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The AIH Transcript for November 19, 2024

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NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: A thousand days in. Ukraine hits another bleak milestone since the Russian invasion. And as new uncertainties emerge in the conflict, we'll reconnect with a surgeon in Kyiv who has grown unhappily familiar with the effects of war.

CH: Anti-climatic. One of the world's top development economists tells us the COP climate negotiation process needs total reform, starting with the petrol powers who've been playing host.

NK: Their minds are on her mind. For three years New Brunswickers have been desperate to find out what might be causing a mysterious brain disease. Premier Susan Holt says getting answers is a priority for her new government.

CH: A break from brake lights. Manhattan has approved a plan to implement a toll to reduce congestion. An advocate says that will slowly drive much needed change.

NK: Watch your step. A man in Kansas tells us why he created a Facebook page for people to share the terrifying staircases they've stumbled across or down and the kinds of things users are railing against.

CH: And in the lab of luxury. An Australian company prepares to launch lab grown foie gras prepared from a slurry of quail cells, just the way you like it. Banking on a so far non-existent high end market for science made meat. As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that works foie-lessly.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Ukraine 1000 Days, N.B. Brain Illness Probe, Death Stairs, Lab-Grown Faux Gras

Ukraine 1000 Days

Guest: Mikhail Zagrychuk

CH: A thousand days ago today, Russia launched its invasion of Ukraine after years of escalating tension. And ever since the tension has just continued to escalate. After getting the go ahead from the U.S., Ukraine has struck deep inside Russia with American made weapons for the first time. That move was answered by Russian President Vladimir Putin, who announced he had lowered his nation's bar for using nuclear weapons. Early in the conflict we spoke with surgeon Mikhail Zagrychuk who described the scene when his colleagues were forced to complete a heart transplant on a 14 year old boy after the hospital lost power during a rocket attack.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKHAIL ZAGRYCHUCK: We never experienced such a situation before, and I don't wish anybody to experience the same stuff. But they could manage light from mobile phones, from, from the lights on our forehead, special ones. And they managed to finish this surgery. And fortunately, fortunately, this child survived, and surgery was successful. But first couple of second, of course, because nobody was ready for it, and it was, it was very, very horrible.

CH: That was Dr. Mikhail Zagrychuk back in 2022, we reached him again today in Kyiv.

NK: Doctor hearing that conversation, how has the war affected your work as a doctor since that conversation?

MIKHAIL ZAGRYCHUK: It's affected a lot to be on honest. We have everyday soldiers and civilians, people who wounded during Russian bomb attack. And also we hear every day, at every day and every night alarms, bombs around institutes around other hospitals. But we get used to it unfortunately, almost three years.

NK: What does getting used to it look and feel like at this point?

MF: To be honest, I don't even know how to comment on this. I thought before the war start, I thought it is impossible to get used to this situation. But this is a life, you know, if every day, every morning you're waking up because of bombs around your house, you just get used to it and life is continuing it's never stop. It's horrible. We are dreaming about stopping this war, but what can we do for now?

NK: Did you expect, you know, in those early days, in that first year, did you expect that nearly three years down the line, a thousand days later this would still be happening?

MF: Of course not. Nobody expected this. We hope it maximum months or two, but it's not true that is 1000 days. It is not true. Our war starts since 2014 and since 2014 when we lost Crimea, when we lost the Mariupol, Donetsk, Lugansk, there was the war every day and our soldiers were killed every day. And of course, this is last one thousand days it's more horrible days in Ukrainian history. And we didn't expect that this will be so long. And more than that, I don't and we don't know how long it will continue yet.

NK: That not knowing the weariness, do you think Ukrainians have had enough? I mean, is it at a point if we talk about a potential peace process that people in Ukraine would accept losing territory if it meant ending this war?

MF: It's very, very difficult question with no answer because, you know, if every day, three years, day from day to day, we hearing bomb attack, we losing people and, you know, the only one desire you want is just to stop the war. So I think a lot of people will be ready to accept losing some territories. But this is only my own opinion from other side. I think it should be a referendum where we will have a chance to decide. But I don't know how to do this in the, during the war. So it's very difficult questions with without correct answer I think.

NK: Support from the United States has been key obviously for your country and for its military. As you watch what is unfolding in the United States, the political situation, the election, the re-election of Donald Trump, how are you feeling about what it might mean for your country and the prospect of peace?

MF: Well, first of all, I would like to say thank you to Canadian people as well, because your country and your people helping us a lot. But of course, United States is a leader, leaders in this process. And we believe that Donald Trump will stop this war. He at least he promised to do this for 24 hours, even before his inauguration. It's not happens yet because it was impossible. But, you know, as I told before, if every day you feel the bombs around your house, you can believe in anything because the only one desire each Ukrainians has is to stop the war. So I hope Americans and especially Donald Trump's team will do it and stop this war.

NK: Do you think is his relationship or what we see to be his relationship, what they've said between him and Vladimir Putin will help your country or hurt your country?

MF: I don't know, to be honest. I hope it will help. But we never know how it will be in real life. It's not about his, I think it's not about the relationships. I think it's about personal country politics. And it's very, very difficult political decision has to be made.

NK: You've likely heard Vladimir Putin's announcement that he's changed Russia's nuclear doctrine. What do you make of that? Do you see that that is signalling an increased willingness to use nuclear weapons? Does that feel like a real threat?

MF: I think so. Unfortunately, unfortunately, I think this guy can make these and he can start the nuclear war. And I hope all democratic world also will understand that the Russians are crazy and they're not joking. It has to be the strong signal that we need more from all the world. More support and all international institutions has to be scared because this guy can start the war. And of course, we are afraid because if he will start nuclear war, it will be in Ukrainian city and Ukrainian territories. And of course, we want to leave. We don't want to die because one crazy man wants to start the nuclear war.

NK: Doctor, I appreciate your time once again. Please take care.

MF: Okay. Thank you very much. And I thank you very much for your support.

CH: Dr. Mikhail Zagrychuk is a transplant surgeon with the Kyiv Heart Institute. We reached him in Kyiv.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

N.B. Brain Illness Probe

Guest: Susan Holt

CH: New Brunswick's new Liberal government delivered its throne speech today. And as much as she's already got on her plate, incoming Premier Susan Holt has made something clear. There will be a scientific review into the mystery brain disease plaguing dozens and potentially hundreds of people in her province. Three years ago, the previous progressive conservative government launched an investigation after 48 patients, mostly on the Acadian Peninsula and in the Moncton region, showed unexplained neurological decline. Their symptoms ranged from memory loss to muscle spasms and hallucinations. And then things got more complicated. The province convened an oversight committee that quickly concluded most patients suffered from known diseases like Alzheimer's. But a Moncton neurologist disagreed, suggesting something else potentially in the environment might be to blame. The federal government offered help, the province declined and patients and their families were left in the lurch. We reached New Brunswick Premier Susan Holt in Fredericton.

NK: Premier Holt, you have promised this scientific review and to put a finer point on it, a transparent scientific review, as you've said. What might that change for these patients and their families, that, what will they get that they did not receive or find out in previous investigations?

SUSAN HOLT: Well, I think patients right now are feeling like no one cares and no one is listening to them. We care. We want to know what's making them sick and we want to get to the bottom of this. And we don't want to do so behind closed doors, because when you don't have the information you need as a patient, you assume the worst. And that can be really scary. And so we want to make sure that every step in the scientific investigation is clear and communicated to patients and their families. So, that they can be reassured that people are taking this seriously and work is happening to try to get answers to the questions that these patients and that New Brunswickers have.

NK: Moncton neurologist Dr. Alier Marrero originally identified what he believes to be a new disease. He now says it may affect hundreds of people and not just in your province, but across multiple provinces. The doctor has also warned some patients’ blood work, based on his reviews have showed elevated levels of compounds found in herbicides, and he believes more testing should be done to rule out environmental toxins. Is what you're proposing, the review that you're proposing, going to explore that specific possibility as well?

SH: Yes. We need to find out what's making New Brunswickers sick. We need to know whether it's environmental or whether it's coming from herbicides or where it's coming from, period. Because until we know what's making people sick, we can't act against it to prevent more people from getting sick and to save New Brunswickers lives. So we need to get to the bottom of this.

NK: Our CBC News colleagues have certainly investigated this story over the years. In October 2023, federal microbiologist Michael Coltart, who was part of the initial provincial investigation, said in an internal email obtained by CBC News that he was, quote, "essentially cut off" unquote, from working on the file for reasons he could quote, "only discern to be political", unquote, that he believes "something real is going on", as he put it, in New Brunswick. What would you say to New Brunswickers who are skeptical and cynical and believe that politics were at play here, or that there's even some kind of cover up?

SH: Well, I would tell them I can understand why they feel that way. When you have people like Michael Coltart expressing those sorts of feelings, like they've been cut off of an investigation, when you have offers of help coming from the federal government that the provincial government rejects, when you have a government that isn't willing to act, when more and more and more New Brunswickers are finding themselves sick and some were dying, I can understand the cynicism and the skepticism that anything is going to change and that there isn't politics at the base of all of this. And so we want to reassure those folks that we are taking this exceptionally seriously and we want to get to the bottom of this illness and what is making New Brunswickers sick.

NK: Some patients and their families, you may have seen have said or heard. They've said that they have no confidence in New Brunswick's acting Chief Medical Officer of Health, Dr. Yves Léger to lead this investigation. They want the Public Health Agency of Canada to take over entirely. I know you've discussed being open to federal assistance and that five million dollar offer is still on the table from the feds, as I understand it. But do you stand by, Dr. Léger in particular, and his ability to lead this investigation?

SH: Yes, I think Dr. Léger was acting under difficult circumstances in the past where he didn't have support from the previous governments to further an investigation or to take up the offers of help that were there. And so I have confidence that with him and with the federal government's health, through the Public Health Agency of Canada or the Canadian Institute for Health Research. We need all hands on deck. And that includes Dr. Léger's team, who understand New Brunswick and New Brunswickers and who already have a familiarity with some of this data and these cases. We need all hands on deck to try to get answers for New Brunswickers as quickly as possible.

NK: Our listeners heard in the introduction some of the symptoms, and there is quite a range of symptoms. It's quite debilitating for people who develop this. How have you seen these symptoms, this mystery illness impact people in New Brunswick?

SH: Well, I mean, it's impacted a lot of people and in different ways, but it often seems like it's come out of nowhere. I think about a young woman up in the peninsula, the Acadian Peninsula, who, you know, was in full health, fully capable of having an active life, and then slowly started to lose her ability to think clearly, her energy, her ability to come into work. I think about a woman outside of Moncton whose mother was getting more and more frail and losing the ability to feed herself, and she had to watch her mother die. And with no explanation. No explanation of how to treat it or what was causing it. It's really scary and it's really painful. And there's not a lot of answers because it's impacting, it's impacting women and men, young people and older people. It's impacting people in particular geographies. And we don't have answers. And so it's there's a lot of people who are really scared and a lot of people who are struggling with this disease with no sense of hope of how it could be treated or what the path forward is. So it's really it's really tough for the New Brunswickers and their loved ones that are going through this.

NK: Are you worried, Premier, that you're promising ultimately something that you cannot deliver?

SH: I am scared that we won't be able to deliver answers, but we will do everything we can to do, to do the work, to get the answers, to ask the questions, to do the investigation, to gather the data, to talk to the patients and their families, to go out into the field to try to do everything we can to prevent any other New Brunswickers from getting sick.

NK: Premier Holt, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

SH: Thank you, Nil.

CH: Susan Holt is the premier of New Brunswick. We reached her in Fredericton.

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

Death Stairs

Guest: Lane Sutterby

CH: Lane Sutterby knows what makes a good death stair. That's stair is in s-t-a-i-r. In 2020, Mr. Sutter be created a Facebook page for his friends to share photos of stairwells that they'd come across that were particularly sketchy. The page is called Death Stairs, and its tagline is "Where ascension is perilous and descending is deadly". That page has now ascended well beyond his friend group. And has hundreds of thousands of loyal followers around the world, we reached Lane Sutterby in Newton, Kansas.

NK: Lane you're an expert by now. So what are, what is the list of criteria? What are the qualities that make a true death stair?

LANE SUTTERBY: Well, primarily it has to be at least sketchy looking, if not actually sketchy has to be either ridiculously steep step treads, ridiculously shallow, has to be somewhere where it's either a terrain issue that would make it terrifying to walk up or down, slippery steps, something like that. There's a handful of things that make a good sketchy death stair.

NK: Have you fallen down a lot of stairs or do you love, you know, the engineering of staircases? What brought you to the moment where you thought, I'm going to create this page?

LS: Well, I've had my fair share of slips down staircase.

NK: Me to.

LS: In fact, just here the other day in my own house but ironically they're not sketchy at all. So I don't know how that happened, but I suppose it started, the group started as a tag group. For example, when you come across a picture of something on Facebook, say it's a picture of a poorly engineered bedroom. There's a group called "That's it, I'm architecture shaming". And you would, you just tag that group's name in the comment section under that picture. And so that's what it started as it was just something for fun to get a few laughs. I figured, you know, maybe a few of my friends and a handful of strangers would join the group thinking it was amusing. And then here we are, eight hundred and thirty eight thousand members later.

NK: How many?

LS: I think we just crested eight thirty eight.

NK: Eight thirty eight. Everybody has a staircase story. What a [LS: It is truly wild] universally painful and funny theme. But the photos people have shared. I've been looking through some of them. What are some of the [deep breath] the sketchiest ones we could say that that you've seen?

LS: Well, I mean, there's a bunch, but some of my favourites are like ship stairs where they're either going up to an attic or something and they're just it's basically a ladder with slightly deeper steps instead of rungs. [NK: Yeah], I always love the cross tread, I guess you'd call them where it's obvious where you're supposed to put one foot and then the other on the next step. But I feel like I'd get mixed up real easy.

NK: Yeah. I mean, I've stood at the top of stairs that are very steep and sketchy and you talk to yourself like, okay, be careful or I'm going to fall. And then it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy and yeah.

LS: Have to give yourself a pep talk to get up and down.

NK: Well, steepness so clearly, steepness is a factor. But there were others where it was just, you know, the carpet is a crazy pattern and the spacing is extreme or erratic. You know, there are layers to this.

LS: Absolutely. Yeah. Some of my favourites probably honestly, are the ones where the carpet or the tread pattern, whatever it is, blends in to the next steps down and then at the base it blends in. So if you look at it from just the right angle, you can't even tell there's steps there until your face first at the bottom of them.

NK: Have you had instances where people you know, there's a camaraderie, they see a picture and know exactly where that is because they have taken a dive down those steps.

LS: Yeah, absolutely. For some reason, middle of, I guess it was late last year, we started seeing a massive influx of people from the city of Pittsburgh. [Laughter] And it was just, you know, picture after picture of people posting stairs and everybody else recognizing them. Hey, I fell down those once.

NK: And I can hear Montrealer’s here in Canada shouting at their radios right now or looking at the very precarious, you know, iron staircases. They're beautiful to look at. They're really part of the city, right. That the beauty of the city. But they twist and turn. They climb up apartment buildings. They're usually covered at least in the winter in ice and snow. So precarious seems like an understatement, actually. But have you seen, have people submitted from Montreal?

LS: I think there's been a few. We get so many posts a day that it's honestly hard to keep track of.

NK: So, yeah. One of the rules on your site. Be polite, this is just a page about stairs. I mean, are things getting intense in the pursuit of death stairs?

LS: They can, yeah. [NK: Really] Some people get pretty heated, and that rule primarily is in place because. Well, just this morning, for example, we had a post that the comment section turned rather political for some reason. So we're trying to get people to, you know, stay on topic. This is just a page about stairs. We don't care if you like you know, blue or red. It's stairs. Try not to make it something it ain't.

NK: Well, good advice, Lane. Be careful out there.

LS: Absolutely. You too.

NK: Take care.

LS: Thank you.

CH: Lane Sutterby is the creator of the Death Stairs Facebook page. We reached him in Newton, Kansas.

[Music: Horns instrumental]

Lab-Grown Faux Gras

CH: It started as a kind of slurry and it ended as, did you not like the way I said that? [NK laughs]. It ended as a, quote, "lobe-like slice rich and sensuous, but wholly its own, barely tethered to any previous experience", unquote. At least that's according to Washington Post food reporter Tim Carman, who took part in what may well have been the first public guilt free tasting of foie gras. Guilt free because unlike traditional foie gras, no waterfowl were harmed in the production of that sliver of fatty liver. Also, it's not an actual liver. It was grown in a lab from quail cells. Now most lab grown meat companies are placing their bets on your chickens and your beeves. But Vow, the Australian company behind the faux gras, is targeting the high end market "Forged Gras" as they have branded it, which is not as good as faux gras. No offence. Is about to hit the market in Singapore and Hong Kong. Australia will be next and the company already has its lab grown eyes on North America, where it sees an advantage in the fact that so few people have ever tasted the real thing. I guess when it comes to alternative meats, it's a bonus not to have a taste for the original, although Mr. Carman does. And he pointed out to Vows CEO that his product, while buttery and umami packed, wasn't livery, tasting more like foraged mushrooms than actual foie gras, which apparently pleased the CEO mightily. He wants you to know it's not really a birds internal organ. In other words, it's not offal.

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

Part 2: COP Reform, OnlyFans Dogsitter, New York Congestion

COP Reform

Guest: Jayati Ghosh

CH: The push is on to reform global climate talks. COP 29. The annual Global Climate Summit is currently underway in Azerbaijan. The big question as always at this point in the summit is whether the assembled nations and corporations can agree on a next step in the fight against climate change. But a group of global mucky mucks, including former UN Secretary-General Ban Ki Moon, have written a letter calling for a rethink of how the global fight against climate change works. They want the COP process to focus less on negotiation and more on implementation. And the first thing on their to do list making sure climate summits are hosted by countries that are actually committed to fighting climate change. Jayati Ghosh is one of the signatories. She taught development economics in New Delhi for decades before joining the University of Massachusetts Amherst. We reached her in Northampton, Massachusetts.

NK: Professor, I'm wondering, was there a moment or a headline or something you heard? What was it that made you decide to sign this letter?

JAYATI GHOSH: It wasn't a headline. It was a feeling that several of us have had for a while now, that this whole process, the COP process, is going nowhere. And it had a lot of potential. The Paris Agreement was a huge breakthrough. And we all hoped that this would actually reflect, especially now when things are so urgent. But what we found is that these COPs have become meaningless rituals which don't actually deliver anything, and the problems are too urgent and intense for us to keep doing these big summits that don't deliver.

NK: One of the things I took from looking at the letter that you've signed on to, you're saying, you and the others are saying that it's not time to debate and negotiate anymore. It's time to actually implement things. Why is it still at the negotiation phase?

JG: You know, the problem really is the countries come and make these commitments far into the future. So they say by 2050 or 2070, and that lets them off because they're not really promising 'that I will do the following things in the next couple of years'. So what we really need is actionable promises, saying here are the steps I'm going to take next year, the year after that. And then you come back and say, Well, I took those steps or I didn't take those steps for the following reasons. There's no accountability. There's no real roadmap that tells us exactly how we're going to proceed. So we have to move towards more frequent summits with smaller not, you know, lots and lots of these private jets arriving with fossil fuel companies trying to do this ideas. But we need smaller events that are actually focussed on clear promises that will be met.

NK: In a world, you know, in the current world we live in and what you've seen over the decades, but also a world where the United States has just had a seminal election, Donald Trump has been re-elected. We know what he said on this issue in the past. Is there enough agreement to actually work and deliver the kind of implementation you're talking about? And that's just one country, obviously.

JG: Yes. You know, in fact, I've just written an article about this. I think we're overplaying this. Of course, it's bad. It's very bad for the planet. It's bad for climate. I think it's bad for the U.S. But the problem is that the U.S. has never really been the best faith negotiator in the climate process. Remember, the U.S. is now the world's largest fossil fuel producer. It's a net fossil fuel exporter, and its activities in these negotiations, even under different Democrat administrations, has not necessarily been in the multinational interests. It's been in its own national interest.

NK: So this is nothing new in your view?

JG: I'm saying that, you know, even the Biden administration coming back into the Paris agreement and so on, it didn't mean that the U.S. activities on fossil fuel changed a lot. So I don't think it's going to make a huge difference. I think what really matters is how the rest of the world responds.

NK: The letter's very first recommendation is about the countries allowed to preside over the COP process. Is that directed at one country in particular, the current host, Azerbaijan, perhaps, where, you know, our listeners heard earlier on in the summit that the president opened COP 29 by describing oil and gas reserves as a gift from God. I mean, our country relies on that. So was that recommendation targeting Azerbaijan in particular?

JG: Not necessarily only Azerbaijan. We had a series of these COPs now, which is based in fossil fuel countries. Right. And it's open knowledge now that these have become venues for all the fossil fuel companies to do these side deals.

NK: What do you say, though, Professor, to those who argue that the climate process needs to include everyone, even if people who are at COP don't agree with the leadership and the policies of the countries that the summits are being held in, that it needs to be inclusive. Everyone needs to be on board in order for this to actually work.

JG: I agree. I think everybody has to be on board. But I think what's happened now is that these have become performative summits rather than genuine attempts to change. So what we're saying is that if you want to be part of this, prove that you are actually going to be doing something. And I have a feeling that, you know, history isn't really on the side of those who are demanding change. And we're already seeing I mean; the energy transition is ongoing. China and other countries are going ahead with it. More and more countries are going to recognize that this is the future. And for all you know, even the Trump administration, even when it's fixated on getting deals, realized that it can't afford to be left behind.

NK: Do I hear optimism in that? I mean, it's a bit of a juxtaposition to what you were saying about your concerns about the summit. You know, you used the word meaningless performative. But I think I heard optimism there.

JG: That's right. I think there is optimism because I believe that the ultimate trust has got to be towards a green, a just green energy transition. It's not going to happen easily. I think there are huge vested interests against it. But on the other hand, it is happening. So despite the fact that these are performative summits, despite the fact that these are just now literally meaningless rituals and developing countries are not getting the finance and the technology that they need for their transition, there is a kind of momentum that is going to be hard to ignore in the future.

NK: You're a veteran of multiple United Nations and other global bodies. You're a professor, as we've said. You know, I wonder when people hear that you say this is, these summits don't really matter, people at home listening who might already be tuning out anyway. What do you want them to take away from our conversation?

JG: I'm saying that these summits, the fact that they don't matter is a tragedy. We have to make them matter. And the only way we can do that is by putting pressure on our own governments to force them to make commitments that are accountable and to deliver on those promises. So we are allowing these summits to become meaningless. It's up to people to force the transformation.

NK: Professor, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

JG: Thank you.

CH: Jayati Ghosh is a professor of economics at the University of Massachusetts Amherst. We reached her in Northampton, Massachusetts.

[Music: Chimes instrumental]

OnlyFans Dogsitter

CH: When Amanda Joudrey Le Blanc hired someone to look after her dogs, she did not expect her home to be used for adult only content. So when she saw a TikTok ad for the website, OnlyFans and recognized her bathroom and swimming pool, she was, let's say, surprised. The content has now been taken down. But Ms. Joudrey Le Blanc told CBC Halifax that she still can't believe it happened to begin with.

SOUNDCLIP

AMANDA JOUDREY LE BLANC: I don't even remember how it all sort of, it was a couple of weeks ago and everything sort of all just came at once. A TikTok account was public and there were some spicy content there with hashtags, to other spicy pages, a bunch of people all at the same time it was within days had found, this had come up on their For You page or whatever and scrolled and then looked at the hashtags and looked up the names and that and got contacted. And is that not your house? Is that not your pool? And I'm like, it is. And this was all public. It was publicly available. I was speechless for days and sort of paced around, not sure what to do or how to handle this situation. I'm a major germophobe. Like when I stay at hotels, I always have my big Lysol can and I Lysol everything before I even go in the room. Like that's just who I am. So I just was in a bit of shock. So when I found out, I reached out to them and I said I wanted all content removed. The explicit videos, photos and also anything that, my dogs were used to promote the business because I didn't want to be associated anymore. I had recommended this business a lot and I just was completely mortified by the whole thing. In this day and age, regardless of who you have coming in your house for whatever reason, like whether it's a housekeeper or, you know, even keeping your children, this is, I guess, something we have to be mindful of nowadays that, you know, are you going to be creating content? You know, it's one thing to be asked, and I would have absolutely said no, but I should have, everyone should be given the option to say yes or no as far as I'm concerned. It's not like this person rented an Airbnb and had control of the place. Like this person was paid to do a job in people's homes that we trust them to be in and trust them to respect our homes and trust them to respect our privacy, etc... And so it just feels kind of, for lack of a better term violating. You know, everyone can do whatever they want. I don't care. People have to make money. People like to do that. Good on them. That's on you. I just don't want it done in my home.

CH: That was Amanda Joudrey Le Blanc talking to Celina Aalders of CBC Halifax.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

New York Congestion

Guest: Tiffany-Ann Taylor

CH: It looks like Manhattan will be getting a congestion charge after all. The new tax on drivers was originally set to start in June before New York Governor Kathy Hochul called it down, saying it would be too expensive. But this week, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority Board approved a revised plan that brings the cost for most drivers down from 15 dollars to 9 dollars. The toll is set to be implemented in January, right before a prominent New Yorker returns to the White House. Tiffany-Ann Taylor is the vice president for transportation at the Regional Plan Association, a local non-profit group that supports congestion pricing. We reached her in New York.

NK: Tiffany-Ann the U.S. president-elect has promised in the past to kill congestion pricing during his first week in office. Even with this decision from New York's governor, does that fact worry you?

TIFFANY-ANN TAYLOR: No, it doesn't worry me as much, I think, as one would expect. Folks have to remember that the congestion pricing policy is being implemented based on law. This is as a result of the 2019 Traffic Mobility Act that was passed for New York State back then. And so the program being implemented is really just carrying out the letter of the law.

NK: It's not the 15 dollars that was initially discussed. It's 9 dollars. Does that worry you? That's a big difference.

TAT: It is a big difference. But you know what, I think if we had started out in the beginning perhaps and said 9 dollars, we would still be supportive because it is an additional charge. At the end of the day, even though it is less, it is still dedicated. And what will be predictable revenue for the MTA's capital program. And that's something that we desperately need. And I think this also sets a precedent that we can look to have creative ideas to solve longstanding problems. And that longstanding problem was finding dedicated funding for the MTA.

NK: It certainly is not a done deal, as you know. New Jersey's governor, Phil Murphy, is opposed to this, is fighting this in court. The New York Trucking Association is fighting this in court as well. So, you know, let's talk about the amount of the fee, first of all. Is decreasing it to 9 dollars going to be enough to assuage the concerns of commuters in particular who are concerned about affordability?

TAT: I can hope that that is the case. I do want to remind your listeners that the idea is that it will be phased reaching net 15 dollars over time. So the 9 dollars is to start, and I think it's exactly as you described, to get folks comfortable with the idea of paying an additional fee and then having folks decide if they want to make a trip via public transportation instead or be willing to pay that additional cost. And then over time, we will start to see that the charge will make its way up to 15 dollars.

NK: And what about, you know, trucking companies, smaller ones in particular? So they're saying, you know, this it would be about 20 dollars per trip in and out of the city, and that could add up for a smaller company, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars.

TAT: Right, Right. Yeah. So, you know, to be clear, the 9 dollars that we were talking about previously is really for passenger vehicles. And you're correct in that for commercial vehicles, it is higher. I would want to say that there are additional benefits to the smaller and midsize businesses as well as part of the program. There still is a 75 per cent reduction in the toll charge in the overnight hours that existed under the 15 dollar plan and still exist under the 9 dollar plan. So if there's an opportunity to switch to off peak delivery, they'll save money there. There is money as part of the mitigation package for congestion pricing to incentivize businesses to participate in that off hours program. There's also additional money going to the New York City Clean Trucks Program, which is a program that helps fleets change over to hybrid or electric vehicles and hopes that, you know, they'll save money over time in terms of maintenance and additional costs from using trucks fuelled by fossil fuels like gas. And then also there is a direct benefit to their employees if employees of these businesses are using public transportation to get to their jobs. They will see, you know, improved service on public transportation. And then lastly, there will be less congestion in the streets. And hopefully that means more efficient business is being done during the peak hours, which is an overall benefit for all business.

NK: You mentioned, you know, that this money will help the MTA. Where will people see that money, you know, on the trains or their commute?

TAT: Yeah, in a bunch of places. So one is the upgrade to the signalling system called CBTC and that's a system that helps figure out where the trains are, makes them run more efficiently so that, you know, folks can get on their way much faster and much safer. Also, more money toward station improvements that are capital or construction related. Only about a quarter of our subway system is ADA accessible, so the money from congestion pricing will go towards making those types of improvements. The MTA will also be able to buy more hybrid and electric buses and also be able to retrofit corresponding bus depots to be able to run maintenance on said buses. And so those are just, those are a few things that folks will be able to both see and feel as a benefit to the congestion pricing charge.

NK: So we'll see if that gets New Yorkers on boards, so to speak. But I wonder, you know, that lack of congestion, the New York that you were describing when this comes into play is not in New York, but that even non New Yorkers can envision. Do you think New Yorkers are going to get used to this kind of tax and that they will, you know, agree with it and be pleased in the end?

TAT: I think so. I think when things are new for the first time, they're uncomfortable, They're unfamiliar. But I want to remind your listeners that we've done new and uncomfortable things in the past. There was a time where there was a fight right over pedestrian plazas being created in Times Square, and now it's something that folks are really excited about and has been replicated across the city and other parts of the country. More recently, the Brooklyn Bridge has been retrofitted to take away a lane of traffic heading into Manhattan, and that has been completely repurposed for a dedicated and protected bike lane as well. And that has been proven to be really successful and has allowed folks to make a safer commute and allowed pedestrians to travel safely by walking across the bridge in their dedicated space. Those are just a couple of examples of things that felt new or were scary or perhaps uncomfortable and that we've grown to love as a city.

NK: I bet you there are still some New Yorkers complaining about all of those things you mentioned. [laughter] Or is that just part of the ethos of being a city dweller?

TAT: I think so. I think also New Yorkers love to complain. You know, even if it's sunny, somebody is complaining that the sun is shining too bright. What are you going to do? [laughter].

NK: Tiffany-Ann, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

TAT: No problem. I'm happy to be here. Thank you.

CH: Tiffany-Ann Taylor is the vice president for transportation at the Regional Plan Association. We reached her in New York.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Part 3: Wooden Satellite, SOD: Aztec Death Whistle, Richard III Voice, 11-Pound Pizza, CJFE Integrity Award

Wooden Satellite

CH: You know, this really suggests that the rocket I built at a popsicle sticks actually could have made it to orbit. But it also explains why my method of getting it to space, throwing it up in the air as hard as I could failed. Hey, in my defence I'm not an engineer and I was only 34 at the time. Anyway, this month, Japanese scientists sent the world's first wooden satellite to the International Space Station, and from there it will be sent into orbit. And then we'll see what happens to the little guy, which is made from the wood of a magnolia tree and about the size of a Rubik's cube. If a Rubik's cube were slightly too big. Aaron Boley is the co-director of the Outer Space Institute in Vancouver. He told the CBC that it's about time we found a more sustainable alternative for making satellites.

SOUNDCLIP

AARON BOLEY: Plants are going to be an important part of kind of humanity moving forward with space exploration. We are fundamentally changing our relationship with outer space. I say it that way because we have this great expansion. We're already really dependent on satellites and that dependency is only growing. But with that comes increased activities. And with those increased activities means more resource demands and more environmental considerations that need to be taken into account. And so people are looking for different solutions that can help, you know, both meet the demands of the growth as well as lessen the various impacts that we're becoming more and more aware of as a result of this expansion into space and what may be part of that.

CAROLINA DE RYK: And when you said the word impact, I immediately started thinking about space junk. These pieces of metal, right, from other satellites. How do you think that wood or plant resources can possibly reverse that trend?

AARON BOLEY: Well, one of the things that were happening now, that's happening now is that a lot of the satellites that are being put up are just kind of being treated like with an electronic, the consumer electronic model. So they have short lifetimes, they're obsoleted quickly, they're replaced, and then they need to be brought down back to Earth in order to maintain a safe operational environment in outer space. But that means either you just let it fall and crash somewhere on Earth, or you design it to oblate entirely in the atmosphere. And for safety concerns, they're being designed to oblate, which just is a fancy word for burning up in the upper atmosphere. [CR: Okay.] And what that's doing is it's depositing a lot of materials that are not naturally found in the upper atmosphere in the quantities that we're putting in there. And it's changing the chemical composition of the upper atmosphere. And this has, this changes the chemical composition of the aerosols in the upper atmosphere, which are important part of Earth's climate system. It can deplete ozone. And there's a lot of unknowns at the moment because this is just, we're realizing how big of an impact we're actually having on the upper atmosphere. And so one of the questions is can we swap out the materials and or at least have a range of materials so we don't have as large of an impact.

CH: Aaron Boley of the Outer Space Institute in Vancouver, talking to Carolina de Ryk, host of Daybreak North. The satellite is scheduled to stay in orbit for six months with the electronic components on board measuring how wood endures the extreme environment of space.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

SOD: Aztec Death Whistle

CH: It's been described as sounding somewhere between a spooky gust of whistling wind and the scream of a thousand corpses, which is admittedly a pretty wide lane. But I'd say it leans firmly toward the scream of a thousand corpses end of the spectrum. The Aztec Death Whistle is a skull shaped clay instrument that is believed to have been used in rituals in the 12 to 15 hundreds, although it's since been widely replicated, spreading its terrifying sound far and wide. So with a word of warning and remembering how only just seconds ago I told you about the whole scream of a thousand corpses thing. Here is the sound of the Aztec Death Whistle.

SOUNDCLIP

Aztec Death Whistle.

CH: I apologize. We bring you the sound of the Aztec Death Whistle because we have news to share about its effects on the human brain. News that you will really want to know before hearing it again. [plays Aztec Death Whistle sound] I apologize for that one too. It seems like someone in the studio might have a little bit of an itchy death whistle finger. [plays sound again] And that one might have been on purpose. Anyway, okay. Neuroscientists at the University of Zurich set out to unlock the secrets of the Aztec Death Whistle. They compared it to other sounds and determined it was a high pitched scream like sound that human beings instinctively associate with danger. In other words, it sounds like the scream of a thousand corpses. [Aztec Death Whistle again] Yeah, like that. The Zurich researchers further investigated its effects by monitoring the neural systems of those who heard it. Using MRI readings to determine that the Aztec Death Whistle inspired fear and negative emotional responses. Or, in the words of the lead scientist, quote, "The sound is rough and high pitched. And as listeners, you usually do not like such sounds", to which we can only say thank you for your insight lead scientist. And may we never hear the Aztec Death Whistle again after this because it's our Sound of the Day.

SOUNDCLIP

Aztec Death Whistle.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

CH: A quick weights and measures related correction for you now. If you were listening to last night's program, you might have heard Nil's conversation with Dr. Fola David, a Nigerian artist who has created the world's largest drawing done by an individual. As you can read right now at CBC.ca/aih, Dr. David spent six days creating a work of art that measures 1004.7 square metres, absolutely shattering the previous record of just under 630 square metres. It's a truly phenomenal accomplishment that requires no embellishment. So there was no reason for us to go the extra square mile and describe his drawing as a square kilometre in size. Our apologies for the mistake. Unless one of you heard that and got working on a square kilometre drawing, in which case please get in touch with us when you're done.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

Richard III Voice

Guest: Yvonne Morley-Chisholm

SOUNDCLIP

AI VOICE RICHARD III: We're therefore following in the footsteps of our ancestors. And with the assent and advice of the side Prelates, Dukes and Barons of Orium of England I've determined to honour our dearest firstborn son Edward.

CH: And the man you just heard speaking died in 1485. Which, of course, means you didn't actually hear him speaking. What you heard was his digital avatar, which is now on display at New York Theatre Royal in the U.K. King Richard the third, reigned for just two years in England before being killed in battle at the age of 32. And after his remains were found under a parking lot in 2012, Yvonne Morley-Chisholm had an unusual thought. There might be a way to find out how he had sounded. She's an expert vocal coach who had the idea of recreating the voice and who has helped actors recreate it as well. We reached Yvonne Morley-Chisholm in Newby, England.

NK: Yvonne, you spent a decade working on this. In the end, did the King's voice turn out as you'd imagined?

YVONNE MORLEY-CHISHOLM: In the end, it went above and beyond what I did hope for. And a key part of that is the pronunciation and the expert, Professor David Crystal, an internationally renowned linguist specializing in original pronunciation. When we started, I, I hoped maybe 20, 30 per cent, but he achieved over 90 per cent accuracy.

NK: I want to talk about that work and the team work involved. But if we go back to the beginning, the moment that sparked this idea, you were at a dinner party. There's others in your field, this gives us a bit of insight into people in your field as well. What happened at that party?

YMC: Yeah, well, we were on a weekend away, and these are medical people, scientists and voice coaches like myself. We all focusing on voice. And we met in the city of Leicester that particular year and they asked me to provide an after dinner speaker and entertainment. And I thought, Leicester, what am I going to do in Leicester? Oh, didn't they just find somebody under the car park, the parking lot. And then I saw that Professor Caroline Wilkinson had reconstructed his face, at which point I got very excited. I thought, we have muscles, we know something of this person and he has a nice face. That's what I learned about in history. So it started there.

NK: So how do you begin to make sure you're accurate in something like this? Can what you found there, those muscles and then your other research really give you a conclusive answer?

YMC: Well, we're never going to know 100 per cent for sure. But I am amazed over 10 years how far we've come. For example, there is a specialist in France who can predict the likely pitch range of voice from the skeleton. I mean, I didn't think we were going to do that. And then we've got the linguist with the 90 per cent pronunciation accuracy working very closely with Caroline Wilkinson at Face Lab. I've asked her which muscles do we know for sure? Like, for example, the corners of his mouth, the corners of people's mouths in rest positions sometimes turn down. Mostly they do. With King Richard, they don't in rest position with no expression it's a pleasant smile on his face. Now, you know, we pull different faces and our voices sound different. Like I'm frowning right now or I'm smiling right now. And so those muscles began to also feed in and give another clue. But I sat down and thought what are all the pieces I need? Where do we need to go? So, wow. Dentistry, physiotherapy, ear, nose, throat consultancy, forensic psychology to look at the personality of the real man. It goes on and on. I'm grateful to a large group of experts at this point in time who helped put the clues together.

NK: And once you press play and when you have that complete audio and that picture, that video as well, what is everyone in the team saying in those moments?

YMC: Well, we're really, really pleased. We look back and think we've done our best. I mean, the big find was the actor Thomas Dennis, because we needed a man with a face similar to King Richard's face to sit with the motion capture technology and drive King Richard's avatar face.

NK: How did he feel about taking on such a prominent role?

YMC: Well, he was, the word he uses is honoured. He knew something of the real King Richard, and he has felt quite overwhelmed to be chosen. It was a long process finding him. I was looking for 10 years for him and we just found him this year.

NK: Where did you find him?

YMC: We put a casting call out and that was hilarious because, you know, you describe that this is about measurement, it's not about how good an actor somebody is. We had 300 videos to watch of 300 actors, and many of them did not have a face remotely like what we needed. But messages kept coming, "he's a good actor". So, we're going, no, no, no, this is science driven. And it was an extraordinary moment when I thought, we've actually got him. Wow, we can do this now.

NK: You know, you mentioned he felt honoured to be chosen. It speaks to obviously the history, King Richard's history, the prominence that has outlasted certainly his reign, his short reign. Why do you think that, that legend legacy history still holds? Has the kind of grip that it does?

YMC: It's a really interesting question because he is, it's polarized. People still either love him or hate him. You can't argue with the skeleton, you know, and you realize that people have given more credence to Shakespeare's play than they should have done. And then in Shakespeare's defence, there are clues in that play where he is signalling, look, I'm not writing history. He's very good at fleshing out characters and his Hamlet, his Henry the fifths. These are people with layers and levels of emotion. And Richard doesn't have any of that. He is a melodramatic caricature.

NK: So in reality, not the hunchback villain that Shakespeare portrays?

YMC: No. No hunchback in the spine of the real Richard. There's a Scoliosis, which is a sideways band. But hey, Usain Bolt has that Olympic champion, the late Queen Elizabeth the second has it. And so basically, looking at all of this, we have a chance to look at the real person and more, more people in the future. We've got this new science together now, this new collaboration. We could do this with other people, too.

NK: As you use this technology for this and again, in the future, as you've said. What do you hope that viewers and listeners, not just history buffs, take away from what you're uncovering?

YMC: I hope that we will consider that sometimes there are people that do incredible research, some historians it's kind of the version told by the winning side as people say, and history is not necessarily the past. And we have a chance to go into the past with somebodies mortal remains, you know, getting deep inside somebodies, what I call the inner voice, the intentions and attitudes and so on.

NK: Yvonne, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you.

YMC: Thank you.

CH: Yvonne Morley-Chisholm is a vocal coach and voice teacher who started the project of recreating the voice of King Richard the third who lived in the 15th century. We reached her in Newby, England.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

11-Pound Pizza

CH: Scott Watkins just did something that was never done before at Double R Pizza in Clearwater, B.C., he ate an 11 pound pizza in one sitting. Mr. Watkins is an electrical instructor, but he's also a competitive eater known as Scott Eats on Social media. And yet, knowing of his prowess, the pizza place still challenged him to eat that entire disturbingly heavy pie, prize money 250 dollars. Here's what he told the CBC about the challenge this morning.

SOUNDCLIP

SCOTT WATKINS: It was, it sure was a massive piece. I didn't know how an 18 inch pizza could come out at 11 pounds, but it did. Craig weighed everything right in front of me, and it was a really good challenge and a fantastic restaurant and even a great turnout.

SHELLEY JOYCE: Did you do it? Did you eat the whole thing?

SCOTT WATKINS: I did it, yes. Yeah, I did it in 29 minutes and I believe it was like 49 seconds. I had an hour to do it and I got it done.

SHELLEY JOYCE: Now, did you taste the thing or was it just a matter of shoving it down?

SCOTT WATKINS: No, I definitely, definitely tasted it. It was kind of a combination between the two. I'm not gonna lie. It's not always pretty when I'm eating, but I definitely tasted it and it was great. The combination of all the flavours together, I think it was around 12 toppings, so it was really well cooked. And I was actually surprised because it was so thick, probably like four inches thick, I would say. Usually it doesn't get cooked nicely inside, but they did a wonderful job and it helped it go down nice and easy.

SHELLEY JOYCE: Did you have to train for this?

SCOTT WATKINS: I always train for this, believe it or not. Yeah.

SHELLEY JOYCE: So how do you do that?

SCOTT WATKINS: I can... Well, at work, what I do is I'll have my regular lunch, which is kind of a larger lunch, probably a couple of pounds, and then I'll have a gallon of electrolyte water, and I chug that within a minute, right after I have my lunch. And I do that six days a week and then one day a week I either go for a buffet or I'll do a challenge like I did yesterday. That's kind of my average type of training week for you.

CH: That was Scott Watkins speaking to Shelley Joyce, the host of Daybreak Kamloops this morning.

CJFE Integrity Award

Guest: Larry Weinstein

SOUNDCLIP

Ukrainian Freedom Orchestra performing Beethoven's Ninth Symphony in Ukrainian.

CH: Ukrainian Freedom Orchestra performing Beethoven's Ninth Symphony in their native Ukraine. The orchestra's director, Keri-Lynn Wilson, says that represents the bravery of her country and its people. And it's one of many astonishing acts captured in the documentary "Beethoven's Nine: Ode to Humanity". The film is screening tonight at an event in Toronto where its creator, Larry Weinstein, will be honoured with the Canadian Journalists for Free Expression Integrity Award. Over the years, Mr. Weinstein has made dozens of films, but this is the first time he appears on screen in one of them. And as you're about to hear, he did so for reasons no one could have anticipated.

SOUNDCLIP

LARRY WEINSTEIN: I was on a phone call with my sister Andrea, with the Israeli intelligence and they told us that they have evidence now that my brother in law, Gadi, is most certainly deceased. And so is Judih. So is my sister Judih, which we had been hoping that, that was not the case. But maybe deep inside, we knew all along that she did not survive October 7th.

CH: Canadian filmmaker Larry Weinstein, speaking about his sister's likely death in his new documentary, "Beethoven's Nine: Ode to Humanity'. Judih is believed to have been killed by Hamas militants on October 7th, along with her husband, Gadi Haggai. That revelation changed Larry Weinstein's latest film dramatically. But it also didn't because the movie and its maker remained focussed on everything he says, Beethoven's Ninth represents humanity above all. We reached Mr. Weinstein in Toronto.

NK: Larry, what is it about this particular piece of music that guided you through the making of this film, but also through this very personal and deep loss?

LARRY WEINSTEIN: Yeah. I mean, this piece of music is packed with meaning, and it's something which inspired Beethoven very much towards the end of his life. He had heard the poem or he had read the poem by Friedrich Schiller when he was young. He knew he wanted to set it to music one day. The world was a better place. There was full, it was full of enlightenment ideals. And when I say that, I mean things where, people believed in progress and they believed in humanism and they believed in science and they believed in reason. But then eventually those things broke down. And that's when he chose to write this piece of music as a love letter, I believe, a love letter to humanity and a love letter to the future. And I thought, I need, I need this piece in my life right now because I'm going to get very emotional. There's something about the meaning of it that carried me through. It couldn't have been more amazing, the serendipity of these terrible events happening. But while making a film about this and about optimism, about enlightenment. So I use that as a crutch.

NK: You had the option, I know, from the producers to step away from this project entirely. [LW: Yes.] And then on top of that, there was the decision to say what you wanted to say and maybe didn't want to say, but felt it was important to say. Why did you decide to stay on the project?

LW: Well, I actually initially thought the project would be a kind of therapy for me just to keep going, to keep working rather than fall into some abyss. But it was actually my cameraman, John Min Tran, who said, Larry, I have this idea and you're going to hate it. To turn the camera on you, to have you as part of the film. In fact, for you to become the ninth character of the Beethoven Nine, it's like Ocean's 11, Beethoven's Nine. And for you to, you know, talk about the things that have happened. But because I have been interviewing people in Ukraine, we, I spoke to them about war and about suffering and about their own personal trauma. So even though I didn't want to do this, I thought, yeah, he's right. I've got to do this sort of as my own love letter to my sister and yeah, to humanity. I just sort of got into that Beethovian frame of mind as well.

NK: How could you not being surrounded by it and the philosophies that come with it and the meaning so, so deeply embedded in it. You know, our listeners heard that, that you're receiving the CJFE's Integrity Award for 2024. In its commendation the CJFE says it is giving you the integrity award this year because, quote, how Larry embraced Beethoven's Ninth and its call to humanity serves as an inspiration in helping us once again to talk, to once again listen, and ultimately to not allow hate into our hearts, unquote. You know, what is it like to hear that about yourself?

LW: Well, when I was told that this was going to happen, I just felt very unworthy and fraudulent, as we often do when we get accolades. But I guess, you know, it is true that I am trying to push away the hatred, the darkness, which so many people are absorbing and I hate dehumanization of either side. Whether it's, you know, Palestine or, and Israel and Ukraine and Russia. I just think that humans are humans and we have to love one another, embrace one another. So and I think everybody in the film has higher values and I... And Beethoven. And so this is for Beethoven, let's say it that way and I'm less embarrassed.

NK: Well, I might, this might embarrass you a little bit more, but I will ask the CJFE also writes, this award goes to quote, an individual or individuals who have acted courageously in the public interest and in doing so risked reprisals, unquote. Have you risked, you know, reprisals or do you feel like that you've put yourself out there in a way that it is risky because of your approach to your work in general, but specifically this project at this time?

LW: Well, you know, ironically, I... There was another scene in the film for a while. It was actually when I was interviewed by Adrienne Arsenault at the CBC and that went to air. And it's the only time I was accused of being a self-hating Jew. And I'm trying to explain, no, I'm not self-hating. I hate people like Netanyahu and Putin and Trump. It was a, it's a surprise. My entire family, my mother, 96 year old mother, my wife, my two daughters, my sister, my like, we can't fault people. We can't fault, you know, people in Palestine, Hamas, even. I mean, they have been, I made, a film of propaganda. I understand how people's minds can be fed certain things. And like we just always talked about ethics. We always talked about integrity. We always talked about taking the high road. And so I guess it was there. But I didn't like, I don't like the people who murdered my sister, don't get me wrong. But I have to understand other human beings to get through life.

NK: As much as you're comfortable sharing, Larry, what do you want people who are watching your documentary, but listening to this conversation as well, to take away from all of this about your sister and how you want her to be remembered?

LW: Well, she was a, you're going to make me cry. She was a very gentle soul who taught meditation when there were bomb attacks coming over because she only lived two kilometres from Gaza. So whenever there were attacks, she would take go down to the safe room and teach young children about meditation. But she loved her Gazan neighbours. She loved, she and Gadi, her husband would go for walks and they would always go near the wall or when the wall was there, they would sort of show solidarity to your brethren. And so they were very peace loving. And she used to teach Palestinian children with Israeli children about love and peace and acceptance and progress. And so she became sort of a symbol of enlightenment for me. And there she is with her husband still in Gaza, buried, hidden.

NK: Larry, I'm so sorry for your loss, your family's loss, but I thank you so much for your time.

LW: Thank you so much, Nil, for speaking with me.

NK: Please take care.

LW: You, too.

CH: Larry Weinstein is the filmmaker behind "Beethoven's Nine: Ode to Humanity" and the winner of the CGFE's 2024 Integrity Award. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music: Theme]

CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

[Music: Theme]

The AIH Transcript For November 19, 2024

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