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The AIH Transcript for August 26, 2020

Hosts: Helen Mann and Chris Howden

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello. I'm Helen Mann.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

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CH: Tonight:

HM: Unsafe as houses. An MP in Nunavut wants Ottawa to pay attention to the housing crisis in the territory where people are living in mold boxes and sleeping in beds that get frozen to the walls.

CH: Going it alone. A federal advisory panel that was supposed to oversee the end of solitary confinement has ended itself. And according to the panel's chair, it was powerless to do its work because the correctional service of Canada wouldn't cooperate.

HM: Too little, too late. An alleged militia member has been arrested after a fatal shooting in Kenosha, Wisconsin, last night. But a local organizer tells us he's afraid that won't stop the violence that's raging in his city.

CH: Waste not, want not, but want not waste. After Germany's top court upholds a law against dumpster diving, the lawyer for the two women who challenged it says the ruling is a load of rubbish.

HM: She was up against the walls. The late Elaine Roulet worked to keep incarcerated women and their families connected. A former inmate describes how the Catholic nun helped her and her daughter.

CH: And who hath let the dogs out. During this pandemic year, some evil medieval geniuses are remaking modern pop songs as tunes from the Middle Ages, complete with old fashioned instruments. As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Radio guesses it's better lute than never.

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Part 1: Nunavut MP on housing tour describes mould-infested homes and furniture freezing to walls

Nunavut MP tour

Guest: Mumilaaq Qaqqaq

CH: One woman had such a bad draft in her house that her bed would get frozen to the wall. And that's just one example of what Mumilaaq Qaqqaq says she heard recently at a home in Nunavut. Ms. Qaqqaq is an NDP MP who is wrapping up a week’s long housing tour of communities in the Territory. And she blames the Canadian government for the dire conditions that she has witnessed. Next week, she plans to head back to Ottawa with the stories she's collected. We reached Mumilaaq Qaqqaq in Rankin Inlet.

HM: Ms. Qaqqaq, why did you want to go on this tour?

MUMILAAQ QAQQAQ: I thought that it was really important that there was a specific focus. There are so many challenges and issues within the territory, and I don't think that we can start addressing things like violence, abuse, deaths, mental health, health -- I don't think that we can start addressing those things until there is adequate housing and people are not living in overcrowded homes and moldy homes. So I believe that we're talking about a basic human right. And we need to start from there. We need to start from the foundational aspects of human beings, and that includes housing.

HM: Unfortunately, the housing crisis, Nunavut is nothing new. There have been lots of reports in the past about how bad the situation is. What about the timing of this? Why do you want to highlight this now?

MQ: I think it's something that needs to be highlighted all the time. It's something I talk about all the time. I've been talking about it since I've been elected. It's just gotten more of a focus because I'm travelling into communities now. The approach that the federal government takes is not a good one. It never has been. Quite frankly, I don't care what governments, federal governments before have or have not done -- the point is, is that this has been an issue for 80 years, ever since the beginning of this. The entirety of the history of the relationship between Inuit and the federal government has never been good. We have never ever in that relationship been in adequate housing, livable costs or year round clean drinking water. Basic human rights is what I'm talking about. It's not by choice that Inuit went to residential school, had forced relocation, had their dogs slaughtered. The colonial history have been so impactful and it's still very much in your face. And the federal government does less than the bare minimum to address the concern.

HM: You say they have the wrong approach. What is it about the approach that's wrong?

MQ: That they have this notion that they think they know what's going on without ever actually seeing it. Often times we see decisions being made for Inuit that don't include actually Inuit voices in those discussions. The federal government loves to talk about reconciliation and inclusion and diversity, which is a bunch of -- I can't swear here [chuckles] or I shouldn't. But it's not true. It's simply not true. And it's simply the relation continues to be very very very poor between Inuit and the federal government. And that's on the federal government's part. They get invited continuously, over and over again, from all different kinds of leadership throughout the territory. Do we ever see them here? No. Just when it's election time, that's when we see them.

HM: You are, of course, from the area. But you are also, as you say, reaching out, visiting people, going into some of these homes. Can you share with us some of the examples of the kinds of things you're seeing in Nunavut communities?

MQ: Absolutely. I was in the Kitikmeot region. So Nunavut is split into three regions -- I was in the farther west region. I started there and then came to now in the middle regions. And I currently live on the eastern side of the territory. It's very very obvious that the Kitikmeot region is in dire need. I've been describing it as old boxes basically. Some homes before you even enter, you can smell the mold. I'm sitting in homes for 10-15 minutes and I can feel it. I'm starting to get sneezy. I'm starting to feel stuffy. Imagine people that are living in those situations. So I've been describing it as that. And, you know, we know that reports have been done, statistics, those numbers have been collected. What those reports do not show you though is the experiences of parents having children taken away from them because their home is deemed unfit and they have nowhere else to go, they have no other options so their children are taken to the foster care system. In my mind, that's a modern version of colonization -- taking our kids away from us because you're giving us homes that don't [inaudible] basic human rights. Reports don't capture the amount of mental illness and mental health that's needed in the territory. I meet elderly women who say I live with my son or my nephew -- or I live with a younger man who beats me, who abuses me, and I have nowhere else to go, there are no safe spaces in my communities. Reports don't capture things like that. Reports don't capture the experiences of a child finding another sibling who had just died by suicide and not knowing what to do in that moment -- and trashing the house. We don't see and we don't hear those kinds of impacts that have directly impacted Inuit lives. This is not just about housing. It's about all the inequity that ties with it.

HM: It was just over a year ago, Justin Trudeau visited Iqaluit -- confirming 290 million dollars over eight years for affordable housing. Given what you have seen, how far will that go?

MQ: Not far at all. It does not address any of the needs that we have right now. The amount of maintenance that is needed throughout the territory, the homes that already are totally mold infested, that need repairs -- it's not even enough to keep up with what is currently here. And we already know that housing is a dire need in Nunavut.

HM: What do you think people expect to view as their member of parliament and what you're going to do with this information? Do they think that you can fix this?

MQ: I think that the lack of awareness that we incorporate into our education system around politics is something that's a big flaw as well. People have this notion that I can come into a community and somehow get X amount of units built. And realistically, that's not the way it works. And I can do all this work and I can say all these things and I can show our realities -- but in reality, if the federal government is not willing to actually walk-the-walk and put their money where their mouth is, we're going to continue to see devastating deaths, devastating situations that concern health, mental illness increased. We're going to see things just get worse. And that's a really scary thought. I'm seeing third world conditions. I've seen it. And it's not just one or two or a few in a community, it is large. It's dozens of people everywhere. Hundreds -- it's thousands of people throughout the territory, you know. Trudeau is really good at saying pretty words, but I don't trust anything he says because we don't see any action. I hold my breath. I hope that we can see a change. But I definitely need some assistance to put pressure on the federal government because we've been crying out for a long time and nothing's changed. We need allies and we need support too.

HM: Ms. Qaqqaq thank you for speaking with us. We appreciate it.

MQ: Thank you. I appreciate your time.

CH: That was NDP MP Mumilaaq Qaqqaq in Rankin Inlet. To see some pictures from her tour, visit our website: cbc.ca/aih. We reached out to Employment and Social Development Canada for comment on this story, but we did not hear back before our deadline.

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Kenosha shooting

Guest: Terrance Warthen

CH: An Illinois teenager was arrested today after two people were killed and a third wounded in Kenosha, Wisconsin, last night. He's believed to have been among a group of armed vigilantes who were roaming the city. They claimed to be defending businesses from protesters after the police shooting of a 29 year old black man named Jacob Blake on Sunday. Mr. Blake remains in hospital today. His family says he's paralyzed from the waist down. Officials in Kenosha have instituted a 7 p.m. curfew. And Wisconsin Governor Tony Evers has called in hundreds of members of the National Guard. Terrance Warthen has been out on the streets of Kenosha, where he says he's hoping to prevent further violence. He's a Black member of the state board of Our Wisconsin Revolution, and of Kenosha County's Human Services Committee.

HM: Mr. Warthen, what are your thoughts on the arrest of this suspect today?

TERRANCE WARTHEN: Well, the arrest of the suspect in last night's shooting, my first thought is that it's still profoundly sad. It's a 17 year old that had no business being in this state, let alone in this city. We're in this situation and a result of mismanagement and failings at all levels people have died, people are injured, and this young person's life is forever altered.

HM: Kenosha County Sheriff David Beth was asked by reporters today about how police responded to the violence last night. And I want to play a short clip of that exchange for you.

REPORTER: [SOUNDCLIP: So he shoots people in the video. He opens fire and then he walks away and walks toward officers. He appears to have his hands up in the air wanting to turn himself in. But then he later flees. Whoever was there, officers, sheriffs -- why did they let him go? How was he able to go?

DAVID BETH: Well, I wasn't there. But just hearing what you just said, I have a pretty good idea. You've got to understand that at that point, there's screaming, there's hollering, there's chanting, there's a squad car running, there's MRAPs and BearCats idling. And I don't know where was I. I don't know. And if the officer happened to be in the car, the radio traffic was nonstop and there were people running all over the place. I can picture all kinds of reasons. I wasn't focusing on someone doing that.

REPORTER: Sheriff, you did not deputize them and you made that clear but there are videos of sheriff's deputies in those BearCats tossing waters out of the hatchback, encouraging their presence here. Why did that happen?

DAVID BETH: Our deputies would toss a water to anybody -- if someone came walking past, I don't care if they're a protester or who they are...

REPORTER: But if you encouraged that then why...

DAVID BETH: You're asking me to tell you what one person did, I can't tell you that.]

HM: Mr. Warthen, what is your reaction to the sheriff's responses to reporters today?

TW: Obviously, I mean, the same sheriff said that they're going to take into custody anyone that violates the curfew. And obviously the curfew didn't apply to everyone equally. If you were on the street and had a message they didn't agree with and you were subject to arrest or you're totally off the street. And you're encouraging a group of people who don't even live here to stand on the street with automatic rifles. Obviously, it's a double standard. It's not even debatable that there was encouragement and support. And the idea that, you know, I could have gone up to a sheriff's department vehicle during a riot and requested water and gotten a high five or a handshake, doesn't work at all. There was obviously some commiseration there. And again, these people don't live here. So you can't really use the excuse that they were there to protect someone's property. This wasn't a home. This was a gas station. None of this feels, in any way, random. And until otherwise as proven, the public's going to feel like that's the way it is.

HM: So you say this is not random. What do you think is drawing these heavily armed men to your city during these protests?

TW: The opportunity to do it. The recruitment online. I mean, you have these people, unfortunately, that exist anyway. And when given the opportunity, this is what they want to act out. You have some people that like to buy this gear and play soldier. And when the police pat them on the back, they assume a level of authority that they don't actually have.

HM: Do you think things will be any different now that this young man has been arrested?

TW: No, no. I mean, there's nothing that his arrest is going to change. He wasn't really a member of this community. He lived in Antioch, Illinois.

HM: What about the presence of the National Guard? We are told hundreds of members are pouring into your city as we speak. What effect might that have?

TW: We'll have to see how they're deployed. They've been here. We've had a National Guard here for two or three days now. They haven't been present. They haven't really prevented much of anything. And I think the decision needs to be made as far as how they're going to protect the city and how they're going to use all of these resources. Because, you know, if you have a disjointed effort with a thousand people and you add a few thousand more to the mix or a few hundred more police officers to the mix, it doesn't magically solve your problems. So what people aren't getting is an idea of what exactly the National Guard's going to do. So as you asked me right now, I have no idea the National Guard is going to do when they get here.

HM: You describe some people angry, some sounding bewildered, some scared, fearful about the property as well. What is your sense of how people in Kenosha are feeling right now and how they're coping with all of this?

TW: I think a lot of people are shell shocked. The first night, Sunday night, immediately after the shooting, people were surprised. Not everyone was paying attention to news. The next night was worse. We had hundreds, if not thousands of people who came to this city not to support the family, not to support this city, not to support our communities, but just to do as much damage as they could. And they seemed unable to be stopped or dealt with. But I have to say, for the most part, when the sun came up, the majority of this community had gone on about their lives or volunteer and went right to work cleaning up. But for so many people in this city, life will never be the same. We have entire neighbourhoods that have been destroyed. Two people that are gone. You know, a victim of a police shooting that is in, at the very least, looking ahead towards a life as a para or quadriplegic -- the trauma to his family.

HM: You've been out in the streets trying to prevent further violence. Will you be back in the streets tonight and tomorrow?

TW: I will be out in whatever capacity. I can't be able to just change the curfew here, which changed plans for some folks. I'll be out trying to encourage peaceful protest, productive dialogue, accountability, communication, and for people to remain as active as they possibly can -- not just for today or tomorrow or next week for the rest of their lives.

HM: Mr. Warthen I'm sorry your city and its communities are having to deal with all of this. Thank you very much for speaking with us.

TW: Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time and giving me the opportunity to speak to your listeners.

HM: Okay. You take care. Bye bye.

TW: Bye bye. Thank you.

CH: Terrence Warthen is a member of Our Wisconsin Revolution, and of Kenosha County's Human Services Committee. We reached him in Kenosha, Wisconsin. For more on this story, visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Elaine Roulet obit

Guest: Monique Carter

CH: The idea that children belong with their parents isn't exactly novel. But for millions of people in Canada and the U.S., there's one often insurmountable barrier keeping them apart: prison walls. Elaine Roulet spent her life working to dismantle that barrier. The Roman Catholic nun was tirelessly devoted to helping incarcerated women connect with their children, particularly at Bedford Hills Correctional Facility in New York State. Elaine Roulet died this month of heart failure. She was 89 years old. Monique Carter was once incarcerated at Bedford Hills. Today, she's a community health advocate at Mount Sinai St. Luke's Hospital and a board member at the Fortune Society, which supports formerly incarcerated people. We reached Monique Carter in New York City.

HM: Ms. Carter, first of all, can I just say I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.

MONIQUE CARTER: Thank you so much.

HM: Can you tell us how you first met Sister Elaine?

MC: I meet Sister Elaine when I got to Bedford Hills. I met her through the children's centre because I went away for defending my daughter and myself. You know, she would always say hi to me and we would have short talks. However, she made a change in my life, really touched my life, is when my mother passed. May she rest in peace. And Sister Elaine made sure that I was part of every conversation with my siblings. I was part of all of the arrangements because of her. She made sure that I made it to the funeral as well.

HM: Can you tell me a little bit about the relationship that she developed with you and with others who were inmates at the time? How were those conversations? What was the feeling of that relationship?

MC: The feeling was that you were human. She treated you with kindness. She didn't, you know, hold against you that you were there or the fact that you weren't there. You know, your colour of your skin didn't matter. It just didn't matter to Sister Elaine. She just would help you. She helped me, you know, with the children's centre. You know, I was in Bedford Hills because I wasn't eligible -- like, if you had a baby when you were incarcerated or if you came in pregnant, you can go into this unit where you could keep your baby with you for a year and you could bond with your baby after the year you had to send the baby home. And that was amazing. You know, some women -- they were shackled when they were given birth. She advocated to change that.

HM: And she wanted to make sure that women who were in prison could see their children who were living outside. How did she bring mothers and their children together in that prison environment?

MC: I was able to go down to the children's centre pick out books and read the books and make recordings for my daughter. I was able to go down there and make telephone calls. On the visits there was the children's centre where the children had toys and you could bond with your children on a visit. And she made sure there was all the toys for the children. And during Christmas time or for a child's birthday, there were always gifts. I mean coming back into society and the forces going away, it was the equivalent of going into the Toys R US. These were brand new toys. I'm not talking about people's gently used. These are brand new toys. Because of her, you know, people were donating and companies were donating these toys.

HM: She sounds like she was very compelling, that she was able to get people to do what she wanted.

MC: Yes, yes, yes. And she could bring people together.

HM: What was it about her that did that?

MC: Her spirit, her smile. Her smile. I use to always want to pinch her cheeks. [Chuckles] Yeah. Her smile would light up a room. You know, when I first got my first apartment, I needed some things and I made it be known that I needed some dishes and Sister Elaine and one of the other people that worked with her came by and brought me dishes, cups and everything, and they were gold-plated. I could even use them in the microwave, you know. On the same visit, you know, I needed a bed for my daughter -- I had just bought a California Queen for me and my daughter -- my daughter and I were sleeping in the same bed. And I was told a couple of days later to come by and pick up a cheque to get the bed for my daughter.

HM: So she took care of you for years afterwards even.

MC: Absolutely. Absolutely. And then when I came home into society, she had what's called 'our journey' down at St. Francis College in downtown Brooklyn. And we met there once a week. And it was very important to her that, you know, there was breakfast, a continental breakfast with danishes, donuts, with hot coffee and tea. You know, we networked and she started giving out gift cards for shoes. You would go to Macy's and you get a new pair shoes because she understood that you had to have a decent pair of shoes to look for a job and all the challenges you've got to face trying to get me acclimated with society.

HM: Now, I understand that Sister Elaine actually arranged for your daughter to visit you when you were in prison. I'm wondering what effect all of that has had on the relationship you have with your daughter now.

MC: It definitely, you know, helped us to maintain a relationship. Every day my daughter was provided car service from Brooklyn, New York, to come up to the prison, which was in Westchester. There were activities, you know, gifts for the children. So that helped us to maintain our relationship, you know, because it's difficult parenting from a distance. It really is.

HM: What do you think drove Sister Elaine to do this kind of work and to be so passionate about it?

MC: God. She was heaven sent. If there were more Sister Elaines in the world today, we wouldn't be where we are today.

HM: How did your interactions with her inform the kind of work that you do now?

MC: Like, giving them back. You know, my supervisor asked me "Monique, how do you do so many patients?" Just like Sister Elaine, I don't look down on my nose at people. I don't speak to people in a condescending manner. I meet my patients where they are. And they by the grace of God go on. Because she was able to look past my differences, so I'm able to do that for my patients. You know, you can't judge people. Who am I to judge?

HM: Well Ms. Carter, again, I'm very sorry for your loss. She sounds like she was a very special person and I'm glad you're able to talk to us about her.

MC: Thank you for having me.

CH: Monique Carter is a community health advocate at Mount Sinai St. Luke's Hospital in New York City. Her friend, Elaine Roulet, who helped incarcerated women and their children, died August 13th. She was 89.

[Music]

Part 2: German dumpster divers fail to get case thrown out in Supreme Court

CSC solitary committee

Guest: Anthony Doob

CH: An advisory panel tasked with overseeing the end of solitary confinement in federal prisons is wrapping up. The trouble is it didn't accomplish what it was assembled to accomplish. The panel was created last year after Ottawa passed a law that banned the use of solitary confinement and established a new form of prisoner isolation called structured intervention units. But according to the panel, attempts to monitor the new system and get access to relevant data have been blocked by the Correctional Service of Canada. Anthony Doob is a criminology professor at the University of Toronto and the chair of the Structured Intervention Unit Implementation Advisory Panel. We reached him in Toronto.

HM: Professor Doob, when you took on the task of chairing this panel last year, did you imagine that you would be wrapping up your term without being able to access the data you needed to do your job?

ANTHONY DOOB: No, I assumed that when they set up the committee, they knew that the committee would try to do its work and part of doing its work is getting adequate information.

HM: Why weren't you able to get that information?

AD: The simple answer to your question is that all of the data we needed were in the hands of Correctional Service of Canada. And they were setting up a new system and we assumed that we would be able to get the information in a timely way in order to be able to give them advice about the implementation of this new regime. And for reasons that are best known to them, we weren't able to do that. They never gave us the data that we requested.

HM: So let me clarify when you're talking about this new system, because the panel's work stems from a law that bans solitary confinement, replacing it with something called a structured intervention unit. Maybe you describe how that system is different.

AD: Well, the idea of this is that there'd be more time out of cell, that there'd be more restrictions on the ways in which a person's life is constrained by this, that there'd be a certain number of hours of meaningful human contact rather than just putting a person in a cell and locking them up.

HM: So this was the kind of information, the data you were looking for?

AD: Well, we were looking for all sorts of things. We were looking for who is going in, what institutions they were coming from, how long they spent in the structured intervention unit cells, how many hours a day they were getting out of the cell. All those kinds of things, really. We were trying to get an overall picture as to what was actually going on. They wouldn't tell us.

HM: So they wouldn't tell you. But what was the back and forth? What happened?

AD: Well, the back and forth was actually quite simple. We made a request before the things actually opened. They opened at the end of November 2019. We made a request in the middle of November and said, here's what we want and we want these data delivered to us by the end of February. We were never given any indication whatsoever that they wouldn't do it. And only in February they said, oh, we're not sure we're going to give you these individual data. That was the first time I ever heard a thing about it. And then when we wrote to the minister at the end of March, we copy Correctional Service of Canada on it. And we got a reply from them saying, oh, let's talk. And then they question why we needed the data. So this was the end of April, the 29th of April. They say, why do you need the data? And we had asked initially in November. And to their credit, they listened, I guess. And at the end of May they gave us 905 separate Excel files and said have a good time with it.

HM: So is the material they gave you of any use to you?

AD: Well, there were problems like varying numbers of cases for varying amounts of information. Some data were missing that clearly should have been available, like what institution the person came from. I spoke to CSC immediately and, again, to their credit, what they did is they said, okay this was obviously not what you asked for. And they assigned what from my perspective, was an absolutely fabulous data person to work with me on getting the data. I had a number of conversations on the phone with this person who'd been assigned to it, and she was very very good. And then there's silence I don't know why. And then when we inquire about things, we get a letter back from the acting commissioner, which, quite frankly, makes no sense. It's a brand new explanation for why they can't get us any data whatsoever.

HM: Well, what did correctional services say was the problem? Why were they not able to provide you information?

AD: They blame it on two things, an antiquated information system that they have and a brand new information system that isn't working well. Now, quite frankly, both of those are possible. But we were not asking for complex, difficult data to get. These were very simple administrative data.

HM: So should Correctional Services of Canada have this data for its own use anyway?

AD: They absolutely needed it for their own use because they should be wanting to know how these things are working. I mean, certainly you'd want to know things like how long people are staying in these units, because that's one of the concerns that people have had from the very beginning. So we weren't asking for things that they shouldn't know. If they couldn't get us those data, that means they're in really deep problems because it means they're not getting it for their own purposes. They're telling me, in effect, that they don't know systematically what is happening in their structure of intervention units in their own institutions. That's pretty extraordinary.

HM: A spokesperson for the Public Safety Minister, Bill Blair, says that the new system, the structured intervention unit system, focuses on mental health care and it's subject to independent external oversight. And his office says they're looking into your concerns and they're working with correctional services to get the panel the necessary information. How confident are you that with the minister involved, things might change?

AD: Well, the minister being involved is certainly better than the minister not being involved. I'm not confident that Correctional Service of Canada will cooperate with anybody. If Correctional Service of Canada won't give it to a panel that's set up by the ministry, by the minister himself, why they should cooperate with anybody? They get away with not cooperating.

HM: Do you think they won't cooperate with the minister's office?

AD: We'll see.

HM: In the meantime, you know, what does this mean for all these inmates who are being locked up alone for hours on end? And it's something we're told has been happening even more for health concerns during the pandemic.

AD: In a systematic way, there's nobody looking at what's going on in these SIUs -- I mean, nobody. Correctional Service of Canada, if you believe one thing, everything is fine -- if you believe another thing, they don't even know what's going on. So if you know somebody who's in one of these units, good luck. You don't know what's going on. If you find out that there's a problem, you don't know whether this is a one off problem or it's happening to a small number of people or it's happening to large numbers of people. Because Correctional Services of Canada has made it impossible for anybody to know that. And worse, they're telling us all that it's impossible even for them to answer that question.

HM: Wow, it's quite a story. Thank you very much, Professor Doob. I appreciate you sharing your concerns with us.

AD: No problem.

CH: Anthony Doob is a criminology professor at the University of Toronto and the chair of the Structured Intervention Unit Implementation Advisory Panel. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music]

Cal Misener

CH: Crocs, the plastic half shoe, half sandal, some consider to be grotesque, unholy parodies of footwear -- get very bad press. But one B.C. man would like to see them get a little more love. One recent night, a summer storm brought enough thunder, lightning, and torrential rain to wake Cal Misener, who lives on Bowen Island. So he headed up to close up his truck's electric windows, at which point he joined an extremely exclusive club no one wants to be part of: people who've been struck by lightning. But this is crucial to the story -- before stepping outside, he slipped on a pair of crocs. Cal Misener spoke with Stephen Quinn on the CBC's Early Edition about what happened next.

CAL MISENER: I open the door and I was standing with my right foot on the running board of the driver's side of the truck, and my left foot was on the ground. And I turned the key to engage the electric windows. And just as I did so, there was this huge flash and bang. And the entire road underneath my truck turned orange. I had a camper on the back of the truck. So I was standing under the overhang of the fiberglass camper. And I think what happened is the lightning either hit the truck itself or energized the entire road in front of our house. I'm not sure which. But when I looked down, I could see the undercarriage and the road underneath my truck was this bright and brilliant orange. And just this deafening thunder crack. And I believe what happened is the lightning went up one leg, my right leg, and out my left leg. And it blew my crocs off my feet. The one croc blew about 12 feet across the road and the right one kind of dropped underneath the truck. But what I felt at the time, I felt actually like both of my legs had been broken. Just this intense pain and it basically buckled me in and threw me to the ground and I could actually smell something burning. So I thought, oh, I hope that's not my skin burning. But it was just this intense pain. And I do believe that in some regard, the crocs provided that little bit of insulation enough so that, you know, there wasn't burning of the flesh, etc.. So do I know if they saved my life? I don't know for sure, Stephen, but I sure feel fortunate that I had them on. And they certainly aren't high on people's fashion list, but I have a newfound respect for crocs, I'll tell you that.

CH: Cal Misener speaking with Stephen Quinn, host of CBC Vancouver's Early Edition. Mr. Misener was hit by lightning during a recent storm, and he believes his unfashionable crocs may have been a major advantage.

[Music]

Germany dumpster diving

Guest: Max Malkus

CH: It's a garbage ruling about a garbage situation. This month, a German court upheld its decision in a case involving two women who were fined for taking food from a grocery store waste bin in 2018. The dumpster diving pair, who are not named, decided to challenge the constitutionality of the ruling. This week, the German Supreme Court ruled against them. Max Malkus is the lawyer for the women. We reached him in Leipzig, Germany.

HM: Mr. Malkus, what do your clients think of this decision?

MAX MALKUS: Of course, they're disappointed, but they wanted to have some more impact for the protection of future generations and the protection of resources. And in the end, they're just getting the call for the lawmaker that he can change things, but he didn't do it right now.

HM: Right. So the point is that they didn't want to make the decision, the court. They said it was up to the lawmakers to change the law.

MM: Yes. Sometimes and we hope that also in our case that the Supreme Court would use the chance for having a political rule. But they just passed the ball to lawmakers in this case.

HM: Now, can you take us back to the day in 2018 when your clients were dumpster diving and what happened?

MM: That was an evening in the small town of Olching, which is close to Munich in Bavaria in Germany. And they're just going through the trash. And they put out some groceries, I think a few kilograms of yogurt and also vegetables, tomatoes, apples. And they get caught or snagged by the police. And from this moment on, they were in our law system, committed a crime. They are accused from this moment on.

HM: And they were charged fines to, right?

MM: We started with the officer of justice from the Court of Munich -- wanted to have a fine of 1,800 euros per person for grabbing in the trash. We go to court with it because they didn't want to pay this fine. And in court, they ruled they didn't have to pay this fine if they go for eight hours of social work, but they had to work for a local food bank, which is quite an ironic judgment when you put it this way.

HM: Community service, we would call it. They got sentenced to community service in a food bank.

MM: Yes. Community service in food bank. And also in this case, we didn't want to take the judgment because we were arguing that if you're doing dumpster diving, you're not taking value from someone. So it couldn't be theft. We argued that it's actually somehow the goal of our government to protect resources. And it was even a goal in our Constitution. Also, we say that somehow to [inaudible] the laws are not there for judging these small crimes with all the things they do. So they bring it up to the highest court.

HM: Why did your clients take that food from the dumpster?

MM: Well, there's several intentions. One is, is that they are students and by nature, they don't have that money in this moment. But on the other hand, they really strongly believe that it's not okay to waste food that much. That's the point of dumpster diving. It's quite easy to do something for environment by small steps.

HM: Why is it illegal to dumpster dove in Germany?

MM: In the end, it's a theft. The highest court said or the Supreme Court said we don't count the value, not for the individual, not for the community. It's just about the property and the property is something which is a constitutional right in Germany -- even the bananas and the yogurts and the apples, you've throw in the trash because it's your property it's theft when somebody else takes it from it.

HM: And what was your constitutional argument?

MM: Our argument was that we have, of course, our Constitution gives property, but in the second sense of it is, the property is there also for the community. So it should have some value for community. And in the moment when you put food into the trash bin, you openly show that you don't want to be attached to the food anymore. And from this moment on, I think food should be if it's still consumable, it should be there for people who are wanting to consume it as food what it was made for. So our argument was that it's as a natural resource -- it should be there for everyone from the moment the former owner doesn't want to use it as food anymore. And they said no till the end -- the owner can decide what is his property.

HM: So the court, as you say, has passed the ball to the politicians, but they have had the opportunity in the past to address this and they've chosen not to. Why do you think there isn't political will to change the law?

MM: Lawmakers don't focus on waste at all. I think reducing of waste, reducing of food waste is a really efficient way to fight against climate change. But nobody likes to look on this agenda. And containers is maybe a too small topic for big politics to address it somehow.

HM: Do you have any idea how much food ends up in dumpsters in Germany?

MM: We have said that we have 18-million tons of groceries each year. So it's a big question of how you count. Do you also count by the farmers on the transport? So I calculate round about 21-million tons of food which is still edible, gets wasted.

HM: And not all the food that ends up in dumpsters is actually consumable. A lot of it would be rotten. And we know that dumpster is also contained in-organic material: broken glass, things like that. Did the ruling address any safety concerns?

MM: No, they didn't figure it out how it is in the end. And you can argue in this way that also when you go to the dumpster, it's your own risk. And from this moment on, you can't take the supermarket accountable for it. Yeah. And, of course, people shouldn't go to the dumpsters. I mean, we don't want to legalize people (going) to dumpsters -- we want to have the food by the people. And we have to organize this as a society. This is the highest goal where we want to go.

HM: Mr. Malkus thank you very much for talking with us.

MM: Thank you so much.

CH: Max Malkus is a German lawyer. This month, two of his clients lost a constitutional challenge after being charged with theft for dumpster diving. We reached Mr. Malkus in Leipzig, Germany. And you can find more on this story on the As it Happens website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Sean Brown

CH: Sean Brown was fast asleep in his century old Saskatoon home earlier this month when he was shocked awake by a loud sound. The front porch was in flames. He was living on the main floor with his 16 year old son, Kyden, along with tenants in two other units upstairs in the home. He told his story to CBC Radio in Saskatoon.

SEAN BROWN: I was asleep. It was early in the morning. I had to let the dog out onto the porch because my son came home. He was on the porch. And I heard -- it was kind of like hail. There was a storm that night, so I thought it was just the storm. And I kind of fell back to sleep again. And I was sleeping in the living room right at the front of the house. And then I heard a big pop and all these flames just shot into the living room. And I just woke up startled right in the middle of the fire kind of thing. And I instantly was worried about my son and the dog who were out on the porch. So I 'ran out to try to get into the front and I couldn't get the door open because there was so much flames. And I ended up smashing the window because it was a glass door. And that's when more smoke and more flames came into the house. And so I ran upstairs and was screaming, "Fire, fire, fire." And at this time, there was so much smoke in the hallway I couldn't see or anything. So I just kind of held my breath and closed my eyes and ran all the way back downstairs through the smoke. And there was nobody in there. So I ran outside and the whole entire front of the house was just engulfed in flames at this point. Two people from the top floor, they got to the main level and they escaped out of the bathroom window. AJ is the guy who passed away. He went back upstairs for his cat [chokes up] and he never came back down. We were all outside that, just all the screams -- it was just horrifying. I was in my underwear, and that's all I left with was just my underwear and bare feet. We went back to the house last week. I went to the landlord on Friday to see if we could salvage anything. I have, like, my dad's lighter. It's took a sentimental lighter that he gave to me. And I went to look for that. And I found it really badly burnt, luckily. So I still have it. But I couldn't salvage anything. There's absolutely nothing in that house to salvage. Everything's gone.

CH: That was Sean Brown on CBC Radio in Saskatoon. 25 year old Alexander Jacobs, also known as AJ, died in the blaze trying to save his beloved cat, Scarface, who he considered his child. Mr. Brown says that although they came from different worlds, the roommates at 516 Albert Avenue became a little family on and the loss of Mr. Jacobs is like losing a relative. Now the community is fundraising to help cover funeral costs and support the surviving residents, including Mr. Brown and his son, who are now homeless. According to the Saskatoon Fire Department, the cause of the fire remains undetermined.

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August 26, 2020 Episode Transcript

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