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The AIH Transcript for October 25, 2024

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Precious few. Marc Miller is taking some heat for reducing Canada's immigration numbers, but the minister tells us despite the deep cuts, his government still sees newcomers as a major part of this country's future.

CH: The big picture in many smaller ones. When the bombs started falling, Palestinian photojournalist Samar Abu Elouf started documenting the war and its impact in Gaza. She describes the toll that has taken and her fears about what else could still be taken.

NK: Case Study. There is a renewed push to resentence the Menendez brothers, but the brother of one of their victims says the case is closed and it should stay that way.

CH: Sorry, states. U.S. President Joe Biden formally apologizes for the boarding schools that thousands of Indigenous children across America were forced to attend for over a century.

NK: Vicious circle. A team of Belgian runners set a record in a punishing race where participants run a 6.7km loop every hour, over and over, around and around until they just can't anymore.

CH: And you can't spell 'on air' without AI, unfortunately. The program directors at a Polish radio station are now programming actual programs. The three new hosts are computer generated. As It Happens, the Friday edition. Radio that promises to tell the whole truth and nothing bot.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Immigration: Marc Miller, Menendez Brothers Trial, Backyard Ultra Runner, Poland AI Broadcaster

Immigration: Marc Miller

Guest: Marc Miller

CH: Justin Trudeau's immigration cuts have provoked a lot of cutting remarks. Yesterday the Prime Minister announced that his government would accept fewer temporary and permanent residents over the next few years. That's a reversal of the near-record pace of immigration that followed the pandemic shutdown, a surge the PM said was necessary to ease housing and other pressures. But migrant rights groups say the cuts unfairly target vulnerable people, while business groups are asking where they'll find workers. Marc Miller is Canada's minister of immigration. He joined us in our Toronto studio.

NK: Minister, did you expect this kind of reaction, this kind of blowback to this announcement?

MARC MILLER: Quite frankly, I have heard largely positive reactions to this from Canadian, ordinary Canadians, economists. People I thought knew something was going to happen and they expected something reasonable from the federal government. So, I've seen a lot of positive reaction, not without controversy. And people have views on what migration should look like in Canada, and I do profoundly respect this point of view. I've spent the last year talking to people after we froze the levels. So, I think this is a plan that works for Canadians and they expect a responsible government to act in this context. And it provides a pathway for a controlled migration and brings us to, back to about the plan that was in and around 2020 with many modifications when it comes to giving Canadians a sense of what population growth looks like.

NK: I hear what you're saying about people who have been supportive about this and they, responding to what some have been saying to you. But there are others who are deeply unsettled and concerned and angry about it as well. We spoke with Syed Hussan of the Migrant Rights Network, and here's a bit of what he told us.

SOUNDCLIP

SYED HUSSAN: I'm incredibly upset. You know, a million plus people are about to be torn out of this country simply so that Prime Minister Trudeau can rise up in the polls. This is not about housing policy. It's not about immigration policy. It's not about a rational conversation. It is simply about changing the channel. And to out conservative the conservatives who've been calling for even more cuts.

NK: How do you respond to that, Minister?

MM: I profoundly respect points of views like that that are expressed to me and I have to reflect on them. I do also profoundly disagree with that characterization. We've spent a year working on this plan, listening to Canadians, speaking to economists, economic actors, migrants network, other advocates for people in Canada that perhaps need to be treated in a better way. We know that flow into Canada of the levels that we've had at times, whether it's in the temporary residence base or permanent residence, can lend itself to excesses and abuse, as well as the Canadian consensus that we've built on this carefully. And we have to continue to build that and be very careful in the measures that we take. This isn't about politics or trying to get re-elected. It's about the responsible role of government and having a managed migration plan. The Conservatives had radically different position on immigration last time they had the honour of being in power. We still have a very positive view of immigration. I think we have to move to protect that and that's what we did today or yesterday with the Levels plan, which is a reasonable pathway forward for controlled migration in Canada.

NK: He went further even to say, quote, This is nothing but racist scapegoating, saying this falls in line with what we're seeing abroad" in the United States, in the UK. I know yesterday and other times you've said, you know, this isn't about blaming immigrants for anything that's wrong in the country. But what Mr. Hussan is saying is that that's what you're doing. By linking immigration to housing shortages, that you're blaming immigrants for this. So, what are you going to do to make sure, Minister, you and the government so that things don't get to the level if you don't think they're already there, that we're seeing in the United States and in the UK, because there are people who will draw out that exact conclusion from what you've said here.

MM: To characterize this as racism is absolutely wrong. I understand the sentiment, but it's absolutely wrong. Even just simply on the numbers that we're looking at as a proportion of the population, we have a fundamental duty in Canada to protect the immigration consensus that we fight so hard to build. It's not unanimity. There are people that don't like immigrants in this country. I think we have to have conversations and attempt to have reasonable conversations with those people. But we see when that goes wrong or when the consensus is even more broken. In countries that are similarly situated, as that's one, the country of my children, Sweden has had challenges. That's something that I certainly reflect on profoundly and we continue to have positive attitudes. Latest Environics poll does say that Canadians have concerns about the flow, but we can't sit in there and call them immediately racists. Understand that they're still very positive views of immigration. But if we don't contribute as a federal government and as the, every act in society, the benefits from immigration to build that consensus. And I would put forward perhaps that we have gotten perhaps complacent and lazy about saying how important immigration is to Canada. And that's something that does concern me. I worry about the generational challenges that we face as a country with natural, de-population, making sure that we replenish the workforce and need to get, and the need to get it younger. As we continue to have to finance the social services of the elderly with worker to retiree ratios that continue to diminish from 7 to 1. When I was a child, I was born in 1973 to what it is now, which is closer to 3 to 1. We have to be careful in that. And open borders, unlimited flow is absolutely not the solution. And sometimes it does contribute to the sense that this is not working. Even among newcomer populations, this isn't about the quote unquote "old stock" that Stephen Harper used to talk about versus newcomers. This is about building a consensus in society and is carefully built, and I want to contribute to that.

NK: There are economists who are concerned. One, Rebekah Young from Scotiabank said, you know, last year what was done was to hot what you announced today, if executed is too cold, it will flatline growth. There are serious worries from economists. What do you say to them?

MM: Well, you're quoting one economist. I did speak to the vast majority of banks. You will see a range of views on that and views that I do respect. But the sweet spot is somewhere between 350 and 450. We are right in the middle of that and you will find outliers that have different views and different opinions as to what the significance of immigration is to the economy. We need to listen to them, but we also have to realize the fact that we're dealing with human beings. And there are, for example, the migrant worker societies, those that represent migrant workers, people that represent humanitarian organizations, people that represent family reunification organizations and public policy, such as making sure that our francophone communities outside Quebec stay vital with immigration. And those are things that fall outside the pure economic calculation. Those are the things that I have to balance with. And with limited numbers comes difficult decisions that any responsible government is asked to make.

NK: And the fact that for many people, their Canadian dream might end.

MM: Absolutely. The reality is it is difficult. It is expensive to live in Canada. We have challenges. The country. We are the best country in the world. If I look solely at the numbers in my department, there is a historic need or a desire to come to Canada. Just the pure volume of applications visa, to visitors, temporary residence, permanent residence. That's something, the flow that we have to compose with. So, the hope of Canada is still there. We have to make sure that it matches the reality and it can't be unlimited. And that's just the reality of the world we live in.

NK: Minister Miller, I appreciate your time. Many more questions for you, but glad you could be in studio today and I hope the conversation will continue. Thank you.

MM: Thank you. I hope Nil, to talk to you another time.

CH: Marc Miller is Canada's minister of immigration. He was in our Toronto studio.

[Music: Chill instrumental]

Menendez Brothers Trial

Guest: Kathleen ‘Kathy’ Cady

CH: They admitted to killing their parents. And now Erik and Lyle Menendez are the closest they've been to freedom since they were first convicted almost 30 years ago. Today, Los Angeles District Attorney George Gascon filed a formal recommendation for the resentencing of the brothers who are currently serving life in prison with no possibility of parole. The DA points to the brothers claims that they were sexually abused by their father and the severity of their sentence as reasons for his review. And the prospect of a new sentence is supported by many members of the Menendez family. But 90 year old Milton Anderson, the brother of murder victim Kitty Menendez, has been vocal in his opposition to the DA's move. His attorney, Kathy Cady, has filed an amicus brief with the court opposing the resentencing. We reached Ms. Cady in San Francisco.

NK: Kathy, a number of members of the Menendez family support the DA's decision, and they were at the DA's news conference recently. Your client's, sister Joan Vandermolen, was among them. I want to play for you and our listeners a little bit of what she said.

SOUNDCLIP

JOAN VANDERMOLEN: Lyle and Erik have already paid a heavy price. They have grown. They have changed, and they have become better men despite everything that they've been through. It's time to give them the opportunity to live the rest of their lives free from the shadow of their past.

NK: How do you respond to what your client's sister was saying there?

KATHY CADY: Well, I certainly would never criticize any member of the family for any way that they feel. So, she certainly has every right to feel the way that she does. But my client, Milton Anderson, who is also Kitty's brother, he feels quite differently. And that is based on the evidence in the case. And as you may recall, it was a really horrific, gruesome murder where Lyle and Erik, who were 18 and 21, when they learned that their dad was going to cut them out of the well, they decided apparently to murder them because they wanted to make sure that they could inherit millions of dollars. So, they purchased shotguns under someone else's name and then entered the den while their parents were eating dinner and watching TV and shotguned them. Kitty, unfortunately, wasn't killed right away. She left for a little bit, giving them enough time to reload and come back in and then murder her. So, I understand that there had been some testimony at the trial that one of the sons had been molested and certainly if that occurred that would be horrific. It's always horrific any time a child is molested. But Milton Anderson firmly believes that, that actually did not occur and that, that was made up by their attorney. And there was testimony at the trial that another friend had been asked to come in and lie for them and say that she had been raped by the father. So, we know that the brothers certainly were not above trying to get people to come in and lie for them.

NK: One of the things District Attorney Gascon pointed to in his news conference and to explain part of his decision making is a newly discovered letter from Erik Menendez to a cousin in 1988. It reads in part, quote, "I've been trying to avoid dad. It's still happening, but it's worse for me now. I never know when it's going to happen. And it's driving me crazy. Every night I say up thinking he might come in", unquote. You've suggested there may be reason to doubt the credibility of this letter. Why is that? What are your concerns?

KC: Well, again, if that is what was going on, that would be horrible and tragic. But the fact of the matter is that given that they did try to bring in witnesses to lie for them at the trial, it does give one pause and wonder if that's what they're doing right now. And the letter was written to a cousin who has since died. And it could well be that Eric did write that letter. But what's not clear is when the letter was written and I don't know whether or not the district attorney's office would have made an attempt to try to find the original letter or to try to get an envelope in which it was apparently sent, or if they've done any kind of a handwriting analysis to determine whether or not that is, in fact, the brother's handwriting. So, if, in fact, they are perpetuating this fraud, that they were molested, which is what Mr. Anderson believes, then they certainly wouldn't be above trying to create evidence after the fact to, again, try to show that that was true.

NK: The DA's office also looked at allegations from a former member of the boy band Menudo, who recently came forward with a claim he was raped by Lyle and Erik's father when he was a teenager in the 1980s. How much of an impact do you think that should have on the DA's decision making here? Because it clearly did.

KC: Well, again, if that happened, that would be horrible and tragic. But the problem with the DA's decision making is that he announced at the press conference yesterday that despite the fact that the case has been pending in his office for 17 months, he apparently only made the decision about what he would do one hour before. And that's not the way that an elected official whose job it is to seek justice and do the right thing should be making decisions in a highly publicized case regarding very, very serious charges. And so, the concern is that just 11 days before an election where he's trailing by 30 points and looks poised to lose, it would appear so. He used yesterday really just as a media opportunity. He has not been able to raise money...

NK: Do you think this could really, do you really think this could help him get re-elected, Kathy, given that he's, according to polls, trailing by as much as 30 points?

KC: Well, I think it would be highly unlikely. I certainly hope for the citizens of Los Angeles County that it's highly unlikely. But I think he's doing whatever he can to grab whatever chances he thinks he might have to still win the election. And, you know, holding a press conference on a highly publicized case.

NK: In terms of the legalities, the D.A. also says that the severity of the sentence, that it would have been much different if they were sentenced today, It would not have been as severe. So how do you respond to those legal arguments?

KC: Well, the sentence that they received was a legal sentence, and it is still now a legal sentence. Now, in Gascon's, Los Angeles, unfortunately, because he imposed so many policies that essentially take away various sentences that prosecutors can ask for. That may not have been as usual over the last couple of years, but in other counties, it most certainly is. If they are actually rehabilitated, then that would be one thing. But if what they're doing is continuing to perpetuate a false narrative that would clearly show they have not rehabilitated.

NK: Kathy, I appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

KC: Absolutely. Thank you.

CH: Kathy Cady is the attorney for Marvin [Milton] Anderson, the brother of the late Kitty Menendez. We reached her in Los Angeles.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

Backyard Ultra Runner

Guest: Merijn Geerts

CH: Merijn Geerts recently ran for four days in a row. Now, any jogging heads who are out there, is that a term? Jogging heads? Hmmm, just 'jogheads'. Yeah, that sounds. That sounds really good. Any jogheads who were out there every morning at the crack of dawn, might not find four consecutive days of running. Very impressive at first. But Mr. Geerts and his team-mates were competing in the Backyard Ultra World Team Championship, a race where participants must run a 6.7km loop every hour for hours and hours and hours until there's only one left standing. But in this case, there were three. Three courageous jogheads. Merijn Geerts is on the Belgian team. He and his team-mates Ivo Steyaert and Frank Gielen just set a new Backyard Ultra record. We reached Mr. Geerts in Leuven, Belgium.

NK: Merijn, did you sleep well last night? Have you had a chance to rest?

MERIJN GEERTS: Well, I did sleep well, but not as long me as I wanted. But that's often the case.

NK: How are your legs feeling?

MG: Well, if I move around a little bit, they're fine. But if I sit still for an hour, it's hard to get up again.

NK: Oh, why do you do this to yourself, Merijn?

MG: I'm not moving around much now. Why? [NK: Yeah]. Well, it must be because I like it. Because I wouldn't have done it so often otherwise.

NK: Let's give our listeners a few more details about this ultramarathon, because, I mean, ultramarathons are already ultra, but this is atypical. So, 63 teams, 15 runners each. You're not all running in the same country. Where was your course?

MG: Yeah, it's in a small village called [inaudible], but you won't know it. That's in Belgium, so.

NK: We know it now. You put it on the map with your, with your ultramarathon. So, you have to run every hour of each day with no brakes. Right. So. So when are people sleeping? How do you get through?

MG: Well, you have no brakes unless you just run a little bit faster than 6.7km/h. And then you have whatever time is left until the start of the next hour. So, it's like 10 minutes, 15 minutes, sometimes five minutes. And then you, you can have a nap, you eat, you drink, you go to the bathroom whenever you need, but just in that little amount of time.

NK: And now what are you eating and drinking in that little amount of time?

MG: As much normal foods as I can. So not, if you're, if you're, like, working for a week, you're doing a breakfast, lunch and dinner in a normal working week. So that's sort of what we're doing.

NK: You're not pulling up a bowl of spaghetti, though, as you're doing this, right? So, do you have special meals?

MG: No. Somebody makes me a bowl of spaghetti or whatever. Or like a pizza. They brought some hamburgers, at one stage. We make sure there's a kitchen and people can and we have the best team in the world, so they make us great food.

NK: Excellent.

MG: I take a gel sometimes and some sports food. But if you have to do that for some days on end, it just doesn't work.

NK: You also had a beverage around, lap 95. A beer, I heard.

MG: Yeah, you saw. But that was without alcohol. [NK: Okay, good]. It's just, it's just nice refreshing, alcohol free beer. I did have 1 or 2 with low with a little bit of alcohol. Not really heavy, but. Yeah, I did. Sometimes you need to, like, a little, little reward for yourself. Something like that.

NK: For sure. In the end, how much did the three of you have to run to break this record?

MG: Well, we did a 110 hours, which is 110 loops. So, yeah, that's just for the individual record, because actually the main goal in this event was a team event. So, the whole team did 11 hundred and 47 loops, which was, which is also a world record and was pretty amazing. We're really proud of the whole thing.

NK: Well, you should be. But there's this other little, little glitch or rule in the race. Quote, If no runner can complete one more loop than anyone else, there is no winner. End quote. So, you decided to finish together, right?

MG: Yeah. And the rules for an individual backyard, because usually a backyard is an individual race. But this is like, this one stands out because every two years we have the national, the team championship. And so, we felt like, okay, we were in a position to break the individual world record, but we didn't want to start, it's like we started it out as a team and then it's like you would play a game of soccer. And then when you beat the other team, you have to start competing against each other. So that's what we didn't like. We felt capable of breaking the individual record. [NK: Right]. But we didn't want to take it as far as then compete till the very end against each other.

NK: So technically, does that mean you're not the winners then?

MG: The Belgian team is winner, but individually, me or Frank or Ivo are not the winner of this race.

NK: And you're okay with that obviously?

MG: Ivo, did not finish. Yes, we are. We're actually very happy how it turned out.

NK: Teamwork, dream work, as they say. Right. Teamwork makes the dream work. It's Friday night. I know you're tired, but are you three going to celebrate together or is sleep the celebration?

MG: We're not living, Belgium is a small country but, we're not living next to each other, so.

NK: Well, I didn't mean that, but.

MG: No, but we did have a beer right after the race, and we will have this like some congress or something with some Ultra runners stock in a few weeks and we'll meet with the whole team. I'm sure we'll have a drink then.

NK: I'm sure. Congratulations. I appreciate your time.

MG: Thank you. No problem.

CH: That was record setting Belgian Ultra runner Merijn Geerts in Leuven.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Poland AI Broadcaster

CH: You may have heard the joke about how someone has a face for radio. I have a lot of times. But some new Polish radio hosts literally have faces for radio. I mean, without radio, they would not have faces. This week, a young white woman with a pleasant smile and statement glasses named Emila 'Emi' Nowak interviewed the great Polish poet Wisława Szymborska on OFF Radio Kraków. Except that Emi does not really have a pleasant smile or glasses. She's AI and Ms. Szymborska was very much a real person, but in this case is also AI because she died 12 years ago.

SOUNDCLIP

AI version of Wisława Szymborska speaking in Polish to 'Emi'.

CH: The AI Ms. Szymborska Says she doesn't want to talk about the Nobel Prize, she wants to talk about cats. And the AI host makes a laughing sound despite not understanding the concept of amusement. This is the new Radio Kraków. Weeks ago, the state broadcaster fired dozens of people and now it has hired three non-people. Emi, Alex Szulc, a blonde white guy in the photo with cheekbones you could cut kielbasa on, and Jakub 'Kuba' Zieliński, a brown haired white guy with cheekbones, you could cut kielbasa on. Here he is talking about a recent concert by Nick Cave and The Bad Seeds.

SOUNDCLIP

Jakub 'Kuba' Zieliński talking in Polish about a recent concert by Nick Cave and The Bad Seeds.

CH: Kuba says Mr. Cave's performance was full of melancholic, dark sounds that captivated us. But he was not captivated. And he is not us. He and his artificial colleagues are meant to appeal to Generation Z listeners, but they're not part of a generation. They are generated. Station officials say they're hoping this will spark a debate over AI, it has. But mostly people seem to think that these hip new pretend hosts are failing to keep it real.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

Part 2: Samar Abu Elouf, U.S. Boarding Schools Apology

Samar Abu Elouf

Guest: Samar Abu Elouf

CH: For over a decade, Samar Abu Elouf has defied gender roles and her family's expectations to forge a career as a photojournalist in Gaza, documenting life in the Palestinian territory. And she continued that work after the October 7th attacks, when Hamas killed 1200 people in Israel and took another 254 hostage. For months, Ms. Abu Elouf travelled through Gaza using her camera to show the world the impact of Israel's subsequent onslaught, through outlets like The New York Times. Her pictures captured the aftermath of bombings from the rubble of buildings to the crowded hallways of hospitals and even colleagues praying over the bodies of their own children. Her photos underscore the dangers facing civilians and journalists. Since the conflict began, more than 130 journalists have been killed. And in southern Lebanon this morning, an Israeli strike on a building housing reporters killed another three. Last December, Samar and her family were given the opportunity to escape Gaza. And this week, her work was recognized when Canadian journalists for Free Expression honoured her with a 2024 International Press Freedom Award. Samar Abu Elouf joined Nil in the As It Happens studio and spoke to her through an interpreter.

NK: Samar, I was at the event. I saw you receive the award. I saw everyone get emotional, get on their feet. You were emotional on stage as well. You were weeping. And I wonder what you were thinking in those moments as they gave you this award.

SAMAR ABU ELOUF: [Samar Abu Elouf speaking in her native language]

RANIA AL-AJRASH - INTERPRETER: I remembered that it's very hard for me to be out of my country, Gaza, and far from my family. I remember they're suffering back in Gaza. They're in hunger. They lives in the camps. It's very hard for me to bear this.

NK: You have sisters. You're your mother. You're a daughter. How many people are still there?

SAE: All my family. [Samar Abu Elouf continues talking]

RAA: More people from my family are back in Gaza, and they have never left. And it's very hard for me to think about them because we've been always surrounded by each other with we're always together.

NK: Before the war. What was it that drew you to photography in journalism?

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf answers the question]

RAA: It was my only way to raise my people in Gaza. The kids, The women. And how much are we suffering. At the beginning, it was very hard for me to thrive in my career because regarding our traditions as a woman, it's very hard to do this job.

NK: There were societal obstacles, like you said, expectations, but also practical obstacles. You had to make your own equipment, your own vest and helmet.

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf answering the question]

RAA: Everything was very hard for me because of the economy situation back in Gaza. And there's also no one can support me as a journalist. So, I had to make my own.

NK: How does you make that equipment? What did you use?

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf telling Nil about it]

RAA: The first thing made me creative about this idea to make the pot as a helmet and the plastic bag as a vest. In 2015, I was on the border and I saw a kid bombed in his head. As a journalist, I wanted to continue in my career, so I had to make my own equipment. It was my only way to send a message to the world that I need a helmet and vest to continue my career.

NK: And when did you get a real helmet and vest?

RAA: [Samar Abu Elouf starts talking interpreter overlaps] So a while after what happened on the border at 2015, she got a real helmet and the vest by Marie Colvin an organization who supports the journalists back home.

NK: You've been honoured for your work before and I want to start talking about your powerful photographs. One of them. It's in a refugee camp. It's a group of Palestinian children celebrating a birthday. Their faces are lit just by candlelight. What do you want people to feel when they look at that picture and know.

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf shares her answer]

RAA: So, this picture was on a [inaudible] refugee camp. So, it represents what these kids, they wish to live, not what they living. I want everyone around the world to see that it's their right to live and to enjoy the life as is any kid around the world.

NK: After October 7th and after the Israeli response to October 7th, which is still unfolding. In the early days of the war what were you doing? How were you covering what was happening?

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf starts talking, interpreter continues].

RAA: So as a journalist back in Gaza, we usually, what we do when we hear a bombing or there is an attack, first thing we do is to run. So, the first day when they started bombing Gaza, first thing I did, I took my camera and I took my stuff. And I knew since day one that I will never go back home. [Samar Abu Elouf speaking] So I used to spend days at the hospital and it was the only place for journalists to sleep. And since that day, I stayed away from my kids for 60 days. It was the only way to save them. I had to put them in separate houses.

NK: When you go to a scene to take photographs, it must be so frightening because you don't know who the victims are. And if they are your family.

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf speaking].

RAA: So, the hardest part in this war is the loss of connection. When something happened, I can just call them and check if the bombing is around them or are they safe or not. With this war I have to go look through the victims and hospitals and see if one of my family member might be there.

NK: Have you lost family members [inaudible].

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf answering.]

RAA: More than 13 people have passed away. I lost them during this war. Cousins, nieces.

NK: I'm sorry for your loss Samar. There have also been an increasing number of journalists killed. That number is going up even today. Lebanese officials say three journalists were killed after an Israeli airstrike in Lebanon. And, of course, the numbers in Gaza at last check, the Committee to Protect Journalists believe, I believe they wrote that more than 130 journalists have been killed just in Gaza. And that's just what they've been able to verify. How do you process those deaths, your colleagues, that number, more than 130?

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf gives her answer]

RAA: I always think about them. I always remember them because we have spent so much time together. And they were always supporting me. They were always besides me. I always think about how am I going to return to Gaza. And I will never find them again.

NK: Last year on Instagram you wrote "Every morning, every evening and every moment I ask myself, what photo does the world want to see in order to stop this war?', end quote, How do you answer that question now?

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf answering].

RAA: For the first time of my life, when I take a picture, I feel like this picture is not making any difference. And this makes me so down. Until now, I ask myself which picture would make a difference. But the thing is, the condition on the grounds in Gaza, it's so hard that not any picture can capture or shows what's going back in Gaza. [Samar Abu Elouf speaking again] The numbers of the kids that I had to photograph digging them out of the rubble. It was huge I was shaking while I was documenting this event.

NK: And one of your photographs shows, I believe one of your colleagues holding their dead child.

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf answering Nil]

RAA: Yes. It's my friend Mohamed Abdul. He's a journalist. He was doing his job. And he got a message that his kids died while the airstrike. And this is what makes us all, as a journalist think about our families, that we could find them at any time.

NK: You and your family through help from The New York Times now live outside of Gaza. You live in Doha. How did you make that decision to leave? Because I can imagine it was difficult.

RAA: [Samar Abu Elouf starts speaking] It was the hardest decision that I have ever made because I lived my whole life. I do this job with passion and love. But at the same time, it was very hard for me to be the reason why I lose my kids or any one of my family member. It was a huge struggle between staying and leaving. But my kids, they can't bear it anymore. They were psychologically tired every time when one of the journalists they pass away, my family get scared more. They were next.

NK: How are you continuing your work now?

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf shares her answer]

RAA: So, it's very hard for me to continue my work. There is no work, but what I'm doing in Doha is documenting people's stories who've been evacuated from Gaza and what happened with them.

NK: The world is listening to you now. What do you want people to know about your home, about Gaza?

SAE: [Samar Abu Elouf answering]

RAA: All I wanted to say is to stop the war. And I want people, my people in Gaza, to return to their homes. And I want the world to listen. Most of them, they have heard about us but never see us. Maybe they heard wrong stories, not true stories, but they have never came to see us. A lot of people in Gaza are so talented. We're very educated people. And before the war, I used to wish everyone to come and see people in Gaza and meet them. But the war changed everything. And this for journalists, the international journalists who entered Gaza and saw people, they know what I'm talking about.

NK: Samar, thank you. I wish you peace and I hope you get to go home to Gaza one day.

SAE: Thank you so much.

NK: Thank you both.

BOTH: No problem.

CH: That was Palestinian photojournalist Samar Abu Elouf with the help of interpreter Rania Al-Ajrash. This week, Ms. Abu Elouf was awarded a 2024 International Press Freedom Award from Canadian Journalists for Free Expression, whose co-president is former, As It Happens, host Carol Off.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

U.S. Boarding Schools Apology

Guest: Denise Lajimodiere

CH: Today, President Joe Biden was in Gila River Indian Community in Arizona to deliver an apology that was an extremely long time coming. He said he was sorry for the harms inflicted in so-called Indian boarding schools, federal institutions where thousands of indigenous children were sent for well over a century. Like residential schools in Canada they were intended to assimilate those children, many of whom endured terrible abuse. And their trauma continues to impact generations to this day. But today, one thing changed.

SOUNDCLIP

JOE BIDEN: After hundred and fifty years the United States government eventually stopped the program. But the federal government has never, never formally apologized for what happened, until today. I formally apologize [crowed clapping] as President of United States of America. For what we did. I formally apologize.

CH: Denise Lajimodiere is the child and grandchild of boarding school survivors and a founding member of the National Native American Boarding School Healing Coalition. We reached her in Salt Lake City this afternoon.

NK: Denise, were you thinking about all of your family members who had gone to these schools, your parents in particular, as you heard those words?

DENISE LAJIMODIERE: Yes, of course. So many of us thought of our parents and grandparents that didn't survive to hear this apology. So, yes, it's very emotional. I've been, I've been in tears all morning. And during his apology, I'm here in Utah interviewing boarding school survivors. So, I was able to be with them as they heard the apology. So, there was a lot of tears.

NK: He was you know, it's a different kind of execution of an apology, I think, than we often hear the president's energy there and the verve with which he said it. What did you make of how he delivered it?

DL: That's what I was waiting for, it made me nervous, to know what was he going to say. He was very forceful in his apology and that, we just cheered. It just struck us as a sincere apology.

NK: And you've been collecting stories from survivors long before today. We've spoken on our program with you about that in the past. Those who you were there with today. What did they tell you? You know, after the tears and the cheers.

DL: Well, yesterday, I visited with a Navajo survivor, an elder and he talked about how he was forced to chew on a soap bar because he got caught speaking Navajo. And he burst into tears. He just sobbed. So, you can see the trauma that our people are still experiencing.

NK: How old is that gentleman you were speaking to?

DL: He was in his 80s. So, I said, well, you know, tomorrow the president's going to apologize. How are you feeling about that? And he paused for a moment and he said, we'll see what he has to say. So, I will see him in about an hour, we are doing our closing ceremony here in Utah with boarding school survivors that we interviewed all week. So, I'll talk to him then. But I did talk to one survivor. He's Navajo again. He talked to The New York Times earlier and he broke down and started crying, this is before the interview. And he had to hand the phone back to me. He couldn't speak any longer. He's overcome with emotion telling his story to this reporter. I talked to him after and asked him if I could ask him how he felt and his whole demeanour was changed. He was upbeat, he was happy, he was smiling. And he said it's a leap toward healing. And that's when it's important to me is that this is one step or one leap, as he put it, towards healing for boarding school survivors. A lot more needs to be done. But this was, for him, a leap towards healing. And that just did my heart good to hear that.

NK: It's beautiful to hear in the studio from you as well, Denise. It sounds like this was a release for so many people. It's not the end of the journey, certainly, but a release.

DL: Yeah. One thing that happened just now is that I got a message from a boarding school survivor I interviewed in Oklahoma about six months ago. He was struggling after he heard that apology. So, we do not have a hotline like Canada does for people like him that needed someone to talk to right away about what this triggered in him, this apology. But I'm fortunate that here in Salt Lake City, we have four therapists and counsellors and psychologists here to work with boarding school survivors. So, I was able to hook him up immediately with a therapist so he can talk through whatever triggered him in this apology. I worry about the survivors throughout the United States to know their reaction, how they're going to feel. So, it's going to be a very emotional day for them. But I hope that they have support in their families or therapist. Someone they can talk to throughout the day.

NK: Is a hotline and that kind of support, are those things you would like to see come next?

DL: Absolutely. We've been asking for that for years, so it would certainly be one of the recommendations.

NK: And the Interior Secretary Deb Haaland, also talked about the Truth and Healing Commission on Indian Boarding Schools Policies Act, she wants to see that passed in Congress. This was a moving and historic day for her as well, of course. Do you feel that those kinds of things are actually going to be put in place now that it's going to go beyond this apology?

DL: Yeah. She released the Federal Indian Boarding School Investigative Report, Number two. And number one is an apology. The report contains eight recommendations. So, yeah, so there's still a lot of work to be done. Repatriating the remains of children, returning former boarding school sites in a land back, give it back to the tribes. Archiving or digitalizing boarding school records so, families have access to them. Yeah, but here it says, issuing a formal apology and acknowledgement. And I think some of my boarding school survivors, when I asked them what they felt about an apology, you know, throughout the years, I've asked them and some said, yes, it would be an acknowledgement of what the government did to us. And others said, well, I'll never get my childhood back, so it doesn't matter. I'm still hoping for, even for them, that this apology will also be for them that leap toward healing.

NK: President Biden also said that day, this apology is in part about making non-Indigenous Americans more aware of the history here. What do you hope listeners in the United States are taking away from this conversation and this apology?

DL: Well, so many people I've talked to, you know, I had a movie video call and they said we've just heard about boarding schools two weeks ago. So, in my book, you know, Stringing Roses, I have called it America's best kept secret. So, I'm hoping that it will no longer be a secret and that it'll be put into curriculum and into history books. Someone said, Well, you got written out of history books. I said, we were never in the history books. So hopefully this will just make America more aware of what has happened to us and what the legacy of trauma, historical trauma and intergenerational trauma.

NK: As you were thinking about your family members. And this apology, as you heard what Joe Biden said. What do you think they would say if they could have been there and heard those words?

DL: Yeah, my father, you know, I interviewed him when he was 77 years old in 1993. And I showed him a video about boarding schools in the white man's image. And when it was done, he just shook his head and he said, so that's what the damned hell they were doing to us. So, he didn't even know why he was sent to boarding school, why he had to hold a [inaudible], open his mouth for speaking his language. So, I don't know what their reaction would be. You know, just something that they had to do and they had to go through. I sure wish I could be sitting next to him when he heard the apology.

NK: Denise, thank you so much for your time and for coming back on the show. Thank you.

DL: Yes. And thank you for getting the word out.

CH: Denise Lajimodiere is a founding member of the National Native American Boarding School Healing Coalition. We reached her in Salt Lake City. And in that conversation, you heard a reference to Canada's residential schools crisis line. That number is 1-866-925-4419.

[Music: Drums instrumental]

Part 3: FOA: Sing Sing Film Festival, Cambodian Journalist Bail, Fisher Release, Mini Update: Astronauts Return, WWII Ship Oil Leak

FOA: Sing Sing Film Festival

CH: "Songs from the Hole" is a unique film described as a documentary visual album. It focuses on the music of James Jacobs, also known as JJ'88, a musician serving a double life sentence in a California prison. And it's now the winner of a fittingly unique award. The film took home the top prize for Excellence in Criminal Justice Storytelling at the first ever Sing Sing Film Festival this week, which took place inside the historic prison in upstate New York. The festival jury was made up entirely of incarcerated men, and earlier this fall, Nil spoke with one of the festival organizers, Lawrence Bartley, about what those jurors were bringing to the table.

SOUNDCLIP

LAWRENCE BARTLEY: It brings authenticity when they watch films about the criminal justice system or even the CSI shows or other Law and Order shows. I mean, I did it. I was incarcerated for some time and I watched those I'd say man this wouldn't happen; they would have just unveiled surprise evidence like that. That piece of evidence is not indicative of guilt or innocence or they want to read your rights and they say, you have the right to remain silent, You want a lawyer, etc., etc... You say, I want a lawyer and they wouldn't stop questioning you. That wouldn't happen at all. So, when watching films about the criminal justice system, they can pick it apart based upon their experience and see what was true or not, what was authentic or not. And that's what the biggest thing I think they bring to this.

NK: So, this ultimately is the first ever Sing Sing film festival. When you look ahead, you know, in the long run. What do you hope this is going to mean for people inside Sing, Sing, but also outside and the people whose films you're going to be judging?

LB: Yeah. You know, I hope that it means that it peaks the curiosity of some of the men. They go into filmmaking that's going to be generationally transformational for their children, for the children's children. And it could pay dividends. But on the inside, I hope that, you know, this is the start of film festivals that come over and over again with the criminal justice films who might make the regular circuit in the big, in a big film festivals, but they feel like this film is incomplete unless they get this stamp of approval from an incarcerated jury. And because this is about criminal justice and they can make sure that it is authentic. And that's an invaluable stamp of approval.

CH: From our archives, an excerpt from Nil's conversation with Lawrence Bartley, one of the organizers of the Sing Sing Film Festival.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Cambodian Journalist Bail

Guest: Danielle Keeton-Olsen

CH: This week, a pro-government Cambodian media outlet released a video in which a journalist asked for forgiveness. Wearing an orange uniform, Mech Dara apologized to Prime Minister Hun Manet and former Prime Minister Hun Sen for posting false information harmful to the Cambodian government. And that act of contrition got him out of jail. It's not clear what the controversial posts contained, but Mr. Dara has made a career out of uncovering uncomfortable truths in Cambodia. His reporting shed light on billion dollar scam operations, human trafficking and murky connections between organized crime and government officials. But at the start of October, he was charged and spent the next three weeks behind bars, facing charges of incitement over those social media posts. And yesterday, after that video came out, he was finally released on bail. Danielle Keeton-Olsen is a freelance investigative journalist who worked with Mr. Dara on exposing the country's scam industry. We reached her in Phnom Penh, Cambodia.

NK: Danielle, I know you were at a coffee shop nearby when Mech Dara was released on bail just yesterday. What was it like outside the detention centre?

DANIELLE KEETON-OLSEN: We had heard from the family after a long afternoon spent in the court that it was likely that he would be released the next day. So, a few of us who were former colleagues and good friends with him and as well as like a team of local journalists, had showed up to wait. And it was a, we were sitting there, we had arrived at 10:00 a.m. at the earliest possible time, but it wasn't until I believe about 12:30, I wasn't really checking my phone, honestly. Then we started getting word that he was ready to come out. They open the prison gates and a van drived him out. And immediately, as often happens in Cambodia, all the journalists swarmed him to ask. Everyone started asking him questions in khmer putting the phones and putting everything out there. For me personally, it was quite surreal because, you know, we've worked together for so long and been friends. And it's strange to see him on the opposite side of this. You know, in the days preceding he was in orange because he was in his prison uniform. And, you know, now he was the centre of a massive wave of journalists trying to ask his opinion about news involving him. So, it was quite, it was quite different for me. It was a hard to believe.

NK: Yeah. Have you spoken to him since? Do you have a sense of how he's feeling today?

DKO: Yes. So, I saw him a little bit earlier today and more yesterday. I think it's quite overwhelming because Cambodian prison is a pretty harsh conditions and the Kandal prison was relatively crowded. So, I think that he's readjusting to life on the outside and he still has a cough. He's still, you know, kind of struggling to process. But he was so happy to see us. And I think he's just happy to be out. You know.

NK: Our listeners heard about this apology video. What struck you when you first saw it?

DKO: I have to say it was quite an intense video to watch for me, even though it's one minute, it's shocking to see him in his prison uniform and, you know, kind of saying, I'm sorry, I'm sorry several different times in khmer and my understanding is there in the video so far, they bring up posts on social media on five separate days in September. Now, one, we know the case, you know, the case that had been flagged already by local officials and Prey Veng Province. But a lot of the rest of the posts, they weren't, they weren't described in any detail. There wasn't any sort of confirmation about what it means or like what was allegedly offensive to the government or, you know, classified as anti-government. So, it's a little bit concerning to me. I want to hear more in detail what that actually means.

NK: And, you know, again, this is, this would just be your assessment, we're not hearing from him about what he said and why he said it. But did it seem to you like something he would have said willingly?

DKO: Well, I would just look at the circumstances of what happened. So, on Wednesday, the day that that video came out, he had been sent to the courts around 2:00 p.m. I saw him going in. Myself and a few other colleagues had sat outside to see how long he would be in there and what was going to happen, and also to just wave at him, say hi in a way. So, he went in at 2:00 p.m. and he didn't come out until after 7:00 p.m. And that video came out. It was published on a government alliance news outlet. So, you know, it's hard for me to know fully what went on in the court without having been there, but it does not seem like it was. You know, like I um...

NK: It's hard to find the right words.

DKO: I guess I would say I would just look at the, I would look at the timeline. And I think that that tells as much as you can.

NK: It when he was surrounded by all of those other journalists asking him questions, he didn't say, at least yesterday, about whether he would continue to do this kind of work, this kind of investigative reporting. Do you think he's in a position to actually keep doing this work?

DKO: Well, at the moment, probably not. Given there are still charges pending against him. What will happen now that he given the apology and, you know, now that he's been released on bail, is yet to be seen. You know what I have told him and what I think that a lot of people are telling him is that we're going to support him whatever decision he makes. And it's a very heavy decision ahead of him.

NK: You do similar work. You've worked together, as you've said and as our listeners heard, doing this reporting on these centres and the scams around them there. How are you feeling about the potential impact on your journalism, on your work?

DKO: I mean, I think it's quite disturbing and I think it's quite frustrating to me at this moment. I think that it's a worrying sign for journalism in general here because there was already a culture of self-censorship and fear out of concerns that news would be flagged as problematic to the government and that there would be consequences. Because as you probably know, about a year and a half ago, the news outlet that we were both working at was shut down over a news outlet that was deemed fake news by the government. There's this is not the only instance of this happening. It more often targets khmer language media. And I think that that's a big concern, too, is that there is too much monitoring of khmer language and Cambodian local journalists. And I think that if we don't have Cambodians, like with the ability and the comfort to report what they're seeing and write without fear and without self-censorship, I think we're in a really scary place in Cambodia because how are we to know what's actually happening?

NK: Danielle, I appreciate your time. Please take care.

DKO: Thank you.

CH: Danielle Keeton-Olsen is a colleague and friend of Mech Dara. She was in Phnom Penh, Cambodia.

[Music: Electronic instrumental]

Fisher Release

CH: When animal care manager Tracy Reynolds tells people, they have fishers at the B.C. Wildlife Park, she says most of them think she's talking about a bird. It's actually a member of the weasel family, and Ms. Reynolds is hoping to raise awareness about that species because she considers them, quote, "extremely cool". This weekend, a pair of extremely cool young fishers are set to be released back into the wild. Here's Tracy Reynolds talking to the CBC.

SOUNDCLIP

TRACY REYNOLDS: So, they're related to things like otters, badgers, wolverines or even just like, martens things like that. They're a medium size. They are about the size of, like they're a big weasel, like they're the size of probably a housecat or a little bit larger. Especially the males. Females are closer to the size of a housecat, and they're found all over British Columbia. They're carnivores. And in British Columbia, they are declining.

JENIFER NORWELL: Yeah. I was going to ask what makes these fishers important in the ecosystem?

TR: Yeah. So, these fishers were actually part of a study that's being done by some research students at of Thompson Rivers University here in Kamloops, and they are looking at following the fishers and looking at denning habitats and things like that and trying to figure out a little bit more and getting an insight into why these fishers have, populations have been declining so drastically in the last 10, 20 years.

JN: Walk me back. How did the wildlife end up with these trio of Fisher?

TR: How do we end up with them here? Well, these fishers were very, very fortunate in that their mom was part of this telemetry study. They were, she had a transmitter. So, they were able to follow her movements and they actually got what they call a more mortality signal. So, it shows that the mom hasn't moved in over 24 hours and she had been predated upon by another carnivore. But these kits were only 10 weeks old and were still in the nest log. And so, they were able to, they knew where that was. So, they went up, they found the kits in the log and they were able to do a controlled fall of this tree log that they were in and get them to... And were able to bring them to us. So, we were able to then take over their care and raise them up to the age they are now. And they're ready for release here now. And they're going to release two of them and they're going to track them and see how they do that as well.

JN: Why two out of three?

TR: Two out of three for now to see how they do. So just to say it's an unknown how they're going to do. And we have two males and one female, so they're going to release one of the males and then the females in the hole back the other male to see how those two do. They're going to do a soft release. So that means they're going to set them up in the woods, in an open enclosure and let them get habituated to that area. It's going to be the same habitat that the mom was in. So, the same range. They'll be taking over that range and hopefully they'll get to move right back into the mom's range.

JN: Why was it important for the wildlife park to be involved with this?

TR: We are extremely excited to be a part of this, especially because fishers are declining in British Columbia. The more we can know about their care and the ability to rehabilitate them. The more the better. So, anything we can do to help fishers and even raise awareness of fishers, it goes a great deal, I think, to helping preserve the species.

CH: That was Tracy Reynolds, the animal care manager with the B.C. Wildlife Park in Kamloops, speaking with the CBC's Jenifer Norwell.

[Music: Violin instrumental]

Mini Update: Astronauts Return

CH: This morning, we were all overjoyed to see headlines celebrating the safe return of the astronauts who were stuck in space after their spacecraft was deemed too dangerous for a return flight. Finally, we all thought Butch and Suni's ordeal is over. As we've told you before, NASA's astronauts, Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams, left for an eight day mission on June 5th. Then technical problems left them stranded at the International Space Station. And the last we heard; they wouldn't be getting home until February. So, it was great news that they were back safe. Except they're not the formerly stuck astronauts who splashed down on the Gulf of Mexico this morning were not them. It seems there were other stuck astronauts on the list, three Americans and one Russian who'd been there since March and were due to return in August until they were stranded due to technical problems. So apparently all kinds of stock astronauts have been floating around the ISS, bumping into each other and trying not to cry so their tears wouldn't float into someone else's face. But if you're newly concerned about Butch and Suni, don't be. According to NASA, they aren't so much stuck as they are delayed. And at least while he's still in orbit, Mr. Wilmore seems to be sticking to that spin. Someone just forgot to tell the children who submitted a question for him during a live transmission from the space station yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

INTERVIEWER: All right. The first graders cut right to the most important question, which is, how did you get stuck up there?

BUTCH WILMORE: I think there are many definitions of stuck. I guess there are maybe a couple of those definitions that might apply to our situation. But Suni and I, neither one of us think of it in that light. We don't feel like we're stuck. We're just continuing on with the mission of NASA. It just so happens that we took a detour and now we're on this other pathway, still doing the things that is important to mankind, and to NASA and the goals of our nation. So, it's just a different path. So yeah, I guess you could say there's, in certain definitions we got stuck. But in many, many other the majority of, we're just on a different path.

INTERVIEWER: And are you getting overtime for this?

BUTCH WILMORE: You know, that's a good question. We might ask that question to our bosses about overtime. [chuckles]

CH: NASA's astronaut, Butch Wilmore, speaking with the City Cast Nashville podcast yesterday from the International Space Station, where he is not stuck.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

WWII Ship Oil Leak

Guest: Jeff Brady

CH: The Canadian Coast Guard is cleaning up at the site of a Second World War vessel shipwreck, again. Early on September 29th, 1946 the U.S. Army transport ship Brigadier General M.G. Zalinski hit a rock near British Columbia's Pitt Island. In less than an hour, it sank and eventually it was forgotten about 35m below the surface. Until about two decades ago when it was rediscovered. And not a moment too soon because the ship was leaking oil. And now another Canadian Coast Guard clean-up operation is underway. Jeff Brady is the superintendent of Marine environmental Hazard Response in the West for the Canadian Coast Guard. We reached him in Vancouver.

NK: Jeff, I know you've been to the site several times. Your colleagues are out there as we speak. How much oil is leaking out of this ship right now?

JEFF BRADY: Not that much. It's really coming up in thumb drop size. They call them tar balls that come to the surface. And there's a dedicated team of spill response staff that are picking them up with absorbent pads and really ensuring that we don't have any type of shoreline contamination or any damages to such a sensitive, beautiful area such as fisheries, marine mammals or wildlife.

NK: How often have these issues been reported over the past year, though?

JB: It's almost regular to reports, weekly reports that we get from our Coast Guard ships and Coast Guard helicopters and then vessels in transit. It's a basically, a marine highway that this incident occurred. And we're constantly reaching out to vessels in transit. And we have an open tasking for all of our ships and helicopters to report it. So, with so many eyes looking at it, we get lots of reports of just these little tar balls that come up every once in a while. But once they come to the surface, they spread out rapidly. And that's when you see that bright rainbow shining and it's quite something to be seen. So, it definitely catches people's eyes...

NK: And gives them cause for concern.

JB: Yeah, absolutely. The concerns are based off of such a sensitive, beautiful area and that's really why we're addressing this hazard. We're addressing the oil spill. We're addressing any type of potential future oil that could, oil spill that could happen. That's really why we have a team dedicated there with contractors that we've hired and of course, our spill response specialists. And we've really brought these specialists from across the country, including wildlife specialists, marine mammal specialists, technical specialists that have to do a salvage and wreck removal and oil removal. And of course, bringing in our First Nations partners from [inaudible] that we've been working with for, you know, decades to ensure we, you know, ensure appropriate response and ensure that their voice is at the table of joint decision making, understanding what their cultural values are and understand what their fisheries needs are. This is the breadbasket, the refrigerator for them.

NK: The government, as you know, has said the ship structure has deteriorated over time. So previously inaccessible fuel tanks have collapsed. They've given close to five million dollar contract to a company called Resolve Marine to help with this cleanup as well. So, what are you and your colleagues and that company doing together at that site?

JB: Yeah. Well, first, I think I'm happy that you're talking about it being such a historic wreck, because I certainly wouldn't want to give the impression that these are intact tanks that are sealed off. These are, these once were tanks and since then, the vessels flipped upside down. And each, all these walls are bulkheads and deckheads and hullting of all corroded through, it was actually a riveted hull construction. And those rivets are rusting away and there's holes everywhere. It's almost like a block of Swiss cheese with just oil coming out throughout the hull. So, we're trying to find out where those high spots of oil are. And then we're installing these valves. We have to drill into the hull that's upside down. We install valves and then we pump from those high spots and try to get as much oil as possible. And, of course, this oil is like cold molasses. It's really thick. You know, obviously it's aged over time and it's extremely vicious. So, we pump that up to the surface in the tanks and try to recover as much as possible from there. We leave the valves in place and we actually put these pollution domes over top of that, about 500 metre domes that try to capture that minor upwelling, you know, drip, drip over the course of a year that we've seen over the course year to see if we can catch any of those drips in the future so we can come back at a later date and try to pump out those pollution domes. But what we're seeing, we're not, there's not much oil left down there, which is just a great thing.

NK: Just a decade ago or so, there was another big cleanup at the site. It was a 50 million dollar cleanup at that time. A member of the Coast Guard told CBC News then that it was, quote, "one of the biggest things the agency had ever done". But as you know, the Coast Guard has had to return multiple times over the years. Here you are again along with this company cleaning up once again. Why is this proving so difficult? Why is there still a mess to clean up after all this time?

JB: Well, we have high expectations for how clean we want this coast. And it really shows the Canadian Coast Guard's dedication to wreck environment hazardous vessels. And this is not the only time we've done this. A couple of years ago for another shipwreck on the West Coast where we went out there and aggressively did a bulk removal and on the East Coast [inaudible]. I was there for months. Doing the same type of project. So, these happen and we address them in a preventative measure, and we're just happy to be able to have such great contractors, have such great relationships with the local nations and all the technical specialists on scene.

NK: What's going to be left at the bottom of the ocean after your efforts this time. Is there still going to be some oil? I mean, can you imagine a time where this job is actually done?

JB: Yeah, it's certainly going to be a historic wreck that we have no intention to remove the hull. I think we're always going to have some type of remnants of petroleum products coming from the wreck. And we're putting measures in place to minimize any type of damages that may occur from that, you know, drop here and there that we might see over the course of weeks and months and years. What I am confident is that the measures that we have in place are going to minimize that.

NK: Are there other historic shipwrecks in the area where you have, that you have concerns about?

JB: There's a vessel called the Coastal Trader and it's off of Victoria between the U.S. and Canadian waters off the [inaudible] and we're exercising that this month actually with the U.S. Coast Guard, with our First Nations partners and tribal partners in the South and of course, provincial and state officials. And we're going to run an exercise about what happens if this vessel, this historic wreck that is likely to have oil on board, if it leaks. You know, where is that oil going to go and what are we going to do about it and how are we going to come together and work our joint contingency plan between the United States and the Canadian Coast Guard. So, we are aggressively trying to find wrecks and aggressively trying to minimize any damages that might come from them.

NK: Jeff, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

JB: Thank you.

CH: Jeff Brady is with the Canadian Coast Guard. We reached him in Vancouver.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

CH: Now, finally, back to our top story this week. Yesterday, I came down pretty hard on the actor Andrew Garfield, who came down pretty hard on one of our national treasures, ketchup flavoured potato chips. And as a responsible journalist, I, of course, asked you to weigh in with your thoughts on the matter and your views on chip flavours more broadly. And I have to say, the results were exactly as weird as I'd hoped. James Rooney of Toronto wrote to say he doesn't find Mr. Garfield's opinion of ketchup chips totally offensive. He says, quote, "I view them as a way to obviate the whole ritual of dipping one's chips in ketchup, which actually can enhance most other flavours, though admittedly not all. (I'm looking at you sour cream and onion)", unquote. Mr. Rooney, I was not aware this was a ritual. I have never done it, and I probably never will. But let me ask you this. Have you ever dipped ketchup chips in ketchup during said ritual? Food for thought. We also received this troubling message.

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SPARKY STEVE: [Voicemail tone] Sparky Steve calling from Rossland, B.C. I just had to ask if anyone remembers a short period in the Maritimes in the '70s, maybe the '80s, probably '70s of fruit flavoured potato chips by Hostess chips. There was orange, grape and probably cherry. They didn't last long, but I just want to make sure this isn't some kind of weird flashback. Thanks. Love your show. Bye. Bye.

CH: I am sorry to say that you are not mistaken, Sparky. I also remember those chips here in Ontario. And if Andrew Garfield found ketchup chips off putting, he is lucky he wasn't in Canada when the grape ones showed up. I had some and I don't want to talk about them. Thanks to everyone who wrote in about this, though. And if you also remember fruit flavoured Hostess chips, please let us know. We'd love it when you write, but we love it even more when you give us a call or send us a voice note. Our number is (416) 205-5687. Or you can email us at aih@cbc.ca.

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CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

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The AIH Transcript For October 25, 2024

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