kind of investigative work that the Post is doing that have the resources to stand up to the attacks from powerful individuals and powerful institutions. We need those kinds of institutions and our democracy will be substantially weaker if we don't have journalistic institutions like The Post.

NK: Do you think people should take that kind of a protest to Amazon then, given what you said about Bezos?

MB: No, I'm not advising them on how to how to register their protests. You know, they can protest however they wish. Maybe they just want to cancel their subscription for a week or something like that just to send a message, but or maybe cancel their Amazon Prime subscription. I have no idea. Or maybe they just want to send an email to the publisher and tell him how upset they are. I'm registering my protest by giving interviews like this one.

NK: If this is the result of pressure from Trump, ostensibly as you believe it is before the election, what is your message to editors and journalists if Trump were to win this election?

MB: Well, Trump's been attacking the press for. For a very long time, ever since he launched his first campaign for the presidency in 2015, it's gotten only worse. He promises to do severe damage to journalism and to an independent press, notwithstanding the First Amendment to the Constitution. He has always counted as one of his great triumphs that public confidence in the press has declined. But he contributed to that. I think he will try to continue doing that. He will try to undermine the economic stability, further undermine the economic stability of the press in this country. He's threatened to withdraw the licenses of local affiliates of the national networks because of coverage that he finds contrary to his interests. He has talked about wanting to put journalists in jail because they receive leaks from the federal government. He has said that once in jail, they'll meet their spouse, which means that they would be subjected to sexual assault. He has... So, I imagine he will also restrict access to information in a variety of ways and engage in all sorts of other threatening behaviour. So, I think it'll be a tough time and I think that's why all of us need to stand strong against that kind of pressure that sort of pressure that's authoritarian in nature. And it's very important that everybody, individual journalists, publishers and owners stand strong against that kind of behaviour.

NK: Marty Baron, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

MB: Thank you.

CH: Marty Baron is the former executive editor of The Washington Post. We reached him in Stockbridge, Massachusetts.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Lebanon Theatre Shelter

Guest: Kassem Istanbouli

CH: There are some of the last great movie palaces left in Lebanon and the cities of Tyre, Tripoli and Beirut they've been reborn in recent years as cultural hubs with arts programming, screening films and hosting dance and theatre groups. But now those buildings have another job. As Israel's bombing campaign continues. They've become shelters for displaced people. Kassem Istanbouli is the director of the not for profit Tiro Association for the Arts. We reached him in Tripoli, Lebanon.

NK: Kassem. If I were able to visit one of these theatres today, what would I see inside? How many people are staying in these three theatres across Lebanon?

KASSEM ISTANBOULI: Now we have more than 120 people. We have different families Lebanese, Syrian, Palestinian. We have French family. We have African families and Sudanese families. And this is an important space is open for all the people who are suffering from war in Lebanon. We also organized different training workshops for children and youth by theatre, hand craft, puppets, storytelling. It's important.

NK: It's just cutting out a little bit there. But I got what you were saying. I've seen some photographs Kassem, of these theatres, they're historic, they're beautiful. But for those who haven't seen the photographs, can you describe what they look like?

KI: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the spaces. I mean, we have the cinema... It's the old cinema since 1952. If anyone visits they see old posters, there's still the old chairs that, still we keep the memory of the space as heritage culture the space. In Beirut now we opened the cinema, during the war we started to clean the cinema and to paint and to do all this stuff of work. And the cinema, Empire cinema in Tripoli. It's also oldest cinema opened in Lebanon, the oldest one since 1952. It's a beautiful cinema with 800 seats. It's a very big cinema and it's space opened for everyone in Lebanon, and anyone can use the space. We have library in theatre in Tripoli and also we have cinema theatre and cafe for all the time. And now arts is important in peace and war.

NK: You were doing this work before the war too. You acquired these theatres to renovate them and make sure they were cultural hubs and now they've taken on this new role. That cultural work you talked about the sessions for children. How do you keep those going?

KI: I mean, before one year, I mean, we start to, just to organize training and workshops for the displaced children near the borders. It's a very difficult time. I mean, we have many families in the streets. Important to keep the space open. And then we host the people. They cook in the cinema; they clean the cinema together. They, but we keep doing activities at least. And also, we screen movies. Last week we screen movies for Chaplin for the children and I, we I am very happy that the children they laugh and they forget the world for short hours.

NK: We're hearing reports of airstrikes and evacuation orders as well in Tyre. What are you hearing from people there?

KI: I mean, it's very difficult, the situation in Tyre, especially today. I mean, we opened the cinema also today for the new people. They come because they lose their building. It's very difficult situation. And now not, nothing's safe in Lebanon. I mean, this is a difficult thing any place under war and we hope to be soon for Lebanon.

NK: You mentioned the children laughing, watching that Chaplin film. What else are those children and their families telling you and your team about having a place to go, having access to arts and culture in this time?

KI: Yeah, for the families they need, they know it will become winter in Lebanon. They need a place that they can home. At least they feel, they need to be together as a family and not to be in the street. This is the goal for them and the goal for the children, they need joy. They need happiness. They need to laugh because they suffer a lot from the situation and from the war. And for the for us also in Tyre when we, at the beginning of the war, we lose one of our trainees, Celina, she's six years old and they destroyed all their houses and all the family they die together and only Selah, her sister, she's still alive.

NK: I'm so sorry for your loss, Kassem. Just to be clear, you said one of your trainees and their family were killed in airstrikes. Did I hear that correctly?

KI: Yes. Yes, Yes, they did. They bombed their house and they live near the cinema and their family, the normal family, they have, they sell food near the cinema in the street. And they are normal family in Lebanon. They fight to be alive. A normal life is a problem with Lebanon. And Celina and Selah they are our trainees. They always come to watch movies in the cinema. We don't understand any why they destroyed their family. They destroyed their home. [NK: How old are they] Celina six years and Selah 12 year old. They are together, they come usually to the, to draw in the cinema and Celina before one day she draw the last drawing in the cinema.

NK: What kinds of drawings do the children at your theatres draw? What do you see them communicate through those pictures?

KI: In the cinema when they draw, they always draw their homes, their houses, and they dream to come back. Many of them. They lost the houses, but they don't lost the hope. This is the most important that the children in Lebanon, the children in [inaudible] or in Beirut or in Tripoli, they all dream one dream to go back because nothing can give them happiness, only to come back to their villages. And this has give us a lot of energy, give us hope for the future. We will not lose the hope. This is the most important because this we need to do everyday theatre and cinema and to open the space for people. And we can do everything we can do to keep the space open for people. The problem this war destroyed everything, destroyed the building, the people, the memory. Everything's all the beautiful, all the beauty. And this is war.

NK: Kassem, I appreciate your time. Please stay safe. Thank you.

KI: Thank you very much.

CH: Kassem Istanbouli is the director of the not for profit Tiro Association for the Arts. We reached him in Tripoli, Lebanon.

New Chopin Waltz

Guest: Robinson McClellan

[Music: New Chopin waltz played by Lang Lang]

CH: This is an unnamed waltz that's thought to have been written almost 200 years ago. But this performance by the great pianist Lang Lang, is the first available recording of that waltz. The sheet music was uncovered earlier this year at the Morgan Library and Museum in Manhattan, tucked away in an album. Curator Robinson McClellan was pretty excited to discover it, not only because it's a beautiful piece of music, but because it was apparently written by a composer you may have heard of named Frédéric Chopin. We reached Robinson McClellan in New York.

NK: Robinson, it is such a beautiful piece of music, achingly beautiful even. What do you hear, though, beyond that when you listen to it?

ROBINSON MCCLELLAN: So, I agree. It's really a lovely little gem. And I've, in the response we've gotten people consistently hear Chopin, genuine Chopin kind of on a gut level. And that's been my experience as well. You know, technically, we cannot, we can't prove that he wrote it. We are sure beyond a reasonable doubt that he wrote it down, that it's his hand on the paper, his original manuscript. But, you know, there's always the possibility that it's a work that he wrote for a student or in some other context. But again, it really has that Chopin feeling.

NK: How would you describe that feeling and those sounds?

RM: There's just this combination of lyricism and melancholy and sort of direct to the gut connection that people have that I think is particular to him as a composer. I mean, you know, many great composers are majestic and incredible and beautiful and moving. But Chopin has this sort of very intimate, you know, personal quality that's really special.

NK: And so, in that moment that you're looking through these albums, these boxes and you see Voss and Chopin before your eyes, what did you think?

RM: Well, so as a kind of a person of a scholarly disposition and professionally obliged in that way as well, you know, I was more cautious than excited at first. I was, I knew that it could be something really exciting. But given the sort of how unusual and unlikely it is, I took a sort of guilty until proven otherwise approach.

NK: You were skeptical. Okay, that's healthy. But were you excited underneath? Come on.

RM: But I was, yeah. And when I took a snapshot with my phone and blew it, you know, as you, saw, it's a really tiny, you know, index card size... And it's, you know, it's, the writing is tiny. So, I blew it up a bit and took home a photocopy or a printout and played it at home. And that's when I felt I think that's the moment I felt, you know, I could enjoy the excitement a bit more, you know, and feeling like if this is what I think it is, I might be the first person in modern times to be hearing this tune of this great, you know, this great composer.

NK: In terms of authentication, as much as you could, you know, I hear what you're saying about the difficulties, but what kinds of things did you and the teams employ to get to this point?

RM: Yeah. Well, so the first thing I did was to call the real expert, one of the leading Chopin scholars, Jeffrey Carlberg who, it became a kind of a team effort. And we've had a lot of fun working together. He's really someone that knows Chopin's music and his history so deeply. And so, he wrote back almost right away, saying that he was equally cautiously excited, you know, that he, it had the stamp of genuine Chopin to his eye. So very quickly, he came to the Morgan and I took it to the Morgan's team of conservators who examined it with all their scientific instruments, you know, to verify the type of paper and ink and so forth. And it all sort of matched up with the period that Jeffrey thought it was from the early 1830s. And then we went from there and there was further research, background, you know, finding the context in Chopin's life and so forth to further verify it. And it was really a whole process.

NK: And what do you make of the fact that it is so small, as you said, the size of an index card? Why would it be on such a small card? Why would it be such a short piece? I think what I've seen online or heard online is just about a minute and 15 seconds or so.

RM: Yeah. So, it's it seems to come from a kind of subgenre of 19th century music, which were little gifts, manuscripts. Sometimes they're called album leaves. Where a composer would write out a bit of music and hand it over to a friend as a gift. Chopin often would give gifts to women. And we believe that may be the case here but we don't know who.

NK: And what about other classical music fans? I mean, how are they responding to this? I'm sure you're getting emails and messages about this.

RM: Yeah, I'm getting quite an outpouring, I would say. And if you peruse the, just the comments and in the New York Times article, it's really been quite moving to see the way people are connecting with it. I think part of it is, you know, it's a time of sort of political tension at the moment, especially here. But I think around the world and people are feeling there's sort of a joy in finding something just that's purely wonderful. I think so many people have that sense of a really personal connection to Chopin, and it transcends the community of strictly, let's say, classical music people. It sort of has this broader connection.

NK: I really felt that listening in between different interviews today, that that sense of beauty and calm. So, I can understand why people are reacting this way. So, what do you think? What do you hope will happen next? Do you want people to be performing this more and more? What would you like to hear?

RM: Yeah, I think I definitely hope people will perform it and study it and appreciate it. I also feel that despite everything we have done leading up to this point, or because of everything we've done, we really consider this only the beginning of the process. Because once you know, music doesn't really come alive until it's out in the world and people are playing it and hearing it and talking about it, and we don't know what will happen. We might have someone come and say, we disagree with your conclusion. And that's all part of why we want it out in the world to be part of the public discussion. And I'm hoping that will be lively.

NK: Robinson Thank you.

RM: Thank you so much.

CH: Robinson McClellan is a composer and curator at the Morgan Library and Museum. We reached him in New York.

[Music: New Chopin waltz played by Lang Lang]

Gate Lice

SOUNDCLIP

NARRORATOR: When it comes to lice, the ick factor is huge, especially when you think about the hard to eradicate super lice.

CH: That video from the Mayo Clinic is right. Lice are gross. They wriggle around and make you uncomfortable. They get into flight attendant's hair and they're very hard to get rid of. Their Tilley hat falls off and when they reach down to pick it up, their sunglasses fall off and break. One of their grandkids laughs and they say, Braxton, it's not funny. And then Braxton starts crying. Someone has to run off and buy him a Cinnabon. You know, I'm not talking about standard lice. You know the creatures that annoy you by living in your hair and sucking blood from your scalp. I'm talking about gate lice. The human beings who annoy you by charging up to the gate before their zone is called. Desperate to get on the flight and secure an overhead compartment for their karaoke machine and/or kayak. Well, now American Airlines is getting out its metaphorical fine toothed lice comb. Here's Sam Brock from NBC's Today show.

SOUNDCLIP

SAM BROCK: American announcing it's currently testing new tech that will tell gate agents when someone's trying to board ahead of their assigned group. Alerting them with an audible beep and an onscreen message.

CH: You know, it's a really good idea to go with the audible beep. American Airlines says that in early trials in airports in Arizona, New Mexico and Virginia, this pilot project, no pun intended, is working pretty well. The audible beeps are shaming the gate lice into waiting their turns. In anywhere other than an airport this kind of public humiliation to force compliance would seem disturbing and Orwellian. But in an airport where everyone is at their misanthropic worst, it seems just and right, especially if there is also jeering. And honestly, the same beeps may prevent things from escalating because sometimes at the airport, when you jump the queue, the queue jumps you.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Part 2: Trump Puerto Rico, North Korean Troops in Russia, CMA Sick Notes, FOA: Dwayne Wade Statue

Trump Puerto Rico

Guest: Carmen Yulín Cruz

CH: At a rally at Madison Square Garden in New York City yesterday, Donald Trump made his usual pitch to the crowd, but one of his warmup act stole the spotlight. During his time onstage, comedian Tony Hinchcliffe mocked migrants, shared racist stereotypes about Black and Jewish communities, and described Puerto Rico as a, quote, "island of garbage", unquote. The Trump campaign was quick to disavow Mr. Hinchcliffe routine, saying it, quote, "does not reflect the view of President Trump or the campaign", unquote. But the damage may already have been done, especially in key states like Pennsylvania, which is home to a large Puerto Rican community. Carmen Yulín Cruz is the former mayor of San Juan, Puerto Rico, representing the Popular Democratic Party. We reached her in San Juan.

NK: Carmen Yulín, what did you think when you heard what was said on that stage specifically about Puerto Rico?

CARMEN YULÍN CRUZ: You know, I was really appalled. I couldn't believe that I was listening to this. So, I went back a couple of times. And the more the insult dawned on me and the more it dawned on me that it wasn't a joke, just brought me back to that paper towel throwing moment. When Donald Trump came to Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria. And rather than offering his condolences for the things that were happening or the people that were dying, he just insulted us and threw paper towels at us.

NK: No community is a monolith, of course, but when that same comedian said on stage "where are my proud Latinos at" there was applause and cheering, you know, I can't say for sure who it was that, who, that was applauding. But when you hear about people who are supporting Donald Trump, even as those comments went on to be made, what do you want voters to take away from what was said there?

CYC: The people that speak at those rallies represent Donald Trump. I was a surrogate for Bernie Sanders presidential campaign and we were all co-presidents. So, we knew that when we spoke at a rally or when we spoke, we were speaking for Bernie. So, there was no way that anyone can say today, this does not represent what Donald Trump feels. Well, first of all, Donald Trump should have come out and said that to begin with. But what I would like the Latino people to know and the Latino men especially, is that this false manhood of Donald Trump trying to appear as a tough guy, this name calling, calling people that come from Central and South America, rapists and murderers, this vice president that is a candidate telling people in Ohio that they were eating, immigrants were eating cats and dogs. This rhetoric is a rhetoric of hate. I hope that they open their eyes and their ears and their hearts and understand that this is not something in passing. This is who this man is. And eventually, if he has to run us all over in order to get ahead, he will do so without batting an eye. He is dangerous, unhinged. He's a misogynist and he represents all the bad things that a human being can represent.

NK: Donald Trump, as you've likely seen, has seen a significant bump in polling with Latino voters, Latino men in particular. September polling by NBC News, Telemundo and CNBC found Kamala Harris still has a commanding lead among Latina voters. But that Trump and Harris are virtually tied among Latino men. That is a big shift compared to 2020. [CYC: Yes]. What do you think explains that or accounts for that?

CYC: One is the misconception that the Harris administration has not been forceful at the border. Right. These campaigns poll over time. They know that immigration is a big hot ticket item just as reproductive rights for women. So, Donald Trump wanted to run on this being a problem so that he could fan all this huff and puff about immigrants and Latinos being murderers, rapists, gang members. And so...

NK: Wouldn't that turn people, Latino voters off?

CYC: You'd, you would want them to be turned off. And I hope that because of yesterday's comments, people understand that this is a person that would say anything to get your vote and will do anything then not to have you sit at the table. So, what I hope that last night underscores is the fact that they're not even trying to be civil anymore and that they would just insult anyone if it helps them get ahead.

NK: There are, though, big Puerto Rican artists, Nicky Jam, Justin Keats, who have spoken out, you know, endorsing, endorsing Donald Trump. He won the 2024 primary there. There was a man quoted a sixty year old man quoted by Reuters saying, he said he was going to vote for Trump until what he heard on that stage yesterday. But he is going to just sit this election out. What would you say to folks who are going to go that route?

CYC: Well, don't. When you're, letting when you're sitting this election out, you're letting people that believe what Donald Trump believes, which is that a divided United States is a better United States. And the world knows that a divided United States is the enemy not only of democracy in the U.S., but in the world. So, don't sit out the election. There are two clear candidates here, one that wants division. The other one, Kamala Harris, that wants unity and that wants to underscore that we may be different, but that is not an excuse not to work together.

NK: Do you think, Carmen Yulín, that the comments on that stage, the uproar around them and some have brushed it off, saying, you know, this this doesn't represent Trump himself, but obviously many people feel differently. Do you think that those comments will anger Latino voters enough to make a difference, you know, in battleground states such as Pennsylvania? Given what we've seen in the polling?

CYC: Yes, I think it will anger the voters. There is no way that he's going to be able to back-pedal from this. Puerto Rican voters are a very important group when it comes to those seven swing states. So, let's not forget that three thousand or more Puerto Ricans are dead because of Donald Trump, because he made it very difficult for us to receive the type of services and aid that we were supposed to receive after Hurricane Maria. So, I hope that people of clear conscience and good hearts don't want to join and share in the blood that Donald Trump has in his hands with those more than three thousand people in Puerto Rico. His true colours are showing and they're dull and they're ugly. So, vote as if your life depends on it, because literally your life depends on it.

NK: Carmen Yulín, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

CYC: Thank you very much.

CH: Carmen Yulín Cruz is the former mayor of San Juan, Puerto Rico. That's where we reached her.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

North Korean Troops in Russia

CH: NATO is acknowledging that North Korean troops have arrived in Russia. Intelligence reports about a North Korean deployment began surfacing earlier this month. Then last week, U.S. and Ukrainian officials confirmed that thousands of North Korean soldiers had arrived in eastern Russia, not far from where Ukrainian soldiers have driven a counter incursion in Kursk. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said he expected the North Koreans to join the battle at some point this week. And today in Brussels, NATO's Secretary General Mark Rutte gave the alliance's first formal recognition of the situation.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK RUTTE: Today, I can confirm that North Korean troops have been sent to Russia and that North Korean military units have been deployed to the coastal region. The deployment of North Korean troops represents one, a significant escalation in the DPRKs ongoing involvement in Russia's illegal war. Two yet another breach of UN Security Council resolutions. And three, a dangerous expansion of Russia's war. NATO calls on Russia and the DPRK to cease these actions immediately. The deepening military cooperation between Russia and North Korea is a threat to both the Indo-Pacific and Euro-Atlantic security. It undermines peace on the Korean Peninsula and fuels the Russian war against Ukraine. Pyongyang has already supplied Russia with millions of rounds of ammunition and ballistic missiles that are fuelling a major conflict in the heart of Europe and undermining global peace and security. In exchange, Putin is providing North Korea with military technology and other support to circumvent international sanctions. This underlines the importance of democracies standing together to uphold our values and to face our shared security challenges. But the deployment of North Korean troops to Kursk is also a sign of Putin's growing desperation. Over six hundred thousand Russian soldiers have been killed or wounded in Putin's war, and he is unable to sustain his assault on Ukraine without foreign support. This is because the Ukrainians are fighting back with courage, resilience and ingenuity. NATO allies will continue to support a free and democratic Ukraine because Ukraine's security is our security.

CH: NATO's secretary general, Mark Rutte, speaking in Brussels today.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

CMA Sick Notes

Guest: Joss Reimer

CH: You wake up feeling like a bulldozer ploughed into you and then another bulldozer ploughed into that bulldozer. Your head hurts. You're congested. Every movement is uncomfortable. You feel and sound disgusting. So, you call in sick to work. But just as you're about to roll over and go back to sleep, your phone vibrates. It's your boss reminding you that you will need to get a doctor's note. It seems unfair and it's annoying. And according to the Canadian Medical Association, it's bad policy. So, today the CMA called for legislation to restrict employers from requiring sick notes from people who miss work for only a few days. Dr. Joss Reimer is the president of the Canadian Medical Association. We reached her in Winnipeg.

NK: Doctor Reimer, I don't think I know anyone who is happy to have to provide a doctor's note if they have a cold or the flu. Why do so many companies still require this?

JOSS REIMER: Well, right now it's really a human resource issue. And so, employers are using physicians as a way to verify that someone is sick. And like you said, when someone has a headache or a cold, the last thing that they want to do is leave their house and go to a doctor when they don't need medical care. They just need time to rest and get better. And so, there's this idea that the doctor can somehow verify that somebody's actually been sick and help control this human resource issue. One of the things that we're really flagging in this circumstance is that we often can't even verify what's going on because people often come to us after they're no longer sick. So, you imagine someone has a migraine and they come the next day to let us know. And the best I can say is that they told me they had a headache.

NK: And we do reporting on this all the time. And you are certainly familiar with what's happening with our health care system. The number of Canadians who don't even have a family doctor to go to is a serious reality in this country. And so, if they have to get a sick note they need to go somewhere else. Where are they going? What are they doing?

JR: Well, that's exactly right. So first off, six and a half million Canadians don't have access to a family provider. And there's, you know, many more people than that about 75 per cent of Canadians who can't get a visit on the same day or within one day. And so, when they're sick and they need an urgent visit, they're having to go to walk in clinics or sometimes even to the emergency room. We're hearing from emergency doctors that they're regularly providing sick notes as well. And when people need emergency care and they're already waiting hours in those emergency room waiting rooms, the last thing we want to hear is that the reason they didn't get to see the emergency room doc a little faster is because they're filling out a sick note for somebody who doesn't even need medical care at all.

NK: And in terms of statistics, what did your report find out about the number of Canadians who need a sick note each year?

JR: Well, we found that a third of working Canadians were asked by their employers to produce a sick note for a short term absence at least once in the last year. So, if a third of us have to do this every year, these numbers are going to be huge. So, we're estimating that about 12.5 million unnecessary health care interactions are happening each year because of these short term illnesses that don't require any medical intervention. And when we go back to that number that there's six and a half million Canadians who don't have access to a family physician, getting rid of these sick notes could make a major impact on people's ability to access that family doctor.

NK: There is a reality for employers, Certainly absenteeism can be a serious issue. So, what would you say to employers who are concerned about that becoming a more serious problem? What options would you suggest to them would get them a better result? You know, in the kind of proof, I guess, that they're looking for, but not become a burden as you're, as you're describing it on the health care system?

JR: Well, there's no question it is a human resource issue. So, I can understand why employers are concerned. They want to have a productive workforce, but physicians don't need to be involved in this process. Like I said, often people are coming when they're not sick anymore. And so, I'm asked to verify that someone was sick. And all I can do is just write a sick note saying that they told me what their symptoms were. And that's something that anybody could do. And in fact, if they weren't sick, and if they're not telling the truth to their physician, it's going to be even harder for the employer to deal with that human resource issue once they have that sick note in their hand. So, and the other issue is that we heard that 82 per cent of Canadians would rather go to work sick than get a sick note. [NK: Well, that's not good either right.] By coming to work. No. And that goes against the whole public health messaging to stay home when you're sick. So, either they're coming into the office with their virus and spreading it to their work there, in their workplace or they're coming to the clinic and spreading it to people who are already sick. And either option is going to be bad because we're going to see more spread of that virus. And for employers, they're going to lose out on even more employees needing to stay home because they're sick.

NK: So, what kind of verification would you suggest to them?

JR: So, we'd like to see things like a self-attestation form. If you're having to legally attest that you were sick that becomes much easier for the employer to deal with someone if they're lying on that form. They also could do flexible leave policies where, you know, you don't necessarily have to be sick. You're sick days can be for whatever reason, you want to not be at work that day, including when you're ill. These are just a couple of the options that are available to employers. But at the end of the day, we just want to get physicians out of this human resource issue and instead dealing with the many, many Canadians who just don't have access to the care they need.

NK: Would you suggest that doctors charge the employers requiring these kinds of sick notes?

JR: You know, what we don't want to do is punish the patients who are coming to see us. Often they're folks who are in lower income jobs and they're going to...

NK: I mean their bosses, should their companies have to pay for those?

JR: No, absolutely. But it becomes really challenging if they don't pay and then we don't offer the sick note, we don't want them to be punished by their employer because the employer gets charged and doesn't want to pay it. So, it becomes really tricky. And the individual physicians don't have any way to enforce this payment. What we just want to do is get us out of this human resource issue altogether.

NK: There's been some change provincially on this front. As you know, Nova Scotia passed legislation banning sick notes for short term leave. Quebec, similar legislation there. Ontario says it is encouraging employers to find other options. Do you think the days of the sick note are numbered?

JR: Well, I certainly hope they are. And we, like you've said in Ontario, Quebec and Nova Scotia, we've seen legislation that's going to be moving in this direction. And this is a great start. All of them, though, still have an option, once people hit a certain number of sick days that the physician letter still comes back in. So, we still see this as an early step. But what I want to see is legislation like that, but even stronger across the country. And in the meantime, we're trying to talk directly to employers to say, you know, there are actually big downsides to a signal policy. And instead, let's just work within our human resource setting to find better ways that are better for the employee, the employer, and certainly for the health care system.

NK: Dr. Reimer, thank you.

JR: Well, thank you so much for talking about this.

CH: Dr. Joss Reimer is the president of the Canadian Medical Association. She's in Winnipeg.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

FOA: Dwayne Wade Statue

CH: It's important to face your problems, even when your problems are your face. Yesterday saw the unveiling of a larger than life sculpture of NBA great Dwayne Wade outside the Miami Heat stadium. The legend himself was there to soak in the moment, and when he first laid eyes upon his bronze likeness, an emotional Mr. Wade reportedly said, Who is that guy? Because as the Internet quickly pointed out, the Dwayne Wade statue looks less like Dwayne Wade and more like Kelsey Grammer from Frazier yelling or Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus in The Matrix, if Morpheus yawned or some combination of the two. Mr. Wade is not unhappy, though he described it as, quote, "one of the best statues that's been created", unquote. And as distorted replicas of beloved icons go, at least it isn't terrifying. Unlike a statue of Lucille Ball on display in Celoron, New York several years back. It appeared to be an experiment in giving Ms. Ball the face of Steve Buscemi, earning it the nickname Scary Lucy, which fans of the comedy legend did not love. From our archives, here's former As It Happens host Carol Off speaking with Tom Benson, the chair of the National Comedy Centre, which had just made a deal with the town to acquire the statue and attempt to rehabilitate it.

SOUNDCLIP

CAROL OFF: Mr. Benson, why did you want this statue of Lucille Ball?

TOM BENSON: Well, it's the only one. I mean, what, what happened five years ago is that a private citizen, a fan of Lucille Ball hired this sculptor to create this statue. Gave the statue to the village of Celoron, which is where Lucy was born and lived. And for five years, this statue kind of hung out there and we didn't pay any attention to it. There was no big deal with it. So, all of a sudden, over the last month or so, it became this controversial and somewhat disrespectful representation of what, you know, Lucille Ball really was.

CO: Well, but I guess people in Celoron who, and people who visit say that, well, it's freaky looking, isn't it? I mean, it's not like it's disrespectful to Lucille Ball, but that the statue itself, they think is disrespectful to her. It's a weird looking piece. What do you make of it? What does it look like to you?

TB: Well, you know, it's not a great likeness of Lucille Ball I'll say that. But what it became over the last month or so, I think it was disrespectful in that it became something that people were mocking, you know, in a way that was not consistent with what we're all about, certainly. And our patron saint, Lucille Ball, you know, we didn't like the way she was being handled in that whole process.

CO: But even the artist who's who made it said that he got it wrong, that it's just nightmare inducing. Even the artist said that he didn't think that he did a good job. So, are you going to change the statue itself?

TB: No. The seller on board decided, before they decided to give, you know, work with us they said, look, we're keeping the statue as it is and we want to keep it local and we're not selling it to anybody. But the number one thing was, hey, look, we need to change the direction this whole thing is going and at least have a goal of making this a good thing. That goes back to being what it was supposed to be in the first place.

CO: Right. But what's the idea? I mean, just in a nutshell, how are you going to rebrand, this is called Scary Lucy. How do you make Scary Lucy, Funny Lucy?

TB: Well, it's called Scary Lucy by, you know, folks who have branded it Scary Lucy. We're not calling it Scary Lucy. I mean, that's not the official name of the statue is. It's just a bad likeness of Lucy Ricardo. But we're doing the best we can to try to turn this into something that is not, you know, negative, something that people can feel good about.

CH: From 2015, former host Carol Off speaking with Tom Benson, chair of the National Comedy Centre in Jamestown, New York.

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

Part 3: N.S. Election MAID, Georgia Election Results, Polar Bear Encounter, Silk Road Cities, Man-Made Blobs

N.S. Election MAID

CH: Tim Houston says he's calling a snap election so that Nova Scotians can have a say. And they're already saying. Yesterday the premier of Nova Scotia announced that people will go to the polls on November 26th. Then, as reporters scrummed him at his campaign kick-off, Jennifer Brady spoke up. Ms. Brady has a condition called lymphedema, which causes painful swelling in her legs. It's a side effect of having her lymph nodes removed during a radical hysterectomy to treat cervical cancer.

SOUNDCLIP

JENNIFER BRADY: Premier Houston. My name is Jennifer Brady. I am a Nova Scotian. I have a life threatening health condition that I have petitioned your government, including Minister Thompson, over and over again to get out of province care, which is not available here. When are you going to speak to me? You keep talking about speaking to Nova Scotians. I have emailed you. I have mailed you. My case is in a judicial review right now and you have ignored it every single time.

TIM HOUSTON: Certainly. Look I'm concerned... [interrupted]

JB: When are you going to fix health care for me?

TH: Yeah, we're... look, there's work to be done in health care, for sure. You know, I'm sorry to hear about your situation...

JB: There's genuinely work done in health care. You have an opportunity to help me and fix a life threatening health condition that I have. You've ignored it every single time. As has Minister Thompson. When are you going to speak to me!

TH: There's no ignoring it, there's people, there are professionals working on the case as well. Like I understand...

JB: My lawyer is working on the case. When are you or Minister Thompson going to speak to me?

TH: Well, we deal with the health care professionals. We take guidance from them. I'm a politician not a doctor.

JB: You keep speaking to Nova Scotians or talking about speaking. Nova Scotians. When you speaking to me?

[Cross talk] someone asks Jennifer to let the press ask questions

TH: Happy to speak to you in more detail. But obviously... [JB: It doesn't matter.] I'm happy to speak to you. But obviously, we take our guidance from the health care professionals. I'm not a doctor. I listen to, I listen to...

JB: The doctors have told you I need this surgery!

TH: I'm not aware of that. I mean, there's a reason that there are some...

JB: You're not aware of a judicial review against your minister of health right now?

TH: I'm aware that it's before the courts. And I'm not aware that you're saying that...

JB: Why did it need to get before the courts if you are so keen on speaking to Nova Scotians.

TH: I'm happy to talk to you in more detail. But, you know, we listen to the health care professionals. I'm sorry. We have to take advice from the health care professionals.

JB: My health care professionals. Have told you I need the surgery.

TH: Yeah, well, I...

[can we finish the scrum first and then we can talk]

JB: And then he's going to speak to me?

TH: Yes, but we're going to listen to the doctors.

JB: I'll wait right there. If you're going to come, speak to me when the scrum is done, I'll wait for you then.

TH: I'll speak to you, but we listen to the doctors. I have to listen to the doctors.

JB: The doctors have told you I need the surgery.

CH: That was Jennifer Brady speaking to Nova Scotia Premier Tim Houston yesterday. As you heard, Ms. Brady has been fighting to get out of province care to help with her symptoms because that care is not available in Nova Scotia. The health department has denied her request. A review is currently before the province's Supreme Court. She says her condition has become so unbearable that in June she applied for medical assistance in dying. This morning, Jennifer Brady told our colleagues that she had received a call from Premier Houston.

SOUNDCLIP

JB: I mean, I definitely appreciated that he came and spoke to me after the media scrum yesterday, and I definitely appreciated that he called me this morning. Despite that, I find it really surprising that he seems to know nothing about the issue. You know, I've written him multiple emails. I've written him multiple emails. I've sent him multiple letters. My mother has emailed him and written to him several times. Friends and colleagues across Canada have written to him and the Minister of Health several times. I've never received a response to any of those communications, and that's been over the course of 4 or 5 years. In addition, you know, he was questioned in the legislature. He's been questioned by the media and still seems to know nothing about the situation. To your question I'm satisfied that he seems now to be paying attention to the issue, but it has taken me so much time, effort to fight for that. And, you know, it's utterly exhausting. It's absolutely exhausting. It's feels like a full time job at times trying to get their attention.

CH: That was Jennifer Brady speaking with CBC, Nova Scotia reporter Luke Ettinger about getting a call from Premier Tim Houston.

[Music: Calm instrumental

Georgia Election Results

Guest: Antonio Lopez-Isturiz White

CH: During Georgia's election campaign, the streets of Tbilisi were largely clear of protest. But tonight, tens of thousands gathered outside the main parliament building to protest the results and alleged voting irregularities. Yesterday, the country's election commission announced that the ruling party, Georgian Dream, had won 54 per cent of the vote. But opposition leaders, as well as the country's president, are declaring the results illegitimate and are calling for new elections. Antonio Lopez-Isturiz White, is a Spanish MEP who led a delegation of European parliamentarians to observe the elections. He's in Madrid.

NK: Antonio, Georgia's president, who has aligned herself with the country's opposition, Salome Zourabichvili says this is "an election that has been stolen", unquote. How would you describe the outcome you've seen?

ANTONIO LOPEZ-ISTURIZ WHITE: As part of the OSCE observing mission to these elections, is not to make such declarations, but to what our people observe on the ground.

NK: And what did they see?

ALIW: We saw at... Well, The observations were signs of, you know, observers that did not belong to any register, you know, NGO or local observers. Many of the polling stations were full of these kind of people, some of them trying to influence the vote outside and inside the polling stations. If you are a regular voter, you will immediately run away from this atmosphere, no? Of cameras of, you know, everywhere. By the way, there were a lot of cameras also filming, you know, that no one knew if they belong to the electoral committee or to the ruling party, you know, pointing even at the polling stations. No. It was something that I have never seen before. I have to say, no. Also, one of our teams from the European Parliament was witness to this incident where observers were attacked after denouncing the stuffing of ballot boxes that originated the closing of a polling station. That out of chance, it seems that this polling station very close to the opposition parties. No.

NK: You've also highlighted concerns about the lead up to the election before a single vote was cast.

ALIW: First, I would like to speak about the ambience. Before no? Before what we, you know, also the long term observers told us. People who have been on the ground before, they talk to us and we have heard also testimonies that were given to us from experts, NGOs, you know, and there was reports about intimidation, violence before, hate speech, persecution, repression against the opposition, against the media also. We had the, we had the opportunity to listen to the prime minister telling us lively that, you know, the plans about banning the opposition after the elections. I can only think about what kind of atmosphere this could create for the elections and afterwards. Also, also the law on the transparency, you know, on foreign interference, you know, the change from the gender quota in the statutes, in the, you know, rules for the elections, you know, for candidacies and so on. But these are the kind of things, these are cumulative things, you know, experiences by all the teams, you know, led to this, to the conclusion which we are talking about, you know. The deep concern about the democratic backsliding in Georgia that we found before has been confirmed, you know, by the fact that we have, you know, been checking during these days there in Tbilisi. No, I mean the countryside.

NK: Georgian Dream Party MP [inaudible] spoke to BBC News. He's trying to downplay these incidents that have been reported, these incidents that you've seen. Here's a little bit of what he had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

GEORGIAN DREAM PARTY MP: There are in total only 16 or 17 violations and there were three thousand one hundred and eleven precincts. So, if you take a closer look, 17 violations in three thousand one hundred and eleven precincts, less than 01 per cent. So, these violations, even if they were violations, because this has not been confirmed yet, they do not have any impact on the overall results of the elections.

NK: Does that math add up to you, Antonio?

ALIW: No, no. Or we were very, you know, lucky to see, you know, we're the only ones that we have, you know, all the observers from the different branches of the OSCE, we were around 350 observers and they all reported no problems. Okay. I don't have now, I don't have with me the exact data, but, you know, this 15 or 17, I find it absolutely ridiculous and absolutely false.

NK: Opposition parties say there need to be new elections, that they need to be conducted by an international election administration. What next steps are you calling for? What can realistically happen?

ALIW: That's something I cannot say. I cannot say because this is up to the people in Georgia. And, you know, I'm not in a position right now to tell if there has to be a new elections or not. This has to be the choice. You know, their own choice. What, what I would love. Who here is from the next government, whatever government it is. From Georgia, representing the people of Georgia, turning down the laws that were so damaging and froze the process of integration of Georgia into the European Union, turn all that upside down and return to the past. That would be my aspiration, my so-called dream, because in contact with many people in the streets of Georgia these days, I can sense that there is a majority of people in Georgia that they are aspiring, you know, to this European, you know, future. Of course, this has to be democratically decided by the people in Georgia. Okay. That my dream would be that the next government gives this steps so that also we can help from outside and to regain this path.

NK: Georgian Dream's, dream seems to be different, though.

ALIW: Yeah, but okay. I mean, I can never lose my hope. I'm telling you that I've said what would be my desire? Seeing what I have seen. No. But I don't know. Yes. Let's remain skeptical about the possibility. If the government, next government is from Georgia Dream, none of this will happen. But okay. I mean, I'm just talking about desire.

NK: Antonio, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

ALIW: Thank you very much.

CH: Antonio Lopez-Isturiz White, is a Spanish MEP who led a delegation to observe this weekend's parliamentary election in Georgia. We reached him in Madrid.

[Music: Upbeat piano instrumental]

Polar Bear Encounter

CH: In Sachs Harbour in the Northwest Territories, it's common to see polar bears, but the territorial government would really like it to be less common. Last week, the government warned residents of active polar bears in the community, particularly near the solid waste facility, and asked that people remove attractants like garbage, fuel and food from their properties. Nevertheless, the bears are still getting too close for comfort. Trevor Lucas and his partner were shocked to see one peering into his sister's living room. Here's Mr. Lucas talking to the CBC about what he saw.

SOUNDCLIP

TREVOR LUCAS: It's kind of frightening because the bears are getting more and more braver there. They're coming right from the middle of town during the evening, and I made some phone calls Tuesday morning [inaudible] in Inuvik, and nobody took me serious. I mean, I told the officers there that this is a serious matter. I mean, it's for the safety of the general public. And I, I got a hold of the, the local hamlet and the local agency. And like I said, nobody took me seriously. Last night, we had two, two really close encounters, which, which is unnecessary, not having an officer here yet and the ones that came last night they weren't scared of, nothing like the ATV's, the gunfire, nothing like that. So.

HILARY BIRD: Okay. So, so what, what happened last night?

TL: Last night, I was getting ready for bed and my, my girlfriend looked out her bedroom window and my, my sister-in-law lives right, right across us pretty much. And she's like, "There's a polar bear outside Chelsea's." And she, she tried to video chat her there. And then, I guess there was nobody home. I looked outside with binoculars and that polar bear was pretty much looking in her kitchen, her living room window. [HB: Wow.] So, I, so I jumped on my ATV, and I told my girlfriend, this is too, this is too dangerous. I'm going to go and shoot it. So, I drove up the road there and my next door neighbour came with a truck. And after we passed a bear, it was sitting there and it started to go after one of the dogs. And soon as it was in the clearing, I grabbed my rifle and I shot it and it ran a little ways and my brother came and he, he started shooting at it, too, and it, it finally fell about 60 yards from his house. So, pretty, pretty brave. Yeah.

CH: That was Trevor Lucas from Sachs Harbour, Northwest Territories, talking to Hilary Bird, host of The Trail Breaker.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Silk Road Cities

Guest: Michael Frachetti

CH: It's a challenge to look at a modern landscape and try to erase the houses and strip malls and picture what life was like more than a thousand years ago. And that's even more true in a place where there are no strip malls. Along the route of the famously mysterious Silk Road, the trade network that connected the east and west and spanned over 6400 km. But new research by archaeologists published in the journal Nature helps with that mental picture by shedding light on two former cities in the mountains of eastern Uzbekistan that date back to the Middle Ages. Michael Franchetti is an archaeologist at Washington University who co-led the excavation, which took a surprising turn after a tip from a local. We reached Mr. Frachetti in St. Louis, Missouri.

NK: Michael, you get this tip from a local official. What did they tell you?

MICHAEL FRACHETTI: So, we were excavating at the smaller of the two sites. This is the site of Tashbulak. And this was going back, all the way back to 2015. And a local forestry inspector who visited our excavations came and said, hey, you know, I've seen some of those ceramics in my garden, you know, as I dig up, you know. And so, we said, Really? So, we said, okay, we'll go check. Maybe he's got a small site, maybe there's a campsite or something in his backyard. Who knows?

NK: You weren't skeptical.

MF: Well, no, we weren't skeptical. I mean, we had already done a survey in the region in the previous years and had found a variety of different kinds of archaeological sites. Small, you know, small-scale ones. And in addition to the one where we were working. So, we didn't we didn't really, you know, trip anything particularly to find another site somewhere down, down slope. So, we travelled, you know, a couple of kilometres away from where we were working. And as we pulled into sort of Tugunbulak, which is this sort of basin plateau, it's fairly large of the high ridge line, very undulating, surface, undulating landscape. I mean, as we pulled in with the truck, you know, you could just begin to see these massive towers, huge, like eroded paramedical kind of mounds. And you're like, oh, goodness. And so, we got to his house and sure enough, he's living right on, you know, right in his backyard is one of the medieval citadels of the city.

NK: And more than a few ceramics, a full medieval citadel.

MF: Exactly. And so, we're like, oh gosh, this is something much bigger than we anticipated. But the truth of the matter is that, you know, that was a number of years ago, but we really couldn't, it was very hard to apprehend the extent and complexity of the city just by looking at it with the naked eye. It's really kind of tucked into the natural environment in the sense that, you know, mountains hide archaeology in a way that's pretty, pretty obscure.

NK: And it's, it's rare, as I've been reading, for these cities to be in high altitude areas. So, why do you think these, these communities set up?

MF: Yeah. I mean, the of the places that we know about, which there's a handful of other known, you know, settlements that are, you know, brick and mortar type settlements for stone architecture or mud brick architecture. So, they tend to be small. They tend to be castles or small retreats, you know. You know, even the famous ones in the world, even Machu Picchu, is, you know, Summer Palace. These aren't like huge industrial cities or anything like that. This city, as we now understand it from the light our mapping from the preliminary excavations that we've done, appears to be a much more, you know, full blown urban structure. You've got industrial production happening. We know of trade and interaction, you know, based on the materials we recovered. So, it does appear that this establishment was not only just physically bigger. I mean, it's a massive, you know, infrastructural development, but it's also bigger in terms of its like political and economic importance. It's one of those places that would have been a hub where people would have gone to it as a destination, which in, which in instance like steers the pathways and steers the grav--, the centre of gravity of these trade, trade routes, which, you know, we collectively and kind of colloquially call the Silk Roads. It steers them into the mountains in a way that I think we hadn't really fully appreciated prior to the documentation of these sites.

NK: And this is an iron rich or was at least an iron-rich area. [MF: Yeah.] How did that factor into things?

MF: So, I mean, I think that that's a major factor. I mean, the production I'm talking about is largely in the production of iron. I think there's other products, too. I mean, it's not just the iron, it's iron. It's also animals because we're in a pastoral zone, you know, areas where there's rich grassland and that kind of thing in the mountains. And don't forget, there's another key piece which people underestimate. And that is wind. You know, mountains are windy and wind is a really great tool when you're trying to stoke fires for high temperature smelting. So, there's a couple of details in the environment that really, I think, sparked and stimulated the growth of this city in a way that maybe is unlike anything else we've seen.

NK: And beyond changing sort of that mental and physical map that the people think about when they think about the Silk Road, as you were saying, it also, you've been suggesting, sort of debunks myths or simplistic ideas or images people might have or have had historically about the people living in these cities at the time.

MF: Yeah. I mean, you know, we can't say exactly yet. We have some really good ideas, so stay tuned. There are some things that I can talk about coming out of our recent excavations. But, you know, we can already understand the region is high mountain regions of Central Asia to have been occupied by communities that are associated with a different political order. These are nomadic confederacies or nomadic communities that then get kind of integrated in interesting and novel ways with lowland political forces. So, you know, up until now, we haven't seen major cities kind of built by those communities.

NK: We talked about the tip that came in. You mentioned the LiDAR technology that helped you, you know, uncover. What? [MF: Yeah.] What is there? Was that the game changer? I mean, because it's surprising [MF: Yeah, I mean...] perhaps, to people that, that they hadn't explored this.

MF: Yeah. I mean, you wouldn't. And to an untrained eye, even to a trained eye, seeing the archaeology without the LiDAR is, you know, seeing the landscape. You kind of have to squint to see, you know, and imagine you can see what you're seeing. The LiDAR gives you this really crystal clear picture. It shows you the level of detail that the actual surface contains in a level that is actually almost not even visible to your own eyes. And that's really where we could begin to see the connectivity between the different sectors of the city. So, the main zone where the, you know, the really clear, crystal clear architectural walls are and that kind of thing. You know, that's the most visible part on the surface. But where that connects to other zones, the other towers, the other, the other mounds, the wall lines and then other zones of occupation, those were hard to see. So, without the LiDAR, we really couldn't even say. And we're giving it a number now we're saying, okay, this thing's 120 hectares or 125 hectares, whatever we say. But that number was, we couldn't actually give that number before we had the LiDAR because we couldn't really measure the lines. You know, we were just looking at it and looking off in the distance and saying, Well, maybe there you walk over there and you might find a ceramics or something like that. But we couldn't really circle it up, you know, and say, okay, this is the, this is where the city was situated. I think that now we can begin at least to test those, those numbers and say, right now, let's get into underground and see what's, what's there.

NK: Was there one item or one section of the Citadel that, that really took your breath away? Though, it sounds like it all did.

MF: It did. I mean, there's one, there's one section of, let's say one, one of the towers. There's one of these like mounded... There's five major mounds run along a kilometre and a half or thereabouts ridgeline. And one of them is so pronounced even, I think even an archaeologist would look at that and say, okay, there is an ancient structure underneath there. It's got very clear, kind of, you know, it looks like a palace, basically. And that one we're going to excavate this coming year. So, stay tuned.

NK: Michael, I appreciate your time and we'll speak with you again, I bet. Thank you.

MF: I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

CH: Michael Frachetti is an archaeologist at Washington University. We reached him in St. Louis, Missouri.

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Man-Made Blobs

CH: A gross mystery has been appearing on the beaches of Newfoundland, an unsettling substance that's washing or swimming up in the form of blobs of gluey, white-ish substance. Environment Canada and other agencies are on the case, but so far no one knows whether they want to crawl into our mouths and assume control of our bodies, or they're just inanimate blobs of non-sentient goo. Although there is a fresh hypothesis. Hilary Corlett is an associate professor and palaeontologist in the Earth Sciences Department at Memorial University. She took some samples from the blobs from the beach into her lab, and here's what she told the CBC about her analysis.

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HILARY CORLETT: When I was sampling them, one in particular, a fairly large one, about 10 centimetres in diameter. And when I turn it over, it had all these impressions of what looked like pebbles still stuck in the blob, and they were difficult to get out. You couldn't just shake the thing and the pebbles fell out. And then I found another sample, and that one had some pretty detailed impressions of brown algae. And I tried to pull them loose. And you couldn't. They were totally encased. To me I don't think that there's any way that you could have this perfect impression of these pebbles and the algae if it wasn't something that was liquid at first. So, something potentially like a liquid polymer or something like that. So, I've been reading about different things like latex, and I gather that when a liquid latex becomes fully formed, it actually is impossible to change the shape again. You have to heat it to get it to go back to a liquid. I don't know if that's what it is, but I think it had to have been a liquid to perfectly form around these pebbles.

TODD O'BRIEN: So, let's say it's a liquid at air temperature, and somehow it gets into the ocean and cools. Do you think that would be enough to change it from a liquid to a, you know, a solid?

HC: Yeah, I think given it's the Atlantic Ocean and it's pretty chilly. Being at ambient temperature in a holding storage container and then falling into the ocean, I would imagine that, that temperature difference could be something that caused it to change.

TO: Now, when I was chatting with you earlier, you said something really intriguing and you thought maybe it smelled sort of a latex and then you touched it by mistake.

HC: Yeah. So, when I was getting one out of the bag, it touched my arm by mistake. And I have a latex allergy, and I get really itchy when I touch something that's latex. And I started feeling, like my arm started to feel itchy. And that smell, when I opened the bag, it just hit me. It just smelled like something that I smelled before. It definitely smelled sort of plasticky, sort of, you know, definitely like a man-made product. But I don't know. I have quite a strong reaction to the smell of latex because I'm allergic to it and nothing extreme happens to me. But I do get really itchy. And that's what happened today.

CH: That was Hilary Corlett speaking to CBC host Todd O'Brien. You heard her right, man-made, she claims. Ms. Corlett says she doesn't have the capacity for more research in her own lab but is hoping to get some help and do more testing.

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CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

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The AIH Transcript For October 28, 2024

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