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The AIH Transcript for April 22, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Health goals. Prince Edward Island's premier tells us he is confident his province will be the first to emerge from its COVID-19 restrictions, and that's sooner than you might think.

CH: Table four none. Chef and restaurateur in the state of Georgia has some serious reservations about the governor's plan to reopen restaurants. He tells us that's not an order he plans to take.

CO: He was told the meat plan was safe, now an Alberta union leader wants an investigation into decisions that allowed COVID-19, to kill one woman and infect hundreds of others.

CH: Alone together. Physical distancing has been a breeze for one Newfoundland and Labrador couple. They've been living in complete isolation ever since their entire community was resettled last year.

CO: In it for the long howl. The As It Happens, archives echoing with the voices of two dogs from our past, each of whom seem to believe, despite the evidence that when it came to singing, they were nothing short of Andrea Poo-celli.

CH: In it for the wrong haul. With the Boston Marathon cancelled, one nurse decided to run 42 kilometres with a twist. She plotted a route that would spell out the words "Boston Strong." There was just one little trip-up: a missing "N." As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Radio that appreciates a reminder that life is a maratho, not a sprit.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: 'Oh no, I spelled it wrong': Nurse runs solo marathon in shape of 'Boston Strog'

COVID Restrictions: PEI

Guest: Dennis King

CH: Prince Edward Islanders have themselves a date, but it's hard to say how many of them will show up for it. The province has avoided the worst of the pandemic so far. And now Dennis King, the premier, says P.E.I. is ready to lead Canada out of its coronavirus lockdown. He's announced the restrictions will begin to lift on the 1st of May. We reached Premier Dennis King in Charlottetown.

CO: Premier King, as you prepare to lift this lockdown, are you saying a lot and prayers with your fingers crossed?

DENNIS KING: I am very cautious. We are really really grateful that we're in the position that we are in and we are able to look toward early May to do some ease back. But, you know, it is a cautious approach. And we do know that this virus can strike and run through a community and a province quickly. So we are careful and cautious, but optimistic.

CO: Okay. So I'm sure you're doing this not just based on a hope and a prayer. What do you know about the conditions allows you to do this?

DK: Well, to date, from our first case in early March, we've had only 26 cases here. 26 positive cases. All have been travel related. None have been community spread. We've had no incubation -- and thankfully, no deaths. So we've been very fortunate, but we've also acted quickly. We put measures in place quickly. We've learned from other jurisdictions as the virus moved from west to east and we learned a lot and we put that practice in the place. And of course, Carol, as you know, Prince Edward Island is an island province, and we use that to our advantage quickly. And we feel it's paid off.

CO: How much access have outsiders had to your province?

DK: It's been limited for quite a while. We've been essentially essential traffic only for close to a month now. We've had screening at our borders, The Confederation Bridge. The ferry to Nova Scotia is not running right now, as you know. And we have very limited traffic at the airport right now. So I'd say on a regular basis we'd probably be at about 5 percent of traffic at the Confederation Bridge on a daily basis right now.

CO: You're opening this in stages. So what's first?

DK: First things that we want to get going is to get some people moving around a little bit following the physical distancing that we need to do and just getting some people out of their homes and to shake the cobwebs off a bit. We're also opening up, hopefully, if we stay on this trajectory, some of the elective surgeries and minor procedures at our hospitals that we haven't been able to do because we've been so fixated and focused on our response to COVID-19.

CO: And when do you open up and say services, restaurants, that sort of thing?

DK: So we will begin, if all things continue, May 1st, with our first phase. And we will then sort of be doing things on two week intervals after that. We need to allow some time to see what the loosening of measures looks like. So hopefully if we continue to see positive action on May 15th, I think you could hopefully see some restaurants and some further retail opening and those types of things. But a lot of this is dependent upon us staying on this trajectory and learning, as Dr. Heather Morrison has said in P.E.I. most days, learning to live with COVID-19.

CO: But as you know, this is a very tricky virus. As we're hearing in China, they're concerned about a second wave. Other places, just when they think they've got it under control, there's a spike. How quickly can you respond if you find that you've been premature?

DK: Well, I think what we are putting in place is making sure that we have that ability almost as an elastic where we can pull it back quickly. And that's why we are very cautious in our approach. We will continue our containment measures at the bridge in our screening. We will continue to monitor very closely our long term care and our community care and those most vulnerable. And we have to be very very vigilant as Islander's to continue to follow the health directives of our public health office. We do know it can happen very very quickly. And as we've seen in other jurisdictions, if something were to happen in one of our long term care facilities, that really changes the face of COVID in a province and how the province needs to react.

CO: I would imagine it's relatively -- well it's easier than most jurisdictions when you are an island and you do have a small population. I don't need to tell you, though, that you have an enormous tourism industry, more than a million visitors every year, and tens of thousands of Japanese tourists want to come and see Anne of Green Gables. So what are you going to do about that?

DK: Well, that is the real difficulty in two parts for us as Prince Edward Islanders. It's very very against everything we stand for to not be welcoming and open. You know, having that bridge open to get Islanders or welcome Islanders as we do. That's difficult. The economic part of this is also huge. The impacts will be felt long beyond COVID -- as you talk about a million and a half visitors a year coming to P.E.I. it would be hard to imagine 10 percent of that could happen this year. So the impacts are challenging. But look, we're resilient here. We realize we're in a good place. When you look at Quebec in Ontario and other provinces, we're in a much better situation than they are. So we count our blessings for that. But we know there's challenges here and we have to take them you know, one at a time as they come and to try to work our way through this.

CO: A lot of those people from those other provinces as you know they have summer homes in Prince Edward Island. They want to go head down there soon. What are you going to do about that?

DK: Well, we're hoping that we can continue to welcome those Islanders by choice who come here each summer and loved the opportunity to be here. We would foresee that you would need to self isolate when you get here. It's usually around what we call here, the May run weekend, that third week of May when that starts to really pick up. We hope we're in a better position at that time to be more welcoming. But it does go without saying, Carol, that we will have to be very very stringent on our points of entry for the immediate future and want to be as open as we can and as careful as we can while trying to contain and mitigate a very stubborn virus.

CO: I don't need to tell you that the country is watching to see how it turns out in Prince Edward Island and hoping that others can follow soon. So we'll be watching. It's good to talk to you premier. Thank you.

DK: Really really appreciate the opportunity beyond. So everyone be safe.

CH: Dennis King is the Premier of Prince Edward Island. We reached him in Charlottetown.

[Music]

Chris Leather

CH: There are many unanswered questions about the string of shootings and arsons that took place in Nova Scotia. Chief among them is why the killer did what he did and how he did it. The RCMP is investigating more than a dozen crime scenes to try to find answers. But as you heard on the show last night, many Nova Scotians are also wondering why the police force didn't send out an emergency alert to cell phones, a warning that might have saved lives. Today, Nova Scotia RCMP Chief Superintendent Chris Leather gave more details about how the police operation unfolded. He said that officers only learned that the attacker was wearing a fake RCMP uniform and driving a replica RCMP vehicle early on Sunday morning. And this is what he said about why an emergency alert was not issued.

[sc]

CHRIS LEATHER: Our critical incident command staff were processing fast changing information related to what was unfolding in front of them and what they were being told of. We responded to a possible shooting at 10:26 p.m. on Saturday evening. It was determined to be a homicide. And we immediately started searching the area and advising residents to stay inside. We used Twitter to alert residents of a firearms complaint in the Portapique area and to stay in. As we searched the area, we discovered additional victims and several structure fires. We established a perimeter and our search continued into the evening and early morning hours on Sunday. In response to new information indicating that the suspect was not in the secure perimeter at 8:02 a.m. on Sunday, the RCMP began providing real time information on its Nova Scotia RCMP Twitter account. Twitter allowed our information to be shared, followed, and broadcast by local, provincial and national news outlets. At 10:15 a.m., Nova Scotia Provincial Emergency Management officials contacted the RCMP to offer the use of the public emergency alerting system. We were in the process of preparing an alert when the gunman was shot and killed by the RCMP.

[/sc]

CH: That was Nova Scotia RCMP Chief Superintendent Chris Leather speaking to reporters earlier today in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia.

[Music]

High River COVID Outbreak

Guest: Thomas Hesse

CH: Alberta's Chief Medical Officer of Health says she's treating the outbreak around the Cargill meat plant in High River as an opportunity to learn how to stop COVID-19 somewhere else. But for Thomas Hesse, that lesson has cost one of his members her life. Mr. Hesse is the President of the United Food and Commercial Workers Union Local 401. He represents roughly 2000 workers at the now shuttered plant. Hundreds have tested positive. One is in a medically induced coma. And on Sunday, a worker in her 60s died after contracting the disease. We reached Thomas Hesse in Calgary.

CO: Mr. Hesse, what is the latest you can tell us about the health of your members at that plant?

THOMAS HESSE: Well, it's a sad and devastating story. 85 percent of our members, firstly, are telling us that they're afraid to go to work. A full 75 percent are telling us that they have no faith in their employer or indeed in government to do all that all that needs to be done to keep them safe. We're hearing about over 400 diagnoses at the Cargill plant, and growing at the JBS plant. We have one of our members, who very sadly, has passed away from COVID-19.

CO: What were the working conditions that may have contributed -- that it spread so dramatically? Describe what was going on inside those plants.

TH: It's hard to assess as both Cargill and JBS started to restrict any visitors as this situation escalated. But I would start by saying that these plants are inherently unsafe. Human Rights Watch has done a report. The work is shoulder to shoulder, elbow to elbow, wielding knives, very very quick production. It's loud, it's wet, it's dangerous. And the plants are constructed around the notion of social proximity, not social distancing. They're all about efficiencies. You have crowded hallways, crowded lunchrooms, crowded washrooms, crowded locker rooms and a crowded production floor. So there is an opportunity for these places to become petri dishes when it comes to COVID-19. And then we heard anecdote after anecdote from worker after worker about insufficient or faulty personal protection equipment. The numbers started to grow. And on Easter Sunday, we asked all three of the large food processing meat processing plants in Alberta to close, to send workers home for 14 days to self isolate it.

CO: I just want to ask you about what the Alberta Federation of Labour is calling for, and that's for actually a criminal investigation since this woman has died and others are so sick. This is something that would be under something called the Westray Act. What can you tell us about that possibility, if that is a possibility?

TH: Well, we share the Alberta Federation of Labour's point of view. Every Canadian is familiar with the concept of negligence. So when you're aware of a risk, when you know about it, you have an obligation to take care of people. Employers have a duty to ensure the health and safety of their workers. And both the provincial government and the employer, they've let these people down. They knew that there was a growing issue. They knew about the risks and they should have acted. And it's criminal. It's negligent.

CO: Now, there were inspections, though, weren't they? I mean the authorities, the correct authorities were monitoring the plant. Was that not successful?

TH: Alberta health services officials told us that there was an inspection done the Friday before the Monday, the day that the plant closed at Cargill. And they told us that the inspection was done through Facetime on an iPhone.

CO: Wait a second. This is a plant that has a 2000 people employed over a vast area of operations. So it was done with an iPhone?

TH: You're exactly right, Carol. The methodology is deeply disturbing. And, of course, you've got to wonder when someone who's responsible for health and safety, themselves, doesn't want to set foot in the plant -- what does that tell you about whether the plant is safe or not?

CO: That bill of good health or that it was okay to continue working, that's now no longer the case. What are the authorities now saying about the conditions in that plant?

TH: This is unclear to us. Everyone seems to be passing the puck back and forth. And someone really needs to step in. You know, COVID has torn the roof off of the way we traditionally do things. There is a debate now happening about whether or not this is the provincial government's jurisdiction, whether it's the employer's responsibility. Well the employer has let the workers down, the provincial government has let the workers down. You know, we would call on the federal government to establish some kind of independent review. Now traditional thinking would say, well, the federal government's jurisdiction is food safety, not employee health and safety. But I don't think that a single Canadian wants to eat a hamburger that might be associated with a worker having COVID or the death of a worker from COVID.

CO: And finally, another issue is food security, isn't it? And we're being told that there are real issues with trying to get food to people from all kinds -- not just meat, poultry. It's also other agricultural products. And so there is that concern. So how do you balance the interests of trying to get food produced -- and this plant produces a vast amount of the meat that goes into our supermarkets -- how do you balance those interests with the protection of workers?

TH: Yeah, it sure does. And to be clear, you know, we have no argument with the agriculture industry. I mean, our members proudly bring food to the tables of Albertans. They feel that there's nobility in their work. They want to go to work. So we have two huge plants, multinational, multi-billion dollar corporations who are not Canadian, who are not rooted in our communities. And the ranchers want these plants to operate safely. They don't want people to have to die. And so government has to step in and make sure the plants operate safely so food can get to the tables of Canadians. This is what needs to happen. And our union members and workers have no interest in shutting down the industry in any way, shape, or form. They want to go to work.

CO: Mr. Hesse, we will leave it there. We'll be following this story. And I appreciate speaking with you tonight. Thank you.

TH: My pleasure. Thanks for your time.

CH: Thomas Hesse is the president of the United Food and Commercial Workers Union Local 401. We reached him in Calgary.

[Music]

Boston Strog Runner

Guest: Lindsay Devers

CH: This was supposed to be a very busy time from marathoners. Before any of us had heard the term social or physical distancing, before COVID-19 even had a name, runners were preparing for this week. The London Marathon was supposed to take place this coming Sunday, and Boston's marathon had been set for last Monday. Two of the world's biggest now postponed for most runners anyway. But not for Lindsay Devers. Ms. Devers is a nurse anesthetist at Massachusetts General Hospital, and she completed the Boston Marathon all on her own this week with a few tweaks. We reached Lindsey Devers in Boston.

CO: Lindsay, how exactly do you run a Boston Marathon when it's cancelled?

LINDSAY DEVERS: I guess the best way to do it is to create your own route. [Chuckles] A one person marathon self-supported with hydration and gels and music.

CO: Okay, so what did you do in order to pull this off? What was your plan?

LD: My initial plan was just to run around the city, around the water and around the river. And then I wanted to get a little bit more creative to make it a little more fun. So initially, I thought of creating a route and ending it with the spelling of "Boston" in the streets.

CO: Spelling how? How do you spell it out?

LD: By just spelling B-o-s-t-o-n through the street.

CO: And then that's recorded on your GPS, so you can see the shape of it, right?

LD: Correct. And I was thinking, oh, well, I could push this a little bit further. I wonder if I can create a spelling of Boston Strong in the streets through my GPS. So I use an app called Strava where you could map out a distance and what you want to run. And I figured out a way or I thought I figured out a way to spell Boston Strong.

CO: What, you mean you thought you did? I thought you finished what you did.

LD: I finished what I did. I just didn't happen to spell it correctly. [Laughter] I think I was missing a little bit of a letter.

CO: Oh no. What did you do?

LD: I forgot to put the "n" in "strong." [Laughter] And the bad thing is that I even sent a screenshot to my six friends before and one of my marathon coaches saying, "Hey, I'm thinking of doing this route. Can you read what this says?" And they all said yes.

CO: And it said Boston Strog.

LD: It said Boston Strog. [Chuckles] Nobody picked up on it.

CO: When did you realize you had run Boston Strog

LD: I got to the finish line, actually, and there were some people around so they were asking me what route I ran. And I was like, oh, you know, I tried to spell out Boston Strong in the street. Let's see if it showed up on the GPS. So I pulled up the app and I instantly was like, "Oh no I spelt it wrong." [Chuckles]

CO: Did you really just say, "Oh no" or did you have some other words?

LD: I think that there's some other choice words in there after 26.2 miles.

CO: Okay. So even though you didn't Boston Strong, Boston Strog still worked out being a full marathon 26.2 miles?

LD: It was at least 26.2. It actually came out, I think, at 26.29 on one of my GPS trackers. And unfortunately, my other GPS tracker showed 28.8.

CO: Do you think you actually ran two more miles than it was necessary?

LD: I don't know if it was two more miles. But at some point, up until around mile 20, both the GPS were reading fairly consistently within .3 or .5 miles of each other. And then when all of a sudden there was a big jump. I didn't know which one I was supposed to believe.

CO: I've never run a marathon, but I know people who have. And one of the key things is it's the crowds, it's that energy you draw from the other people who are running, the people in the streets, the cheering. So how do you do that alone?

LD: [Chuckles] With a lot of good music. A lot of positive mental strength, and talking yourself through the negative moments, because we all have negative moments when you're at mile 18 and you're just like, "When is this going to end?" You just kind of have to take it. I can do one more block. I can do two more blocks. And take it one section at a time to kind of work your way through it.

CO: At what point did you have those very typical marathon moments when you didn't think you could do it?

LD: I think mile 18 through 20, actually were probably the toughest because previously my longest run had been 18 miles up until that point.

CO: Okay. So you did it and you did it on your own. So why did you do it?

LD: I think just to prove to myself that I could do it. You know, I put in five months of training, got up at 4:30-5:00 in the morning to go running before work. And I just wanted to see something through. You know, all these times that we are currently having are so uncertain. And I just wanted to show that there's a little bit of normalcy still in life.

CO: I want to ask you just one question about your work because you are a nurse at the Massachusetts General Hospital and this can't be a good time to be working in that field. What's it like for you and your colleagues right now?

LD: It's pretty stressful right now. So I'm a nurse anesthetist so we take care of patients usually in the operating room. But now in the intensive care setting. And I think one of the hardest things right now is seeing everybody alone. Most hospitals across the country have placed visitor restrictions. So you're basically everything to a patient. You're their family. You're their friend. You're their nurse and anesthetist. You're everything.

CO: How are your colleagues and your friends responding to your story?

LD: [Chuckles] I think I've had a lot of positive reception from it. I think a lot of people are inspired by it and a lot of people have had some really good laughs. So I think it's a great comic relief in a stressful period.

CO: We should point out that the official Boston Marathon, not yours, is still scheduled for September. They rescheduled it. So are you still going to train and go do the marathon if it should actually take place?

LD: Correct. Actually, training starts next week. So I'm going to take this week off and do some yoga and some cycling and get back to running on Monday.

CO: Your body feels up to it?

LD: Body feels pretty good. My hip is a little sore on one side. But other than that, I don't really feel like I ran a marathon, to be honest. [Chuckles]

CO: Well, you did. And you're out there keeping Boston Strog.

LD: Definitely keeping Boston Strog.

CO: [Laughter] Lindsay, it's great to talk to you. Thank you.

LD: Nice chatting with you too Carol.

CH: Lindsay Devers is a nurse anesthetists and marathoner. We reached her in Boston. You can find more on this story in see the Boston Strog route on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 2: Canadian chef refuses to reopen Georgia restaurants as state lifts COVID-19 restrictions

Hugh Acheson - Georgia

Guest: Hugh Acheson

CH: As you may have heard on our show last night, Georgia's governor has announced plans to reopen some businesses in his state beginning this week. Starting with bowling alleys, tattoo parlors, gyms, and nail salons. And Governor Brian Kemp has indicated that theaters and dine-in service at restaurants will follow on Monday. But not everyone is open to reopening. Hugh Acheson runs several restaurants in Georgia. He's a Canadian restaurateur and chef. You might know him from shows like Top Chef and Wall of Chefs. Mr. Acheson lives in Athens, Georgia. That's where we reached him.

CO: Hugh, you know what has been announced in your state. So do you plan to open your restaurants in Georgia on Monday?

HUGH ACHESON: No. It's way too early.

CO: You sent out a tweet. You said, "I am the leader of my restaurants. I will say when we open. It we'll be open when I feel it's safe for those I employ, for my family, and my customers." So tell us a bit about what went into your decision.

HA: You know, we shuttered my restaurants on March 15 -- the Ides of March. And it was a bit of a brutal time of getting everybody on unemployment. We've successfully got these government loans now. So everybody is back on payroll. And I just don't think that the government has really mandated a really precise step of protocol to ensure that all restaurants are safe and sanitary. I feel very confident in our skills, but we're still documenting how we address this. How do we do social distancing? What are our protocols? What are the cleaning and hygiene maintenance issues that we need to address every day and on a timely manner?

CO: You know that the Governor of Georgia, Brian Kemp, he says that they're following the protocol laid out by Washington. He said he was informed by the coronavirus task force and public health officials and for opening up America again. That's the name of the program. So he says he's following all the protocols for phase one. Do you disagree?

HA: I don't know if we have the empirical data to really look at that in a way where I would agree. In Georgia, less than half of 1 percent has been successfully tested for COVID-19. And that's just not enough of a slice of the population to put everybody at ease. And this is the same governor who three weeks ago was just informed that this could be passed by asymptomatic people and that he didn't understand that was the case until 24 hours before he uttered that on April 2nd. Just a reminder, the CDC is about six blocks away from where he said this.

CO: Okay. Also, he has said in his statement, he says, I hear the concerns of those I'm honoured to serve as governor. I see the terrible impact of COVID-19 on public health and the pocketbook. So is he not at least trying to look out for your interests as a businessman?

HA: Sure. As a business person, I just think that it's too soon. And when we look at the identified businesses that he is trying to get back operational, it's tattoo parlors and massage parlors, hair salons, wax centres, bowling alleys and restaurants. Those are a lot of people in economic hardship as it stands right now. As much as I would want them to go back to work, I would much rather them remain on unemployment until the coast has really decidedly clear. I don't want a boss who is overzealous and overthinking about the monetary gain of this situation to be putting a lot of people with very little say in this scenario back to work and in an unsafe environment.

CO: Okay. What does it mean then for your employees? How will they be paid if you stay closed?

HA: Currently they're on my payroll. So I pay them because we got successfully these government PPP loans. So that's an eight week forgivable loan program. So we have a cushion of eight weeks. So they're working at home or I've got a small contingent of them working at the restaurants. Doing this we produce 1400 meals a day for in need communities and first responders. So, you know, they're doing stuff at home, the ones who are working at home, and then 20 percent of them are working at the restaurant.

CO: We spoke with the Mayor of Athens, where you are. And just yesterday, he said what he's worried about is that he's not sure if some of the financing that has gone into helping people during the lockdown. How much of that will still exist if Georgia declares itself open, he doesn't know what people qualify for anymore -- have you been able to find out any more?

HA: No, that really remains to be seen. So if he's mandating enforcing restaurants in some ways to reopen because otherwise all their people will get dumped off the unemployment rolls, that's a very disconcerting way of getting an economic boost in this state.

CO: Is that possible? The mayor said he didn't know, but he was worried that that might be the case.

HA: I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I think that's highly probable.

CO: What are you hearing from other restaurant owners in Georgia? Are they going to do the same as you?

HA: I have talked to probably about 100 of them within the last 24 hours. And I have not encountered one person who was prepared to bring their staff back and open to the general public on Monday.

CO: And what are you most worried about if restaurants do start to open?

HA: The unknown factor. You know, when we look at a restaurant worker who is a line cook who gets paid $12 an hour, it's just not that much, they live on the outskirts of town with six other people as roommates, they take public transit to work, they go to the grocery store. They walk through the park. There's a lot of points of contact there that worry me. We haven't fixed these endemic issues yet to be able to give peace of mind to lower income Americans -- being put back to work in a safe environment.

CO: There have been a few Tweets in the State of Georgia from people in business, restaurant owners, who say that the other concern is if they did open and bring their staff back, they would be paying them and they wouldn't get any customers. The mayor said the same thing. He doesn't think people will go the restaurants, even if they do open.

HA: And I think that the mayor is a very very astute fellow. And I think that that's true. And I work in fine dining. We have a lot of success in fine dining, in the world of what we do and being an acclaimed chef and having a lot of success in it. I think this is the first time ever in my lifetime I would say comfortably say this is not the time for fine dining.

CO: Hugh it is good to talk to you. I appreciate it. Thank you.

HA: Thank you.

CH: That was Canadian chef and restaurateur Hugh Acheson in Athens, Georgia. And for more on this story, you can visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Little Bay Islands

CH: Ask anyone who's visited a grocery store, dog park, or a laundromat in the last month -- even if you follow all the rules, physical distancing is a challenge for most people. But Michael and Georgina Parsons aren't like most people. The couple live in Little Bay Islands, Newfoundland and Labrador, which currently has a population of two. As in the two of them. The Parsons are the last remaining people in Little Bay Islands after the remote community was resettled at the end of last year. And yesterday, the couple spoke with the CBC about how it feels now that most of the world has adopted their isolated way of living. Here's part of their conversation.

MICHAEL PARSONS: It does seem surreal that, you know, the lifestyle that we actually chose to live, which is being isolated and alone, is what most people are actually forced into now, and certainly not by choice.

ANTHONY GERMAIN: It's almost like you guys are living in a sci-fi movie where you decide you're going to drop off the planet, a lot of people thought you were crazy, now you look like geniuses. And yet you do this and then the rest of the world is struck by this. Did you ever feel like you were living in a movie?

MICHAEL PARSONS: Yeah. [Chuckles] We have actually. And I do quite a bit of reading and a lot of science fiction reading and stuff. And yeah, I've read these scenarios and you know, it is surreal. And, you know, sometimes we have to kind of scratch your head and say, you know, are we living in the Matrix or is this actually real?

ANTHONY GERMAIN: One final question for you. As you know, a Little Bay Islands voted itself out of existence, still controversial. But some people are going to head back there in the summer. I can't imagine people have to self isolate when they go to a Little Bay Islands. But how do you feel about people heading back to your little solitary paradise this summer?

GEORGINA PARSONS: Well, I guess, you know, we love this experience by ourselves, as everybody knows that we can't be greedy. So we know that there is others that love it equally as much and they're all very excited to get back. So unfortunately, we might not be able to welcome with open arms the traditional way, depending on how everything goes over the next weeks and months. But certainly we're happy for people to get back here and be able to enjoy it again the way they love.

CH: There was CBC host Anthony Germain speaking with Michael and Georgina Parsons. The couple are currently the only people living in Little Bay Islands, Newfoundland and Labrador.

[Music]

Singing Dogs: Cody & Pickles

CH: People often ask animal behaviour experts why dogs sing along to a particular piece of music. Are they howling for social reasons or because of some frequency in the song? But few ask an important follow up: Why are they so terrible at it? They're poor interpreters of the material and very pitchy. I have to admit, though, that we have enabled tone-deaf dogs. And tonight in our journey into the As It Happens archives. We'll hear two of them. First, in 1977, Cody, an English Springer Spaniel, had just been named the smartest dog in the UK. So Barbara Frum and Alan Maitland talk to his owner Charles Goff.

BARBARA FRUM: Mr. Goff.

CHARLES GOFF: Yes. Barbara, is it?

BARBARA FRUM: How do you do?

CHARLES GOFF: I'm doing well. And how do you do?

BARBARA FRUM: Good.

CHARLES GOFF: Are you the equivalent of the BBC here in England?

BARBARA FRUM: They are the equivalent of us Mr. Goff.

CHARLES GOFF: Oh, well done. [Chuckles] I think that's very well put. They are your equivalent.

BARBARA FRUM: Yes.

CHARLES GOFF: All right. I'll accept it.

BARBARA FRUM: I'm here with Alan Maitland.

ALAN MAITLAND: Hello, Mr. Goff.

BARBARA FRUM: Now, here we are to talk to about Cody.

CHARLES GOFF: What do you want to know about him?

BARBARA FRUM: Where is he, first of all?

CHARLES GOFF: He is here in that house by me.

BARBARA FRUM: We'd like to talk to him.

CHARLES GOFF: You'd like to talk to him? Now do you want me to put the phone to his ear?

BARBARA FRUM: I think that might be a start.

CHARLES GOFF: Right. I'll put the phone on his ear now. Whatever you want to say to him. Cody. Come here. Here's a good boy. Cody, come on. Cody up, up [whistles]. That's a good boy. [Asking the hosts] You ready?

ALAN MAITLAND: Ready.

CHARLES GOFF: Right.

ALAN MAITLAND: Cody, sit down. Sit cody. [Laughter] Sit down. Speak.

CHARLES GOFF: Hello.

BARBARA FRUM: [Laughter] His master's voice. How come the dog won't talk to us?

CHARLES GOFF: He'll want to talk to you.

BARBARA FRUM: Well, we would like him to talk to us.

CHARLES GOFF: Would you?

BARBARA FRUM: Yes.

CHARLES GOFF: What would you like him to say?

BARBARA FRUM: Well whenever he could.

CHARLES GOFF: Well, it's a pity he can't talk, but he can do more things besides that. Oh there it is.

BARBARA FRUM: What can he do, Mr. Goff?

CHARLES GOFF: What can you do? Well, now let's put it another way, there are not many things that he can do besides read the paper. He will fetch. He will fetch his water bowl if it's empty and bring it down to have it filled. He won't bring it down unless it's empty. He will do the same thing along with his dinner dish. Now, when he is out with me fishing, for instance, and if he sits by the side of the river and watches me fish and watches the fish jumping and that sort of thing. And immediately he sees the [inaudible] well he'll immediately pop off. Run back as far as the car and fetch the gaff. If I lose my fly and I want a new fly to go on the fly line, I'll tell him to go back to the car and fetch my fly box, which he will take out of my fishing bag, which is by the car.

BARBARA FRUM: Really?

CHARLES GOFF: He will do that. It goes to show his intelligence, doesn't it?

BARBARA FRUM: Mr. Goff, what will he do around the house to be helpful?

CHARLES GOFF: Well, around the house, for instance -- if my wife, now he is in the house in fact and a bit later on the of course, he would be going to his kennel. But before we go to his kennel, my wife, I suppose, like most of you ladies, would be doing her hair to put her rolers in. Well, as soon as he sees her take her hair down, straight upstairs, he goes to fetch the rolers. He knows where they are. They're upstairs in the dressing room.

BARBARA FRUM: Mr. Goff, you have to tell Cody what to do, right? He doesn't read your mind.

CHARLES GOFF: Oh, no, no. I wouldn't say he doesn't read your mind. In fact, what I've told you what he will do when he sees me hook a fish. He knows exactly what to do.

BARBARA FRUM: Mr. Goff, Cody sounds like a winner.

CHARLES GOFF: He'll sing a song if you want to hear him sing a song.

BARBARA FRUM: Oh, of course. Are you kidding? Of course. What does he know?

CHARLES GOFF: Well, I'll tell you what his favourite is: I'll be your sweetheart.

BARBARA FRUM: Super.

CHARLES GOFF: You want to hear him?

BARBARA FRUM: You know we do.

CHARLES GOFF: Well, hold tight a minute. Cody, now would you like to sing a songu for your mistress? Now, what's your favorite song? I'll be your sweetheart, isn't it? Now you're going to sing, I'll be your sweetheart. Come on. [Charles sings and Cody howls in the background] That's good boy. That's a good boy. That's a good boy. That's enough. Thank you.

BARBARA FRUM: [Laughs] What do you have to squeeze on to get that sound Mr. Goff?

CHARLES GOFF: Did you get that down?

BARBARA FRUM: That was wonderful. Well, he's a winner. I can see why.

CHARLES GOFF: Yeah.

BARBARA FRUM: Well, you're a fine man who trained such a fine dog.

CHARLES GOFF: Hmm.

BARBARA FRUM: Thanks, Mr. Goff.

CHARLES GOFF: Good.

BARBARA FRUM: Bye.

CHARLES GOFF: Bye bye for now then.

CH: To quote former American Idol judge Randy Jackson, "Yeah, that's gonna be a no from me, dog." From our archives, Charles Goff and his dog Cody in 1977. And as much as we loved her Pickles wasn't much better. Again, great energy. But when Pickles sang along to the As It Happens theme, she didn't really get across the nuance of Moe Koffman's graceful flute. From April 2005, here's Mary Lou Finlay's conversation with Nancy LoPresti, proud owner of Pickles.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Ms. LoPresti?

NANCY LOPRESTI: Hi, Mary Lou.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Hi, how are you?

NANCY LOPRESTI: I'm fine, thank you.

MARY LOU FINLAY: How's Pickles?

NANCY LOPRESTI: Oh, she's sweet.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Yeah?

NANCY LOPRESTI: Yeah. Ready to sing hopefully.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Oh, great. Now, what kind of dog is she?

NANCY LOPRESTI: She is a toy poodle. And she's about four and a half years old. And she's very hairy. [Chuckles] She needs a haircut. Yeah. And she looks more like a teddy bear than a poodle, actually. And she's a little overweight because Tom gives her too many biscuits. But he's just a very sweet friendly dog.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Blonder or brunette?

NANCY LOPRESTI: She's blond with a little bit of apricot on her.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Oh, how lovely. So she likes the theme song, does she?

NANCY LOPRESTI: Yes she does.

MARY LOU FINLAY: And how does she demonstrate that?

NANCY LOPRESTI: Well, Tom plays electric guitar and he was playing one day and I was in the kitchen.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Tom's your husband?

NANCY LOPRESTI: Yes. And the next thing you knew, we could hear this noise. And I thought it was him and he thought it was me. And then we realized it was the dog and she was howling away to the music he was playing. So since then, she has become an Alan Jackson fan because that's what he plays. And we can get her to sing to several of Alan Jackson's tunes that she just likes. And from that one, they were in the car and As It Happens, was playing. And she started to howl to that. And since then, she has done it on cue. You come on at 6:30 and she just puts her head back and away she goes. And I think the tip off is when you say, "Hello, I'm Mary Lou Finlay" and her ears just perk right up and when the music starts, away she goes.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Now, we could take that howling one of two ways, I guess. Couldn't we?

LINDSAY DEVERS: Oh, I think it's a happy howl. [Chuckles]

MARY LOU FINLAY: Oh, good.

LINDSAY DEVERS: I think so. If she's not too excited when she sings, she actually kind of sings with the music. You know, she has a gentle howl sometimes. If there's company, then she kind of gets a bit screechy, you know, because she knows she's performing.

MARY LOU FINLAY: She's showing off.

LINDSAY DEVERS: Yeah. We have a lot of music in our house. And I think that she just reacts to it.

MLF: So should we give it a whirl? Is she there?

NL: She's here and I'll put it on, just one moment.

MLF: Are you going to play the theme for her?

NL: I'm going to play it for her. Just a second.

[DOG BARKS]

MLF: Clearing her throat.

[AS IT HAPPENS THEME PLAYS]

[PICKLES HOWLING]

NL: How’s that?

MLF: Oh, that's lovely. What a beautiful voice she has. You thought that was Tom when you first heard it?

NL: I'm sorry. You know what; I gotta turn it down so I can hear you. Hang on.

MLF: I said she has a lovely voice but I was a little concerned that you thought that was Tom when you first heard it and he thought it was you.

NL: Yes, that's right. Well, we don't sound like that. We just thought somebody was fooling around. We just couldn't believe it was the dog, you know.

MLF: Every night?

NL: Every night at 6:30 she does this. And the music has something to do with it because after you talk for a while you play the music again, she starts to howl again.

MLF: I don't think I'll ever hear the theme again. [Laughter] Pickles' lovely soprano along with it. Well, is pickles in good health?

NL: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yes. Well she's four and a half. And we've never had any trouble with her. She's quite healthy.

MLF: Okay well, lovely to hear her today.

NL: Thank you.

MLF: Thank you so much.

NL: Thank you for having us on your show.

MLF: You're sure that wasn't you?

NL: No. [Laughs]

MLF: Okay, bye bye.

NL: Bye bye.

MLF: Say hello to Tom.

NL: I will.

MLF: Nancy?

NL: Yeah.

MLF: Yeah. I was just thinking just after I said goodbye that I really would like to hear Pickles one more time. So shall we do that one more time?

NL: We'll do it again. Just one moment.

MLF: Gonna clear your throat Pickles? Yeah.

[As It Happens Theme Plays] [Pickles howls along to theme]

CH: From 2005, that's Mary Lou Finlay speaking with Nancy LoPresti, owner of Pickles.

[Music]

Part 3: Encore: Michael Christie

Encore: Michael Christie

CH: There are trees everywhere, and Michael Christie's novel "Greenwood" -- the physical book itself is made of trees, of course. But the story is made of trees too because they're everywhere throughout the century plus saga of the Greenwood family and their tales of heartbreak, family secrets, and forbidden love. When it starts, we meet Jake Greenwood, a forest guide in the not distant enough future who takes rich tourists through one of the world's last remaining forests in B.C.. Then we go back in time to meet Jake's father, who's a carpenter. Then his mother, who's an environmental activist. And then her father, who's a timber magnate. And in telling their stories, Michael Christie writes about climate change, opium addiction, the Dust Bowl, early 20th century capitalism and the challenges of woodworking. The result is historical fiction, a family epic, and a page turner. Last October, Michael Christie spoke with Carol from a CBC studio in Victoria, B.C.. Here's an encore presentation of that conversation.

CO: Michael Christie welcome to the As It Happens show and the studio in Victoria.

MICHAEL CHRISTIE: Thank you Carol. It's a pleasure to be here.

CO: You seem to have taken tree hugging to the level of art in this book "Greenwood."

MC: You could say that. I mean I didn't begin the book as a tree hugger but you know after I wrote the final page I am now a card carrying tree hugger. [Laughter]

CO: Well it's really wonderful. It's a remarkable achievement I have to say. But every part of it -- including just the object of the book itself and the structure. And we don't normally start an interview talking about the structure of a book except that it's so intriguing. Everything is woven into that including the book itself. So how did you come up with this structure? Describe what it is and maybe say how you invented it.

MC: For sure yeah. I mean the structure of the narrative mirrors the rings of a tree. So the cross section of a tree. So it begins in the near future, passes back in time to 2008, back and back to sort of the centre of the narrative tree in the beginning of this particular family that I'm writing about. And then the story comes back out through those same rings again to the near future. I mean I came up with the structure when I was cutting down a tree -- I'm sorry to report, but it was a small tree on our property where we live on Galiano Island in British Columbia. And cut the tree down, it had to go because we were putting in a driveway so it was a difficult decision. And then examined the rings of the tree and saw that you know a stump is a kind of record and is almost a kind of narrative in itself. And I had this -- I'm not a big believer of anyone when they say they had an epiphany but I did and I saw the structure of a story there.

CO: You start with the outer ring and moved to the inner ring which is in 1908. And then go back out to the 2038. And so I want to ask you about 2038 -- that's the outer ring of the tree. And Jake Greenwood who is the character of this family of that generation in this family saga. And her job at Greenwood Arboreal Cathedral. Tell us about her and her job.

MC: Jake is a highly qualified scientist. She's studied you know the inter-communicative mechanisms of trees for most of her life but she's been reduced to being a forest guide in this last remaining old growth forest that remains after something called the great withering has decimated forests and trees all across the world. So her job is to guide wealthy tourists essentially through the trees, describe their wonder and majesty to them, and be paid very poorly to do so.

CO: And these are these extraordinary Douglas firs that anyone who's been out there have seen on the islands at Cathedral Grove which are in some cases well 1,200-1,500 years old, right?

MC: Absolutely and they're towering creatures. They're you know hundreds of feet high. I called the Greenwood Arboreal Cathedral a cathedral for a reason and that is because they do feel like holy places. They have this sense of spirituality to them and awe that visits you when you are there.

CO: 2038 which isn't so far away and all the trees or very few trees are left on Earth after what you just mentioned "the great withering." Can you tell us what that is and to what degree is it an invention on your part?

MC: I mean I dearly wish that I could say it involved a lot more imagination than it did because where I live on Galiano Island the Western Red Cedars which are the provincial tree of British Columbia many of them are Browning and dying due to what people believe is drought stress. So you know a series of droughts has rendered these trees unable to survive. And so it's you know -- it's incredibly tragic. My wife who grew up on Galiano island her name is Cedar. So you know it's something that hits so close to home for me. And so I mean "the great weathering" is not a work of imagination.

CO: So what's left of Earth are great swatches of desert. Most of it's a desert. Most of it is like a dust bowl. And these places -- these last remaining stands of trees -- are where only wealthy people can enjoy them. So not only is this destruction of the Earth part of the story but it's also that there is the class society, there's very very riven, isn't it? It's really just those who have nothing and those who have everything.

MC: Absolutely. I mean it's a dark idea but it's one I think we ought to confront in terms of you know as these wondrous natural places shrink and as the world becomes less habitable you know the resources like water, like forests, like you know livable land are going to become more scarce. And who is going to try to control them but the wealthy and the powerful. And that's happening in my book.

CO: So we don't stay in 2038 as we've mentioned. This is a family saga that goes back through the rings of the story to 1908 and traces the history of Jake's family -- the Greenwood family. Each of these generations has a different relationship with trees. Can you sketch some of those?

MC: Absolutely. I mean it's that's sort of the unifying theme of the book is that each generation -- you know their lives are intimately entwined with trees in some fashion. So Jake is a scientist. Her father Liam Greenwood who's living in 2008 is a carpenter who does reclaimed wood for you know coffee shops and bars -- mostly in the New York area. His mother Willow Greenwood is living in 1974 and she's a sort of a fervent eco-warrior/protestor who pours sugar into the gas tanks of logging equipment to halt old growth logging in mostly in the Pacific Northwest. She also lives in a van for most of her life. Before that, we have the two brothers Everett and Harris Greenwood. They are living during the Dust Bowl in 1934. One of them -- Harris -- is a timber tycoon who is clear cutting massive amounts of forest land across Canada and amassing a huge fortune in the process. And his brother Everett Greenwood who is a survivor of World War One who is sort of a damaged drifter who plays pretty figuratively in this story of the Greenwood's.

CO: And it takes us back to 1908 and their origins. And for anyone who thinks this is just -- okay [chuckles] -- one generation begets the next generation. You completely tear that apart. I mean it has all the qualities of epic but these people, their relationships are so interesting and so unexpected. And as you point out at some point that the way trees are all connected through their roots but they're all individuals and separate. And that's really what you're multigenerational saga does, doesn't it?

MC: It does. I mean in a way I mean there's the overarching metaphor of the family tree. But I try to subvert that in the sense you know that I'm kind of saying that we're all interconnected in a way and whether we are related by blood or not, it is the relationships we build and the ties that we make that is truly what relates us.

CO: So the Greenwood family tree is really a forest.

MC: Oh it's a mess and a forest. It's a messy forest. [Laughter]

CO: You are listening to As It Happens and I am speaking with Michael Christie who is in our Victoria studio and about his new novel -- his fascinating novel -- called "Greenwood." And Michael I want to ask you a bit about yourself. You mentioned that you live on Galiano Island in British Columbia. And you obviously are surrounded by trees. What is your relationship with trees?

MC: It's very close. I mean I grew up in Thunder Bay, Ontario, smelling the mill -- the pulp mill smoke wafting past my house. And I've always been quite connected to trees and to forests and to natural spaces. And when we moved to Galiano we got a little piece of land and decided we were going to build a house. And I in my infinite wisdom decided that I was too cheap to pay someone to do that and that I was going to attempt to do this -- so I did that. We brought some trees down on the property and we had them milled right there and so we built a timber frame little cabin and that's where we live now. And it's lovely.

CO: And these kinds of experiences of yours all work their way into -- they're built into this story. And even this character Liam you mentioned -- this is the 2008 part of this story. Liam reflects that -- because he's a carpenter and he builds these beautiful counters in bars with recycled wood -- he says we think we live in boxes until we look closer and find that we are in fact living in irregular shapes in big misshapen accidents. So does that describe your house?

MC: [Laughter] Yes. Liam would look quite scornfully on anything that I've ever built. I am a hack. I am not a fine carpenter but I can get the job done. And I mean our house does appear square and for all intents and purposes it is. [Laughs] But you know that's one of the beautiful -- I think that's what people like about wooden structures is that they...you know they are not artificial. They are living structures. Wood is you know one of the materials that is closest to our hearts I think as human beings.

CO: The relationship people have with trees in this book and clearly yours as well, it's more than just this sort of pragmatic thing of we need them to recycle the air, we need them to build stuff with, we need them to shield us from the sun. There's a connection -- I am going to say spiritual, I almost said that -- but it's more than. It's vital. It's the vitality of people walking in the woods and feeling this connection with trees that revitalizes them in an essential way. Is that your relationship?

MC: Absolutely. I mean there's all this research now you know that demonstrates that time spent in the trees you know increases our sense of well-being, it actually lowers our blood pressure physically and this is measurable. It doubles our creativity you know. And I think we have structured our society so that we are so still removed from these natural spaces. And only now are we beginning to realize how fundamentally important it is to the human being to be in forests and to be in natural environments. And you know I get to live in one which is wonderful for me.

CO: But you must also see this as an important thing that you must do as a writer because there was a Global Mail article by Marsha Lederman describing the role that art plays during the climate crisis that so many people -- different types of artists are now looking at this environmental issue and incorporating it into their work. Did you feel like some kind of artistic responsibility to incorporate what you're seeing with the trees into fiction?

MC: I didn't at first. I mean this idea for this novel began you know sort of in the way that all of my ideas begin and that's I want to write about a dysfunctional family. [Laughs] You know most of my work centres around that basic kind of idea -- functional and dysfunctional. But as I was writing it and as I was doing research and as I myself was becoming more and more entwined with trees and more interested in forests and carpentry and you know the history of logging in Canada, I became more and more aware that I was writing what could be called an environmental novel in the sense that there is a kind of evolution that takes place -- a sort of a societal transformation that takes place throughout the course of the narrative with respect to you know how we look at trees. And also should be said that in my research you know I was reading John Steinbeck -- you know sort of classic novels of this kind. And in my reading of Grapes of Wrath again -- which I hadn't visited for a long time -- I realized that it's in fact an environmental novel. There's this huge you know environmental calamity that takes place in...

CO: Dust Bowl.

MC: The Dust Bowl. And the Okies are displaced and they become climate refugees within their own country and they're forced to travel to California. And so we can think of these new sort of like climate fiction as a new thing. But in actual truth you know people have been doing it for a long time.

CO: And children are very central to each stage of your book as they would be in kind of dynastic work. But the children -- all of them have this intimate relationship with forests. I'm wondering do your own children interact with the forest in that way?

MC: Absolutely. I mean you know they can't have no choice but to because it's sort of our playground. [Laughter] But yeah -- I mean it's just something that children get. You know they see a natural space and they're just itching to venture out into it. I don't know. It's innate in them. And the presence of my own children -- I have two young sons -- you know in my life has certainly upped the stakes for me in terms of you know the amount I think about the future and the degree to which I feel I'm invested in you know how this whole thing turns out. So my own sort of climate consciousness has been raised by them in the process.

CO: But we're hearing from so many young people. Their feelings of despair. Entire groups -- they're joining little societies of teenagers who are declaring that they will not have children, they will be the last generation because they feel there's no place to bring anybody else -- any other generation -- into it. Are your children aware of that? Are they aware of climate change and how it's affecting your forest?

MC: They are. And you know as particularly my youngest son who is 6 he has a very kind of emotional relationship with animals. He remembers animal facts. He can identify trees. Like he's got a really just sort of strong connection. And you know we'll watch you know Planet Earth, BBC documentaries, quite often and you know the section near the end when you see the polar bear floating on the tiny piece of ice and it can't hunt you know because of climate change, he gets very upset and sometimes we have to kind of turn it off or I'll say okay that's it you know it's over, sort of thing, because it's devastating. And I think that we ought not ignore that. I think that kids are tuned into something that we have built this callous over you know throughout our adult lives and they're right, it is horrific. It is grotesque. And it's terrifying. And it's something that we must manage.

CO: I am speaking with Michael Christie about his latest novel "Greenwood." And this is course As It Happens. When you say that about the despair just how depressing this can be for young people -- what I really admire about this novel is that it's hopeful. It actually doesn't make you feel that dystopian despair that works of fiction like this do elsewhere. And I'm wondering how you managed to do that. Did you consciously say, no -- I'm not going to infect people with the complete sense of suicidal despair after this book?

MC: Yeah. I mean I think that you know books that sort of traffic in you know just sheer outright pessimism are false. I don't think that life is meaningless and we're all doomed and blah blah blah. You know I do see hope everywhere and I see hope in the climate strikes and I see hope in all kinds of initiatives that are coming. And so I mean I think the sort of central idea of the book is that is our interconnectedness. And in every generation of this family there are people reaching out to others. There are people who are sacrificing for others. There are people who are you know falling in love and finding hope in one another. And so I mean the central idea of the book I think is this kind of interconnectedness that we all are part of a human family and only through that kind of thinking and through that kind of collective response are we going to be able to deal with this crisis.

CO: I think also all of your characters are infused with a tremendous amount of humanity -- even the bad guys. And there are some really evil people in this [laughing]. But even they are looking -- the timber tycoons and the rich who are trying to exploit the Earth -- they're all looking for some kind of joy within their lives or love within their relationships. And so I'm sure that's very conscious on your part.

MC: Absolutely. I mean that is what I understand about human nature. I mean I spent seven years working at a homeless shelter on Vancouver's Downtown Eastside. And I came in contact with pimps and drug dealers and people you know who are predatory and people who are you know what you could normally say as evil. But even in them you know you'd see these glimmers of humanity and you know these sort of sad moments where you know either they're reaching out and they're trying to you know connect to their own life and trying to find joy in some small way. So you know that is what I understand about people. I don't think there are any evil villains in the world.

CO: It's such a page turner, right. I mean you have all those things that make book so un-put-downable. The recognition scenes. The "Oh my gosh! Are they related? Are they not related?"

MC: I love that stuff. I mean I love good storytelling. And I love you know that propulsive feeling that you feel when you're reading a novel. And you know I tried to sort of marry that with bigger picture ideas and depth of character and all the good stuff that literary novels do. But at the same time you know it's hopefully a good story.

CO: And there is sex, cross-country chase scenes, lost and found objects -- always a good one. But at the same time what you had to try to avoid -- I would imagine you did because you did avoid it I presume consciously -- that it could have been didactic. It could have been preachy given the thematic basis even the shape as we described -- the structure of the book. How consciously did you try to avoid that?

MC: I mean not too consciously. A novel I kind of think is just a series of balancing acts in the sense that you are trying to strike this perfect balance between doing it and overdoing it you know pretty much over and over and over again. And you know the editing process which was long for this book -- I put an enormous amount of work into it. There were you know hundred drafts. Just like incredible you know revisions, fine tuning. So you just hope that you can get that mix right where you know things are believable and exciting but at the same time human and rooted in life and affecting.

CO: But it is a book with a message. And perhaps we can all extract our own message from it. But what is yours?

MC: It's so hard to sum up a book of this size to one message...

CO: Sorry [laughs]

MC: I mean I'm happy to try. The message of the book is the interconnectedness of all living things -- which sounds grandiose and I apologize but the fact that we are intimately tied to one another, that we are intimately tied to our environment, and we ignore that fact at our peril.

CO: Okay since you are willing to venture yours. I'll say mine. My takeaway.

MC: Please do. I might like yours better.

CO: That we need to have a whole new relationship with planet Earth.

MC: Yes absolutely. And that's part of that interconnectedness. I think this is something that everyone is realizing you know increasingly that we have to radically change how we are living on this planet if we have any hope of surviving. And this book while it is not a didactic argument for that -- you know it is an argument. And my hope is that it would demonstrate the importance of collective type thinking.

CO: We just want to get you to do a little reading. And just set it up for us if you would.

MC: You bet. So I'm going to be reading from the future section of the novel which is 2038. Takes place in the year 2038. And Jake Greenwood who is a forest guide in the Greenwood Arboreal Cathedral has just had a meeting with a man from her past. And he has given her a book that he alleges was the property of one of her ancestors. And I should also say that books and paper have become in short supply obviously after the trees have withered across the planet and so not only is she amazed by this book's relationship or potential relationship to her own history, she's amazed by it as a physical object as well.

MC: [Starts reading] Later that evening, Jake returns to her staff cabin. Pours herself a hefty bourbon and curls into the love seat with the paper book spread in her lap. After five more tours shepherding pilgrims through the cathedral, her eyes are sludgy and unprepared for parsing the book's tricky cursive script. She hasn't seen anyone write in this antiquated fashion for years and never learned the technique in her Delhi elementary school. Just two pages in, Jake's chin begins to dip thereby unraveling the few narrative fibers that she'd managed to weave together. It was silly to get your hopes up, she tells herself rising to place the paper book in her father's old cardboard box filing it away with all her other meaningless family heirlooms. Though she understands this journal is something that ought to have great bearing on her life. Unfortunately for Silas and his scheme, Jake has always mistrusted the expression "knowing your roots." As though roots by their very definition are knowable. Any dendrologist can tell you that the roots of a mature Douglas fir spread for miles. That they're dark. And intertwining -- tangled and twisted and impossible to map. But they often fuse together and even communicate secretly sharing nutrients and chemical weapons among themselves. So the truth is that there exists no clear distinction between one tree and another and their roots are anything but knowable. Jake snaps back her drink and retrieves the paper book from the box, flipping to the inside front cover where she finds facing the first page -- a splash of crudely penciled words scrawled in a child's block print: Property of Willow Greenwood. Despite her reservations about Silas's true motivations and her general bafflement with the book's cryptic entries, Jake's heart takes a little skip at the sight of her grandmother's name however misspelled it may be. And while drinking herself toward a welcome oblivion throughout the evening she wonders about Willow Greenwood and who she was and what impelled her to give her fortune away. She wonders about her father and if he also drank and whether that's what made him troubled. If he did ,Jake already forgives him. Maybe she drinks because of his genes or because of his absence. Or maybe his genes created his absence which created her drinking. Or maybe he felt just as unwelcome in the world as she does now. And drinking was the only thing that allowed him any reprieve. Or maybe her roots are all too tangled and there's no single story to be told about any of it. Deep in the night just after she's dragged her cathedral issue comforter over her body and is preparing to pass out, she lifts the paper book one last time and fans its grimy hand-inked pages. How intimately a book is related to the tree and its rings she thinks. The layers of time preserved for all to examine.

CO: Michael thank you and thank you for this book and thank you for speaking with us.

MC: Thank you Carol. It was such a pleasure speaking with you. That was just so fun.

CO: All right. Take care.

MC: You too.

CH: That was Michael Christie speaking with Carol from a CBC studio in Victoria last October. He's the author of the novel "Greenwood" which is published by McClelland and Stewart.

April 22, 2020 Episode Transcript

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