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The AIH Transcript for October 02, 2024

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Detour de force. A Canadian and his family flee southern Lebanon after Israeli airstrikes and run the gauntlet through multiple countries to find their way to safety.

CH: Labouring under apprehension. A professor in Tehran says people in his city are preoccupied by the Israeli government's promise to retaliate for yesterday's missile barrage.

NK: The world comes crashing in. As they clean up after Hurricane Helene people in Asheville, North Carolina, also grapple with the realization their city is not as climate safe as they once believed.

CH: A bad trade off. A group of Indigenous women from Ecuador are in Canada to protest a possible trade deal between the two countries, which they say would put their territory and their lives at stake.

NK: Off the beetle path. A Welsh entomologist has spent decades studying an unusual, creepy crawler known as the rove beetle. And he tells us he's as shocked as anyone that it earned him a MacArthur genius grant.

CH: And in summary, one is 'summery'. Over the past 10 years, the New York Times cooking section has described a lot of food using adjectives ending in 'Y'. And if you've wondered which are most common, you're about to get lucky. As It Happens, the Wednesday edition, radio that's a bit of a 'Y's guy.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Canadian-Lebanese Evacs, Helene: Asheville Residents, MacArthur Recipient, NYT Cooking Adjectives

Canadian-Lebanese Evacs

Guest: Kumayl Takache

CH: Tonight, Canadian Kumayl Takache and his family are safe in Paris, thousands of kilometres away from their home in Nabatieh in Lebanon. Mr. Takache fled last week with his mother and father, his sister and her two kids who are 6 and 10. Amid Israeli strikes on southern Lebanon, which Israel says are targeting Hezbollah, the family spent eight days travelling through Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Turkey to get to France, where they arrived yesterday. Global affairs has said that hundreds of other Canadians have also left Lebanon on government booked flights. Fighting between Hezbollah and Israel escalated on the ground today, and Mr. Takache has no idea when he'll be able to go back to Lebanon. We reached him in Paris.

NK: Kumayl, how are your nephews doing right now?

KUMAYL TAKACHE: They're very, they're very strong. They're doing okay, but they're obviously traumatized whenever they hear anything like loud noises. Like even if a door shuts suddenly, they think it's an airstrike, they jump, you know. They like to draw. So, at the moment, all they're drawing is buildings getting blown up and, you know, that kind of stuff. Some of the scenes that they've had to see, despite that, they're too young.

NK: What do you say to them?

KT: Generally, I just give them a lot of hugs and smiles, you know, tend to be strong and pretend that we're all okay and everything's going to be okay just so that they can, you know, live off of that illusion.

NK: Who does that for you and the other adults, though?

KT: No one. Actually, I pretty much do it for the adults as well.

NK: If you don't mind taking us back when you had to leave Lebanon, how long did it take first just to get to Beirut?

KT: Well, usually it's about an hour drive, but it took about 13.5 hours.

NK: So that footage that so many of us are of, you know, just a long, long line up of cars, people trying to get out of where they were. You were you were all in that?

KT: Yeah, I was. I was right there. There were airstrikes while we were on the were on the road, like next to the road. On the road. I actually know a couple of Canadians, like a Canadian couple who was living there and they both died in an airstrike. So, they were trying to take a sort of an alternate route and a building was bombed where they were passing and they didn't make it.

NK: So, it's terrifying just at that first stage, certainly. And then the goal is to get to Beirut and fly to Paris. Your flight to Paris was cancelled. So how did you get to France in the end?

KT: So, we got to Beirut. We had a fully booked in a couple of days. And like on the day of the flight, we were pretty much expecting that it wouldn't happen. And that's what went down. So, at the time, we decided to get in the car and go to Syria, try to fly from Damascus. Syria was very, very heavily sanctioned right now. So, what happened is there are no flights from Paris to anywhere but few Arab capitals. And even those flights, they're really hard to book and it's going to take some time. So, it was going to be like till mid-October that we could book a flight to somewhere else in the Arab world. And then from there, we would have had to book to Paris. So, what we did was after spending a couple of days in Syria trying to get out of Syria, we pretty much just left the car there, got on a bus and went to Jordan. From Jordan it was easy enough to book a flight. We did have a really hard time on the way on the border getting into Jordan.

NK: How long are you planning on staying with your family in France at this point?

KT: So, I mean, we've rented for a month now. Like, we're hoping things will settle down, but we're not optimistic. If they settle down before the month is over, we go back to Lebanon. It's not we're just going to move on to Canada, probably try to start our lives all over.

NK: You're all Canadian citizens.

KT: Yeah.

NK: And you certainly have the ability, the means, as difficult as this journey is for anybody. But how much does something like this cost.

KT: Yeah, so we're extremely privileged. Like right now, my mind and my heart is with my friends in Lebanon. Like the people who aren't carrying foreign passports and the people who aren't, who don't just have cash on demand that they can use to get out, you know. As for the journey from Lebanon to Syria to Jordan to Paris, across the board all of, between 10 and 20 thousand dollars, you know, that was very expensive.

NK: And you left your car, as you said, in another country.

KT: You know, we just ditched the car in Syria because, I mean, at the moment, we're just thinking we've got to get out all this with our lives. Car doesn't matter. We're probably going to; we're probably not going to have a house when we go back. We're not going to have any property anymore.

NK: Do you have any news on how your family members who couldn't leave are doing?

KT: Yeah, just this morning. My second cousin and her family were air struck and they're all civilians, needless to say. But their entire building was brought down and they're all, they all didn't make it. Actually, her daughter made it because she was out getting food.

NK: Oh Kumayl, I'm so sorry.

KT: Thank you.

NK: I've heard people talk about the emotions, the mix of emotions obviously, that one feels having to do what you and your family just did. But then the feeling of those left behind who didn't make it. How do you even deal with that at this point?

KT: Honestly, that's the worst part. Like having been in France for under 24 hours, I still haven't gotten around to feeling anything. We're still very much numb, still very much in survival mode. But, you know, when I reach out to my friends in Lebanon, when they reach out to me, that's honestly the worst part. Like, I feel very guilty about being privileged enough to leave and I feel like I want to be doing something. I feel like extremely restless. I want to be helping somehow. I want to be offering psychological first aid. I want to be helping the paramedics. I want to be distributing food and stuff. But I can't. You know, that's obviously absolutely the worst part, you know.

NK: What is lifelike normally for you in Nabatieh?

KT: So, in Lebanon, there's been an economic crisis. So as a 25 year old, I work, like, three jobs to make do. So, I have a cafe there and I private tutor and I'm also a chess coach. On weekends, I go to Beirut, I hang out with my friends from university. Like I pretty much enjoyed it. It was it was fun. Like it was I was active. I was a young, single person who would run around and have fun, you know, And now it's all gone. I never mentioned how I left on Monday, so I was at my cafe on Monday morning. It was, my cafe's, right between three universities. And I was ready for like a big rush and stuff. I went early in the morning. I sort of prepped everything got ready to open. I was making a latte for myself, and then there was an airstrike directly across the street. And my whole, like my kitchen was in shambles. It was my whole rack of syrups was just exploded in my face. My latte was on the ceiling. And there was also some property damage there. So, I just got in the car and I went home and I told my parents and my family to pack up. You're not going to convince me that the building facing my cafe on University Street is some sort of military base or so on. It's just nothing, you know, It's just people.

NK: Kumayl, I appreciate your time. Please stay safe. Please take care. Thank you.

KT: Thank you. Thank you for giving me a voice.

CH: Kumayl Takache is a Lebanese Canadian in Paris, and that's where we reached him.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

Helene: Asheville Residents

Guest: Erica Scott

CH: Days after Hurricane Helene made landfall much of Asheville, North Carolina, is still without power. Thousands of people still don't have running water. People are still unaccounted for and residents are grappling with the new knowledge that they are not as safe from the impacts of climate change as they may have believed. In recent years, Asheville has undergone a boom partly because of its vibrant arts scene and the fact that it has so many breweries that it started calling itself "Beer City, USA". But also because of its geography, the city is nestled in the Blue Ridge Mountains and was recently named one of the top U.S. cities expected to receive an influx of newcomers due to climate migration. Erica Scott has lived in Asheville for the past six years. That's where we reached her.

NK: Erica, can you give us a sense of what's happening around you right now?

ERICA SCOTT: I'm at a Whole Foods actually in my neighbourhood, which is a Wi-Fi hotspot, and it has great reception here. And there's about, you know, 30 or so people here also on their computers and devices trying to get in touch with loved ones. So, I just, I'm in the parking lot. There's a gentleman playing a guitar to help us all feel better. And just the sounds and sights of the city in repair.

NK: The grocery store is the hub right now?

ES: Yes, yes. It's one of the hubs or several, but this is a really good one. And a community centre, too. It's really helpful to see people.

NK: You know, our listeners just heard in the introduction that, you know, an influx of people to Asheville has been expected, is unfolding because of climate migration. Is that why you wanted to leave where you were? I know you lived in California and other places before choosing Asheville. Is that what drew you?

ES: It's definitely one of the big things that drew me, and it's always something that I have felt a sense of, like simultaneously pride and relief in that this seems to have been or seems to be a bit of a safe haven in terms of all of the climate change that we see all over the planet. So, it has been such a refuge. You know, we get regular rain here, but usually not too much. We get like a very mild climate here in these southern mountains, but we don't have the extremes. We hadn't had the extremes until recently that we see in so many other places. So, it did feel like a relief to be here.

NK: So, when Helene hit, what did that feel like?

ES: Terrifying. And a huge wakeup call. Truly. And I've been talking about this with my neighbours and my friends who don't live in the state and some of my friends that do live in this area that it just feels at this moment in time that it's becoming very real, that there is nowhere that is not impacted by climate change in some very, very drastic and deadly and severe ways.

NK: I know your neighbourhood was not hit as hard as some were. Still, there is damage and shock for a lot of people, as you've said. How are people dealing with what has happened?

ES: I mean it's interesting, I think people have their own personal ways of dealing with the shock and trauma and devastation that we see even in our neighbourhood, which is not nearly as bad as some of the more flooded places. But I will say also what is such a bright spot for me is that people are coming together so lovingly with kindness and generosity and helping each other. Offering people water, Offering people food. On my street in particular, half of the street has power and half of the street does not. And I'm on the side that does not but the people at the end of the side that does have power put out a power strip on their porch. And just welcomed us all to come and plug in our phones and charge up our computers whenever we needed to do that. So, there's so much kindness and so much generosity and sharing. It's just like incredibly heart opening.

NK: That's a similar to what we heard from a pastor earlier this week in Swannanoa, who said people were kind of split before. They didn't really interact as much. But he's seeing people really come together in the aftermath of Helene. He also said, though, that none of them really had a sense of the scale of the damage beyond their immediate area because they have no substantial contact really in terms of news or the outside world. Is that a similar situation where you are?

ES: Very much so. Very much so. When we've been saying that to amongst ourselves in the neighbourhood, how really insulated we are from so much of the damage that's widespread around our city and around the area. We're aware that there's flooding, but we're not, we haven't really been able to like see it on the news or look it up much online because we're really trying to deal with just what's in front of us with no running water and no power for many of us, and not any ways to get in touch with our friends and family. And we've also said amongst ourselves, help probably helpful in some way that is because we know that when we do start seeing that footage, it's going to be incredibly traumatizing because there's so much devastation.

NK: What's your sense from what you are able to glean and find out of when things will be a little bit more back to normal for you and folks there in terms of power and water and those sorts of things.

ES: It's hard to say, but what I understand from updates from city officials is that they're working on getting most power restored by Friday. That's what I've heard. But that water will take a lot longer because it's a much, much bigger issue. And I think they're saying weeks to a month or more. It's really hard to say. And that, I think, is the single most difficult and totally unexpected thing, is to just not have any running water in our homes...

NK: So, what are you doing?

ES: Well, sharing resources. So, I have a neighbour who has a giant rainwater tank with a hose attached to it, and they've invited us all to come and fill up pots and pans and containers of any kind to get that kind of water that we would then have to boil to drink. Also, there's lots of water distribution centres around town that they've finally been able to open up for people. So that's been really helpful. There seems to be plenty of water, drinking water for, you know to go around for everybody. But still, it's a long term issue. It's going to take a long time for us to get that back, and that's a really big deal.

NK: You talked about this being a wakeup call and you're already an environmentally conscious, climate conscious person. Are you going to shift the way you prepare and live in Asheville now?

ES: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it would be foolish not to as big a wakeup call as this is to not make some pretty big changes in how I live. I think we just have to be aware that these things can happen to anyone, anytime, anywhere, even in the places that you think are safer. They may be safer in general, but I think there's just always the risk of these things happening because we live in a changing world.

NK: Erica, thank you for your time. Please take care.

ES: Thank you so much. You, too.

CH: We reached Erica Scott in Asheville, North Carolina.

[Music: Lo-fi instrumental]

MacArthur Recipient

Guest: Joe Parker

CH: Joseph Parker's research is important. World renowned. Yikes. Nope. Sorry. I just looked at a picture of the things that he's researching. Mr. Parker is an evolutionary biologist and the director of the Centre for Evolutionary Science at the California Institute of Technology. And for years he has focussed on exploring the evolution of symbiosis through the study of rove beetles that live with ants and shoot all kinds of chemicals out of the glands on their butts. It's pretty specialized work involving creatures that some might prefer never to have learned about at all. But the MacArthur Foundation does not feel that way. It has just awarded Mr. Parker one of its 2024 genius grants, which include an 800 thousand dollar stipend. We reached Joe Parker in Pasadena, California.

NK: Joe Parker, MacArthur Fellow. How does that sound, has it sunk in yet?

JOE PARKER: No, I'm not sure if it's ever going to sink in. I'm still processing it. It's a huge shock.

NK: I bet. I bet. And you get an email or a phone call. How did you find out?

JP: Well, I can tell you an abridged version of the story. I got an email from the MacArthur Foundation asking for input on one of their new programs focussed on climate change mitigation. And they specifically wanted to pick my brains about the relationship between climate change and beetles, which are the organisms that I study. And when they actually came to the phone call, the person from the foundation asked me first off, whether I was alone in the room, which I thought was quite strange. And I said I was. And then they said, Well, actually, you know, we wanted to talk to you about this one thing that we told you about, but actually we want to talk to you about something else. And that thing is that we'd like to award you with a MacArthur Fellowship. And at that point, I was in shock. [NK: Yeah.] Yeah. Yeah, It was huge emotions. And honestly, I haven't really recovered from that moment. Having your work read back to you and your accomplishments described to you in someone else's words who's really taken the time to truly understand what you've done and what's original about it was, that was an incredible thing to hear. And that brought me to tears, actually.

NK: That's a separate prize in and of itself, honestly.

JP: Right. Right.

NK: You talked about what you study. The star of the show, of your show in this case is the rove beetle. Can you just tell our listeners how and why you ended up dedicating your life to them?

JP: Well, I fell in love with insects when I was a seven year old kid growing up in South Wales. And, you know, in the UK we don't have like flashy tropical insects there. So, you end up studying what's around you. And often these are kind of really tiny beetles that live down in the dirt. And rove beetles are actually the largest family of beetles. And so, I started focusing on these when I was a teenager. And one of the first things you learn about them is that many times during their evolutionary history, they've done something truly remarkable, which is that they've evolved the ability to transition to symbiotic life inside colonies of ants. And when they do this, they evolve really dramatic social behaviours. They evolve new ways to chemically manipulate or communicate with ants. And so, they just become these really elaborate symbiotic organisms that are so specialized for life in these otherwise really hostile ant societies. Learning about this is as a kid was just the most fascinating thing in the rest of the insect world fell away and I just was preoccupied with rove beetles.

NK: They're it for you, you've also said that rove beetles in particular are beautiful under a microscope. Tell us more, please.

JP: So anatomically, these things are really small. They're so easily overlooked. I should imagine most of your listeners have never heard of a rove beetle. But they're ubiquitous. And if you do ever have the opportunity to look at one down the microscope, you'll see this extremely ornate, almost mechanical organism that behaves in ways that are so, to me inspiring and just one wondrously complex. And then they undergo this transformation to live inside ant colonies. And their body form their anatomy becomes what is effectively biological stealth technology. They start to resemble the ants in many cases. So, they look less like beetles and much more like ants. And we think this yeah, we think this serves to trick the ants into thinking that these beetles are ants. They evolve really dramatic chemistry. So, they evolve glands on their bodies that can secrete chemical secretions that can manipulate ant behaviour. So, ants are hostile to really anything that's not a member of the colony. But these beetles have evolved to concoct these potions that can manipulate and pacify ants. And so, the beetle can gain acceptance inside the colony, and then they'll physically interact or socially interact with them through grooming and bodies. And what they're doing in the process is stealing ant pheromones, which they then paint over their own bodies. So, they smell like the ants. So, the ants will then accept them into the nest.

NK: You could see this as all, as very beautiful and remarkable and fascinating, but also terrifying. Should we be?

JP: Oh yeah. Well, I think we have to remember that most forms of life on planet Earth, or a huge fraction of organismal life, is making its living at the expense of another species. So, this is actually very normal, even though, you know, by our standards it's incredibly dramatic. And yes, I would say kind of shocking. But yeah, it's just kind of par for the course in evolutionary biology.

NK: In terms of this fellowship. When you think back to being a little kid in Wales, is this the story you wrote for yourself in your mind?

JP: I mean, I am that kid still. Nothing has really changed. I've just been incredibly fortunate to have found a path through life that's allowed me to continue studying them and exploring them. I just love these insects. And to then be told that actually other people have noticed what you've been doing and you know you've been doing something good. Like it's incredibly validating. But without this award, I, you know, I, of course, still be doing it. I can't not do this. Is this deep inner compulsion and just so sort of wrapped up in my identity as a human to study these insects.

NK: Joe, congratulations and thank you. I'm glad we could speak.

JP: Thank you very much. It's great talking to you.

CH: Joe Parker is an evolutionary biologist and entomologist who has just been awarded a MacArthur 'Genius Grant'. He's in Pasadena, California.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

NYT Cooking Adjectives

CH: English is a pretty good language, but sometimes it tries too hard. Like 'pulchritudinous' means beautiful. Okay, calm down. English. Whereas in other cases it just seems lazy. For example, adjectives ending in 'y' like lazy. Centuries ago, someone saw someone else lazing and said, Why do you laze? Why are you lazy? There's wind. So, it's windy. You've got an itch. So, you're itchy. I could list hundreds of these words, but I don't want to be wordy. This is 'something-y' format is especially common in the world of food writing where description is of course, everything salty, sugary, crispy, crunchy, excreta-y... And now a redditor by the username 'waitingforgoodO' has helpfully identified the most commonly used adjectives ending in 'Y' that appeared in the New York Times cooking section between 2014 and 2024. Now, as you would guess, this is of course a series of bar graphs broken down by year. So, results vary over time, but overall, it looks like 'buttery' takes the cake. Other top modifiers include earthy, garlicky, lemony, meaty and silky. And then you've got some more nice descriptors like leafy onion-y, peppery and summery. And on the lowest tier you have helpful but gross adjectives like briny, runny and soupy. Listen, if something is soupy but it is not soup, do not serve it to me, please. Ah, there you have it. Those are the adjectives used most often by New York Times cooking writers ending in 'Y', none of which are the silliest adjective describing taste, which is, of course taste-y, but all of which you have to admit are actually helpful, even if they do make you feel a little salty.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

Part 2: Ecuador Indigenous Activists, Iran Professor, For The Record: Miller Migrant Detention, Japanese-Canadian Baseball

Ecuador Indigenous Activists

Guest: Ketty Nivyabandi

CH: Today, a group of women from Ecuador were in Ottawa protesting against a free trade agreement between their country and Canada. There's a lot at stake for both countries who are in the fourth round of negotiations right now. In 2021, Canadian mining investments in Ecuador surpassed two billion dollars. But activists like Hortencia Zhagüi say that for their communities, there's a lot more than money at stake. At a press conference, she talked about why she's against the agreement. Through an interpreter.

SOUNDCLIP

INTERPRETER: We fear that if a free trade agreement is signed, affected areas that are already militarized and guarded by the police and the national government will experience even more violence. This trade deal will compromise our rights even more and infringe on our ability to protect what is ours. I demand that the Government of Canada stop supporting mining in Ecuador. Mining benefits only shareholders and large investors who have no regard for people's lives, nature or biodiversity. These economic interests are destroying our communities, our paramount and our wildlife.

CH: That was Hortencia Zhagüi, an indigenous activist from Ecuador, speaking in Ottawa earlier today. Ketty Nivyabandi is the Secretary General of Amnesty International Canada, which is supporting the women while they're in Canada. We reached her in Ottawa.

NK: Ketty, beyond what we heard Hortencia talk about there, what are some of the other stories and examples that you're hearing from these women, these activists?

KETTY NIVYABANDI: What we've heard from the four women who are here on this delegation, three of them Indigenous, two of them Indigenous women, one you've just heard from, and another one representing an NGO. Is the level of violence criminalization that communities are experiencing in Ecuador when they oppose these mining projects. So right now, what we heard earlier from [inaudible] in that same press conference that over 100 people are currently being prosecuted for opposing these extraction on their territories. Not only is it destroying their environment, it is also, as one of them told us, it is an attack on their own bodies as well as women. And because the retaliation against men is so violent, it is often the men in their own communities who are asking them, the women, to move forward and take, you know, take the frontline because they hope that they will face less violence.

NK: Well, given all of that to come here and to speak out so publicly, so to be so vocal against this trade deal, what kind of risks are these women taking?

KN: You know, I get goosebumps when I listen to you asking me that question, because yesterday in one of the meetings we had with the women, one of them told us very clearly, she said, I do not know whether I will stay alive once I go back to Ecuador. People know that I have come here. They will hear about it and people have died while doing exactly what she's doing. And she told us, well, I will hold. I want everybody to know that I will hold my government, Ecuadorian government, the Canadian mining companies responsible for anything that happens to me. So, the risks are extremely high. But at the same time, what they've told us is we had to come all the way to Canada to ensure that our voices are heard because they have not been heard until now.

NK: We requested a comment from Mary Ng, the Minister of Trade. As we wait for that, we can look back to February when the Minister assured her counterpart of Canada's full support for Ecuador's efforts to protect its citizens, safeguard human rights and fight against organized crime. That's what Mary Ng said back in February. What do you say in response?

KN: What I say in response is that Ecuador is not doing that. Ecuador is not protecting human rights. It is not protecting its people. We have documented this at large. We are not the only ones to have done so. U.N. experts have issued several calls, recommendations warning that, against the violence that Ecuador, the government of Ecuador, is exercising against its citizens. So, if Canada is relying on Ecuador to uphold human rights, I'm very sorry to let the minister know that that is not the case.

NK: There is also the issue of jobs that always comes up in this conversation. Minister Ng has highlighted the fact that Canada is Ecuador's largest foreign investor and that's largely due to the mining industry. So, there are plenty of jobs that come with that. Is there concern or how do the women and you address questions about what a withdrawal of that kind of investment might mean for people in Ecuador?

KN: Once again, I think you have to listen to the people in Ecuador. All right. So, to make that decision, you have to have all actors at the table. And this is why it's so fundamental to hear directly from them what the Indigenous women who were here today would tell you is that the working conditions, first of all, are not optimal, but also that many of these workers have themselves been violent towards them. And because of the level of lack of accountability and the impunity that is brewing in these mining projects. So once again, it's a decision that is being made without the full perspective of everybody who was involved.

NK: That's something that Mary Lawlor, the U.N. special rapporteur on human rights defenders, said to us as well when we interviewed her on As It Happens, back in July, she said, you know, there are companies that do things the right way. So, to say that, you know, to bring up the issue of jobs without addressing these other concerns is hypocritical, as she put it. She also noted that the Canadian ombudsperson for responsible enterprise does not have the power it needs to hold companies responsible. That's something she was stressing in her conversations. Global Affairs says it is planning a review of that office. Does that alleviate any of the concerns?

KN: No, it doesn't. Why? Because we've also been calling for a review of that office for years now. And to date, the core, the ombudsperson for responsible enterprise still does not have those critical powers to compel testimony and documentary evidence. And so, this means that with all the goodwill in the world, she or he right now, it's just she does not have the power to make companies that are not being cooperative actually cooperate in the process.

NK: So given all of that and what you've said and the risks they're taking and the questions they have heading back home, what ultimately will be the message that these activists from Ecuador, these women, will be able to take back home with them to people who, you know, the other people they're advocating for?

KN: I think what they're taking back is saying we've put everything on the line. We've put our lives on the line to ensure, to protect our community and to tell them in, these are their own words "that our territories are not for sale". So, we've done all we can. That is what they'll go back and say. Now can we say the same. Can Canada say the same? We've done all we can to ensure they are protected, to ensure this agreement does not happen at the expense of people's lives and people's rights? I don't think so. There's a lot of work that we still need to do.

NK: Ketty, thank you for your time.

KN: Thank you.

CH: Ketty Nivyabandi is the Secretary General of Amnesty International Canada. She's in Ottawa.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Iran Professor

Guest: Sadegh Zibakalam

CH: Tehran is anxious tonight. Yesterday, the Iranian military fired a wave of ballistic missiles into Israel. And Israel's prime minister is promising payback. Payback, that according to the BBC. Iran's top general has said would be met with more payback in the form of more missiles and infrastructure attacks. But Sadegh Zibakalam has a record of questioning the official line. Professor Zibakalam teaches politics and sociology at the University of Tehran.

NK: Professor, I wonder how you and your family are doing tonight, how you're feeling tonight. A day after Iran's missile attacks on Israel.

SADEGH ZIBAKALAM: Myself and my family, like many other Iranians, we are very worried as to the reaction which the Israelis might show. And many Iranians were surprised last night of the missile attack on Israel. Of course, there are those who support the Islamic regime. They were very much excited and they are very, very thankful. And they were very joyous and they were very happy as to what happened. But not everyone was happy of the news of the missile attack.

NK: Some analysts have said, you know, given what's happened, Iran had to respond to save face. That's how some analysts have framed this. But as you say, you were surprised so...

SZ: I think you see that there are there are some 20 per cent or maybe 30 per cent of Iranians who do support the Islamic regime. And it had put the Islamic regime in a very awkward situation. In a sense, it was forcing the Islamic regime to do something because after the assassination of Ismail Haniyeh, nothing happened. And if nothing would have happened after the killing of Hezbollah, it would have put the Islamic regime in a very awkward situation in the eyes of her supporters.

NK: But now it's a much more dangerous situation. It appears, as you know, that the tit for tat rhetoric is escalating between both sides. What do you think Israel might do next?

SZ: Really, we don't know. But it would be very surprised if the Israelis would not take any action. I mean, some Iranians are hoping that because the missiles, the 200 or so missiles did not inflicted any serious damages as far as destruction and the killing of people were concerned. Some Iranians are hoping that the Israeli might feel that they do not have to take revenge. But I think this goes contrary to what Netanyahu and other Israelis have been saying, that Iran has made a gross mistake in firing those missiles.

NK: How do you think this shifted from Iranian officials at the United Nations General Assembly, making what appeared to be conciliatory statements and moving in a different direction to this moment now?

SZ: Many, many people were hoping, including myself, that the with Mr. Pezeshkian who became the new Iranian president three months ago, many Iranian who voted for him, they somehow felt that things would be better and there would be maybe some reconciliation between Iran and the past. No, unfortunately, it hasn't worked out that way. I don't mean that it is Mr. Pezeshkian's fault, but the whole situation in Middle East, unfortunately, during the past three months has moved from bad to worse.

NK: Do you see an avenue for de-escalation at that point? What would that look like? What would that take?

SZ: It is possible that President Biden would, as it were, would twist the arms of Israeli not to take serious military operations against Iran, because if that happens, then it would be the turn of Iran to take revenge. And it is possible that President Biden is urging Israelis that please make your operation very limited so the Iranians do not feel that that that they have to take, again, a second round of operation against Israel.

NK: You've seen a lot in your years in Tehran. You've seen Iran develop and change. You've seen conflict in the region. Does this moment feel more frightening or dangerous to you or more volatile? Or does it seem like something you've seen.

SZ: Certainly because... Unless the Israelis have been bluffing. Otherwise, you have to be prepared for an attack on Iran.

NK: Just before we let you go, professor. You know, there were reports just this past spring that you were detained and jailed for questioning the Iranian government on other issues.

SZ: Yes, it is true. I was for two months in Evin Prison. I had the 18 month sentence and I went into Evin. But because I have an illness I have to be out of prison for medical treatment and they said that, okay, for four months, they would let you out of prison. Now, at that four months, nearly three months of it has begun. And I am waiting to see what decisions will, the security officers will take.

NK: Yet you still speak to the media. You speak out.

SZ: They didn't tell me, they didn't tell me that, while you are out of Evin you must stop talking and giving interviews.

NK: Professor, I appreciate your time. Thank you. And take care.

SZ: You are welcome. Thank you very much. Bye bye.

CH: Sadegh Zibakalam teaches politics and sociology at the University of Tehran. We reached him in Tehran.

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For The Record: Miller Migrant Detention

CH: There's no question that Quebec is struggling to support an influx of asylum seekers. How the province will deal with the issue, however, is not clear. But François Legault has some suggestions. Quebec's premier is in Paris, where he told reporters this week that Canada should draw inspiration from France, namely by establishing waiting zones where asylum seekers arriving by boat, train or plane could be held at the border for up to 26 days. Yesterday, Mr. Legault mused about establishing such zones in provinces outside of Quebec. And today he noted that Ottawa should make the relocation of asylum seekers obligatory and called for the transfer of half of all refugee claimants currently in Quebec to other provinces. Marc Miller is Canada's Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship. Here's how he responded to Premier Legault's suggestions, for the record.

SOUNDCLIP

MARC MILLER: If you look at what's happening in France, there is a process whereby they at times can hold some people up to a month that would pose legal challenges in Canada. Also, we have to remain in the practical. When people show up in Canada at ports of entry, it's typically either the land border with the U.S. or at the airports. It's not through boats or trains or otherwise. Our borders are not as permeable as France. And the reality is that if you were to have this sort of system, what impact would that have on someone coming here? Would they avoid those, you know, would they declare at the airport? Would they declare inland? So, these things have to make sense. And first and foremost, Rafi, they have to be humane and humanitarian in nature.

REPORTER: What do you think's going on? Why do you think Mr. Legault is even floating these kinds of ideas?

MARC MILLER: I think there's a lot of politics that's driving this. I think this is a rhetoric that I think he can weaponize for his own political purposes. And I think at the end of the day, we have to stay in the reasonable and the practical. Asking you to reduce the number of asylum seekers in Quebec by 50 per cent is essentially saying, get rid of these people for me. Without looking at the work that's been done by our groups. And we would have to go to people's doors and knock on them and ask them to leave. There's things that have to make sense. We've been asked to reduce the number of asylum seekers in Quebec. They are taking on their disproportionate portion. We've done some work at Trudeau Airport in the last three months. It's showing some initial results, but it's nothing that's going to be fixed overnight. There is an issue of capacity, but when you hear that type of language, it becomes more of a question of whether it's a willingness. And that is a different thing than measuring capacity. So, we've got work to do federally. I have a good relationship with my provincial counterpart. I plan to keep that relationship. I'm not going to compromise my principles. But we owe it to Canadians and to Quebekers to make sure that when asylum seekers get here, they're treated first and foremost in a humane way and in a fair way to other provinces.

REPORTER: Do you think this is going to become a political football now?

MARC MILLER: It's already a political football. I just want people to play with a fair set of rules.

CH: For the record, that was Canada's Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship, Marc Miller, talking to reporters today.

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Japanese-Canadian Baseball

CH: As competitors members of the Asahi baseball team were tough. The team of Japanese Canadian players formed in B.C. in 1914 and won several championships through the 1930s until their success was abruptly cut short. During the Second World War the team was disbanded and players were sent to internment camps, along with thousands of other Japanese Canadians. Among them was Kaye Kaminishi, who had joined the team as a rookie just a couple of years earlier. Mr. Kaminishi died over the weekend. At 102 he was the team's last surviving player. In January, the city of Vancouver honoured him and his late teammates by declaring an official day in their honour. At the time, Kaye Kaminishi and his son Ed spoke with the CBC.

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CAROLINE CHAN: Congratulations on this day. What do you think about it?

KAYE KAMINISHI: Thank you very much. You know it's, for me I'm so happy to see there's still people thinking about [inaudible] very special you know.

ED KAMINISHI: Dad grew up in Vancouver. He was born and raised in Vancouver. And for him to be recognized by the city of Vancouver, by the mayor, he's still sort of in disbelief on what's going on. It's amazing. For myself, same thing. I just can't stop thinking about, Wow, how you know, how the Asahi has done so well.

CAROLINE CHAN: Why do you think it still resonates so much like this Asahi team?

ED KAMINISHI: I'm not sure why, but I think it's brought on by a lot of the Japanese people. They remember when they were growing up watching the Japanese Asahi baseball team play. And I think it represents the resiliency of the Japanese, even though that they're up against more powerful players on the baseball diamond, they were able to still be able to overcome that and win the game. So, it's amazing. That said, it's too bad that a lot of the old general managers, the coaches, the players and a lot of the fans, too, aren't here to see this. Their team, the Asahi team being recognized so, so graciously.

CH: Kaye Kaminishi and his son, Ed Kaminishi, speaking to the CBC's Caroline Chan in January. Kaye Kaminishi died over the weekend. He was 102.

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Part 3: Emily Carr Found, Calgary Reporter Attacked, Oyster Killing Parasite, FOA: Macarthur Winners, Coyotes Sad Eyes

Emily Carr Found

Guest: Allen Treibitz

CH: Allen Treibitz has an eye for a gem. The American art dealer was at a barn sale in New York State a few months back. He was browsing when he spotted a small painting of an Indigenous memorial post done in broad strokes. There's a carved beast at the top, behind it are simple buildings, a tree and a moody sky. It was signed by the artist, but he didn't recognize her name. He bought it anyway for 50 bucks. And it turns out it's worth much, much more. We reached Allen Treibitz. It's in Amityville, New York.

NK: Allen, I'm looking at what you were looking at in that barn, this piece of artwork. What were you thinking in those moments as you first set eyes on it?

ALLEN TREIBITZ: It was something special. You could tell it was stand out from the rest of the things you see in my travels as a dealer. It just stood out and, you know, it was definitely, definitely had a look that was special.

NK: What were some of the details that that made it special? If you could describe that for our listeners who haven't seen the photographs of the painting yet.

AT: Well, it was painted boldly. The image is very cool and Indigenous looking, an odd animal, a bear on a totem pole in the middle of like a rural housing area. It's kind of cool. You don't see subject matter like that all the time?

NK: No, certainly not. And then your eyes glance down to the bottom corner. What does it say there?

AT: And it says Emily, it says M. Emily Carr. And the area that it was painted in Masset, Western Canada.

NK: Yeah. QCI 1912. So, seeing Emily Carr did that set off the alarm bells.

AT: No, that's the point. I mean, there are thousands if not tens of thousands of great artists and I see great works by many different artists, but I just put it in a package of things that I was acquiring that day knowing that it was something special. I did a quick research because that's what I do. And I realized, you know, she had some pretty big importance. So, I didn't really get to do a lot of that research until I ended up with it and started moving back towards the west end of Long Island.

NK: And so, when you get back, how long after that did you realize really what you had purchased?

AT: Slowly it kept building. Since I am a dealer, I have avenues to do research. And that's how I ended up finding Heffel, which has been an amazing partner in this, you know, looking at auction results and doing her biography and her history. She's pretty significant. So just kept building on value as time went on, You know, as I kept delving deeper and deeper into researching and her history and her work, it kept building in significance and, you know, realizing that Heffel, the auction house, was the right place for it to be.

NK: And how did they respond when they realized what you had?

AT: Pretty excited. Also, apprehensive because they weren't sure it was real because it wasn't in one of the catalogue raisonnés And it was unknown to exist sitting in a little barn three thousand miles from where it started. But then once I started sending pictures of the front, of the back and of the work, they were like, super excited.

NK: And what were they able to figure out and tell you about, you know, its origins where, how it ended up in New York State and so far away from where it was painted.

AT: Well, my preliminary research was that she had been in New York in the 30s, but in New York City, about 100 miles from where I found it. But since they have all of her writings and her diaries, they were able to decipher after a while that she had been out east in that area back in the 30s. And that's probably how they, she either gave it to the owner, who I don't know who the original owner was. But yeah, so I knew she was here at some point for a very short period of time, but I didn't know that she was out in the Hamptons.

NK: So, it's going up for auction next month. It could bring in as much as two hundred thousand dollars, though who knows what can happen at an auction, you know, as well as we do that, things can change. Certainly. Again, you bought it for 50 dollars. Have you spoken to the folks at the barn since?

AT: No. My connection to them ended after I had left. It was a, you know, public sale. So, after I left, my connection to the homeowners ended.

NK: It's interesting. I mean, certainly they're not art dealers, but the name was there and they didn't Google it. Or did you talk to them at all about it?

AT: Yes. And also, where it is, where it was that nobody else, because there's a lot of people that do what I do, that nobody knew it was there. That's even more kind of surreal that it had been sitting there and kind of nobody knew it was there. And since it is signed so legibly it yeah, that just is more kind of shocking to me.

NK: Where do you hope it ends up?

AT: Well, I hope it ends up in, you know, an appreciative end user or somebody, a museum because it is lost to time and found so that would be really cool. And I'm sure that that's what it's going to end up, where it's going to end up going. So, either one of those is a pretty great ending for the painting.

NK: Allen, thank you.

AT: Thank you.

NK: Take care.

CH: Allen Treibitz is an art dealer. He's in Amityville, New York.

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Calgary Reporter Attacked

CH: They beat up Rishi Nagar, but they didn't break his will. The news director for RED FM in Calgary was attacked a few days ago outside a banquet hall. Police say they're looking for two suspects and that they believe there's a connection between the assault and reporting Mr. Nagar did last week related to a weapons incident. This morning, Rishi Nagar talks to CBC Calgary.

SOUNDCLIP

RISHI NAGAR: I have sustained a very severe left eye injury and it is recovering. And by next Tuesday, I'll be back at Rockview Hospital eye clinic to get the thing clear, as my retina is, under the risk of rupture or some sort of severe damage. So, things will be more clear on next Tuesday.

LOREN MCGINNIS: Can you take us through what happened on Sunday?

RISHI NAGAR: I knew one of them. He was known person for the last 7-8 years. So, I, I didn't doubt anything. So, he introduced me to the other guy, and then they started talking about the thing that I reported on Wednesday last week regarding the incident that happened at Dashmesh Cultural Centre the previous night, there were two gun wielding young men were arrested. So, he said, whatever you report the next day in your program was not correct. That was his assumption. So, I said, okay, if you have any concerns, we can sit together and we can discuss. And if you want anything to be done from me or RED FM, I can do that. In the meantime, the other guy who started throwing punches on my face, it was totally unprovoked. Things were going well. We were discussing in a cordial way, but the other guy started throwing punches. So, the very first punch threw my specs off and then the second punch came right into my left eye. So, I lost my conscious for a few seconds and then I fell down. I get up again. He gave me blow after blow after blow on my face and head. Then someone came from their car and they rescued me, they came to my aid. And then they fled in their own car.

LOREN MCGINNIS: The journalism community is responding to this nationally and perhaps beyond because you understand this attack to be targeted based on reporting you've done.

RISHI NAGAR: Of course, this is an attack very clear on freedom of expression, attack on free press and journalism. So, this as an assault on the principle and foundation of a free and democratic society.

CH: Calgary reporter Rishi Nagar speaking with Loren McGinnis, host of the Calgary Eyeopener.

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Oyster Killing Parasite

CH: Bob MacLeod was out on the water this afternoon doing what he's done all his life, fishing for oysters. But today he's worried about his livelihood. A parasite that kills oysters before they're ready to harvest has spread across the island. It has no impact on the person who eats the oyster, but it could definitely affect the people who depend on the harvest to pay the bills. Recently, the parasite was found in Malpeque Bay, home of the world famous Malpeque oyster. Bob MacLeod is the president of the P.E.I. Shellfish Association. He told CBC, P.E.I. how he's feeling.

SOUNDCLIP

BOB MACLEOD: I feel very good after what we're seeing, what we've seen in the deck this spring with the spread. Well, I mean, right now in our fall season, we just started 15th September, in the areas that were fishing, it wasn't detected. So, we're not really seeing any mortalities from yet, in the fall. But now with this widespread, we don't know what we're going to be facing this spring or even next fall because the mortality is pretty high in the [inaudible] right now it's pretty sick and frustrating and this is our livelihood.

BOB MURPHY: And P.E.I. is known for its oysters. How big of an industry. Though, is it on P.E.I.?

BOB MACLEOD: Well, the wild fishery alone, just the wild fishery alone, contributed over 10 million dollars in the last year in sales. With over 20 million dollar spin off just on the wild fisheries and oysters. So that's pretty devastating to a little island for sure.

BOB MURPHY: And you talked to other people in the industry. What are they saying about the prospects of that happening?

BOB MACLEOD: Everybody is really pretty nervous. Nobody knows what to expect. Everybody's kind of, it's pretty devastating blow. Whoever thought something like this would ever hit P.E.I oysters you know; it's been a pretty stable industry for a lot of years. And everybody's scared. Everybody I talk to, everybody's nervous, they'll know what to expect. You know, I mean, a lot of us is not very well educated. A lot of us never finish school, education's not big. So, at our age, do we retrain is there anything... I don't know what's gonna... It's a scary situation, it really is.

CH: P.E.I Shellfish Association president Bob MacLeod, talking to Bob Murphy, host of Maritime Noon.

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FOA: Macarthur Winners

CH: Earlier in the show, Nil talked to Joe Parker, one of this year's MacArthur Foundation genius grant recipients. Mr. Parker's particular genius, Étude, is rooted in his research into the evolution of symbiosis, as exemplified by the relationship between certain ants and certain beetles which shoot chemicals out of their butts. After listening to that interview, I can understand if you're feeling like you'll never be recognized by the MacArthur Foundation because you don't know as much about insect butt glands as Mr. Parker. But MacArthur grantees come from all kinds of fields. Like Canadian magician James Randi. Here he is talking to guest host Susan Reisler after being awarded a genius grant in 1986.

SOUNDCLIP

SUSAN REISLER: Mr. Randi, I know you're a magician and you perform some amazing tricks over the years, but this has to be your best. How does it feel to be named a genius?

JAMES RANDI: Well, I hate to hear that it's called a trick. But it was a manoeuvre perhaps that was entirely independent of me. I realized that there's no way that you can get yourself nominated for a MacArthur Award. You just have to be in the field or in any field of endeavour that's worthwhile and stay in it long enough until you begin to be recognized. I guess that's the way it happened, though it still is a bit of a mystery to me. They took a big chance on me. I think the MacArthur Committee is a very conservative bunch and they just reached out to said, Hey, this guy's work is worthwhile and it's exceedingly flattering to me.

SR: Well, the awards usually go to scientists or academics, artists. What do you think a magician is doing in that crowd?

JR: Well, since I'm adopting scientific methods, though I am strictly an amateur at science. I'm adopting scientific methods to look into claims of the paranormal, the supernatural, and the occult. And I have been very successful in that I've been able to uncover an awful lot of fraud in the field, and I have been able to successfully expose a great number of people who are claiming supernatural powers such as just recently, the Faith Healers, WV Grant, Peter Popoff, David Paul and a few of the others who are using trick methods to convince people that they have powers and that they are in touch with heaven and can heal people.

SR: It sounds like there's a scientific aspect to magic.

JR: Well, it's an art in some respects, but technologically speaking, it is very scientific and psychologically speaking, it's perhaps the epitome when it comes to examples of how psychology can be applied. The magician must be a very masterful psychologist in order to make his audience believe what he wants them to believe and see what he wants them to see.

SR: Will this award gives some or more credibility to the work you've been doing?

JR: Absolutely. It's not only the cash amount, which is in excess of a quarter of million, and three. The major point of the thing is that it means they recognize the kind of work I'm doing and I have to include in the honours here the Committee for Scientific Investigation of Claims of the paranormal, a group of academics, philosophers, scientists and various other people in various specialized fields that I organized or began to get organized and helped to organize back in the early '70s. That group has been doing very, very useful work and frankly, without their backing and support I certainly could not have attained the very large profile that I have now as an investigator of these claims.

SR: But is this money to be used for research on parapsychology, on psychic powers, or can you use it also on developing new magic tricks?

JR: Well, the MacArthur committee says that I can use it any way I want to, they don't check up on me. They don't ask for any reports. They say it's yours to use. One of the reasons they gave it to me is because, as they say in their rules and regulations, that it is given to people who they think are easily self-directed and who will adopt a responsible attitude about it. And I'm certainly going to do them proud in that respect. They've had very few, if any, disappointment. I don't know of any at all in that regard, and I certainly am not going to disappoint them.

SR: But will you be using the assistant to saw in half...

JR: No, this is a researcher. This is a person who will be travelling around the country in my stead and investigating particularly of the Faith Healers who I am really after at this moment.

CH: That was Canadian magician James Randi talking to guest host Susan Reisler in 1986. Now, the MacArthur Foundation clearly saw magic in Mr. Randi's magic, but it also heard magic in the work of Grammy winning musician Chris Thile, who was awarded a genius grant for his exceptional creativity on the mandolin. Here's Mr. Thile talking to a former host, Carol Off in 2012.

SOUNDCLIP

CAROL OFF: These genius awards the MacArthur Fellowship hands out, they're very secretive about who gets them and the whole process. So, did you know anything, when they called you, did you even know who it was that was calling you?

CHRIS THILE: No, I didn't. And that's why I didn't, I didn't pick up at first. I actually, he kept calling and calling but I didn't recognize the number. And so, I didn't pick up because I just, I never pick up when I don't recognize the number. They called 6 or 7 times and then finally they left a voice message. But it was very secretive sounding. And I actually kind of got freaked out. I thought maybe something sinister going on.

CO: What did they say?

CT: Well, so at first, they said, Hi, Chris. This is, he said it was Daniel Socolow who was the, I guess, the director of the foundation. And he said, he said, Hi, Chris. This is Daniel Socolow and I have something of great interest to you and to us to speak with you about. So, if you wouldn't mind giving me a call back as soon as possible, I'd be, you know, much obliged. Something along those lines. I just thought it would be like a gig or something, you know? But then he left another message saying, Don't tell anyone about this call. And that's what I thought this sounds really sketchy. This sounds like what happens right before you get shot. You know, you get a phone call where someone tells you not to tell anyone about it. So, then I, of course, human nature being what it is, I told someone right away about the call because I was all, I was freaked out. And it was my tour manager and he said, well, I'll Google the number he did. And he said, It appears to be from something called the MacArthur Foundation. And then I, you know, went white as sheet because I've known about the award. I have a very close friend who won one a couple of years ago. And so, I actually had to call myself down. I kind of laid, I laid facedown under a sink in my dressing room. That actually helped a little bit.

CO: But this was I mean, And when did you finally get it confirmed that you had, in fact, won a genius award and they were going to give you a half a million dollars?

CT: Well, after I could, after I could breathe again, I called him back and I got his secretary, who was very sweet and said, he'll call you back within 15 minutes. Then he called and sort of slowly unfolded what was going on. And I managed to not fall over, but I was pretty, pretty stuttering. And not articulate. I'll say that.

CO: Now where you where you are articulators with your mandolin and your music, which is absolutely extraordinary. And can you just describe your approach to the mandolin and music generally?

CT: Well, for me, the mandolin is a tool. You know, I look at it, I look at the development of facility on, on any instrument as being, you know, a means to an end. Certainly not the end in of itself. Well I think there's a little bit of fetishising that goes along with instrumental prowess that I don't think is necessarily conducive to great music making. And I liken it to, you know, someone who was, you know, I don't know, great at swinging a hammer, you know, but if they just bang nails into a two by four all day long, it doesn't help anyone, no matter how good their hammer swinging technique is. You know, the only thing that matters is what you're building. So, I definitely, mandolin for better or for worse it's my voice. You know, it's more my voice than my actual voice is, although I do love to sing as well. But, you know, it's only as useful as whenever I can sort of fashion it into.

CH: That was bluegrass musician Chris Thile speaking to Carol Off in 2012.

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Coyotes Sad Eyes

CH: Animals have their special ways of generating deep emotions in us when they look us in the eye. Like, for example, when Jaden, one of the raccoons that lives in the ceiling of our studio, locks eyes with me, I'm immediately awash in terror because I know he's very hungry and angry. He's doing that right now. Hey, Jaden. [Raccoon sounds] No. No. I got you the bruschetta. It's right, it's right in front of you. Jaden. Stop freaking out. Just take it. Just take the bruschetta. [Raccoon sounds stop. CH: sighs] Jaden. Anyway, sustained eye contact with most wild animals is unnerving for human beings. That's why our connection with dogs is so special. They're known for a very different kind of eye contact, thanks to a talent for lifting their brows and looking up at us with heart melting puppy dog eyes. Now, for a long time, scientists have thought that that special ability was key to dogs success in making it into our hearts and homes and into our families. But new research published in the journal Royal Society Open Science, suggests that that ocular talent is not actually quite a special as we'd assumed. It turns out that coyotes or coyotes, if you prefer, have the very same specialized eyebrow raising facial muscles as domesticated dogs do. That opens the possibility that the puppy dog eye ability is not all about us and that coyotes or coyotes could use facial expressions for communication amongst themselves. And the coyotes could, if they wanted to lull us into saying, awe before biting our arms and legs. And if so, we will find ourselves more browbeaten than ever.

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CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

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The AIH Transcript For October 02, 2024

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