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The AIH Transcript for November 07, 2024

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NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: A slap on the risk. The federal government orders TikTok to close its Canadian offices, citing security threats. But one expert says banning the company and not the app might just do more harm than good.

CH: Purple rain. Donald Trump picked up a boost of support in Democratic strongholds like New Jersey. A Republican there tells us he's hoping that will translate into a governorship for him.

NK: A cold cut above. A woman on Cape Breton tells us about her new cookbook, exploring the local culinary culture by showcasing classic and less classic baloney recipes.

CH: Cases closed. A legal analyst says Donald Trump didn't just win the presidency. He also won a get out of jail free card when it comes to some of his legal troubles.

NK: Ferry tale ending. A Newfoundland couple welcomed their first child after that baby decided to arrive during a seven hour ferry ride to New Brunswick.

CH: And there's been divisive art before, but this peels in comparison. Critics were disgusted when a prankster artist sold a banana duct taped to a wall for tens of thousands of dollars. So, they will really be mad when it sells at auction for over a million. As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that reflects on the bananity of evil.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Canadian TikTok Closure, Jon Bramnick, Bologna Cookbook, Wall Banana Auction

Canadian TikTok Closure

Guest: Michael Geist

CH: TikTok must close operations in Canada, but Canadians are free to keep using the app. That's the word from Canada's Minister of Innovation, François-Philippe Champagne, who said the platform's offices in Vancouver and Toronto need to be shuttered. He referred to specific national security risks related to the operations of TikTok's parent company ByteDance, uncovered by Canada's security and intelligence community. Here's what Minister Champagne told reporters yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

FRANÇOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: I'm not at liberty to go into much detail, but I know Canadians would understand, when you're saying the Government of Canada is taking measures to protect national security, that's serious. And I would think that every Canadian, every parents watching tonight, every citizen should be confident that when it comes to national security, there will be no compromise. And that's another example.

CH: We asked the minister's office today for more details about the specific national security risks he mentioned. But a spokesperson said they were unable to be any more specific. TikTok issued a statement saying the office closures would destroy, quote, hundreds of well-paying local jobs, unquote, and vowed to challenge the order in court. Michael Geist is an expert on Internet law at the University of Ottawa.

NK: Michael, what do you make of what the minister said there? The suggestion that TikTok should close its Canadian offices because of threats to national security?

MICHAEL GEIST: Yeah. No, I think the problem that I have and I think a lot of people have is that it's not clear that closing the offices does very much to actually address the security problem. Now, it's not totally clear what that security problem is, although we can venture a guess that there are concerns about the involvement of the Chinese government as part of TikTok operations, notwithstanding what the company says about some of the separation. But yet the notion of kicking the company physically out of the country while still maintaining availability the app the full, full ability to be able to use the app seems to go at this really in a somewhat wrongheaded direction because it doesn't address the underlying privacy and security concerns.

NK: If intelligence agencies in this country have uncovered activity in these offices, that that pose a threat to Canadian security, as the minister is suggesting, and I hear your point about how can you say it's okay to keep using the app and close the offices, but what would be a better response? What should they be doing instead, the government?

MG: Well, I certainly think that the bigger question around TikTok and we're seeing a lot of countries grapple with this question of the role the Chinese government. Start, the first point really is to ensure that we've got privacy and security rules that are fit for purpose, that are modernized to address this issue, both with respect to TikTok. But if we're honest about it more broadly, with many Internet and social media companies where there've been a lot of concerns about the data that gets collected, how it gets used, where it gets transferred to, a lot of questions there. And I think at this stage, general acknowledgement that Canadian privacy law that now dates back to 1998 when it was first introduced took effect a couple of years later. We're talking about 25 year old laws that predate virtually all of these companies. And we've got a piece of legislation that's been sitting in the House of Commons now for ages that's barely moving. And so a starting point is to ensure that we are equipped with effective laws. The next step is to ensure that you can effectively enforce them. And if you kick the company out of the country, it becomes tougher to enforce the law, not easier.

NK: What do you make of the fact that they're not telling us more about what the security risk might be?

MG: Well, I can't say that I'm shocked, although the company seems to say that it's going to challenge this in court. So it's possible that some of this will come out. But I certainly think, I think Canadians deserve a better explanation than just trust us, especially when they're taking an approach that we're not seeing really in many other places. We've had other countries, as I mentioned, that have said we're going to focus on TikTok, we have concerns about its linkages back to the Chinese government. And so, we're going to stop use of the app. And in fact, the government itself has said that its own employees cannot install TikTok on their devices, but yet Canadians can install those devices, Canadian creators can continue to use those devices. And we've now kicked the company out, making it tougher to enforce the existing rules. We haven't focussed on making sure we've got strong rules and at the same time, some of the benefits that we were getting, the government, for example, in the culture sector has been pushing these large internet platforms to contribute more from a cultural perspective. TikTok was actually putting money into Indigenous creators and into the music sector that presumably now walks away.

NK: So you think that this will hurt those kinds of investments and opportunities for creators?

MG: Well, clearly Well, I don't think there's any doubt. For the average creator that wasn't getting anything from TikTok other than access to the platform, nothing changes for the average Canadian that uses TikTok, nothing changes. For those creators that were beneficiaries of the millions the company was putting into the market in support as part of these different programs that now may be lost. Obviously, there's going to be some lost jobs here as well. But a fundamental question I think, for a lot of people is, well, what are we actually getting out of this? We could see what we're losing. But it doesn't seem that this addresses the fundamental concerns that may have been raised associated with this company.

NK: Why do you think the government is making this move and making it now then?

MG: I'm at a bit of a loss, to be honest. You know, if we look at the government's approach on digital policy for the last few years, they've consistently got it wrong, if we're honest about it, on the streaming side. They put forward legislation that targeted user content, became controversial and is now stuck in the courts when it came to the news sector, we now have blocked news links for over a year in Canada and an attempt to salvage something out of a bill that for many entities has caused more harm than good. On the online harms bill, on the privacy bill, that legislation has gone virtually nowhere. And so the track record is not great when it comes to digital policy. And this one here just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If what you're trying to do is ensure that Canadians privacy and security is more effectively protected.

NK: Based on what you just said there, the popularity of TikTok as well. Do you envision a day where Canada bans its use entirely?

MG: Well, if there was a significant enough issue, then I think it's certainly possible it wouldn't be a popular move, which I think helps explain why in the press release, the government went out of its way to emphasize they're not touching the app. But, you know, it feels a little bit like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, saying that you're addressing a security issue but not really addressing what I think for many would be perceived to be the more fundamental issue.

NK: As a person with the expertise that you have, I'm sure people ask you all the time, should they be using TikTok?

MG: Well, I think they should use TikTok and any other service with their eyes wide open. You know, I think there are benefits to a lot of these services and a lot of people really love that app, like they love a lot of these other services. But as it, as the cases with so many of these free apps, there is a price to be paid. And that comes very often in your privacy and the data gets collected how it gets used. And so you need to really have a good understanding about what you actually are paying for use of these services. And many will say that's a price they're willing to continue to pay. But you at least have to know what you're in for when you choose to use these different services.

NK: Michael, thank you.

MG: Oh my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

CH: Michael Geist is the Canada Research chair in Internet and e-commerce law in the University of Ottawa's Faculty of Law. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

Jon Bramnick

Guest: Jon Bramnick

CH: Just like in the stunning U.S. election of 2016. This past Tuesday, Donald Trump won more votes than analysts had expected. But this time around, he gained votes almost everywhere. The president- elect increased his voter base in nearly every part of the United States, including some longtime Democratic strongholds in New Jersey, where Democrats control all levels of government. Mr. Trump lost by just a five point margin compared to a 16 point margin in the last presidential election. Jon Bramnick is keeping an eye on that shift to the right. He's a Republican state senator who's making a run for New Jersey governor next year. We reached him in Westfield.

NK: State Senator Bramnick, as you were watching those election results come in. You're someone who is preparing to run for New Jersey governor. What did those results signal to you and your campaign?

JON BRAMNICK: That New Jersey is a purple state that it's a centre state in terms of the political spectrum, and that you should talk to citizens and voters about pretty much moderation on policies. And I've always felt that way. That's always been my direction as a, as an elected official. So it pretty much confirmed what I believe the New Jersey electorate is about.

NK: So it didn't surprise you, the shift?

JB: You know, I'm also a trial lawyer. You know, you can't you, can't see your case until it actually unfolds. Once you watch it coming in, it was pretty much what I would, I mean no one expected it to be that close in New Jersey. But when you thought it through, it kind of made sense.

NK: Ultimately, the state is still considered a blue state, but there was a clear shift, the margin much closer than it has been in a long time. You're a Republican, as we've said, but you have long been a very outspoken critic of Donald Trump. When you looked at those numbers, the popular vote as well, how did that sit with you as someone who has always thought he was problematic?

JB: Well, the problem was Kamala was a much weaker candidate then I think the Democrats could have had. If you look at the history, when you had a Bill Clinton, when you had, I'll call it a working class Democrat, somebody who looks like they were appealing to the working class of the society, they do much better. So I think that, once again, I don't think the electorate in New Jersey has changed. I think this was simply a reaction to the candidates themselves and where the Democratic Party has gone.

NK: Could it, could the shift, however marginal people may see it, or how significant, do you feel that it could also create problems for you if it continues to go further, right as the Trump administration gets to work and continues. What do you think that would mean for a campaign such as yours?

JB: Well, I don't think it is a problem at all, because if you think about Trump and Curtis Bashaw was running for United States Senate, both lost. So what it tells you is you still need a Republican who is in the middle because they may say this is close. Well, you know, 5 points, or 6 points or 9 points in the Senate race. Now, you still need a Republican who's going to win the state. So to me, it indicates more than ever that when Trump lost the State three times, now you want a Republican, that's slightly different than Trump. And there's no question, you know, I'm different than Trump.

NK: Some Democrats, lawmakers in particular in New Jersey have been quoted by The New York Times and others saying that for them, from what they see, the vice president didn't gain votes because people were just not willing to elect a woman of colour that, that was what this was about for them. What would you say to that?

JB: Yeah, I don't believe that at all. Not at all. I think that she was just not a good candidate. I mean, I just don't think that was the issue. You know, I don't believe it has to do with a woman or a woman of colour. I don't think that's the issue at all. I think the issue is if you're going to attract voters, you have to be clear. You have to be concise. You have to give them confidence in you. And I pretty much have said that she didn't do that. It just sounded to me like when she spoke of, quote, "political speak". Political speak is something that now should be in history. And if you think about it, Chris Christie or even a Donald Trump were the new wave of candidates, you have to be clear. And I didn't know what she was saying. This is nothing to do with woman/man it has to do with, you know, be clear as to who you are and what you're going to do.

NK: You must take lessons from it about what you will and won't do when you run.

JB: Well, my lesson will be and I've been running for office for 25 years, so I'm pretty much clear as to what I do. I stay consistent. Someone asked me a question, I answer the question. People know my record. So it's hard to change when you've been doing it for this long because people will say you're not authentic. The most important thing in politics to me is authenticity. People must look at you, listen to you, and then say, you know, I disagree with this person on certain things, but it's clear. One of the things Donald Trump is clear about, is being clear. He says stuff. And I think, you know, some of it is, you know, clearly inappropriate. But he's clear and to some degree authentic. He's authentic. All right. And I do think that Kamala didn't present that.

NK: Senator, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

JB: Thank you so much. Appreciate the call.

CH: Jon Bramnick is a Republican state senator in New Jersey. We reached him in Westfield.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Bologna Cookbook

Guest: Megan MacLeod

CH: You can simply put it on a sandwich with mustard. Sauté it and serve it on focaccia. Chop it up and folded into some mac and cheese or layer it lovingly in a lasagna. The possibilities of baloney are endless, provided your doctor hasn't ordered you to cut down on salt or whatever else is in baloney. But of course, we don't have to tell our listeners on Cape Breton, where baloney is a delicacy, as evidenced by a new community cookbook containing 33 baloney recipes that's now on sale with the proceeds going to foodbanks. It's the brainchild of Megan MacLeod, she's a photographer who does social media for the Pharmasave franchise that is selling the cookbooks. We reached her in Sydney.

NK: Megan, what happens when baloney goes on sale at one of the stores you work at?

MEGAN MACLEOD: Here in Cape Breton, when baloney goes on sale, people are lined up out the door and around the corner. And at least in our Pharmasave locations, we noticed that they were swapping their recipes for baloney and swapping you know, treasured baloney back story memories as well. So that's kind of where this project came from.

NK: Treasured memories. What is a good price there for baloney?

MM: Well, our price, we like to think, is the best in town, which is usually 11.99 or 12.99 for a two kilogram roll. So compared to some of our competitors we're doing quite well.

NK: And that's the regular price or the sale price.

MM: That is our regular price.

NK: So what is the sale price?

MM: Well, it depends. We usually will go as low as 9.99 for a two kilogram roll.

NK: Ok. I mean, that would go pretty far, I would say feeding a couple of folks.

MM: Yeah. We were very lucky in the summertime when we launched this 'Full of Baloney' project, we ran a contest where you could win baloney for a year, and it was sponsored by Maple Leaf Canada, and you would basically win two, two kilogram rolls every month for 12 months. And they actually helped us out so that we could promo it as low as 8.99 for a two kilogram roll that time.

NK: But even if you love baloney, that's a lot of baloney.

MM: That's a lot of baloney. Yes.

NK: Don't people get sick of it after a while.

MM: You would think. But it doesn't seem to be the case. And it freezes well. So you can stock up on it and use it as you need it, you know, through the cold winter months.

NK: Okay. That's an important, that's an important bit to mention. Were you a fan of baloney before diving in to this project, Megan?

MM: You know what, I'll be honest, Nil, I was not a big baloney eater. I hadn't had it in probably 10 years. And I guess my role in creating this cookbook was that I was going to be photographing all of them. So in order to photograph them, I also had to make them. And I said, Well, if I'm putting these all together in a cookbook, I need to know that they're good. So I went ahead and ate them all as well. [NK: Ok]. And was pleasantly surprised. You know, once we got into some of the dinner time menus for sure, recipes, they were quite good as well as the appetizers too. I have quite a few favourites throughout the book.

NK: Well we're going to go through some of them. I did see one of the photographs. Well, I saw several, but one in particular, it's a whole baloney roast and I just love the line under it. It's "Baloney's not as fancy as it sounds" or something.

MM: [laughter] Yeah, it was a rotisserie baloney cooked in the air fryer, actually, and it was phenomenal. It completely changes the taste of the baloney. And I actually ended up thin slicing off of that two kilogram roll and I used it on pizza. And I will probably never go back to pepperoni if I'm being honest. Yeah.

NK: Wow, Megan this has been life changing for you.

MM: It has. I will never be the same.

NK: And what about some of the other recipes?

MM: Well, I have to say my favourite recipe in the entire cookbook, which is a huge surprise to me, was actually the baloney stew. I had initially turned up my nose at it, thinking there's no way that this is going to be any good. And I made it and could not believe the flavour in it. It was absolutely astounding to me that, you know, that it was, baloney was the protein source in it. It was so good I couldn't get enough.

NK: Is baloney pork?

MM: It is. Well, it's a processed meat. But yes, if I'm not mistaken.

NK: And you made, so of these 33 recipes you mentioned a couple that you like. Is the stew your favourite or is there something else that you love?

MM: I think the stew is got to be my favourite. It's definitely going to be making a comeback to the colder winter months for my household, whether they like it or not.

NK: And you know, as you collected these recipes and these stories, you know, people sharing, as you said in the line-ups, when there's these big, when there are these sales. What kinds of things have people there told you about why it's so integral to the cuisine there?

MM: Well, a lot of it comes from bigger households. That's where we got a lot of our stories from. So some of the more seasoned generations here that we're, you know, exchanging stories about how, you know, my dad when he came home from the coal mine, I always looked forward to, you know, having baloney for dinner or our family of 12 used to get together and have this surprise baloney salad or baloney salad surprise. So, we got a lot of those stories, you know, big, big families who kind of relied on the cost effectiveness of baloney back in the day. And they remember it fondly, you know, spending time together as a family and enjoying it together. And that was really a big part of what this project was for us. It's about community and giving back. And we thought it's really important for us to include those back stories so, that it's kind of a product created of the community for the community. And then giving back to the community as well through the donations of the purchase price of the book.

NK: And you mentioned the charity component. A hundred per cent of the proceeds are going to local food banks. How much money raised so far?

MM: So far, I don't have the exact count right now, but I know that we're in the ballpark of 130 books sold out of our initial order of 200. And we were just discussing earlier today about placing another order so that we can fill the demand that we're noticing coming in this week. We just launched last week. So we're really picking up some traction now that the word is getting out there.

NK: And how much is each book?

MM: They are 20 dollars on the nose.

NK: Ok. More expensive than the baloney. But the recipes keep giving.

MM: You can make 33 recipes though [laughter].

NK: We do a lot of stories throughout the year, of course, especially now about how hard hit foodbanks are and how much need there is. So what kind of response are you getting from people as they buy these books, knowing that it's for charity?

MM: It's very, very positive. We are seeing a lot of uptake from people who are interested in giving back to the community, and a lot of people are purchasing them as holiday gift ideas as well. So I've had a few people come up and say, look, I want 4 or 5 of them because I'm buying one for every aunt and uncle in my family kind of thing. And so people are really excited and they're, they seem to be very pleased to be able to take part in something that's going to have such a profound impact on so many in our community.

NK: Megan, thank you for this.

MM: And thank you, Nil. You have yourself a great day.

NK: You too.

MM: Thanks.

CH: Megan MacLeod created the 'Full of Baloney' cookbook. She's in Sydney, Nova Scotia.

[Music: Bass instrumental]

Wall Banana Auction

CH: It's so stupid, you're right. It's brilliant satire, you're right. It's hilarious. But it's also very serious. Totally. It's a thematically dense work, ultimately evoking the inevitability of death. Yes. It's a banana stuck to a wall with duct tape. Also, yes. Artist Maurizio Cattelan's 2019 piece 'Comedian', invites all these responses and however we respond, we're right, even especially if we're wrong. As we've discussed many times on this show, 'Comedian' is a work of art that is literally a banana stuck to a wall with duct tape. But it's also more than that. As writer and curator Francesco Bonami explained in a YouTube video.

SOUNDCLIP

FRANCESCO BONAMI: If you want to acquire a 'Comedian', you will receive a 14 pages instruction book. How to present 'Comedian'. So, don't think that you have a banana and a duct tape and you can do a 'Comedian'. You need to follow specific instruction, to hide from the floor, the direction of the banana. And that's what, makes the duct tape and the banana a work of art. Remember, it's not just a banana. It's a banana with the duct tape. The two things.

CH: He's right, but he's also wrong. Which is good. It is a banana and duct tape and an instruction manual. But it's also a price for all of the above. Mr. Cattelan once told the art newspaper, quote, "At art fairs, speed and business rain. So I saw it like this. If I had to be at a fair, I could sell a banana. Like others sell their paintings", unquote. And so he did. At Art Basel Miami in 2019, 'Comedian' sold for 120 thousand dollars U.S. Shocking everyone, including critics who complained that the banana had only cost Mr. Cattelan 30 cents, which missed the point. Which was the point. And coming up on November 20th, Sotheby's will auction off one edition of 'Comedian' in New York, and it's expected to fetch somewhere between 1 and 1.5 million dollars U.S. I know. But remember that outlandish price is part of the art. And your disgust or joy at the outlandish price is also part of the art. We are the art. In a way we are all bananas, stuck to walls with duct tape. And in a way, we're not. Is that true? Yes. Am I just saying it because I don't know how else to end this also? Yes.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Part 2: Trump Legal Implications, Raygun Retirement, Black Women Reaction, N.L. Ferry Baby, Sound of the Day: New Notre Dame Bells

Trump Legal Implications

Guest: Jessica Levinson

CH: This election was not just a big win for Donald Trump politically. It was also a big win for him legally. Mr. Trump is the first ever U.S. president-elect who is a convicted felon. Later this month, sentencing is scheduled in his case related to hush money payments. He's also been charged in other criminal cases as well. But his re-election has changed everything. Jessica Levinson is a professor at Loyola Law School and a legal analyst. We reached her in Los Angeles, California.

NK: Professor, I wonder what you think Donald Trump's lawyers might be feeling and thinking in light of their client's victory in the election.

JESSICA LEVINSON: Elation. I mean, not only did President Trump win the presidency again, but I also think he won a get out of jail free card. And when it comes to the criminal cases that are pending against him, the two federal cases and the one state case, I think those will really evaporate for different reasons. They will go away. Now, there has been one criminal conviction in a New York case, the hush money case. And I think that conviction will stand. But I don't think that President Trump will face any time in jail. And that was potentially true even before the election.

NK: Well, let's dig into those a little bit, bit by bit. The hush money case, for starters, as you mentioned, in Manhattan back in May, Donald Trump was convicted of 34 felonies, to remind our listeners. I believe on November 12th so, next week there's a motion to dismiss that will be heard based on that presidential immunity ruling at the Supreme Court. Sentencing itself is scheduled for later this month. What ultimately do you see happening when you have, think of those two dates in your mind and the implications.

JL: Yeah. So I think that the conviction itself will be upheld. Now, that is not a certainty, but I suspect looking at the Supreme Court's decision in the immunity case, in the fact that in my view, the hush money payments were made in President Trump's private capacity, not his official capacity, he would not enjoy any immunity from criminal prosecution. That then brings us to the sentencing date. As you said, we have 34 convictions here, but these are of the lowest level felonies in New York. And I think it is possible that anybody, not just Donald Trump, but let's say John Smith, if he was convicted, would not face any jail time. And I think that is just compounded by the idea that it would be, let's be honest, difficult for a state court judge to say, I am going to order the incarceration, even if very quick of the future president of the United States. I just don't see it happening.

NK: Do you see a scenario where it could happen, but in years, you know, 2029 or this is done now?

JL: I think that this is done. I think that the sentence will be handed down and I think the sentence will not include any time in prison. Everybody is saying I think, I think, I think in the sense that we've never been here before. We've never had a president-elect who is a convicted felon. And we just don't have a lot of guidance for what happens next. But my best guess is the sentence holds and there's no time in prison.

NK: Then there's the issue of special counsel Jack Smith. Donald Trump, as you well know, has promised to fire him, quote, "within two seconds" of returning to office. How much power does Trump have in actuality over these federal cases?

JL: Well, President Trump has so much power that Jack Smith, the day after the election started winding down those cases because he knows that the president can fire him. And I think everybody has acknowledged that a Trump victory means the end of those two federal cases. Now we can focus on them each in turn. As you know, there's the D.C. election interference case. There's also the Mar-a- Lago case dealing with the alleged unlawful retention of sensitive government documents. And those cases are in very different stages. But Jack Smith, I think, absolutely believes that the president can fire him and that's why he's making plans to wind those cases down right now.

NK: And the case in Georgia. Remind our listeners about that one and what kind of power, again, that Trump would have as president, it's not a federal one.

JL: It's such a good question because I think people feel like, well, that's a state prosecution in Georgia. Again, it's a case dealing with election interference in the wake of the 2020 election. And people feel like, well, President Trump would be head of the federal executive branch, what power does he have to make that state case go away? And I think there's really two answers. The first is that state case has kind of stalled out for a couple of reasons, but you would still need to apply the Supreme Court immunity decision to the allegations in that case. That's kind of hurdle number one. But I think more importantly. The argument will be that a state prosecutor cannot move forward with a criminal case against the occupant of the White House, against a sitting president, and that that would actually interfere with the president's federal constitutional duties to take care to faithfully execute the law. So for different reasons, I think all three of those pending cases will evaporate.

NK: Trump campaign spokesperson Steven Chung has said it is, quote, abundantly clear that Americans want an immediate end to the weaponization of our justice system, unquote. Is Donald Trump's election, in your view, proof that most Americans saw these cases as politically motivated?

JL: I think this election is proof that people voted for a variety of different reasons, to be honest. And I think we're going to be talking for years about what motivated people to go to the polls, either to vote against Kamala Harris and Joe Biden or for Donald Trump. But I think we should all be careful about taking whatever message we want to take away from this. I tend to think that people vote more based on issues, like the issues they said they voted on, the economy as opposed to criminal cases pending against a former president. I don't think that's what motivates most people go to the polls, I think is their own daily lives that motivate people.

NK: Professor, I thank you for your time.

JL: Thank you.

CH: That was Jessica Levinson, a Loyola Law School Prof and also the host of the podcast 'Passing Judgement'. She's in Los Angeles.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

Raygun Retirement

CH: For many, the enduring memory of this year's Olympics will be an athlete making the brave choice to hop around like a kangaroo. Australian Rachel Gunn, known as B-Girl Raygun, attracted some praise for her unusual routine during the breaking competition. But she also attracted international bewilderment and mockery due to its unorthodox qualities. And now, just a couple of months on from the Olympics, Raygun has announced she will no longer be competing professionally. Due to the backlash she received. Ms. Gunn told Jimmy and Nath, morning show hosts on the Sydney based radio station 2DayFM. How she dealt with the criticism.

SOUNDCLIP

RACHEL GUNN: It's surreal and it's still like impossible to process. You know, the conspiracy theories were totally wild and it was really upsetting because, you know, I think I felt like I just didn't have any control over how people saw me or who I was, you know, who my partner was, my story, you know. And so, it was really upsetting for a number of different reasons. And people still don't listen and people still don't read. You know, the you know, there are statements that have come out from the AOC and AAP fact checking everything.

INTERVIEWER: Exactly, you came out you're ranked number one. That was after the Olympics as well wasn't it.

RACHEL GUNN: Yeah, I was ranked number one, and that was because I won the Oceania qualifier and it was taking into account competitions within a certain framework. But like, yeah, so it was really tough. But I just try and stay on the positives, you know, like this photo really helps me. I've also got another photo of like positive messages that people have sent me, and it's just like, that's what gets me through, you know, the people that have like, you know, you have inspired me to go out there and do something, you know, that I've been too shy to do. You've brought joy. You brought laughter. You know, we're so proud of you.

INTERVIEWER: Say in four years’ time, would you go, would you do the Olympics again? Would you...

RACHEL GUNN: No. [laughter]

INTERVIEWER: You wouldn't do it again? [cross talk]

INTERVIEWER: Do you continue to break?

RACHEL GUNN: I still break, but I don't compete. [You won’t compete again] I don't compete anymore. No, no.

INTERVIEWER: Was that, what was the thoughts go into the Olympics. Was it to keep doing it?

RACHEL GUNN: Yeah, I was going to keep competing for sure, but I yeah, that's, that seems really difficult thing for me to do now to approach a battle, [To keep pushing forward]. Yeah. I mean I still, I still dance and I still break. But you know, that's like in my living room with my partner?

INTERVIEWER: Is it sort of like potentially you can you've lost it before you even go out because people have an opinion about you already?

RACHEL GUNN: Yeah I think that the level of scrutiny that's going to be there. And you know, the, people will be filming it, it'll go online and it's just not going to mean the same thing. It's not going to be the same experience because of everything that's at stake.

CH: That was Australian breaker Rachel Gunn, better known as Raygun, announcing her retirement from professional competition.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

Black Women Reaction

Guest: Nyki Robinson

CH: Donald Trump's resounding victory on Tuesday night crushed the possibility yet again of a female U.S. president and crushed the hopes of Black women across the country. When Kamala Harris took the top of the Democratic ticket, they came out in force to support her. In fact, just hours after President Joe Biden announced he was stepping down. Tens of thousands of Black women joined a Zoom call to support the vice president's run. Black Girls Vote founder Nyki Robinson was one of them. Today, she's in Baltimore and processing the news of the Democratic nominees defeat. But first, let's hear what she told Nil back in July.

SOUNDCLIP

NYKI ROBINSON: I received a text message on Sunday afternoon from a young girl, and if that's okay with you, I like to read it [NK: Please] because that message inspired me. It says, hi, Nykidra, this is Laurie. I wanted to reach out and let you know I want in. This is a historical time and I'm too young to vote, but I want to be a part of it.

NK: Nyki, what would you say to that young woman and others like her today?

NYKI ROBINSON: You know, first I would talk to Laurie and ask her how she's doing right before, you know, telling them any piece of advice, just doing a temperature check, because I'll be honest with you, a lot of people, particularly Black women, Black girls, we're feeling discouraged, feeling hurt, anger, grief. You know, there's so many mixed emotions happening. So, first of all, how are you? And then after I would say, you know, to say to her, that just know that you are worthy, you are beautiful no matter what America said. And America has spoken. And some believe, despite the qualifications of a President Kamala Harris, um, Candidate Vice President Kamala Harris, that America decided otherwise, that they didn't feel that she was qualified enough or didn't want her. And so we don't want you to feel like you're any less than. But we do know as Black women, we do feel the pressure of having to be twice as good as the vice president said you know, the fight doesn't end and continue to fight for what you believe in.

NK: This is more than a political moment; is the sense I'm getting from people and from what you said there. This is a very deeply emotional moment. How are you feeling?

NR: You know, I'm okay. Yesterday, I just felt the need to rest because this has been a busy election season for many of us who are running organizations and my organization is a nonpartisan organization. We weren't saying, Hey, vote for this person, vote against this person or more importantly, educated voters. But I'd be lying to say most of our base are Black women and girls and they're hurt. You know, they're, you know, they're heartbroken. There were tears and a lot of disbelief. And so for me, I felt the weight of that, leading an organization of Black women and still wanted them to feel okay with the moment and allow ourselves to rest and also rejoice in what we did see in our lifetime of a Black women at the top of the ticket. We've never experienced that before. But unfortunately for some it just didn't pan out the way that many thought that it would pan out. And even though Vice President Harris didn't win, no one anticipated that the numbers would come in the way that they did and that the loss would be so significant.

NK: What went wrong, in your view? What or who do you blame for what happened?

NR: I don't think you know; I don't think it's time or the moment to blame anyone. Right. I think it's time to celebrate, you know, celebrate what we saw, celebrate the moment. But in hindsight, everyone wants to be the Monday morning quarterback, this should have happened, could this have happened? Absolutely. You know, people are saying, we blame President Biden because he should have gotten out of the race earlier. And I believe if Joe Biden had gotten out of the race, there's no way that I believe that a Black woman would have been the top of the ticket or we would have seen something as historical as this because of the timing. You know, we've heard, you know, rumblings early on that people were upset, didn't want her to be at the top of the ticket, even though she was qualified. So I don't think that we would have had that moment. So I want to play Monday morning quarterback, but I do want to take this as a moment for Black women and girls all over to just not give up and don't feel hopeless. But it's okay to rest. It's okay to feel the feelings that you feel. And when you're ready to get back and do the work and the work that's needed for our community, then you do on your time and not anyone else's time.

NK: I want to talk about what you see as the path forward, as you do the work you do and speak to other women, other young women as well. But, you know, there's and I hear what you're saying about not wanting to Monday morning quarterback or Thursday, Thursday evening quarterback at this stage. But in your mind, is there sort of a list building of what you think Democrats could and should have done differently.

NR: Moving forward I think Democrats should really, really pour into grassroots organizations that are out doing the mobilization and moving the voters. Nearly 20 per cent of Black men voted for Donald Trump. But it's still Black men and Black women who carried the Democratic Party no matter what the divisive language was and trying to divide the parties and the divide us as a community, which was very, very important. And we saw a lot of attention going into that. So, more, less, that we were more unified than others were instead.

NK: Are you worried that the, that how this all built and then collapsed, from your point of view and Kamala Harris's supporters point of view? Are you worried that it's going to turn people away from the process and electoral politics in terms of the kind of work they want to do?

NR: I think naturally people will be turned off by it, but it's our job to keep them engaged. You know, the organizations that are on the ground and, you know, that's often what people want. They don't want you to be engaged, they don't want you to vote no. That's why we have voter suppression, right? Because people say, Hey, your vote doesn't matter, you know, that's right don't come out and vote in two years. But it's our job to show them through, you know, show them the policies that are being passed and showing the numbers on how things, had things gone differently. We're now getting this policy versus that policy and really understanding the power of your vote and really hopefully getting more young, a younger generation engaged earlier, to understand what they're feeling and make sure we're resonating with them. And I think that's what President Trump's team did in some ways. They spoke to the American people differently. And so it's our job to speak with potential voters. It's my job is to speak to the Black girls and women who are having a hard time right now and not let them feel a hundred per cent discouraged. And in some part of it, get that encouragement back, get their motivation back. And then more importantly, we're going to get back out there to work. But it's ok to save ourselves first, because what we're seeing is that Black women are tired and we're tired of saving everyone and people are looking for us. But there's no one here to save us, there are no allies and being more and more of a force collectively within our community and be a stronger voting bloc or more importantly, demanding the policy that comes with our vote.

NK: Nyki, I appreciate your time. Please take care.

NR: Thank you.

CH: Nyki Robinson is the founder of Black Girls Vote. She's in Baltimore.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

N.L. Ferry Baby

CH: At this point, we're nearly an hour into the program, and after sitting still for this long, I admit I can start to lose. What's the word? Focus. So amid all the lovely postcards that you've sent in which surround me on the walls of the studio here. I've put up some inspirational posters as well. One reads, "Don't stop when you're tired. Stop when you're done". That one over there says, "Dance like no one is watching", which I do. And the one taped to the studio window reads, "It's not the destination, it's the journey". That one is especially helpful to me, but I don't think Lindsey Gale and Mason Devoe would agree with the sentiment. Last Friday, the Newfoundland couple were very, very focussed on their destination and on arriving at that destination before the arrival of their new baby. The pair were on a seven hour ferry ride from Port-aux-Basques, Newfoundland and Labrador to North Sydney, New Brunswick. And in the middle of the night weeks before her due date, Ms. Gale started having contractions.

SOUNDCLIP

LINDSEY GALE: Around 3:00 they started getting closer and closer together. And that's when I woke Mason and our good friend Nick up. And I told them that, Hey, I'm pretty sure I'm in labour.

MASON DEVOE: And I said, No, you're not.

LINDSEY GALE: He did.

MASON DEVOE: We were in the middle of the Atlantic.

LINDSEY GALE: We were in the middle of the Atlantic we were another four hours out. I was just really hoping that this baby was going to be born in a hospital, that we were going to make it to shore in time for delivery. Really.

MASON DEVOE: No. Lindsey, done a lot better than I did. Until she was right in labour she was calm, cool and collected because Lindsey's a paramedic herself. And when we got in, they called if there was any doctors and nurses on board. So then there was a man, there was actually a travel nurse from Cuba. He was a cardiac nurse and there was a mental health nurse. So there was nobody there that really had any experience. With delivering babies or anything. So I was really nervous because we didn't have any health care. So then we got in a room and they got the sheets and everything ready and we kept going and going, and I was time in her contractions, sitting with her. And then at the end of it, it was getting serious. The baby was coming. So they were kind of coaching her and telling her everything was okay and trying to almost keep, not keep the baby in, but try and relax her until the ambulance got there. And then I was emotional wreck because I was scared that I was going to lose both my girls because she was so early. We didn't know what was happening, really. We didn't know why she was in labour. So when they come and the paramedics, they dropped the gate and the paramedics ran on board and they rushed right up to us and they got there. I think it was two minutes and 30 seconds later that little Miley was born. She is excellent. She don't have a feeding tube. She's not on I.V. She spent a night in the room with us last night for the first night.

LINDSEY GALE: It does sound like we're going to be going back via the ferry. We have our vehicle over here and all of our stuff. So it's all got to come back. And she's coming back with us and I can't see why we wouldn't be taking the ferry. As long as she's stable and healthy. That's the plan.

CH: Lindsey Gale and Mason Devoe are the proud parents of Miley, who was born on the Marine Atlantic Ferry last week. They spoke to the CBC's Mary Catherine McIntosh from their hospital room.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Sound of the Day: New Notre Dame Bells

CH: One month from now, Notre-Dame Cathedral in Paris will reopen. And for the first time since the catastrophic fire in 2019, its bells will chime for Sunday mass. The original bells were destroyed when the spire collapsed. Today their replacements were brought in. One is the Olympic bell from the recent Paris Games, and it will hang alongside two smaller bells named Chiara and Carlos. All three were consecrated with holy water and a tree branch today in a ceremony outside the church. Our sound of the day is Notre Dame rector, Olivier Ribadeau Dumas and the head of the Paris 2024 Organizing Committee, Tony Estanguet ringing the bells.

SOUNDCLIP

Notre-Dame's Paris Olympics, Chiara and Carlos bells ringing.

Our Sound of the Day. The new bells at Notre-Dame Cathedral in Paris.

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

Part 3: White Blobs Update, Baseball Mud Research, Luggage Cart Theft, Encore: Grave Recipes, Message In A Bottle

White Blobs Update

CH: An update now on an update we brought you earlier in the week. That's when Memorial University chemistry professor Chris Kozak revealed the chemical composition of the mysterious white blobs that, As It Happens, has been tracking. Unexplained blobs that have been showing up on the beaches of Newfoundland. Professor Kozak had done some analysis and figured they were made of PVA. That's polyvinyl alcohol, a water soluble synthetic polymer used in everything from papermaking to 3D printing. But now, as part of his ongoing efforts to track down the blobs source, Professor Kozak has used one of the gizmos in his lab to break things down a little further.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRIS KOZAK: When we look at the smaller components, that is consistent with PVA, but also with synthetic latex rubber. So this is a mixture of synthetic isoprene and butyl rubber with PVA. So we were right in saying it's PVA, but it also has some synthetic latex rubber in there as well.

PAULA GALE: Have you heard any theories that make sense in terms of where this stuff could be coming from?

CHRIS KOZAK: I've definitely heard several theories. I've had some reasonable ones and some really out there ones. But among the reasonable ones, someone suggested it might be fluctuating agents that might have been used in the hydromets plants in Long Harbour, that I discounted because if it was used as a fluctuating agent in metallurgy it would contain some components of metals. There would be some metal, either particles or ions in there. I didn't see any evidence of that in my analyses. Another hypothesis is someone contacted me who was familiar with offshore oil and gas and said sometimes they would use a material that would be used to clean out the pipes on board either the tankers or the oil rigs themselves to sort of flush out any seawater or any other materials that might have potentially blocked the pipe. And sometimes they admit that this stuff would end up in the sea and sometimes it would end up actually going into the hold of the tanker and maybe the tanker would have expelled it. So, that is one possibility. That seems to line up the most.

PAULA GALE: You're becoming like this mystery blob expert, right? [laughter]

CHRIS KOZAK: Yeah. I never thought I'd see that on my CV, but I'm glad that I've been able to find the time in my busy schedule to do this. And my graduate students are happy to help out.

PAULA GALE: Now, what about, like media this story like went around the world?

CHRIS KOZAK: Definitely lots of media in Canada, so lots of the Canadian media outlets. But I've also spoken to someone for The Guardian newspaper. But I've definitely been contacted by some really out there media outlets as well. So people looking at conspiracy theories, believing this might be something to do with the wind turbine action, etc... So yeah, people have been coming up with quite a lot of hypotheses. As well as a lot of couch critics as well, sort of telling me what it is, despite me saying, well, the evidence does not support that.

CH: That's Memorial University chemistry professor Chris Kozak, updating Paula Gale, the host of CBC Radio's The Broadcast on his ongoing search to identify Newfoundland's mysterious white blobs.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

Baseball Mud Research

Guest: Doug Jarolmack

CH: Jim Bintliff talking to Nil last year about his family's baseball mud, which Major League Baseball has been using for decades. Doug Jarolmack knows a thing or two about mud. He does not know much more than a thing or two about baseball. But the geophysicist took a keener interest after a phone call he got from a sports reporter asking him to investigate the baseball mud. And that call led him and his colleagues to publish a paper on the substance this week. We reached Doug Jarolmack in Philadelphia.

NK: Professor, what exactly did that sports reporter want to know from you?

DOUG JAROLMACK: Yeah. So Matthew Gutiérrez was writing a story in the year 2019, and at the time, it was one of these moments where Major League Baseball was looking for a replacement for this mud. They're concerned about whether it's consistent through time because it's harvested from nature in an undisclosed location. And so, this reporter called me up and wanted to know why I thought the mud had special properties, if it did have special properties and if there was anything that I could tell him that had a scientific basis.

NK: Spread ability, adhesion and friction. Am I right? How did you measure those? What kind of tests did you run?

DJ: Yeah. And so it took us a few years to actually spin up the research to the point where we could answer that question definitively. And yes, you've exactly pinpointed the three principal mechanisms. So the spread ability is, a measure of that essentially is viscosity and how the viscosity changes as you push on it. This material behaves like a face cream or like a toothpaste where it appears to be solid in your hand. But when you smear it, it just spreads real thin. And we use the thing called a rheometer, which is kind of like a fancy stick blender that you can put into the sample and spin. And then you measure the force that resists the spinning. And that was when we did those measurements and found out that it was very, very shear thinning. In other words, that the faster you spin it, the less and less resistance it has to flow. The stickiness we measured using an atomic force microscope, which essentially is like a little pin or tip nanometre scale in size that you lower down to touch the surface. And then you pull it away and you measure the resisting force when you pull away that little tip. In order to measure the friction. That was a little trickier. We actually had to build a synthetic finger, and then we had to code it with whale oil. [NK: Oh my]. Which has a similar viscosity to your finger oil. And then we had to do these very precise and specific [inaudible] tests.

NK: This mud has, you know, just transfixed so many people, including yourself to this point. We heard Mr. Bintliff, Jim Bintliff you know, there's so much secrecy around the location, the source mud, what they add to it, all closely guarded secrets. Are you reluctant at all to lift the curtain on all of this?

DJ: Yeah. And so, you know, when we started this, it was definitely a curiosity driven project. And just to be clear, you know, we were not paid by Jim Bintliff. We were also not paid by Major League Baseball. This was essentially a hobby project. I mean, a rigorous one, but a hobby project. But the question started to be asked as we were working on it, like, hey, are you afraid maybe to put it more directly that you're going to put this family out of business? And we understand now how the mud works, how it does the spread ability, the stickiness and the grip. But why is another question because this mud is a very heterogeneous, you know, or mixed up material. It's got clay in it of different types. It's got sand in it, silt in it. These mud mixtures are very sensitive to the proportion of the ingredients that are in there. And I think that we were able to essentially confirm that how the pitchers and the players think this mud helps is true. But we're still a long way away from understanding exactly what it is about the ingredients that combine together to make the behaviour that we measure.

NK: So in the end, what do you think the MLB should do about the mud?

DJ: Again, you know, when we first started this research, you know, we didn't have an agenda or a particular answer to, you know, what people should do. However, we have come around after doing this work to having an opinion now, which is that Major League Baseball has made several attempts to replace this mud. They have partnered with Dow Chemical to try to pre-treat baseballs. And it's changed the ball field and it's changed the state of play in ways that Major League Baseball didn't like and they stopped the experiment. And so they're trying to replace this mud with synthetic materials. And we've come around, though, to this realization that they're worried about consistency of this mud. But it seems to us that this mud is perhaps the most consistent thing. In the game in terms of the ball. Right.

NK: So if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

DJ: Yeah. Yeah. And then. Second, this is maybe a little bit more philosophical, but, you know, it's 2024 and a lot of people are looking to replace synthetic materials and pollution with natural or at least nature inspired materials. And here in this almost 90 year old baseball tradition, we have a material that does just what the players want. It is replenished with the tides, and there's virtually no pollution associated with it. And so, actually, I think that this baseball tradition is an example of a sustainable material that we can draw inspiration of, not just to preserve it in baseball, but actually maybe to expand uses of materials like this.

NK: And it's a family business on top of all of that.

DJ: And it's a family business and it's a family business. And so, I did want to make a note because you played that conversation with Jim Bintliff that I've never met him before, and we were careful to not reach out to the family while we were doing our studies. You don't want to be biased by speaking to the manufacturer. But once our study was published earlier this week, I sent an email to him and I told him, you know, working with this material has been amazing. And we've come to appreciate not only how amazing the mud is, but the deep working knowledge that him and his family have in processing this mud because it has just the right amount of water and sand and clay in it to spread like skin cream. But once it dries, the grips like sandpaper, the processing that they have done, you know, shows to me that they have an exquisite working knowledge of how to process this material to give these desired behaviour. And he responded and emailed the next day. And that's the end of all the attention we've gotten. His response meant the most to me because he said, I just looked at your article and read it and you've helped me understand why this mud is so magic. And so it meant the world to me to get that response from them.

NK: It is magic. I'm glad you used that word. I'm so glad we could speak, Doug. Thank you.

DJ: Yeah. Thank you. This has been great.

CH: Doug Jarolmack is a geophysicist and professor at the University of Pennsylvania. We reached him in Philadelphia.

[Music: Piano instrumental]

Luggage Cart Theft

CH: It's red and white. It has a metal frame and wagon wheels. And for over a decade, that antique luggage cart has been on display outside the Westbank Museum and visitor Centre in West Kelowna. It's been there so long that I assume passersby probably didn't even notice it anymore until it got stolen. Jeremy Ryder is the Executive Director of the museum. This morning he gave a more thorough description of the purloined cart to the CBC.

SOUNDCLIP

JEREMIAH RYDER: It's almost like a kind of a wave shape, so it's higher on each end and lower in the middle. So when you put the luggage in, it would stay in the middle part as you moved up and down instead of falling off. So it is a unique piece. It certainly doesn't look like a standard cart that a lot of us would be used to and it looks old, there's no, there's no mistaking that.

CHRIS WALKER: And luggage from where to where? Like where would this, obviously not the airport. Where would this have been used?

JEREMIAH RYDER: It's an older cart that would have been used something like at a railway terminal. But of course, West Bank didn't have railway service ever. So, it would have been something similar to what was used on at the docks, down on Okanagan Lake. For boats, like the S.S. [inaudible] Moose or some of the other ones that went up and down.

CHRIS WALKER: Okay. So, it's been sitting out there sort of decorative outside your entrance for 10 years or so. But when did this go missing? And what do you know about the circumstances of its disappearance?

JEREMIAH RYDER: Those are all big questions for us. It's been gone for several days, perhaps longer. We're not entirely sure when it went missing, nor how, we do believe that it was just wheeled off. It would be awkward to load this into a pickup truck or minivan or anything like that. So we do think somebody just walked off with it.

CHRIS WALKER: Ok. Now, a stolen luggage cart might not seem like a big deal to some people. What does a loss like this mean in the grand scheme of things to a public institution like your museum?

JEREMIAH RYDER: Well, for one, we are a not for profit, so anything that's removed from our collection is a loss because we don't have a lot of finances. We don't have a lot of resources in that regard. The other thing is, is that museums act as a public trust. We are given items of the history and of the area in trust that we will display it, that we will care for it and just show it to people. And it's given from locals and from, and from people who are cleaning out their family's history. So it's given in trust to us. So it's like breaking that trust when somebody removes something from us.

CH: Westbank Museum Executive Director Jeremiah Ryder speaking with Chris Walker, host of Daybreak South in B.C.

[Music: Lo-fi instrumental]

Encore: Grave Recipes

CH: Earlier in the show, Nil spoke to Megan MacLeod from Sydney, Nova Scotia, creator of the 'Full of Baloney' cookbook, which is full of baloney centric dishes. The recipes within that volume demonstrate the many creative and unusual ways to incorporate the glorious cold cut into dishes like stews, burritos and sandwiches. And they were all submitted by Cape Bretoners who have a special connection with baloney. The project reminded us of Rosie Grant, who also collected special recipes while she was an intern with the Congressional Cemetery in Washington, D.C. She had been coming across recipes etched into gravestones, so she decided to make them and share her results on TikTok. Ms. Grant spoke to guest host Helen Mann in 2022.

SOUNDCLIP

HELEN MANN: Rosie, at this point, you have a go-to gravestone recipe?

ROSIE GRANT: Go-to? Gosh, that's a great question! The one that I have remade before is "Ida's Nut Roll", which is like a jam nut roll that you roll up, bake, and then you sprinkle powdered sugar on. That, I think, is my favourite.

HM: Oh, it sounds actually quite nice. So, how did you… how did you find out that people put recipes on gravestones?

RG: So, I interned at Congressional Cemetery in Washington, D.C., and that's where I even heard about that people would, when they passed away, they put the family recipe on their gravestone as like their last marker. So that's how I heard about it. As far as learning to cook through it, I feel like it became my quarantine hobby. Like, I would get on to TikTok, or I would go for a walk in the cemetery, just to like do something that's outside and, like, easy to social distance. And I started cooking during quarantine, so it kind of combined all three of my hobbies.

HM: So, when you first saw one of these recipes on an actual gravestone, what did you think?

RG: I first was like baffled. Like, I was like, why would someone do that like that? Like, that's so… especially because when you see most gravestones, they're, you know, names or organizations they belonged to or things that they loved. And a recipe is such, like, a tactile thing. Like, it's… it's such a beautiful thing to share. At first, I was like, why would someone do this? And then, my second thought is, I have to cook through this because it's… you know, it's meant to be shared maybe with a loved one, or it's like it's a very kind of giving thing. And it feels very honestly like a lively activity, considering it's on a gravestone.

HM: So, how do you go about finding these? You must have some methods for tracking them down?

RG: Ultimately, all of them have been crowdsourced on the Internet. Like if you just Google different recipes, you can find them. Like, they've spanned really throughout the whole U.S. from like New York, Brooklyn, New York, all the way to Nome, Alaska, and down to Mississippi. And then the furthest one away has been in Israel. I found two in Israel. And those are just the ones that I've found. For all I know, there's even more out there.

HM: So, you're not just cooking U.S. recipes?

RG: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The nut roll actually was an Israeli one.

HM: Oh, that's so neat! Now, tell us about some of the other 10 recipes that you found.

RG: The one in New York is a spritz cookie recipe. And part of the fun of it, [chuckle] I would not say I'm a great cook. I've learned a lot in the process. Like, I didn't know that a spritz cookie was a specific kind of a cookie-cutter. So, it cooks it out in these gorgeous shapes. And the recipe itself is just the ingredients. So, when I posted it on TikTok, a bunch of people commented saying like, oh, my grandmother used to make it. And you should get a spritz cookie cutter. And this is what they look like. And this is how I made it or my family makes it. So that… that was a particularly special one. It was a woman who worked for the post office. There's these no-bake cookies in Alaska that were really darn good. All of them have been desserts. Very much a lot of a sweet tooth. A lot of family cookie recipes. I made a fudge. I believe that one was in Utah. And I messed the fudge up, but it was still very tasty. [laughing]

HM: So you mentioned that with the spritz cookies, you just had the ingredients and not the method. Is that… is that what usually happens? Do people actually put down what to do on the gravestone or just what you got to put in?

RG: Yeah. Unfortunately, I just came from a funeral, so I can… I can say this very, very close to heart. It's quite expensive to put together a headstone and do the funeral services and whatnot. So these people who, all of them women, have really committed to getting their recipe being put out there. And so, I think because of that, they not always have the most detail because they're not always, like, chiselled onto the grave itself. Some of them are literally just the ingredients. So, in the case of the spritz cookie, it's literally… it looks like an open book, and then just has the ingredients written out on it, which is so cool. But definitely, you have to learn a lot on the process. Versus actually, the nut roll itself had all of the instructions written out. So, I guess the kind of like recipe making part of it has really come from after posting about it and people saying their own process of how they cooked through a similar recipe.

HM: Can you tell me about the Cool Whip lady?

RG: [laughing] Oh yeah! So that's the Nome, Alaska one. Honestly… so, okay, that one is so fascinating to me because it's on this, like, this small Nome Alaskan cemetery. It's like if you even look up like "things to do in Nome", the Cool Whip gravestone… these are the no-bake cookies. And they literally on the side of it have the Cool Whip logo on it. [HM: chuckles] I guess you could just kind of throw some Cool Whip on top of it. I'm not sure if Cool Whip sponsored this gravestone, and that's why they were able to do it that way? But they literally have the logo on the tombstone.

HM: Oh my gosh! What have you discovered about the women behind these recipes?

RG: They all sound wonderful! Like, very giving people. They all loved to cook. They all had a signature dish that they would bring to family gatherings. Like, the family member where you get excited when they come because they would bring the no-bake cookies or they'd bring the Christmas cookies or the spritz cookies or whatever. Like, it was a very beloved recipe. They all sounded like, you know, very lovely family people, very giving. I mean, even literally, their last testament to the world is the gift of a recipe.

HM: Mm-hmm. Now, you said you'd just come from a funeral. I understand it's your own grandmother's funeral that you were at today.

RG: Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, she lived… 97 years old.

HM: Oh!

RG: Fabulous long life. I was actually named after her. So this is Rosemary Grant, the first.

HM: Oh!

RG: So, it's been a very kind of, like, thoughtful time, very reflective, but also kind of beautiful.

HM: So, given your interest in these… these gravestone recipes, and just thinking about the legacy of food, is it changing how you're remembering her a bit?

RG: Absolutely. I think because I personally have always been very afraid of death. I've always thought of the funeral necessarily as, like, just, like, end of days and, you know, just a very sombre time. And I think cooking through these recipes has changed my perspective a lot of, like; it's also a reflection of the beauty of their lives, of happy memories, of getting together over a meal or cooking together. And so, it's really made me appreciate the, like, celebration side of things.

CH: That was Rosie Grant, speaking to guest host Helen Mann in 2022.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Message In A Bottle

CH: River Vandenberg is an explorer. He's also a kindergarten student at St. John the Baptist Catholic Elementary in Bolton, Ontario. And luckily for his explorations, the school is just a few blocks from Lake St. Clair, which is where River and his grandmother Michele were earlier this month when he made a major discovery.

SOUNDCLIP

RIVER VANDENBERG: Sunday at the beach.

MICHELE VANDENBERG: Yes, we live very close to the beach and spend a lot of time down there. And we were down at the beach. He was hopping through, from sandbar to sandbar.

RIVER VANDENBERG: And somewhere on the rocks I saw it heading in, I saw the, I saw the big wave pushing, pushing it in.

MICHELE VANDENBERG: Ended up over by the jetty, which is kind of a break wall between the beach and the river and found the bottle and thought it was a treasure map.

RIVER VANDENBERG: I thought it was a map to a grave digger or something.

AMY DODGE: But it wasn't a map. What was it?

RIVER VANDENBERG: A letter.

MICHELE VANDENBERG: Opened it up, read the letter, and it was from a grade four student here at his school, St. John the Baptist. There was no date on the letter, so I thought maybe this year, maybe last year at most. So, we sent it to school. His teacher contacted us later that day and said that was from 1998. I was shocked. I had no idea they sent it in and tracked it down to the owner. Apparently it's been floating around for 26 years. Oddly, it came right back to where they let it go, to be found by someone from the same school.

CH: River Vandenberg and his grandmother, Michele Vandenberg, speaking with Amy Dodge of CBC Windsor. And Amy tracked down Makenzie van Eyk, who wrote that letter 28 years ago when her name was Makenzie Morris.

SOUNDCLIP

MAKENZIE VAN EYK: Okay. A letter in a bottle. This letter is coming from Makenzie Morris and I go to St. John the Baptist School. I am in grade four in Mr. St. Pierre’s class. My letter is about water in the Great Lakes. We read a book called Paddle to the Sea. It was a very good book. The story was about a little boy who carved a paddle person out of wood and put it in the water and it travelled through all the Great Lakes. Do you know that all the Great Lakes spell homes? I thought that was pretty cool. I learned at school that water has to go through water cycles to get all the bad stuff out, like germs and lots of other things. The water has been there since God created the world. Isn't it funny to think that you might be drinking the same water Jesus did? P.S. Please contact us at St. John the Baptist School. From: Makenzie Morris.

AMY DODGE: Do you remember writing it?

MAKENZIE VAN EYK: Absolutely. I remember writing it. And then he had us seal the bottles in wax. So I think that process really stuck with me.

AMY DODGE: And not only that, but your daughter's in the same grade that you were in 26 years ago when you sent it. Do you think that has some significance to you?

MAKENZIE VAN EYK: I do.

MAKENZIE VAN EYK: I think it's the coolest thing ever.

AMY DODGE: Yeah. Tell me about it.

SCARLET VAN EYK: Well, my teacher said, like, she read the note but didn't say the name. So then she read the whole note. And then at the end, she told the whole class the name. And my mouth completely dropped. And everyone was like, Who's that? Who's that? I was like, my mother.

CH: That was Scarlet van Eyk, who's in grade four at St. John the Baptist Catholic Elementary in Bolton, Ontario, talking to Amy Dodge. Before her, you heard Makenzie van Eyk reading the message in a bottle that she wrote when she was in grade four at that school. A bottle that was found 28 years later by a kindergarten student at that same school.

[Music: Theme]

CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

[Music: Theme]

The AIH Transcript For November 07, 2024

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