Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2024

The AIH Transcript for October 22, 2024

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: It's not us, it's you. On the eve of a pivotal caucus meeting dozens of Liberal MPs are ready to demand Justin Trudeau step aside. A veteran of past party spats shares his take on what's to come.

CH: A BRICS wall. Russia plays host to world leaders at the BRICS' summit. And one expert tells us Western nations shouldn't be too quick to dismiss the bloc.

NK: A kick in the teeth. More than 100 female soccer players, including the captain of Team Canada, signed an open letter calling out FIFA for its sponsorship deal with a Saudi company.

CH: Learning the hard way. A member of the Little Rock Nine remembers her friend Thelma Mothershed-Wair and the days of desegregation when they were greeted by racist mobs while attending high school.

NK: Classic rock. A Harvard scientist recounts what it might have been like moments after a gargantuan meteorite hit the Earth billions of years ago. Featuring such favourites as ocean boiling, an earth shatteringly large tsunami, but also a helpful boost to life on earth.

CH: Saved it at the end. And sounds like a good wingman. New research finds that one type of hornet can hold its booze better than any other creature on earth, and scientists see that as an un-wasted opportunity. As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that proves you can be sober and still have a major buzz.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Trudeau Future: Herle, Saudi Soccer Sponsorship, Mega Meteorite Study, Liquor-Holding Hornets

Trudeau Future: Herle

Guest: David Herle

CH: There was some scrappy talk outside Justin Trudeau's cabinet meeting today. The Prime Minister was set to meet with his ministers before what could be a dramatic gathering of the full Liberal caucus tomorrow. That's when a group of Liberal MPs is expected to confront their leader with a letter asking him to step aside for the good of the party. Immigration Minister Marc Miller is a longtime friend of Prime Minister Trudeau. Through a barrage of reporters’ questions. He offered this advice to the would be coup plotters.

SOUNDCLIP

MARC MILLER: I think they have to express themselves to his face, like I've said, and not do it sort of in hushed tones and... [cross talk]

REPORTER: How does he come back to lead a united caucus if that many?

MARC MILLER: Well, I think what you'll see is that the vast majority of caucus and cabinet, the entire cabinet's behind him.

REPORTER 2: [cross talk] Can you win re-election under his leadership, though, and continue all the work you've been doing for the last nine years?

MARC MILLER: Absolutely. It's up to Canadians to decide. We have to prove it to the Canadians. And any minute spent on this garbage is a minute that's not spent on Pierre Poilievre and what he wants to do to this country. And I think that's very dangerous.

CH: Immigration Minister Marc Miller. David Herle served as chief strategist for former Liberal Prime Minister Paul Martin and former Ontario Liberal Premier Kathleen Wynne. We reached him in Toronto.

NK: David, describe how you see the kind of challenge Justin Trudeau is set to face tomorrow.

DAVID HERLE: Well, I think it is a significant new stage in this process in which a number of the caucus members, a large number of the caucus members of a caucus that has traditionally been very, very compliant to him are now feeling serious enough that they want to openly, openly within the caucus room at least, call on him to resign. But I really think it's important for people to understand that there is no actual process here to remove Mr. Trudeau. When people say this is Mr. Trudeau's decision, they're not being polite or differential. The Liberal Party literally has no process by which to remove him, even if every Liberal in the country agreed on it. So, all of this is aspectablely persuasion. And people feel that they, I think a lot of these caucus members feel that they have tried to make their case more politely over the last year or two in a number of different ways haven't been heard. Things are getting pretty desperate and they feel the need to take desperate measures.

NK: It's his decision, as you say. But the headlines aren't great. The press isn't great. It gives an appearance of a lack of unity and a lack of support. So, what does he have to say and do, Justin Trudeau, tomorrow to quell that?

DH: Well, I don't first of all, know that there is anything that he can do to quell it, because it is primarily, I believe, driven by the reality that his government is headed toward quite a bad defeat. You know, whenever the election is held, I always caution to add, that would be true of any government that had been in office for 10 years would be likely to be defeated, almost certain to be defeated in that election. This government is probably more unpopular than most who found themselves in that circumstance. So, I don't think this is a revolt that is driven around a fundamental disagreement over policy direction, although I think there are some of those. But it's fundamentally we're going to lose badly if you run. And there's not much that can be said back to that, because that's what all the facts point to.

NK: That's similar to what we heard from Sean Casey on our program last week as well. If Justin Trudeau decides to continue to stare down his critics, how do you see that playing out?

DH: Well, if he stares him down implacably and does what he has been doing, which is to say, not only am I not leaving, we're not making any changes. We're not going to change our policy in any way. We're not going to scrap the consumer carbon tax. We're not going to bring in an advertising campaign in support of the party. We're going to do absolutely nothing. Then I think you'll see probably a combination of more agitation and a lot of quiet quitting. It's already the case that many people inside the government have given up on the government, whether it's at the caucus or staff levels, and started to think about what life is like after it. And so, I think that will happen even more if he stares them down implacably. There is another route for him, which is to say, I hear a lot of what you're saying and I think we need to make changes. We've appointed a new campaign director. You're going to very swiftly see changes in the way we're operating from a campaign side, including advertising imminently. And he could signal we're going to have to make some different policy things. And I'm going to have to acknowledge I've made some errors. If he gave them a game plan, in addition to some sense of what the next election was going to be about, which is another real sort of vacuum in this piece, is that he's insisting that he needs to run again, but he's not insisting on that for any particular reason. Like he doesn't have four things he wants to accomplish yet or one thing he wants to accomplish yet, or he doesn't have a new frontier. It's just about I'm the right person in this job. And in the face of so many Canadians saying that that's not true, it's not a very strong argument to make to his caucus.

NK: If we go back in time a little bit. Certainly, you were a key player in the rivalry, we can call it, between Paul Martin and Jean Chretien. What do you make of the fact that there, there doesn't seem to be someone inside the caucus who is ready to take Mr. Trudeau down to get this job? How this is playing out politely, as you and others put it.

DH: In all previous leadership challenge situations, there's been an obvious alternative, whether it was Mr. Chrétien to Mr. Turner or Mr. Martin to Mr. Chrétien, where most liberals thought that somebody else would do significantly better in an election campaign. That doesn't exist now, in part because Mr. Trudeau's government hasn't had ministers, with the exception of Ms. Freeland, rise to a level of public notice where they would have developed a following in the country and have a following, even among Liberals. So, it is a shot in the dark in that respect. And I think that that was working in Mr. Trudeau's favour for a long period of time in which people said, Well, he's not polling great, but who would do any better? But I think in the last year the polling has been so terrible that the risk assessment has shifted to is it really possible anybody else would do worse and maybe they would do better?

NK: Do you see a scenario where Trudeau stays in his job and turns this around and wins another time? What would he have to do?

DH: It's never been done before. It would require the complete disqualification of Mr. Poilievre as an alternative. So, it would require some combination of advertising developments, errors on Mr. Poilievre's part, or on his party's part, that would disqualify him from being the Prime Minister. That is literally the only situation in which Canadians in enough numbers would choose Mr. Trudeau again now I don't base that on malice toward Mr. Trudeau, although his favorability numbers are what they are. But it is simply the case that any government that gets re-elected after 10 years does so not because people want to give them more time, but because people don't want to give the alternative a chance. And that is certainly not the case now. Mr. Polio negatives are relatively low and the party is at [inaudible] historic highs and support levels. So, we don't see any evidence of that now. But it's also the case Mr. Poilievre's not terribly well known and there are possible changes in people's assessment of him, but it would have to be quite radical.

NK: David, I appreciate your time. Thanks for this.

DH: Hey, thanks for the conversation. I enjoyed it.

CH: David Herle was chief strategist for former Liberal Prime Minister Paul Martin and former Ontario Liberal Premier Kathleen Wynne. He's in Toronto.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

Settlement Saudi Soccer Sponsorship

Guest: Jessie Fleming

CH: A group of female soccer players are making their pitch to keep Saudi Arabia off the pitch this week. More than a hundred players signed an open letter to the president of FIFA calling on the organization to reconsider its sponsorship deal with Saudi Aramco. The letter highlights Saudi Arabia's human rights abuses and ties to oil, and the authors write that by partnering with the Saudi Arabian company, which is majority state owned, quote, FIFA might as well pour oil on the pitch and set it alight, unquote. Jessie Fleming is the current captain of Team Canada and one of the signatories of the letter. We reached her in Merida, Spain.

NK: Jessie, you and the other players in this letter don't just say this is a, quote, "stomach punch to the women's game". You also call it a "middle finger". How did you feel when you found out about the deal?

JESSIE FLEMING: Yeah, I mean, I think just similar frustration to how we felt in the past and I think disappointed that I think FIFA advertises certain values and then takes actions that say otherwise.

NK: Walk us through the specifics, you know, for our listeners who are just learning about this deal and your concerns in particular, what are the things that stand out to you about why you think this is such a bad decision and even harmful decision?

JF: Yeah, I mean, I think there's a number of reasons that can be kind of simplified down to Saudi Aramco's environmental practices as well as the human rights record that the Saudi, Saudi Arabia government has. Saudi Aramco's the world's largest oil and gas producer, and its 98 per cent, I think almost 99 per cent owned by the Saudi government. And I think in light of the current climate crisis and global fossil fuels being responsible for a massive chunk of global carbon emissions, yes, I think Saudi Aramco is clearly a bad actor in that landscape.

NK: There have been a number of deals over the last few years involving Saudi Arabia and different sports, different events, certainly different athletes. [JF: Yeah exactly]. So, what do those signal to you?

JF: Yeah, I mean, again, I think it just signals a mismatch of values. I think FIFA also has a human rights policy which it commits itself to respecting internationally recognized human rights. But I think this partnership contradicts its own values and puts its commitment to these those principles in doubt. Saudi Arabia has a pretty significant record of human rights violations, particularly with regards to gender inequality and freedom of expression for women. So, I think that's why it rings true so much for those of us in the women's game.

NK: In a statement to CBC News, FIFA says it, quote, values its partnership with Aramco and its many other commercial and rights partners, end quote. The association says sponsorship money is reinvested back into the game at all levels. And the deals like this are an investment in women's football to help grow the game. I'm sure you've heard that argument before. What do you say to that argument?

JF: Yeah, I mean, I think I acknowledge their point, but I don't agree with argument. To me and many other players, money's never worth human rights violations and harm to the planet that a company like Aramco causes. And I think FIFA has a responsibility to ensure that its sponsorship deals don't sell out on its values and what is right and the values that we as athletes want to see reflected in the sport.

NK: In a piece for the Atlantic Council think tank; Stephanie Howe, Cheryl Lee and Jaime Stansbury wrote that calling these kinds of investments sports washing can be counterproductive because there are Saudi policies now that allow women to use gyms and that girls can play sports in school now. So, they see that that kind of sports investment leads to wins for some Saudi women. What do you say to that part of the argument, Jessie? They're saying that this is opening doors.

JF: Yeah, I mean, of course, we want Saudi people and especially girls and women to be able to access and enjoy sports. There's no question about that from our end. But I think you can't also be covering up human rights violations. The women, the people of Saudi Arabia should be able to enjoy sport and given equal freedoms. It doesn't need to be an either or situation as it is right now.

NK: When you and your teammates and other athletes talk about your concerns about deals like this and what it signals to you, do you also talk about what would be a better kind of investment in your view? What would help?

JF: Yeah, I mean, I think it just, you know, needs to be companies and partnerships that reflect the values, that FIFA advertises. One of the main aims for the letter is to establish a sponsorship review committee with player representation to better assess future FIFA sponsorships and to ensure that they're in line with the sport's values.

NK: Others who, you know, who have spoken out, other criticism similar to this, you know, has gone ignored. Saudi Arabia appears to set to host the 2034 men's FIFA World Cup, as you likely know. So, what do you hope the letter will accomplish? What's a win here, realistically?

JF: I think in the short term, we're hoping to hear back from FIFA and to begin a discussion. I think the letter and fan polling make it clear how strong the feeling is behind this letter and we'll take each step as it can. I think, you know, for those of us who signed on to the letter, we're doing what we can from our side. And I think in the short term, hoping to begin a discussion.

NK: Was it a hard decision to sign on to it and be so public?

JF: No. I think for me, it was a very easy decision. I think these are two values that I feel quite strongly about, and I believe that our sport has a responsibility to uphold those values.

NK: And Jessie, 2027 is a ways away, certainly. But I'm sure you and others are also imagining what happens if this deal goes ahead and you're walking onto the pitch during the Women's World Cup and this company is a sponsor. Will you play? What are the scenarios there?

JF: To be honest, I think I'm not thinking that far ahead yet. I think if the time comes, that's a decision that's personal to each player. But for now, I think our focus is on this letter and hoping that people will be responsive to our questions.

NK: Jesse, I appreciate your time. Perhaps we'll speak again if you get that response. In the meantime, good luck on the pitch.

JF: Thank you.

CH: Jessie Fleming is the captain of Canada's national women's soccer team and one of more than 100 players to sign an open letter to FIFA. We reached her in Merida, Spain.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Mega Meteorite Study

Guest: Nadja Drabon

CH: More than 3 billion years ago, a gargantuan meteorite crashed into the earth. We call it S2. Yeah, that name really, really undersells all the destructive ocean boiling, light sucking, tsunami inducing effects a team of researchers is describing in a new study. Nadja Drabon is the lead author. She's an early Earth geologist and assistant professor in the Department of Earth and Planetary Sciences at Harvard. We reached her in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

NK: Nadja, take us back 3.26 billion years, if you could. This is a very different earth we're talking about. What sort of flora and fauna would I be seeing around me?

NADJA DRABON: So, the first thing you have to picture is that, you know, there are almost no continents sticking out of the water and there are very few islands. So, it was really a water world. And in that water, there were, there was life already present, but that life was very simple. So, we're only talking about single celled microbes, right? So, bacteria [inaudible] things like that.

NK: Then I imagine we start to feel an ominous feeling. You know, there's a giant space rock hurtling towards us. I know you've asked people to sort of imagine they're standing on an island or maybe the coast of Cape Cod at that moment. Describe what you believe happened next.

ND: Taking the time machine back in time. You know, you land on a small little volcanic island. You see that massive space rock rushing towards Earth. So, the first thing, of course, you would see is the flash of light on the impact event. And then the impact would release the massive air blast and the seismic waves. So really strong earthquake that would travel across the globe. Now, besides, you know, producing this shockwave, the impact actually released so much energy that the impactor itself and the target rock. So, you know, like the crust in the sediments that it landed on would actually vaporize to form a rock vapour cloud. So, we're injecting that rock vapour cloud into the atmosphere, putting a lot of dust into the atmosphere. So, you know, the skies would actually start turning dark. And in the process, you're putting so much heat into the environment that the atmosphere really started heating up [inaudible] a boiling point of water, so that the uppermost layers of the oceans actually started boiling off.

NK: Totally relaxing day, yeah. Just...

ND: Yeah, a relaxing day if that's not enough for you. On top of that because Earth back then was a water world you know, this huge ball like 40 to 60km in diameter was likely to hit the ocean. So, this would initiate an enormous tsunami, quite possibly bigger than anything humans have ever seen. And this tsunami would just sweep across the globe, rip up the ocean floor, inundate coastlines and being really devastating.

NK: It's all very fascinating. Maybe a little frightening, too. But clearly, this was not a small event, not a small rock. I saw one article describe it, four Mount Everest’s.

ND: Yes. [NK: Yeah]. It's the low estimate.

NK: The lower estimate. Okay. I know Nadja that the scientists have known about the crater itself for a while. But as you're doing this research, how do you even begin to recreate and piece together what you think happened billions of years ago, as you've described so vividly?

ND: So first, I would say what we actually have preserved in the rock record is not the crater. So, the crater is long gone. So, the place where we studied the sediments, we find trails. So, trails are you know, I was describing earlier that rock vapour cloud. So out of that rock vapour cloud restart forming like perfectly spherical particles that sink, you know, like through the atmosphere and land on Earth, like on a global scale. And that's what we used as an indicator for the meteorite impact. And that's also where we find an extraterrestrial iridium anomaly and extraterrestrial chromium isotope signatures that really tells us that we are looking at an impact event. And then to the second part of the question, right. Like, how do we study these rocks? We do a lot of fieldwork. So, we spend about three field seasons in South Africa. There's a beautiful mountain range that's called the Barberton Mountain Land. We drive to the field as far as we can. Usually we still have to hike quite a distance up to an hour and a half. And then we look at the rocks in great detail. So, looking, you know, before the impact happened, what do the sedimentary rocks look like? And then we compare that in great detail to what the sediments looked like after the impact happened. Then we of course, collect a lot of samples with our sledgehammer and carry all of those back to home Harvard for analysis.

NK: Yeah. When you when you say carry them, I mean, are you taking a couple of suitcases? What is that shipment look like?

ND: [laughter] I think over the years we collected hundreds of kilograms. So, we take some samples, the most precious, in our suitcases actually on the plane and the rest we just airfreight back home.

NK: We should stress your research suggests that, that very vivid moment of impact you describe it's not all bad news. There's a silver lining to this meteorite, if we could say. What were the benefits?

ND: Yeah. No, absolutely. So. You know, after all of these devastating events, we certainly believe that a lot of microbes died off. Right. So, anything that was on land but got really hard on the shallow water. You know, any life that relied on photosynthesis would have probably died off. But there were enough little refugia left. So like in cracks in the rocks or potentially in the deeper ocean where life could survive for quite a while and then once the conditions were turned back to normal, so that be within a few years to perhaps a few decades, life, you know, not only survived and advanced back right away, but we actually think that it like really bloomed. And this is for two reasons. So firstly, carbonaceous chondrites. So, this type of meteorite that hit, they can actually contain quite a bit of phosphorus. And if you think of the early oceans as being really starved of phosphorus. So, we don't think that there was a lot of life around. There were some, but not a lot. So, with this meteorite, you can almost picture it like a fertilizer bomb that just put a lot of phosphorus across the entire globe. And this is a very important nutrient for life. Then the second thing that helped microbes thrive in the aftermath of the impact is that with a tsunami travelling across the globe, it really mixed the water climate and brought water from the deep oceans that the rich in iron and nutrients up to the surface where life is living. So those two things together, right? So, the injection of phosphorus from the impact itself and the water masses from the deep ocean coming to the surface, we think that life actually, you know, really benefited from the impact for quite a while.

NK: Nadja, I'm so glad we could speak. Thank you.

ND: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.

CH: That was Harvard geologist Nadja Drabon in Cambridge, Massachusetts. She was talking about her new paper, which is published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Liquor-Holding Hornets

CH: You are a bartender at a bar for insects and things are buzzing.

SOUNDCLIP

Song: Be My Little Baby Bumble Bee with bee buzzing sound effects.

CH: That Termite came in and made the same joke he always makes. "Is the bartender here?". There's an ant drinking with her uncle who's an ant. A couple of gnattily dressed dudes in the corner - gnat's, of course. But among all these drunken insects, there's one guy who's really starting to impress you and scare you. He has been drinking for hours, and every time you ask him if he wants a refill, he says [Bee buzzing]. So, you get him another because as you could hear just now, he's not slurring at all. He's entirely unaffected by the ridiculous amount of booze he's put away. So, it's true what you've heard about the oriental hornet. The oriental hornet, which note to science it's probably time to rename, eats nectar and ripe fruit, which can ferment turning its sugars into ethanol, the kind of alcohol that humans drink on special occasions such as weddings or Tuesday. You know what it does to you? It does the same thing to every other creature that consumes it, except for that one kind of hornet. For a new study, scientists gave a bunch of these hornets only sugary solutions with different levels of ethanol from one per cent to 80 per cent. 80 per cent and the effect was nothing. No reduced lifespan, no impaired motor function. Not a single moment when a hornet turned to the other hornets and buzzed, "I love you, hornet guys". Now, that may be because of their genes, but whatever it is, these insects are just three and a half centimetres long and a little over an inch, and they can drink us under the table. You have to admit, that is sobering.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Part 2: BRICS Meeting, Susan Holt, Little Rock Nine Obit, Celtics Pressure

BRICS Meeting

Guest: Asli Aydintaşbaş

CH: Vladimir Putin may be facing an arrest warrant from the International Criminal Court, but that hasn't stopped him from hosting a party for world leaders. Today, the BRICS' summit began in Kazan, Russia. China's Xi Jinping, India's Narendra Modi and others arrived for three days of meetings that Russia hopes will help shift the global world order and provide it with a workaround for Western sanctions. The grouping began with just four countries, but its influence has grown. This year, the Russian president invited representatives from a number of countries who have expressed interest in membership. Among them, Turkey, which is the first NATO country to formally ask to join BRICS. Asli Aydintaşbaş is a foreign policy fellow at the Brookings Institution and a former journalist. She's in Washington.

NK: Asli, what message do you think Vladimir Putin is trying to send with this summit?

ASLI AYDINTAŞBAŞ: Well, only two years ago Vladimir Putin was a pariah. We saw that at the U.N. vote. We saw that no country really invited him or wanted to visit Russia. And it's quite incredible now, you have almost 20 heads of state, including some Western allies such as United Arab Emirates, Egypt and, of course, Turkey, that are going to Kazan in Russia to meet with Vladimir Putin as part of the BRICS meeting. I think that he is saying he very much sees this as propaganda effort and saying that Russia is no longer isolated.

NK: You recently wrote, quote, For years, Western policymakers have largely dismissed BRICS as more bark than bite, unquote. You also say it's time for that to change. Why?

AA: Well, yes, because obviously the BRICS started out very much aimed at creating an alternative to Western dominance in the financial system and in trade regimes and financial transactions and so on. And that hasn't happened. So, there was a tendency to roll eyes in Western capitals and basically dismiss it. But in reality, I think increasingly we're seeing BRICS countries now, you know, in an expanded form getting more and more serious countries on board. But we're seeing them come up with a very well-articulated criticism of the Western led order. They talk about hypocrisy. They talk about the need to diversify international governance institutions, the global financial system and so on. And also, they have a very clear goal to reduce dependency on U.S. dollar as the global stable currency. De-dollarization is not happening today, but I think the indications are that these countries are very interested in moving in that direction.

NK: Is it more than signals, do you think, Asli, that there's a real concern for the West here that this block is going to actually accumulate the kind of power that it doesn't have now?

AA: Look, I think the West does need to be concerned about this trend because this is the direction of travel. China has come up with its own version of SWIFT for international banking transfers. So, while it's not used heavily now, you know, we don't know where things will be in 10 years’ time. And similarly, I think they're talking more and more about trading in local currency, sort of a barter method. Trading particularly for energy deals, relying on their own currency swaps. And I think another trend that I have noted when I looked at the budgets in central bank reserves in some of the BRICS countries, was reliance on gold as a hedge for either sanctions or geopolitical tensions. For example, Turkey keeps a third of its foreign currency reserves in gold in a central bank. So, I think that trend is very, very important. And we can look at BRICS now as what it is. I think we have to take a longer term view of what these countries want.

NK: And you were mentioning Turkey, of course, is that currency issue the lead thing at play for a country like Turkey to enter the alliance?

AA: It seems Turkey wants to have a foot in each camp while it wants greater economic integration with Europe and certainly wants better relations with the West. On the other hand, it is almost in a post Western mindset. Very strong anti-Western sentiments and foreign policy is no longer aligned with its NATO partners. And increasingly, we see this sort of heavy criticism of the West on the Middle East, even on the war in Ukraine and so on. But, it wants to have a foot in each camp, wants to be able to trade with BRICS countries, expand its trade with China, but still remain in NATO. And this is one of the features of some of the countries that we see in the BRICS grouping Indonesia, Egypt. Certainly UAE, Saudi Arabia was set to go to this summit. They may change its plans now, but they're hedgers.

NK: There are moments of disagreement, disunity. Brazil, we know, has been campaigning against Venezuela's entry into BRICS, condemned Russia's actions in Ukraine. Do you see that as any kind of liability at this stage as it's trying to build its prominence?

AA: Sure. BRICS is not a political bloc or a political union at this point, and there are countries that have internal disputes, like, for example, China and India have a number of disputes, but also they are basically mostly countries that are looking after their own interests as opposed to wanting a political unity. I think the idea of turning BRICS into NATO is not going to happen. But there is common threads and one is that, you know, the rules of the international system, international financial system for sure, but also the rules of the Western led order has to change. And I think that is a very common theme. And you have a significant part of the world population, 45 per cent represented here. And I think we have to take this insurgency, so to speak, seriously. And they may not have identified the right way to wean out of Western influence at this moment, but they certainly are trying.

NK: Asli, I appreciate your time. Thanks for this.

AA: Thank you.

CH: Asli Aydintaşbaş is a foreign policy fellow at the Brookings Institution and a former journalist. She's in Washington.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Susan Holt

CH: Even in victory, Susan Holt doesn't seem entirely comfortable saying Justin Trudeau's full name out loud. Ms. Holt's Liberals won a majority in yesterday's election in New Brunswick, making her the first woman to win the job of premier in that province. And to do it, she had to overcome efforts by the progressive conservatives to tie her to the underwater poll numbers of the Federal Liberals and Prime Minister Trudeau. This morning, the Premier designate was asked how she had pulled that off.

SOUNDCLIP

SUSAN HOLT: Well, I mean, I think that the other campaign underestimated New Brunswickers and thought that, that folks wouldn't maybe know the difference or appreciate that this is a provincial campaign, that we are focussed on areas of provincial responsibility like health care and that we had local candidates and leaders who were there, you know, not on behalf of a federal leader or Trudeau, but on behalf of New Brunswickers. And so, I think when you underestimate New Brunswickers, then you get surprises like this and it's something our team is going to strive never to do. Is always make sure that we are in touch with the people of New Brunswick, what they want and need, and showing them our full respect.

JEANNE ARMSTRONG: Minute and a half left here Ms. Holt, but you talked about your family last night, knowing that the political arena can be a tough place. And I wanted to ask you about that comment you made. You know that there will be a roller coaster ahead for your families and your girls. What have you done to prepare your girls for what's ahead?

SUSAN HOLT: Well, we talked to them a lot about what they might expect and what they might hear from people about them, about me and what they might find themselves at the front end of and talk to them a lot about how none of that's personal to them. And that they have a team of teachers and their family and their neighbours that love them and that they're going to, are going to protect them, but that it is going to be hard and they're going to, they're going to hear some stuff about me that is going to be probably really hard to hear, but that John and I are here for them. And we will always put them first. So, you know, there's no political commitment that comes between me and my kids. And so, we just try to convey that stability for them, make sure that they feel safe and they know that there's a lot of people in their lives that are supporting them and will help them through when we when we have some of those ugly moments to come.

CH: New Brunswick's new premier designate Susan Holt speaking to CBC New Brunswick's Jeanne Armstrong.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

Little Rock Nine Obit

Guest: Melba Pattillo Beals

CH: When Thelma Mothershed-Wair went to high school in Arkansas in 1957. She made history. She was part of a group of Black students who desegregated the all-white Little Rock Central High School and went on to be known as the Little Rock Nine. They were met by jeering racist mobs, and after they were blocked from entering the school, President Dwight D. Eisenhower ordered the Army's 101st Airborne Division to escort them inside. From an interview in 2004. Here is Thelma Mothershed-Wair, recalling what that was like.

SOUNDCLIP

THELMA MOTHERSHED WAIR: When the 101st first came, surrounded us the crowd parted like when Moses stretched out his stuff at the Red Sea. The crowd parted like the waters. We walked on dry and cleanly into the school. Then we're each assigned a soldier inside the building who went with us from class to class and stood outside the door. Then 101st were recalled, our lesser guardsmen were there. So, some of those people, those young men may have just left [inaudible] the year before themselves. So how interested could they be in protecting us? Not at all.

CH: Little Rock Nine, member Thelma Mothershed-Wair died on Saturday of complications from multiple sclerosis. She was 83. In a press release, the Little Rock Central High School National Historic Site described her decades long work as an educator in Illinois and called her a trailblazing civil rights figure who leaves behind, quote, a legacy of courage, resilience and unwavering dedication to justice and equality, unquote. Melba Pattillo Beals is another member of the Little Rock Nine. We reached her outside San Francisco.

NK: Melba Beals When you hear Thelma's voice again today and when you hear her say the crowds parted, like when Moses stretched out his stuff at the Red Sea, what does that evoke for you today?

MELBA PATTILLO BEALS: Similar memories. You know, the soldiers took us, I remember the clap of their boots on the marble stairs or on the, you know, concrete, a marble stairs, whatever. You could hear them. Click, clack, click, clack. And the guy, [inaudible], I think his name was in front, had this leather stick he was pounding on it. And I just remember walking up the stairs thinking, you know, you've kept us out and I'll bet we're going to get in here today. And it's sad. But once you let us in, once you get to know us, you will not be this violent against us. I was honestly so innocent. I thought that once they saw that we were human beings, that we were quite similar to who they were, that would not treat us badly anymore.

NK: Things didn't get better for you and the others. How do you remember, what do you remember about how you and Thelma and the others supported each other?

MPB: Well, they kept splitting us up, but we would support each other in our Jeep riding to and from school. And we were tight most of us, we knew each other prior to attending that school. You know, at first you just, we pretend like it was a joke at some days. You know we talked about it as, as a funny, you know, like how could this possibly be. The only way you can possibly face something like this is to put it in context. For me my grandmother told me, my grandmother was really religious and I write about this in my book, "Warriors Don't Cry", which is the only way I got through this was prayer. So, for example, you can say the Lord's Prayer 13.5 times going up the stairs, depending on the speed or if you do it real slow, it's less than that. And so, I kept seeing how many times I could say this prayer from one point to the other because going from one point to the other, they walked on our heels and treated us terribly and 101st Airborne soldier that I had told me, look here, stand up straight. Keep their shoulders up straight. Look straight ahead. If you look vulnerable, you'll be jumped. Don't, don't give them an opportunity. And so, he was really, really helpful in telling me how to comport myself.

NK: The calculations you all had to make at such a young age. And I understand, you know, Thelma had health problems and it certainly didn't stop them from continuing to abuse her. Right.

MPB: You know, I'm five foot eight, as was Minnijean and Carlotta, we're three tall girls. Thelma Mothershed is very small, and she went in with heart trouble. So, at times, she would have to sit back on her haunches, sit down in order to get her breath and breathe. And I so admire her sweet, sweet, loving person. I spend a lot of time at her parents’ house, was a loving home with lots of kids and lots of love and just, you know, I was always received. I remember I went there the day my favourite person in the world, my grandmother died and went to that house and stayed because I knew that I would be welcome and could get love there and would be treated with respect.

NK: In that same 2004 for oral history that she did with the Little Rock Central High School National Historic Site. Thelma also speaks about how things, in her view, have changed over the years. I want to play that for you and our listeners as well.

SOUNDCLIP

THELMA MOTHERSHED WAIR: I think things are better. I hope that I had something to do that. I pat myself on the back, I still do.

INTERVIEWER: If I know that you talk to schoolchildren a lot, what do you tell them is the greatest lesson to be learned from the crisis?

THELMA MOTHERSHED WAIR: To just be fair to other people. Just be fair give other people a chance. Same kind of chances you want to have. Let other people have the same chance.

NK: So, she pats herself on the back and she should. As should you. What? What do you most admire about her?

MPB: Yeah, she has to do that because I would say that seeing equal is being equal. And if we are to have a country what survives, truly survives, we need to see each other as equals. And, you know, I give seminars around the world and the first thing I say to people is that equality means choice, voice and inclusion. I want a choice about things I want to be able to talk about and say what I want. I want to sit at the table and I want to be included. And so, what Central High School's goal, going to that school was an effort to get each and every one of us to understand that we are equal and that equality includes certain privileges and we have those privileges and we must exercise them all the time. None of us, I don't care how what you are with blue eyes or who you are, in these times can forget to fight for your equality because it is at risk. It is at risk in this election, it is at risk in this democracy. We are a horrifying risk for keeping our democracy and keeping our freedom and our personal equality as it has been. And so that's what Central High School was about. We didn't ask for anything except let us be.

NK: Are you tired of fighting?

MPB: Absolutely. But you know what? There is no tired. There's just march forward, Melba. Get out there and get going, girlfriend. However, you can do it. You know, I write letters. I make phone calls. I do whatever I can do, you know, from the place that I'm at this moment. [NK: Yeah]. And I do my Zooms around the world for young people trying to hope that they will understand that seeing equal is being equal. People don't understand that they get fried when you treat somebody unevenly and unequally. You know, you get fried at the same time. It's not about what, do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. Thelma said that. Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. And she certainly spent her lifetime treating everybody with quality. She always had a smile. No matter what condition her speech was in, she had a smile and sweet eyes and a sweet facial expression for everybody who came near her.

NK: You were sisters.

MPB: No question about it. So, when people say, how do you feel today? I feel the way you'd feel if your sister died. That's how we all feel. And we've all you know, we were in contact, we've talked among ourselves because we're all in our 80s now and we can't believe... We are grateful to God by the way, because when we went to Central High School, I told you, if you would have ask me, would we live this long, I'd say, No, we're going down here. You know, I thought at 15 and 16, I think I'm going to die in this school during this period because people were hanging ropes off trees and shooting at us and doing whatever they could. But I'm 80. I'm going to be 83 December seventh, so praise God I didn't die there.

NK: December 7th.

MPB: December 7th. I was born on Pearl Harbor day.

NK: We share a birthday.

MPB: You're December 7th, too. [NK: Yes. Wow]. I was born. They came in the room and told my mother they're bombing Pearl Harbor. And my mother said, you know what? I have my own bomb right here because my mother was like five feet two and weighed, you know, 130 pounds or something like that. And I weighed nine point something pounds. So, here I am. I'm 83. Just, about so, praise God that I made it. That's all I have to say is thank you. Thank you, God.

NK: I'm sorry for your loss, Melba, but so appreciative of your time today. I'm really glad we could speak. Thank you.

MPB: It's my pleasure. God bless you.

CH: Melba Pattillo Beals is a member of the Little Rock Nine. She's in California.

[Music: Electronic instrumental]

Celtics Pressure

CH: People in professional sports have to deal with incredible pressure. The pressure to perform, to earn your often exorbitant salary, to play your best every single night, or disappoint millions of fans who will yell at you. To defeat your opponents and keep defeating them until ultimately you defeat a final opponent and lift a shiny trophy of some kind. And for the Boston Celtics, there are stratospherically high expectations this NBA season since they're the current reigning champions and favourites to win again. So, it wasn't surprising that a reporter asked Celtics head coach Joe Mazzulla how he and his team are dealing with the pressure of those expectations. What was surprising was Mr. Mazzulla's answer.

SOUNDCLIP

JOE MAZZULLA: We're all going to be dead soon and it really doesn't matter anymore. So, zero pressure. We're either going to win or we're not.

CH: I guess that's the kind of ice cold mentality needed to be an NBA champion, the kind of motivational philosophy that really inspires your players. And when he was asked to clarify moments later, Mr. Mazzulla stayed on message.

SOUNDCLIP

JOE MAZZULLA: We don't have a pressure if we believe we're not losing our life. We're not surgeons. We're not like the military. We coach basketball for a living. And no one's putting more pressure and expectations than we are ourselves. And it's like we have a responsibility and we have an ownership. And like, I ask guys all the time, like, would you rather have someone expect you to lose or win? If you came up to me like, Man, I really expected you to lose that game, I would be pissed. But it's like you come up to me like you should have won that game. It's like, yeah, that's, that's what we signed up for. You know? So, I think it's just the perspective of how you look at it and like the truth, you know.

REPORTER: Words have power.

JOE MAZZULLA: They don't if you let them. Like, if you allow words to take your personal power, then yes. So, I don't allow words to take my personal power. And like, that's just important. Like, words don't have it. And like, that's what I try to teach my kids. It's like I don't give a [bleep] what someone says to you. Like, did you allow that to have an impact on you? Like, he didn't put his hands on you. He didn't touch you, he didn't like do anything, he said something to you. So now you have a choice to, like, decide how you're going to interpret that. So, like, it's not pressure. There's nothing anyone in the circle can do to me that can impact my identity and who I am as a person. So, we're either going to win or we're not. And forty years from now, none of you are invited to my funeral. And that's it.

CH: Boston Celtics head coach Joe Mazzulla speaking to reporters yesterday. The NBA season begins tonight.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

Part 3: Heart And Stroke Rescue, Autism Strategy Critic, FOA: Cirillo Anniversary, Ron Stewart Obit, New Bram Stoker Story, Ancient Coin Payout

Heart And Stroke Rescue

CH: Moments after crossing the finish line on Sunday in Winnipeg's Fire Paramedic Service half marathon, a runner suffered a heart attack. But as luck would have it, Jonathan Torchia was on hand. He's the founder and director of the race and the owner of a local running shop, and he worked as a paramedic for 13 years.

SOUNDCLIP

JONATHAN TORCHIA: I saw someone go down. St. John's Ambulance, our first aiders at the finish line, jumped into action and I got down there. I felt the guy's carotid pulse and he was pulseless. He wasn't moving, wasn't breathing. And I knew right away this guy was out for the count, full cardiac arrest.

FAITH FUNDAL: Were you even thinking when your brain swapped from race director to someone with a history of paramedicine service? Did that just kind of happened on the fly?

JONATHAN TORCHIA: It did, in a sense. For me the scary thought and the thing was, I knew the gentleman, personally in a sense of he, you know, he comes to the shop quite often. When I like rolled his body over and looked down to see who it was, I went, my God.

FAITH FUNDAL: And CPR is it is a team effort, isn't it?

JONATHAN TORCHIA: Oh, it's a full team effort. Like you need to have like a quarterback call it, who is calling the shots. Ok, you on compressions, you on the airway. There is no broken links in our system there. If there was a broken link in there, there was a delay in getting the AED, there's a delay getting compressions going or a delay in any of those processes. It probably wouldn't have been that good of an outcome.

FAITH FUNDAL: And how's he doing?

JONATHAN TORCHIA: To this day to this moment I'm texting with him and every day, almost a couple of times a day, I'm checking in with him. I paid a visit to him after the race. And, you know, we were talking and chit chatting and, you know, smiling and having some jokes and some small talk about running. And he jokingly said he wants to bring the PR bell because he ran a personal best that day. And in his words, he was joking around that his Apple Watch didn't stop. So, he never got to actually officially record on his own thing for Strava or whatever, that he got the personal best. So, he said, next year I'm going to come back and actually get it record in that sense. But nonetheless, his time did record when he came to the finish line, and it was a small little fun moment there to see him smiling. And I held his hand tight and said, Man, you're one lucky dude. You're one, one lucky guy. We're joking around. He said, Why, man, you have invincibility, almost invincible. Like cardiac arrest didn't take you out. He said, You know watching you like stub your toe and collapse. Like something else crazy. I said, You know, count your blessings, man. You're back here. You're on this earth. Two beautiful young children and a wife, like it's generally is a miracle.

CH: Jonathan Torchia is the founder and director of Winnipeg's Fire Paramedic Service half marathon. He spoke to Faith Fundal on Information Radio in Winnipeg earlier today.

[Music: Whimsical instrumental]

Autism Strategy Critic

Guest: Andrew Kavchak

CH: Last month, Canada released a new national autism strategy, which a lot of people have been asking and waiting for. But now that it's here, parents of children with severe autism are calling it inadequate or worse. The multi-year action plan outlines five key priority areas, such as improved screening, diagnosis and services across Canada. And speaking to the CBC's Marina von Stackelberg, yesterday, Health Minister Mark Holland defended it against criticisms from the Canadian Autism Treatment for Medicare Coalition.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK HOLLAND: Look, the framework and the strategy that we announced are a really important first step. And I and I was very careful not to hold it out as more than that. It gives us the compass and the map of where we need to go. And it means that provinces and the federal government and territories have to do, have to do everything that's contained in that strategy and in that framework to really materially change the lives of both the people living with autism and their families who have carried way, way too much. And I fully acknowledge that.

CH: Health Minister Mark Holland responding to criticism of the Federal Government's new framework and strategy for autism. Andrew Kavchak is the parent of a 23 year old autistic son who is non-verbal. Mr. Kavchak is a member of the Canadian Autism Treatment for Medicare Coalition. And we reached him in Ottawa.

NK: Andrew, does that acknowledgement from Minister Holland, him describing this as a first step and he later went on to say in that interview that that he understands the frustrations of families like yours. Does any of that reassure you?

ANDREW KAVCHAK: No, no, no, no, it doesn't at all. When the minister says that in this framework and strategy and proposal for this National Autism Network, that it constitutes like a first step. Well, you know, the Prime Minister Trudeau said in 2019 that his government would develop and implement a national autism strategy. So, we've been waiting for five years. And parents like me, like I started, my son was diagnosed in 2003. And when I realized that, you know, that the waiting lists for access to treatment were atrocious, I started protesting for federal involvement to assist the provinces. I started protesting on Parliament Hill in 2004. I mean, that's 20 years. And after 20 years, he says this, you know, we're at the starting line and that this strategy provides a vision and a compass of where to go. That's not true. If you look at the documents, there's no, there's no explanation of where we're going. I mean, there are just some high level general vision statements about, you know, the objective is to make life better. But how are you going to do that?

NK: What are some of the ways Andrew, let me just ask so our listeners understand. What are some of the ways you feel this strategy, apart from the timing issue, which we know you're concerned about and so many others are, how does it fall short for your family, this strategy specifically?

AK: Okay. I'll tell you. For parents of children who are severely affected, like I am, my son is 23 years old. There are two primary concerns. Number one, when a child is diagnosed, is to get access to treatment immediately. Intensive behaviour intervention treatment has been demonstrated since the 1980s as being the gold standard to try to help these children develop to their full potential. And there's a sense of urgency. So, getting access to that treatment is the number one priority. And right now, we have a real problem. When my son was diagnosed in Ontario, there was about a thousand kids on the waiting list. Today there's over 70 thousand. And the second thing is, you know, once a child becomes an adult, if they are still unable to live independently, like my son, unfortunately is, you know, it's a question of access to group homes. That's the second most important priority, but when he was 18, we had his name placed on a waiting list for access to a group home. And we were told that my wife and I would be taking care of our son until we could no longer do so because there was such a chronic shortage of group home places.

NK: That was five years ago you put him on the waiting list?

AK: Yeah. On the first day that he was eligible on his 18th birthday. And we were told that in eastern Ontario there are people in their 80s, parents in their 80s who still care for their disabled children at home. Now, this is crazy, you know, because the thing is that taking care of a seriously disabled child, that requires care 24/7 with every step, you know, throughout the day from, you know, dressing, toileting, food preparation, eating, daily activities and so on, you know, I'm not getting any younger. And as parents age, I mean, we just don't have the energy. I don't know how I can be expected to continue with this. I don't know, the government just says that this is a first step, but first step towards what? The strategy doesn't provide a single reference to treatment and it doesn't provide a single reference to group homes.

NK: The public health agency, as you likely know, earmarked 6.5 million dollars to establish a national autism network that would implement the strategy and then a framework to accompany it. [AK: Not quite]. You don't think that that's reassuring?

AK: If you read the documents what it is, to create a national autism network, which is going to be, you know, a bureaucracy with a board of directors that's going to create advisory committees, and they're going to work with the public health agency to develop an implementation plan for the strategy and the framework. There is no implementation plan at this moment. So, we've waited for five years for the government, but there's nothing to implement.

NK: So, what do you think would change things more tangibly? What needs to happen in your view?

AK: 20 years ago, a group of parents of autistic children took a case from British Columbia all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada, arguing for access to treatment through the health care system with Medicare coverage. And unfortunately, they won at the lower courts. But the Supreme Court of Canada rejected it and said all questions about health care are entirely up to the legislatures and the Canadian Charter of Rights has nothing to do with it, including the equality provision. So, you know, in 2007, the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs did an inquiry into the funding of autism treatment in the country, and they issued a report with recommendations to the government. That the government convened a meeting with the provinces, put some money on the table and negotiate for improved access to autism treatment. And, you know, unfortunately, the government, every government since then has completely ignored that recommendation.

NK: Why do you think that is? Why do you think you're not getting what you need sooner?

AK: That's a good question. You know, money has been earmarked and tagged specifically for certain medical procedures, and we've asked that the same thing be done for autism. And we consistently get a rejection with the statement that it's provincial. Well, if it's provincial, I mean, the federal government has to acknowledge that it in fact, does have a huge role to play in health care. It does influence the health care system across the country. So, I think the reason why the federal government has so far refused to do anything in that nature regarding autism is because there's simply no political will. Our children don't matter for some reason.

NK: Andrew, I'm sorry you and your family are going through this. I very much appreciate your time. Thank you.

AK: Thank you.

CH: Andrew Kavchak is a member of the Canadian Autism Treatment for Medicare Coalition. He's in Ottawa. We contacted Health Canada about this story. A spokesperson sent us a statement that reads in part, quote, While provinces and territories are responsible for the delivery of services, the government of Canada will continue to work with them to advance the needs of autistic people in Canada, unquote.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

FOA: Cirillo Anniversary

CH: It was 10 years ago today, October 22nd, 2014, that Corporal Nathan Cirillo was shot while standing guard at the National War Memorial in Ottawa. Immediately after he was gunned down, bystanders rushed to his side. One of them was Barbara Winters, who spoke with our former host Carol Off about that day. Carol asked her why she had run toward the gunshots.

SOUNDCLIP

BARBARA WINTERS: I don't know, honestly. I like to say it's human instinct. I think it's human nature to run towards somebody to help them.

CAROL OFF: You were part of a team, weren't you? I mean, you started it and then you were giving instructions, but you worked very closely with a group of others.

BW: I mean, I wasn't really giving instructions. It was a team effort. When I got there, there was a nurse there already, and the corporal who was with the two honour guards at the time, there's always a third person with these honour guards. The nurse was, had her hand and was compressing one wound and the corporal was compressing the other wound. There was a gentleman at his feet and another gentleman from the military at his head. And so, I just slipped in between them where there was space.

CAROL OFF: You spoke to him too, didn’t you?

BW: I did. I actually tried to speak to him the entire time.

CO: What did you say to him?

BW: Um, sorry, I told him he was…

[BW Sobbing]

BW: I told him he was loved and that he was a brave man, and that he was a good man. I said ‘Just think of what you were doing when this happened. Just think you were standing at the Cenotaph. You were honouring others. Just think of how proud that will make your family. I said, Your parents are so proud of you and your family must love you so much. And I looked for a wedding ring I couldn't see one, he had gloves on. I couldn't tell. So, I didn't want to say your wife. So, I just kept saying, Your family loves you. Your family loves you. Your military family loves you. I said, Look at these people. We're all here helping you were all trying to do what we can for you. We all love you. I said, the military loves you. Said, Listen, there's a colonel here helping you. And I just repeated, repeated, repeated that he was a brave man and that he was a good man and that he was loved and that he was respected and that his military comrades loved him and that his family loved him.

CH: That was Barbara Winters speaking to our former host Carol Off.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Ron Stewart Obit

CH: Early in his career, Dr. Ron Stewart parked his car and left his home in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, and made the six day drive to Los Angeles. It was the only place he could study what was, at the time a new field, emergency medicine. Dr. Stewart would later be credited with driving the modernization of emergency care in his home province. Today, he's nationally and internationally recognized as a pioneer in the field. Dr. Ron Stewart has died of cancer. He was 82. His list of accomplishments is very long. He helped establish the Center for Emergency Medicine in Pittsburgh. He lobbied the Canadian government to crack down on event sponsorships from tobacco companies. He's been named to the Order of Nova Scotia and the Order of Canada, and in the '90s he served for a memorable, if tumultuous period as Nova Scotia's health minister. In 2011, Dr. Stewart did a wide ranging interview with the CBC, where he touched on what drove him to pursue emergency medicine.

SOUNDCLIP

RON STEWART: I was destined in my own mind to become a teacher in a medical school in a new specialty.

STEVE SUTHERLAND: What was it about the circumstances or about you that allowed you to effect such transformative change in such relatively short periods of time?

RON STEWART: I entered a field of medicine that was absolutely new and you would not have had to excel terribly or be terribly clever to recognize what was given to you. I recognized it and it was my absolute passion. I believed that this was what I was to do. You have to be passionate about life and immediately, I mean that's the underlying of everything. You have to have the ability to recognize the opportunity. And I think that that's where I probably had an edge.

STEVE SUTHERLAND: So, what drew you to that, to emergency medicine at a time that it was nascent?

RON STEWART: Well, I am basically an innovator. I am basically a reformist at heart. I have been criticized as being an initiator with no long term plan. That's a bit unfair, but it is something I have to work at. I had to learn to apply myself in a longer term way and in reference to my political career, that's one of the things I had to work very hard at. So, in respect to emergency medicine, I was able to recognize the opportunity and I think that came from my roots here in Cape Breton.

STEVE SUTHERLAND: How so?

RON STEWART: Because I think that we as an island culture have to survive a little bit more. We have to have a little bit of an edge in order to survive in a, in some pretty harsh environments. The environment, whether it be lack of economic opportunity, whether it be a lack of mentorship.

CH: From 2011, that was Dr. Ron Stewart speaking with Steve Sutherland, host of Information Morning in Cape Breton. Dr. Stewart has died at the age of 82.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

New Bram Stoker Story

Guest: Brian Cleary

CH: We all know Dracula. The count with the cobweb castle. He's a really terrible host, vampire. You know this guy.

SOUNDCLIP

DRACULA: Listen to them, children of the night. What music they make.

CH: Dramatic match. It's just a wolf howling. Anyway, this histrionic Transylvanian was the creation, of course, of Irish author Bram Stoker. It's easily his most famous work. Much less famous is a story called Gibbet Hill, published in 1890 years before Dracula. If it was ever well-known, it's long since been lost. It's possible that nobody alive today had ever read it until Brian Cleary found it in the archives of a library last year. We reached Mr. Cleary in Dublin.

NK: Brian, what was it you were looking for when your eyes glance at this big discovery? What were you really looking for that day?

BRIAN CLEARY: Well, I was systematically searching for newspaper articles about Bram Stoker or mentioning Bram Stoker using the British Newspaper Archive in the National Library of Ireland. And I have for a few years been writing historical fiction. And part of the world building process is reading the newspapers and getting a feel for that time and that place. And, you know, I was reading through in great detail everything I could find about Bram Stoker over the course of probably 3 or 4 weeks. Yeah, a few weeks into the process, I struck gold.

NK: [laughter] Yeah, I'd say so. I mean, it's so, it's fascinating stuff anyway, right, what you're doing and you're interested in this you want to sort of devour all of the information. So, then you turn a page in a newspaper. What happens when you set eyes on this story and strike gold, as you put it?

BC: Yes. So, I found an advert for a supplement to the, one of the Christmas editions of the Daily Express, the Dublin version of the Daily Express. And that advert was basically saying that the supplement was for sale in the newspaper offices. And it contained original stories from a range of writers. And Bram's name was there. And the story that was listed was Gibbet Hill And that was a story that I had never seen before. I'd been reading about Stoker for years. I've been interested in him a long time and just had a sense that, my God, this is a lost ghost story from Bram Stoker.

NK: And even Stoker biographers have said they had never heard about this until now. Just as much as you can without giving away, of course, the story. Tell our listeners what Gibbet Hill published back in 1890, by the way, is all about.

BC: Yeah. So, it's about a man, leaving London for the day. He's on a day trip down into Surrey and it's an area called Gibbet Hill. So, it's called that because some thieves had murdered a sailor who was on his way from Portsmouth up to London. And they were hung on that hill on a gibbet. So, the gibbet was in place for 2 to 3 years and their bodies stood there. And that was a warning to other thieves. So, it's set in that scenery. And, you know, that story is referred to within this horror story but it's, you know, somebody on a break from a busy, a busy career in London like Bram had at the time, and they're strolling in this kind of idyllic scene, nice autumnal scene. And they meet three strange young characters and they have their own story. And that evolves then into the horror of Gibbet Hill.

NK: Did you like it? What review would you give it?

BC: I loved it. [NK: Yeah]. Yeah, I loved it because some of the stories that I found, some of his earlier works weren't great. But when I got to this one, it reminded me of the Judges House, which is another pretty famous short story from Bram that's been quite heavily anthologized in various book collections. So, it's good. It's worth a read. And I was delighted to be sitting there reading it in this old Victorian reading room.

NK: Oh, my goodness. I can only imagine. And it came out, it was published seven years before Dracula. What kind of connections or parallels even a relationship do you see between these two works?

BC: Well, there's a definite temporal link. So, he started Dracula in March 1890. We know that the first notes were taken around mid-March. He went on his holidays to Whitby in August 1890, and he took out a book in the library in Whitby and found the name Dracula. And he liked it. He wrote it down multiple times in his notes. And a few weeks later, he was near Gibbet Hill. So, it was right at the start of Dracula. He had plot lines out line for Dracula. There are, you know, similarities in the language, some similar themes. There's a malevolent trinity of characters in Gibbet Hill, and they're kind of replicated in Dracula in a certain sense. So yeah, there's definite parallels and very interesting for Stoker scholars and Dracula scholars to see this as a step in Stoker's development towards the person that would ultimately produce a book that has never been out of print. And a character that, you know, you type Dracula into your phone and you get a vampire emoji. I can't think of any other literary characters that have the equivalent. So, yeah.

NK: How do you think this came to be forgotten? I mean, you found out about it in a library. There's documentation that it existed. How did it go so long before someone you, lucky you got to set eyes on it.

BC: You know, these things are out there in archives waiting to be found. And there are people out there doing this research. You know, it was only recently there was a lot of lost articles phone from an Irish revolutionary called James Connelly. And I think that book is going to be published in the next few weeks. And this is multiple stories. So, this this happens. I think there was work from Mozart found in the last few weeks as well. So, there are things sitting out there in archives, you know, that somebody put this paper away in 1890. It's sat in a big tome in a dusty, dark room. And I, you know, the fantastic National Library of Ireland staff, Audrey Whitty is the museum director there. And, you know, she produced this big, massive book. And, you know, it was opened on a table in front of me. And I was looking at this newspaper that was archived away about 134 years ago and forgotten about. And here is his story again and people can enjoy it again.

NK: The story is going to be featured at the Bram Stoker Festival next week in Dublin. And you're going to be fundraising there for a cause that is very personal for you. Tell our listeners a little bit about that.

BC: Yeah. So myself, and the artist Paul McKinley and the Stoker biographer Paul Murray all contributed to the project pro bono. And we went to those from the foundation. I work in the Rotunda hospital. I went to the foundation, the charity associated with the hospital, and asked if they would publish it and set up a fund that would raise funds for deafness research and would be named after Bram's mother, Charlotte Stoker. She campaigned for education for deaf children in Ireland in the 1860s. Personally, I suffered from sudden hearing loss back in 2021, so I lost all the hearing and my left side woke up one morning and it was just gone. And over time developed crushing tinnitus. You know, this is an opportunity to raise awareness around immediate treatment. We hope that book sales and sales of the prints of Paul McKinley's art will raise funds, that they'll go into this Charlotte Stoker fund and that ultimately we be able to do research, deafness related research.

NK: Brian, a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you.

BC: Likewise. Take care. Thank you.

CH: Brian Cleary found a story that was written by Bram Stoker more than a century ago. We reached him in Dublin.

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

Ancient Coin Payout

CH: Adam Staples' hobby requires him to trudge through cold rain in the English countryside. So, it's really only fair that it just made him a lot of money. In 2019, the amateur treasure hunter and his friends stumbled on an unbelievable find in a farmer's field. A thousand year old silver coin. And then another. And another. And in total, they found more than 25 hundred coins from the 11th century. During the time of the bloody transition from Saxon to Norman Rule in England. It's the highest value treasure find ever recorded in the United Kingdom. Today those coins were purchased by the Southwest Heritage Trust for 4.3 million pounds. That's 7.7 million dollars Canadian and half of that goes to the owner of the farm. The other half goes to Adam Staples and his friends. This morning, he reminisced about that fateful day on the BBC.

SOUNDCLIP

ADAM STAPLES: Well, we were in Somerset on holiday, as you say, and it was actually my friend who dug the first coin up. He shouted me over, he said, he said, I found a silver coin. And I went over, had a look at it, and I was able to identify it as a penny of William the Conqueror, a very rare coin. And after a few minutes of looking at the coin and taking photos, we started to walk away and got signals immediately under our feet next to where the first coin was found. And yeah, it just led to more and more coins.

TIM FRANKS: I mean, yes, beep, beep, beep, beep. And these were coins from a thousand years ago. I mean, you the fact that you were able to identify this as a coin of William, from the era of William the Conqueror is just amazing in itself. But, I mean, you must have been simply staggered by the size of the hoard.

ADAM STAPLES: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, we were, we didn't know how many coins were there originally. We weren't counting them as we dug them up and we kept them all preserved in lumps of soil, waiting for the archaeologists to come and analyze them. And we only counted them a few days later and we were staggered to find they were, I think they were 2,480 something from that first day.

TIM FRANKS: Good grief. And am I right in saying that this was a fairly new venture for you?

ADAM STAPLES: No, I've been metal detecting for about 30 years. [TF: Oh, right]. My friends had recently purchased a brand new metal detector, a new type, and I was down there for the weekend showing them how to get on with it because it was the same as the one I had.

TIM FRANKS: I see. So, it was a new bit of kit, at least for your friends. I mean, you then took this off to the British Museum. I mean, before that happened, you must have just thought I mean, you knew that this was important, but I mean, you must have been slightly terrified about sort of having to look after this extraordinary hoard.

ADAM STAPLES: Oh, absolutely terrified. Yeah. After the field, we went immediately to the pub where we all sat in the pub nursing a pint, looking out the window at the car that was full, a big bucket full of coins worth millions of pounds.

TIM FRANKS: Trying to look, trying to look is as innocent and unconcerned as possible.

ADAM STAPLES: Trying to look as casual is possible. Yeah.

CH: That was Adam Staples speaking with the BBC's Tim Franks about finding a hoard of thousand year old coins and the huge payout he just received for them. Starting next month, the coins will be displayed at the British Museum in London.

[Music: Theme]

CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

[Music: Theme]

The AIH Transcript For October 22, 2024

Social Sharing