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The AIH transcript for August 26, 2024

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NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

LISA BRYN RUNDLE: Good evening, I'm Lisa Bryn Rundle, sitting in for Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

LBR: Tonight:

NK: Slippery slope. The mayor of Ketchikan, Alaska describes what a deadly weekend landslide has done to his city -- and the questions he has for state officials.

LBR: Power shift. After its incursion into Russia, Ukraine is hit with a barrage of air strikes, targeting the country’s energy infrastructure.

NK: A journalist in Kyiv describes how he and others are coping as they prepare for more hits and more power outages.

LBR: You win some, you lose some. But today Major League Baseball player Danny Jansen did both simultaneously as he made history playing for two teams at once -- not just in the same game… But the same inning.

NK: Compassionate leaves. We’ll hear how Black landowners in North Carolina are working to maintain the forests handed down through the generations.

LBR: And… Storybook ending. A suspect in Italy is nabbed by police after he became engrossed in a book -- during an attempted robbery.

LBR: As it Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that recognizes the importance of reading the room.

Part 1: Alaska Landslide, Ukraine Retaliation: Journo, Danny Jansen Two Teams

Alaska Landslide

Guest: Dave Kiffer

LBR: The governor of Alaska has declared a disaster in the small city of Ketchikan. On Sunday, a landslide decimated several major streets -- taking trees, soil and homes with it. One person is dead, and many more are injured. And mandatory evacuations have residents sheltering at the local high school. A landslide of this scale is a first for the town, but not Southeast Alaska, which has see several in recent years. Dave Kiffer is the mayor of Ketchikan. That's where we reached him.

NK: Mayor Kiffer, can you describe for our listeners what Ketchikan looks like today?

DAVE KIFFER: The biggest challenge in Ketchikan right now is that we only have, we're, we're the long narrow community, roughly 20 miles long and five or six blocks wide, up the side of a mountain. And three of the, we only have three roads across the entire community. Two of those roads are now covered in debris and are unusable. And the third road is a little damaged. And we were very -- actually -- very close to having the entire community cut in the middle.

NK: If we go back to yesterday, can you just sort of walk us through -- mayor -- what, what that was like for you -- what you were dealing with?

DK: Yeah. Well -- for me -- I was actually out in that part of town. I'd just left something I was doing out there. I was getting ready to get in my car, and I heard a large rumble. And then I felt the earth shake. And my first thought was -- wow -- that's an earthquake. Which are fairly rare occurrences here. We usually don't have earthquakes in this area, and that's what I thought it was. And I got in my car and actually turned to drive along one of the roads. And -- you know -- about a quarter mile later -- actually -- I, I noticed there were trees in th road. Well, that's kind of weird. I need to call public works. We need to clear that up. But then as I, as I -- you know -- kind of started to focus. It wasn't just trees, it was like half a mountainside. You know, there, there was mud piled several feet deep with trees everywhere. It was, it was, it was such a shock, but it was hard to take it in.

NK: Well, to see that destruction. And it's, it's a place you've lived for more than 60 years now. So, I'm sure you've you've experienced landslides before. But how does this compare to what you've experienced?

DK: Well, the reality is we have not had landslides like this before. Occasionally, there'll be a rockslide, you know? Something will fall off the hillside and come down and down because, because basically, Ketchikan is located on the side of an island, and the mountain goes up 3,000 feet right behind town. So, we're used to that. We're used to occasional -- you know -- a rockslide or two. But we have never seen -- I mean -- all this, all these decades, all the heavy rainfall that we get; we get 160 inches of rain a year. I can truthfully say we have never seen anything of this magnitude. And that's why it's so shocking. It's sort of completely out of context. It's just hard. You look at it and you go, what am I, what am I looking at here?

NK: As you process and others -- you know, as you said -- what am I looking at here? What are we dealing with? What do we need to do? There are many -- as you know -- you're, you're speaking with people who've, who've lost their homes. What are they telling you?

DK: Yes. I think there's a real fear right now because -- for generations -- we've never really thought much about landslides. I mean, it just -- you know -- it happened in other communities in Southeastern Alaska. If you look at our topography, you would think we'd have a lot of landslides. We don't. And I think it's just the the realization now that this is, this is a possibility. You know, we've we've driven along those roads all our lives. You look up at the hillside all your life. We never thought it's going to come down. Now, you have to have the -- you know -- the realization that there could be a problem there. And I think we need going forward to probably look at -- as do most of the towns in the Southeast -- you know, are there certain areas in our towns that perhaps you shouldn't be building homes or developing in? And that's probably going to be coming down the pike.

NK: Yeah. I wanted to ask about those kinds of plans and conversations you have with other communities as well, because -- as you likely know -- after the deadly landslide in Wrangell, Alaska last year, the Alaska Center for Climate Assessment and Policy said climate change is causing more rain, and that will cause more landslides in the region. So, are you having conversations with other, other towns, other leaders?

DK: We have been. And certainly -- you know -- we were one of the first people to respond to help out Wrangell with their problems. And, of course, we've talked to folks from Haines and elsewhere, and it is clear that there's something happening here. Now, whether it's climate change, I don't know. For, for -- you know -- decades, we've got this huge amount of rain every year, and we've never had a landslide like this. So we need to find out what the issue is. And we've actually been pushing the state of Alaska to do a, a more formal assessment of the different communities in the Southeast now that we've had four different communities that have that had these issues, about the situations in those, those towns. And, and whether landslides are going to be something more, more frequent in the future. The state was working on a two-, or three-, or four-year process to look into this. But to be honest, we're out of time.

NK: The governor of Alaska -- Mike Dunleavy -- as you know, is in Ketchikan today. What kinds of conversations are you having with him about helping your community prepare?

DK: Actually, he was supposed to be here today. But apparently, he's not going to be here until tomorrow.

NK: Okay.

DK: So, so, but I, but I will be having those conversations, and we're going to probably do a helicopter fly over of the area. And what the state can do to help the communities in Southeast. Because the reality is -- you know -- it's a very serious issue. And it's something that the state needs to put a lot more resources in right now to help us figure out how we, how we go forward.

NK: Governor Dunleavy has been criticized -- as you may know -- for, for disbanding the state's climate change panel and putting a lot of energy into oil and gas developments in Alaska. You know, when you, when you have that but you hear the Center for Climate Assessment and Policy say climate change is going to cause more rain and that will cause more landslides, even though you haven't experienced them until now in this way. How does that all sit with you? Does that worry you?

DK: To be honest, virtually every politician in Alaska will take that position to a certain extent. But the reality is -- you know -- we, we talk about global warming with this area. Yes, it's going to be wetter, it's going to be windier, it's going to be rainier. It's going to be all those things that we may not like about the town now. It's just going to be even more so going forward. And I think it is something that we really need to look at all, all the possibilities and what we can do. And if that's climate change, then that's that, that's, that's, we have to deal with that. Whatever, whatever it is, it's, I think it's a freight train heading towards Southeast Alaska. We need to deal with it.

NK: Mayor Kiffer, I appreciate your time. Please take care.

DK: Thank you very much.

LBR: Dave Kiffer is the mayor of Ketchikan, Alaska. That's where we reached him.

[smooth jazz]

Ukraine Retaliation: Journo

Guest: Tim Mak

LBR: Blackouts returned to Kyiv and other Ukrainian cities today as Russia pounded the country with one of the biggest attacks of the war to date. Critical energy infrastructure has reportedly been the key target. Officials say Russia launched 200 missiles and drones and that at least six people have been killed. The attack comes three weeks after Ukraine began its surprise incursion into Russia's Kursk region -- a manoeuvre from which Ukraine claims it has made significant gains. Tim Mak is a journalist and publisher of the newsletter “Counteroffensive”. We reached him in Kyiv.

NK: Tim, can you give us a sense of, of what's happening around you? What are things like there right now?

TIM MAK: Well, the thing I noticed the most that was different over the last few weeks is that there's this grinding humming in the air that I haven't heard in a little while, and I think a lot of Ukrainians dared to believe they might not hear again for, for a long time. And that's the hum of diesel generators all throughout the city. What the attacks have meant is that there are going to be rolling power outages now for the foreseeable future, and there's really no, really no knowing how long they'll be or how often. So it's really turned the city -- which had been enjoying a late summer -- into a, into a place that's filled with uncertainty.

NK: And where were you when the strikes began?

TM: I was in, I was in my office, and you could hear these explosions outside. And once you live here for a while, you can kind of get a sense of what kinds of explosions they are. You know, air defence interceptors go up in the sky and they blow up in the sky, and they have a kind of proof, a kind of more hollow sound. Now, hits -- though -- they kind of, they crumble, they grind, and you can kind of hear them explode on the ground. And you heard both of those over the course of the morning, as there were dozens and dozens and dozens of attacks all across the country in almost every region of the country.

NK: How do you adjust over all this time to the reality of living in a, in a, in a place that is a war zone, and then have a renewed -- you know -- slew of attacks like this one? How do you go about your day?

TM: When -- say -- a month or two ago, these power outages were quite common, you just start to realize, hey, I'm going to have to plan my entire life around the issue of power. That is when the power comes on, I got to rush over and recharge my batteries. You know, business owners are thinking the same thing. They're going out when the power cuts out and they're starting their diesel generators so their food doesn't spoil, and their fridges work. If you're like me and you live on a high level of, of an apartment building, you might want to use the elevator to get out [chuckle] and get some fresh air. Ukraine is an incredibly digital society, and so it has these apps that show you, hey, you're about to lose power in about 15 minutes, and it will also send you a notification when you're about to come back. So that -- you know -- you just kind of start to try to adapt and deal with the situation.

NK: You adapt, but are you scared?

TM: Well, here's the thing: it's not just a matter of acute fear. Russia's decision to attack -- today and in the past -- has, has really been focused on eliminating parts of Ukraine's energy infrastructure. And what that is, is a sort of collective punishment, collective message to everyone that they can reach out and touch their lives. It's not just a matter of being fearful when the attacks happen, it's the not knowing and the cumulative anxiety and stress that comes about from not knowing if -- in the next moment -- a new attack might begin, even if it's actually reasonably safe outside.

NK: When we talk about the timing and the motivation for the timing, there will those who, there will be those who point to Ukraine's recent incursion into Russia. Do you think this is a direct -- or these attacks and these types of attacks -- are a direct response to that?

TM: Well, Russia has attacked Ukraine's energy infrastructure before the Kursk incursion, and it continues to do so afterwards. So it's hard to see it as a direct response. These attacks on energy infrastructure are -- arguably -- a war crime, a punishment on everyone who lives in Ukraine. But what I will say is that the mood in Ukraine -- in much of Ukraine -- has been really lifted by seeing Ukrainian soldiers for once not fighting on Ukrainian soil, but instead the enemy's territory. And that's really raised morale. And what I expect will happen is that this will be a hit to morale. And if Russia seeks not only to degrade energy infrastructure to make the situation worse for everyone who lives in this country, it has succeeded in some small way. And it's also trying to dampen the spirits of everyone who might hope for a better future.

NK: What is your sense at this stage -- as much as you've been able to find out and gauge -- the extent of the damage from these, these particular attacks?

TM: In Ukraine -- because of the wartime scenario -- the government treats energy information like national security information. It's been very coy about exactly what has been hit, exactly what the damage is, or how long it might take to fix. They just don't want to show their hand when it comes to what's affected and where. And so, that leads to a lot of confusion and uncertainty. You know, the lights are on for me right now. I expect to lose them in about 15 minutes. It wasn't clear to me that I would have power again today. And it wasn't clear to anyone. It's hard for me to say how Ukrainians are reacting to it because they're still processing how they're feeling about these things, and we're still dealing with the immediate impacts of this, of this attack.

NK: Well -- Tim -- before we let you go and before you lose power again -- as you said -- do you think these, these attacks will will help fuel the Ukrainian president's push? You know, ask to Ukrainian Western allies to allow Ukraine to, to go deeper -- to strike deeper inside Russia?

TM: It's certainly an argument that Ukraine needs the ability to strike targets in to, inside Russia because it's, it's one thing to intercept missiles that are in the sky or drones that are already attacking your cities as they're doing in. What Ukraine wants is the ability to strike the airfields and the places from which these missiles are launched, and which these drones are launched. And -- over time -- the United States has slowly, slowly been moving closer to the Ukrainian position. But unfortunately, it's taking a lot of suffering and a lot of attacks for the American position to change.

NK: Tim, I appreciate your time. Please take care.

TM: Thanks so much.

LBR: Tim Mak is a journalist and publisher of the newsletter “Counteroffensive”. He was in Kyiv.

[island ambient]

Danny Jansen Two Teams

Guest: Mike Wilner

LBR: It was an odd scene at Boston's Fenway Park this afternoon. The Blue Jays were at bat against the Red Sox, resuming a June 26th game that was paused in the second inning due to rain. Toronto's Daulton Varsho was approaching the plate -- pinch-hitting for Danny Jansen. And behind home plate, catching for the Red Sox was… Danny Jansen.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: First of all, it looks a little strange seeing Danny Jansen on the field wearing different colours, getting ready to play against the Blue Jays. At this moment, still on the scoreboard here. Danny Jansen's face is on the scoreboard in a Blue Jays cap because -- again -- this game is frozen in time. He is the batter of record until the PA announcer says, "now batting in place of Danny Jansen is Dalton Varsho.

LBR: That's right. Through a strange set of circumstances, Danny Jansen made history today by becoming the first Major League Baseball player to play for two teams in the same game. Mike Wilner has been following the game today. He's a baseball columnist for the Toronto Star and host of the Star's Deep Left Field podcast. We reached him in Mississauga.

NK: Mike -- as a diehard baseball fan, maybe even a baseball nerd, if we could say -- what was it like to watch history be made?

MIKE WILNER: Oh, absolutely a baseball nerd. [NK chuckles] No question about it. And, yeah. Look, this game is, was tailor made for somebody like me. Just the weird quirkiness of having someone play for both teams in the same game. For the first time, having two players get to play in a game for the Blue Jays prior to making their major league debuts. Having the Jays rally for a few runs that gave him a little bit of insurance against a pitcher who was on a different team when the game started. I mean, it's, it was wild. It's amazing.

NK: A good day to be a baseball fan and an even better day to be a Jays fan -- it sounds like.

MW: Absolutely, absolutely a fun time.

NK: So -- for those who aren't in the know like you are -- how was this possible?

MW: Well, see, what happened was back on June 26th, the Blue Jays were playing against the Red Sox in Boston. And in the top of the second inning -- with David Schneider on first base and Danny Jansen batting for the Jays -- it started to rain really hard, and they had to stop the game, and they couldn't resume it that night. And that was the Blue Jays last game of that series in Boston. So in the old days -- prior to 2020 -- what would happen if a game was rained out or stopped by rain before becoming official, before you get five innings in -- or if it's tied after five innings -- they would just say, okay, we're going to start fresh the next time these two teams get together. And if the game had gone beyond five innings, then all the statistics would have counted, and it would have been a tie. But they don't have those anymore. After 2020, they changed the rules so that any game that starts must be finished. So -- in the situation that the Blue Jays were in -- that game was halted and suspended at that time to be picked up from the exact same point the next time the two teams got together -- which is today. And in the interim -- in the 61 days in between -- the Blue Jays traded Danny Jansen to the Boston Red Sox. So, he was the batter when the game was stopped back on June 26th for Toronto, and he was the Boston catcher when the game resumed today.

NK: It's, it's, it's, it's a unique situation to say the least, one that hasn't happened before. We want to play a clip of Danny Jansen talking about just how strange this felt.

SOUNDCLIP

DANNY JANSEN: One of those -- you know -- crazy things about this game and definitely an oddity. But it's going to be cool. It hasn't really hit me yet, but -- you know -- when it's all said and done, it's going to be something cool to look back on -- for sure.

NK: We can't be inside his head in the moment -- you know -- he was playing, in the moments he was playing. But what do you think -- you know -- knowing him, knowing the sport, knowing the teams, what do you think was going through his head?

MW: Honestly, I don't think much different. I think it was more for Danny, it would be more about how strange it is to be playing a game against the Blue Jays. This is the team that drafted him more than a decade ago, the only organization that he'd played with for the entirety of his major league career until that trade last month. The only team he'd ever known. And I think that in all the talk about the weirdness -- yeah -- he played for both teams at the same game. But really -- I mean -- he's just getting in a game and picking up where he left off. Or picking up where the game left off. I think what's getting lost is -- you know -- the bigger question ios: what's it like playing against the Blue Jays? What's it like seeing that uniform play against you? Having to do that. So, I think that dominated his thinking way more than I was playing for the other team when this game started. And that -- you know -- the Red Sox are kind of in a pennant race, and they need wins. And that's what he's there to, to try to help with.

NK: Are you surprised in terms of the sport overall that, that this has not happened before?

NK: When people look back on this -- you know -- the record of today's game -- the, the scorecard -- what story will that scorecard tell?

MW: I mean, it'll be, it'll be a funny one. It's the first score sheet I've ever had in -- you know -- 36 years of covering this game where there's the same name on both teams for the, in the same box score in the same score sheet. You know, you'll look at George Springer, who hit a home run in the game, and it was the 18th home run he's hit this season. But it was his eighth home run of the season. Chad Green got the save. The 15th time he's got a save. But his third save of the season because it -- quote/unquote -- happened on June 26th. I'll see that this game was played on June 26th and that Leo Jimenez and Wil Wagner played in the game for the Blue Jays, but that Leo Jimenez made his major league debut on July 4th and Will Wagner made his on August 12th -- six weeks after this game was played. So, all kinds of, of bonkers stuff comes out of this game. Vladimir Guerrero Jr. started the game at first, moved to third base when they resumed it today, and then moved back to first base for the last couple of innings of the game. Danny Jansen got the first hit of the game for the Red Sox, and he, he he struck out to end the game after starting the game with a different team. Craziness.

NK: A pleasure speaking with you, Mike. Thank you.

MW: Thanks for being interested in this. I appreciate it a lot.

NK: Absolutely.

LBR: Mike Wilner is a baseball columnist for the Toronto Star and host of the Deep Left Field podcast. He was in Mississauga.

["Take Me Out To The Ballgame"]

Book Burglar

LBR: Here's a story that confirms what you've always suspected -- that people with book smarts can also be book dumb. Recently in Rome, a thief crept into a man's apartment via the balcony in the dark of night. The occupant was at home but asleep. So far so good. But before the would-be burglar could get to work -- his attention was drawn as if by a supernatural power to the bedside table on which laid a book. Not just any book, but The Gods at Six O'Clock ... which I’ve actually never heard of either. But I now know it's a retelling of the Iliad from the perspective of the gods. And that in addition to what I imagine is lots of warring and thunderbolts and such, it's the kind of book that once you've started -- you just can't put down. Because at some point the homeowner awakes and notices he's been joined by a stranger who is absorbed in his bedtime book. Startled, the burglar books it, but is soon picked up by police. And while he tries every trick in the book to convince them of his innocence, they go ahead and throw the book at him. Hearing of the foiled filching, the book's author -- Giovanni Nucci -- has now stepped in offering useful context, such as that Hermes is the god of thieves, but also the god of literature. So, you know, there's that. Mr. Nucci is also offering to send the alleged burglar a copy, so he can finish it. Though I have to say at this stage in his thieving career, he really should be off book.

[Latin]

Part 2: Encore: Family Tree

Encore: Family Tree

LBR: As summer winds to a close, you may be spending some extra time outdoors -- near the ocean, around the mountains, or in the woods, among the trees. For Nikki Jefferies, time spent in the forest is much more than a way to unwind. It's become central to her life -- and to her relationship with her family. Ms. Jefferies is from North Carolina -- and grew up on the edge of a forested plot of land owned by her grandmother. When her grandmother died, she and her sister inherited the land. And eventually, she moved back to the property to manage the forest hands-on. The Jefferies are one of the families featured in the documentary Family Tree -- which profiles African-American landowners as they strive to sustainably manage their forests, and ensure future generations will reap the benefits. Nil sat down for a feature conversation with Nikki Jefferies and the film's director, Jennifer MacArthur, while they were in Toronto for the Hot Docs Festival this past May. From Our Archives, here's their conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Nikki, I wanted to start with you. For our listeners who haven't had a chance to walk through your family's forest, can you take us through it? What does it feel like to be there for you?

NIKKI JEFFERIES: For me, being in the forest, it feels like home. It feels like a return to a place that I haven't known in ways. Because whenever I was a child, I didn't venture into the forest, and nobody and my family took us into the forest. So I've learned since adulthood that I really enjoy being in nature. But since going back home, most of our property is forested, so I enjoy venturing into the forest.

NK: It looks, it looks magical and beautiful, and there's so much more of a recognition now. We talk about forest bathing, and people, you know, how good it is for your mental health. But there's this deep family connection -- as you mentioned. You grew up there but you didn't go into the forest as a child. What did they tell you? Did you, did you even know it was your family's forest when you were little?

NJ: I knew it was. I think I knew it was my family's forest. I knew that my family owned land. Now, there was a definite lot of time outside playing with my cousins -- because my cousins also grew up there. We all, maybe it was like five families growing up. So I have, like, 30-some first cousins. And so, we all grew up playing there. So we definitely was outside all the time. But for whatever reason, well, we had trees outside of the forest.

NK: Sure.

NJ: So we were definitely climbing trees. We just, we did not happen to be in the forest, in the trees.

NK: Your grandmother -- as I understand it -- left the land to you and your sister -- who we also meet in the film -- almost two decades ago. But only in the last several years have you gone back and sort of reclaimed it as an adult. What made you want to go back?

NJ: Well, during the pandemic, I used to go home on the weekends, and my dad was living there whenever I would go. And he is a gardener, so he always had a garden. So I would go back on the weekends and I would help in the garden. And it also was a family, like, community type of thing because my aunt and my cousin from next door, they would come. What made me go back was really kind of like a calling to go back because I've never, I never decided to go back. It was just going there and -- I guess -- being reconnected. And then, I just started having an inkling like, well, maybe you should. Maybe you should go home. So it was more of a calling and me deciding to yeld to the call to go home because I never would have made that, you know?

NK: And -- Jennifer -- this, you've worked in film before -- in documentary film producing, certainly. But this is the first time you're directing a documentary. So what called you to tackle this topic in particular and meet these families?

JENNIFER MACARTHUR: So I grew up, sort of in similar kinds of places in a lot of ways, and exurban sort of communities similar to where Nikki's family lives in Sanford. And, in, in Alaska -- which is very rural. And back when I grew up in [jumbled sound] years ago, [NK laughs] it was a lot less built up than it is now even. And I'm an Angeleno now. I've lived in Los Angeles for the last five years. But previously to that, I was in New York for 20. And, you know, New York was really, it was overwhelming. And it didn't have the natural sort of environment that was offered -- that is offered to you -- is, you know, used by all other 8 million people that live there, you know? [NK chuckles] The parks are, you get into a park and it's still, you know, overwhelmed with people. And it's very hard to sort of get that headspace and get that alone time in nature that I think I, I kind of, like, took for granted when I was a kid. So I really felt a pull towards nature, and wanted to explore that in storytelling.

NK: And, and what kind of film did you want to make? Because you wanted to tell a type of story that you felt wasn't being told?

JM: Yes, absolutely. I think, you know -- for one -- I wanted to tell a story about Black people in nature and really in, in an environmental story, but one that was not necessarily about, you know, environmental racism or environmental justice necessarily, and sort of this, you know, what we oftentimes see, Black people pushing against a large, a larger force -- corporations or polluters or what have you. And instead, really look at African Americans in a stewardship sort of role and what that looks like. And are, and exploring that sort of long history that we have of stewardship, right? You know, when I started to work with, with Nadine Natour -- our researcher -- you know, I said, let's look for something that's sort of at this intersection of stewardship and African American land. And she came across the Sustainable Forestry and African American Land Retention Project -- SFLR for short. And they have this incredible program -- eight states in the southeast from Texas to Virginia -- that work with Black landowner families and help them access resources to develop a sustainable forestry practice on their land, in an effort, you know, to do three things, you know? Sort of that they call, you know, the triple bottom line of, you know, making some economic benefit out of it, ensuring that there's, you know, environmental and climate benefit, but also, you know, some justice, right? For African Americans, you know, we've lost 90, 95 per cent of the lands that we once owned since the early 20th century. And so, these families -- to me -- really represent, they're almost like magical unicorns. And so, I really wanted to explore that. And what does it take to make that work to pass that down, to create intergenerational wealth? And what does sustainability look like in practice, outside of the sort of the concepts and the ideas that you might find in some university setting or some, you know --

NK: Right. Theoretical --

JM: Theoretical thing. Like this is it, real, real deal. And how can regular people see this and relate to it?

NK: I'm, I'm glad you brought up the foundation. There's, there's a great moment in the film -- pretty early on the film -- Mavis Gragg -- there's a clip -- she's a former director at the American Forest Foundation, and she says that the field was initially sort of new to her. And she says, she asked the question [chuckling] Black people have forests?! [JM chuckles] And she says this as a as a Black woman. And I wonder -- Nikki -- was that, is it surprising to you that people are surprised that Black people own forests and have for a long time?

NJ: Yes.

NK: Yeah?

NJ: Yes.

NK: Because it's second nature to you and your family. And what about you, Jennifer? When you captured that moment as she talks about that, you wanted to put that in for a reason because she's not alone -- probably -- right?

JM: Yeah, she's not alone. I mean she's also hilarious, right?

NK: Yes!

JM: So, like, the way she says it, it's just so funny. But you know, yeah, I think Black people have forests?! You know -- first of all -- people have forests?! I mean, I think the private ownership of forest land -- I think -- is a new thing for a lot of people to know and understand that 39 per cent of America's forest lands are owned privately. But within that, that Black people -- particularly in the south, southeast -- you know, there's a significant amount of Black families -- including my own -- that own lands that have, that are forested. So there are, there have been in a number of films and sort of, you know, investigative pieces in the last five, six years that have talked about heirs property and Black land ownership. But, you know, this particular angle of Black land ownership, Tyrone says it's a film about Black land, not Black land loss.

NK: Yeah.

NK: Nikki, what did Sam help you and your family discover about what you could do with the land? What kind of advice did he give you?

NJ: Well, we met Sam within six months of me going back home. And so, the first thing he taught us was that we can manage our land. And we start by having a forest management plan. And he also taught us that it's all about what we want to do with our land. So a forest management plan is different for each landowner, you know? It's all about what our goals and objectives are. So it was always -- with Sam -- about us and what our initiatives are. And that's something that we appreciated. And he talked to us about some programs, and he helped us to apply. So we have received a hot tunnel grant -- which we talked about in the film -- and we actually had it installed last weekend.

NK: What -- just describe for our listeners -- what you had installed.

NJ: We had a hot tunnel. And hot tunnel is, it's something kind of like a greenhouse, but it's, the structure of it is different. But it allows you to be able to extend your growing season so you can grow year-round versus seasonal whenever youre just growing outside of a hot tunnel.

NK: You know, I realize I didn't ask you exactly how much land your family has.

NJ: Well, my family has about 45 acres, but it's only about 36 acres that my sister and I control.

NK: Um-hmm. And is it, is it all forests? Just help them paint a picture of --

NJ: It's about 34 acres of forest.

NK: Just 34 acres of forest. And it was sort of untouched or un --

NJ: Yes.

NK: Unmanaged, I guess.

NJ: Yes, unmanaged. That's exactly what it was.

NK: Yeah. What are your dreams for it? What do you, what do you have in mind for the land?

NJ: First and foremost, for it to stay in the family. Second, for it to be a place where people can come to. Not just our family, but even open it up to outsiders to come, to be reconnected to the land just like I was. We do want to have events, we want to get into agritourism, but we are in a season of discernment to figure out what that looks like for us. So we go to different places looking at ideas, but we have concluded that what we'll have is going to be different from anything we have seen.

NK: Yeah. I like that phrase, season of discernment. But -- Jennifer -- you learned, you know, about your own family's land as you made this, right?

NJ: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, so it's like I knew this land existed in Virginia. We, it's my understanding that the, the land that we own was passed down through the generations from the master of the plantation that we come from -- which is actually true for a lot of African Americans, believe it or not. And, you know, I knew it existed, and I knew that there was, you know, I always remember there were sort of conversations around like, who's paying the taxes? And how we're doing with this, and duh-duh-duh. But I didn't really quite understand that it was Heirs property until I started making this film. So I started making this film, and we were exploring, you know, land ownership and some of the challenges of land ownership. And just to, to clarify, neither, the Jefferies or the Williamses and their family, neither one of them actually are heirs property owners. They have figured out, you know, sort of that core initial sort of legal issue. And that's why they were able to really move forward on what, you know, the, what they're doing, each one of their plans -- forest management -- plans for their, for their property. But for the vast majority of African Americans that still own land, it's heirs property. And that means that the land gets passed down without a will or without a trust. And, it gets very complicated as more and more people have more kids, and the land gets divided, you know, across larger groups of people.

NK: Sure.

JM: And I didn't really know that that's what we had. And I, the concept came up in that early research, and I was like, wait a minute! I called my sister. I was like, Vicky, is this us? [NK chuckles] Like, is this what we're doing? Like, tell me more about, so it was just. I kind of knew at that moment, this was like early in the process before we even did any shooting with the Jefferies or the Williamses. I kind of knew at that moment, I was like, oh, this film has real potential because if I -- the filmmaker -- am having this moment of revelation about, you know, the self-awareness around this is, this is the experience, this is the, I actually was able to find the language to be able to describe what my family was experiencing. I knew that that would be very powerful for a lot of other people -- not just African American -- who also own land and own it in this sort of complex way.

NK: Do you, you know, do you, do you think people are writing things down more [chuckle] than than they used to in terms of wills? And it's, it's a hard, you know, I know this from, from my own culture as well. People just, they don't.

JM: Yeah.

NK: They just don't. They still don't.

JM: They don't. And I think that, you know, my hope is that this film will be able to shift the consciousness and shift awareness around what this is. And that there are actually people out there who can support you and help you figure out how to move forward. But it takes time -- particularly because -- in the African American community specifically -- you know, so many of us were kind of hustled out of our lands and through processes that were seemingly legal, right? And so, you know, the trust around sort of these legal processes are, is, is lacking, you know? So it's important that SFLR is out there doing this work representing Black interests, Black people who are able to speak to other Black people and say, you know, this is, this is what is needed. This is what you can do. You know, and even then, that's not, access doesn't equal everything. You have to, that's just the first step. And then building that trust to help people understand what's possible for them.

NK: It's, it's a personal thing -- Nikki -- to, to share so much of, of yourself and your land and your family with, you know, Jennifer, but also everyone who's going to see the film. Why did you want to take that leap? Is there something you wanted all of the viewers to see the film to take away from it?

NJ: Yes, I did. I thought it was necessary and important, even though it's scary to do. You know, especially with my dad being so vulnerable about his past life. So that was, that was the biggest thing, you know? But I thought it was necessary. Like, it was something that people needed to see because even though we're, we're dealing with things that is not so much now. Like, we're in a different place now. I was talking about what was. So that's different than if you still were absent. If you still were deadbeat. If you weren't showing up the way you show up. So I thought it was, it was necessary and that it would be good for our own healing, but also for people who find themselves in similar situations to know that you can be any age and healing can come. Because there was a time when I didn't see it for us and I didn't care if it happened or not. So if it can happen for us, it really can happen for anybody.

NK: That's really beautiful. And it was beautiful in the film to see your father so open and emotional. You mentioned your your niece. We meet her in the film. She's really cute. Do you and your, when you're, you know, in your introverted self -- as you said -- and walking through the forest, do you dream of her and her children that may come, and, and beyond that, you know, hundreds of years down the line what you want it to be like and look like?

NJ: Honestly -- right now -- what I do, I'm more communing with my grandparents about what they would have me to do so that her future can be. But I'm not thinking about what her future is. She's so amazing and brilliant that she has her own way. She's like me in that aspect. You know, it kind of doesn't matter what my dream or vision for her would be, she's going to do it her way in her own time. And so, my focus is making sure that I'm honouring my grandparents.

NK: Yeah. Well, Nikki, Jennifer, a real pleasure speaking with both of you. Thank you for coming in.

JM: Thank you so much for having us.

NJ: Thank you.

LBR: From Our Archives, that was Jennifer MacArthur, director of the documentary Family Tree and Nikki Jefferies, one of the people featured in the film. They joined Nil in the As It Happens studio in May.

[chillhop]

FOA: Gravy Wrestling

LBR: Muhammad Ali once said, "Champions aren't made in gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside of them." Now, that's great in theory... but in practice, champions in Lancashire, England are made, not so much from what's deep inside them, but rather what they are deep inside of… namely, gravy. Today, those would-be champions gathered in the village of Stacksteads to compete in the annual World Gravy Wrestling Championships. But the English don't have a monopoly on the sport. Back in 2018, wrestlers in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, also tried their hand -- and arms ... and slippery, slippery legs -- at gravy wrestling. Joey Vendetta described the experience to As It Happens. Here's part of his conversation with guest host Laura Lynch -- From Our Archives.

SOUNDCLIP

LURA LYNCH: Joey, have you ever wrestled in gravy before?

JOEY VENDETTA: This is a first in my professional wrestling career, so I've been doing it for just over 10 years now.

LL: Okay -- wrestling in gravy -- what's it like?

JV: Slippery, mushy, it's weird. And when it dried, it got really sticky.

LL: [laughing] Did you get a chance to taste any of it while you were wrestling?

JV: I had French fries shoved in my mouth that were coated in gravy. They were delicious!

LL: And was it really hot?

JV: I was only cooking with the gravy once the sun was hitting me after I got doused in it. They had lathered us up with gravy before the match. So -- as it was drying -- you could feel it baking to your skin.

LL: And so, was there, was it any contest with your opponent, or did you have him hands down in the wrestling in gravy department?

JV: Once I got my hands on him, we eventually -- me and my tag team partner, the Screaming Eagle -- got the win. But getting my hands on him was very tough due to the slipperiness of all the, the gravy there. I went to put him in a front facelock and he slid right through my arms.

LL: [chuckling] So, how did you finally make it work? How did you win?

JV: I had stopped Billy Bones from, from cheating one more time. And the Screaming Eagle flew off the top rope. Amazing that he didn't slip off the top rope due to the amount of gravy in the ring, but he flew off with a big flying crossbody, and he pinned Victor Valentine for the victory. [chuckling]

LBR: From Our Archives, that was Joey Vendetta, speaking to As It Happens guest host Laura Lynch in 2014 about his experience of wrestling in gravy. The World Gravy Wrestling Championships took place today in Stacksteads, England.

The AIH Transcript For August 26

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