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The AIH Transcript for March 3, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Guilty on all charges. The grandson of one of the 10 people killed in the 2018 Toronto van attack tells us he's relieved to see the driver convicted today and hopes it might now be possible for his family to move on.

CH: Out of lines. The federal minister of Northern Affairs says he'd like a chat with Manitoba's premier about the decision to put people in First Nations communities ahead of Metis and Inuit Manitobans for the covid-19 vaccine.

CO: Rooms for improvement. An Ontario traveler forced to quarantine in a government sanctioned hotel says the place was underwhelming, overcrowded and shockingly overpriced.

CH: Reversal psychology. After the governor of Texas announces he's rolling back almost all covid-19 measures in the state. Local leaders respond with a plea to take back that rollback.

CO: The old good copulate, bad copulate routine. I'll let that sink in. A researcher at the Manchester Museum says it took a lot of trial and error, but his team has finally convinced a party of endangered toads to reproduce in captivity for the first time.

CH: And completed after lengthy discussions. Estonian rapper Tommy Cash collaborates with Adidas on a new pair of grotesques sneakers, each of which is a full metre long. So even a short walk in them could be the trip of a lifetime. As It Happens, the Wednesday edition, radio that warns if you buy them, you'll be the lacer of two evils.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Van Attack Conviction

Van Attack Conviction

Guest: Elwood Delaney

CH: Nearly three full years after he killed 10 people and injured 16 others, the perpetrator of the Toronto van attack has been found guilty on all charges following Alek Minassian's conviction today. Crown Attorney Joe Callaghan read out the names of those he killed to the press.

JOE CALLAGHAN: Ji Hun Kim, Sohe Chung, Geraldine Brady, Chul Min Kang, Mary Elizabeth Forsayth, Munir Abdo Habib Najjar, Anne Marie D'Amico, Beutis Renuka Amarasingha, Dorothy Sewell, Andrea Bradden.

CH: Elwood Delaney's grandmother, Dorothy Sewell, was amongst those names you just heard. She was on her way to the bank when she was killed on April 23, 2018. Mr Delaney and his family have waited nearly three years for today's conviction. We reached Elwood Delaney in Kamloops, B.C.

CO: Elwood, what did it mean for you to hear the judge say guilty on all counts today?

ELWOOD DELANEY: It was a sigh of relief. It's been a long time coming for our family and many other families. So it was, it's a relief to have the verdict I wanted.

CO: What's it been like for you and your family over these past three years?

ED: It's been hard, probably harder on my wife and I and then my oldest, he's 12. So at that age where he can understand kind of everything. But it's been a long, long few years.

CO: You're out in B.C., in Kamloops. But this was on Zoom this trial. Did you follow much of it?

ED: I did. I followed quite a bit of it, having that three hour delay and it starting early for me out here. I was able to watch quite a bit before, kind of, work started.

CO: Because this, the perpetrator, the man who killed your grandmother because he pleaded not guilty, there was a trial and just presided over by a single judge. Did you gain any insights? Did you learn anything from that?

ED: I won't say I learned anything. I definitely. I think she did a fantastic job of what she was given with what she had to go through as a judge on a case like this.

CO: And did you gain any insight into the person who killed your grandmother and the others?

ED: A little bit into him. I still to this day, hold quite a bit of anger towards him and that will take years and years for that to go away.

CO: One of the issues was that his defence said that he had autism, he was on the spectrum, and that, that was the reason why, the argument was that he couldn't be held criminally responsible because of his autism disorder. What did you make of that approach?

ED: It was hard to accept that, especially with my wife being a psychiatric nurse, so for me, I was able to kind of ask her questions about how that, how autism and all that kind of works because she's in that field and knows more. But to me, it always seemed like the defence was just kind of grasping at something that they could. And even though I didn't believe in it until the court's final days, you just don't know what's going to happen. I'm glad that how she talked about it in her video today and how she did very good at explaining why he was guilty and the steps and how she kind of disproved the opposite thing. I think she did a very good job on that.

CO: And when you say she you mean Justice Anne Molloy, who went to a very unusual step, didn't she, and that she would not name him and said she would only refer to him as John Doe in her judgement because of what she thought his motives were. What did you learn about what she thought were his motives?

ED: I never really believed his motives. Like, I knew he knew what he was doing was wrong. And he, there's no way, he can get away from that.

CO: And also that this idea that he was part of some sort of in-cell rebellion, in-cell being sort of a loosely affiliated group of men who call themselves involuntarily celibate. And she said that that defence that he had, he'd killed all these people because of being part of that. She said that the judge says it was a lie. What did you make of that?

ED: To me, that whole in-cell thing, it bothered me right from the get go. To me, his motives were, he just wanted to be one of those people that is in the media's eye as something. I believe just wanted to create mass murder and chaos, for whatever reason, that I don't know, but. He knew what he was doing and wanted to just create havoc. He was a terrorist, in my opinion, and on Canadian soil.

CO: But he wasn't charged with terrorism. Was that a disappointment to you?

ED: No, that wasn't a disappointment to me. It wasn't so much terrorism as an act of terror. He caused a lot of pain to a lot of people. As much as I wish, you know, he would have been killed that day. He would have won if he was shot. I think the police officer did very good at what he did to diffuse the situation. And now, unfortunately for him, he's going to have to... There's no hiding. He's still here. And he's just going to have to live every day now with what he did, in a place that's not comfortable for him.

CO: Your grandmother, Dorothy Sewell, 80 years old on that day. The weather was beautiful, wasn't it? That day in April, she was out walking, doing errands, apparently. Is walking. Is that one of the things she liked to do?

ED: Oh, she always walked. She did have a car, but it was easier for her to walk around or just take the local subway.

CO: What was she like?

ED: She was great. She was, you know, a grandmother, you know, every kid wants. She always called, Christmas, birthday, every holiday. Came out to my wedding. Came out, when the kids were born, we went there in 2017 as a family to visit her. She cancelled all her plans that week. We showed up and just spent the whole week with us as a family. And we talked a lot of sports all the time throughout the year.

CO: She was big into sports.

ED: She was probably one of the Canadians biggest sports fans. Didn't matter what sport was on, if Canada was involved somehow she was cheering.

CO: There's a beautiful picture of her that the star published, the Toronto Star published. And she just looks so serene. Do you have a lasting memory of her, something that you can cherish and turn to?

Yeah, it'll be always, the Blue Jays because they play so many games throughout the year, we would always constantly talk about the Blue Jays. She was you should go to quite a few games and always, always sit up way up high behind home plate. And you know, Blue Jays will be my last memory of her always.

CO: Elwood, I'm sorry. And I appreciate that you would speak to us today. Thank you.

ED: Yeah.

CO: Bye bye.

CH: Elwood Delaney's grandmother, Dorothy Sewell, was killed in the Toronto van attack nearly three years ago today, her killer was convicted of 10 counts of first degree murder and 16 counts of attempted murder. We reached Mr. Delaney in Kamloops, B.C.

[Music: chime instrumental]

Quarantine Hotel Bills

Guest:Christina Teixeria

CH: Since last week, travellers returning to Canada have had to deal with the mandatory hotel quarantine and not everything has checked out when it comes to checking in. There are complaints of confusion, crowded lobbies and price gouging. Last month, Christina Teixeira's father died in Portugal. She and two family members returned from his funeral on Saturday. And now they say after staying one night in a government sanctioned hotel, they're facing a 3,500 dollar hotel bill. We reached Christina Teixeira in Bowmanville, Ontario.

CO: Christina, welcome home.

CHRISTINA TEIXEIRA: Thank you.

CO: If you could sum up in one or two words, you are a stay at the quarantine hotel, what would it be?

CT: Forced confined punishment.

CO: Yikes. You got home late Saturday night, early Sunday morning to the Toronto airport. What did they tell you about what you were going to have to do?

CT: Basically, once we collected our luggage and went through customs, they shunted us or, you know, there's basically lines that you have to follow to get to the area where the public health officials are checking for your hotel reservation. So once we got to that area, we told them that we weren't able to get through to the lines. We tried for days, for hours, on and on. We could never get through.

CO: Basically, you knew you were going to have to stay in a hotel. But the line, the numbers that were made available to book those hotels that the federal government has said you must go to, you couldn't get through. And so you made the case that you had gone for compassionate grounds and there are waivers for that. What did you plea?

CT: We applied the same, under the same exemption that non Canadian residents are able to apply for, to not have to go to the quarantine hotel, because if they are coming into Canada to attend a funeral or some sort of a medical procedure, they can bypass the hotel and go directly to either the funeral or their medical procedure and then finish off their quarantine period in another area. So we were pleading under the same case, we left for a funeral. It wasn't chosen travel. It wasn't a holiday. It was because we had to go and bury our father. And they said, no, those don't apply to you. They only apply for non Canadian residents coming in for a funeral. And so we had no choice but to actually book the hotel, the Crown Plaza. They gave us a direct phone number to that hotel and book a room for a minimum of three days.

CO: Right. And so basically your arguments didn't work. And so you had to book this hotel. They gave you a number. And what price were you given when you called to do the booking?

CT: The hotel gave us a price of 369 dollars per night. And then we left that area and we went to get our covid test.

CO: So you had to get a covid test. And that was one of the other rules. And so then you headed to the hotel. What was it like when you got there?

CT: Once we got to the hotel to check it, they said, well, there's three of you. And they knew that there were three of us when we called in. The charges now, per night, is going to be over 719 dollars.

CO: Wow. Wait a second, so you went from 365 to 719 dollars between the airport and the airport hotel?

CT: Yes. In an hour and a half.

CO: What did they say were the reasons why it had almost doubled?

CT: That's the package. That's what we were told. That is the package. Well, you told us the package was 369 like why did we double or more than double this price? Well, that's what it is. We said, well, then we're not going to stay. This is ridiculous. We're being gouged. And they said, well, you can leave if you want, but your credit card is going to be charged for the three nights at that price. So it's going to be over 3,000 dollars. And we said, well, that's ludicrous. Like what other options do we have? And they looked at us, and said none.

CO: This is, what, two o'clock in the morning or something? You're having this...

CT: One thirty in the morning. We're... Aside from being mentally exhausted, we are physically exhausted. It was horrible. It was just a horrible experience.

CO: So you eventually got the test, right? What did the tests come back for you and your family?

CT: Right. So we made our way to our own room. We, you know, try to get some sleep. By 2 p.m. the next afternoon, we had our results for the covid test done at the airport. It came back negative, called the front desk. And we said we'd like to check out and settle our bill. And they said, well, you can't, you can't leave. Well, first of all, we can leave. I got on the phone with public health and they confirmed, yes, as soon as you get your negative test results, you can go ahead and leave and go to your place of quarantine. My brother said, well, I want to speak to your manager, they said she was not available. So, he made his way down to the lobby, in the lobby. There must have been about forty people with, you know, their luggage, families, children, all basically in one big crowd. And my brother saw that he turned around, came back upstairs and he said forget it, let's just go.

CO: This crowd of people, were they wearing masks? Were they distancing?

CT: There is no distancing. They are all in a big clump. And that's why my brother turned around and he said, this is ridiculous. I mean, the whole intent behind going to these forced quarantine hotels is to reduce the touch points in the contact that you have with people. But when we got in the elevator to leave the hotel, there was a young man, no mask, barefoot just in the elevator and people are walking around.

CO: So you left and you stayed only one night and had, what, a couple of meals, sort of.

CT: We stayed 15 hours. We got breakfast and lunch was a sandwich and some macaroni salad again delivered to the door and left there and that's all we got.

CO: So what was the final bill for all of this?

CT: The final bill that my brother got charged on his credit card is 3458 dollars and 67 cents.

CO: So you got home, have you had a chance to grieve? You were coming back from a funeral where you buried your father. Have you had any time to actually sort that out in your head?

CT: We truly haven't had a chance to sit down and actually accept and realise that our father is gone. And it seems like a big blur, big nightmare. And it feels like we were unjustly punished for something that is so normal for a Canadian society. Part of our fabric is that we come from all different parts of the world. So the consideration for folks who have roots and who have family back home in other countries, that was never considered as part of this essential travel or compassionate travel. Never.

CO: Christina, I'm sorry for your loss of your father, and I'm sorry you had to go through all of this. And we will try and get some answers. Thanks for speaking with us.

CT: Thank you.

CO: Take care.

CH: Christina Teixeira was charged nearly 3500 dollars for a one night stay at a quarantine hotel. We reached her in Bowmanville, Ontario. We asked for comment from the Crown Plaza, Toronto Airport Hotel and the Public Health Agency of Canada, which oversees the quarantine hotels. The Public Health Agency acknowledged long wait times for travellers trying to book accommodations. It said call volume has been decreasing and some hotels now offer online booking. As for cost, the agency says the hotels set their own rates. The Crown Plaza did not respond, and a spokesperson for IGH Hotels and Resorts, which owns the hotel, said they won't comment on individual cases.

[Music: guitar instrumental]

Panamanian Harlequin Toads

Guest: Andrew Gray

CH: Andrew Gray hopes he's given the variable harlequin toad another shot at surviving climate change. Mr. Gray is a herpetologist at the Manchester Museum. The toads usually live in the cloud forests of Panama and Costa Rica, where they make a sound like this.

[Sound Clip: Toad sound, like a whistle]

CH: But that sound is getting harder to hear, the little creatures are desperately endangered. Now after three years of trying, Andrew Gray says his team has convinced variable harlequin toads to reproduce in captivity for the first time. We reached Mr. Gray in Manchester.

CO: Andrew, congratulations for your successful toad breeding.

ANDREW GRAY: Thank you very much. Thank you.

CO: You took three years to get this done. How did you feel when they finally had babies?

AG: Yeah, it was amazing, actually. They separate when they've actually spawned and they were in the breeding tank for over a month. They swim down to the bottom of the water. The water's quite deep and they can hold their breath for up to an hour. So it's quite a worrying time, really. But when we came in and we found that the toads had separated, that's the sign that potentially the females spawned. And when we looked and we saw that she was a lot thinner, we realised that she'd lay their eggs underneath the stone.

CO: Yikes, but you thought because she was at the bottom of the tank that that something had happened?

AG: Yeah, well, they go down to the bottom of the tank. It sounds a bit strange because everybody thinks that frogs live in water, but these actually live on the land. The females, normally, they live in the forest. They only come to the water to breed. But she'd gone down to the bottom of this tank that would set up for breeding. So it was a little bit disconcerting, but it all turned out well. The female was fine and the eggs all were fertile. So it was amazing. We were absolutely thrilled.

CO: Now, have they hatched?

AG: They've all hatched out and we've got lots of babies. So the tadpoles were amazing. They were very unusual. They eat algae from the side of the glass, they use the special mouthparts. So they eat tropical algae that grows inside. That's the only thing they'll eat. But we managed to culture that with lighting over the top specialist lighting and they grew really well and they've now developed into little toads.

CO: You started with six of these little precious toad specimens. How many do you have now?

AG: Yeah, that's right. So we started off with six and we've now got an extra seventeen little babies.

CO: Wonderful. Well, congratulations.

AG: Thank you very much. Yeah.

CO: The name Harlequin Toad kind of gives some of it away. They're quite wonderful to look at. Can you describe them for us?

AG: Yeah, absolutely. They're really, really beautiful. And as you say, the harlequin gives off is an idea of what they look like. They've got these beautiful sort of black and yellow markings that are quite even and each one of them is different. So they're really striking when you see them in the wild or, you know, not even close up, at a distance. The colours are amazing. And they've got really beautiful eyes as well. They've got sort of almost the metallic green ring around the eye, which, yeah, they're absolutely stunning frogs.

CO: A lab in Manchester is a long way away from a cloud forest in Central America. How did you do it? How could you give them the conditions in which they would spawn?

AG: Yeah. So one of the problems that we had was that many people have tried it and failed. And I actually went out there. It was actually my last trip before we had a lockdown in the UK with the covid. And the last trip was to Panama and to visit this particular site in the Santa Fe National Park. Beautiful area, really remote. And we actually put data loggers into the field. We put 20 data loggers along the stream where they occur, and that sent us that information back on the humidity, the dew point, temperature, everything, rainfall, the whole lot. So we use that data. We replicated it exactly, back in Manchester. Even the flow of the water, the water levels, everything to mimic what they would be experiencing in the wild. And it did the trick.

CO: Could you describe it a bit more. It's quite extraordinary. That you were getting this data fed to you about all these conditions exactly as there were in Central America and you were reproducing them in your lab. But what did it look like?

AG: Yeah, so it's an aquarium, basically, a large aquarium, but with rocks and flowing water.

AG: And almost when you go there, you realise that they're living in the spray zone, they live almost like round waterfalls and very fast flowing areas where, you know, you're getting almost washed away yourself. So these tiny little toads, how they manage is unbelievable. So they need a particular flow of water for the oxygen to just to actually get some of the oxygen through the skin when they're under the water. That's why they don't need to come up for air for so long. And the tadpoles themselves have got little suckers on the mouth parts that help them to stick to the rocks, to stop them from being washed away. So with really fast flowing water and the use of powerful pumps, we were able to recreate that in a smaller aquarium. But it was yeah, it was quite tough. But it worked. It definitely did the trick. These tiny little tadpoles are only two millimetres when they hatch and they slowly grow and they get the colours. Beautiful colours just before they leave the water.

CO: Wow. And now what will happen with these toads? Any thought of reintroducing them into the wild?

AG: Yeah, I mean, the threats are still there in the wild. So one of the reasons we've got them is, there's a safety net for if they do become extinct actually in that area. But the other reason is, is to raise awareness and to raise funds. We have a sponsor, a frog scheme to directly support them in the wild. That's where they should be to belong in the wild. We're not zoos, we don't really believe in keeping them in captivity. It's about protecting them in the wild. But we have this back-up population. They could be reintroduced in the future if they did become extinct. So there is potential for that. But they need to be reintroduced as tadpoles. So we probably send them back to Panama, breed them in Panama and release all the tadpoles into the streams.

CO: Would you like to see that happen?

AG: I would love it. It would be absolutely amazing. That would be the icing on the cake. But I hope that... It's great to have that potential to be able to do that. But it would mean that they'd already disappeared for us to have to do that. And I hope it never, ever gets to that stage.

CO: Andrew, it's a really fascinating story and I appreciate you telling it to us. Thank you.

AG: No, you're very, very welcome. Thank you.

CO: Bye bye.

AG: Bye.

CH: Andrew Grey is a herpetologist at the Manchester Museum. We reached him in Manchester, England. You can see the variable Harlequin Toad and learn more about it on our webpage at CBC.ca/AIH.

[Music: percussion instrumental]

Tommy Cash Shoes

CH: It's been a while since I paid much attention to the latest sneaker trends, like every other CBC employee, I'm issued a pair of nondescript beige loafers once a year, to match our unisex cardigans. But this week I thought I'd check in on the shoe scene because it's been too long. Which is also a phrase you could apply to Tommy Cash's sneakers. This week, Mr. Cash unveiled the results of his recent collaboration with Adidas. He's an Estonian rapper known for his musical restlessness and his surreal videos. He is artistically ambitious and kind of silly. But you know what they say, before you judge a person walk a mile in their shoes. Just not these ones, because you will fall and hurt your face. As Tommy Cash explained on Instagram in all caps. "When I said to Adidas that I want to make the longest shoe in the world, as our collab, they were like, WTF, Tommy? But five months later, here we are". Yeah, there they are. Mr. Cash and his sneakers, one white, one black, each of them one metre long. Each foot, three feet, three inches. Tommy Cash explains that they are different colours to represent the angel and the devil that reside within him, which, like the shoes themselves, is a stretch. But they are definitely interesting and they're definitely hilarious. And I totally get why Mr. Cash wanted to do something really outlandish. I just don't get why he had to go to such great lengths.

[Music: upbeat pop instrumental]

Part 2: Manitoba Metis Vaccine

Manitoba Metis Vaccine

Guest: Dan Vandal

CH: The president of the Manitoba Metis Federation says the province is putting the lives of Metis and Inuit people at risk. David Chartrand's concern is with the rollout of covid-19 vaccines. Manitoba is giving priority to people in First Nations communities because it says they face greater risks. But the province says it doesn't have data proving that it should do the same for Metis and Inuit Manitobans. Here's how Mr. Chartrand responded to that.

DAVID CHARTRAND: Well, the evidence is clear. If you look at British Columbia, look at Alberta, it's already rolled out for the Metis. Saskatchewan, already their phase of rolling it out for the Metis across. In fact, some communities in Saskatchewan have already, Metis Communities have received their vaccines. It's only us in Manitoba. So ask yourself the question. If every other prairie province can initiate the equality of dealing with the Metis, knowing full well there's a matter of health crises, there's a chronic diseases that are probably similar to First Nations. Why take the risk of making a mistake, do it, take a chance and give them the vaccines? Because we know there's health issues here. We may not have the exact data that we want, but we know there's a problem. But this is the only province, yes, we founded this province we're a high, biggest population in the prairies. And yet we're the only ones being denied by this province. And we know every evidence is there. So it's really, if all that evidence is there, the only conclusion you come up with, it's politically driven.

CH: That was David Chartrand, the president of the Manitoba Metis Federation, speaking to the CBC on Sunday. Dan Vandal, the federal minister of Northern Affairs, is also concerned. He's written to encourage Manitoba's premier to reconsider. We reached Minister Vandal in St. Boniface.

CO: Minister Vandal, how are you planning to convince Brian Pallister, the premier of Manitoba, to reconsider the way Manitoba is vaccinating First Nations and other indigenous groups?

DAN VANDAL: Well, that is the million dollar question. I think the Premier and Manitoba Health are, they've clearly prioritised. First Nations, what they're not prioritising is the Metis Nation of Manitoba as well as the Inuit population of Manitoba.

CO: And we're talking there's 125,000 Metis people in Manitoba who are at this point not prioritised for vaccines. Is that right?

DV: That's right. And I've sent letters to the premier back in January asking for a meeting between the premier and I talk about this issue. I did have a good meeting with Minister Stefanson. She left me the distinct impression she understood the issue and she was going to solve it. Nothing's really changed since then. I've sent another letter saying that this needs to change. Our government is quite clear, Metis people need to be prioritised in the vaccine rollout. And I'm waiting for a response on that. And this is something that needs to be addressed.

CO: And your government in Ottawa, if the federal government has said that all indigenous people, including Metis, have to be prioritised?

DV: Absolutely. What one of the doctors didn't say that there's no conclusive health data to make that decision. And yet that is not correct. There was a study from the University of Manitoba Department of Medicine dated, I believe, in 2012, which clearly stated overall a higher prevalence of physical illnesses and higher mortality rates, higher use of home care, personal care, general overall poor health status of the Metis nation. And that's quite clear. And the National Advisory Committee on Immunisation. We followed their recommendations which said adults living in indigenous communities, which include First Nation Metis, Inuit, where infection can have disproportionate consequences, should be prioritised. So certainly the data is not perfect. It's not perfect for any indigenous nation. All the more reason the government of Manitoba should come to the table with a health data agreement with the Manitoba Metis Federation, but they seem to be reluctant on doing that. So they're saying we don't have the data to make this decision. At the same time, they're reluctant to sign the health data agreement with the MMF, who have some data on the health of the Metis people.

CO: MMF is the Manitoba Metis Federation. OK, when you say come to the table, I mean, this is you're speaking from a political point of view. And we've contacted both the premier and the health minister in Manitoba and been told priority for vaccines is a decision made by public health officials and not by the political offices. So do you think the premier should be meddling in these decisions if this is a decision of those public health officials?

DV: My letters have been to the premier, but I think it's also important that the Manitoba health use the information that is already out there that I've cited. Metis prioritisation is occurring as we speak in British Columbia. It is occurring in Alberta, where all Metis, 65 plus can be vaccinated. I believe it's occurring in Saskatchewan. And I think it's an absolute injustice that it's not occurring in Manitoba, which is really the homeland of the Metis nation and birthplace of the father of Manitoba, Louis Riel.

CH: To what degree is your government stepping up to ensure that there are extra vaccines in order to make sure the Metis are vaccinated?

DV: Our government is ensuring that there are enough vaccines to vaccinate all Canadians, including Metis, First Nations and Inuit.

CO: But not right away? So you know that right now it's priorities, right? And we know everyone eventually will be...

DV: The health care infrastructure Carol, is sitting with the provinces and territories. So we are working with provinces and territories, as we should, with the exception of where there's clinics on First Nations reserves, where we are working directly with those clinics. The Metis nation has never been provided health care service by the government of Canada for historical reasons. That's something our government is working through, minister Mark Miller, working on reversing. And this is just, really a social justice, but common sense, decision that needs to be made, are we going to wait for an outbreak before we decide to to prioritise the Metis nation? Just remember, Carol, what we're asking for or what I was originally asking for is just a seat for the Metis nation at the vaccine distribution table. Just talk to them.

CO: Sure. But if this isn't a time when you should be jumping in and getting ahead of that, when is it I mean, if you think that that's important and clearly is. Why doesn't Ottawa step in and provide extra vaccines in order to ensure that these populations are vaccinated?

DV: Well, as I said, we're working through the provinces. There is not the healthcare infrastructure in Metis Nation communities because of the relationship between Ottawa and first nation communities. We have actual health facilities on reserves, something we don't have for Metis Nation.

CO: Why don't you cut through the red tape and get the vaccines delivered, then.

DV: The vaccines are delivered.

CO: Delivered to the communities specifically.

DV: For Metis, Inuit, and first nation. But we have to work through the existing health care infrastructure, which by that I mean clinics or hospitals in order to deliver the vaccines. Those do not exist. The hospitals and the clinics do not exist in Metis communities. We have to use provincial hospitals and clinics.

CO: We will be following developments in this story. Mr. Vandal, thank you.

CH: Dan Vandal is the federal minister of Northern Affairs. We reached him in St. Boniface, Manitoba.

[Music: soft rock and roll instrumental]

New threat to street drugs

CH: There's a new threat embedded in a lot of street drugs, and it's potentially deadly, fentanyl is well known. It's been in the drug supply for years and caused a heartbreaking number of overdose deaths in Canada and elsewhere. But now benzodiazepine is showing up more and more in British Columbia. And those who work with drug users are sounding the alarm, warning it will lead to more pain and more deaths. Dean Wilson is a peer facilitator at the B.C. Centre on Substance Use and a recovering addict.

DEAN WILSON: Most of us experienced drug users over the past four or five years have got used to fentanyl. Fentanyl is now being added in Mexico. We don't even, it's not even been added anywhere along our line. It's actually been added as the heroin is being made so that we actually sort of got used to that drug and have been using it in moderation. But you add benzodiazepine, which is a very dangerous drug, because, you know, when you are on it, you know, you can easily die of overdose. And if you get addicted to it, by coming off it, you can go into seizures. So I think it's a combination of a bunch of things. Plus, a lot of young people who aren't experienced drug users who think, oh, I'll just eat this pill tonight, it's like me eating a pill of ecstasy five years ago, eat this pill today. It's got benzos, it's got fentanyl. It does have some MDMA in it, but it's too much for the person. They go home after a night gassing and that they fall asleep and they never wake up. This is a sad thing right now, and I really don't know how... How we're going to get out of it, Stephen. And I'm pretty good at this stuff. I personally went through something not too long ago, Stephen and I, and I'm sort of embarrassed to say that I fell off the wagon again. I got involved, but inadvertently I got addicted to benzos. And about three or four weeks ago, I'm on 120 mills of juice a day. And I went through six days of the worst withdrawal I had ever gone through in my entire life, not only physically but mentally. I was actually scared of my own self. It was a horrible situation, Stephen. And for me and where I am in this whole thing about the drugs and that, I don't know how some of my friends would ever be able to react to this. We have a future that does not look very bright.

STEPHEN QUINN: Dean, you have been at this for a couple of decades. I mean, for as long as I've been a reporter, you were at the forefront of the efforts to reduce the harm that's caused by drugs. What is not working here?

DW: Well, I think it's because the people don't listen, especially the governments. We've been fighting to get replacement strategies for the opiates for 10 years, maybe longer. But instead they keep saying, no, we can't do that. We can't do it. Well, now we're going to fall behind. It's not going to be just an opiate replacement. They're going to have to start detoxing people off the benzodiazepine. As I say, I've never taken one personally, but inadvertently I got stuck on them. They've got to listen to the experts, which are the drug users, and formulate a plan.

CH: That was Dean Wilson, a long time activist on the Downtown Eastside of Vancouver, speaking with Stephen Quinn, host of The Early Edition.

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Texas Restrictions Lifted

Guest: Andy Brown

JOE BIDEN: The last, the last thing we need is Neanderthal thinking that everything's fine. Take off your mask. Forget it. It still matters.

CH: That was U.S. President Joe Biden blasting Texas Governor Greg Abbott today. Yesterday, Governor Abbott signed several executive orders that went beyond loosening covid-19 health measures. He declared the state was opening 100 percent and he lifted the mask mandate. Some Texans welcomed the news, but local mayors say those actions will erase much of the progress Texas has made in fighting a virus that has already infected over two million people across the state and killed more than 40,000 people. Andy Brown is a judge in Travis County, Texas. Yesterday, he sent the governor a letter asking him to rescind his orders. We reached Judge Andy Brown in Austin, Texas.

CO: Judge Brown, what did you want Texas Governor Greg Abbott to consider when you wrote your letter to him?

ANDY BROWN: Well, I was hoping he would consider that we're not out of the covid pandemic yet and we have only vaccinated something like 5.6 Percent of our population here in Travis County. And so I was hoping he would consider those factors and not lift the mask mandate yet.

CO: He said that because there are now advanced treatments for covid-19 and that people are getting vaccinated more than every day, that it's no longer necessary. What do you say to that?

AB: Yeah, I just disagree. I think that so we basically have had two surges of covid in over the last year, the first one, and then we had another one kind of around the end of the year. Things are looking better currently, but I think that is because people are wearing masks. I think it is in part because we have vaccinated some portion of our population. But until we get to an 80 percent vaccination rate, our health authority the doctors here are telling me that we don't have herd immunity until we're up to around 80 percent. And so to me, it seems extremely risky and a poor course of action to tell people they can take their masks off now. There's variants of covid, I think Houston, which is about two and a half hours away from us, has discovered, I believe, every single variant of covid to be present in their city. And, you know, we're not very far away from them. And so I think that, just the number of things that could go wrong if people stop wearing their masks are many.

CO: It's not just that he has said they don't need to wear their masks. Well, even if there are individual mask mandates that no one's obliged to do it, no penalties for it. But he's also said he tweeted, I just announced Texas is open 100 percent and then in caps EVERYTHING. So what does that mean?

AB: He put a piece in that order that says even local jurisdictions like our county of Travis in the city of Austin within Travis County, that we cannot go against his order, basically. And so what that means is that most likely the bars will open, restaurants can open back to 100 percent capacity. And to me, those are the two scariest things, because bars and restaurants are obviously where you go and take your mask off to drink or to eat. And you're around people with whom you don't live.

CO: Well, the governor also says that this is the quote, people and businesses in Texas don't need the state telling them how to operate. So you disagree?

AB: Yeah, I disagree. You know, I am working with the governor and his team. There's the Texas Department of Emergency Management who is in charge of the vaccine distribution. And I am on exactly the same page in that we need to do everything we can to vaccinate our population as quickly as possible. And they have sent us, you know, another 10,000 vaccines for this mega vaccine centre at the local racetrack at the Circuit of the Americas, where we are vaccinating people who are low income members of community care, which is a healthcare that covers the poorest people. In Travis County, they are it's largely Hispanic and African-American people. And so on the one hand, we are working well with them and trying to get people vaccinated. But the biggest problem is just we're only at five or six percent of the population. And to do something like take masks off of people now and start letting people gather more is just a terrible decision, in my opinion.

CO: Are there going to be I mean, it seems that some of the businesses and some of the mayors of cities in Texas are going to still maintain their mask mandates. Is that the right?

AB: Yeah. Yeah, we all will do that. I talked to the Houston and Dallas County judges and the mayor here in Austin. And, yeah, we're all going to do everything we can to maintain that. But the way the governor's order is written is that, he can because he's the governor, he can supersede our ability to do things like I could no longer shut down bars if I wanted to because of the governor's order. I'm still working with our attorneys to see what leeway we have based on his order. I believe that we will still be able to order that local businesses require masks of their patrons. But it looks like we can't have any criminal penalties so that if, you know, something happens to where somebody comes in without a mask on, the business owner basically wouldn't be able to call the police for assistance because there's no criminal penalty. And so it really just shifts the burden onto business owners and makes it harder to enforce anything that we're doing at the local level.

CO: Well, Texas is amongst the top 10 states for spread of infection. You have hundreds of people who are still dying every week in your state and many people getting infected. What would it take for the governor to reverse this and to close things up and put the mask mandates back?

AB: I assume it would take another surge of covid, which I certainly hope we don't have. And he, I guess, did put some sort of bumpurs in there that if we get up to 15 percent of our population that has covid over a seven day average, then we can reduce capacities at restaurants again and do certain things. But once we get to that level, it's a problem that will hurt businesses. It will hurt our ability to vaccinate people. And we just, as a community have been through so much lately. There are still people without water. There are still people who are having to fix their broken pipes because of the recent freeze. There's people without enough food because everything in their refrigerator expired. And we're still trying to get food and water out to the community based on the freeze last week. And then, of course, the covid pandemic that's been going on for a year. Like the last thing we need is another surge of covid in Travis County.

CO: We will leave it there. Judge Brown, thank you.

AB: Yeah. Thank you so much for your time.

CO: Bye bye.

AB: Bye.

CH: Andy Brown is a judge in Travis County, Texas. We reached him in Austin.

[Music: mystery music]

Canada Reads contender

CH: In C.L. Polk's Novel Midnight Bargain, Beatrice is supposed to be getting married. She's on her way to an annual event designed to help her find a suitable match. But she has very different plans, specifically upending society as we know, it kind of plans. The book is a magical escape into a literally magical world where women are prohibited from practising ritual and sorcery so long as they can still bear children. And according to it's Canada Reads defender Rosey Edeh, it couldn't come at a better time. The broadcaster and three time Olympian will champion Midnight Bargain in next week's debates. Tonight, we have a preview read by the author. Here's C.L Polk.

C.L. POLK: Beatrice had been trying to ignore their approach to the chapter house. The carriage stopped in front of the building that dominated the south end of the square it presided over, its shadow cast over the street. The Bendleton chapter house was the newest one, built in Chasland with a soaring bell tower and matching spires, its face was polished Greystone, the windows sparkled with coloured glass. Beatrice stood on the promenade, glaring at the building as if it were her nemesis. She glared at the heart and social life and education for mages all over the world, the exclusive centre of men's power, men's influence denied to women like her even when she was finally permitted to practise magic in her advanced years. The chapter house had no place for her. She was permitted, when escorted by a man who was a member, to enter the gallery and the tea house and no farther. Boys aged 10 to 18, sheltered within learning mathematics and history alongside ritual procedure and sorcerous technique. Full members, shared trade secrets with their brothers, decided long before they even reached the ministry and improved their lot through their magical skill and fraternal vows. The chapter House facilities for crafting an artificing, suitably appointed ritual rooms, even apartments were brothers of the chapter could claim hospitality. Thousands of books of magic rested in Scriptorium, written in Misum the secret language of spirits. Centuries of tradition, of restriction, of exclusion were built into the very stones of this building. Beatrice stared at her nemesis, indeed. Don't scowl so, Miss Beatrice, you can't ruin this with every feeling that flits across your face, Clare urged. Smile. Beatrice stretched her lips and made her cheeks plump. With feeling, think of something pleasant, imagine doing something wonderful, Beatrice imagined that she had a right to every inch of the chapter house, that she and her greater spirit would be known scholars of the mysteries. That gentleman smiled at her not because she was beautiful, but because she was respected and girls hurried from one lecture hall to another, openly studying the art and science of high magic. She thought of the world she wanted and remembered her posture. She smiled as if the chapter house were her friend. That's much better. Clara paised. I'll take these gowns home, as you will be returning with your father. Good luck.

CH: C.L. Polk is the author of the fantasy novel Midnight Bargain. Their book will be championed in next week's Canada Reads debates by Olympian turned broadcaster Rosey Edeh to find out how to tune in visit CBCbooks.ca.

[Music: Wind instruments]

Vaughan S.S. name change

CH: Students and staff at Vaughan Secondary School in Ontario wanted a name change. They no longer wanted their school to be named after 18th century slave owner Benjamin Vaughan. And now they'll be named after Hodun Nalayeh instead. Ms. Nalayeh was a Somali Canadian journalist who shared uplifting stories and provided a voice for Somali youth and women. She had her own YouTube channel called Integration TV, and she had just launched her own show on Omni TV, when she was killed during an attack in Somalia in 2019. In 2017, CBC spoke with Hodun Nalayeh about a visit to Somalia. She described her interview with a mother whose four year old child had died of measles.

HODUN NALAYEH: To be honest with you, what really amazed me is that despite that, she was so grateful still just to be alive and to have her other children with her. And I think that's the resilience of Somalis, is that, you know, despite the harsh conditions they're in and the weather they're facing, they're still such faithful people to like life goes on.

MATT GALLOWAY: What does that resilience come from? Do you think?

HN: I think it's faith. I think it is them trusting, they've lived off the environment so long, the nomads, that they expect hardship. They know that suffering is part of life and tomorrow is a new day.

MG: Why did you want to go and make these videos?

HN: Well, about two years ago, I really got interested in discovering Somalia and learning about my past and going back to the small town I was born in. So I just really just fell in love with the culture and the people in the way they think and the way of life. And it's a lot different than what the media portrays.

MG: What's different than what it is that we are seeing?

HN: Well, when I started Integration TV, that's exactly what it was about, was changing the image of Somalis around the world and particularly in Canada also. But what I realised was that in Somalia, it's a beautiful country. I mean, the nature in that country is just amazing. And there's just I think it's just because of the conflict, people have forgotten that nation and hopefully...

MG: That's not the narrative that people know, people know of what people call a failed state. I mean, a constant war. We now have a drought again, where 20 million people are at risk of starvation. How do you balance, you know, the beauty of the nature with what else is happening there, which is a very real crisis that the country is in?

HN: Well, I always say that stories are always two sides, right? I mean, whatever you focus on is what you will share. And the Western media tends to always focus on the suffering of that nation and the problems and the bombings. But people are still living. And like I said, like that mother's story is no different than the suicide bomber who's doing terrible things. I mean, if we share the human stories, I think Somalia would become more than, hashtag especially for this drought. I mean, there's a #lovearmy for Somalia right now that's raised two million dollars with Ben Stiller and all these Hollywood celebrities and all these young Somalis now using another hashtag in Somalia called Ouy Wallal. And these are movements that are happening online because people want to see humanity. They're tired of the one sided reporting of people.

CH: That was Hodun Nalayeh speaking with CBC host Matt Galloway in 2017. Ms. Nalayeh was killed in an attack on a hotel in Somalia, two years later. The York Region District School Board has voted to rename a high school in Thornhill, Ontario, after her.

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Part 3: Toronto man mourns 'brave' sister, among 3 killed on way home from Afghan TV station

Afghan Journalists Killed

Guest: Haroon Rahimi

CH: For Afghan women working at the Enikass TV station, it is an act of bravery just to show up every day, and yesterday they paid a terrible price for their courage. Three female media workers at the Jalalabad TV station were shot dead on their way home from work. Islamic State militants claimed responsibility, but law enforcement officials say they captured a member of the Taliban who they're holding responsible. It follows a wave of killings targeting human rights activists, judges and journalists. Meanwhile, peace talks between the Taliban and the U.S. backed Afghan government are still underway in Qatar. One of the women killed was 20 year old Shahnaz Raufi Mohmand. Haroon Rahimi is her brother. He lives in Toronto. And that's where we reached him.

CO: Haroon, first of all, I'm so sorry for the loss of your sister.

HAROON RAHIMI: Thank you for sharing your thoughts and condolences with us and the family, and it's really shocking news, but I am slowly, slowly adopting the reality that the incident has happened.

CO: How did you learn that she was amongst those who were killed in Jalalabad yesterday?

HR: Once I went on Facebook and I saw news that somebody is arrested in Jalalabad and because of shooting that they did to the woman journalist, I thought they got the killer who attacked another journalist a month ago. So I didn't really pay attention. And then I was having lunch. My dad called. He never calls that late back home time. And he is like, are you aware of what has happened? I'm like, no, what? And he explained the story. And then I went back to social media, dig into more because I couldn't speak. I was just shook. But it's just everybody screaming, crying. And we, we're just lost and speechless.

CO: And everyone is back home. You're the only one here in Canada. How is your mom and dad doing about the death of their daughter?

HR: Terrified, right. You raised a kid for 21 years. Send them to school, have hope for their future, and then somebody kills it in one shot. And all the dreams, the memories are wiped off in a second. And there is nothing left but her voice, it’s on the radio and movies that she would just translate or put the subtitle. Those are left, nothing else.

CO: Were they able to tell you how she was killed or how this attack unfolded?

HR: At 3:40, she was trying to leave the workplace and come to home, but 3:40 with her colleagues outside. They were shot to death by a gunman, which the government claims they arrested the person. But it's a false news because the picture that they showed in their media and official news websites. That's a guy who was arrested a week ago because the media says that they are lying about it.

CO: Your sister, Shahnaz, was one of the three who were killed, along with two other women, all in their late 20s and another another woman who worked in the same place. The Enikass TV station, another one was wounded. What do you understand about who might have killed your sister?

HR: I firmly believe that the killer is a terrorist, of course, with such a mindset. The government said the person that they arrested, his name is Qari Baser, and he works with the Taliban. But although the Taliban, they deny all the allegations. But the ISIS came forward and said we did this. So it is very unknown to us. But I also blame the government for not providing security for the journalists and the media people.

CO: Can you tell us a bit about your sister? What was she like? What was Shahnaz like?

HR: Ambitious, smart, caring, brave person. In Afghanistan and Jalalabad, especially in the Pashtun areas. It's really hard for a woman to work or at least even go to school. But Shahnaz was ambitious. She was not scared. She didn't even care about people comment that she was working in media. And people in Pashtun areas were saying that why we are allowing women to live and work or show their face and media. But whatever, she was brave, smart, caring person, and she didn't care that their comment is going to stop her from growing or not[inaudible] her voice. Even though a month ago same incident happened in Jalalabad, the fear was there. They always got threats, but they didn't stop because the belief she for women rights and for Afghanistan. And that provoked her to work every day.

CO: As you know, there have been so many media workers and journalists killed in Afghanistan in recent years. And of the 10 women who just worked at that TV station with your sister, there have been four killed. Another one was killed in in December and another one wounded. So what motivated her to work in Afghan media?

HR: I would say her motivation was lack of women in Afghan society to be shown outside. She believed that if I don't do it, then who else would do it? Although, as I said, the threats were there. The journalists have been killed. But her motivation that she wanted to change, she was so done with this extreme situation and she saw their absence in society and politics and decisions. So that's why she was motivated to work harder than before. And even though there were threats, another person from media was killed a month before in the same city, the same way. But they didn't stop working. They didn't want it to be muted. They believe that their voice should be conveyed.

CO: You know, that Afghanistan needs educated, skilled young people like your sister and so many have left the country. What did Shahnaz's want to contribute to Afghanistan?

HR: Just to convey the message that the women are also capable of leadership and they should be allowed to have their elementary rights, which is education and voting. They firmly believe that staying in the country is their only option. At the same time, if that's their option, they have to do their best in order to survive and also to help other people to survive. At the same time, she did have the soft spot for everybody in the family and that I really miss and that I'm really will be missing in my life. And that's what I'm thinking. And all this time about her good memories.

CO: How is your family in Afghanistan doing now?

HR: They're lost there. Everybody's shook and honestly because of the long distance or whatever going on over there. I never had actually full time to talk to them, maybe a couple of minutes. So they were just trying to give me a little support because I'm alone here. But overall, I know they're having their worst time.

CO: Haroon our condolences to your family and they appreciate you talking to us today. Thank you.

HR: Thank you. Thank you so much.

CH: Haroon Rahimi is the brother of Shahnaz Raufi Mohmand. She was one of three Afghan media workers, all women, killed in Jalalabad, Afghanistan, yesterday. We reached Mr. Rahimi in Toronto. And for more on this story, go to CBC.ca/AIH.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Jacob Lawrence Panel found

Guest: Sylvia Yount

CH: People who love Jacob Lawrence's art have gotten lucky again. An exhibition of the famous black American artist's work is touring right now. It includes a 30 panel series called Struggle from the History of the American People, which is incomplete. But this week, the New York Times reported that a nurse in the city recently realized a small painting that had been hanging on her dining room wall for two decades was one of the lost Jacob Lawrence panels. That's the second time one of the missing panels from the series has been discovered in a New Yorker's apartment. Back in October, Sylvia Yount of the Metropolitan Museum told Carol how a visitor to the exhibit realised one of the lost works was hanging on her friend's wall.

CO: So this visitor had an inkling that perhaps she knew something about it. She came to see it and then did she go and see her friend and say guess what?

SYLVIA YOUNT: She went immediately. Apparently, she went back to her friend immediately and told her friend, you really need to reach out to the Met about this painting. She's a lifelong New Yorker. She's, you know, grew up taking her kids to the Met to do art classes. Her family, she's many artists in the family. So when she did finally connect with us, she emphasised that she was really doing this for her relationship with the Met for the city and actually for the artist, most importantly, for Jacob Lawrence, who always intended for these works to be seen together.

CO: OK, so this woman who doesn't want to be identified. Is she a big collector?

SY: No, not even a collector, someone who through again, relationships at different points in her life, was able to explore some art acquisitions and but not a serious collector at all. And this is a painting that she cherishes deeply, she and her husband. And again, it's been hanging on their wall since really the day they bought it in 1960 at a charity auction.

CO: This is Panel 16 from this series, 30 panel series, called Struggle. What does it look like? Can you describe it?

SY: Yes, it's a really striking panel. It actually depicts a little known historical episode to some, though very important in U.S. history. It's called Shays' Rebellion. And it was actually a marking a moment in and around 1786, 1787, when Massachusetts farmers who had, were veterans had fought in the Revolutionary War and they were being taxed to death, basically. So kind of a taxation without representation theme. So there are five figures of new American soldiers, not British soldiers, but actually American soldiers who were actually in conflict and having this confrontation with five farmers, including a woman who's also included in the scene. And so it's actually a depiction of a militia. One could argue, and of a notion of early civil strife. So we've won the war. We've, you know, succeeded, fought against Britain. And here we are. Still, the struggle continues. And it was actually this historical episode that led to the gathering of the constitutional convention in Philadelphia that led to the writing of the U.S. Constitution.

CH: That was Sylvia Yount, a curator at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, speaking with Carol in October.

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Boy Scouts Rockwell

Guest: Deborah Solomon

CH: Boy Scouts of America owes victims of sexual abuse a lot of money. More than 82,000 people have come forward with claims. And in a court filing this week, the organisation said it would establish a settlement fund of at least 300 million dollars. That would mean liquidating assets owned by the century old institution. And for the first time, its lawyers have acknowledged those assets may include art by the American painter Norman Rockwell. Mr. Rockwells relationship with the Boy Scouts spanned decades, and so do the works that might be up for sale. Deborah Solomon is an art critic and Rockwell biographer. We reached her in New York City.

CO: Deborah, can you tell us which notable Rockwell works are likely to be sold by the Boy Scouts?

DEBORAH SOLOMON: Well, first of all, we don't know if it is for sale, but they have listed their assets and there are some 50 plus Norman Rockwell paintings amongst their assets. These are works that the Boy Scouts accumulated over many years. When Norman Rockwell was the official illustrator of the scouts, he did their calendars, he did their posters. He illustrated a lot of the literature for the scouts and in fact, began his career as the art editor of Boys Life magazine, which was the magazine of the Scouts that said he himself was never a scout or a troop leader. So this was pretty much a professional relationship for him as opposed to a personal passion and he always complained about doing work for the Boy Scouts because they had a lot of rules. For instance, the Scouts uniform always had to be crisp without any grass stains or signs of camping without any moss. And I think he found it a little restrictive.

CO: I understand there's one painting in this collection where a scout is saving a woman in the rain but he hasn't got a drop of rain on his uniform.

DS: Exactly. It's hilarious because he's in the middle of a hurricane. And he had originally painted a droplet of water on the scout shorts. And he was asked to paint that out by the executive committee of the Boy Scouts. They were pretty bossy as far as art goes. And the scout illustrations generally are not of the same quality as Rockwell's covers for the Saturday Evening Post. Every cover of the Post tells a story you could always imagine the life of the boy and his dog who's getting in trouble. And the Boy Scout covers don't generally come with narratives that way. They tend to be light and frothy, I would say, compared to his more substantial work. So their financial value is not clear at all. We can't assume that each painting is going to sell for a fortune. I'm sure most of them will not sell for fortunes.

CO: But the ones you're describing, the ones for the Saturday Evening Post, the ones that have sold. They have fetched tens of millions of dollars in some cases, right?

DS: Exactly. At auction, they have sold for fortunes. And I don't think the Boy Scout illustrations would be in that league, although they could certainly bring in a lot of money. The Scouts are now trying to start a 300 million dollar victims fund.

CO: It was possible the proceeds from these paintings will be included in paying for that fund?

DS: And I thought that was actually a good idea because as an art critic, I'm usually opposed to institutions that want to sell artwork. Museums, for instance, in this country have been announcing sales to raise money during the pandemic. That is something I almost always oppose. I feel like museums are not galleries. Hold on to your collections. But with the scouts, they're not a museum. So I feel like they don't need to hold on to their artwork and let the paintings enter museums, let them go elsewhere, and let the scouts compensate people who claim to have been victimised. I think Norman Rockwell would be in favour of that and would probably be horrified to learn of the degree of abuse that has been registered, 85,000 complaints.

CO: You feel that Norman Rockwell would approve of this? But is it ironic that these works of virtue and courage and the Scouts are sold to compensate victims of sexual abuse within the scouts?

DS: Right. Well, I think that's where we are as a culture right now. We're re-examining a lot of institutions, and that is a dark irony. Absolutely.

CO: I wonder what baggage these works might carry into possible marketplaces given the association. With it that, that he created these works in order to idealise life within the scouts and now the organisation facing bankruptcy for these kinds of charges and for things that were covered up for some time too.

DS: Right it's somewhat similar to the situation with the Catholic Church. I don't think that discredits his artwork, though. Nobody ever really saw his artwork as a realistic portrayal of life in America. They saw it as an idealised Arcadia, a fantasy of what life in America could be if everybody got along and there were no problems beneath the surface. I think the Boy Scouts also represent idealised values that we can't possibly expect to be literally true.

CO: And do you think that these works would come to represent the whole story, not just what he was asked to create about the Boy Scouts, but what they have come to represent?

DS: It's a very good question. I think. Well, I think the viewer would look at the Boy Scout pictures and think back to an America that was not always honest and frank about its limitations.

CO: And what do you think Norman Rockwell would think? How would he react to know that his paintings would have that other layer of meaning?

DS: I don't think he ever loved the Boy Scouts. I think he complained about doing the assignments for the Boy Scouts. He found them bossy. He thought they had too many rules. He would obviously be horrified to hear about all the complaints now lodged against the Boy Scouts for sexual abuse. And I think that he would be very comfortable with having the painting sold to help the victims.

CO: Well, Deborah we will leave it there. We'll see what happens. Thanks for speaking with us.

DS: OK, bye.

CH: Deborah Solomon is an art critic and the author of American Mirror The Art and Life of Norman Rockwell. She's in New York City.

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Ideas tonight’s promo

CH: On Ideas tonight, a formerly incarcerated woman shares what some are calling groundbreaking research on women in the prison system. The vast majority of women in Canadian prisons are survivors of physical and sexual assaults. 85 percent of women were victims of physical abuse, 70 percent had suffered sexual abuse. But a former inmate who is now a PhD student points to the resilience many of these women possess. Enhanced by deep friendships they forged behind bars. Including former inmates like Ann Hansen, who served seven years at Kingston's prison for women.

ANN HANSEN: You could become very, very close to people when you're in prison. The other prisoners. The closest analogy I can think of is vets, war vets there, it's a false equivalency to compare prison to war. I do believe war is worse than prison, but the bonds that you form in prison I think are similar. Whenever I hear soldiers talking about the bonds they have, it is a life and death situation. You know, like in the short time I was there, I think there were seven women that committed suicide. You know, you rely on one another for safety, like things like, which may seem innocuous, like, for example, when you go down for breakfast, you have an orange, you can have an orange. But if you sneak it up into your cell, it's contraband. And if they find it, then you go to SEG. So you sort of become close to people like they'll say just little things, like on your way up from the from the cafeteria, they'll say people will say the guards are frisking you up there so you don't bring your orange up or your sugar, for example, which you may be sneaking out for, for your coffee. So it's really just these little things can actually result in segregation. And then if you get segregated for, let's say, having contraband in your cell, you'll lose your family visits. You may lose your if you're if you've been approved for passes or parole, you lose them. So the bonds you form with the other prisoners are usually way more intense than the bonds you form throughout the rest of your life. To this day, I would say the women that I was in prison with, I have stronger bonds with them than women who I've spent many years with out here, who I wasn't in prison with.

CH: Anne Hanson, one of the formerly incarcerated women you'll be hearing tonight on Ideas with Nahlah Ayed after As It Happens.

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New study on talking too long

CH: You started the Zoom call 45 minutes ago, and your boss is still talking about his top 10 episodes of Grey's Anatomy or you bumped into a neighbour on a walk, you can't make out what she's seeing through her mask, so you just try to laugh whenever she laughs. Think back to a conversation you had recently. Be honest. Did that conversation end when you wanted it to? According to a new study, you probably wish it ended sooner and so did your boss and neighbour. On Monday, the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences published new research suggesting only two percent of conversations end when both participants want them to. Researchers asked over 800 people to recall their most recent conversation with friends and family. Over two thirds of participants admitted there was a point generally halfway through the conversation when they felt it should have ended. As lead researcher Adam Mastroianni put it, talking to someone is like driving a car on a long highway, "You have to wait for the appropriate time to exit. And it turns out that the distance between those exits can sometimes be quite long". Right? Well, that's a great cue for a rest stop. And to cut a long story short, just cut a long story short.

March 3, 2021 Episode Transcript

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