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The AIH transcript for December 26, 2024

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NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I’m Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: We stan correcters. A lot went wrong in 2024 -- but tonight, we're going to focus on stories of people who set out to set things right.

CH: Making a splash. In 2015, a Dutch woman was fined for peeing in an alley in Amsterdam. And became a heroic crusader for new public bathrooms downtown -- even though she could have done squat.

NK: At their nitwits' end. A history buff reminds the British public of their proud heritage of insults -- and warns that if people don't start using them, some disses will be diss-continued.

CH: Landscape mode. We don't know what's behind her smile, but we also didn't know what countryside was behind the Mona Lisa herself. And then an art historian told us where it's at.

NK: Total eclipse of the harp. As we've all learned when we tried to text someone a harp emoji, there was no harp emoji -- until a plucky duo proved instrumental in changing that.

CH: And...spot check. A memorial to the Brontë sisters at a British church was missing the crucial diaresis over the E. So our guest went to bat for the author team.

CH: As It Happens, the Boxing Day edition. Radio that's just glad they gave her the benefit of the dot...s.

Part 1:

SOUNDCLIP

BOY: Good morning, sir.

EBENEZER SCROOGE: Tell me what day is it?

BOY: What day? Well, it's Christmas Day, of course.

ES: Christmas! Christmas! Then I haven't missed it. The spirits must have done everything in one night. Santa Buddies: The Legend of Santa Paws, take stock, and consider what we can fix in the world. And on this edition of As It Happens, we're going to look back at the year that's almost over -- and revisit stories about people who set out to set things right. People like Mary Lattimore, who took bold action because she was so outraged.

SOUNDCLIP

MARY LATTIMORE: I wouldn't say outrage, but I was missing it. It was definitely absent. Like all of us harpists had talked about in conversation, like, why isn't there a harp emoji?

CH: Okay, she wasn't outraged, per se. But she did take action -- as did Myko Clelland, who is committed to improving the discourse in the U.K.

SOUNDCLIP

MYKO CLELLAND: Drip, toss pot, pillock, nitwit, prat, scalawag, git and numpty. A wonderful cornucopia of exciting ways to insult the person next to you.

CH: Okay, so not "improving the discourse" in the sense of making it less combative, necessarily. But improving the way people insult each other! And, of course, there was Geerte Peining -- who didn't know it was illegal, and wasn't aware of getting a fine.

SOUNDCLIP

GEERTE PEINING: So actually, I know it is illegal and I was aware of getting a fine, of course.

CH: I really… I really should have taken some time to listen to those interviews again before I said any of that stuff. But you know what? It's never too late! We all learned that from Puppy Paws. So let's set things right by listening to them now! Starting with Geerte Peining. Who -- as we heard -- just had to pee in an alley in Amsterdam, in 2015. And got a fine. It could have just stayed a small thing. But you know how it's said that when a butterfly flaps its wings in India, it eventually causes a tornado in Iowa? Well, when Ms. Peining emptied her bladder in that alley, it eventually became a roaring, frothy river of protest that -- nine years later -- caused Amsterdam to spend millions of euros on better bathroom facilities. Nil spoke with Geerte Peining at the end of April.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Geerte, new public toilets -- we hear -- are now on the way. How long before they're installed?

GEERTE PEINING: They're coming in October '24. Or -- actually -- this year in October. So a few months left.

NK: A few months left. Are you going to be first to try them out? Are they giving you that, you know, [GP chuckles] privilege or right at this point, I guess?

GP: Not sure if I'm going to be there or celebrate it. Maybe if I'm close by, I will be.

NK: Our listeners heard a little bit about that night that started this back in 2015, but I wanted to ask you a bit more about it. First of all -- though -- did you think it would take this long? I mean, when you looked nine years in the future, [chuckling] did you think this is what you'd be talking about?

GP: No, not at all. Actually, I didn't even expect the big thing around it. It was something I wasn't. No, I wasn't expecting at all. [chuckling]

NK: And that night in 2015, did you expect that you might get €140 ticket -- that's about $200 CAD -- for public urination?

GP: So actually, I know it is illegal, and I was aware of getting a fine -- of course. But yeah, I actually, had at that night no other choice than to pee in the alley.

NK: Yeah. I mean, nobody really wants to, I would imagine. [GP chuckles] But you got to go, you got to go. How many, just describe the landscape for us in terms of public restrooms for women in particular, compared to what was available for men at that time? What was available?

GP: So -- at that time -- there were, 35 urinals for -- yeah -- people who can pee standing up. And there were two or three public toilets for everyone. So -- yeah -- there was not enough, I guess. [chuckling]

NK: Yeah. I'll never, I'll never understand it. And it's, it's pretty universal that, that, lack of balance -- let's say -- with the different kinds of, of restrooms. You decided to, to fight that ticket -- as, as some might. The judge didn't reduce the fine but said you should have used the public urinal that was available at the time.

GP: Yes.

NK: And said -- quote -- it may not be pleasant, but it is possible. End quote. What did you think of that suggestion?

GP: I thought it wasn't possible. And it's still not possible for people who cannot stand up peeing -- pee stand up. [laughing] Sorry.

NK: Yeah. I'm learning, [chuckle] I'm learning a lot about parts of Amsterdam I did not know. But the public urinals there are called pee curls, right?

GP: Yes. Yes.

NK: So they're a spiral-shaped steel stand. There's a drain inside. I've seen a picture, but. Yeah, can you describe it a little more for us? I mean, how exposed or not [both chuckle] are people as they're standing there?

GP: So if you're standing, you are kind of hidden because you only can see, until your shins. Is it your shins?

NK: Um-hmm.

GP: I think so. So you can see part of the leg and you can see the head of the person standing up. But, if you squat to pee, yeah, you can see everything -- I guess -- if you --

NK: Yeah.

GP: Yeah, the the curl isn't --

NK: Yeah, it's not designed for, [both chuckle] for a seated situation..

GP: Position, yes.

NK: Like any urinal I've seen. I'm not even sure, yeah, it's, it's ludicrous -- let's be honest. I don't know how that judge expected you to be able to use that one. There was reaction as well to your story even at that time -- and that suggestion from from the judge at the time -- right? How were people reacting?

GP: People were reacting that it definitely is impossible. And, and people were trying to pee at a plaskrul -- so it's the pee curl in Dutch. And then, there was a kind of protest and people were trying it, but they also showed that it wasn't possible at all. [chuckling]

NK: And also messy -- I would say. Not, not any, in an alley -- I would imagine. I haven't had to -- fortunately -- but I would imagine it's not that much neater [chuckling] that you had to go in an alley.

GP: Actually -- in an alley -- it stinks less because the pee curl is really stinky. [NK gags] If you walk by, it stinks. So -- in an alley -- there is less smell. [chuckle]

NK: That is an endorsement for alleys -- if I've ever heard one. [GP chuckles] Smells, doesn't smell as bad as a pee curl. Tell me the Dutch name again for pee curl.

GP: It's plaskrul.

NK: Okay, I'm going to not that.

GP: So it crosses, "plas" is "pee". And then, "krul" is "curl".

NK: Noted for -- hopefully --

GP: When you're in Amsterdam. [chuckling]

NK: Next time I visit Amsterdam. So these new toilets -- as you mentioned -- are coming in the fall. We don't know how many yet. They are going to be wheelchair accessible. Are you pleased with what you've seen and heard of the design so far?

GP: Yes -- actually -- I am. They are also self-cleaning. So after every toilet use, they are self-cleaning. And they clean everything like the seat, seating, and the floor, and the walls, and everything.

NK: Amazing.

GP: So it's kind of futuristic toilets. [both chuckle]

NK: Better than an alley -- it sounds like.

GP: Definitely.

NK: Will they have a cool name, too?

GP: I actually don't know what the name would be.

NK: Maybe they need to name them after you.

GP: Hmmm.

NK: No? You'd like --

GP: I'm not sure about that yet! [both laugh]

NK: I'm sure a lot of people see you as a hero. But how do you feel after all these years being, you know, this, this advocate for urination equalities?

GP: Yeah. So it is -- in the beginning -- it was a funny topic because it was like, oh, peeing! Ha ha. But -- in the end -- everyone's like -- oh yeah, of course -- there aren't enough toilets for everyone. So it became a serious thing. And now, I'm also proud that the toilets are coming.

CH: Geerte Peining, talking to Nil in April about her successful fight for "urination equality". More toilets in downtown Amsterdam: that change is overdue. Moving to a different note in a performance of a John Cage piece, which began 23 years ago and will end 616 years from now? That change was precisely on time. On February 5th, at a church in Germany, an organ changed chords for the first time in two years. That organ is playing the longest, slowest composition ever: Organ2 / As Slow As Possible, by Mr. Cage -- a performance that began in 2001 and is scheduled to end in 2640. So, you know: you'll need to take bathroom breaks. Rainer Neugebauer is a member of the John Cage Organ Foundation. Nil spoke to him in February.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Rainer, after all of that time, all of that anticipation, it could have been disappointing. How did it sound?

RAINER NEUGEBAUER: Oh, it's sound, a little bit fuller. And a little bit, something a little bit warmer. Yes, it was a very magic moment for me.

NK: Let's talk about the organ, because it... Someone is not sitting there, obviously, for decades. Holding the sound there, holding the chords. So, how does it work?

RN: This is not, a full organ. Yes. Because we have no money, it's, a little, wooden, instrument. Yes. With only three keys or three pedals. Yes. By an organ. It's very simple. The longer the pipe, the deeper, ... the tone is deep. Yes. And the high pipes are very small. Very short.

NK: Just to be clear, you are using sandbags?

RN: Yes, yes. The on the three, keys. Yes. It's... They look a little bit like, very old, keys in England that people say pedals. Yes. Something like, wooden spoon in the kitchen. Yes. And, there are the sandbags. And in the sandbags are one of the little stones there on the ground of the church. Yes.

NK: The title "As Slow As Possible" ASLSP. it's very much open to interpretation. So, why interpret it so literally?

RN: Yes. It's... First, you must know that this piece was written for, piano, and it's called only ASLSP. And this was for a piano competition for the semi-final. In a very famous, piano competition. And it should be at least only 5 or 10 minutes. But Cage was not a friend of competition, so first he said, oh, ASLSP means for me, at first as slow as possible. And on the other hand, it's, reference to the last chapter of, Finnegan’s Wake, the second novel from James Joyce, literary historians and literary, theorist, interpreted as, something like, soft in the morning. So, it's contradictionary on the one hand, as slow as possible. It's very, very long. And on the other hand, soft.

NK: So, this officially started in 2001, but there was no sound until 2003.

RN: No, there was a sound. There was no sound by pipes. It was only the sound of the bellows. And this is, for Cage, it's also sound. For Cage all things sounded. And he makes no difference between voice and sound. Yes. On the one hand, he wanted that we hear new this sound. Yeah, with open eyes and empty mind. And the second is he wants that we or he wants to free sounds. Free sounds from interpretation, from meaning, from intention, from, hierarchies. Yes. Good sounds or bad sounds or something like this. Don't ask what does it mean? It means nothing. It's only sound and you can enjoy it.

NK: So, the next date for fans to mark on their calendar is the 5th of August 2026. But ultimately this project is supposed to run until. 2640, 616 years from now. Do you think it's actually going to last that long that people will keep this going?

RN: Oh, I don't know it. Yes. And there are many things in the world, who make me not sure that it will be, going, until 2640 sometimes, like, climate change, sometimes like, a war, sometimes like right wing parties who are against, foreign music who came from outside in Germany. Yes, from America and something like this. Maybe it's too hot there or too wet. The roof of our church was wet, four times in the last 20 years. Because in it, yes, because there was a stormy weather. But on the other hand, I think, in the year 2620 there are the people, they have 20 years to the end of our project, to the end, when it works like we planned it. Yes. Right. And, maybe they say, oh, that's not as slow as possible. We can do it a little bit slower or we can do it one more repetition or something like that. I don't know it. I'm open for it, and I hope will recognize something of this in the year 2640.

CH: Rainer Neugebauer is a member of the John Cage Organ Foundation. He talked to Nil in February about the latest chord change in that piece, which will continue for another 616 years. And if you're curious, the chord changed from this --

[chord #1]

CH: Which had been playing for 2 full years -- to this:

[chord #2]

CH: I'm… I’m just going to say it: that is not, like, a fun piece of music. Still, it fits with tonight's theme of putting things right: it was time to change the chord, so -- no matter how attached they were to the delightful previous chord -- they dutifully did so. And now, that chord will be the important background music until 2026. And speaking of important backgrounds, many is the time we all have wondered: what is that amazing landscape behind the Mona Lisa? Well, few is the time I've wondered. But this question was apparently on a loop in the minds of art historians, driving them to the brink of madness. Yeah, yeah, there's some woman in the foreground with a weird expression, but the main thing about the painting is where are those blurry trees? And now, Ann Pizzorusso has put their minds at rest. She's an art historian and a geologist. And to solve this mystery that has plagued four to seven people for some period of time, she had to combine those disciplines. And Nil spoke to Ms. Pizzorusso in May.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Ann, I know you've just returned to Naples from Lecco. This is the location you believe the Mona Lisa was situated. Just paint us a picture of the Mona Lisa's background for people who may not recall it.

ANN PIZZORUSSO: Yes. Well, it's in the southwestern Alps. And it's a very interesting place because 250 million years ago, there was a tropical sea there like the Caribbean. And all of this coral kind of solidified into a limestone and then a rose. So you have all of these rocky cliffs made of limestone, and then you have also glaciers came down and scoured out these long finger lakes that ribbon through the back of the Mona Lisa with these large sawtooth mountains coming out of the background.

NK: It sounds beautiful, and it is beautiful when I looked back at images of the painting. But -- you know -- there's so much focus -- rightly so -- on the Mona Lisa herself. What made you want to focus on the background and dig into this? Because you've had this idea for 20 years now?

AP: Yes. Well -- actually -- [chuckling] the figures don't interest me, to be honest. [NK chuckles] What happened is by using geology as an analytical tool, it opened up the art world to me because while I couldn't comment on brushstrokes or figures, I could certainly look at the rocks. Specifically Leonardo. I couldn't probably do it with too many other artists, but he, when he depicted natural objects, they were all perfect. So it's like looking at a photograph. And so, it's very enjoyable. So you combine that with the notes he made in his notebook, how he really was -- in my opinion -- the father of geology with his very advanced ideas.

NK: So when you, and those journals were key because 20 years ago -- as we said -- when you made this, this discovery, you decided to travel through Italy using his journal entries, retracing his steps, right?

AP: Exactly. What I decided to do was to take an area starting from Lecco and go up around the cities and the mountains surrounding the lake. However, I'm from New York, and I'm a city slicker. So I got there, I rented a car, I had all my notes, and it suddenly dawned on me that 500 years had passed, [laughing] and I couldn't see anything.

NK: Awe.

AP: So the next day, I got in my car again, and I went to a little coffee bar, and it had a sign for an alpine guide. So I hired him, and he was magnificent. He took me to all of these off-the-road places. And when we came back to Lecco that night, we said, look at this. This is the Mona Lisa.

NK: So you presented the findings -- finally -- after all this time at a conference in Lecco. What was the reception like?

AP: It was very well received because it's not only geologists that can see these things, but the average person can go there today or look on Google images. You can see it. But -- in the end -- what is a very unexpected thing happened to me was that I, I was able to really present Leonardo as a geologist. And in this day and age when we're so concerned about the environment, I just felt he's really making a statement for loving nature and appreciating nature. And if that's the one message that gets out, I'm really happy about it.

NK: There are other theories -- competing ones, as you well know -- though. In 2011, there was a claim that this painting is situated -- was situated -- in the northern Italian town of Bobbio. In 2023, there was another theory that it was painted in the province of Arezzo. Why don't those theories measure up in your view?

AP: Well, any time you're looking at something like this, it's a puzzle, and you need all the pieces. And I was very confused that people only looked at bridges. Bridges are very common in Italy -- antique bridges. So once you find a bridge, you have to understand whether Leonardo was in that area. Then you have to determine if the geology is correct. So these other hypotheses were lacking many elements. They had the bridge, but they didn't have the geology. They didn't have the water. There were various missing pieces.

NK: And you know what? I had never even noticed that there was a bridge or really anything. I've seen it, up close or as close as one can get the painting. And all I saw was her. So just -- you know -- our listeners may be thinking, there's a, there's a bridge there?! You know, there's --

AP: [chuckling] It's an afterthought.

NK: Yeah. But it, it, as you, as you describe everything else going on, it adds so many more layers to the painting. We spoke to another art historian -- his name is Martin Kemp. And he said that any effort to try to pinpoint a location is -- quote -- just fanciful. What do you say to that thinking?

AP: Well -- you see -- this is the problem that I've encountered in my quest. [chuckle] Everyone says that backgrounds in art is fanciful. And to a great extent, that's true. However, Leonardo is the exception. The key to authenticity for Leonardo is geological and botanical accuracy without fail. I have analyzed every painting in which he has had a rock in it, and it's perfect. That's why I say I think he wanted to get the word out that he was an environmentalist. He, he, he values the earth. [chuckling]I think I'm becoming an unwitting messenger for this.

CH: From May, part of Nil's conversation with art historian-slash-geologist Ann Pizzorusso -- who at last settled the question of the location of the background behind the Mona Lisa.

[“Mona Lisa” by Nat “King” Cole/crooning]

CH: Nat "King" Cole, with "Mona Lisa". Tonight, we're revisiting stories about people who set things right. Sometimes that meant fixing an existing situation. And sometimes, it meant fixing a non-existing situation. Such as the situation in which the harp emoji found itself. Or didn't find itself. As anyone who has tried to text a harp emoji knows, there isn't one. Well, there wasn't one -- before Theo Schear, documentarian, and Mary Lattimore, harpist, fought relentlessly, or fought with some periods of relenting, to bring one to phones everywhere. Nil spoke to both of them in September.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Theo, let me start with you. What made you decide what was the text or message you were sending that you thought enough is enough? I need a harp emoji and I need it now.

THEO SCHEAR: So, it actually started with me seeing Mary play at a festival by the river. It was this really magical performance. The harp was just so beautiful in the sunset. And I started listening to her music a lot and eventually was inspired to take harp lessons myself. And while I didn't stick with that, it was around the same time that I realized there was no harp emoji, and Mary could probably talk to this more than me. But I think the harp is actually a really, you know, universal instrument that maybe has different names all over the world but is used in different ways by lots of people. And that's what they're really thinking about. Is this relevant to many cultures around the world? Does it provide representation for cultures that aren't that represented? And as we found out that it does, Yeah.

NK: Mary, I will bring you in now. This all started because of you. Were you outraged at any point when you could not find a harp emoji? Was this even on your mind before he called you?

MARY LATTIMORE: I wouldn't say outraged, but I was missing it. It was definitely absent. Like all of us harpists had talked about in conversation, like, why isn't there a harp emoji? And I would say, like, it makes sense to have one because it's the oldest instrument or it's one of the very oldest instruments. And also, it can represent a feeling too, you know, it's not just an instrument, but it can symbolize like, yeah, heaven or like beauty or Yeah, or something like that. Like a little like a glissando in picture form or something, you know.

NK: Beautiful. So, he, yeah, he e-mails you. He didn't call you; I should say. He, Theo emailed you...

ML: Yeah, we've never actually met and person I don't think Theo, I don't think we've met in person, have we? Did we meet at the show?

TS: No. This is the first time we've even talked on the phone.

NK: Come on.

ML: Yea yea. Yea. Yea yea. On the radio. But yeah, I got this email and I am very happy to sign off on my endorsement of this emoji. It's very, it was like I feel like I'm very lucky to be the representative of us harpists. I would say I've gotten a lot of people just writing being like, yes, finally we have a harp emoji and we're even talking about having a little celebration when it comes out, in L.A., where I live. So that'll be really fun.

NK: That's, an emoji celebration party with your music sounds like a great party. So, five years, as you mentioned, this whole process took. Theo, 13 page proposal pitch that you put together. As you said that this is a hard thing to do. Only a few new emojis are introduced every year. So, what did you write? What did you say to make sure the harp was at the top of the list?

TS: I think it was written in the proposal is something along the lines of, you know, this is used in all these different cultures. It also represents culture of Ireland. I know they use that symbol a lot and it also has the connotation of this angelic Heaven thing. And you never know what people are going to use emoji for, you know, the eggplant emoji, but...

NK: [laughter] Whatever do you mean, Theo?

TS: [laughter] for example, with the harp emoji, it's possible people might use it to say, you're harping on, you know too long, stuff like that. So, it'll be interesting to see how people actually use it.

NK: Yeah, not the worst way that they could use it. What does it look like, Mary?

ML: I haven't seen it. Have you seen it Theo?

TS: So, it's interesting because the emoji in the proposal is really just a prototype that all the different platforms like Apple, Google, Samsung, they just adapt that and so, each platform has it's own version. And interestingly, I saw in the comments of the Pitchfork article or maybe the Stereogum article that people were complaining that the last three strings were all the same length, which isn't accurate. [laughter] So we'll see if the platforms catch that or not.

NK: Will you be able to live with that, Mary if the strings are incorrectly laid out?

ML: I'm fine with it. I'm just grateful that it exists at all.

CH: Documentarian Theo Schear and world-renowned harpist Mary Lattimore, talking on the phone for the first time with the help of As It Happens, in September.

[waltz music]

Part 2:

SOUNDCLIP

DAVID: You know, we talked about all the memories we have of this place. And I started thinking that mine were gone -- lost. And then, I realized that we're creating new memories all the time. And I would love to continue making new memories with you.

WILLOW: I would like that.

CH: The unforgettable moment in the classic Hallmark film, A Blue Ridge Mountain Christmas, when David has an epiphany: he was wrong to focus on being a partner at his law firm. By planning a perfect wedding at the inn he was planning to sell, Willow has reminded him that it's a truly special place -- and it's not too late for him to do the right thing, and take it off the market -- and also take himself off the market, by admitting he loves her. It took him a while -- you know David, so stubborn -- but he's finally going to put things right. And that's the focus of tonight's episode of As It Happens. We're looking back at interviews from the past year with people who set out to undo something that shouldn't have been done, or re-do something that was undone. People who put things right. People like history buff Myko Clelland -- who was insulted by his fellow Britons' diminishing ability to insult one another. And who didn't just sit there like a plonker -- but set out to re-educate people. Guest host Peter Armstrong spoke to him in May.

SOUNDCLIP

PA: Myko, the U.K. is known for this sort of fabulously rich insult culture, so this has got to be pretty big news. What are the actual insults that appear to be dying out here?

MYKO CLELLAND: So going down the list, we start with lummox. About 62 per cent of people under 28 have never heard of this. Bampot next -- 60 per cent. Blighter -- 54. Ninny -- 51. Cad -- 47. Drip, toss pot, pillock, nitwit, prat, scallywag, git, and numpty. A wonderful cornucopia of exciting ways to insult the person next to you.

PA: Numpty is a personal favourite of mine. I will admit to been, having been called a cad at a moment or two in my life. Some of those -- though -- I don't know. You know, bampot or lummox or some of these, and I'm, I'm sort of loathe to ask, but can you give us a demonstration of how to use some of these in a, in a sentence?

MC: Yeah. So lummox itself -- you said one of the biggest one -- it refers to a lumbering ox. It's first recorded in about 1825, and I love the onomatopoeic sort of sound from that. It's a bit of a joy about saying these things out loud. Some of them are local, and they've become national as people have shared them because they've enjoyed using them so much. And there's something about -- I think -- using these words. We don't have to put them into a sentence. I live in Scotland. We don't call these insults here. We call them nouns. [PA laughs] We could tie any of these together. We could spend all day going back and forth, but they just work best as little, short, sharp utterances -- just an exclamation of our annoyance. A quick you prat or you git is just enough to make anyone sit up and pay attention. And that's -- I think -- the joy of insults.

PA: And I was reading through the list, and there did seem to be a through line that almost all of them -- in fact, the vast majority of them -- are really just essentially ways of calling a person stupid or a bad person.

MC: Yeah, I think that's pretty fair.

PA: [chuckling] Yeah?

MC: I think we are excited about telling people how we feel. We've been insulting people -- other people -- yes -- ourselves even more as well -- since time began. We're not getting more polite. We're not losing our words when these disappear, there are new ones rising to fill the gap as well. But one thing I love to do, just to show you how easy is for these new words to come out of nowhere, there's something in the intonation or the way the English works, I think. You can think of any object, just look to your left or your right, and with the right intonation, start the sentence with -- you know -- you total or you absolute, and you've made a new one of your own that just doesn't sound too out of place. So I'm pretty sure if someone called me an absolute plant pot or a total door handle, I'd know exactly where their mind was. [PA chuckles] And that's really all insults are. They're just getting that frustration out. And if we can have more fun with it along the way to make ourselves feel better, then more so the better.

PA: The ability -- you're right -- there's a universality to how we insult each other. And I think you're quite right how we talk about ourselves sometimes. Is there something unique to the U.K. and the richness of that sort of insult culture there?

MC: Yeah, I think we have a very dry sense of humour. We direct it everywhere we can.

PA: Right.

MC: And in Britain, you'll find a hundred different ways to call somebody an idiot. And I think that's a fantastic testament to the richness of the culture, but also that creativity. It's probably better spent inventing things like the television or the steam engine, but I'm sure as soon as that television stopped working or the steam engine blew up the first few times, they invented a whole host of new insults there on the spot as well.

PA: You know, there are loads of, of old insults that have fallen out of the living language, right? It is a living thing. Do you have a list of ones that were lost long before this?

MC: Oh, definitely. The English language has this marvellous way of, of reinventing itself. And we're looking at a fixed point in time right now when we're looking at this list, there are those new words that rise. There are words that fall. And losing some of these words from recent memory isn't anything new. If we look back to the 1700s, those raucous, deliciously vile Georgians would call you anything they could think of. And if they couldn't think of it, they'd make something up. They could call you a long neck, which is an overly tall woman, a shabaroon ruin, which is someone who's poorly dressed, or one of my favourites -- just because of how fun it is to say -- a gulumpas, which is a clumsy person. If you've used any of those terms today, you might be looked on as pretty strange. They've come and gone, but they still give that same sense of emotion, and they still have that same thought behind them. And these are just a handful. There are thousands and thousands of words that have disappeared that just show how we've been doing this for centuries. So I think -- yes -- the way society changes also change the way we insult people. It's something that keeps coming around in full circle. But as you say, calling someone stupid -- I think -- is never going to die out.

CH: Myko Clelland -- director of content at the family history website, MyHeritage -- speaking to Peter Armstrong from Edinburgh in May. Mr. Clelland was doing his part to remind his people of their rich history of calling each other numpties, and other more obscure insults. And "diaeresis" sounds like it could be one. But in this case, omitting a diaeresis was the insult. In Poets' Corner in Westminster Abbey, there is a memorial to the Brontë sisters -- Charlotte, Emily, and Anne. And when Sharon Wright paid a visit to pay her respects, she was flabbergasted to find someone hadn't been paying attention: the name "Brontë" appeared three times on the memorial -- and in all three cases, it was missing the diaeresis. By which I mean, the requisite two dots over the E. Nil talked to Ms. Wright in September.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Sharon, as someone who has been deeply affected personally by this issue, I thank you for your service.

SHARON WRIGHT: You're welcome.

NK: Let's go back to this plaque when it was in a state that you and others were not happy about. What was wrong with it?

SW: For 35 years, the plaque has had the spelling wrong of the three Brontë sisters, and actually no one else has ever complained until I came along in January.

NK: I can tell you are very proud of your complaint.

SW: I am. Because it matters doesn't it. Well, you know. [NK: Yes]. How you spell Your name matters. That is your identity. That is, you. And what's been a bit surprising to me is how many conversations I've had to have about it. I said well, they're not Bront, they're Brontë and that was their name. We have all three signatures. That was their names.

NK: How did it go so long? How were these dots forgotten in the first place?

SW: Well, that's the question, isn't it. When I saw it and I thought, right, I'm not having this. So, I went and did some research in the Abbey archives and I looked all the correspondence from 1939 and the president, the Brontë Society had written the inscription instruction with all the diaeresis, I'm just going to say dot. But between that and appearing in the Poets Corner, they disappeared. And I said, What's happened? We don't know. We know that there were dropped off by the surveyor at the time, Sir Charles Pearce, but we don't know why. It doesn't really matter because this is just a happy ending, isn't it now?

NK: It is. And I love seeing the photograph of the perfectly, you know, circular dots put over the 'Ës'. Now, our listeners just heard me once again railing about the importance of umlauts, how much I love them. This is different. This is not an umlaut. So, in names like Brontë or Chloë, the two dots suggested two syllables. Correct.

SW: That's it, they just denote two syllables. So instead of saying Bront, which is what they read until yesterday, it's Bront-ee or Bront-aye, depending on how you say it. But it's two syllables and that's what the diaeresis does. But the thing is, if you go onto any English dictionary and they're describing the diaeresis, the example they always give is Brontë [laughter] like was in sort of weird cartoon or a gotcha. I was looking around thinking surely, surely, I am not the first person to say, you spelled three of our greatest writers names, wrong. But apparently, I was.

NK: And so how much work did it take? You know, so did you just go up to an attendant there that day and say, What's going on?

SW: No, I wrote to the Dean of Westminster, very nice man. He wrote back the next morning and said, I'm sure we can correct this. And then yesterday morning, before the visitors came in, I was there with two people from the Brontë Society. We were a bit teary; I have to say.

NK: Do you, did you love their work as well?

SW: The Brontë's? Yes, absolutely. I'm the editor of the Brontë Society Gazette. I also wrote the first biography of Mrs. Brontë, the mother of the Brontë's. It being, again, pretty much ignored for 200 years, like they were found under a bush or something. [laughter]

NK: This is. Yeah. This is a multilayered fight for you. It's a feminist fight. It's a literature fight. And it's...

SW: Women. Women's names even now is a big deal, isn't it? But back then, you know, they had to fight for everything that to write under sort of ambiguous pseudonyms. And then, you know, they didn't see their name on their own book. You know, Emily and Anne never even saw a good review of their masterpieces. So here we are celebrating them and spelling the name right. [laughter].

NK: That's pretty great. I love it. And we want to make sure we pronounce their name correctly as well. Not just the two syllables, because there are different pronunciations out there. What is the 100 per cent correct way to say their last name?

SW: Well, I wouldn't like to give a definitive, but I'm from Bradford like them. And I would say Bront-ee as if it was an 'I'. But some people said Bront-aye, as if it's, you know, an accent, so long as it's two syllables. But we know that the people of Haworth were the Parsonage is in West Yorkshire would have said Brontë, because the man who made Emily Brontë's coffin when he wrote in his order book and he wrote Emily Brontë with an 'I' so, he wrote it phonetically. And I think Brontë is correct. But then as a Yorkshireman, we always think we're right, frankly. [laughter]

CH: Sharon Wright -- with one dot over the i -- talking to Nil about getting two dots put over the E in "Brontë", at the Brontë memorial in Poet's Corner in Westminster Abbey. Punctuation is so important. If I omit commas from the sentence "My favourite things are cooking my cats and my family," I could be arrested. And if you say "gerrit in't bin" in Yorkshire -- with an apostrophe-T after "in" -- well, you can just imagine! [sarcastic laughter] Ha ha! I mean, right? Can you imagine? Can you imagine? Because I can't imagine. I don't… I don’t understand it. Fortunately, Rod Dimbleby, Chairman of the Yorkshire Dialect Society, explained the situation to Nil in August.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Rod, what does this misplaced apostrophe do to the sentence? The meaning of that sentence.

ROD DIMBLEBY: We have in Yorkshire dialect what we call the definite article reduction. That's the word 'the', reduced to t apostrophe. So, the apostrophe is replacing the h and the e. Therefore, it should really follow the t. It's confusing because In apostrophe t, which they use for in the. That could be isn't because isn't in Yorkshire that it would be abbreviate to that, In apostrophe t. So, this could be confusing if you said, for example, it isn't in the bin. You'd end up with 'it in't in't bin' you'd have In apostrophe t followed by In apostrophe t but meaning two different things.

NK: Typos always drive me mad. Typos, even ones that I make. When you saw this, you know, as someone who cares a lot about grammar. You speak the dialect, you're the chairman, as we've said, of the Yorkshire Dialect Society. So, when you saw that sign and that error, glaring error to your eyes, what's the emotion that goes along with that?

RD: Frustration, really. It's a common error. Most people's experience of Yorkshire dialects is what they've heard, not what this read or certainly not written. So, it has to be something which has to be learnt.

NK: The council admits that there was an error here. So, what has happened since?

RD: I mean, I was contacted by the Times and the Guardian, various, radio and television studios. What was my reaction? Wasn't I angry? And, no, I'm not angry. I'm just disappointed. I'm rather pleased, actually. The North Riding County Council are using our dialect. It makes people smile. They could help, you know, get people to do what they want them to do, i.e. put litter in the bin.

NK: And so, have they changed the sign now?

RD: Oh, they have indeed. Yes, they corrected it. And indeed, they've contacted me and, and asked me for feedback on that correction.

NK: Well, they should have contacted you before.

RD: Before they published these things, yeah.

NK: You know, as you well know. Well, as you've said, you know, this change the meaning of the sign, that's an issue. But you've also probably heard the arguments from people who say, you know, in most cases, they feel that apostrophes just in general are, I mean, I can't believe, I can't believe I'm saying this because I don't subscribe to this, this theory, I must say. But they say apostrophes are on their way out. And, you know, it's really not that big a deal.

RD: No, no, that we've got to get it grammatically correct haven't we. It can change the meaning.

NK: You've given us a couple of examples, Rod of your beautiful dialect. But you have something else. You have a poem for us.

RD: Oh, lots of like poems. Yeah, but this is one of my favourites. It's called Back Street Ballad. It's written by a man called, Arnold Kellett. And this poem looks back at his childhood, in Bradford, where I'm from, too actually. And it really takes those of a certain age back to our childhood, the things it refers to. [Rod reads the poem]

NK: Well, I understood to be a lad again, but just that first, just the first few lines. Tell us what it's about.

RD: I wish I were a lad again; I wish I was a boy again. Yeah, but gum up making cry. Goodness me, I would really have some fun. I'd like as long as it will eat, I will play, lake is to play out. Play out as long as there was daylight. Yeah, yeah. Like that. And come home mucky black, really dirty.

NK: I'm playing outside.

SOUNDCLIP

SS: Whitney, can you give me an example of a bit of language that might get confused looks outside of both where you live and -- as you've just discovered -- Newfoundland?

WHITNEY MCCULLOUGH: [chuckling] Where do you want me to start? [both laugh] There's so many. Something simple would be saying that you've had a scoff or you're going for a fade, which means you're going for your dinner. You know, you're going to go and eat your tea. Another one is dear. So, d-e-a-r --

SS: Oh yeah.

WM: Is used to describe something that's expensive.

SS: So, how did you find out that people in Newfoundland could understand you?

WM: Oh, really, really randomly. So, there was a new chicken place that's open in Northern Ireland, and it was advertised just on a local news outlet that it was from Canada, and it was branching out of Canada for the first time. And I was randomly common to Lisburn in Northern Ireland, which isn't far from where I live -- about a 20-minute drive. And I had to go and have to go and try that. But then I got an invite to a launch party the day before it was officially opening. So -- normally -- I don't do those kinds of things. Like, I'm not an influencer or anything like that. I'm, I don't, I tend to avoid those things, but I had planned on going anyway, so may as well have went if it was free. So, I put a post on TikTok just asking has anybody heard of Mary Brown's? Does anybody know what Mary Brown's is? You know, they're opening. You know, can anybody tell me anything about it? And the floodgates just seemed open. [both chuckle] And I'd noticed that some of the comments were expressions on words that we would say here, that you wouldn't even get. Like to expand on the interview, I would travel to London quite a bit. And I forget myself, and I would just speak the way I normally speak, and people would look at you like you've got 10 heads. But here's these people in Canada that know exactly what I'm saying. And then, because I already do slang that hails from Northern Ireland, they were actually starting to comment, no, we say that, too. You need to check out our dictionary. You know, that you need to take a look. So that's what I've been doing. So, in the spare time in the evening, I'll take it back on just on the phone, and I'll read through it, and it's crazy the amount of words that are similar. And it all started because of Mary Brown's chicken.

SS: [chuckling] Well, Mary Brown's -- I mean -- is a big deal in Newfoundland. So, how was it?

WM: Oh, it's great. It's good. [SS chuckles] Funny, I see they're opening a second one here. So, it must be doing really, really well. I hope it is. [chuckle]

SS: So, something that I find really interesting is that this link is, is special and unique for another reason. And this comes from Gerard Van Herk -- a retired linguistics professor. He told The Canadian Press that the language similarity between Northern Ireland and Newfoundland is intriguing because more people from the south of Ireland would have immigrated to Newfoundland. So, why do you think there's so much overlap with Northern Ireland?

WM: Yeah, because some of the words aren't, that we share aren't used in the south of Ireland. Yeah, and it's basically a Northern Ireland thing. But what I have found is a lot of people in the comments are saying that some of their family come from Northern Ireland, some of them immigrated over from Scotland. And what you'll find actually with a lot of the Northern Irish slang is that it's actually called Ulster-Scots. And it's a combination of people that emigrated from Scotland over to Northern Ireland and then Ireland and, and all that. So, it seems to be just a mix of, of people from, from moving over from years ago from Scotland, Northern Ireland and Ireland.

CH: Whitney McCullough talking to Stephanie Skenderis about slang expressions that are common between Northern Ireland, where she lives, and Newfoundland and Labrador, where you might live.

[‘60s Britpop]

Part 3:

CH: 2024 is on its way out, and a new year full of possibilities is fast approaching. Are all the possibilities good? Why would you ask me that -- we're trying to have a nice time here. We're trying to reflect on the past year -- in particular, stories about people setting things right. Which takes commitment, and -- frankly -- guts. Now, if you'll permit me, a dramatic reading of a classic song about guts: Eye of the Tiger by Survivor.

[“Eye of the Tiger” by Survivor/hair rock]

CH: "Risin' up, back on the street. Did my time, took my chances. Went the distance, now I'm back on my feet -- "

[a kettle steams and whistles]

CH: Just a sec, my kettle's boiling! Stop the music, I'm going to make some tea. Teabag in the mug. Water over the teabag. And salt in the tea. Oh, did you not hear that salt in tea is the latest thing? Well, if you're into tea fashion -- and you like infuriating British people -- then you should listen to this interview with Michelle Francl. She's a chemistry professor at Bryn Mawr College whose book -- Steeped: The Chemistry of Tea -- got critics predictably salty. She spoke to Nil in January.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Michelle, why would someone ever add a pinch of salt to a cup of tea?

MICHELLE FRANCL: Well, it turns out that there's an eighth century Chinese manuscript that has great advice about making tea. And it includes saying, add a little bit of salt to the water. And when I was doing the research for the book, and I thought, why on earth would you add salt to water for tea? And it turns out that there's in the chemistry literature about coffee, it talks about how the ions in the salt -- the sodium ions in the salt -- block the bitter taste receptors. And so, if you want to make your tea a little bit less bitter, a tiny dash of salt -- not enough to taste -- if it tastes salty, you've added too much, will block those receptors and give you a smoother, less bitter cup of tea.

NK: Have you added that to your tea making routine now -- that pinch of salt?

MF: I have. Not when I make a cup of tea, but when I let it brew too long and I don't have time to make a new cup, I'll rescue it by adding just that tiny pinch of salt.

NK: Oooooo!

MF: It's like, oh great! I don't have to give up my caffeine.

NK: [chuckles] As you know, this particular tidbit -- this pinch of information -- has, I think we could say, created a bit of a stir. The British are particular about their tea.

MF: Oh yeah!

NK: The U.S. Embassy in London found it necessary to release an official statement that said, quote, we want to ensure the good people of the United Kingdom that the unthinkable notion of adding salt to Britain's national drink is not official United States policy and never will be. Unquote. How do you feel about having almost caused an international incident?

MF: Well, I've got to say that the science backs me, not the U.S. embassy. [NK laughs] I love, I love that they finished the tweet by saying they would continue to make tea in the traditional way using the microwave because that's another thing I talked about, which is don't use the microwave.

CH: From January, Nil's conversation with chemistry professor Michelle Francl. Ms. Francl was just trying to set things right by fixing people's tea. And Linda Girolamo -- whose family owns Pizzeria Napoletana in Montreal -- was just trying to set things right by sending a pizza to space. A place where, most of the time, there is little to no pizza. She explained the project to Nil in March.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Linda, was this always a dream for you to send a pizza from your restaurant to space?

LINDA GIROLAMO: No, [both chuckle] I didn't, I never dreamed of it. So, I can't say dreams come true. But it's a beautiful experience.

NK: What do you think your dad would have thought? I mean, he took over this pizzeria more than 40 years ago. Was it a dream for him?

LG: Oh, he's excited!

NK: Yeah?

LG: He's so excited because he said I saw you on TV!

NK: [chuckling] He's excited just about you being on TV. Forget the pizza going into space.

LG: Yes. Yes.

NK: So, how did this idea come together?

LG: Well, George, the, actually, the student from Concordia --

NK: This is George Defo, yeah.

LG: Yeah, George Defo, with, along with the rest of the team of the rocketry division of Concordia University. I know him very well. He's, since he was a small kid. He went to school with my son, and he worked at the pizzeria many summers while he was in school. And he came up this summer, and he, I knew that he was building rockets. And they had launched already one in the past. And, you know, every time they launch one, it doesn't come back. So, they have to build another one and do more research. So, they needed funding. And I said, you know, George, I can help you. And it just started like that. And then, I said, why don't we just, like, launch a pizza [NK chuckles] with the rocket into space? And he's like, wow! He goes, okay, I never thought about that. [NK chuckles] He goes, well, maybe not a pizza, but we could do a slice.

NK: But you said, I want to send the whole pizza.

LG: Yeah, I said, I'd like a whole pizza. Well, he goes, you know, there's aerodynamics and there's a lot of things to, to --

NK: Sure.

LG: Evaluate before that. He goes, but we could do a slice. And that's how it all started.

NK: And you decided that you couldn't send just anything off the menu. You had to, you had to top yourself even. What, what did you create?

LG: Yes. Well, I wanted to create something that represents -- first of all -- the world. Because now we're going to space. And I wanted to also something to represent Italy, obviously. So, I created a recipe, I wanted a dry ingredient because, you know, you always see, maybe because I watch too much TV and movies, [NK chuckles] but there's always, like, dry ingredients that they bring into space for snacks and stuff. So I said, I want a dry ingredient, then I want a vegetable. There will be potatoes on this pizza because potatoes are all over the world. The whole world eats potatoes -- grows and eats potatoes. So I said, I'm going to put the potato.

NK: Okay.

LG: And then I said, what else can we have? We're adding Italian sausage. And for the dry ingredient, I also wanted a smoky flavour, but I didn't want something artificial. So what we, what I decided is that we going to put cruschi. cruschi is a sun-dried red pepper that is then fried and jarred. Its, cruschi is a red pepper that comes from Italy. The one we're using is called Matera. And it was important for me also because Matera is one of the most ancient town in Italy. If you go visit it, it's in Basilicata, south of Italy. It's like it stopped in time. So, it was important for me to create a recipe that had a meaning, that truthful meaning.

NK: The past and the future all packed into that slice.

LG: Yes, yes.

NK: What's the pizza called?

LG: Rocket Pizza.

NK: Oh, well, obviously. I should, I should have known. [chuckling]

CH: From March, Linda Girolamo -- whose family owns Pizzeria Napoletana in Montreal -- explaining Rocket Pizza. Sometimes, segues are crucial. Other times, everyone is on the same page -- so you can just go from a story about pizza in space to a story about fossilized dinosaur feces, and it's fine. George Frandsen holds the world record for largest collection of fossilized dinosaur feces -- or coprolite. And in his coveted situation, most people would keep their coprolite hidden from the public in a special coprolite vault, which they would visit, alone, to gloat. But not Mr. Frandsen. He feels not enough folks have an opportunity to really spend time with rock-hard excrement from 65 million years ago. So he's set out to set that right -- by opening a dinosaur poop museum. Which he calls The Poozeum. He welcomed Nil to his institution in June.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: George, why are you so fascinated by fossilised faeces?

GEORGE FRANDSEN: Oh, that's a great question. I am so fascinated by fossilised faeces because of what it can tell us about our prehistoric past -- the animal's physiology, environment, and diet -- that other fossils just don't tell us.

NK: And when did this fascination begin for you?

GF: Oh, it started when I was 18 and I was in a paleontology course. I stopped by a rock and fossil shop in Moab, Utah and discovered my first coprolite. And I was amazed by it. It was fascinating. I had no idea these existed -- even though I had a passion for fossils and dinosaurs for my life. So I bought it and learned everything I could about it and where you could find them. One piece turned into two, turned into 10. Twenty-seven years later, it has turned into approximately 8,000.

NK: Eight thousand! Yeah, it's one thing to have a display case with, with a couple of pieces in them. An entire museum is a, is another story. Did you do this so others don't spend so much time not knowing coprolites even existed like you did?

GF: Yeah, the Poozeum -- in one form or another -- has been around since 2014. It started as an online resource centre, and then that transitioned to a travelling museum exhibit so people could see these fossils. And I did this because I felt a, there was a void. And I kind of, I hope to set out to change that with the travelling exhibit. And now with the permanent location, it can have people from all over the world who are here to visit the Grand Canyon.

NK: Yeah.

GF: Stop by and learn about coprolites.

NK: You felt like coprolites deserved their due, or I guess doo-doo deserve their due. I'm sorry. It just came to me. I'm so sorry. [both chuckle, NK laughs]

GF: Love it. Love it. I definitely believe they deserve their doo-doo. [NK chuckles] It, it is. It is time. They're funny. They're interesting.

NK: Yeah. Was, was that part of, of why you named it what you named it because you could have called it the -- you know -- The Coprolite Institute or something, [laughing] something very official. Was that to attract a broader audience?

GF: Absolutely. This is meant to be fun. It is meant to be for everyone. This is not just academics or people who have studied dinosaurs. This could be for someone who's never held a fossil, never seen one, but could come in, and learn, and have a great time.

NK: I do have to say I was, I winced a little bit when I saw the, the title of this, this conversation and the article in the, in the research. But it's less cringeworthy for those of us who are squeamish [GF chuckles] because they're fossils -- I think.

GF: We try to make it clean [NK chuckles] and less cringeworthy. So when you walk into the Poozeum, the first thing that hits you is the smell. And everybody thinks it's going to smell terrible, but it smells, some days it's vanilla and cinnamon. Other days, it's apples. A nice smell that kind of lets people's guard down and they can start to enjoy things like, oh, that's nice, that's a smell I know I'm familiar with this. Then they go a few steps in and there's a couple of coprolites that they can hold and touch to see that they have turned to stone. And they're not soft, they're not gross, they're not smelly --

NK: Yeah.

CH: George Frandsen -- curator of the Poozeum -- talking to Nil in June. Now, if someone talks about a rhinoceros's wrist, we know what they mean. Like, the joint just above one of their front hooves. But that doesn't mean we're comfortable with that kind of language. That's okay, though. David Stack wasn't super-comfortable with rhino wrists either, and he's an expert. Well, he is now, after he performed surgery on one. Which was not exactly in his comfort zone: he's a senior lecturer in Equine Surgery -- as in horse surgery -- at the University of Liverpool. But then again, it wasn't in anyone's comfort zone -- because it was the first time anyone had done this particular operation on a rhino with a broken...wrist. Nil talked to Mr. Stack in September.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Dr. Stack, how does a horse surgeon get roped into helping an endangered rhino?

DAVID STACK: Yeah, very good question, Nil. Very good question. So coincidentally, my wife is a conservation scientist and a welfare consultant who works for Knowsley Safari. She immediately became aware when Imara the rhino became lame. And the Knowsley Safari vet team had examined her and deemed her to have sustained an injury to her wrist.

NK: And what happened? How did she sustain that injury?

DS: So, she's quite a boisterous youngster and used to... Well, still does like getting herself into trouble. So, I think she ended up play fighting with one of the much her much older field mates.

NK: And so, they realize that this has happened. Then what happened?

DS: They realized this happened. They immediately that same day brought her in and kept her with mom, Meru contained within much smaller enclosure, administered some painkillers and carried out an initial examination and realized that her wrist was, we're calling it her wrist, it is the anatomical equivalent of a wrist was injured and then our practice team, our ambulatory practice vet team and they and myself quickly with the students headed out to Knowsley Safari and x-rayed her under anaesthesia.

NK: And I mean, was there any hesitation on your part? As we said, you're a horse surgeon. So, did you say...

DS: I feel we're kind of used to being thrown the curveballs in the hospital. We tend to say, yes. Where others may not. And we work very closely with our colleagues on the farm animal side as well, and some brilliant vets over there. So, we've worked collaboratively before on some cattle, alpacas and other, you know, large animal species, sheep and goats and things with fractures. So, we had some experience of, of venturing outside of the horse world.

NK: But any experience doing what you had to do with Imara?

DS: Not at all. No. When you get the x-rays and the students come out and gave us a hand with that. But once we had identified this fracture, the real challenge then was well how do we manage this fracture? And then things became complicated because, you know, we couldn't find anybody really, who had experience treating anything like this. So, the fracture was involving the joint, which immediately makes it much more serious because of the risk of arthritis, long term, etc...

NK: And can you tell us a little bit about what the surgery entailed, how long it took?

DS: Yeah. So, it took quite a while. We arrived, Knowsley Safari vets had anaesthetised her and kept her anaesthetised, thankfully, throughout. And they had done a brilliant job. So basically, we converted her enclosure into an orthopaedic theatre really. Everything had been washed down and cleaned out and basically, we had to work out how to get the camera, we're going to do some keyhole surgery. We had to work at it to get camera to her joint because with the horse we can feel where the joint is and just making a small incision and pop the camera in. With a rhino her skin is so thick, really, we couldn't palpate. We couldn't feel where the joint margins were. So that was certainly a challenge that we had anticipated. Thankfully, because we had had several meetings and run through everything many times. So, we used ultrasound to help to locate the joint a little bit at the challenge because we had never done ultrasound scanning on rhinos before. We weren't sure if we could get it, if we could get a picture through their very thick skin. But thankfully, it turns out, as it turns out, their skin is quite amenable to ultrasound.

NK: Good to know. Now we know all of that. But I mean... Sorry. Go ahead.

DS: Yeah, no, that's and I think that's the, that's one of the points. There's not a lot out there. We looked through the literature, the published literature, and there wasn't really a lot out there in terms of these kinds of things. So, one of our key focuses as a university is to publish this as a case report. So, that it is out there and other people are faced with similar dilemmas can borrow a little bits of our case management to get through their cases if they encounter them.

NK: How is Imara doing now?

DS: Good. Super. Yeah. Really happy with her today. We were out there this morning. She's quite lazy, you know. I said she's a bit boisterous earlier. She's like a typical teenager. She's she can be quite lazy at times and then at other times a little bit boisterous. But she was quite lazy this morning. She was snoozing, but very happy with her walking.

CH: David Stack -- expert on horse surgery -- talking to Nil about doing rhino surgery, in September. Literally setting things -- in this case, rhino wrists -- right. In all the excitement about rhino wrists, I almost forgot I was doing a dramatic reading of Eye of the Tiger. Let's see, where are those lyrics -- [rustling pages] -- they should be easy to find; I wrote them in calligraphy on high-quality owwww. I don't want to exaggerate, but the worst thing that's ever happened to anyone just happened to me. I got a papercut. I can't look at it. I have to bravely keep going through the unparalleled pain. And I should have known that particular page would be a problem, because this year, Sif Fink Arnbjerg-Nielsen rectified a huge scientific failure, and established once and for all what paper is most dangerous -- and how best to avoid papercuts. Nil talked to her in June. Can I get a huge roll of gauze? No, bigger than that.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Sif, how many paper cuts did you have to endure before you said, I think we need to research the physics of the paper cut?

SIF FINK ARNBJERG-NIELSEN: So -- actually -- I didn't have a lot of paper cuts, but my supervisor was complaining about them. I don't think he kept count. [NK chuckles] But I have a presentation that I use to disseminate my research, and there is a picture of a paper cut in my slides and it is his finger.

NK: [chuckles] So -- in terms of testing this and doing your research -- were any scientists hurt conducting this research? Or were you using something else?

SFAN: No. So -- unfortunately -- we didn't have any sort of volunteers [NK chuckles] that wanted to do repeat experiments with paper cuts. So -- instead -- what we did was we designed and built a paper cutting machine where you can put in these gelatine substitutes. So, we use gelatine substitutes instead of cutting into actual human tissue.

NK: Good to know! How did you, what did it look like? I'm glad no one was hurt. What did it look like as you were -- you know -- applying each of these types of paper to, to the gelatine skin simulator?

SFAN: So, the experiment is fairly straightforward. So, we have a block of gelatine. So, gelatine is like Jell-O -- which I guess you use more in cooking than we do in Denmark. [NK chuckles] I don't know, that's outside my area of expertise.

NK: Depends. Depends, yeah.

SFAN: And then, so we had a -- like -- rectangular slab of gelatine, and then we had a sheet of paper. And so, the sheet of paper with the cutting edge was parallel to the substrate surface. And then, we moved it at an angle. So, either we moved it just straight down into the gelatine slab or we tried to slice with it. Always keeping the edge and the, the top of the gelatine parallel, but --

NK: Right.

SFAN: Trying to slice into it, such as how you would slice a tomato in the kitchen or any sort of cooking that you do.

NK: Ultimately, what kind of paper was the most likely to produce a paper cut?

SFAN: So, what we discovered was that the dot matrix paper that was predominantly used in old fax machines was surprisingly the optimal paper for slicing into fingers.

NK: What is the, the physics of this paper that makes it the most effective at cutting.

SFAN: So, for very thick sheets of paper, if you apply the same amount of force -- because it's so thick -- it can't concentrate the force. So, it's almost like stepping on someone's feet with a sneaker instead of a stiletto. And if you have very thin sheets of paper, basically the paper will just buckle. And then, in between these types of paper, you have this optimal paper that is thick enough to keep its integrity, but it's not so thick so that it can't concentrate the force.

NK: Is there advice that, that all of us can take, take away from your research -- what we should and shouldn't be doing?

SFAN: Always try to move paper as much up and down when getting closer to your finger. So, when you're reading, don't draw your finger down the line of the, the page of the book that you're reading. Always go in from the side and flip it. That way, you minimize the risk because then the angle is perpendicular.

CH: Sif Fink Arnbjerg-Nielsen talking to Nil about the science of papercuts, in June. Many of us once believed that kissing was invented by Tobey Maguire and Kirsten Dunst, in the movie Spider-Man. But they just invented kissing where one person was upside-down. It turns out that kissing originated even earlier than 2002 -- as discovered this year by a hedgehog expert, and an expert on ancient Mesopotamian languages. To re-assess the origins of smooching, Sophie Lund Rasmussen -- the hedgehog expert -- and Troels Pank Arboll -- the ancient language expert -- put their heads together. Although they put their heads together all the time, because they're married. Nil talked to them on Valentine's Day.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Sophie, Troels, I think most people just assume kissing has been around forever -- romantic kissing. How were we all so wrong for all this time?

TROELS PANK ARBOLL: Well, in my field of astrology, where I study the ancient Middle East, we've known for several decades that, [chuckle] that the kiss was quite old from our sources. But now, we've finally made this information available to the larger public, and it's received great interest.

NK: Sophie, did it surprise you?

SOPHIE LUND RASMUSSEN: Yes, it actually did. And, originally, Troels and I were just discussing this published study on herpesvirus in the Bronze Age and came across the claim that the kiss originated in, in India in 1500 BC. And I thought that was really interesting. And then Troels went I think I can beat that with a thousand years. [NK chuckles] So, we just ran upstairs to the office and studied all the sources he remembered. [chuckling]

NK: And a passion project was born. Just that study you were mentioning, that was in 2022, you come across the study on herpes, and that was dating it back to 1500 BC -- romantic kissing, as you said. As, Troels, you were, were digging around into other sources. What did you find that brings us to this conversation today?

TPA: Yeah. Well, so, in astrology, we study the world's first written script or perhaps first written script like cuneiform writing, which was invented in ancient Iraq, circa 3200 BCE and used it into the first century in the common era. They wrote on clay tablets, so they're incredibly durable. You know, we have a lot of sources available. And when they start formulating, you know, myths, and the like, around 2600, 2500 BC, you start to get some juicy stories, you might say.

NK: Oh?!

TPA: And one of these revolves around some gods that have intercourse and then kiss afterwards. So, this is really evidence of --

NK: Afterwards. Okay, interesting.

TPA: Sexual, romantic kissing, yeah. Yeah, it seems to be a post-coital activity in the origins.

NK: [chuckling] Secrets revealed. Is it possible that it may date back even further than what you've dated it back to -- 2500 BC-- a thousand years earlier, as you've said, than that original paper you were looking at?

TPA: I mean, it's difficult always to date these ancient manuscripts. But obviously, it's also possible that some of these stories were even older, of course. And we certainly know from the various studies we went through that there are these biological human behaviours that relate to kissing that seems to go quite far back into prehistory. So, I would imagine if we had to search for some sort of origin, we have to go very far back.

NK: And Sophie, biology is your area of expertise. Why do you think romantic kissing came about all of those years ago?

SLR: Yes, because, I mean, right now, we have mentioned the earliest documentation as we currently know it's for kissing -- sexual, romantic kissing. But I think this behaviour is way older than that. And the reason why I think so is that when we look at the behaviour of our closest living relatives -- the chimps and the bonobos -- they also engage in sexual kissing. At least the bonobos, they really, really do enjoy sexual kissing. [NK chuckles] So, if they're doing that behaviour, it could indicate that this has been around for many, many, many years. And that's really interesting.

CH: Sophie Lund Rasmussen and Troels Pank Arboll talked to Nil about the origins of kissing in February. Our final story tonight is about a graduation ceremony that took place in Oklahoma this spring. The senior class officially said goodbye to Moore High School -- decades after they'd said goodbye to Moore High School. Fifty years after their first grad was ruined by a tornado, the class of 1974 finally set things right. In June, they finally got the ceremony they'd been denied. Carol Brown-Jasak is one of the 1974 grads who made it happen.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Carol -- first of all -- congratulations on graduating.

CAROL BROWN-JASAK: Well, thank you. [NK chuckles] We were so excited. [laughing]

NK: Yeah, I bet. Did you, did you feel 17 again?

CBJ: Yes, I did. When I woke up Saturday morning, I was just all giddy and had butterflies in my stomach. And I thought -- oh my gosh -- this is really going to happen. This is really going to happen. We've been talking about it for so many years.

NK: Yeah, and it really did. Well, let's go back a few years to what was supposed to be your night -- everyone's big night -- in 1974. What happened? Because your graduation ceremony certainly didn't.

CBJ: No, it didn't. [laughing] Well, we had been having stormy weather and everything, but the morning of our graduation, it was nice and sunny and -- in the middle of the afternoon, you know -- we all lined up and we're going to walk out to the football field. And so, we marched out and everything, we got seated, and all of a sudden, the tornado sirens went on and the superintendent got to the microphone and he said, I guess everybody can see the clouds. And big, dark tornado-looking clouds came in. And he said, graduates, consider yourself graduated. And he said, everybody take cover. You can pick up your diplomas in some classroom I don't even remember because I don't remember that part. [chuckling] I remember the part where he says, anyone with small children or handicapped, please go to the concession stand because we had a concrete concession stand underneath the wooden bleachers that we had. And my aunt was visiting from Iowa. And so, my dad rolled her in. And she's handicapped. He rolled her in --

NK: She uses a wheelchair.

CBJ: Yes. And he says I don't know when I'll be back to get you. But he rolled her in, and then we all ran. It was pouring down rain. It was pitch dark. And -- you know -- everything, everything was cancelled. So we went home and sat in the dark, and when it stopped raining, we went back up and got my aunt out of this concession stand. [chuckling]

NK: She was there all the time by herself? Was she okay? Was everyone else okay in the end?

CBJ: Oh, yes, yes. I mean, it was an F1 tornado -- which was not, we don't even look at F1 tornadoes anymore because -- right now -- you know, there are three, four, and five. You know, they're really strong tornadoes now. Back then, an F1 or F2 was a really strong tornado. And, but it didn't do anything to Moore other than -- you know -- we lost power and cancelled our, our graduation.

NK: And when you think about worst-case scenarios, what you ended up with was not so bad, but you did miss out on this, this big day. It sounds like it all happened really quickly, though.

CBJ: Yeah. And, I think there were three speakers, but only one got to give an opening invocation I think it was. And so, the valedictorian and salutatorian didn't get to give their speeches or anything, but they found them. They gave them 50 years later. [laughing]

NK: Yes, that's, I want to talk about those how they found those speeches after all this time. But, but just to to go back a bit more, why not have it then in 1975? I mean, why, why did it just happen?

CBJ: Well, the superintendent at the time just said it wasn't going to be rescheduled. But -- you know -- we've had reunions every five years since we graduated. And the closer it got to -- like -- 40, you know, 40 years, 45 years we began talking about it more. And it really -- you know -- as you get older, you, things mean more to you. You know, when you're young, you just want to be out of school and go on to college, start your life, and stuff like that. But -- you know -- we were getting up there and we were starting, some of us were starting to retire and things like that. And you start thinking about how it would have been nice to have walked across the stage and actually gotten it. And then, we had a group of ladies that -- friends that we all grew up with -- and there were five of us, and we call ourselves The Fab Five.

NK: Nice!

CBJ: And we had dinner about two years ago. And, we just talked and laughed and we decided -- well -- let's have another luncheon -- you know -- next month. So we, for two years, we've been doing these luncheons about -- or dinners about -- every six weeks. And it's grown and grown and grown in size. And one of the gentlemen that came was a graduate of ours -- Mike Wilson -- and he works at the school. He's retired, but he works at the school as the colour commentator for the football team. [NK chuckles]. And he just asked the principal what our odds were [chuckling] to have a graduation. She says -- well -- I don't know why we can't do it.

NK: You had the, you had the diploma, you have the camaraderie over all of these years -- certainly. What did you, what did you feel like was missing, having not had that ceremony officially?

CBJ: Well -- actually -- walking across, being handed our diploma -- after 12 years of work -- being handed something, shaking hands, and then being able to -- you know -- move your tassel from one side to the other. It, we just, it just didn't feel like it was complete. And -- you know -- I was excited. I was teary-eyed. I just wanted to say I did it, [chuckle] you know?

NK: Awe, it's still emotional.

CBJ: Even though, like I said, most of us have gone far past high school and have gotten other degrees and stuff like that, but this was the first one you were going to get, and we just didn't get that. So we just wanted, we wanted.

NK: Yeah.

CBJ: Completion.

CH: Carol Brown-Jasak telling Nil about her high school graduation ceremony in June, 50 years after her original high school grad was cancelled due to a tornado.

The AIH Transcript for December 26, 2024

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