Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2018

The AIH Transcript for April 3, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight…

CO: Spring into action. In his final report as the special envoy to Myanmar, Bob Rae says that Canada should take a leadership role in the Rohingya crisis and that with monsoon season approaching time is of the essence.

JD: Panic at YouTube headquarters. The offices of the streaming video giant are thrown into chaos by an active shooter — and eyewitnesses describe a surreal afternoon of sudden violence.

CO: The life at the end of the tunnel. A 13-year-old boy spends nearly 12 hours lost in the sewers under Los Angeles — and a city firefighter explains how Jesse Hernandez emerged alive from his ordeal.

JD: Making one thing perfectly clear. AT the Florida High School where 17 people were killed in February students have a new responsibility on their shoulders. For security reasons their backpacks must be transparent.

CO: Seemed like a good Ikea at the time. As a hilarious April Fools joke, a French mayor tells her citizens the Swedish furniture giant is bringing cheap furniture and jobs to their town — which it's not. And now she finds rebuilding trust will require more than an allen key.

JD: And…Thinking small. In 1999 a sci-fi writer predicted we would all have tiny portable computers with cameras that got e-mail. And tonight I assume he's going to apologize for saying such an outlandish silly — oh wait that's my phone to that this. As It Happens: The Tuesday Edition. Radio that guesses he was calling for all hands on tech.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Myanmar: Bob Rae, Sewer Rescue, Smartphone-predicting Star Trek writer

Myanmar: Bob Rae

Guest: Bob Rae

JD: The Rohingya crisis is extremely serious and it is time for Canada to do a lot more about it. That is the conclusion of Bob Rae, who released his final report as special envoy to Myanmar today. Nearly seven hundred thousand Rohingya Muslims have fled Rakhine State to neighbouring Bangladesh, where they are sharing horrific reports of crimes against humanity. The United Nations has called the treatment of Rohingya in Rakhine “a textbook example of ethnic cleansing.” Mr. Rae says Canada should now take a leadership role in response to the crisis. He has made 16 recommendations on how to go about doing that. We reached Bob Rae in Ottawa.

CO: Mr. Rae what kind of a leadership role are you prescribing Canada take for the crisis of the Rohingya?

BOB RAE: Well, I don't think we should see ourselves as sort of the only leader. I think it's just about recognising that in the world we're in, what I call the world without adult supervision, it's important for everybody to step up — and Canada needs to step up more than we have. This is a very serious crisis and it's not getting better quickly.

CO: Step up to do what?

BR: Well, first thing that needs to be done is to deal with the crisis of the condition in the camps. The camps are in are in terrible shape and it will get worse before it gets any better. When the rain comes, which is any week now, we can expect possible epidemics. We've already lost several hundred people to diphtheria. There's been a lot of other problems in the camp in terms of just the sheer physical conditions that we think are going to get worse. And the UN has asked for close to a billion dollars U.S. Countries are being very slow to respond and Canada needs to be one of those countries that responds more quickly and that responds more generously to what needs to happen.

CO: Lets talk about more quickly, because this is one of the issues has been raised. As the special envoy you've been looking at this for months. I'm not reading anything in your report that is new about the conditions that people are in — they're horrendous, they have been horrendous, they're getting more horrendous. Why is this taking so long? Isn't this something you could have recommended months ago?

BR: Well I did. I mean, reports have been coming out for months now on the part of everybody saying how bad the situation is, and my point is it's important now for governments to act in a much more substantial way and that includes Canada, to what is happening and what is not happening.

CO: There Rohingya Human Rights Network says that your appointment was, they say, a way for Prime Minister Trudeau to delay taking leadership to help the Rohingya, and thereby neglecting Canada's obligation under the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of genocide. How do you respond to that?

BR: I would respond to it simply by saying I don't think that any of that is true. And if they have a concern about Mr. Trudeau's position they should ask it directly of him. But in terms of what does my appointment signify I don't think that's a fair a fair comment.

CO: The recommendations you're making are dealing with the humanitarian crisis that exists, and this is something else people are suggesting, that this is not a crisis like an earthquake or a flood. This is a largely politically and militarily — entirely made by politics and the military. Tell us a bit about what you're addressing in regards to the political issues that are around this crisis?

BR: Well, that's a substantial part of my report, Carol. And it's easy to describe the problems that then the question is what actually can we do about it. Myanmar is not currently a signatory to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. So we have to work hard at gathering evidence in the worst possible circumstances, and that means systematically gathering information, village by village, example by example, date by date, what has happened, what has taken place. It should have been started a long time ago. There's been a lot of visitors to the camps making comments about what's happened. But we have to make sure that what takes place now is a gathering of evidence that will actually allow us to take the steps that are needed to enforce the law.

CO: And where and how should that be done? Because, as you point out, people are gathering some of this information but they're doing an ad hoc way. We saw what was necessary in former Yugoslavia and Rwanda, where you have to have a very comprehensive network of people on the ground, don't you. So how can that be done in this regard to actually do a thorough investigation into who is culpable for what's happened to these people?

BR: Well, you do it I think by starting where people are living and one of the realities is they're all living in the same place in Bangladesh. So there actually is an opportunity to do it. And you also do it by pulling together all of the various groups that are working and by doing it in a more systematic way. And that process is going to take time.

CO: Is it not possible though to hold some people account that we know have issued orders, as in the military, or people who have not done anything — have not stepped up to their responsibilities like Ang San Suu Kyi and actually hold them accountable now? Do we have to wait till we have something like that on the ground before we can actually start to hold people to account for this?

BR: With the greatest of respect, as they say, you need to have the evidence. And it's all very well to throw names around to say you know who did this or who did that. You have to have evidence. You have to have the law behind you and you have to have a tribunal where you can go to actually hold people responsible who are responsible.

CO: But the Ang San Suu Kyi is an honourary Canadian. Is there nothing that we can do to put pressure on her to try and alleviate the suffering of these people and to prevent more of them from having to flee?

BR: I think it's what we all do together. I think Canada has to do more, as I've said. I think we need to be very direct and very candid with Ang San Suu Kyi as I know for a fact Mr. Trudeau was when he met with her about what we felt needed to be done and what more we felt needed to be done. I think there will be other countries that need to be brought together to work on that front but it's going to take a huge amount of commitment from Canadian governments to spend more, to spend more time and spend more effort in bringing all the efforts of persuasion to bear that we can.

CO: What would success look like in your view? What would it look like?

BR: It would be a political settlement in Myanmar, which would clearly not just lead to a civilian government, but actually produce a civilian government. It would be a clear path to citizenship for the Rohingya population in Myanmar. And it would be a safe, dignified and secure return to their land to, their homes, to their property, to their place — and that places in Rakhine State. And that I think has to continue to be the objective.

CO: And is that are achievable?

BR: It's not easy. I hope it's achievable. I don't think we should be naive about it but you asked me the question what would you what would be the ideal — that would be the ideal. Do we have to settle for less than the ideal? Well, I think we need to make sure we come as close to it as we can.

CO: Mr. Rae, Thank you.

BR: Thank you, Carol.

JD: Bob Rae is Canada's special envoy to Myanmar. Today he issued its final report entitled “Tell them we’re human” What Canada and the world can do about the Rohingya crisis. We reached Bob Rae in Ottawa.

[Music: Ambient Electric Guitar]

YouTube Shooting

Guest:

JD: The offices of YouTube in San Bruno, California are now a crime scene. This afternoon police and emergency workers responded to reports of an active shooter. Witnesses say they heard shots. They shared their stories on Twitter and on television. Here is a YouTube employee describing what happened to CNN.

SOUNDCLIP

YOUTUBE EMPLOYEE: I actually was on a videoconference with someone who was in the building when it happened and we were all suddenly aware of a lot of noises and sounds of people running outside of the room where she was and people screaming. And the person who was in the room on the video conference in the building suddenly became very alarmed and was listening to the sounds and suddenly became very scared and said I have to get out of here. At which point she abruptly left. And we were all in a different building just down the street and we called Google security, who had already been made aware of the incident but wasn't necessarily aware of details and had informed the city police.

REPORTER: And what sounds did you hear? What's that what sounds you hear in the background?

YOUTUBE EMPLOYEE: The sounds were of people running and the sounds of screaming. But it was hard to hear anything else if there was anything you hear at that time.

REPORTER: Can you tell me what kind of security is there at Google headquarters?

YOUTUBE EMPLOYEE: There’s security at all Google headquarters, a physical presence as well other types of security.

REPORTER: What else are you hearing from individuals, from colleagues of yours who work in that building?

YOUTUBE EMPLOYEE: Just a lot of people running away. I think people as soon as whatever started happening with happening people tried to get out of the building as fast as they could. And there's lots of different exit points. So obviously many people were able to do that.

JD: That was an an unnamed YouTube employee describing the scene at YouTube headquarters in San Bruno, California today. Police in San Bruno said they had responded to an active shooter. Shortly after that interview police spoke to the media. Here is San Bruno Police Chief Ed Barberini.

POLICE CHIEF ED BARBERINI: At 12:46 p.m. this afternoon San Bruno Police Department received numerous 911 calls regarding gunshots at the YouTube campus located on Cherry Avenue in our city. San Bruno the police arrived on scene at 12:48 and immediately began a search for a possible shooter or suspect. Upon arrival officers encountered numerous employees fleeing from the building. It was very chaotic, as you can imagine. We did encounter one victim with an apparent gunshot wound towards the front of the business as we arrived. Several minutes later, while conducting a search of the premises, officers located a second individual with a gunshot wound that appears to may have been self-inflicted. We are still working on confirming that. Two additional victims were located several minutes later at an adjacent business. The extent of all of the injuries of our victims is unknown right now. They were all transported for medical care but they are all unknown. So if I missed that we have we have four victims who have all been transported for gunshot related injuries and we have one subjects who deceased inside the building with a self-inflicted wound, that at this time we believe to be the shooter but we're still following up on that.

REPORTER: D oyou have the gender of the shooter?

EB: Yes. I want to clarify that we did locate a victim with a with a, what we believe to be self-inflicted gunshot wound. It’s a female. But the investigation is still ongoing before we can put all the pieces together.

JD: San Bruno, California Police Chief Ed Barberini updating the media about the victims and suspected female shooter at the YouTube headquarters in San Bruno. For the latest on this story go to www.cbcnews.ca.

Sewer Rescue

Guest: Eric Scott

JD: Jesse Hernandez is lucky to be alive. The 13-year-old spent almost 12 hours lost in the Los Angeles sewer system. He was surrounded by toxic waste. He had no way out. More than 100 first responders and sanitation workers spent the night searching for him. Eric Scott is a captain with the Los Angeles Fire Department. We reached him in L.A.

CO: Captain Scott, how did this boy manage to fall into Los Angeles’ the sewer system?

ERIC SCOTT: Well, that's under active investigation to really determine exactly what the surrounding circumstances were to lead young Jesse Hernandez into the sewer pipe system. But it was just before 5pm on Easter Sunday that we started to get reports of a boy that was reportedly fallen into a drainage ditch in Griffith Park. That's all we knew.

CO: And was there a big hole there? Was there is some — how could he — how could that happen? How could a child be playing in a park and end up falling into this toxic system?

ES: Well, when we got on scene there was actually a small concrete building, I would say maybe 20 feet by 20 feet, and it had some exterior stairs going up to the rooftop. And that's where bystanders had said some of the kids were playing when a portion of that roof had broken away, large enough that 13-year-old Jesse plunged approximately 25 feet down and was swept away into that four foot pipe.

CO: And when you realized that, when everyone was talking about it trying to figure out what to do, what was going through your mind? How do you find a boy in that system?

ES: You're absolutely right. That was our question. There were multiple challenges because at that time we didn't know what kind of pipe it was. Was it water or was it sewage? Does it go to the river? How big is it?

CO: And so many reasons to believe that a boy could not survive down there for very long, if at all.

ES: Yes, that was a concern and as time went on that became a bigger concern with every minute.

CO: And then when you finally narrowed it down to where you thought it was, tell us about the video camera that you used?

ES: Well, that was part of the inventive part. At the onset, again, we could not get down into this pipe and see where he was or what sort of conditions we were dealing with. So our urban search and rescue, those are confined space specialists, they ran to their truck full of different tools grabbed a video camera, grabbed a flotation device, attached the camera to the device. It was kind of like a boogie board type flotation device, put a 300-foot rope on it, slowly lowered it down into 25-feet down where he went, splashed it on the water and they were able to allow it to move with the current downstream. Now that gave us rudimentary eyes inside the tunnel — dark slippery conditions, sewage flowing through it. And we were able to let that line out slowly to the end, 300 feet, problem was there was no Jesse. So we had to kind of go to Plan B.

CO: And that was?

ES: At that point we needed to take this operation, which at least gave us eyes on, and move it downstream a little farther to an opening we found and continue the process. And we did determine that there was a third party agency that has professional cameras that do exactly this. They go inside these pipelines. They can crawl on the bottom as well as float on the top on pontoons, they have lights, and that's what most of our night operations were.

CO: And what were the clues? You finally saw some signs of this boy's existence down there, what were they?

ES: First we were able to cordon an area we felt he was in. And we knew an area that he couldn't go past that we knew where he started. And that was just over a mile long. So that's a big area 6,400 linear feet to be exact. Four o'clock yesterday morning was that time period you're speaking of. And it was an emotional time period because what that camera showed is fingerprints going along the side of the wall — kind of almost looked like he was clawing his way out perhaps — we didn't know — or a shoulder leaning against it looked like in another area. To be honest everyone's heart sank at that point because then we had confirmation that Jesse was in this system. And at that time it was ten hours into it and we knew every minute that passed, every hour that went on, you tend to have a less viable victim — the chance of survival rapidly diminishes. So that was a time period where our hearts kind of sank but the beautiful thing was that no one gave up. And they were able to continue those operations of lowering those cameras that were sophisticated and we went over to one by the 134 freeway where it meets up the Five freeway and as they opened up that hatch to put down a camera to look for him, rather instead he was down looking up at us.

CO: Oh my gosh, looking right — he was there right below?

ES: Our jaws dropped. At that point the Bureau of Sanitation workers were right there opening the hatch. They quickly grabbed a thick hose off the front of their vehicle that was wrapped around kind of a winch, lowered that to him, and everybody helped pull him out to safety. And he was yelling for help when he was down there as soon as he saw that hatch open. So at that point we knew that he was alive and second thing he asked for was a cell phone and he wanted to call his mother. And you could only imagine what that mother must have felt when she heard her son's voice on the phone after 12 hours of being in this toxic environment. And all that news immediately got back to the command post and there was an overwhelming sense of joy. All these big burly firefighters are holding back their tears, they’re hugging each other because everybody's stuck with it. Everybody on the team did an integral part and it came to a successful conclusion. We knew at that point Jesse was safe.

CO: What a great story. Captain Scott, thank you so much for being there, all of you, and for bringing that boy home. Thank you.

ES: Yes ma'am. You're welcome. Take care.

CO: Bye-bye.

JD: Eric Scott is a captain with the Los Angeles Fire Department. We reached him in L.A.

[Music: Ambient Tones]

Smartphone-predicting Star Trek writer

Guest: David Gerrold

JD: Along with the Simpsons and Nostradamus, science fiction writer David Gerrold has been proven to have an uncanny ability to predict the future. In 1999 Mr. Gerrold, who is best known for writing the famous Star Trek episode The Trouble with Tribbles, was asked about his predictions for computing. And at the time he prophesied something called the Personal Information Telecommunications Agent — PITA for short. Might have seemed outlandish at the time, you probably have one within reach at this very moment. We reached David Gerrold in Northridge, California.

CO: David, what did you predict the Personal Information Telecommunications Agent, or PITA for short, would be able to do?

DAVIE GERROLD: It was a question of convergence, all these little boxes on my desk — calculator and music player. Why can't these all be in one box? I've been building computers since 1977. With those first computers you had to buy a one card for more memory and another card if you wanted a clock and another card if you wanted a monitor. And all of these things ended up on the motherboard. And over time we saw the chips get smaller faster and smaller and faster. By the time of the late 90s, well even the early 90s, I had a flip phone and I could see how technology was shrinking. So it seemed kind of obvious to me that eventually everything was going to be in one box and that we would have a way to text and phone and some kind of internet connectivity and listen to music. It just seemed like everything is going to end up in a little box that we can put in our pocket and walk around with.

CO: Called the smartphone.

DG: Right.

CO: So you're saying this in 1999?

DG: Yeah, and I had been saying it for a while, I finally got around to writing it as an article.

CO: You also had another prediction about what this thing that you were predicting was going to happen would ultimately do to us and our lives.

DG: Yes, I had a Motorola StarTAC flip phone very early on when I adopted my son, because I needed the connectivity. I had given my number out to about a dozen people. I had used the phone to make some calls but hadn't received any. And one day I was in a bookstore and my phone started ringing and I took it out of my pocket and it was a wrong number. And I realized I am now carrying around a box in my pocket that anybody anywhere in the world can press a button and annoy me. Eventually we were going to lose our privacy. I received a phone call from my mother who says ‘Come to dinner,’ I said ‘I'd love to. I'm in Philadelphia right now.’ I could be anywhere in the world and here's this electronic leash that people would not know where I am or what I'm doing but they could interrupt me.

CO: But you know this is the late 1990s, we already had the Palm Pilot. What I remember was thinking that in the 90s what we had were these pagers and eventually interactive pagers that I think became BlackBerry eventually, but that people were already being paged all the time. They would stab you in your side because people wore them on their belts and anyone could be found anywhere at any time and dragged back to work or someplace else. So it was already starting to get annoying even by the mid to late 1990s, wasn't it?

DG: Well, yeah but there was the convenience factor. I gave my son a beeper very early on that he was supposed to call me if I needed to hear from him. The beeper was one of the first ways we attached an electronic leash to people.

CO: But the name the Personal Information Telecommunications Agent, or PITA well it is now a ‘Pain In The A’ — and literally because it's in your pocket.

DC: And it vibrates. I missed that one. I didn't realize that we put vibrators in them.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: Or that they'd have clever rings that would go off in concerts — you'd be everywhere and these things have been going off in people’s pants.

DG: Yeah, we assign specific ringtones. I probably shouldn't admit this in public but when my mother was alive the ring tone I had for her was that god awful violent shriek from Psycho — the shower scene. It definitely got my attention. ‘Oh God, there’s mother.’

CO: So you miss her but not her phone calls.

DG: I actually realized I couldn't pick up the phone and talk to her anymore and it feels like this hole in my life. So we depend on our phones. I mean, I'm not anti-technology. It's being able to pick up the phone and call her and say “How are you doing? Are you OK? Is there anything you need? That's one of the ways we connect with people that, if we didn't have the phone, you know, like I'm at the store, can I pick up something for you? If we didn't have that convenience our relationships would be a little harder to maintain.

CO: I can't imagine at this point not having that connection. But I'm also wondering what the future holds. Do you have any predictions for what we're going to be dealing with it say, I guess a few years or ten years?

DG: I just finished an article about what we can expect robots to do but that's 10 maybe 20 years out. And I'm working on an examination of why artificial intelligence is inevitable. And if I can do the short version, it goes back to what a computer is designed to do is to take in data processing and report information. And the more data a computer takes in the more accurate information it can provide and the more services it can provide. And so we are willingly giving up large pieces of data, our privacy, because in exchange we're getting some very useful services. We don't mind telling Google where we are with the GPS because in return it can tell us how to navigate to some place we've never been. That's only going to get more sophisticated.

CO: So more convenience, less privacy, less freedom in a way.

DG: We gave up privacy a long time ago. The minute we attached a telephone — the old landline we were giving somebody permission to ring a bell in our house any time they felt like it.

CO: You're right, David, and that's good to talk to you. Thank you.

DG: Thank you.

CO: Bye.

DG: Bye.

JD: David Gerrold is a science fiction author and a predictor of the future. We reached him in Northridge, California

[Music: Industrial Rhythm]

Part 2: Waterslide Builder Arrest, Parkland Security

Waterslide Builder Arrest

Guest: Brittany Dice

JD: He wanted to be known for creating the world's tallest water slide. Now he is facing a charge of second degree murder. On Monday John Timothy Schooley, the lead designer of a ride called Verruckt, meaning insane, was arrested at a Texas airport. He is being held without bond. A co-owner of the Schlitterbahn, Kansas City waterpark has also been charged with second degree murder. And a former employee faces multiple charges as well. In 2016 a 10-year-old boy was decapitated while hurtling down the Verruckt slide. Investigators now say the men had no experience nor credentials to build a water slide, and that they knew it could seriously injure someone. Brittany Dice was injured on that slide in 2015, a year before Caleb Schwab was killed. We reached Ms. Dice in Cameron, Missouri.

CO: Brittany, first of all, just describe this water slide Verruckt or Insane.

BRITTANY DICE: So we climbed up a set of stairs. Then you get in a three person raft, you have to weigh a certain of weight. And then you go down a big hill and then two smaller hills and then you land a landing pool.

CO: This is something you were keen to do before you went up the slide?

BD: No. So I visited the park June 16, 2015, which was actually my birthday and I was kind of peer pressured, I guess you could say, into riding the slide I didn't want to do it. Of course it's the world's tallest water slide so everyone was talking me into doing it and so I did it. I went down and going down that first initial hill my seatbelt came undone. I became sideways in my seat trying to get my balance and then we came to the second hill and I was thrown up because the raft went airborne. When the raft came back down I was thrown down and that’s I fractured my back.

CO: Oh my gosh. And so this is the last stretch of it. Just describe all the various parts of it that you were unstrapped for.

BD: So you get in the raft and they put this piece of Velcro over you. And that's literally all it is, is a hook and strap, it just Velcros above your shoulder. So when we went down that first hill, that first big drop, that raft started hydroplaning and hitting the sides of the slide. And because we were jolting around so much my seatbelt came undone. So I was trying to get my balance in the raft and by the time I got to where I could sit up we were airborne going up that second hill and my face was like inches from the netting and the metal bars. And so I was I'm strapped the entire ride. After you get off that second hill you go down a little hill and then you go in the landing pool. Our raft didn't stop in the landing pool, it kept going and it smashed into the concrete wall.

CO: Good heavens. And how badly were you injured?

BD: I had three slipped discs in my back.

CO: And what did they say about it? Was there a complaint? Did they apologize? Did anything come of this?

BD: So when I got to the bottom of the slide I told the lifeguard that I was injured. They sent the manager over there and I actually had to be carried to the first aid room. And I got in there and they took two reports, one was an injury report stating what was injured what was hurting, and they took my vitals. And the other one was an incident report where I kept telling them over and over that the raft went airborne, the raft went airborne. Well they had me sign the incident report and the manager walked out with that report and now they can't find it.

CO: Did you know that there had been other injuries at that point?

BD: I did not.

CO: When you heard just, I guess, a year after that in 2016 that this young fellow, this 10-year-old boy Caleb Schwab, was killed —he was decapitated coming down that slide — how did you respond when you learned that?

BD: All I could think of was that raft could have been my raft, back in 2015 that could have been me and my friends that were on that ride. And it's heartbreaking, I mean, as a mom you hear that a child lost their life on a slide that you were injured and then all the news releasing the indictment and him hiding all the evidence of the slide malfunctioning and finding out that the brakes went out on this slide two days before he passed away. It's just awful.

CO: And it seems to be where the injury happened, where he where he was killed, was around this netting and the metal bars. Can you describe that?

BD: Yes. So when you go down the slide, above you are these metal hoops that connect to the slide and connected to the hoops is this netting, this mesh netting. When my raft went airborne I was probably two-and-a-half to three inches away from that netting. My face was looking right at those bars and netting. And of course when that raft goes airborne, I mean, you're higher up in the air than you should be, so you’re very, very close to those bars and netting.

CO: And that's what happened to Caleb Schwab?

BD: Yes.

CO: What can you tell us about the designer of this ride, John Timothy Schooley, who is I understand now facing charges of second degree murder, among other things?

BD: So him and Henry were both the designers of this slide. They were so money hungry and they wanted to get this slide open and they had to pass their opening date two to three times I believe, they had to postpone it because the rafts were going overboard. I mean, they were just flying off the slide.

CO: And you mentioned Henry, this is Jeffrey Henry, and he's co-owner of this Schlitterbahn Waterpark and Resorts. You mentioned in the indictment accusing Henry of making a spur of the moment decision to build this. And the evidence that's coming through is that they didn't know what they were doing, that they had no experience in this.

BD: They had no idea. Yeah, they had fraudulent licenses. They’re are not even license to be an engineer for waterslides. I mean, they had no idea what they were doing when it came to this water slide and unfortunately it led to a 10-year-old’s death and that's something that they're going to have to live with.

CO: And of course these are allegations not yet tested. But a spokesperson for the ride's designer says that the indictment is filled with information that we fully dispute. So it sounds like they're going to mount quite a challenge to this indictment. What do you think it's going to be like to watch?

BD: Well, yeah I'm sure they're going to fight it. They're going to try and plead their case. Maybe the owners can act like they didn't know. I'm not sure, but I mean, when you've got all this evidence looking at you in the face, you've got all these people that were injured and the incident reports are nowhere to be found. I mean, you have some explaining to do. And honestly the brake system went out two days before that little boy died. That waterslide should not have been opened. It should have been closed down until it was properly fixed.

CO: And they were hoping to — in building this — to impress the producers of a program called Travel Channel's Extreme Waterparks series. Do you know if they made it into that show?

BD: They did. They did get on the show and they are in the world that the Book of World Records.

CO: If they had taken your report more seriously after your injury, and others had been injured and also gave reports, if they'd taken that seriously do you think that Caleb Schwab would be dead today?

BD: I do not. I believe that Caleb would be safe and that water slide would have been shut down before he even got to the park.

CO: Brittany, we will be watching this story and I appreciate speaking with you, thank you.

BD: You're welcome.

CO: Bye.

JD: Brittany Dice was injured on Verruckt, the world's tallest water slide, which killed a 10-year-old Caleb Schwab. We reached her in Cameron, Missouri. Today the designer of the waterslide was arrested and faces a second degree murder charge.

[Music: Piano Ballad]

Winnie Mandela Obit

JD: She fought a system that always seemed to fight her right back. But Winnie Madikizela-Mandela proved resilient. As we told you on the program yesterday, One of South Africa's most polarizing anti-apartheid activists died yesterday. This show spoke to her in August of 1985. At the time there were huge anti-apartheid protests in Cape Town outside the prison where her husband, Nelson Mandela, was being held. Former As It Happens host Dennis Trudeau reached Ms. Madikizela-Mandela away from the protests in Johannesburg. She explained why she couldn't be there.

SOUNDCLIP

WINNIE MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have to get permission to travel to Cape Town because I’m a banned and restricted person.

DENNIS TRUDEAU: What's their strategy? Do they intend to make any kind of peaceful protest impossible in South Africa?

WMM: Peaceful protest is absolutely impossible now in today’s South Africa. Every aspect of our lives, everything we do is against the law. This is what we have been trying to explain to the rest of the world. Could you hold on please? I understand my daughter is holding on very urgently from Cape Town.

DT: Very well. We’ll hold on. Please come back on the line if you can Mrs. Mandela.

WMM: Just hold on.

DT: I will.

DT: Hello, Mrs. Mandela. What did your daughter tell you about what was happening in Cape Town?

WMM: Apparently the police, the army is shooting people and there are already several deaths. People are being admitted to the hospital in the hundreds.

DT: Mrs. Mandela, virtually the entire leadership of the movement, the anti-apartheid movement, is now in jail. The government is arresting people every day. What will they do next? Do you have any idea?

WMM: The government we know is a government that believes in violence. And what is going to happen, in fact, is more and more violence and the physical elimination of opposition of apartheid.

DT: Mrs. Mandela Do you ever think you will see your husband released from jail?

WMM: Certainly. I have no doubt about that. The government will be forced to release our leaders, and the government will be compelled to return our leaders who are in exile. And the political situation in the country is such that there is no other way of defusing the present crisis in the country.

DT: Mrs. Mandela, thank you very much for talking to us today.

WMM: My greetings to the Canadians, and thank you so much.

JD: That was Winnie Madikizela-Mandela speaking with former As It Happens host Dennis Trudeau in August of 1985. Ms. Madikizela-Mandela died yesterday. She was 81 years old.

[Music: Ambient Bass Tones]

Parkland Security

Guest:

JD: Some students in Parkland Florida are not too happy about their new backpacks. This week classes resumed at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School after spring break. And new security measures have been put in place in response, of course, to February's school shooting that left 17 people dead. One of the new rules — students are only permitted to carry transparent backpacks. Giuliana Matamoros is a junior at Marjory Stoneman Douglas. She's one of the students who traveled to Washington D.C. for the rally for stricter gun control in late March. We reached her in Coral Springs, Florida.

CO: Giuliana, how do you feel about having to carry this new backpack?

GIULIANA MATAMOROS: I feel silly because we're all just taking it as a joke. We don't feel like it's really doing anything.

CO: And how are you letting the authorities know you think it's a joke.

GM: Well everyone is putting like messages through the clear. Some people are filling it with condoms or tampons, and others are just finding clever ways to say look we need a change. It's just we're finding our own way and putting our voices into our backpacks.

CO: What are they saying is the reason why they think it's useful or necessary to do this?

GM: Many of us heard from teachers that the reason why this was applied was because there were many parents who were afraid to send their kids to school. So the parents just wanted to — it was a solution for the parents so they can feel like their kid is safe at school.

CO: So do you think it's possible to put up with things like that temporarily just to reassure those parents?

GM: Yeah, I think everyone is going to have to. And for however long is going to be we’re all just going to laugh at it because it just it's really dumb.

CO: What are the other new security measures that Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School?

GM: We have the wear our school ID all the time. And that's basically it. I'm ok with it because most of the time you just forget that it's there.

CO: Anything new within the building? Are there are there metal detectors, security barriers or anything?

GM: There's more security and there's like barriers, there's metal barricades that lead you inside the school. I heard that we're going to get metal detectors but not yet.

CO: How do you think you've changed since the shooting at your school?

GM: I'm more involved with like advocating and all activism because it happened so close to home. It determined so much for me. I wasn't clear on what I wanted to do when I got out of high school. I know I was going to go to college and I still want to go to college, but I want to find a job that lets me help other people because I know that makes me feel good. And just being part of this change, this movement makes me feel so much better because I know I'm making good in this world.

CO: You know it's just been fascinating from the point of view of everyone in the world watching what you young people have done — that you have turned something that is so vile and awful and so destructive and turned it into this campaign. The strength that you and your fellow students have shown has just been an inspiration. Are you aware of the world watching you?

GM: Yeah, I am aware of that. There's many times where I have to be reminded. I remind myself and I'm like, I just don't feel like I can be a teen anymore, although I don't let that — I try not to let that bother me. Everyone's watching you and the slightest mistakes and the people who are going against our movement are just gonna use that against you.

CO: And when they do that — because there have been some just very ugly responses, some trolling and also some people very publicly in the media denouncing and try to trying to discredit your movement — what's that been like for you when you see that?

GM: When I see that, usually the way that they try to discredit us is by telling us that we're young and most of us acknowledge that because we know we're young and that's the whole point, we're young and we're making a change and we went through something that no 16, 17, 18-year-old should go through. We just, we understand that we're young. We understand that we don't know all the facts and for them to just attack us, usually it's not on what our goal is, it's usually like on how we say things or how we act. It just shows that they have less character than we do.

CO: You went to D.C. for the march of March For Our Lives. What was that like?

GM: It was an amazing experience. I honestly I wouldn't know what I would do if I didn't go because it's something that I would like to tell my children about. It's just it's a moment that you'll never forget.

CO: Do you think that it will make a difference, that you'll change things in Washington?

GM: Yes, I really believe that we will change stuff.

CO: You said that you don't feel like a teen anymore. Do you feel that you've lost your youth that you've lost these important years of innocence and freedom?

GM: Yeah, because just anything you do can be used against you now. I remember in the beginning once I started getting a large following, I was scared to even retweet something funny because people would just be thinking wow she's having a good time when 17 of her peers died. It's not like that. It's just you try to grasp on those moments that you're laughing. And for people not to understand that really bothers me because we're human too, we're not robots. We went through something tragic we’re gonna feel the feelings that we're feeling and we don't want to be told that we're wrong for it.

CO: Do you think at some point you'll have fun again?

GM: Yeah — this whole process has been fun. It’s kept my mind distracted. With this I’m meeting new people, meeting people from different states and different countries and it's just you get new experiences, you receive all this support. You can't not have fun while doing this, although it's because of a sad situation. And sometimes you get reminded about that and your whole mood turns way down. But then you get picked up again because you're realizing you're not gonna let yourself be sad. You know that they were here they would be doing the same thing right along with you.

CO: Giuliana, you are a remarkable 16-year-old and I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

GM: Thank you for giving me the opportunity.

CO: Take care.

GM: You too.

JD: Giuliana Matamoros is a survivor of the school shooting in Parkland, Florida. We reached her in nearby Coral Springs.

[Music: Trance Bass]

La Voix Paul McCartney

JD: There's a lot of covers on the singing competition show The Voice. The audience loves hearing a new version of an old favorite. And once in a very blue moon so does the original artist. Kelly Bado is a contestant on the Francophone version of the voice — La Voix. And on a recent episode she tackled Let It Be by, of course, the Beatles. And afterwards someone surprising got in touch speaking words of wisdom — Sir Paul McCartney himself. Today Ms. Bado spoke with the CBC's Marcy Markusa.

SOUNDCLIP

KELLY BADO: He says that it was wonderful. Wow what a great performance. He said it was a ninspiring interpretation of his song. That was pretty amazing.

MARCY MARKUSA: The language I have here in the quote is “What a fabulous, emotional and inspiring performance of my song,” as you've just said, “Congratulations to you. You super nailed it.” Paul McCartney told you you nailed his song.

KB: I don't. I really couldn't believe it was him. I really thought maybe, you know, somewhere someone over there. This weekend was high because I couldn't believe that a legend like him would even come across a video from La Voix, which it's French. And on top of that, comment on that and let us know what he thought of our version.

MM: Amazing.

JD: That was Kelly Bado, a contestant on La Voix, speaking with CBC Winnipeg’s Marcy Markusa this morning on Information Radio.

Steven Bochco Obit

JD: In 1992 Steven Bochco was having a hard time pitching a new television show called NYPD Blue. It was unlike anything on air. Plus Mr. Bochco refused to remove some unsavoury words from the dialogue. As one former ABC executive recalled in Variety, Mr. Bochco put it bluntly for the head broadcast standards and practices insisting quote “I've got no show if I can't say scumbag.” That sounds pretty tame now. But in the early 90s even cop shows played it safe. There was a formula to follow. Steven Bochco broke that formula. On Sunday the legendary television writer and producer and creator died. He was 74 years old. In addition to NYPD Blue, which went on to run for 12 seasons, Mr. Bochco created hit shows like L.A. Law and the groundbreaking Hill Street Blues. His characters were complicated, their lives overlapped in multiple narratives that often reference previous episodes or foreshadowed what was to come. It was a bold approach and it was one that helped usher in new formats of serialized shows. As he told The Associated Press in 2016 quote “That's what I always thought of myself doing in the context of TV. Craft a show that over time would have a memory,” unquote. From 1985 here is Steven Bochco in conversation with CBC Winnipeg’s Jack Farr about Hill Street Blues and his aggressive approach to programming.

SOUNDCLIP

STEVEN BOCHCO: What are you going to do sacrifice the hour? I don't think so. I think you have to be aggressive. I think you have to say — if I'm in NBC I have to acknowledge the fact that Murder She Wrote is a strong show. We know that particularly in dense viewing hours there is ample room in the same hour for two shows to succeed. I think Knots Landing and Hill Street is a clear case in point. Knots Landing beats Hill Street Blues almost on a weekly basis during prime time, you know first-run season. Nevertheless, both shows reside happily in the top 20.

JACK FARR: I've read something interesting about Hill Street, I don't know if it was in one of those gossip magazines but the demographics of Hill Street, although their absolute numbers are not quite as high as Knots Landing, as far as advertiser concerned the Hill Street demographics are better. Is are any truth in that?

SB: Yes, I think so. The demographics of Hill Street are the most highly desirable you could be wrong for a television show, because it appeals to the, well I guess for lack of a better word, you know the yuppie segment of the population.

JF: And they got the bucks.

SB: They sure do.

JD: From 1985 that was television writer, producer and creator Steven Bochco in conversation with CBC Winnipeg’s Jack Farr, host of The Radio Show. Steven Bochco died Sunday. He was 74 years old.

[Music: Ambient Guitar Plucks]

Part 3: Israel Migrants: Update, Russian Trolls Hacked

Israel Migrants: Update

Guest: Sharren Haskel

JD: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gave a glimmer of hope to tens of thousands of African asylum seekers in Israel yesterday. He said he had reached a deal that would see 16,000 of them resettled to Western countries like Canada. Others would be allowed to stay in Israel. But then just a few hours later he changed his tune and abruptly put that plan on hold. Sharren Haskel is a member of the Knesset with the Likud Party. We reached her in Kfar Saba, Israel.

CO: Ms. Haskel, first this deal was on, now it's off. What explains your prime minister's flip-flop?

SHARREN HASKEL: Well, it's basically being more open to hear what the Israeli public is thinking about this kind of agreement. And also the leaders, I mean, as representatives of the Knesset we, you know, we weren't very happy with this agreement and we're very grateful that the Prime Minister took it into consideration and reconsidered the offer and actually changed his mind and disagreed to the agreement.

CO: But doesn't Israel have an obligation, as do other nations including Canada and throughout Europe — doesn't Israel have an obligation to help refugees, to take them in?

SH: Absolutely, and Israel does that all the time. Speaking of that now, we have a few thousand refugees in Ethiopia that are waiting to come to Israel, to immigrate to Israel. They did it legally, in a legal way they've been waiting for years.

CO: Can I ask you, are those Ethiopians Jews?

SH: Yes, they are Ethiopian Jews.

CO: And so I ask you, is the problem with the other Africans that they're not Jewish?

SH: It's not they're not Jewish. It's that they didn't do it in a legal way. You know, we unfortunately, we understand that there's not — you know, that the situation in Africa is not good. There's a problem with food. There's a shortage of water. There’s problems with work. But you also need to understand that there's millions of people at this condition. Israel cannot accept millions of people, unfortunately we're not strong enough. We don't have such a strong economy that we’ll be able to do it.

CO: But, you know, Israel is not being asked to take in millions of people. It’s asked to take in, in this deal would be 16,000 of these migrants. And the ones who are asking for asylum aren't coming because of food, water or work. They are people coming from a genocide in Darfur in Sudan. They are fleeing Eritrea, one of the worst countries for crimes against humanity and called slave-like conditions. These people are stateless and persecuted. To an Israeli Jew — just let me ask you — again to an Israeli Jew like yourself does that not sound familiar?

SH: A couple of things are about what you said because this is a little bit of misleading information. It's not actual fact. If you're fleeing from a genocide then you will stop at any kind of border just a sort of save your life. Those people have crossed a few different countries on the way when they didn't have life threatening — like for example Egypt.

CO: Is it not the case that those people who were crossing Egypt were persecuted, they were arrested, they were tortured — many of them were killed. I mean, they were not welcome to stay in Egypt. That's why they proceeded on to Israel. I think that's part of the story here.

SH: So as I said, there are a few countries that they've passed by. If they would be scared for their lives in their home country, Egypt would be able to actually accept them. Now when they receive status this is not just them. It's not just when you say 20,000, which is what the number is actually now at, this will mean that they'll be able to bring, you know, their families. So their wives, their kids so try double that number sometimes even triple the number and understand the amount.

CO: What's the evidence that that's a problem? We spoke with an Eritrean who was in Israel. We spoke with him yesterday who learned how to speak Hebrew. He was gainfully employed. He was part of the economy. What's the evidence that these people are a drain on your economy?

SH: Well, obviously it's a matter of preferences, as I said before. And when there are a few thousands of immigrants in Ethiopia waiting, it means that a lot of the resources that we put into a Hebrew school, into professional work, into housing will actually go toward them. And it's a matter of whether we put our preferences.

CO: Can I ask you if the reason why the choices you're making is because you only want to have Jews who come to Israel, you don't want anyone who is not Jewish?

SH: The way Canada was founded and the way Israel was founded is different. Israel was founded as a shelter to Jews who were persecuted for thousands of years all around the world. And we have to make sure that the Jews have at least one place where they have a safe haven where they can't be protected. Whatever happens around the world, wherever they’re persecuted they know that this is a place where they can come and they can be protected, they can defend themselves and they can choose their own sort of future and their own life. And so in that term yes, absolutely. Every single Jew around the world needs to know that whenever they choose to come to Israel, to immigrate to Israel, Israel is open for them whether they're being persecuted or whether it's from an ideological choice. So yes, my answer is yes.

CO: Do you know that according to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, the refugees who have already been deported from Israel, the ones who took the agreement that you're now going to return to, that hundreds of them have disappeared. They've been drowned in the Mediterranean. They have been killed by Islamic militants. Are you OK with that, to go back to that policy where those people will be put on planes to other countries? Are you satisfied with that arrangement?

SH: So many countries in Africa are in a complete chaos. Unfortunately Israel cannot solve all the problems in Africa. We are trying to do different cooperation on the security level, on terrorism, on agriculture, on water in order to better their life. But unfortunately, you know, there's a limit on how much we can do. I wish we could do more. I think that the real solution would actually be that the international community, countries like Israel or countries like Canada, European countries will work together in order to better the lives of Africans in Africa. Make it more safe, have more food sources, have more water sources, have different small businesses that they can develop. This is the only way to make millions of people’s lives better in that continent.

CO: All right, we'll leave it there. Ms Haskel, thank you.

SH: Thanks a lot.

JD: Sharren Haskel is a member of the Israeli Knesset with the Likud Party. We reached TRNC Kfar Saba, Israel

[Music: Ambient Tones]

Falcon Lake Coin

JD: The Royal Canadian Mint unveiled a brand new limited edition silver coin. On one side is, of course, the Queen, on the other side though, is a much less predictable image. The coin depicts a supposed UFO encounter in Manitoba that has become known as the Falcon Lake Incident. It happened to a man named Stefan Michalak in 1967 while he was eating lunch in the woods. Tomorrow on the program we will speak to Mr. Michalak’s son Stan. Today though, we have dug up an account from the CBC archives of the UFO sighting. Here is Edward Barker of Ufology Research of Manitoba speaking with CBC host Harry Brown in 1983.

SOUNDCLIP

HARRY BROWN: Has anybody ever come back with the marks of having been on one of these ships?

EDWARD BARKER: Oh, very definitely. Right here in Manitoba we have one of the finest cases on record. It's a very interesting case it took place at Falcon Lake. This was back in 67, and the gentleman involved, Michalak, was prospecting. As he goes prospecting stopped for lunch and he saw these bright lights. He looked up, as he was looking the thing came down, one of them came down, one flew off. Came about 160 feet away from him, made all kinds of light changes, like a light show — it was the most magnificent thing he said. Turned into a silver shaped object about 35 feet in diameter and as he watched it it went through further colour changes. He decided to grow up closer to it. He walked up almost within touching distance started calling it and as he looked at this thing a hatch opened up, according to his story. This is all — he was hypnotically regressed and this was all looked into.

HB: Have you talked to him personally?

EB: Oh personally. The upshot of this whole thing is that as he stepped back from viewing this thing it was very hot and very bright, the thing tilted started swinging around in a counter-clockwise direction bringing some vent holes, or what appeared to be vent holes in front of him. This hit him in the chest, knocked him down and this thing took off. To shorten the story somewhat, he eventually became very ill, started nauseating. He started seeing spots, he lost everything in his stomach. About nine months later he collapsed at work. When they rushed him into the hospital there was a series of dots on his chest. This proceeded to come back every three months for about 14 months, about a year-and-a-half thereabouts let's say.

JD: From 1983 that was UFO researcher Edward Barker Speaking to CBC TV's Harry Brown. He was describing the famous UFO encounter known as the Falcon Lake Incident. And the Royal Canadian Mint has just issued a coin depicting that supposed event. And tune in tomorrow because we're going to speak to the son of the man who was there at Falcon Lake when the incident occurred, Stefan Michalak.

[Music: Ambient Tones]

Catherin Tait CBC

Guest:

Today Catherine Tait told reporters she had just accepted her dream job. The 30-year veteran in Canadian and American film and television is the new president of CBC Radio-Canada. She's also the first woman to ever lead this public broadcaster. Ms. Tait has vowed to invest in local news, to increasingly think digital and to remain relevant to Canadians. She was a little light on details about what changes she'd like to see at CBC. As It Happens did request an interview with her. She declined. We are told that she will have more to say when she officially takes over the job from current president Hubert Lacroix in July. In the meantime though, here is part of what she had to say at a press conference on Parliament Hill today.

SOUNDCLIP

CATHERINE TAIT: Never before has content being in such demand on a worldwide basis. And never before have Canadians had the power to choose from such an abundance of content to be accessed on any device and to be viewed or listened to at any time. Never before has fake news been a household term. In this extraordinary climate of change CBC Radio-Canada along with public broadcasters around the world, are under significant competitive pressure. In order for public broadcasters to survive and to flourish we must focus on the services, news and programming that most connect with our public, not just as one audience but as many audiences. And we also need to reach deep into our shared culture — for Indigenous peoples to tell their own stories, to tell the stories of the many struggles and triumphs of new Canadians, of women and of the LGBTQ community. By being inclusive storytellers we enrich our collective experience as Canadians and as citizens. The key is that Canadians tune in because they want to, because they want to share what they see and hear on CBC and on Radio-Canada with others. So when I look back on my 30-year career the through line has been my passion for storytelling and for content — and I should say for Canadian content. I've been an advocate for independent voices and artists my entire career. After all, my husband is a sculptor and my daughter a photographer, so for me to be here as the first woman CEO of CBC Radio-Canada is an incredible honour. My greatest aspiration is to make a meaningful contribution to ensure a robust future for one of Canada's greatest and most important cultural institutions.

JD: Catherine Tait speaking at a press conference today in Ottawa. The new president of CBC Radio-Canada officially begins the job in July.

[Music: Strings and Piano]

Russian Trolls Hacked

Guest: Bob Seely

JD: $100 to hack an e-mail account. $20,000 for months-worth of pro-Russian rallies — including bribes to the police. And the cost of an army of social media trolls? 130,000 bucks. Those are just some of the prices quoted to the Kremlin during a Russian influence campaign in Ukraine in 2014. They come from a collection of Russian emails which were reported by The Times newspaper yesterday. Emails that were, fittingly enough, hacked. Bob Seely's analyze those e-mails. He is a British Conservative MP for the Isle of Wight. We reached him in London.

CO: Mr. Seely, what do these emails reveal in your view?

BOB SEELY: I think they reveal a snapshot of subversion and how the Kremlin runs its politicised warfare, what some people called hybrid war, some people call it covert war. There's lots of names for it, but it's a form of politics, information warfare, psychological operations lots of other elements as well including military.

CO: OK, in this snapshot, tell us with was in that picture?

BS: Well, this is how the Russians tried to run the statelets in eastern Ukraine, how they tried to organize demonstrations, how they tried to undermine and subvert Ukrainian authority and control in several parts of the country in the east and the southern regions of the country.

CO: Who is this campaign aimed at and for what purpose?

BS: The campaign is aimed at undermining state control. So it's getting protesters out, often paid protesters. It is effectively creating a sense of protest and upheaval, which is then captured on friendly media andfriendly social media, which is projected back. So it’s of showing the breakdown of Ukrainian authority, largely staged. And the hope is then you get enough people on the streets, you get the thugs on the streets, you get the gunman on the streets and then you get the full takeover of authority. Or the collapse of Ukrainian authority, which happened in in Lugansk and Donetsk in eastern Ukraine.

CO: And it appears that what's been reported is that this is a menu of services that are available for a fee. Can you outline some of those?

BS: Yeah, I mean in the third tranche in particular there were people who were quoting to do work for the Kremlin when it came to organizing demonstrations or even trying to overthrow some bits of local government. So there were prices being quoted for everything from cyber-attacks to street protests to putting placards. And, you know, the the bread and butter of political protest, which is familiar to some of the people in Western countries, but that goes all the way through to the overthrow of local government. And in a state like Ukraine, which was quite weak, and which was susceptible to manipulation that sort of came close in some places to threatening the integrity of the state. Now we know that revolution was successful in Donetsk, we know that revolution was successful in Lugansk. It failed in many other parts of the country. The critical area it failed in was in Odessa, there seems to have been a concerted attempt to try to undermine the Ukrainian state in Odessa. But the Ukraine is just about hung on.

CO: There are thousands of these emails that were released, that were hacked e-mails — but they indicate, as we know, there are all kinds of political figures in Russia who offer illegal services, to try to monetize political activity — it's a business, right. So how do we know that the Kremlin purchased any of these services?

BS: Well, there is some evidence for some of them they did. We know that some of them they didn't share, so some of the suggestions which are true that they didn't take up the offer but some of them they did. And we know that because quite a few of these people who've been involved in this were arrested and imprisoned or fled to Russia. So it's not just the e-mails that point to guilt or certainly proof all of their behaviour but other things as well.

CO: And do they have any success? Any evidence that the subversion worked?

BS: I think if you look at the e-mails en masse a significant attempt was made to destabilize Odessa. And, you know, that failed. And I think that was probably the critical failure, because I think if Odessa had been taken down I think Ukraine would have found it very difficult to fight a proxy war in the east of the country and in the southwest as well. So Donetsk and Lugansk partially succeeded. Lots of other uprisings and Harkov, Dnipro but a lot of these all failed. The critical one that failed was in Odess probably.

CO: Why does this — some are suggesting that this indicates how these people work, how these services, how the Russians work in other places. That this may be the blueprint or a plan for how other political campaigns such asBrexit might be subverted. Do you agree with that?

BS: I certainly agree that this is — that we should learn from the Ukrainian example. I think the evidence of Brexit manipulation is not there, and if it is there great but I have seen no evidence of that so far. What we have seen from the Senate Intelligence Committee and elsewhere, is highly significant manipulation in the last U.S. presidential elections, and some of those techniques and tools absolutely are similar. And I think what we're going to have in the next year or two years is the first really detailed reports and evidence of how this new form of politicized warfare works. So my report, which will be out in full in May, and that's about 30,000 words it's about 360 footnotes, a lot in there. And that I think the Robert Mueller report, when it comes out, will be devastating. So we are beginning to see the detail of this new subversive form of warfare or this renewed subversive form of warfare, and how it works. We've heard in recent days from former Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko who is saying that he's also an example of these tactics it appears the Russians are using now, that they were using 14 years ago when, he was poisoned. His face is still deformed from that. Are we seeing, I guess, Ukraine being a kind of testing ground for all kinds of activities of this kind of warfare that the Russians may be testing?

BS: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely and he's completely right. I mean, poisoning an assassination is one of the tools of what Russia in the Cold War used to call active measures. This is secret service communist party warfare. And for sure, in many ways, the Russians are using assassination much more than they did even during the Cold War one could argue. So I think a former president Yushchenko is absolutely correct. And I think that this is one of the forms, you know, assassination is one element of a full spectrum of measures that the Russians use for sure.

CO: Mr. Seely, thank you very much for speaking with us.

BS: My pleasure, thank you.

JD: Bob Seely is a British Conservative MP representing the Isle of Wight. We reached him in London.

[Music: Piano Ballad]

Beauvais April Fool’s

JD: Everyone loves a great prank. There are some people who will claim to hate a great prank and these jokesters will pretend to get really angry at you when you prank them. Sometimes they'll even do their own sort of counter prank in return — where they don't talk to you for like a decade and counting — but they love it, really. Take for instance the citizens of Beauvais, France. Privately they're all chuckling to themselves, whereas publicly, in what I assume is a collective prank, they're acting horrified and offended and issuing hilarious retorts like quote “I like April Fool's jokes but not when they give false hope to a population whose situation is made precarious by unemployment.” I don't quite get that but maybe it's funnier in French. This particular humourous back and forth began on April 1^st. Caroline Cayeux, the mayor of Beauvais, typed up a long Facebook post. The uproarious set up the Swedish furniture giant Ikea would be establishing a new outlet in Beauvais that would bring 4,000 much-needed jobs to the community. But guess what? None of that is actually true. April Fool’s! I know, hilarious right? But the people of Beauvais, they didn't appear to find it very funny, in fact, they said they were disgusted and outraged by a joke they said was inappropriate and cruel. Now I can only assume that is a counter prank. And if it was they sure got Mayor Caroline Cayeux . Because she has since apologized saying that the whole April Fool was a quote “communication error” and quote “this was a mistake and we will do better next year.” Well, I don't know that's setting the bar pretty high, because if you ask me this year's was a laugh riot — and secretly I'm sure the people Beauvais agree — it's a real slap in the knee.

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

April 3, 2018 episode transcript

Social Sharing

More from this episode