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The AIH Transcript for June 26, 2018

Hosts: Robyn Bresnahan and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

RB: Hello, I'm Robyn Bresnahan sitting in for Carol Off.

JD: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight.

RB: Arriving at a conclusion about arrivals, Toronto Mayor John Tory says an enormous influx of refugees has exhausted the city's shelter system. And he's demanding that Ottawa step in.

JD: Surfer's tension. First he lost his board then he lost consciousness. And our guest almost lost his life boarding on the St. Lawrence, if it hadn't been for the people who swept in to save him.

RB: Tunnel vision with torrential rains raising water levels. All eyes are on a Thailand cave system where a group of young soccer players and their coach are trapped.

JD: Giant steps for 200 years. Despite his wishes, the skeleton of a man with gigantism has been displayed at a London museum. But thanks to our guest Charles Burns, final wishes may still be carried out.

RB: The sound and the flurry. Five days into summer, parts of Newfoundland get an unwelcome blanket of snow and as you'll hear, one meteorologist is refusing to take the powder.

JD: And the bluebirds of unhappiness. The City of Surrey, British Columbia is finally going to take action to remove a bunch of beautiful invaders. But when it comes to evicting the peahens and peacocks, some people are PO-ed. As It Happens, the Tuesday edition -- radio that guesses none of them will be grand feathered in.

Part 1: Toronto Refugees, Thailand Cave, Surrey Peacocks

TORONTO REFUGEES

Guest: Adam Vaughan

[Music: Theme]

JD: John Tory says his city is at its limit. The Toronto mayor announced today that wave after wave of asylum seekers have overwhelmed both the city's supply of emergency shelters and its staff. And now the mayor is turning to Ottawa for help. Here is some of what Mayor Tory had to say today.

SOUNDCLIP

Some people are really just exhausted too. This is a big challenge for our very hardworking staff and we've had to take on new staff and those people are becoming exhausted. You know I just think that the notion that the City of Toronto -- even as the biggest city in the country -- should be doing this all by itself doesn't make any sense. It's not fair, it's not right and I'm just asking for help that goes beyond money. And soon.

JD: That was Toronto Mayor John Tory earlier today. Mayor Tory wants action now, but Ottawa says he will have to wait until the new Progressive Conservative government is fully up and running at Queen's Park. Adam Vaughan is a Toronto Liberal MP.

RB: Mr. Vaughan, Mayor Tory says it's not fair for Toronto to be facing this crisis alone. What is your response to that?

ADAM VAUGHAN: He's right. You know I'm a former city councillor. I left city council to take a seat in Parliament. Precisely the city's got a fair shake. And we know right across the country -- and particularly in Ontario and Quebec -- the municipalities are doing a lot of heavy lifting on this file as we deal with these irregular surges of migration. And we want to thank the city for the work they're doing and assure them that help is on the way. As it is and has been done in Quebec, we expect a similar system to kick in as soon as the new provincial government is sworn in in Ontario.

RB: But Toronto's mayor has been asking the federal government for help to house refugees for months. So why hasn't that arrived?

AV: Well, it has. We substantially increased a number of different funding streams in this area. The homelessness funds were increased in the city of Toronto as part of our doubling of the HPS money which is the Homeless Partnership Strategy money. We put 50 million dollars on the table. We expect a substantial portion of that will get to Ontario as soon as the provincial government is sworn in and executes the agreements to get it in place. And we're prepared to do more. We also automatically fund and provide services both to Ontario and the City of Toronto which the Ontario money flows to the cities to support refugees and the shelter system. So we understand that cities cannot pay for this off the property tax base and we understand they do some great work. And what we're looking for is a provincial system to -- much like we have in Quebec now -- the triages and redistributes the burden fairly across Ontario. We're going to support that with federal funds and then we're going to lean on local municipalities with support being delivered to local municipalities to provide services to people who are in the process of getting their immigration status certified.

RB: But the City of Toronto estimates it's had to spend more than 64 million dollars to provide temporary housing for refugees. John Tory believes it should be reimbursed -- all of it in full -- by other levels of government. What's your reaction to that?

AV: Well, we'll look at the documentation that they're providing. Good data helps us make these decisions. Some of those people are part of the general population count that's in the Toronto shelter system, which has been in crisis since I was on city council and before that. That's why I got into politics. You know the work I do in Ottawa is around homelessness and around the shelter systems across the country. Just did a big study across Canada. We're increasing supports for shelters. We're increasing supports for housing with the national housing strategy and we're stepping up with additional supports for immigrant resettlement, regardless of how they've entered the country. The issue here is good data and a good system and we will support and fund that. And we've been working very closely since this latest surge in shelter populations in Toronto to get at that point. The trouble is there's been an election and the agreements that we have in place -- and it's not just Toronto, it's municipalities across Ontario -- that have to be supported and we need the provincial government to help identify capacity and resources to relocate immigrants and refugees as they arrive. We need support from the federal government to flow straight to cities so they can pay for the situation they're encountering.

RB: At the end of the day, it's your government who controls the borders. It was Prime Minister Trudeau who sent out a tweet saying to those fleeing persecution, terror and war, Canadians will welcome you regardless of your faith. Diversity is our strength. I mean did all of this come with a federal plan for new refugee housing in Toronto?

AV: No, of course it did. I mean that's the oversimplification of the opposition lines in Question Period. The reality is one tweet didn't create a conflict in Nigeria any more that it created a fire in Fort McMurray. The reality is this, is that we have got to step up on our global obligations around the world. We have the capacity and the responsibility as a country. So we have, long before anyone asked us to, increased our numbers for refugees. We have built a new system. We've added additional resources into that system.

RB: But the Toronto mayor is -- he wouldn't be standing up giving a press conference if he was happy with that, if he wasn't saying that this is at capacity, pleading for help. I mean do you acknowledge that there is something that your government could have done to prevent things from getting to this point?

AV: I'm not sure prevent is the issue, but I do think that the response is important and we have to do what we've done in Quebec very effectively, which is set up a provincial system that triages it and distributes resources as well as locates families in a balanced way so that communities can absorb them and manage the influx.

RB: Except for you have acknowledged yourself that refugees want to be in Toronto. They want to be in this city. They want to stay together.

AV: Good data will direct where the lion's share of that money should go. So when the city and the province -- the missing voice in this conversation of course is the province and the election hasn't helped issues in Ontario. And we expect the Ontario government to behave like Canadians always do and Torontonians do. You know when somebody needs help, you don't ask where they're from. You help them and then you figure out how to how to best respond to their circumstance. But the reality is this, is that the exact system we set up in Quebec -- which has been very effective -- the exact system which has also helped us stemmed the flow of migrants.

RB: Sorry, what do you mean the system in Quebec has been effective because they have shut down their shelters to new immigrants.

AV: No. They haven't shut down shelters. What they've done is the provincial system with federal resources that triages, redistributes, takes the pressure off of areas where migrants are collecting and it's come back into balance.

RB: Mr. Vaughan, just last question: John Tory has said that Toronto is a welcoming city, yet he's also warning about community centres having to shut down, summer camps being cancelled to make way for emergency shelters. I mean at what point do you worry that this might actually stoke anti-refugee sentiments?

AV: Look, I've been worried since October that the crisis in shelter system in Toronto is putting vulnerable people in precarious places. That has been a front and centre worry of our government and of the work I do representing the constituents I represent in Toronto. It's not just refugees. It's also a whole group of other populations in the Toronto shelter system. The status quo is not sustainable and I've not been defending the status quo by any iota. We need to get new federal resources into housing. That's the national housing strategy.

RB: But do you worry that this could backfire?

AV: I have a great deal of faith in Canadians but I also know that Canadians expect their governments to work together and deliver the resources.

RB: Mr. Vaughan, thank you very much for your time.

AV: Thank you.

RB: Okay. Bye-bye.

JD: Adam Vaughan is a Toronto Liberal Member of Parliament. We reached him in Toronto.

THAILAND CAVES=

Guest: Tulip Blauw

JD: They've been missing since Saturday afternoon. Twelve boys and their soccer coach are believed to be trapped in a flooded cave system in northern Thailand. Hundreds of people have joined the search. Despite rising water levels and a lack of food and oxygen, rescue operations do continue and officials say that there are encouraging signs of life. Tulip Blauw is a journalist with Spring News in Thailand. We reached her earlier today near the caves in Mae Sai.

RB: Tulip, how optimistic are the rescuers that the boys are still alive?

TULIP BLAUW: Everybody has been very optimistic and I have to say very hopeful because they have seen hand marks and foot track. So they think that's a good sign. And we learned that these kids has been in the cave before so they kind of know their way around it somewhat. So they hope that the kids stay hopeful and alert and witty enough to save themselves.

RB: How did this happen? I mean is the cave an area where people would go to explore or tell us a little bit about it.

TB: My team interviewed one of the locals this morning. He's 30-something and he has been lost in that cave before for five hours when he was a teenager. And he said because there is nothing much to do around here for teenager and kids, little children, so it's just something they do. A little expedition. And this group of kids, they're actually in the same junior soccer team and they just went in there together right after the soccer practice on Saturday.

RB: Along with their coach as well.

TB: Along with their coach. Yes.

RB: And do we know how they became trapped in the first place?

TB: They walk in there when it's still dry. This cave is actually known for being flood when it has been raining really hard in the past three, four days. They went in there when it was really dry but then when it rained, it got flooded and if they cannot come out in time, they just have to keep walking to the same direction of the current, which is inside to some airpocket or chamber.

RB: Are there holes in the cave? I mean would they be able to get air?

TB: They found some opening on top, some hole. But we are not sure whether that hole connect to the chamber that we hope that they're trapped in. So they have been dropping some snacks and some note, but we have no idea whether that reached them or not.

RB: You said about the handprints and the footprints, but have rescuers heard any noise at all?

TB: No, no. They haven't. They haven't heard any noise. Because there are some parts totally flood, you will have to use a diver to go in there. So when it's totally flood, it's blocked out all the sound.

RB: And I understand that rescuers are also trying to pump out water from that cave right now.

TB: Yes. They have been doing that since yesterday night, whole night. But from what I heard from the official that has been inside, the water level is not any lower.

RB: What about the scene outside the cave? Can you describe that for us? Tell us what it looks like and who is there.

TB: Right now they don't allow any spectators inside the area. They only allow media, officials and family and that's a lot of people already. Everybody, like I said very hopeful and they say all the positive things. They don't want to jinx it, I guess. And everybody just pitch in as much as they can. We have teams from all over the country. We have SEAL, which is the head of the whole rescue operation and we have a diver from the police department and we have in every special unit possible in here right now.

RB: I can't imagine what the families must be feeling, just waiting for any kind of news. What have they said to you?

TB: They just pray and hope that the rescue team will find their children very soon. And they have been very patient, just sit there and get updates from the officials. It's stressful but they're hopeful.

RB: And they have been building little makeshift shrines. Tell us about those.

TB: Yes. Yes. There's actually a shrine before the entrance of the cave. It's Asian culture to believe that there is a spirit taking care of the place. So there's already a shrine there and they make some offerings. They just killed a chicken as an offering. And they have been doing some prayer and we see people from different religions come in and do some kind of ceremony. Hopefully that it will bring some good luck to the rescue team and to the kids.

RB: How do those families, how do they seem to you?

TB: They seem very tired. They look really stressful. They just look sad and tired most of the time. One of them faint today and have to be sent to the hospital. I can't imagine. They probably can't eat or anything like that. And media try to get to them and some of them talk, but some of them just doesn't want to have anything to do with anybody.

RB: This was day three today since these boys have been missing. I mean how much longer do rescuers think that they can hold on?

TB: Today, they sent another special team for a three-day expedition to Phi a new opening of the cave around the mountain. So at least we have this three-day window for sure. But for the SEAL team, they want to make sure that they reach that important place, the dry place in the cave today. So hopefully we get something, we get some good news by tomorrow. They worked throughout the night. They actually call off the operation at 6 p.m. Their chief call off the operation, but then they say they just want to keep going.

RB: Thank you very much Tulip, for your time today.

TB: You're welcome.

RB: Bye-bye.

TB: Bye.

JD: Tulip Blauw is a journalist with Spring News. We reached her in Mae Sai, Thailand earlier today.

[Music: Bridge]

JD: This week in Regina, witnesses are testifying at a hearing on policing. This is part of the second phase of the national inquiry into missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. Yesterday the first person to speak was RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki. She used the opportunity to issue an apology and vowed to do better.

SOUNDCLIP

This week, the national inquiry is hearing from the police for the first time. I want to take this opportunity to acknowledge the families of missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. Thank you so much for having the courage to speak up about the injustices you've experienced and the times that you've felt disrespected, ignored or neglected by the RCMP. On behalf of myself and my organization, I'm truly sorry for the loss of your loved ones and the pain that this has caused you, your families and your communities. I'm sorry that for too many of you, the RCMP was not the police service that it needed to be during this terrible time in your life. It is very clear to me that the RCMP could have done better. And I promise to you we will do better. You're entitled to nothing less than our best work in your communities. I believe it's never too late to do the right thing and I want this apology to be just one more step in the RCMP's commitment to reconciliation. Although we're not the only solution to the issues of violence against Indigenous women, girls, the two-spirited LGBTQ community, we know we have a large role to play when it comes to preventing this violence and bringing perpetrators to justice.

JD: RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki speaking yesterday at a hearing on policing for the national inquiry into missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls.

[Music: Bridge]

SURREY PEACOCKS

Guest: Ryan Cragg

JD: In Surrey, British Columbia last night, council approved a motion that will make some residents of the Sullivan Heights neighbourhood very happy and others -- human and avian -- very unhappy. The city says it plans to gradually remove dozens of peacocks and peahens that have called the area home for years, which is not a welcome move as far as the peafowl fans are concerned. But for homeowners like Ryan Cragg, it is a relief. He was at the meeting last night. We reached him in Surrey. But first, here's what his neighbour says about the birds.

SOUNDCLIP

It's morning, five o'clock.

[Sound: Birds squawking]

And look at the noise. How are we going to sleep?

RB: Mr. Cragg, that's a video of your neighbour. How hard has it been for you to get some sleep?

RYAN CRAGG: It's certainly a problem nowadays when it's a lot warmer. They're doing that earlier and earlier in the morning. I'm fortunate enough to live further away from the roost than my neighbour does, so closing my window does help. But for my neighbour, he's far too close for the closing the window to make any difference whatsoever.

RB: How would you describe the sound they make?

RC: It sounds very much like a screaming child or a tortured cat. I found that once I had children, you really sort of key into that sound. It wakes you up. And when it sounds like one of your kids is being killed, it certainly gets your heart pounding in the morning.

RB: Do give us a little bit of background here. How did all these peacocks get into Surrey in the first place?

RC: To be perfectly honest, no one seems to know for sure. There is people who say that they've been here for 40 years. People say they've been here for 50 years. Can't find any hard evidence of that. I know that there were a lot of farms in the area once upon a time. There were peacocks on those farms. As to whether or not those are the peacocks that are now these peacocks, it's difficult to say. All I know for sure is that they've been there for as long as I've been in the neighbourhood and I moved there in 2008.

RB: I understand these peacocks have rather divided the neighbourhood.

RC: Yes. There are people who, when hearing about the plights of my neighbours and how bad it is for them, they don't really care because the peacocks are pretty and it certainly is nice to see them when you're out walking the dog. When we first heard voicing our concerns about it, we were told on no uncertain terms that we should probably just move. That kind of response from the neighbours, it certainly splits a neighbourhood.

RB: So you're on the anti-peacock side.

RC: I am on the anti-peacock side, yes.

RB: What have you got against peacocks?

RC: Well, maybe anti-peacock is too harsh a statement. I am very pro-sleep. Also in addition to dealing with the unreasonable amounts of noise, there is also damage to our homes and vehicles. And also we can't use our yards because of all the peafowl droppings. My kids never play in my backyard.

RB: I understand you actually opened the door to your house this morning. What did you see?

RC: Oh yes. There was a giant peacock turd right on my front mat. They look like little dog turds but you know once you know what they look like, you realize that they are in fact peacock droppings.

RB: So what do you say to your neighbours when you meet the pro-peacock side and they say why can't we just coexist, that these are part of nature and that it's humans who are the problem?

RC: The thing is that they're not part of the nature of this area. They're an introduced species. They're not from here. They only survive here because people are taking care of them. People are feeding them, giving them shelter during the winter. It's not part of the nature of this area. And why do they get the special consideration compared to all the natural animals that we do have in the area? Ultimately, I don't like it when people choose peacocks over the people.

RB: So what is the city's plan to deal with them then?

RC: The city's plan to deal with them -- and it's fairly comprehensive -- they have a plan to put up -- first of all, educate the people in the area that you can't house them yourself. You're not allowed to feed them. So they want to make sure that people stop artificially inflating the number of peacocks by providing them shelter and food. They also want to capture the peafowl. They want to put up traps in public areas and on owner's request, you can request a trap to put on your own private property. With those humane traps, once the peacock is captured, contact the city and they'll move to the animal -- I can't remember the name of it now -- some animal group in Surrey that would then take possession of the peacocks. The city of Surrey has been compiling a list of people who are interested in taking some of the peacocks and move them out of the area.

RB: Is there any part of you at all that will be sad to see them go?

RC: If the numbers hadn't got as out of hand as they had, maybe. But now I have been putting up with this for a very long time and I'll be quite happy to see them gone.

RB: Do your children hate peacocks too?

RC: Seeing that the peacocks do wake them up every morning, in addition to myself and need to close my bedroom window every morning after being woken up, my children have to do the same thing. My children are not fans of the peacocks.

RB: Mr. Cragg, thank you very much.

RC: Thank you very much, Robyn.

RB: Bye-bye.

RC: Bye.

JD: We reached Ryan Cragg in Surrey, British Columbia.

Part 2: Surfer Rescue, London Museum Skeleton

SURFER RESCUE

Guest: Benjamin Spiridonov

JD: Benjamin Spiridonov would rather not have a cough, but he's glad he's alive to be coughing. Earlier this month, he was surfing on the St. Lawrence River in Montreal when he was swept away by the current. He lost consciousness and he might not have regained it, except for some people on the water that day who helped rescue him. We reached Benjamin Spiridonov in Montreal.

RB: Mr. Spiridonov, give us a description of the area you were surfing in that day.

BS: It's a very popular place in Montreal. It's only one spot with a big wave. It's called Habitat 67.

RB: And how powerful is the water there?

BS: It's powerful that it can press you down on the bottom of the river even with your surfboard. And a lot of accidents, even with the professional swimmers. Everybody can tell it's very, very rough waters.

RB: Had you surfed there before?

BS: Absolutely.

RB: Never any problems.

JD: No. Never. That's the problem. I tried to send a message to the guys. We've been there many times. We're getting cocky. We're getting too relaxed. We had a good time. But the danger is still there. And you always have to be visual, visual for each other. We usually go in the water if you see somebody in trouble, we always do. But this time, guys didn't react fast enough and maybe they didn't see me, I don't know. But when the leash snapped from my board and I couldn't come back to my board because I was sunk right away under water and pressure, like by water pressure on the bottom. It took me a couple seconds to fight a couple times. But the water pool, the famous in Montreal, it keep going.

RB: You mention the leash on your board breaking. How quickly did you get pulled under the water?

BS: Two seconds. I didn't have a chance. I was right after wave because I was surfing. And I have to give the next person space, right? So we're kind of doing one after another. So I was surfing, I have my fun, you know. I bail out, give the other person space. So I was right next to that in the water pool. So we do grab the [unintelligible] as soon as possible, you're back to your board and you paddle back to the shore to the current. So as soon I got in the water, I pulled the leash and it snapped. And that moment, I was already right on the water pool and it just sucked me in.

RB: What did that feel like?

BS: Go on the bottom of the bus and take something heavy on both of you. That's how it feels.

RB: What was the last thing you remember before you passed out?

BS: I remember -- I saw I was already almost over one kilometre away from the wave. The current brought me to Montreal, Old Montreal, downtown, like a port of Montreal. And I saw the boats and I saw people on the shore. And then I start telling them come on dudes, call for help. I feeling I'm getting out of energy. So I saw the boat and I saw the guy saw me. So I kind of was hoping that they're going to be on time to get me out. Then I pass out. Next I remember Coast Guard open my eye, put the light in my eyes, and checking on me if I'm alive and stuff. Only in hospital. I recognized that the time between I saw the board last thing and I passed out and the Coast Guard, it was a massive almost eight minutes fight for my life by the people who saved me.

RB: What did you learn about how you were saved?

BS: I learned the guys took the risk. There's a [unintelligible] on the jet ski. When he saw my hand sticking out because as a diver, you always learn that you have to put your hand out so people can see you. So they jumped in the water and they tried to pull me out. By the time the little boat that I saw, finally the guy came in, a police officer. His name is Simon. So when they put me in the boat, I had no heartbeat, no breathing. So they started CPR. And as the policeman Simon described, he said it took him around four minutes to revive me.

RB: So there were two people on jet skis who came and saved you.

BS: A couple, yeah.

RB: A couple.

BS: So basically [unintelligible] it was like my last chance to be alive or come back to life, I would say. And Simon was muscle power to push in that water and blood circulation in my system. So after four minutes death, I have no brain damage and anything. I mean, as much I had before, you know.

RB: You met that police officer after. What happened?

BS: I met all of them after. I met them a week after I recovered. They all been crying. For them it was massive shock because I didn't realize I was dead completely. Cos when you're dead, you don't feel it. They actually were fighting with my dead body to try to bring back my body.

RB: Were you wearing a life jacket at the time?

BS: We don't wear a life jacket when we're surfing because your life jacket is your board.

RB: Are you going to start wearing a life jacket now?

BS: Well, I wore the Plan B. It's called inflatable belt. So if anything goes wrong, any disconnection, anything in danger, I have my Plan B.

RB: When are you going to go surfing again?

BS: I went surfing yesterday.

RB: You've already been surfing again?

BS: Wind surfing. The local crew, I told them that listen, after interview, I want to go on the water and they didn't believe. So they went with me on the shore. They did some footage, me windsurfing. But surfing as a surf, doctor said if you go somewhere in the ocean, you're okay to go, but not in the freshwater river because when you're windsurfing, you're on the board standing. But when you're surfing, you're often lying down in the boat, right, so you're inhaling a lot of fumes from the river. So he doesn't want me to go for maybe a couple weeks. Just recover first.

RB: You can still hear the cough in your voice obviously. Why was it so important for you to get back on a surfboard again?

BS: Because that's what we do. That's the part of the life. That's the thrill and that's the, I don't know. That's what I do.

RB: Mr. Spiridonov, thank you very much for your time. Glad to hear you're okay.

BS: My pleasure, guys.

RB: We reached surfer Benjamin Spiridonov in Montreal.

[Music: Bridge]

JD: Taking 26 lives, British Columbia polygamist Winston Blackmore will be put under house arrest for six months. James Oler will get three months. A judge in Cranbrook handed down the sentences today after the two men were convicted in July of last year. The former bishops in the fundamentalist Mormon community in Bountiful tried to argue that the Canadian law against polygamy infringed on their Charter rights to freedom of expression and religion. That argument failed. Jane Blackmore was just 18 years old when she became the first of Mr. Blackmore's more than two dozen brides. She left Bountiful in 2003 and testified against him at his polygamy trial. Back in March, Carol spoke with Ms. Blackmore after the B.C. Supreme Court upheld her ex-husband's conviction. Here's part of that conversation from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

JANE BLACKMORE: I was subpoenaed. But I felt like it was important to speak my truth, and I was convinced many years ago that I didn't believe in what was going on, and felt it was wrong. Many people, especially women and children, were being hurt. And I feel like it needs to be stopped.

CO: And how difficult was that for you to testify — to speak truth to that?

JB: It was extremely difficult. Yeah, I’ve done many difficult things in my life — that was among them for sure.

CO: What was the big motivator?

B: During my life, I've been in a position where I have the confidence and the responsibility of caring for woman. And during my time in the community, I felt like my hands were tied. I could see many difficult situations women were in, and in the position, I was with being the first wife of the leader of the community, and caregiver for many women in the community, I didn't feel like I could protect them. I tried on many occasions to speak out for them. I was never successful in making a difference and as much a difference as I felt I wanted to see, so yeah.

CO: So you did it for them. You did it for those women that you couldn't help for so many years — all the other wives of your former partner. You did for them?

JB: I felt like I was doing it for them, and I was doing it for me, and doing it for my daughters, my sons. I couldn't live that way, obviously, because I did leave and make a different life for myself. But I did what I felt I needed to do.

JD: From our archives, that was Jane Blackmore on this program this past March. Today, a judge in British Columbia sentenced her ex-husband Winston Blackmore to six months of house arrest for practicing polygamy.

[Music: Bridge]

London Museum Skeleton

Guest: Thomas Muinzer

JD: The bones of an 18th-century man may soon be allowed to leave a place they were never supposed to be. For more than 200 years, the skeleton of the Irish Giant Charles Byrne has been the prized specimen on display at the Hunterian Museum in London, U.K., in spite of Mr. Byrne's wishes, which were to be buried at sea. For years, law professor Thomas Muinzer has campaigned for the museum to take the bones off display to no avail. Until now. The museum is closed for renovations until 2020 and when it reopens, it will likely be without those giant bones. We reached Thomas Muinzer in Dundee, Scotland.

RB: Mr. Muinzer, just how giant was Charles Byrne?

THOMAS MUINZER: Charles Byrne was around seven-feet-six to seven-feet-seven tall, although given that he was a showman in his lifetime, he was billed at around eight feel tall, eight-feet-two, and even as tall as eight-feet-four. So there was a bit of embellishment and theatricality added around the size aspect.

RB: You said he was a showman. Tell us a little bit more about his life.

TM: Well, he grew up in what is present-day northern Ireland and he shot up in his early teens to a prodigious height because he suffered from gigantism, which is a malfunction if you like of a pituitary gland at the base of the brain. So he had an excessive amount of growth hormones. Of course back in those days, the condition wasn't medically understood as it is now and he settled in London when he was heading around 20 years old and became a great celebrity. He would exhibit himself as a human curiosity. You would pay some money to spend time with him, to see him and he was reported on in the papers and was a big hit really throughout London. And sadly then he passes away at the age of 22. So it was a short life, but it was a very lively, dramatic, adventurous life.

RB: And when he passed away, he specifically had some instructions. What were those instructions?

TM: Well, back in those days, there was a culture in the U.K. where resurrectionists thrived. And resurrectionists -- that's the name given to dodgy fellows who would dig up the remains of the dead from graveyards and suchlike and sell the remains onto the surgical community because surgeons were always seeking and in pursuit of cadavers to work on, to research, even to demonstrate anatomical study to their students. So there was this illicit trade in grave snatching and Charles was rightly afraid that if he was buried in the ground being the celebrity that he was and knowing as he did that the surgical community wanted to get a hold of his corpse and study him and so forth. Of course if you're buried at sea, you can't be dug up in the way that you can if you're in the earth. So as he was dying in the Charing Cross area of London where he was living, he said to his pals, look fellows, when I pass away, take me to the coast, weigh my coffin down and bury me at sea. And in fact, his friends did that. They took him to Margate, which is a little town on the English coast. But they stopped overnight and as they did, rested up and probably had a few drinks and a bite to eat and so on. A dodgy undertaker in the pay of an eminent surgeon successfully managed to secretly switch the corpse of Charles Byrne for dead weight. And so when the coffin was buried in Margate at the coast -- it was buried, it was reported on in the papers -- Charles was not in there.

RB: But now he is in this museum in London. So how did that come to happen?

TM: That's right. The eminent surgeon that procured his remains, John Hunter, passed away himself eventually and his extensive specimen collection -- which is an important collection of anatomical items including the skeleton of Charles Byrne -- was granted to the Royal College of Surgeons. They have their central buildings in London and within in that little college is the Hunterian Museum. The memorial museum of John Hunter. And the centrepiece of that public museum is the skeleton of Charles Byrne.

RB: And that upsets you. How come?

TM: Well, there's a sadness I think underlying that dramatic story. In effect, the remains of Charles Byrne are now on display publicly in the memorial museum to the very person who stole his remains. There is a perverse irony there and it's quite tragic.

RB: The museum has said that his bones have provided an important role in advancing research on gigantism. Is that not a point to take into consideration?

TM: That's a good point. It's a fair point. It's wonderful that the bones have been useful to research. They have in terms of well, in several ways, but particularly through some DNA tracing that has proven very valuable. But that argument only goes so far. First off, if there is still scientific benefit to be gleaned from those remains, that doesn't make it okay to display those remains in the memorial museum. However, in terms of the scientific argument itself, because we now have a full DNA record from the burned skeleton, because we have extensive medical studies of that skeleton now, because we have the ability to make an exact replica of the skeleton, because we have patients on record who would come forward under the principle of informed consent to donate their remains -- in other words, patients with the same condition that Charles had -- gigantism, and offering to donate their remains, there's just no scientific case now for the retention of those remains.

RB: What has the museum said when you give them that argument?

TM: The museum has consistently -- when it does respond to the argument -- fallen back on the idea that there is educational value to the remains and scientific benefits. As I said, the scientific benefit doesn't validate the display and it doesn't hold enough water to prevent the burial at this stage.

RB: You've become part of this group to basically free Charles Byrne, to give him the burial that he wished for. The question is though why is this so important to you?

TM: It's such a moving story. I find it moving personally. I'm from a place that's not too far from where Charles was from. I've been heavily involved in researching his life, his story and it fascinates me and I suppose as a human being, as an individual, the further you go into that story, the more perhaps engaged you become with it. And there's a sense of social justice around the issue for me that is particularly important to me.

RB: Good to talk to you. Thanks so much for your time.

TM: Thank you.

RB: Bye-bye.

JD: We reached law professor Thomas Muinzer in Dundee, Scotland.

[Music: Bridge].

JD: We put out the call and you called us back. Last night we gently requested that you call our talkback line. I mean it's been forever since we heard your voice. Would it kill you to pick up a phone? I know you're busy. I'm sorry. Right? But apparently we aren't the only ones who noticed the silence in our inbox. Here is a call to talkback after our on air plea.

SOUNDCLIP

As It Happens, it has been about six months already that I have been thinking why is there never any talkback phone messages played on As It Happens? By the way, this is Christina Lopez calling from Winnipeg, Manitoba. I'm calling you from my landline. I listen to you on my dusty old radio plugged into a wall outlet. Thanks. Bye-bye.

JD: No, no. Thank you, Christina Lopez from Winnipeg. Maybe now is a good time to mention that As It Happens is going to be -- well, we're gonna be kicking off our 50th season in the fall. We don't -- you don't have to get us anything. A bottle of wine. Whatever. Anyway. But it is going to be our golden anniversary and since we are a radio show, I will remind you that silence for us is actually not golden. There are all kinds of ways you can reach us. Our talkback number: 416-205-5687. Write it down. And if you're using a landline, it feels like well, like you may as well be using a passenger pigeon. You can also contact us anytime on Twitter or Facebook. Both of those CBCAsItHappens, and our email aih@cbc.ca.

[Music: Bridge]

JD: If you are restoring a 16th-century statue of St. George fighting the dragon, how do you paint the saint's face? Do you go with determined but afraid as if George is saying I must vanquish thee despite my fear? Or do you go with that expression of righteous anger, as if he's saying beast with a pure heart and a flashing sword, I cleave thy gross face? Or do you go with baffled and disoriented as if he's saying [groans] I had a little wine. It was a lot of wine. Hold still. It's a trick question, you see. The answer is one should never restore a 16th century statue of St. George fighting the dragon. Unfortunately however, whoever agreed to freshen it up a little ignored that and went with the third option: confused, probably hammered. That statue sits in a chapel in Estella, Spain. It has for half a millennium. And to be fair, the original was faded. It was chipped. And St. George's face wasn't exactly inspired. He already did look as if he had a -- well, he was going to tell the dragon he had a cold. Maybe they could reschedule. Still, this kind of restoration requires more than just a can-do attitude, doesn't it? As Estella's mayor Koldo Leoz told The Guardian, quote: "This is an expert job. It should have been done by experts." Instead he says, the chapel just quote: "gave the job to a local handicrafts teacher." Unquote. Without telling him, without telling anyone in government. And the result is a slightly cockeyed, pink-faced St. George -- a guy that you would think twice about asking to plunge your toilet, let alone kill a dragon. So I mean whatever. Full marks for effort. But no. And now the only way for the mayor to save face is to get someone else to save face, starting probably with some turpentine.

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June 26, 2018 full episode transcript

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