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The AIH Transcript for November 12, 2024

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NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Trade secrets. Ontario's premier is musing about kicking Mexico out of the North American Free Trade pact. So we'll ask Ontario's trade Minister what else the province is contemplating as Donald Trump's second term approaches.

CH: Supply and demands. A month ago, the U.S. warned Israel to increase aid to Gaza or risk losing military support. But that deadline has come and gone. While aid organizations decry some of the worst conditions they've seen yet.

NK: Dark times. A woman in Quito is expecting yet another power cut tonight but tells us she refuses to get used to the regular blackouts Ecuador's government is imposing.

CH: Eviction notice. As Donald Trump builds a team to crack down on immigration. A politician in a diverse suburb outside of Denver tells us his community is preparing to defend human rights.

NK: Data re-entry. A NASA physicist tells us a space probes original flyby 40 years ago didn't quite fly with him. And after reviewing the data, he says everything we know about Uranus might be wrong.

CH: Everything I know about it? And first among equines. After decades of being sidelined, My Little Pony is finally inducted into New York's National Toy Hall of Fame, righting one of the most egregious toy related injustices of all time. As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that hoped the inductee would comment but heard it was a little horse.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Ford Free Trade, Ecuador Power Cuts, Uranus Discoveries, FOA: My Little Pony Hall Of Fame

Ford Free Trade

Guest: Vic Fedeli

CH: Today, a provincial premier got into continental politics and with Donald Trump destined for the White House. Ontario Premier Doug Ford took aim at Canada's other North American trading partner.

SOUNDCLIP

DOUG FORD: You look at Mexico. They're importing cheap products, undercutting our hard working men and women, not only here but in the U.S. from China. They're slapping a 'Made in Mexico' sticker on and shipping it up and taking our hardworking men and women jobs away from them. Unacceptable. So what I'm proposing to the federal government, we do a bilateral trade deal with the U.S. And if Mexico wants a bilateral trade deal with Canada, God bless them.

CH: Ontario Premier Doug Ford floating the idea of kicking Mexico out of the North American Free Trade Pact known as CUSMA, unless it matches Canadian and American tariffs on Chinese imports. The current free trade agreement negotiated during Donald Trump's previous term, has to be revised beginning in 2026, or it will expire after 10 years. Vic Fedeli is Ontario's Minister of Economic Development, Job Creation and Trade. We reached him in Corbeil, Ontario.

NK: Minister Fedeli, why is the Ontario government picking a fight with Mexico right now?

VIC FEDELI: Well, because Mexico has allowed itself to become a backdoor for cheap Chinese cars and parts and other products, and it really puts not only Canadian but American workers livelihoods at risk. That's really what it's all about.

NK: But as you as you well know, sir, the new U.S. administration and the U.S. president-elect is promising deep tariffs. That would certainly impacts Ontarian businesses and Canadians as a whole. So why not focus on that right now?

VF: Well, because the back door for Chinese cars is tariff jumping. It's also called a trans-shipment. And President-elect Donald Trump has said ending Chinese trans-shipment is one of his top priorities when he reviews the U.S., Mexico, Canada agreement. And so we're taking a lead in this to say that free trade needs to be fair. And Mexico has allowed itself to be this backdoor for Chinese cars and it's just absolutely has to end.

NK: What would you say to Canadian business owners, Ontario business owners who have businesses that operate in the U.S. as well as Mexico and of course, Canada, who are alarmed to hear you say this or hear the premier say this?

VF: Well, we've heard firsthand in Washington when we were there in September, we promised that we would have their back. They are a 500 billion dollar trading partner, the largest trading partner we have. We are the United States third largest trading partner. So when we do 500 billion dollars’ worth of business with the U.S., we do 40 billion dollars in Mexico, to give you just an idea of the scale. Mexico is the U.S.'s Largest trading partner, followed by China, followed by Ontario. But here Mexico is all one way into the States. China is one way into the States. U.S., Ontario is literally split 50/50. We are each other's strong trading partners.

NK: What would it mean, though, what the premier is proposing here? For you know, I'm thinking mining companies, agricultural workers that come into this country overall, all of those kinds of businesses, surely even if they want a better deal, they would be worried by what you're proposing and would be opposed to it.

VF: Well, what we're asking that if Mexico wants a seat at the table, they need to end the trans shipments of Chinese vehicles. That's what we're talking about. We're not talking about all the rest of those things. We're saying at the very least, Mexico should match the Canadian and U.S. tariffs on Chinese imports. And Premier Ford led that by contacting the feds and asking them to match the U.S. tariffs on Chinese imports, which they did. Then the premier asked that we match the federal, the U.S. federal goal to ban Chinese software and hardware for EVs and for connected vehicles. And that's, we're still pushing for that. But now the third step in all of this is to close this backdoor.

NK: But you're saying, you know, kicking them out of the agreement and just focusing on a bilateral trade agreement that affects everything.

VF: Yeah, but if Mexico has not met the spirit of the agreement whatsoever, and they could at the very least match those tariffs that we're putting on. And they need to show that they want to be part of that agreement, the NAFTA agreement. And the only way to do that is in Chinese trans shipments. You know, again, President- elect Trump has said that ending Chinese trans shipments will be his top priority in that review. So we've got to protect our Canadian jobs. And, you know, reminder that Ontario is the only province in the country that actually manufactures automobiles. We have five carmakers here in Ontario, and it's our job, premiers job to stand up for Ontario workers and to make sure we get the best deal for Ontario's workers.

NK: Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland is office communications director, in a statement to CBC News said that this is an issue they're concerned about as well, that action is necessary to level the playing field for Canadian workers in the face of China's intentional state directed policy of overcapacity, unquote. Is part of what that statement said. Prime Minister Trudeau, as you may have heard, says that all of our partner democracies around the world are expressing varying degrees of concern about Chinese overcapacity and that they're working on it as well. But he also said that they were going to continue to work with partners like the United States and hopefully Mexico as well. So are you prepared to work with him, Prime Minister Trudeau?

VF: Well, while we stand up for Ontario's workers and, you know, no partner in the NAFTA 2.0, as I call it, should allow itself to be used as a backdoor for Chinese trans shipments, that's the whole issue. It undercuts Canadian and U.S. workers when they do that.

NK: The current trade deal is set to be reside, revised rather, in 2026. Again, why raise this issue right now one week after the election? I know you've talked about going on a charm offensive and speaking to U.S. officials and you have a visit coming up in December. Is this really more about Minister, matching Donald Trump's tone and language to try to get onside with him rather than really standing up for Ontarians and Ontario businesses?

VF: Well, absolutely not. This is all about standing up for Ontario workers. Again, we've invested billions and all of this is at risk when the president-elect has identified what his biggest issue is. And we have said that we will stand shoulder to shoulder with our largest trading partner. Think about this, we are the number one trading partner to 17 states where the number two trading partner to 11 more states. This is critical that we work in absolute sync with the U.S., our largest trading partner.

NK: I appreciate your time, Minister Fedeli. Thank you.

VF: Thank you.

CH: Vic Fedeli is Ontario's Minister of Economic Development, Job Creation and Trade. He's in Corbeil, Ontario.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Ecuador Power Cuts

Guest: Estefania Arregui

CH: During the day yesterday, Estefania Arregui only had power at her house in Ecuador for about five hours. And when we spoke with her this afternoon, she was expecting the power to be cut again tonight. The Quito resident has been dealing with these issues for months and she's hardly the only one. People across Ecuador have been facing government power cuts as the hydroelectric power reliant country deals with an electricity crisis amid a drought. Estefania Arregui is a cultural manager and university film teacher. We reached her in Quito.

NK: Estefania, at this point, I wonder how you react when you're sitting at home and the power goes out yet again.

ESTEFANIA ARREGUI: It's very frustrating. You know, I try to keep it calm, but it's becoming very, very nerve wracking and yeah, frustrating. It makes me angry, honestly. I'm somebody who is not getting used to it because I refuse to get used to it. I don't think I should get used to this new normalcy where, where the government is not providing us from very basic things.

NK: And just give our listeners a sense of, you know, how it happens, what time of day, and then when does it come back at night? What does your day look like?

EA: So it actually depends on where you live, it's divided by zones. So for me, these week, like Monday and Tuesday and also tomorrow, I will have power from 1 p.m. to 6 p.m. and that's it. The rest of the day I don't have any power. But it depends. Like there are some weeks that it's different and some days that it's different and sometimes they will tell you a schedule and then they will change it. Like from I don't know. We go to sleep knowing that tomorrow we won't have power from one hour to another. And then we wake up and everything has changed. So it's very confusing, actually.

NK: So you get some warning, but it's not necessarily reliable warnings.

EA: It's not reliable. I know a lot of people who have been like trapped in elevators because they think the power will still go on from another hour and they actually cut the power before what was announced. So, yeah, it's chaos.

NK: So this I mean, this is more than an inconvenience, obviously. So you have to build your life around, as much as you can, when you're going to have power, when you're not, when you do laundry, when you cook, when you get in an elevator. So how have you managed to do that?

EA: Yeah. So I think in the middle of this context, I think I am lucky because in my home I don't completely depend on power because my kitchen is still running with gas and also my shower, which is some technology, very old, but now it's, it works for me. And also I work at a university, so the university has generators. So when I can to work from home because I'm a freelancer and I work from home. But the last weeks I've been working a lot from the university that has power generators and that has an infrastructure that can provide me with like, you know, comfortable seats and stuff. So yeah, for me, I mean, I've been managing, but, you know, it's a matter of privilege. And people who don't have the privileges that I have are very, very like they can't leave normally, you know.

NK: 70 per cent or so of Ecuador's electricity comes from hydropower. Experts who spoke to The Guardian newspaper yesterday said that in their view, drought alone cannot be blamed for what is happening. And the article points to issues with investments, policy decisions and a slow response to repeated warnings about this kind of crisis. What do you think?

EA: I think everything leads to bad leadership, to bad planning and irresponsibility. I don't think that a good leadership should just rely on raining, you know. And the last month and last years for Ecuador, we have had very, a very like an intense crisis on leadership, on politics. So I think the blame is on our leaders who, who hadn't, who didn't plan and who were very irresponsible about the warnings and about the situation that was already coming you know, it's impossible that they didn't know.

NK: Your planning, you know, your work is to plan a film festival that is set to start tomorrow. How do you make contingency plans or just a plan at all, given what you're all dealing with?

EA: Yeah. So it's been very difficult because first of all, we had to plan the whole festival knowing that in some hours we couldn't really work because we didn't have power. And also the team is located in different parts of the city. So when I have power, many other team members don't. So it's been really a very big challenge. And the other thing is that our venues all depend on power, like everyone. So we are lucky enough that the venues have generators that allow them to continue working. But we do have some, like many screenings happening outside the big cities and these in very small cultural centres that they don't have any generators, so they are most likely to be cancelled. But since we don't have a schedule like planned for the next, I don't know, three weeks or two weeks, we don't know what's going to happen tomorrow and the day after tomorrow. So we just have to go like every day. It's a new, it's new information. So we just have to try to accept that we don't have control over some things, you know.

NK: How much longer are these power cuts going to continue?

EA: Well, you know, since we are in a very political campaign right now where our president is expecting to be re-elected, he always says that it's going to be over soon. Everyone said that by December it was going to be over, but I really don't believe them at all. I think it's going to last for a long, long time. I'm not an expert, but I don't have any hopes that it will end very soon.

NK: Estefania, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

EA: Thank you so much.

CH: Estefania Arregui lives in Quito, Ecuador, and that's where we reached her.

[Music: Lo-fi instrumental]

Uranus Discoveries

Guest: Jamie Jasinski

CH: We thought it was dead. But the power of modern science has brought it back to life. Except it actually never really was dead. Probably. For nearly 40 years, scientists thought the planet Uranus or Uranus, if you prefer, and its moons were incapable of life because of data gathered by NASA's Voyager 2 spacecraft in 1986, which found no gas or other material that might suggest life. But now scientists think that those original data were a little too weird to be right. A new paper in Nature Astronomy says Uranus and its five biggest moons may have oceans and may be capable of supporting life. It was Jamie Jasinski's idea to take another look at the old data. He's a space plasma physicist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory and the lead author on the paper, and we reached him in Pasadena, California.

NK: Jamie, could there actually be life on Uranus?

JAMIE JASINSKI: Well, I mean, that's probably taking it a little bit too far. But what we, what our results show is that actually what we once thought about the Uranian moons, which is that they aren't active or they may not have liquid water that, that might be wrong. So the results show that these worlds might have subsurface liquid water, and there's an explanation for why we didn't see anything with Voyager 2 at the time.

NK: Yeah, those 1986 findings which you've described as, quote, "weird". Just tell our listeners who didn't see those findings. What was so weird about them?

JJ: So what we expected from the moons of Uranus, these are five moons that orbit Uranus, they're made out of ice. And when we flew past with Voyager 2, we expected some evidence of water to be trapped by the magnetic field of Uranus to be seen in the measurements by Voyager 2. And we didn't see anything. We didn't see any evidence for water. We didn't see much of anything. It was just completely and utterly empty, which is not what you expect at all. And so it was a very weird observation. And we've been calling it a vacuum magnetic field for the last 40 years.

NK: And so now, you know, what caused that to be weird. What happened?

JJ: Yeah. So we went back and looked at all the data specifically of what was happening at Voyager 2, what Voyager 2 was measuring before it got to Uranus and what happened after. And it was essentially measuring activity from the sun. So the sun is constantly emitting this sort of charged gas that flows out from the sun and hits all the planets. And it was measuring that. And we observed that just before the Voyager 2 flyby happened, the pressure of that gas really went up dramatically. And not just a little bit, a lot. And so much so that when it hit Uranus's magnetosphere, it compressed that whole magnetic field to about 20 per cent of the original size and that massive sort of dramatic squashing of the magnetic field can push all that water out of the system. And it really kind of shows us that we didn't really take into account what the sun was doing during the Voyager 2 flyby. And it's a really cool explanation for why the observations were so weird at the time.

NK: And just to underline what you were saying just a little bit earlier in our chat, you were looking at the data of the surrounding environment, not just the planet. That's what led you to this moment of discovery. So why did it take so long? Why did you think to look where all those other scientists had not before?

JJ: Yes. So I think everyone, when they want to analyze or study Uranus, they focus on the data from the flyby itself. And I guess I just sort of you know; the Voyager 2 flyby was always showed extreme sort of results. And I never quite bought it, as it were, because I know that, we all know that these sort of flybys happen and they only captured the system in a very short snapshot in time. The flyby was only five days. To go back and really look at what was sort of happening at the time of Voyager 2.

NK: And so when you make this breakthrough and we love a breakthrough moment when we're talking to scientists, what was that moment like for you? What do you do in that moment?

JJ: Well, I think there was, it's kind of more of a shock. It wasn't more of sort of jumping up and down or anything. It was more of sort of looking at it. I was just sort of dumbfounded and it kind of really made me open my eyes of sort of, okay, this kind of this, this could possibly explain everything. And obviously, it took a bit more work to really kind of put everything into context. But that first initial plot really sort of, was sort of a revelation and sort of made me a bit dumbfounded that this was unnoticed for so many years.

NK: The headlines and we and certainly you were still using the word might, could you know, we may know now why, you know, all of this... you know we thought all of this for so long. But is it possible that in the end, it is really as weird as you thought that the original conclusions were correct?

JJ: Yeah. That's always a possibility. Right. We're only trying to explain what we see from Voyager 2. The only real way to conclusively answer this is to go back. And that's one of the sort of goals for NASA in the next couple of decades, is to go back there with a spacecraft and not just fly past it, but orbit it for a number of years to really try and understand the planet magnetic field and its moons and whether they could have water under those crusts and have these sort of subsurface oceans.

NK: A pleasure speaking with you, Jamie. Thank you.

JJ: Thank you.

CH: Jamie Jasinski is a space plasma physicist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. We reached him in Pasadena, California.

[Music: Whimsical instrumental]

FOA: My Little Pony Hall Of Fame

SOUNDCLIP

My Little Pony Theme.

CH: I had a hunch this would be the year and now the day has come at last. I feel like Apple Bloom, Scootaloo and Sweetie Belle when they finally get their Cutie Marks, relieved, full of renewed purpose. And that purpose is to ask why it took the strong National Museum of Play in Rochester, New York, so long to induct My Little Pony into the Toy Hall of Fame. Year after year, the lush maned residents of Equestria have been snubbed just because they can't transform like a Transformer or haul alphabet blocks like Tonka Trucks or be chalk like sidewalk chalk. But now they're in. And As It Happens, is responsible. Not exclusively responsible, maybe. But from an interview last year, here is Nil laying her cards on the stable, table and putting some very pointed questions to Chris Bensch of the Strong Museum.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: "My Little Pony", to me, they meant a lot to me growing up. "Transformers", too. Love them. Why are they not already inducted?

CHRIS BENSCH: You know, that is what we are trying to address with the ‘Forgotten Five’. [NK chuckles] And this is the chance for listeners, toy fans everywhere to weigh in. And they can directly pick what gets into the Hall of Fame.

NK: And I think they should absolutely have a say. Why has it taken so long, though, do you think? The gatekeepers in the toy industry, what do they have against "My Little Pony" and the "Transformers"? Pogo Stick? Come on!

CHRIS BENSCH: Well, the Gatekeepers are only here at the Strong National Museum of Play. And each year, we hear from literally thousands of people. This year, they nominated more than 300 different toys. And we have to sift those down to a dozen that best fit our criteria --- our big criteria -- of longevity, recognition factor, and great play value.

NK: Is, do you have a favourite?

CHRIS BENSCH: I think it's time for "My Little Pony" to have their time in the spotlight in the centre ring, whatever metaphor you want to use.

NK: [chuckle] Are you just saying that because I voiced my love for them?

CHRIS BENSCH: I am not. I think "My Little Pony" --

NK: [chuckling] Good, good.

CHRIS BENSCH: Is kind of the "Barbie" of the toy horse world. [NK laughs] And I think that possibility of styling the mane and tail, all of that, that is so big with lots of kids makes them a really compelling plaything.

CH: Nil absolutely grilling [NK laughs] Chris Bensch of the National Toy Hall of Fame last year. Well, it worked. As of today, the majestic plastic pastel ponies with their glorious manes and giant hearts are finally getting the recognition they deserve. And if you're listening and I always like to believe you are, that means you; Applejack, Twilight Sparkle, Pinkie Pie, Fluttershy, Rainbow Dash, Princess Celestia, Rarity, Wonderbolts. Good Lord, there's pages of these. Firefly. Right. Okay. Good job, all of you. You hung in there and you kept your integrity, even though you could very easily have gotten involved in a whole dog and pony show.

[Music: Whimsical instrumental]

Part 2: Gaza Aid Deadline, U.S. Border Appointments, Marc Miller, N.S. Air Conditioners

Gaza Aid Deadline

Guest: Charles Blaha

CH: It has been 30 days since U.S. officials warned Israel to increase aid to Gaza or risk a reduction in military support. And the situation is more dire than ever before. Today, eight international aid groups released a report saying that Israel has not only failed to meet the criteria outlined by the U.S., but also taken actions that, quote, dramatically worsened the situation on the ground, particularly in northern Gaza, unquote. Nevertheless, this afternoon, a spokesperson for the U.S. State Department said it would not limit arms transfers to Israel and it had not found Israel in violation of U.S. law that requires recipients to adhere to international humanitarian law. Israel has rejected accusations that it impedes aid, access to Gaza and has said the humanitarian crisis there is exaggerated. Today, Israeli officials opened a new crossing in central Gaza for aid to enter. Charles Blaha has a retired U.S. State Department official who ran the office responsible for ensuring human rights and international humanitarian law are observed. When it comes to security assistance and arms transfers, we reached him in Silver Spring, Maryland.

NK: Charles, the State Department is saying today that it is not, quote, giving Israel a pass, unquote. What would you say it's doing?

CHARLES BLAHA: I say it's giving Israel another pass. I am disappointed, but I am not surprised at the fact that the State Department has decided to continue security assistance and aid to Israel in the face of Israel's continuing restrictions of humanitarian assistance, which by U.S. law should trigger restrictions in humanitarian assistance and arms transfers. I noted that the State Department spokesperson today said that we have not made an assessment that Israel is in violation of the U.S. law which, which prohibits assistance in arms transfers to countries that restrict security assistance. I think a more accurate reading of that is that the Department of State is not willing to make that assessment.

NK: If you are not surprised by this, if this was the outcome that you were expecting, what do you think the purpose of this exercise was? What was the motivation behind this letter and this deadline?

CB: Well, I do think that the motivation was to try to get some improvement in Israel's restrictions on humanitarian assistance to Gaza. I think the State Department hoped that it would get some action from Israel.

NK: Eight international aid organizations listed 19 measures of compliance with the U.S. demands in their recent report, saying Israel partially complied with four failed to comply with 15 of them. The U.S. State Department official who was speaking today said some progress has been made, but that the U.S. wants to, quote, see the totality of the humanitarian situation improve, end quote. They're suggesting some progress has been made.

CB: So, look, that's you know, progress is not what, is not what the law says. The law says that if a foreign government is prohibiting or restricting humanitarian assistance, that there should be restrictions. It doesn't say if there have been improvements. It doesn't, it doesn't say, well, if things go from awful to really bad, then that's enough to allow U.S. security assistance and U.S. arms transfers to the government in question. And let's remember the context of this, these are problems that have been costing Palestinian lives for months, for months. You may recall that in May, the State Department gave a report to Congress pursuant to the National Security Memorandum, and it said that Israeli actions were negatively affecting humanitarian assistance. That should have been enough in May to trigger restrictions.

NK: So why wasn't it?

CB: Well, the State Department has, and the administration have shown just a real reluctance to impose consequences on Israel. They, the State Department and the Defence Department have tried to persuade Israel that has been unsuccessful. And the State Department and the Defence Department and the administration are unwilling to impose any real consequences, consequences required by law in terms of security assistance or arms transfers. And with today's finding, has refused to impose consequences. The State Department should be ashamed.

NK: Israel has previously rejected accusations that it is impeding aid access to Gaza. We know U.S. officials say Israel's progress on humanitarian access in Gaza. Must be supplemented and sustained, is what they're saying. What do you expect to see when the administration changes and President-elect Donald Trump comes into office next year?

CB: I think it's very unlikely that a Trump administration will restrict security assistance or arms transfers. And the prospective Secretary of State, Senator Rubio, has been a person who has opposed any types of restrictions on security assistance or arms transfers to Israel. So I don't think there will be any change. What's interesting is that that President Trump has said that he would like to resolve the war in Ukraine and to resolve the situation in Gaza, but the situation in Gaza will not be resolved as long as Israel continues to pursue the military policies it's pursuing in Gaza and the military policies it's pursuing now in Lebanon. And so there might be some incentive there for President Trump to try to pressure Israel. But again, even with all that, I would be very surprised if the incoming administration placed any restrictions upon arms transfers or security assistance.

NK: Did the U.S. ever block arms transfers in your time with the State Department?

CB: Never. Never. And it also never enforced the Leahy laws, which prohibit U.S. security assistance to units that have committed gross violations of human rights.

NK: Charles, I thank you for your time. Please take care.

CB: Thank you.

CH: Charles Blaha retired last year after more than three decades with the U.S. State Department. He's in Silver Spring, Maryland.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

U.S. Border Appointments

Guest: Mike Weissman

CH: When Donald Trump returns to the White House, he won't be the only one who already knows where the bathrooms are. This week, the President-elect named Tom Homan as his incoming border czar. Mr. Homan was originally appointed by Barack Obama to lead Immigration and Customs Enforcement deportation division, and he became one of the leading proponents of the Trump administration's family separation policy. Here he is discussing that policy in a recent interview.

SOUNDCLIP

TOM HOMAN: I was hoping to save lives. While you and I are talking right now, a child is going to die on the border. So we thought maybe we prosecute people, they'll stop coming.

CECILIA VEGA: Is there a way to carry out mass deportation without separating families?

TOM HOMAN: Of course, there is. Families can be deported together.

CH: Tom Homan speaking with Cecilia Vega on "60 Minutes". Alongside Mr. Homan, Stephen Miller, a former Trump speechwriter and adviser who pushed several of that administration's immigration policies, including family separation, is expected to be named a deputy chief of staff. Here's what Mr. Miller told the audience at a Trump campaign rally last month.

SOUNDCLIP

STEPHEN MILLER: Who's going to stand up and say the cartels are gone, the criminal migrants are gone, the gangs are gone. America is for Americans and Americans only.

CH: The appointments followed Donald Trump's promises to close the U.S.-Mexico border and carry out mass deportations, including in the Denver suburb of Aurora, Colorado. During the campaign, Mr. Trump likened that community to a war zone, saying it was overrun by migrant crime. Mike Weissman is a Democratic state representative in Aurora who has just been elected to the State Senate. That's where we reached him.

NK: Representative Weissman, when you hear what the incoming administration, members of that incoming administration are saying and have said, what do you make of that? How do you prepare?

MIKE WEISSMAN: I think, honestly, some of us who care about human rights, who care about upholding our constitutional norms in Aurora and in Colorado and in other places in the United States are asking ourselves right now how, how we can prepare. You know, what we just heard in those clips, I think are some pretty radical and hate based types of statements that I really don't think most Americans would actually agree with if they stopped and thought about it in terms of mass raids, in terms of going into businesses, in terms of breaking up families, you know, even in terms of something as fundamental as American identity.

NK: What are people in Aurora who work with immigrants and migrants? What are they telling you?

MW: They are telling me that there is a great deal of concern. They are telling me that we all need to get organized. You know, I think to prepare for, prepare for the worst, you know, to protect communities, to protect individuals who, you know, are just human beings who are in our city, who are in our state simply trying to live their lives and do what anybody else wants to do, which is, you know, work hard, earn a living, provide for their families.

NK: There is concern about the comments we just heard as you and others have said. There is a concern about this overall issue right across the United States, as you well know as well, particularly in Colorado, as our colleague, CBC News colleague Paul Hunter reported last April, Denver has taken in more migrants than any city of its size in the U.S., spent more than 60 million dollars U.S. on supports for them so far. Aurora, as you know, has declared itself a non-sanctuary community, trying to underline for folks that that they won't have the kinds of municipal supports that they might hope to have. You are very much in President-elect Trump's sights. He has spoken out about Aurora in particular. Tell our listeners why you've become such a focal point for him.

MW: [sigh] You know, the reality is that Aurora has long been a very diverse city. You know, a former poet laureate in our city referred to us as the Ellis Island of the plains. You know, we are proud of that in Aurora. It's part of who we are. We have about 150 languages spoken in our schools. You know that many nationalities represented. In terms of why we have come into the crosshairs, I mean, President-elect Trump has been demagoguing this issue since the beginning of his first candidacy. So, you know, unfortunately, it suits his political hate based purposes. But those of us on the ground here are dedicated to making sure that human rights are upheld and that laws are followed. It doesn't matter who the president is. This is a nation of laws.

NK: There are concerns, though. You know, a city councillor told our colleague back in the spring. Aurora embraces diversity, as they put it, but doesn't want to or cannot even deal with the kind of cost challenges that Denver has dealt with. During the campaign as you know, Trump went even further and made sweeping allegations about crime and Venezuelan gangs in particular, much of them exaggerated to say the least, as some have reported since. But how do you respond to those who say if there are people in America illegally and are, there are concerns about safety, that they're committing crimes? What do you believe should be done in that case?

MW: Look, if people are committing crimes, law enforcement can and should get a warrant and make an arrest. That is very different than mass raids targeting people simply because of their nationality.

NK: When you hear Tom Homan, you know, say in that "60 Minutes" interview that they won't be, quote, mass sweeps of neighbourhoods, it's not going to be building concentration camps, unquote. Targeted arrest is how he described it, worksite enforcement operations. What do you envision playing out in your community?

MW: I mean, frankly, it's a little bit hard to know because different people proposed to be coming into the new presidential administration here are saying different things sometimes to different audiences or on different days. I've read some of the quotes recently from Tom Homan about operating in a targeted way. On the other hand, you can see rhetoric coming out of people attached to the last administration or proposed to be part of the next one. Speaking of broad raids, speaking of large detention facilities. You see the stocks of companies that build and operate private detention facilities in this country going up sharply after the election. You see notes of calls they've had with their investors talking about opportunities. Those sorts of things are not consistent with a targeted approach. Those things are consistent with a very broad approach, and that is the basis for a great deal of concern.

NK: You're a Democrat as we've said, Colorado is a blue state. Has stayed a blue state after this historic election. Given how clearly so many voters cared about immigration or listened to what the Republican campaign was saying on that, what lessons do you think your party should take away from these election results?

MW: Look, the country narrowly chose President Trump. We did not. Vice President Harris, defeated candidate Trump by 11 per cent in Colorado. That represents a rejection of the hate based rhetoric that we saw coming from the Trump campaign.

NK: But the majority of the country didn't. So I wonder what you take away from that in terms of campaigning, in terms of where the party goes next.

MW: Look, I think people chose Trump in different states for a lot of reasons. I personally feel a lot of that had to do with the economic condition of a lot of people in our country who have been struggling, who have experienced inflation, whose wages are not keeping up, who see that the economy overall is rigged against them. I think the Democratic Party needs to do a better job of talking about those issues and frankly, getting back to our historic roots of standing for working people. Some folks may have determined their vote on immigration matters. I think, frankly, more did not, than did. I do think it is appropriate to talk about having a secure border, whatever we decide that means in terms of physical infrastructure. I also think the reality is that America is and has always been a country of immigrants. We are the United States of America today because we benefited from all the contributions of immigrants in the past. And we forget that part of ourselves at our peril.

NK: Representative Weissman, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

MW: Thanks for your interest.

CH: Mike Weissman is a Colorado Democratic state representative who's just been elected to the State Senate. He's in Aurora.

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Marc Miller

CH: As we just heard, Donald Trump has repeatedly promised to conduct the largest deportation in American history. And all signs so far suggest that he's preparing to follow through on that promise. That has some politicians in Canada openly worrying about an influx of asylum seekers heading north. And it's putting pressure on the Trudeau government to establish some kind of plan for that possibility. This morning, Marc Miller, the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship, spoke with the CBC.

SOUNDCLIP

MARC MILLER: I think most Canadians like, as they do, have followed the U.S. election quite intensely and saw some very strong rhetoric around immigration and that is of concern. Anything that the U.S. does do, does impact Canada most of the time, regardless of the issue. The reality is that we also have a pretty well managed northern border, southern border to us and a very important agreement that regulates it, Safe Third Country Agreement. It has its challenges, but it has proved that not only can we move forward and innovate on it, but a very effective tool to manage migration from the U.S. to Canada and from Canada to the U.S. I don't want to speculate too much because I have a responsibility to actually engage with that, with the government that is now in an interim period with the Trump administration and work with my colleagues and make sure that we actually are on the same page about the, that border. It is in both our national interest to have one that is safe, secure and has a managed flow of migrants. And I'll continue to that, it also is the reality in Canada that we can't accept everyone that comes here. And that is, that's just a fact.

STEPHEN QUINN: I guess I can appreciate the fact that you don't want to speculate. At the same time, do we not need to prepare?

MM: Yeah. Look in perspective, Stephen, this is, the border is, we're in a very enviable position as Canada with, you know, big block of ice to the north and two oceans to the west and east and a nuclear superpower to the south. It is relatively difficult to get to Canada, but we should disabuse ourselves of the idea that Canada is entirely impermeable. And we have seen people sometimes taking their lives into their hands and crossing into Canada in search of that hope that a lot of people come to Canada and look for. The reality is not everyone can come here and there is a regular way of doing it and there's an irregular way of doing it that we highly discourage, because not only is it dangerous, it's not fair to other Canadians that have sought refuge in Canada, particularly when we're talking about asylum seekers and refugees and are entitled to due process to see whether they are actually legitimate claimants. We cannot accept people in the volumes that a lot of people are suggesting. Right now, that is hyperbole, but we are prepared and it is something that we will continue to be prepared for, both in a proactive way and in a reactive way.

CH: Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Marc Miller, speaking with Stephen Quinn, host of The Early Edition in Vancouver today.

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

N.S. Air Conditioners

CH: Julie Leggett fought for the right to stay cool and won. But that doesn't mean she's kicking back in front of her air conditioner. Ms. Leggett is on income assistance during the heat waves in Nova Scotia this past summer she couldn't afford to buy an AC unit, but she also couldn't afford to go without one. So her friend loaned her the money. When she applied for a reimbursement from the province, the Department of Community Services refused to pay for the unit. She appealed that decision, arguing that her chronic pain was made worse by the heat. The appeals board agreed and recently granted her that 450 dollar reimbursement. But that win only applies to her case, and Ms. Leggett doesn't think that's right. So she's pushing for it to be a provincial election issue.

SOUNDCLIP

JULIE LEGGETT: Well, I live in a small one bedroom apartment, is upstairs and it's an older home and it wasn't set up for the current climatic conditions so, it's routinely very hot. If it's 40 degrees outside, it's hotter in here. And yeah, it's pretty brutal with nothing.

BOB MURPHY: And that can go on for days at a time?

JULIE LEGGETT: Weeks.

BOB MURPHY: And so originally when you applied to the Department of Community Services, they turned you down?

JULIE LEGGETT: Yes.

BOB MURPHY: How did you feel about that?

JULIE LEGGETT: I actually expected that. I know that it's not the current practice, and so that's why I'm here now.

BOB MURPHY: Yeah. What did it mean to win your case?

JULIE LEGGETT: It means a lot to me, and I, I think it's the right thing. And I hope that they will extend this to others because it's really. It's necessary for everyone.

BOB MURPHY: So you have made it through one summer with the air conditioning unit.

JULIE LEGGETT: I got it just this summer. I think it was July, somewhere June or July, yeah.

BOB MURPHY: And it instantly made a difference than for you did it.

JULIE LEGGETT: In an instant. It was just like walking in out of the cold.

BOB MURPHY: And Julie, you mentioned there that you'd like to see this go further. And I know there's currently a provincial election underway in Nova Scotia. So when you say you'd like to see this taken further and applied more broadly, what do you mean?

JULIE LEGGETT: I think at the end of the day, what it really boils down to is just that temperature control is a basic human need. And from my perspective, just for that, it's protected by human rights. Everybody has the right to control the temperature in their environment. It's necessary for health and safety. Air conditioning should be considered medical equipment, and everybody should be entitled to that.

CH: That was Julie Leggett speaking with Maritime Noon host, Bob Murphy about the difference in air conditioner made in her life.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Part 3: Horgan Obit., Soccer Canada Spying, Wrong Leg Amputation, COP Azerbaijan President, Encore: Old Library Book, Merritt Sewage Star

Horgan Obit.

CH: A lot of people have found themselves tearing up today in British Columbia. And the fact that they're not all New Democrats is a tribute to John Horgan's political skills. The two time NDP Premier and Canadian Ambassador to Germany died today at the age of 65. He had left office after a second diagnosis of cancer, which he survived. But then he was diagnosed a third time. Here's John Horgan's, former colleague, current B.C. Premier David Eby.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVID EBY: I think for many British Columbians he made them think differently about politics and about politicians. He was accessible. He was fun and funny. And he was called Premier Dad and rightly so. For myself, he was a coach and a mentor. He was an inspiration to me. He had advice when I needed it. He conducted himself with the utmost in integrity and he brought a spirit of fun to his work that was infectious. And many of you will remember too, he had a bit of a temper from time to time. And if you hadn't been yelled at by John Horgan, then you hadn't truly worked with him. I truly worked with John Horgan.

REPORTER: You spent a lot of time with him. Other than him yelling at you, are there any stories that stand out in your mind?

DAVID EBY: I think for me, for John, that the piece that I looked at in awe about was his ability to turn what was a clear political liability moment into a political asset. I remember is that the story that he told many times, I sure you heard him tell the story about knocking over the water glass in the meeting with the prime minister and then turning that into, the discussion was about pipelines and saying, well, this is how easily spills can happen. He had the ability to take those moments where it was a tough moment or it was just maybe a little embarrassing and make people just love him more. And for me, that's, that really encapsulates who he was.

CH: B.C. Premier David Eby talking to reporters about his predecessor, the late John Horgan, at the B.C. Legislature today. And when Premier Eby suggested that reporters had probably heard that story about the water glass. It's because it's a story that John Horgan told so often that he came to call it simply "The Water Story", and it went like this.

SOUNDCLIP

JOHN HORGAN: The Prime Minister and I had agreed that we were going to talk about softwood lumber, which was my primary reason for being there. We were going to talk about housing, we were going to talk about child care and transportation initiatives here in B.C. And we weren't going to talk about that thing that I'm not going to talk about tonight. But about five questions in, someone finally said, so when are we going to talk about the pipeline. And I had my hand in my pocket. And I took my hand out and I hit the glass and it started to fall. Now, this is my first trip outside of British Columbia as leader of the government, and I'm Irish, so I'm hopeful always that luck will behind my side. And I watched this cup spin and spin and spin for what seemed like an eternity. Not quite as long as the time I spent in opposition, but very, very close. And it kept going down and down. And you'll know that the floors are marble at the House of Commons just outside the chamber. And the glass hit the ground and it didn't break. So for that very glimmer of hope that the Irish always have, good things are going to get better. And it started spinning around and the water was going everywhere. And I looked down and I looked over at the prime minister and I said, See, spills can happen anywhere. And that was the exact response from the media. And so I thought, good, I'm off the hook. And I thought, I'll just sit back and let him handle it. And the prime minister immediately turned said, We'll get someone to clean that up. And I said, Well, of course you will. It's a federal responsibility. [laughter]

CH: That was the late British Columbia Premier John Horgan, who led the B.C. NDP to back-to-back victories after they'd been out of power for more than 20 years. John Horgan died today in Victoria. He was 65.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Soccer Canada Spying

Guest: Carrie Serwetnyk

CH: The game is played on the ground. But Canada's national soccer teams have been committing fouls in the sky. Today, Canada Soccer made public the findings of an independent investigation into the drone spying scandal that rocked the Paris Olympics and announced that head coach Bev Priestman is out for good. The report has been released at the same time as a new investigation by Radio-Canada, which reveals that coaches with both the men's and women's teams were so, quote, "obsessed" with outmaneuvering their rivals that they reportedly spent years pressuring employees to spy on opponents with drones. Carrie Serwetnyk is a former player on the Canadian Women's National soccer team. We reached her in Vancouver.

NK: Carrie, you were a member of Team Canada in the late '80s into the early '90s. Did you ever during your time get any sense that there was spying or surveillance going on?

CARRIE SERWETNYK: No, the drones have not, had not been invented in that time. Not that I would ever approve. But the thing I did like is here there were coaches doing their homework, studying the game and other teams as much as possible because they want to win. I would like that not obviously the way they did it, but the desire to, you know, do their best and prepare themselves. That's a positive attribute. To be flying a drone in Paris over, or in France over a practice that went way too far. The game has changed so much, that so much more money and media and television is on the line. And the quest to win is so much more paramount.

NK: Sources told our Radio-Canada colleague Romain Schué in his reporting, which I know you've looked at, that investigation, that what happened in Paris this summer was just, quote, "the tip of the iceberg". As you looked at that reporting, that Radio-Canada investigation, apart from the fact that this was happening at all. Were there other elements that stunned you?

CS: Yeah, I think the thing that surprised me the most was that a few players may have known because they were so outraged by this, they were proclaiming their innocence. And I do believe them. I think we live in a different modern times where surveillance is everywhere. People have cell phones with so much video and like information that people can gather. It may have been something where people really did think something like this was a norm. So if some players knew about that, that's not great.

NK: And you mentioned that people allegedly knew about this. They've come forward saying, you know, their names are redacted in this report, but they've come forward saying they felt pressure about this, they felt uncomfortable about this, but they didn't feel that they could challenge the authority of the head coach, John Herdman, at the time. What does that kind of pressure tactic signal to you?

CS: I think it sounds terrible because obviously these people may have had a conscience about, this is going over the line and my boss is telling me to do this. I feel for those people who didn't feel it was morally correct to do, you know, just kind of kept going.

NK: I think it might be surprising, all of this has been surprising for a lot of Canadians. Yes, they want their team to win. Yes, they get behind that team, men's or women's, as they hit the world stage, certainly. But this is not how they see Canadian teams. It's not really how the world maybe sees Canadian teams, that they would take these kinds of risks and break these kinds of rules.

CS: Yeah, no, I feel like the Canadian women's team has had such a solid reputation. They've had golden moments. And, you know, I've tried to look at a lot of different angles. And I wonder about these things like, are the top teams, 10 teams, top 20 teams doing these kind of surveillances. Is this just a norm in the world? Like you look at all these other sports, there is such an industry for finding information and stats. I've really thought about deeply is, and I start with the men's team, is that we did not qualify for 36 years. For the Canadian men they went into complete hostile environments. There was corruption, there's referees, terrible field conditions for their training, there was food poisoning. So, we were never able to match up with that. So, I suppose John Herdman, you know, looked at this kind of information, said, all right, well, we need to fight fire with fire. If they're doing this well, we need to do it, too. And so that's just maybe the norm. I've talked, I spoke to people from other countries about this, and literally they just shrug their shoulders and said it's nothing.

NK: Well, could they not have reached the heights that they did without this technology, without this cheating?

CS: Yeah, it's questionable. Like, I looked at the Tokyo Olympics and I saw in the report, they're not saying they did it then. And I, I believe that like I've lived in Japan before, it's so rigid. You know, the COVID police chasing after anyone who went the wrong way. And so there's just no way they could have done it during that time period. And, you know, I hope that just helps to help their reputation. And they won that fairly.

NK: Bev Priestman is officially out as coach of the women's national team. She was on leave. She had been placed on leave after the Paris incident, as we know. When we talk about John Herdman and, you know, the reporting from our colleagues is that this was essentially passed down from him to Bev Priestman. Do you think that he and other officials I mean, there are allegations that executives knew that this was happening, players may not have.

CS: Well, that's the other thing, right, is if Bev Priestman's getting fired, which makes sense to me. No offence to her. I liked her as a coach. But this is, again, like impossible. It's impossible she would never coach again here in Canada. And yeah, if the executives knew well what's happening to them. You can just, you know, shoot the coach and a few staffers. But what about the people further along?

NK: And what about Herdman?

CS: He's a bit untouchable. He's with MLS and Toronto is not working for Soccer Canada anymore, right. I don't necessarily see anything happening to him. And if it did, then we'd find him on another team somewhere else.

NK: But Priestman won't. It's interesting.

CS: Well, I hope she gets a job somewhere in another country at some point, right. Obviously, she has a lot of other talents. I'm sure she will have learned her lesson by then. You know, I hope we can all wish her the best wherever she goes. It just would be impossible to see her on the sidelines in Canada. Like, I can't see the players working with her. Yeah.

NK: Do you see Team Canada being able to move forward from this? How do the players shrug this off?

CS: Well, first of all, they will have that label for life. Second, you know, I was at the game, France versus Canada in Saint-Étienne and it was one of the best matches I've ever seen Canada play. They just had so much inspiration and drive and character and this quest to overcome the story. And it lights them up. They played much better in the Olympics than they did in the World Cup. They are going to forever have something to prove. Even future generations are going to have to, you know, live with this story and the doubt that Canadians might have like, oh, did you win because a drone was flying... So, the players, are they supposed to wear black shirts with an X over them for, you know, next decade? I don't think so.

NK: Carrie, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

CS: Have a great day.

NK: You too.

CH: Carrie Serwetnyk is a former player on the Canadian women's national soccer team. We reached her in Vancouver.

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Wrong Leg Amputation

CH: Jason Kennedy needed his right leg amputated, but doctors accidentally removed his left leg. Mr. Kennedy lives with a bone infection that was causing pain in both of his feet, but his right foot was worse. So, doctors at Grace Hospital in Winnipeg ordered an amputation from the knee down. And then somehow there was a mix up. In a statement, the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority offered its sincere apologies, but called Mr. Kennedy's case "a complex clinical situation". Now, he hopes antibiotics are enough to keep him from being a double amputee. Here he is speaking with the CBC.

SOUNDCLIP

JASON KENNEDY: I was under the impression that it was going to be my right foot that was gone. And then coming out of the anesthesic and I was already getting prepped for surgery, coming out of the anesthesia and when I woke up like from my bed, my recovery area. I was in disbelief, disbelief that they took the wrong leg. And I knew for a fact they did take the wrong leg. And I was just wondering if this was a bad dream. And like, the pain is still in my foot and it's there right, right now as we speak. And all I could do is just think, why is this happening to me and why... like, I knew, I was under the impression it was going to be my right leg because that's where the worst pain is like right now. And my first thoughts were like, forgiveness is in my mind. You know, I could forgive a person easily because I learned from my family, like my mom and my dad and mom and my grandma, you know, I learned from them like how forgiveness is important, that we leave that up to the creator for, you know... So we don't have to think about things like that. They came and told me, he came and told me that, he's apologized to me, that I'm sorry but in the photos it looked like it was your right foot, in the photos, it looked like it was your right foot that had to go and not your left. And then all of a sudden I said, No, it's the right foot that has to go. And, you know, I told him the left foot is obviously is healing, but the right foot really had to go but he was mistaken by the photos. So, I don't know how he could be mistaken by the photos. I got to live with that. And it's a life changing factor of course. Life changing for me because I was always on my feet. I was always doing something, you know, something that meant well to me and walking and, you know, pedalling around the city with my bike and knew helping others. And I could not... I can't do that with both legs gone. But I could do it with one gone. But now if the antibiotics don't work out, how... it's possible that I can't even use two prosthetics, you know, can't do the things I want to.

CH: That was Jason Kennedy speaking with the CBC's Josh Crabb in Winnipeg.

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COP Azerbaijan President

CH: Today in Baku, Ilham Aliyev was looking to correct the record. Mr. Aliyev is the president of Azerbaijan, and he's hosting this year's COP 29 Climate Summit. The summit is about saving the world from climate change. But after it was announced that a major petroleum exporter would play host, there were questions about President Aliyev's commitment to the goal. Here's some of Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev's address to the delegates today.

SOUNDCLIP

ILHAM ALIYEV: Right after Azerbaijan was elected as a host country of COP 29, we became a target of coordinated, well-orchestrated campaign of slander and blackmail. Western fake news media and so-called independent NGOs and some politicians, as if we're competing in spreading disinformation and false information about our country. To accuse us that we have oil is the same, likes to accuse us that we have more than 250 sunny days a year in Baku. Countries should be judged by other criteria. For instance, level of unemployment In Azerbaijan, it is 5.4 per cent. Level of poverty, it is 5.2 per cent. So these and many other important criteria, which should be a basis for kind of evaluation of the country's performance, but not the country's natural resources, which are the gift of the God. I said it several months ago, and now all those who want I mean, international media to attack me just caught me that I said that this is a gift of the God. And I want to repeat it today here at this audience. It's a gift of the God. Every natural resource, whether there's oil, gas, wind, sun, gold, silver, copper, all that are natural resources. And countries should not be blamed for having them and should not be blamed for bringing these resources to the market because the market needs them. The people need them. So this is my message. And as a president of COP 29, of course we will be a strong advocate for green transition and we are doing it but at the same time, we must be realistic.

CH: That was the president of Azerbaijan, Ilham Aliyev, addressing delegates at the COP 29 climate summit in Baku earlier today.

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

Encore: Old Library Book

CH: We've all done it, finished a book and put it aside where we would definitely remember to return it to the library and then forgotten to return it to the library. Weeks go by, then months, dust piles up on the book. And at the library, overdue fees pile up. The shame is too great. You hide the book somewhere it cannot haunt you. And you never go back to that library again. I'm not talking about a personal scarring experience at all, but if I were, I would wish that I had known it is never too late because someone just returned a book to a Massachusetts library that was 51 years overdue. But all is forgiven. And now other patrons can enjoy "The Early Works of Aubrey Beardsley". Mind you, back in 2001, we spoke with Julie Geissler, who returned a library book 80 years after it was taken out. And not just any book. An 1859 first edition of Charles Darwin's "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection". Of course, Ms. Geissler herself had not checked the book out. It was, in fact stolen. But she did return it to the Boston Public Library. And she told, As It Happens, guest host Ken Rockburn the tale.

SOUNDCLIP

KEVIN ROCKBURN: Hi, Ms. Geissler.

JULIE GEISSLER: Hi.

KR: So tell me how you ended up with this particular book. How did you come across it?

JG: It was actually passed down through my family. One of my distant relatives passed away about four years ago, and my grandmother and my mother went to clean out the estate. And in going through it, my mom found the book and put it aside for me because I was a science major in college and she thought I would appreciate it.

KR: [chuckles] Now, at what point did you realize what it was you had?

JG: Actually, not until about, well, not even really, till about three weeks ago. But in February we went and picked up the boxes from my mom's house and I took a look through it then and I realized that it was the first edition and we recently just had enough money saved to have it appraised. So about three weeks ago I took it out again and, and brought it down to Portsmouth to have it appraised.

KR: And what was the appraisal?

JG: He said, the appraiser had said that at the condition that it was in, it would be about 10 thousand dollars. But if I were to have it restored, it could be upwards of 30 thousand dollars. [KR: Really?] Yeah.

KR: Now, to have it restored would mean doing. What did he tell you?

JG: He said I would have to send the book out and, to a rare book restorer, and it would cost anywhere between two and five hundred dollars.

KR: Okay. Is it sort of like in shabby condition? What does it look like?

JG: No, actually it's, it was in fairly good condition. All the pages were intact and the binding was still intact. Just the hard cover, the front cover had fallen off and was now no longer attached to the binding. And some of the pages were watermarked and they're yellowed because it's an old book. But aside from that, it was in fairly good condition.

KR: So when you noticed that it was a first edition, did you have an inkling then that it was something special?

JG: A little bit, yeah, I did. I did have an inkling. So I started doing some research online and found out that it was pretty rare to have a first edition book. And the second editions that I found online were around eight thousand dollars. So I knew that it could be probably somewhere around there.

KR: So it was a library book, right? [JG: Yes.] Now, how did you know it was a library book? Did it have that little pocket glued in the back?

JG: Actually, no, not in the back. But it actually had a watermark stamp on the title page that said Property of the Public, Boston Public Library.

KR: So what made you decide to bring it back to the library?

JG: Well, when I took it to the appraiser, he said that the only thing that concerned him about the book was the watermark stamp. And usually if a book were to discharge, if the library were to discharge a book, they would put a second stamp in. And there wasn't a second stamp. So he wanted me to do some research before I would, before I could get a formal appraisal. So I started doing the research. And after about 4 or 5 days, my husband and I found out that it did belong to the library and we discussed it and decided that it was the right thing to do to return it.

KR: Ok, were attempted not to.

JG: Yeah, there's always that temptation. But just talking about, I mean, we have a young son and another on the way and we just felt like it would be better for us to, you know, have a story to pass on about, you know, the value of being honest rather than, I mean, it would have been nice to have the money, but, I couldn't really do that because it, it didn't belong to me.

KR: So, how did it come to be in your family if it was a library book. Do you have any idea?

JG: At some point, it was taken from the research department in the library. And, on the inside page, it said that it was purchased in 1923, and it had a price of 61 dollars written on it. [KR: Ok.] And then it had one of my relatives names written on the inside cover.

KR: Ok. So, they may have bought the book and then given it to the library. Is that what happened, do you think?

JG: Actually, no, I don't think so. Because they received the book in the late 1800s or actually the late 1900s. Excuse me. [KR: Yeah.] Because on the inside, you could still see a little bit of the sticker from the library. And it said donated by... [KR: Oh, I see. Okay.] And it had 18 something and the date was ripped off, so.

KR: So when you went down to the library to take it back, did you give them like a heads up that you were coming or do you just walk in and hand it to somebody and say, Sorry, I've had this for a while?

JG: Yeah, I just, we just walked in. My husband and I, he took the day, the half a day off from work and we went down together and, you know, we walked in and I said, well, we've been doing some research and we've had this book and we think it might belong to the library. So can you find out for us? And, you know, after about 15 minutes, they knew that it was theirs.

KR: Were they a little freaked out by this?

JG: Put it back. Yes, I think they couldn't believe it. It was funny because the person that I brought it back to, Scott Cornwall, he was in such shock that he, my husband and I were actually walking out of the library and he came running after us and he was like, I didn't get your name. [KR laughs] So.

KR: So I'm figuring at what, two cents overdue a day from 1859? [JG: Yeah.] They didn't dare charge you.

JG: Oh, no, no. I know. I joked with my husband about that. I said, well, probably. Like eight thousand dollars. But I guess the maximum overdue charge is a dollar twenty five. And even if, even if you didn't take out the book, if someone in your family did and you turn it in years later, you're still responsible. But Mayor Menino said that he was just going to waive that charge, which kind of made me happy. It would have been, it would have been a sting if they charged me for overdue.

KR: Yeah, no kidding.

JG: Yeah.

KR: So what have they done with the book? Where is it now?

JG: It's in their rare books department, and they're in the process of examining the pages individually and raising money for the restoration of the book.

KR: Boy, it's a great story, Julie. Thanks a lot for talking to us about it.

JG: Thank you.

KR: Okay, Bye bye.

JG: Bye bye.

CH: That was Julie Geissler speaking with As It Happens, guest host Ken Rockburn in 2001 about returning a library book 80 years late.

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Merritt Sewage Star

CH: It's hard, honest work but wastewater treatment plant operating isn't the kind of gig that tends to land you on the cover of a magazine, unless you're Kevin Vilac and the magazine is Treatment Plant Operator. He's on the front of the November issue. And as the city of Merritt, B.C. detailed in a recent press release, that's not the only recognition Mr. Vilac has received over the years. Last year, he was featured in another magazine. In 2022, he was named Operator of the Year. He was a finalist in 2023 and once again this year. This morning, Kevin Vilac spoke to the CBC about how all this recognition has felt.

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KEVIN VILAC: It's overwhelming. It's overwhelming for sure.

SHELLEY JOYCE: Explain why it's overwhelming. And I understand maybe it's just all the publicity, right? You're also on the cover of an industry magazine.

KEVIN VILAC: Yes. Well, the biggest thing is I don't feel I really did too much in the whole situation to get all the kudos and glamour, I guess, if you want to call it that. Really, at the end of the day, it was my team of operators that trusted and believed in me and performed all the tasks I asked them to, to make me so successful.

SHELLEY JOYCE: In the wastewater business I guess this is as good as glamour gets, huh?

KEVIN VILAC: It sure is.

SHELLEY JOYCE: [laughs] Tell me a little bit more about the business. How did you get into water and wastewater work?

KEVIN VILAC: Well, I started with the city of Merritt as a labourer, and then I became full time as an equipment operator. And one day when the existing operator in the treatment plant got sick and they needed somebody to go into the treatment plant. So, I volunteered to go in there because of my background of being in garbage, gross things didn't really bother me. And after spending that day in the wastewater treatment plant, I just fell in love with it. And that's where I knew I wanted to be for the rest of my life.

SHELLEY JOYCE: That's, that is so poetic. What made you fall in love with it? As you mentioned you worked in garbage before. So, you're used to smelly things but it's you know, not many people want to work in wastewater, right? [laughs]

KEVIN VILAC: Yeah. Well, it was a combination of the chemistry and the biology, the computers and then the mechanical aspect of it being able to troubleshoot and try to fix equipment if stuff broke down.

CH: Merritt, B.C. Wastewater treatment plant operator Kevin Vilac, speaking with the CBC's Shelley Joyce, host of Daybreak Kamloops.

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CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

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The AIH Transcript For November 12, 2024

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