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The AIH Transcript for January 27, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Try as they might. A French court order is Hassan Diab to stand trial for a 1980 bombing. But the Ottawa man's lawyer says their case is even weaker than it was before when he was eventually released for lack of evidence.

CH: Author author. The Writer's Trust, rebranding its annual fiction prize to honour one of Canada's most celebrated writerly duos. And Margaret Atwood tells us why her late partner, Graeme Gibson, championed other writers above all.

CO: Cold hands, warm hearts. A lodge in Alberta was mysteriously booked solid this winter -- turns out it'll be home to the reality show The Bachelorette and one local worries that might not be a bed of roses.

CH: A tough nut to crack. UK has approved a plan to control the rapidly breeding invasive grey squirrel population by using traps baited with Nutella and oral contraceptives.

CO: Guilt by ass-ociation. A California man sues the State Highway Patrol after they arrested him for walking with his mules on a public road, a punishment he says, that's not fit for man nor beast of burden.

CH: And surely you just. A British woman's home is routinely flooded with raw sewage, and she says when she reached out for help, the water company responsible for fixing it advised her to use the bathroom less. As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Radio that supposes it's a waste not really want not situation.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: This British family's home has flooded with sewage 17 times in 2 years

Hassan Diab court: lawyer

Guest: Donald Bayne

CH: The French courts have decided to take another go at Hassan Diab. This morning, a French appeals court ordered the Ottawa man to stand trial for a 1980 synagogue bombing. The decision is the latest instalment in a more than decade long saga that has seen the university lecturer controversially extradited from Canada, then held without trial for three years before French judges found the evidence against him so lacking that they ordered him released. In 2018, Hassan Diab spoke with Carol shortly after he returned to Canada and was reunited with his wife and two kids.

HASSAN DIAB: It was a great day, especially with the kids. Like the crazier they go, the happier I go. You can't put the price on that.

CO: When we spoke with your wife, she described that every time you were close to getting out, every time when this nightmare of hers and yours was about to end, it would tumble into another round of it. What for you were the darkest moments of that?

HASSAN DIAB: Well, every time I saw this overturning the decision of the all these judges then I would feel miserable. I would feel this is the end of the world. I'm not able even to describe the emotions and the frustration because I'm alone in the cell, you know, and I'm thinking of what was going in their heads on these people's heads who say no, simply because they had the power. And that makes you really feel so down.

CH: Donald Bayne is Hassan Diab's longtime lawyer. We reached him in Ottawa.

CO: Mr. Bayne, how did Hassan Diyab react when he got the news that France has ordered him to stand trial?

DONALD BAYNE: It's devastating to him and the whole family on every level. I mean, life for them has been, since this appeal started and continues and has been now for 12 years, constantly tenuous. That's the life they live -- a constantly tenuous life with this hanging over them. And as the case grows more and more crystal clear of innocence, the French continue to persist. I might add it's crushing them financially too. This small family has had to fight for years now. You can imagine the burden, but the emotional toll is even greater.

CO: We spoke with him in that clip three years ago when he was returned because the French judges ordered Hassan Diab to be released because there wasn't enough evidence for him to stand trial. So what has changed?

DB: That's a very good question. What has changed is that there is even more evidence of innocence today than when the two French investigative judges concluded that the evidence showed that he was actually innocent and was not even in France when the bomber was and dismissed the case. The new evidence effectively discredits the sole shred of evidence on which he was originally extradited to France, which was the handwriting opinion. And there were experts here in Canada who told the Canadian judge it was completely unreliable. But the latest French handwriting and the new evidence says it was scientifically inadequate methodology. And in their report, the two latest French experts say we are in total agreement with the defence experts.

CO: And we'll just give a quick explanation is that this handwriting was the one piece of evidence that they were sort of hanging the case on, saying that his handwriting matched that of the terrorist of this bombing in 1980. But then other handwriting experts said, no, there's just no way that says, in fact, it might not even be the same person. So is that evidence back -- submitted once again?

DB: Well, it's still part of how the French run these things, all these things remain in the dossier. But the latest French handwriting completely discredits the previous handwriting. So this thin shred of evidence that they thought they had a sheer opinion that all the other experts said was unreliable, the French themselves now say is unreliable. It was reliable enough, unfortunately, for Canadian extradition law, which is in a poor state, but not reliable enough to justify its use in France.

CO: And we should point out that the judge who ordered his extradition also was highly doubtful about the evidence that was used, but that the bar is so low for an extradition hearing that he had no choice. Is that right?

DB: Unjustifiably low, Carol.

CO: Yeah, just for people to remember, there were four people who were killed in that synagogue bombing in 1980.

DB: A terrible crime.

CO: And 40 people injured. But do they accept that he wasn't there, that there's evidence that show that Hassan Diab wasn't even in France at that time?

DB: Let me read a quote from the media report of the latest hearing before the Court of Appeal, just before they issued this judgement. "At the hearing, the general prosecutor's office maintained its requests for this case to go ahead while admitting, 'doubts' about the presence of Mr. Diab in Paris on the day of the attack. The prosecution believes that the body of evidence gathered by investigators nevertheless deserves to be debated in court." They admit they doubt he was even there. The evidence shows that. There's independent evidence from the University of Beirut, witnesses and documents. He was writing exams when the bomber was in Paris. They doubt that he was in Paris, but they want a trial.

CO: So what do you think this is about then?

DB: Well, I think this is political. The atmosphere in France is justifiably high pitched about terrorism. The public puts demands on the government to find somebody responsible, and the pressures lead to this kind of injustice.

CO: After he was returned to Canada Justin Trudeau said that what happened to him never should have happened, and that's referring to the extradition. Will there be another attempt to extradite him to France to stand trial?

DB: Carol, I recall he also added one further line to what you just quoted and that it should never happen again. Will there be a further attempt to extradite him? I can't predict. This case has not followed rational evidence-based decision making.

CO: So what are the chances, do you think, that your client, Hassan, will stand trial in France?

DB: Well, the odds right now are that he's going to. There will be an appeal to the French Cour de cassation, the French Supreme Court. But I am led to believe by the French lawyers that these are highly technical appeals that rarely succeed. So one looks at the landscape today and says, well, they're going to have a show trial.

CO: He was arrested in 2008. He was in France by 2014. He was home in 2008. How much longer do you think this will go on?

DB: I expect and am informed by the French lawyers a year and a half at the Supreme Court, it took three plus years for the Court of Appeal to make a decision in this case. And then I don't know how much longer at a trial and whether they will simply try him in absentia.

CO: Mr. Bayne we will follow this story and I appreciate speaking with you today. Thank you.

DB: Yes, and the family is grateful for your interest Carol. Thank you.

CH: Donald Bayne is Hassan Diab's lawyer. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music: Calm Music]

England flooded home

Guest: Vickie Thomas

CH: Plumbing problems exist on a continuum, most of them sit on the annoying end of the scale, some go past that to worrying and pass that you have disgusting and then disastrous. But Vickie Thomas of Pontesbury, England is facing an ongoing plumbing problem that's best described as apocalyptic. For years now, Vickie Thomas's home has been flooded repeatedly with sewage water, as in raw sewage. The situation is so horrific that Ms. Thomas, who has three young kids, has even developed a blood infection. We reached Vickie Thomas at her home in Pontesbury, England, about three hours north west of London. And a gentle warning: if you're eating, some of the details in this story will cause an instant loss of appetite.

CO: Vickie, just how often does your house filled with water?

VICKIE THOMAS: We are currently on flood number 17 since September 2018.

CO: And how can we be sure that it's sewage water that's backing up into your house?

VT: Because it comes straight out of the sewer pipes itself and there is faeces, sanitary products all within the water that is entering the house.

CO: Are you serious?

VT: Yeah.

CO: Where is it coming from?

VT: We are the end of the line of five different properties. So their sewage comes through a network of pipes within the gardens enters the final section, which is within our property, and it just spews out everywhere.

CO: And there's also food waste. There's everything mixed in with this.

VT: Yes, you name it. Everything you flushed down the toilet or put down your sink, it ends up in my house.

CO: Now, how long have you been in the house?

VT: And we moved in on the 6th of August 2018.

CO: And was this to something had started then or did you buy a house that already had the sewage problem?

VT: Unbeknown to us and the lady that owned it prior to us was a very elderly lady and she had been having issues but had never reported it to the water company. So when we came to buy the house, we did all relevant searches and nothing was flagged up because nothing had been reported to the water company.

CO: What does the water company say about this?

VT: Not a lot.

CO: But surely this is somebody's responsibility to deal with. I mean, you've got kids, right?

VT: Yeah. Last September, they came up with a solution that one of the properties that joins onto us, is a very large property and they have a septic tank and within that is an electric pump. So once the tank gets to a certain level, the pump pushes all of the contents of that tank into the network. They said that they were going to divert them up the drive into another system. So we thought great stuff. So they were supposed to do what they called a trial dig on the 26th of October. I chased and chased and chased to see what was happening. Why hadn't this work taken place? I finally received a phone call on the 13th of January to tell me that the work will not be taking place because Severn Trent's' budget won't stretch to it, and I'm just to manage the best I can.

CO: And you have three children. You get a 10 year old, a 12 year old, and you got a little baby.

VT: Yeah.

CO: Well, this can't be good for them.

VT: No. I mean, last week -- my 12 year old as amazing as he is -- I had to leave my youngest at 12 weeks at the time in his care while I tried to save our house. You know, a 12 year old shouldn't be doing that.

CO: A 12 year old shouldn't be seeing his shoes float by in a sea of sewage either.

VT: No.

CO: You've obviously tried to talk to the authorities. I understand at one point, you've been able to get out and get to some other place. Where can you go when this happens?

VT: We can't now. We had what we called our safe house, which was my mum. Unfortunately, I lost my mum in April of last year to COVID, so we haven't got that safe house anymore.

CO: Vickie, I'm so sorry.

VT: Yes, it's been a bit of a...yeah.

CO: And now you've developed a blood infection that they believe is associated with this sewage?

VT: Yeah, that was February of last year. We flooded and I cleaned it all up because I always do --disinfectant and everything throughout the whole house. And about four days later, I kept saying, I feel rubbish, my body hurts, my skin's tight all over my face, my skin was cracking and bleeding. So I'm not one that goes to the doctors very often. So I went and I was talking to the doctor and she said, you know, your symptoms and what you're displaying reminds me of somebody that's been in contact with raw sewage and contaminated rat products. She goes, but that wouldn't apply to when I went. Well, funnily enough, four days ago, our house flooded with raw sewage and it did actually bring a dead rat in that I had to clean up. So she did blood tests and it came back that I had leptospirosis, which is a form of wells disease, which is contracted from raw sewage and rats.

CO: I just can't imagine how much you're up against. And your neighbours are not getting this problem.

VT: No, it's just us.

CO: Could they slow down on the flushing when this is happening?

VT: Severn Trent said this that when it starts to rain, I'm supposed to go and knock on my neighbour's door and ask them not to use the toilet and not use any form of water to enter the system.

CO: Vickie, I'm so sorry this is happening to you. And I do hope that somebody decides that they have to help you get through this. But thanks for speaking with us.

VT: Not a problem. Thank you so much.

CO: Take care.

VT: And you.

CH: Vickie Thomas is a resident of Pontesbury, Shropshire, England. We reached her at her home. We also reached Severn Trent, the water company in the area. In a statement, the company told As It Happens, "We've already spent tens of thousands of pounds carrying out extensive work at her home and will be looking to carry out more work where possible to further reduce the risk of flooding." And you can find out more about Ms. Thomas's story and see some of the damage caused by the flooding on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Jasper Bachelorette booked

Guest: Bob Covey

CH: Obviously, we watched The Bachelorette to see strangers fall in love in the classic fashion on TV. But we also watch it for the locations and now we know where part of the upcoming season's drama will take place at Jasper Park Lodge in snowy Alberta. That solves a mystery that's been bugging Jasper residents for days. Why the 446 room lodge was mysteriously booked up this winter for nine weeks straight, thanks to a scoop by the National Post, now confirmed by the CBC, mystery solved. Bob Covey is the editor and publisher of The Jasper Local. We reached him in Jasper.

CO: Bob, what does Jasperiates make of this hot gossip about The Bachelorette?

BOB COVEY: [Chuckles] There's a bit of a buzz around town for sure. I think you'll find a mixed reaction. Some people probably would like The Bachelorette and the film crew to stay home. And I think a lot of people are also interested in the exposure that the show will give Jasper National Park.

CO: And how did you react when you heard the news?

BC: Oh, I think maybe there was a bit of an eye roll just because of the show itself -- I can't say I'm a big fan. I know what it's about a little bit. I think it's good entertainment for some folks. And I remember watching about 10 or 15 years ago when it first came out and finding it a little cringy then. [Laughter] So I'm surprised it's still going on.

CO: [Chuckles] But cringy has a big market there Bob.

BC: [Chuckles] I think Jasper is a tourist town, so we're sort of grappling with our identity during this pandemic. It's a bit of a dilemma we find ourselves in to want to welcome visitors while at the same time keeping the community safe. So it's not an unusual predicament. I think it's just a microcosm of how we operate in this COVID context.

CO: Now, because you've seen part of it, and I've seen a tiny bit of it too, it is cringe inducing -- but they go on dates, right, to faraway places with these wannabe bachelors who are pursuing the bachelorette. And it's very exotic, very romantic, very sexy. So they have to confine themselves to Jasper, right? So if they come to you and ask for recommendations to where to have these steamy scenes, what will you recommend?

BC: [Chuckles] I'm sure they will be asking me. But, you know, there was surprisingly a lot to do in the winter. Some folks in the summer asked how we, year-round residents, can make it through the cold north winters, but if you dress for it and embrace the cold, it's an amazing place to be. I would suggest maybe going out for an outdoor bonfire, you know, maybe getting that hot cocoa on the lake or something like that. Stargazing, that'll be I'm sure on the planners itinerary. Cross-country skiing. There's lots of cool things. Ice caving, that's sort of a new one. So I think if they're creative and open minded and if they're wearing the right boots, they can have a really romantic time.

CO: [Laughs] Okay, I don't know why that's not convincing. So The Bachelorette, maybe for one of these dates that she has with one of the bachelors, she goes for a weenie roast. Is that a suggestion?

BC: [Chuckles] ve you tried it, Carol?

CO: Well, yes, I have actually [laughs] but not so much in the snows. What advice would you give them because there is a lot of flesh in these encounters? How can they protect their parts from frostbite in your opinion?

BC: Yikes. Well, merino wool, a good beanie or toque, as we call it. [Carol laughs] And I think you just got to stay moving, you know, whatever your mind wanders with that comment. But the Jasper Park Lodge has an incredible fireplace, and their whole Emerald Lounge is quite romantic. And I don't think they'll have any problem finding gorgeous interior shots. And as far as getting outside and keeping it romantic, I think a lot of people in Jasper would tell you that it's not too hard at all. You just have to be a little bit creative.

CO: Right. And you can get a fairly good embrace through many many layers of clothing, right?

BC: [Laughs] It's squeakier when the Gore-Tex starts rubbing [laughter] but definitely you can get cosy.

CO: Okay, now I'm just trying to picture what stilettos look like with snow pants.

BC: [Laughs] You wouldn't be able to see them because they'd be making a posthole in the snow, probably.

CO: Okay, just one serious note while we have to ask -- I mean, because the reason why they're going to Jasper and all this and they are quarantining until they're ready, there is a safety element to this because of covid-19. But how equipped is the hospital for dealing with an outbreak?

BC: You know, I do know that Jasper doesn't have the resources of a big city. We have one ventilator and one ICU 00 if I'm not mistaken. So, yeah, we would probably be under equipped if a big outbreak was to happen. But I also know that at the Fairmont Jasper Park Lodge, they are taking above and beyond mitigation measures. We can see that up at the ski hill, frankly, when people are trying to enjoy the outdoors in the midst of a pandemic. So I think Jasper has got this competing, as I said, priorities of welcoming at the same time safeguarding.

CO: Now, do you plan on watching this season of the show when it goes to air?

BC: [Chuckles] I doubt I'll be booking off my whatever it is Tuesday night to watch. But at the same time, I will have to admit, you know, if some of the people and places that I love in this town are showcased, I'll definitely be checking it out -- maybe just on the highlight threat on Twitter or something.

CO: Watching for that steamy scene at the weenie roast.

BC: Yeah, you'll know it when you see it. [Laughs]

CO: [Laughs] And I'll know that it was your idea.

BC: We'll both know that. [Laughs]

CO: All right, Bob, it's great to talk to you. Thanks.

BC: It's a pleasure, Carol. Thanks a lot.

CH: Bob Covey is the editor and publisher of The Jasper Local. We reached him in Jasper, Alberta.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Mule Way

CH: With friends like his, you would expect John Sears to be stubborn. The California nomad is still pretty mad about getting arrested last January, which is why he's suing the State Highway Patrol for damages. And he also wants to be reimbursed the 266 dollars he paid to get his mules out of the impound. And he's asking the court to protect him from future arrest when he's out and about with his mules. John Sears was picked up last year after drivers reported a safety hazard on the road, that hazard was Mr. Sears and his two mules, all of whom police suggest were predictably uncooperative when asked to clear the roadway. That might be because Mr. Sears, who is better known as mule man or simply mule, is guided by a larger purpose than just getting from A to B with his Ms. The 73 year old is a self-identified land wanderer who says he has meandered with mules and their parts for more than three decades. His quixotic goal is to preserve a way of life. After all, the arrest took place on a historic trail on which one of the state's founders travelled with mules. Life in the slow lane isn't for everyone, but it also isn't illegal. Or, as his lawyer puts it, America's roads are designed for its citizens, its cars, its horses, its mules, its pedestrians, its travellers. Which seems fair. And before you judge Mr. Sears, walk a mule in his shoes.

[Music: Piano Music]

Part 2: Margaret Atwood says book prize honours late partner Graeme Gibson, champion for Canadian writers

Feature: Atwood Gibson Prize

Guest: Margaret Atwood

CH: 60,000 dollars would be a welcome cash infusion for pretty much any Canadian writer. But 60000 dollars with Margaret Atwood and Graeme Gibson's names attached to it has a whole other kind of allure. The couple is, after all, Can-lit royalty, not just in their brilliant production of the stuff, but in their tireless-lifelong defence of their colleagues. Mr. Gibson died in 2019. But Ms. Atwood has continued their work and as of today, it continues with her name and Graeme's on one of Canada's richest prizes for fiction, The Writers' Trust of Canada's newly rebranded Atwood Gibson Fiction Prize. Margaret Atwood joined Carol to talk about the news and about a lifetime of advocating for writers alongside Graeme Gibson.

CO: Margaret Atwood, first of all, welcome to As It Happens.

MARGARET ATWOOD: A pleasure to be there.

CO: What does it mean to you to have the writer's trust rename this fiction prize for you and Graeme?

MA: Well, we should reverse and say "For Graeme and me" because he did the work of setting up the trust. In fact, it was his idea in the first place. So let us say "For Graeme." And looking back over correspondence, which I was doing today when we first set it up, it was a screaming mess, trying to get it organised. And Jack McClelland was in charge of it for a while. And I have several letters from him saying thanks, but that wasn't a nice thing to do. [Laughs]

CO: What do you mean?

MA: It wasn't nice of Graeme to put me in charge of it. [Laughter]. We did find at one point that one executive director was actually slipping bills under the carpet and not telling anybody about them. I know it's a joke out of a comic strip, but that really happened. But it's on much better footing now. In fact, it's on very spectacular footing. And I think George Woodcock was a big part of that because he left part of his estate to be a fund to support writers and emergencies.

CO: But The Writers' Trust itself -- we're going back 45 years.

MA: We are going way back in time.

CO: Yes. [Chuckles]

MA: Going back back. So, you know those movies where they tear the pages of the calendar to show the years are passing.

CO: That they're fluttering away and we're back in 76' with you and Graeme, Pierre Berton, Margaret Laurence, David Young. What is it about that time, 1976, that led to that?

MA: Okay, so let's go even further back in time to the year 1960. And if you go to the University of Toronto quarterly of the summer of 61, you can see that they are reviewing all of the Canadian books published in Canada in a given year in a section of that periodical. So very few novels were being published because it was assumed there wasn't a readership for them and that good books came from other countries such as the United States, England, and France. And if you were a Canadian writer, you were sort of second rate just by definition. And people really said to me in that year, 'If you want to be a writer, you have to leave Canada.' And that went on for a while. So one of the results was that we had no agents in the 60s and nobody knew what was supposed to be in a contract. So we started the union for those reasons. And again, it was Graeme who was the main driving force that..

CO: This is The Writers' Union as opposed to The Writers' Trust?

MA: Yep, the writers union. And once that was up and going, we got all of these high school teachers saying we would like to teach Canadian literature, but is there any? So Graeme, and Yves, and David Young worked with them to put together some pamphlets about what were the Canadian books and what were they about and how could you teach them. At which point the union said, you can't do that within the union because you can't discriminate against a member's books. So you can't put in one person's book and not another person's -- big fight on the floor. At which point Graeme said, okay, I'll start a different organisation. And that's how The Writers' Trust was started.

CO: When we get into the 1970s, when you say how nascent it was in the 60s and the struggles you had. Many of us that were studying, James Reaney was my Can-lit professor at that point in the 70s. There are people like Alice Munro, you, Mordecai Richler, and Austin Clarke, Al Purdy, and Marian Engel. It looks like it was very rich and diverse. When you started The Writers' Trust in 1976, what was the need that that was answering amongst...

MA: I would say, money. Because I worked with House of Anansi at the end of the 60s and early 70s. We published Austin Clarke. We published Marian Engle. I knew about the financial situations of those people. If you were relying just on the royalties from your Canadian book sales in those years, you needed another job. So all of these were responses to problems that we knew writers were having because we now knew other writers through the writers union. So we were hearing these stories.

CO: And these people began to become, well, not just well-known, but actually getting a bit of money. And Graeme was helping to raise money for this. We have a really interesting bit of tape from 1987. This is Graeme Gibson. And he was trying to come up with ways to raise money. And there was the Can-lit food book, if you recall, which you created as a fundraiser for Pen Canada. And here's Graeme talking about his contribution to the food book.

[SOUNDCLIP: GRAEME GIBSON: Take your soup pot, cover the bottom of it with what looks like the right amount of olive oil -- just enough for it to cook. Very slowly, the cloves of garlic. The best stuff -- I mean, if you use the best stuff, you won't be sorry. So use as good olive oil as you're inclined to buy. Chuck in all of you garlic cloves and let them, I think the word is, sweat. You let them just sit there on very low heat until they soften up nicely. You then pour in your six cups of stock and you're well on your way.]

CO: [Laughter] That's Graeme talking about his famous garlic soup on the CBC back in 1987, and that was to raise money. I mean, over the years, The Writers' Trust has given out, well, hundreds of thousands of dollars. How strapped for money were you then?

MA: We were strapped. But that Can-lit food book was something we did first to raise money for Pen to get to actually hire somebody because we had started it with a few postage stamps and some bridge chairs. And second, to start the Marian Engle Award. And it isn't a cookbook -- it is excerpts from Canadian writing about food and some of it pretty terrible food and cannibalism, of course, because we have some cannibalism in the writing. [Laughter] And then we asked the writer to send us their recipes. So unfortunately, a number of them couldn't actually cook. So Michael Ondaatje's recipe is grapefruit. You take your grapefruit, you cut it in two, and then if you want to, you can put a maraschino cherry on top -- that's his recipe. And Rick Salutin's, I think, for toast. And we did raise the money to do those two things that we had set out to do. Some of the things we did to raise money were even funnier.

CO: Like what?

MA: We were going to do this number. So it was a bunch of American writers who wrote a soft porn novel purporting to be by a person who didn't exist, a book called Naked Came The Stranger. And they had a bet on it, they could get it on the bestseller list -- which they did. So we thought we should do that to raise money for these ventures. The catch was that none of our writers were any good at it. [Laughter] So that never happened. But Marian Engle's book Bear did come out of that project and started as something for our Across Canada Buy Pornographic Book.

CO: You're listening to As It Happens. And I am speaking with Margaret Atwood about The Writers' Trust Fiction Prize, which has just been renamed the Atwood Gibson Prize -- in honour of Margaret and her late partner, Graeme Gibson. And the first question I asked you, Margaret, I realise you never answered, which was: what does it mean for you to have this prize named for for you and Graeme?

MA: Well, I think Graeme would be really very pleased by it because he did put humungous amount of work into ventures like that, into the union, into the trust and then into Pen Canada and then he moved on into birds and into BirdLife International and Nature Canada and the Palely Island Bird Observatory. So he was a person who grew up in a tradition of public service. His dad was a general in World War Two. And I think he was just always inclined that way.

CO: He, in 1993, Graeme was awarded the Harbourfront Festival Prize for lifetime contribution to literature in Canada, amongst all the other things you've name -- what he did for literature was so important. I just want to play a short clip from his speech accepting that award. So here's Graeme again.

[SOUNDCLIP: GRAEME GIBSON: We have been told that the first screenings to be sold out at the recent festival of festivals were the Canadian films. And yet it is virtually impossible for most Canadians to see these movies or for that matter, any Canadian film and commercial release. This ridiculous and destructive situation occurs because we do not control the means of distribution. For similar reasons, our mass market book racks, those in cigar and convenience stores, drugstores and airports offer pathetically few titles by Canadian authors. The fact is, given economies of scale, the size of print runs and so forth, Canadian publishers simply cannot afford to have unsold copies of their books pulped as huge foreign publishers can and do. I won't even get into the question of whether or not such wastefulness should be tolerated, especially now as we're forced to confront the grievous damage being done by thoughtless consumption. Suffice it to say that our problem with the availability of Canadian films and mass market books result from inappropriate business practises, practises that deny Canadians access to their own culture. Wherever we look, whether to television or magazine racks, we find more examples. Virtually everywhere, the cultural expression of our community of dreams is in danger of being overwhelmed by, at best, the dreams of others and at worst, overwhelmed by the commercial solution to some transnational company's marketing problems. Is any wonder, then, the Canadians often have such great difficulties in seeing who they are?]

CO: That was Graeme Gibson in 1993, passionate, angry about this issue. There's so much to talk about in that clip. I don't know how much has actually changed since then. What do you make of it?

MA: Well it has actually gotten somewhat worse. It's not that people aren't reading books. They are -- they're reading a lot of books, especially right now, under this really unpleasant lockdown. But getting books by Canadian writers into the hands of readers is still a problem.

CO: What he says -- I mean, the overarching idea there is that Canadians are denied access to their own culture, which continues to be such an issue, whether you know a lot about the industry or not, that is something that Canadian writers are still faced with. How different are things now than they were when you started The Writers' Trust in the 1970s?

MA: Between 1960 and now, there are a lot different. Between 1970 and now -- let's put 1970 as the year at which the novel finally became something that publishers were willing to invest in, even if they didn't have a British or an American co-publisher. So it has always been a problem of economies of scale. It's going to cost about the same to print a book no matter where you are. But if your audience is 10 times bigger or if your prospective audience is 10 times bigger and makes a lot of difference. Canadians have always sort of, -- I shouldn't say always -- have recently punched above their weight. And there have been some real growth areas. For instance, in 1970, there were no Indigenous novelists and poets that anybody can find, so they weren't being published. The breakthrough years is towards the end of the 80s. So the appearance of Tomson Highway, Janette Armstrong, then the advent of Thomas King and then everything opened up.

CO: That's a major change.

MA: A major change.

CO: And that's much of what is behind that passion we heard in Graeme's clip just there. And I know or I can imagine how hard it was for you to lose Graeme as a partner. But as a source of the conviction we're hearing there --- the passion he brought to demand for Canadians to have access to their own culture, to their own dreams. How big of a loss does that represent?

MA: Well, I would never have done any of these things on my own, not in a million years. I was not an originator of that kind of group effort, whereas he was. He'd been in the army, so he actually really enjoyed getting people to work together on a common objective. And it's not a thing I'm good at. I don't like meetings. [Chuckles] I'm rumoured to have run the shortest meetings of the writers union ever when I was chair. "Okay here's the meeting. Let's do it." Then we're gone. Goodbye. [Laughs] But he liked all the rest of it. He liked talking to people, hearing what they thought, working out compromises, figuring out how to do things. He really enjoyed that. So let's not talk in terms of loss -- let's say he was there at a time when it was really helpful. He actually was somebody who was able to do those things. I was the, "Margaret, just stand over there and say that..." [Laughter] But we haven't talked about prizes and what they actually mean to people in the early stages of their careers.

CO: And that's what I want to turn to what Writers' Trust has done since then, because now it's extremely organised. The money that they have now, it's distributing not just to the big prize winners, the big authors of the prize like the one that you and Graeme are now named for, but just the emerging writers awards and the non-fiction awards, the career achievement awards, all of those things. What do you think that's accomplished?

MA: Well, I think it can be very very encouraging for people who have felt, well, broke. But in addition to feeling broke, who have felt nobody has read my book. Matt Cohen used to say, 'I just heaved another brick into the swamp' [laughter] when he published a book. Like, who noticed? And I think it can make a huge amount of difference, and I was an early winner of an award, I won the governor general's award in 1967 when that was the only kind of award that you could win. And it wasn't very much money, but it was a lot of money to me at the time. It was a thousand dollars. And what did I do with that? I bought an electric typewriter. I was so thrilled. And I bought some contact lenses, Carol, [laughter] back in the days when they were hard and would fall out into your mashed potatoes and go along the street and suddenly clutch your eye because something had blown in. I was thrilled with them and I stuck them into my eyes and put on the dress I had borrowed from my roommate and went off to the governor general's awards. Since I wasn't used to wearing my lenses, I started weeping. And there I was at the dinner because you go out to dinner in those days with these two lovely gentlemen from Quebec patting me because they thought I had been overcome with emotion, which wasn't true. And the first opportunity I rushed into the washroom to take them out. And who should be in there but Margaret Laurence, who had won that year for fiction -- having a meltdown. So we had a sort of damp meeting in the washroom.

CO: I'm not sure that's a good idea to give you people awards then. [Laughter].

MA: [Laughter] Do you think we misspend them?

CO: [Chuckles] Obviously. But when you mention Margaret Laurence and the awards in addition, I think the people know the governor general's awards, they know the Giller Prize. Lesser known are, for whatever reason, The Writers' Trust Awards. But the prize that you and Graeme are now named -- the first winner of that 24 years ago was Austin Clarke. But since then, Lawrence Hill, Miriam Toews, Andre Alexis. But at the same time, writers, as we learn from the latest information on that 2018 study published which shows that the average Canadian writer is making less than they made even ten years ago, they're making less than 10,000 dollars a year. Charlie Foran writes about it this week in the Globe that there are people who are going to be evicted from their homes, writers and poets, unless they change that.

MA: We went up against the stuff over the years. I can remember -- we did manage to turn this around. But one finance minister back in the day wanted to trade royalties as passive income. So the idea was that you just sat on your rear end and the money just kind of rolled through the window and that you weren't actually working for it. And when we talk about different kinds of writing work, I always say, okay, it's a job. You have to get up in the morning, you have to work on it. It's one part inspiration and nine parts perspiration. So we have had those attitudes and we have ultimately been able to turn some of them around. But it's the general attitude towards artists. Everybody thinks they are one, but nobody wants to acknowledge that other people aren't. It's very odd.

CO: Graeme in that earlier clip speaks of the access to your own country, to be able to speak to Canadians because otherwise it gets usurped -- their material, their dreams become ours and not our own. And it was so important to him that Canadians have access to their own dreams and their own writers. Do you think that we're closer to that now? Do you think that the things like The Writers' Trust has actually brought us closer to the idea that our writers are so important to our identity?

MA: Well, we know there are some now. [Chuckles] Whereas if you're talking to people in 1965, they would say, well, there is a Canadian writer, Stephen Leacock, that's the only one I've heard of. Or they would say if there are any, they are second-rate, they have to be, because why else would they be here? And I think that has really changed a lot. We know that there are all of these artists in Canada, whereas once we would not have known that. And we do know that they're important. But there's still a lot of confusion as to who should pay for what they eat for lunch.

CO: Congratulations Margaret, for the Atwood Gibson Writers' Trust Fiction Prize -- and for everything that you and Graeme did to bring us to this place. And thanks for speaking with us.

MA: Thank you Carol. Do you think I should put on a blue fairy costume and turn up to the first award?

CO: [Laughs] I think you should, but leave those old contact lenses at home.

MA: [Laughter] Lovely talking to you.

CO: You too. Take care.

MA: You too.

CH: Margaret Atwood is the author of dozens of novels, poetry collections, essays and children's books. Her most recent novel is The Testaments. She and her late partner, Graeme Gibson, were amongst the co-founders of The Writers' Trust in 1976. Today, the trust announced its annual fiction award would be renamed the Atwood Gibson Fiction Prize, and the winner will now receive 60,000 dollars. You can find more on this story and listen to a longer version of Carol's conversation with Ms. Atwood on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Drum & Bass Music]

Martha

CH: Daniel Schubert grew up knowing that his grandmother, Martha Katz, had survived the Holocaust. He also knew her own mother and two of her siblings had not. But until recently, the B.C. filmmaker didn't know much more than that. Mr. Schubert says his grandfather would occasionally share stories, but Ms. Katz was much more tightlipped. So when he set out to create a documentary about her experiences, it proved to be an education for them both. His film, which is called Martha, is being released today by the National Film Board to mark International Holocaust Remembrance Day. And this morning, Daniel Schubert spoke with the CBC about what he learnt, making it and about a moment his grandmother learnt some disturbing new information herself.

DANIEL SCHUBERT: We went to a museum that is right by our house. That's the Museum of Tolerance, Simon Wiesenthal, Los Angeles. And as we were walking through it, she was saying -- me and the docent were saying, are you okay? You sure this is all right? She says, I don't carem I was there. But then the moment when we went into the makeshift gas chamber near the end and she heard some startling news, she didn't know that at times the gas chamber could take up to 45 minutes to work. And that was kind of a big moment for her, because this whole time, her whole life, she had been picturing that her mother and two little brothers had died quickly. And so that was a moment in the film where I had to kind of take care of her and really think as a grandson rather than as a filmmaker about what she's going through at this time, because for the rest of it, she was extremely tough and she didn't seem to care. But that was a big moment for her.

STEPHEN QUINN: And right up until that point, she is so tough. She's so matter of fact about it. You know, she's not afraid to look at anything because she's actually seen it in real life.

DANIEL SCHUBERT: Exactly. And that's what she says. She says, I was there --n't a museum exhibit is going to do any psychological harm.

STEPHEN QUINN: Tell me, what finally moved you to make a film about her?

DANIEL SCHUBERT: Well, it was really the Charlottesville rally. That was a big moment when there were people chanting, Jews will not replace us. Donald Trump said there were good people on both sides. That was a big moment, as well as doing research into Holocaust awareness and discovering that around 50 percent of millennials don't know or have very little knowledge of the Holocaust. So if millennials, of which I am one, don't know about the Holocaust -- how are the next generations going to know, especially when these survivors are dying off? So that was the impetus. I said I have to get these stories down, if not just for her great grandchildren, but for the world, because it appears that you're never going to get enough new information.

STEPHEN QUINN: And how do you make something that happened 76 years ago, as horrifying as it was, how do you make it relevant to young people? How do you get them to pay attention?

DANIEL SCHUBERT: Well, I think with, first of all, a personality like my grandma, there's something about her that makes it a pleasure to learn about the Holocaust, because she's a great gatekeeper because she's such a great personality that you're going to learn about the Holocaust through her eyes. She's funny. She's tough. She's a very strong woman, very independent. And yes, she's a one of a kind gem. She sees me wearing a T-shirt and she says that's what you're going to wear on the TV? And I say, well, what would you like me to wear? And she gets me an old shirt of my grandfather's that let's just say would not be out of place on Saturday Night Fever.

CH: Filmmaker Daniel Schubert speaking with the CBC's Stephen Quinn on The Early Edition today about his documentary, Martha.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Part 3: London PPE recycling

London PPE recycling

Guest: Lina Bowden

CH: Odds are you've come across a discarded face mask, which you probably gave the same wide berth you'd give a dead raccoon. Most of us wouldn't touch one with a 10 foot pole, let alone think about making something useful from it -- but Lina Bowden would, and she has. The London, Ontario based entrepreneur, has always put sustainability at the centre of her business. And now she's tackling the huge problem of pandemic waste. With some help from federal funds, her company, Lifecycle, will produce new protective equipment from PPE discarded by hospitals across Ontario. We reached Lina Bowden in London, Ontario.

CO: Lina, there are a lot of people wondering and worrying about where all this disposable PPE is going. How did your company come up with the idea that this was a business opportunity?

LINA BOWDEN: Well, we decided that after pivoting from making women's fashion as a lot of different garment manufacturers did in the spring, we were initially making reusable gowns and PPE. And quickly the demand was identified more focussed on disposables.

CO: So you had the idea but then it's one thing to figure out, okay there must be some way we can recycle this PPE. What did you have to put in place in order to actually move to where you are now, which is going into production?

LB: Yes, this is still early days. We're just launching this recycling. The key thing was getting funding from NGen, which is basically federal government funding. So once we were able to identify that we could obtain some money to be able to buy the equipment that's needed to be able to do the recycling and then to create textiles from those basically recycled PPE elements, then we could be off to the races.

CO: We're all seeing these masks lying around on the ground. We all have piles of them -- everywhere we're seeing them. All these different things the health workers have to wear. So are you actually going around collecting all that stuff?

LB: No. We really wish we could do that [laughs] -- that we could go to people's houses and grab all their waste PPE. But really, the focus is on hospitals because you can imagine the volume of waste that happens at hospitals. And, you know, this is a complex project. The first phase is to collect what's called blue wrap from the surgery room. So there's a lot of waste that happens with disposable wraps that's used to basically sterilise the surgery rooms. So we're starting with the collection of that material first and then we'll be able to move to also recycling anything that's made out of polypropylene, which the gowns are. So gowns and masks and other PPE. But the focus is really on Ontario hospitals and getting Ontario hospitals to sign on to a recycling program where we can actually reclaim that waste from the hospitals, let's say, weekly and then take those volumes of waste and start recycling them and making pellets and then making the textile out of those pellets.

CO: Right. Because right now we've been told that there is an estimate of 63,000 tonnes of COVID-19 related PPE that's going into landfill. So this is a part of that. And what will you make this recycled material into? What products?

LB: So our production has been primarily isolation gowns. So we will mostly make isolation gowns and surgical gowns. We also make coveralls. We can make masks, although I think mask is sort of a specialised production. So our focus is more on garments, things like coveralls, gowns, scrubs, anything that is, you know, of a disposable nature.

CO: Right. And before people think that what you're doing is you're cutting this up and stitching it together. [Laughter] You actually mentioned just briefly, it's actually reduced into pellets and then remade from that plastic, right?

LB: Yeah, it's quite an involved process. So there's going to be a plant in Brantford that's actually being installed as we speak. So sometime by early to late March, we will have a recycling plant. And we've got five hospitals already, you know, kind of expression of interest. And we're trying to sign on some pilot hospitals to be able to sort of do the first round tests of the collection of this material, running it through a shredder and then reprofess to create these pellets. And those you know, those pellets could actually be sold on the open market. They can be made into injection moulded bins and basins, or they could be sold to make this textile that we are, you know, wanting to make. So then the next step is buying a huge textile machine that will take those pellets and then make this textile out of it. And that that textile will be what feeds our production line for down.

CO: How many people do you think you'll end up employing with this project?

LB: Right now, we're already up to a staff of 60 -- we were at five last March, and we've been slowly growing and growing and expanding our operation. And we are, you know, right now we're in a recruiting process and we also were able to create a training school for sowers. So we're taking non-qualified sowers and training them to use our equipment to be qualified sowers for the contracts that we're hoping for and that we're in the running for.

CO: How does it feel to have had a little company that was wanting to repurpose women's fashions and now you, with a little bit of help, a little bit of investment and people believing in you, you're able to create something that not only saves stuff from the landfill, but gives all these people work.

LB: Yeah, it's very satisfying. You know, almost all of our staff are newcomers. So we've been able to be very adaptive to employing people who don't have a lot of English. All of our signage is in English and Arabic because we have a lot of sowers that come from Syria, but we also have a lot of Rwandan staff and other newcomers who, you know, under normal circumstances wouldn't necessarily be able to be hired because their English is low. So we have this opportunity to create jobs for people who maybe otherwise face some barriers to that. So that feels really good too. And, you know, again, this project is really exciting for us because we do care about climate action and we want to participate in changing the way business contributes to the world, you know, rather than creating more, you know, waste and landfill -- we want to be part of the solution, not the problem.

CO: Lina, good work. And thanks for speaking with us.

LB: Okay thanks Carol.

CH: That was Lina Bowden, coordinator of the Life Cycle Project. We reached her in London, Ontario.

[Music: Hip-hop Music]

Saqib Shahab

CH: The man leading Saskatchewan's campaign against the COVID-19 pandemic says protests outside his home this weekend crossed a legal line. Dr. Saqib Shahab is Saskatchewan's chief medical health officer. On Saturday, a group of demonstrators with signs gathered in front of his house in Regina. They were protesting against the provincial government's public health orders. In a news conference with Premier Scott Moe, Dr. Shahab said he felt sorry for his family and his neighbours who had to deal with the harassment. He also said he wouldn't let the incident distract him from continuing his work.

SAQIB SHAHAB: Like the premier said, I think, you know, in a democracy, you expect vigorous debate over every policy. Right now we are in a pandemic, it's a long year and it's creating pressures on everyone. But even outside of pandemic and democracies, you debate vigorously anything and you express their opinions through many channels that are available in a democracy. And in my view, there is precedence that you cannot get outside any residence, and that is outside of any legal process. You can be in a public thoroughfare or in a public space, but not in front of a residence. And the other thing I'll make -- and this is not just reflected to me, but, you know, I think no one should be targeted because of race, religious beliefs, gender, sexual orientation. And I think successful countries, successful societies and inclusive and do well and societies that spiral into hate and division. And you can slice it as closely as you want -- when you want to find differences, you can go beyond race and find differences when no one else would notice a difference. And we've seen that in many parts of the world, Europe, Africa. So, again, you know, I think the response to this protest by the vast majority of the public was more eloquent than I can ever be. And it gives wind to myself, certainly. And that is what Saskatchewan is all about and what Canada is all about. But I think there's a small minority and I think unfortunately in social media, while it's great, the Internet is great, you know, to remain connected -- but the social media also creates its own toxic echo chambers, and it does unfortunately perpetuate hate and I would say radicalise those who are susceptible to hate.

CH: That was Saskatchewan's chief medical health officer, Dr. Saqib Shahab talking about the weekend protest outside his home at a news conference yesterday.

[Music: Synth Music]

Squirrels

CH: It is a well-known fact that squirrels are the most advanced species on this planet. If you listen to the show, you know, we should be grateful they put up with us and continue to let us pretend that we hold the power. All they ask is that we never design a squirrel proof bird feeder that works. It's a delicate arrangement, which is probably why the British government is getting creative with its latest attempt to control the UK's ballooning population of North American Gray squirrels. The invasive species is destroying woodlands and threatening native red squirrels. So the government just approved a proposal to put the rodents on birth control. A group called the UK Squirrel Accord, plans to lure gray squirrels into traps beaded with hazelnut spread and spiked with contraceptives. It might sound like a nutty idea, but Harry Pepper probably thinks it's long overdue. In 1992, the British Forestry Authority worker spoke with As It Happens about the gray squirrel problem.

HARRY PEPPER: Red squirrels have been very abundant, but now they are threatened and are in decline. And this is something of great concern.

ANN MEDINA: It sounds like an all-out war with the gray squirrels, which I'm hearing that they're the invaders, the competitors.

HARRY PEPPER: Well, to a certain extent, that's true. Gray squirrels were introduced into Britain about 100-120 years ago from North America. And they have been very successful. They've done very well in these sort of woodlands that we have, particularly in southern Britain, mixed broad-leaf and conifer woodlands.

ANN MEDINA: Are they just bigger than the red squirrel? Are they nastier? How come they seem to be winning this little war?

HARRY PEPPER: Well, they're certainly bigger. They are more aggressive, but they can utilise the large seed of oaks, the acorn and of the beechnut. And the gray squirrel can feed on these two seeds and store up fat in their bodies for the winter. Now, the red squirrel, our indigenous red squirrel, can't, in fact, digest acorn, so they can't utilise them as well. And they don't have this ability to store fat for the winter. The red squirrel has to rely on available food throughout the winter, whereas the gray squirrel, to a certain extent, can store fat to guard against lean times during the winter.

ANN MEDINA: He squirrels it a way, as they say.

HARRY PEPPER: That's right. Yes.

ANN MEDINA: What are you going to do or what can one do to save the red squirrel? Or are we watching a process where it'll soon be extinct?

HARRY PEPPER: Well, we hope not. Certainly in the north of England and Scotland, there are large areas of virtually pure conifer forests. And in these areas, the red squirrel has the edge over the gray because it is a smaller animal, it can survive on pure conifer seed.

CH: From 1992, As It Happens guest host, Ann Medina, speaking with Harry Pepper about protecting the UK's red squirrel population from the invasive North American gray squirrel.

January 27, 2021 Episode Transcript

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