May 04, 2021 Episode Transcript

The AIH Transcript for May 04, 2020

[host]Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden[/host]

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is "As It Happens".

[Music: Theme]

CO: A disaster waiting to happen. More than 20 people are dead after a subway overpass collapses in Mexico City -- a reporter tells us there were plenty of warning signs of a potential catastrophe.

CH: Gone -- but making sure she's not forgotten. Daoyou Feng was one of six Asian women killed in Atlanta in March -- and a volunteer is still searching for clues about her life.

CO: The needles and the damage done. The National Advisory Committee on Immunization says some Canadians should considering waiting for "preferred" mRNA vaccines -- but an Ontario doctor says, from an equity perspective, that's "horrible" advice.

CH: Saber second thought. It's Star Wars Day, so we'll head to the archives for an interview with a man whose team designed a real-life lightsaber -- which is sort of useful, even if it's not a matter of life and Darth.

CO: Snake preview. An Australian man is half an hour from shore when he realizes he's sharing his boat with a venomous stowaway -- forcing him to make his way back to the dock bit by bit, unbit.

CH: And...a tar is born. Newfoundland and Labrador's opposition leader plans to shame the government by holding a newser at a notorious pothole -- only to discover the hole had been hastily filled hours before his arrival.

CH: "As It Happens", the Tuesday edition. Radio that figures someone was covering their asphalt.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Mexico Subway Collapse, NACI Vaccine Advice, NL Pothole Newser 

Mexico Subway Collapse

Guest: Cinthya Chavez

CH: In Mexico City, they are still digging through the wreckage. Late last night, an elevated section of the subway line collapsed as a train passed over it. At least 23 people are dead, and many injured. It has since emerged that some locals had been worried about the section of track, after cracks appeared in the structure following the 2017 earthquake. Cinthya Chavez is a freelance journalist. We reached her at the scene of the collapse in Mexico City.

CO: Cinthya, first of all, can you describe what you're seeing in front of you right now?

CINTHYA CHAVEZ: Yeah, so what I'm seeing now, it's the collapsed columns and the trains. There are two big cranes trying to lift up the remaining parts of the train. There is a lot of people here, lots of security, police, the army, the rescue teams. There is a lot of people that travels every day in this direction, so, as you can imagine, like, tons of people, like, witnessing what is happening.

CO: Is there any possibility that they will still get survivors out of that wreckage?

CC: Well, I just had the chance to get close to a family. It was really heartbreaking because it's this mom that is looking for her 12-year-old son. The father was travelling with a kid, and he was rescued. And he's very injured like severely injured in the hospital now. But they haven't been able to found the kid. He's a 12-year-old. And she has, of course, she... she has a hope that the kid's still there because they have looked in all the hospitals and there are no reports of that kid. So she is convinced that the kid's still somewhere there. But the family's destroyed, and they were really desperate.

CO: Is anyone helping her? Is she getting any information?

CC: Well, for what I saw, not really. She is not getting information because, I mean, there's not so much organization. I cannot see anyone, like, giving here in the site information to families, to relatives. Some politicians came close to her and offered help and legal support. She's looking like in Mexico what's happening on her own way.

CO: And it's not just that this... the overpass collapsed and these cars went down, but they landed on a highway, a freeway, right? How busy is that stretch of road?

CC: Well, I don't know if you have been able to watch the video, but there were many cars passing under the bridge at that hour. So you can actually see on the video that cars were trapped. There were a couple of like a taxi and a couple of cars that... that were under the bridge. And those are the cars that I... I think they haven't been able to even touch because it was completely under the concrete.

CO: And there are people who are looking for family members they know were driving on that stretch of road and are worried that they are among those who might still be... still be in those vehicles.

CC: Yeah, there was a father that swears that... that car of his son was passing in the exact moment where this… when this collapsed. And... and he, again, as the other mother that I told you, he hasn't been able to locate... he has no communication. So he can only think the worst. And also, because I'm here on the site, I may move to the hospitals in a while because all the families have moved to hospitals, and they are searching in different hospitals because the government has released a paper with names. But there are many unknown people on those... on those lists.

CO: What can you tell us about this stretch of track? I understand that there were some concerns about its strength before this happened?

CC: Yeah, so I have talked to many, like, neighbours, workers that travel every day in this... in this lane of the metro, of the subway. And frustrated thing is that everybody says the same, like, we knew this was going to happen. Because from the very beginning, when it was built a couple of years ago, they knew it was, like, wrongly constructed, built. So everybody said, like, we... we have denounced this for years. Like, columns were in bad shape after the earthquake, earthquake of 2017. And they told me, like, actually, you have to go and see other columns in a... in a curve near because it's damaged. And they have been... everybody, everybody agrees that this was going to happen. Somebody told me like we were just waiting for this tragedy to happen at some point because we knew. So people is really angry. Some people... when authorities come and enter to the site, like, lots of people, neighbours shouts at them in anger.

CO: And what were they saying?

CC: We're near to the election, so... so they were, like, saying, like, typical politicians, you appear when it's a tragedy. But then, when... when it's the time to do it, you don't do it. This tragedy is your fault. Like, this was no natural disaster. This was, like, corruption, corruption disaster. Because they claimed that from the very beginning, materials were wrong, engineering was wrong. So this was... this was going to happen at any point. And there is, like, a report one year ago where video showing the cracks on the columns.

CO: And, in fact, even before this earthquake, they... the line had to be closed partially in 2013, right after it was built, because there was already a need for repair in the cracks.

CC: Yeah, exactly. They say that there were like electric problems. From the very beginning, this line has been criticized also because they say that it's being built in that part of the city, which, as you know, Mexico City's over a lake. So from the very beginning, they say it shouldn't be built over this surface.

CO: So there will undoubtedly be an investigation. Do you think anyone will be held accountable? Any of these politicians who are showing up, are they... will they be held accountable for this?

CC: Well, the mayor that was in the position of mayor when this was built has said in the morning that he is willing to... to be there for anything. And he's... he's responsible for it. So let's see. Let's see. I think it's too early. But also, like the subway system has had, like, three accidents recently. Like, a couple of months ago, the station... a central station was burning. And before that, another accident with other station. And this also is going to affect lots of people that travel because this line connects, like, the surrounding area of the city with... with other lines. So it's going to make people's life difficult to transport within this part of the city.

CO: So many problems from this. Cinthya, I know you want to get on to the hospitals to start finding out what is going on there. And so we'll let you go. But we really appreciate you giving us some time. Thank you.

CC: OK, thank you. Bye.

CH: Cinthya Chavez is a freelance journalist. We reached her at the scene of the subway collapse in Mexico City.

[music: horns!!!]

NACI Advice 

Guest: Zain Chagla

CH: Justin Trudeau had a message for Canadians today.

[sc]

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: First of all, let me remind everyone that every vaccine administered in Canada is safe and effected... effective, as evaluated by Health Canada. The safety of Canadians is first and foremost, and we have seen the tragic impact of COVID-19 all across the country. And vaccines are one of the key tools to reduce the deaths and the vulnerability of Canadians to COVID-19. That's why we are continuing to recommend to everyone to get vaccinated as quickly as possible so we can get through this so we can see case numbers drive down, and we can end with so many of these restrictions.

[/sc]

CH: That's some of what the Prime Minister said today, after the National Advisory Committee on Immunization, or NACI, drew criticism for comments made yesterday. The committee's vice-chair said the mRNA vaccines -- Pfizer and Moderna -- are "preferred" to the viral vector vaccines -- AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson. The latter two have been linked to extremely rare cases of blood clots. Dr. Zain Chagla is an infectious diseases physician at St. Joseph's Healthcare in Hamilton, Ontario. Today, we reached him in Mississauga.

CO: Dr. Chagla, we just heard the Prime Minister compelled to respond to what we had heard yesterday from the National Advisory Committee on Immunization, saying that all vaccines are safe and effective. But what damage do you worry that this NACI press conference has already done?

ZAIN CHAGLA: Yeah, I mean, I think there's two things. One, that people that were already kind of on the fence at whether or not they wanted AstraZeneca or wanted to wait, that, yeah, they've been pushed to wait a little bit more, which, you know, if... if COVID wasn't a great issue, and our health care was operational, and we weren't dealing with the calamity we've been dealing with in the third wave, then fair, so be it. But in reality, we're getting people admitted to the hospital that could have very well had a vaccination, including AstraZeneca, two weeks ago to prevent that outcome or need a ventilator, or unfortunately, passed away. And I think, secondly, you know, that that preferential system I think they created made a lot of people who got the vaccine in the last two weeks kind of sit there and say, hey, did I get an inferior vaccine?

CO: But it also speaks to, I guess, who is able to wait? And as you point out, that some people just urgently should be getting this vaccine. People who don't have proper housing, migrant workers, essential workers, people in racialized neighbourhoods that are also poor neighbourhoods. These are people who don't have options. So what does it say about a message that, yes, well, if you live in a sparsely populated place, and you can work from home, and you've got good health outcomes, that you should wait for the preferred one, but all the rest of you get whatever you can?

ZC: I understand with the science they're trying to convey, but from an equity lens, that is a horrible statement, right?  Like, you're telling the people that are at the highest risk, that are putting themselves at the highest risk so that many of us can live in a low-risk setting, can have our groceries, you know, dealt with, can get take-out, all that stuff, that, you know us as the people that are working from home, you know, you can wait for the right vaccine, the one that has the lowest risk of side effects. But you that are out in the field, you know what? You should probably get the one that has the highest rate of side effects. And, I think, add to that even the people that are low-risk may not be as low-risk as they seem. I've seen a lot of individuals that are supported by others who got infected by a home care worker, that got infected by the friend that brings them groceries once a week. And even though they think they're at low risk, again, those... those contacts that they have, even the few, can be high-risk in that... in that context. And again, they don't know they're low-risk until... or not low-risk until they end up hospitalized with COVID-19.

CO: The other message that we have been receiving, and it's an important one, is that getting vaccinated isn't just something you do for yourself, it's what you do for the public good. I mean, this is... this is your responsibility, right?

ZC: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, even from the standpoint of this is all, you know, a personal action. You know, again, there's nothing we can offer in medicine right now that is comparable to the vaccine's effects in terms of preventing hospitalization and death from COVID-19, even with all the therapeutics we have. But again, even if you're going to make this argument in terms of a personal risk and a personal risk-benefit, you're absolutely right. That societal benefit right now, the fact that we can't do surgeries on people because health care is so utilized, that we have health care workers that are burning out left and right, that hospitals are facing unprecedented clinical needs to deal with COVID-19. You know, that can't be ignored as part of this discussion. There are people that are suffering complications that aren't COVID-related because of the burden of COVID in our communities.

CO: This advisory committee is not government. They advise government. But they're not stupid people, right? They're informed. And so we've heard from the health minister today. She said in the House that if you have any doubts, you should contact your doctor and see what's best for you. And that was the message today from Patty Hajdu. What do you make of that?

ZC: Yeah, I mean, I know a number of the individuals on NACI. They're, you know, at the top of their field in infectious diseases, immunology, virology, you know, geriatrics and other practices. And so, you know, absolutely, I have a deep respect for what they do. They have to make guidance for, you know, Charlottetown to Vancouver. And so there is going to be solid guidance there, but it's going to have to need nuance and context. And you've seen other countries that have dealt with this that have really tried to create informational and forward-facing material to the population so that they kind of understand and get what they're going to get. Again, nothing that they said was unscientific. But, you know, that communication, that piece of demonstrating to the public, yeah, if you live in Charlottetown, fine. You know, you might want to wait for your vaccine, but if you're living in Mississauga right now, you are at higher risk of what's going on outside of your front door as compared to the risk of these clotting reactions. I think being able to have the nuance and the communications to convey it is important. It is an incredibly publicly-facing role. And NACI was never this in the past. But the reality is that, you know, people are listening to their statements, provinces are being committed to these statements, the public is listening to their statements. And I think, you know, you have to build in that communication strategy of being consistent and being vaccine-promoting your population is just as important as the advice you give. You know, again, people need to resource NACI to actually have that communications end because it's just leading to this distrust, which is not right either.

CO: There was perhaps a more potentially influential statement made by the chair of NACI, Dr. Caroline Quach-Thanh, who said on CTV, this is a quote, If, for instance, my sister got the AstraZeneca vaccine and died of a thrombosis when I know it could have been prevented and that is not in a high-risk area, I'm not sure I could live with it. What message are we to take from that?

ZC: I mean, you're talking about a theoretical risk of an individual that hasn't happened. Again, we've had one fatality in Canada of vaccine-associated thrombosis. You know, we're hearing 25 to 30 deaths a day in Ontario day by day. And I think those numbers need to be balanced against that one death, right? We are ongoing seeing people between the ages of 40 and 50 that were eligible for an AstraZeneca vaccine that are being admitted to hospital day by day. And it's one thing if this happened in April of 2020. It's another thing if it's happening in May of 2021, where there is a vaccine that could prevent this outcome two weeks before. And I think that really does need to be balanced against the message of, you know, a potential side effect that is exceptionally rare in the hypothetical individual.

CO: We'll leave it there. Dr. Chagla, thank you.

ZC: No problem. All the best.

CH: Dr. Zain Chagla is an infectious diseases physician. We reached him in Mississauga, Ontario. You can find more on this story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: ambient]

QP: Fullerton-Horwath exchange

CH: Calls for the resignation of Ontario's minister responsible for long-term care are growing. In a heated exchange today at Queen's Park, Andrea Horwath -- leader of the opposition -- demanded that the minister, Merrilee Fullerton, take responsibility for her government's handling of the COVID crisis in long-term care centres. On Friday, a damning report on how the virus was handled in Ontario's LTC homes was released. It found that residents made up 61 per cent of the COVID-19 deaths in Ontario last year. And that by the end of April, nearly 4,000 residents had died. After citing the report, Ms. Horwath called on the minister to resign. Here is some of their back-and-forth.

[sc]

ANDREA HORWATH: For over a year, this minister denied the crisis in long-term care instead of stopping it. She refused to support seniors in long-term care. She stood by the premier's fallacy of a ring... an iron ring around long-term care. She actually said in this House that they were moving quickly and reasonably, literally while the Canadian armed forces were finding people dying of neglect in long-term care homes. Speaker, this minister has tried to save the Ford government, and save her own reputation, instead of saving people in long-term care. How can anybody expect this minister can fix things when she can't even admit to her mistakes?! Will she resign today? Take ministerial accountability for the things she was supposed to do and didn't do to protect seniors in long-term care?

[lots of clapping]

SPEAKER: Minister of Long-Term Care, your reply?

MERILEE FULLERTON: Thank you, Speaker. If the leader of the opposition had done her job -- [boos]

SPEAKER: Order. Order.

MF: During the time that the previous government neglected long-term care if you had been a voice, if you had taken the opportunity that you had, years and years of runway that you wasted, that the leader of the opposition closed her eyes to. Go back to the Hansard, look how many times she even bothered to mention -- [chatter all around]

SPEAKER: Order!

MF: The long-term care word. Look at your failure. I was left to pick up the pieces from a devastating 15 years of neglect. I will not be spoken to that way by the leader of the opposition -- [more chatter]

SPEAKER: Order.

MF: That neglected this sector, and the opposition at the time neglected the sector.

[banging and yelling]

SPEAKER: Order, order, order, order! [clapping and a voice in the distance]

[/sc]

CH: Merrilee Fullerton, Ontario's minister of long-term care, responding to NDP leader Andrea Horwath today in the provincial legislature in Toronto. Now, note that the NDP has been in power only once in Ontario -- from 1990 to 1995. After Question Period, Ms. Horwath stood by her words and repeated her call for the minister to resign.

[music: glassy guitar riff]

NL Pothole Newser

Guest: David Brazil

CH: The blistering news release from Newfoundland and Labrador's opposition leader went out yesterday afternoon. David Brazil announced he'd be showing up, in person, at a, quote, "massive pothole" near the town of Portugal Cove-St. Philip's. His plan was to shame the government for the section of un-repaired road. But when he showed up, he found that -- by some strange coincidence -- the notorious pothole had been hastily filled in. We reached David Brazil in St. John's.

CO: Mr. Brazil, first of all, can you describe the pothole you had hoped to expose to the world?

DAVID BRAZIL: Well, there was a number of potholes. The one that, you know, we did our interview around is a particular one that's in the middle of the road. You know, it's about eight, 10, 12-inches deep. It's about three feet wide. But there's a multitude. There's probably a hundred of those in the next, you know, 200 feet.

CO: So the pothole that you wanted to expose, though. You were going to have a newser at this particular place, right?

DB: yes.

CO: There's one that's... that's near, right? That was the one you hoped to expose, right?

DB: Yes, exactly. And… and what we found is somebody had put orange bags into it -- of sand. And the government had come and put... just threw some asphalt on the top of it, you know, hiding the bags, but really not doing... being proactive in securing the pothole to make it safe.

CO: Now, you put out this alert. You wanted to show up there and expose this. But that... how quickly do you think they actually moved on covering up this pothole?

DB: Oh, very quickly. At mid-afternoon yesterday, you know, it was... bags were coming up to the ground. You could see they had just thrown a shovel full over it. By this morning, when we were to go out there, it had been covered over. Yet, the bags were still there. And you'd be able to see on certain levels of, you know, television shots and pictures that the bags are still coming up. Right now, I've been told that they have heavy equipment out there as we speak, digging it up and repairing it to an acceptable level.

CO: Well, what is it exactly that they did? And you talk… for people who haven't seen the picture or don't know what these orange plastic bags might represent, what actually happened in the pothole?

DB: Well, they're sandbags. They just took sandbags that you would use normally, like in a flood situation. They threw that in the pothole. Normally what you do, then when you come back with hot tar and pavement, you take those out, you fill it up with pavement, you level it off. So it's a good, clean surface. They didn't do that. Either they didn't have the resources to do it, or they proactively just decided, let's just throw a skim over it and leave the bags in the ground, which doesn't work. The bags will deteriorate. They'll sink down because it's sand, and you'll still have a pothole forever and a day.

CO: So… and you could actually see the bits of orange plastic sticking out of the road, right?

DB: Exactly. So you don't leave that there as a permanent fix. Makes no sense whatsoever other than, you know, the government weren't being proactive. They're being reactive. And it was, you know, really just piecemeal and not really being professional in doing their job and ensuring people are safe.

CO: When you called the media to go there, did they actually meet you at this pothole?

DB: Well, you know, to my surprise, and pleasant surprise, there were every media outlet in Newfoundland and Labrador showed up, every one. Print media, the radio and the TV stations, and a number of other private media outlets. So they were all there. You know, this was embarrassing for the people involved. It's embarrassing for government. And they should be taking a more proactive approach to ensure people are safe while they drive.

CO: But was it at all embarrassing for you to have all the media show up, and there wasn't a pothole anymore?

DB: No. You know, fortunate enough, [slight chuckle] media members had travelled that road yesterday for other reasons and had noted it. Some had taken pictures of the potholes themselves in advance of it. Other members of the media, particularly one of the CBC reporters, travelled that road on a daily basis in one of the sports that they're involved in and had noted for years that these potholes every year occur. And every year, for months, there's no... it's not being addressed. In this case, the throwing in of the bags at least was a temporary solution from a safety point of view. But then, just to throw hot pavement over them was, you know, deplorable, and knew it wasn't going to last. It was just an exercise to say we addressed the issue while it's now being embarrassing and are out there now having to repair it at a higher additional cost. And I would hope that they realize they have egg on their face now for not being proactive.

CO: But OK, the fix is just so obviously [chuckle] a bad bandaid on top of something because the orange bags are sticking up. The pavement is not level or anything. So what do you make of that? The workers who did that, do you think that they... they were expecting you to see what you saw?

DB: Well, I would hope. I mean, I'm a former minister of transportation and work, so I would know, you know, what's acceptable and what's not. And what's a temporary fix versus a permanent fix. You know, I'm thinking, too, the government we're given a process to put in play. Maybe they didn't give the resources to the department officials, the frontline staff. Maybe they didn't prioritize what had to be done. Maybe it was reactionary because it definitely wasn't proactive. So at the end of the day, you know, there's a number of people should be embarrassed here. The minister should be the first one. The government should be that. And the senior supervisors should be embarrassed that this was an easy fix that they should have did with some due diligence that they didn't do.

CO: But it's pretty obvious that they did a very half-done job here at this site, that they did this in order to, well, fill that hole as quickly as they could. So what do you think? Do you think the workers… have you talked to any of the workers who did that? Were they... were they aware that they were just covering something over?

DB: Well, no. I've reached out and haven't seen them. I do know again, I've had pictures sent to me that their crew's on-site again now. It's unfortunate that it shouldn't be, you know, who screams the loudest or who has the... the most notoriety is part of it. You know, the embarrassing thing here is that you know, I'm a former minister in a previous administration, but I'm also in this district. And those roads, the premier of our province, travels on a daily basis. So, you know, this is... this is an embarrassment not only for this part of the province, but it should be for any other part of this province.

CO: Do you think this will result in the other potholes being filled?

DB: I would guarantee in my district you'll have trouble finding a pothole before this evening's out. I would hope it shakes up a number of municipal leaders in other towns and citizens that they come out to and rally and say, look, there's a process here. These potholes need to be fixed in a timely fashion and fixed properly. And then people will be able to drive safer on our roads.

CO: All right, we'll leave it there. Mr. Brazil, thank you.

DB: Thank you so much. Take care.

CH: David Brazil is leader of the Progressive Conservative Party of Newfoundland and Labrador. We reached him in St. John's.

[music: electronic]

Part 2: Atlanta Shooting Victim, Snake in a Boat

Atlanta Shooting Victim

Guest: Charles Li

CH: It's been nearly two months since a brutal mass killing in Atlanta, Georgia -- and one victim's life in the United States still remains more or less a mystery. In March, a gunman targeted three spas in the Atlanta area, leaving eight people dead. Six of those victims were Asian women. Several of the victims have been remembered in media reports by their grieving family members and friends. But there is still very little known about Daoyou Feng. The 44-year-old spa employee was the only victim of the shootings with no next of kin, no known personal belongings, and no friends in the U.S. Charles Li runs the Atlanta Chinese American Alliance. Last month, he organized a funeral for Ms. Feng. And even now, he's still trying to piece together key parts of Ms. Feng's life. We reached Charles Li in Atlanta, Georgia.

CO: Charles, how difficult has it been for you to find clues about Daoyou Feng's life in America?

CHARLES LI: Well, it's been more difficult than I expected. Because, typically, if you stay in this country for a period of time, you should have friends, some connections, people know you. But it's been very difficult for us to get anything about Ms. Feng's life.

CO: How did you personally get involved with Daoyou Feng's case?

CL: Well, I'm with a organization, it's called Atlanta Chinese American Alliance, which is a volunteer organization to help the Chinese-Americans here who really needs some help. And this time, for Ms. Feng's case, we were actually contacted by the Chinese embassy. And they reached out to us, and it was a complicated situation because we are like the third party. And the family is in China, so we try to get like a power of attorney or some way, you know, we can represent the family to handle this.

CO: You came to represent the family in China for Ms. Feng. But what did you learn from the family, from her family in China, about who she was and how she'd come to the United States?

CL: Yeah, I talked to her brother several times. And the last time, actually, her brother's wife also participated in that conversation. Because they live in the part of China is called Guangdong Province, and her brother speaks Cantonese. And I don't speak Cantonese, so it is difficult for us to talk to each other. But finally, like his wife came to join the conversation, and she was able to give me some information about her life in China. But still, there's a lot of details missing.

CO: She was one of those women in that Young's Asian Massage enterprise. She was one of four who were murdered there. She was only 44 years old at the time. Do you know anything about how she came to be working there? Didn't any... didn't anyone at Young's Asian Massage know anything about her? The family, did they know anything about her?

CL: Yeah. Again, according to Ms. Feng's brother, the owner of the Young's Asian spa, Mr. Tan, who knew Ms. Feng before. I think that was the connection. So Ms. Tan, the owner, invited Ms. Feng to come to Atlanta to work in her massage spa.

CO: There were four people killed, so the people she was working with were also lost their lives in that shooting, right?

CL: That's correct. And because we're still trying to find any other friends she might have there. So far, we have not had any success, but we're still trying.

CO: Why is it important for you to find her friends, to find her... the people she knew and who knew her?

CL: There are two reasons. The first reason, of course, so we could tell the family about her life here. The second reason is that the family has asked us to locate her assets... personal assets if she had any. She might have some assets somewhere in the bank or some other place and return them to her family, which was her wish because she had been very supportive to her family. She was sending money to her mother every month. And she actually bought an apartment for her mother last year.

CO: Why did you not return her remains to her family in China?

CL: Yeah, that was interesting. When I talked to her brother about the funeral arrangement, our suggestion was that we could send her ash back to her family in China. But her brother immediately told us, no, no, no, no, no, we cannot do that. Well, I said, why? He said that, well, in our area, which is that particular part of China, there's a custom that if any woman who never got married died other part of the country, and her remains cannot be returned to home.

CO: So, because she was unmarried --

CL: That's right. She was unmarried.

CO: They won't take her remains back to her village?

CL: That's correct.

CO: How did you feel when... how did you feel when you heard that?

CL: It's very sad for all of us working around this case because she died here alone without any family now who remain buried here alone forever. It is kind of sad. But again, we have to respect whatever the custom they have in the village.

CO: I understand that her mother, her ageing mother, may not even know that she was killed?

CL: That's true. The brother told us that because her mother's health condition, he just didn't want to upset her. But I believe that she will find out sooner or later because Ms. Feng was very close to her mother. And they talked quite often through WeChat. And I believe that the mother will find out this before long.

CO: At the funeral, you gave the eulogy. You didn't find friends of hers. You didn't learn much from those who attended. What does it tell you about people who come to the United States who live as Ms. Feng did, just trying to make work... find work, send money home? What does it say about the lives of so many people there?

CL: It's kind of also sad to me that many people like Ms. Feng came over to the United States for a better life. And they, you know, try very hard, work hard to make a living, to support the family for whatever the dream they have. In the meantime, because of the work they do, the stigma associated with it, and they kind of live in the darkness or something almost like that. And try to hide their life from other people. And so it's kind of sad for me and for our group that we couldn't find out more about her life to tell other people. It was pretty sad.

CO: Sad and tragic on so many levels, Charles. I'm glad that you're... you're trying to put those pieces together and tell her story. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

CL: Thank you, Carol. Thank you.

CH: Charles Li runs the Atlanta Chinese American Alliance. We reached him in Atlanta, Georgia.

[music: Spanish guitar]

FOA: Apls Remains:

CH: When it comes to "hunkering down" we've all become grudging experts. But archaeologists are here to remind us that staying put is nothing humans haven't done before -- sometimes to extremes far exceeding today's. Take, for instance, the twenty or so Austro-Hungarian soldiers who spent the bulk of the First World War stationed in the Stelvio pass. For more than three years they fought Italian troops in the treacherous alpine terrain. Those who survived left abruptly when the war ended. And for nearly a century, their belongings were literally frozen in time. Then, glaciers began their retreat -- revealing what the soldiers had left behind with theirs. Weapons, diaries, food tins. And eventually, an entire wooden barracks perched atop Italy's Mount Scorluzzo. Now, those barracks have been excavated and their contents will soon be on display. It's a feat of glacial archaeology that inspired us to revisit an interview about Ötzi -- a prehistoric man whose body was found in the same region. From our archives, here's part of Michael Enright's 1991 conversation with the legendary climber Reinhold Messner, who had to see the find for himself. 

[sc]

REINHOLD MESSNER: I was there because I am surrounding South Tyrol, our home country. And exactly in the days when the body was discovered from German tourists, I was on the same spot coming down from the high mountains. 

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Aha?!

RM: So when I passed by, and I heard from this discovery, I climbed up again to the spot where the body was found. And immediately, I could see that it's an archaeological fact. The people... they discovered the body, they said this is not an archeological site. He died in the last 20 years. And I could see that's not true. There's something older.

ME: Do you know if anything else has been found out about the man? We knew that he was wearing leather and he had some tools with him.

RM: Yes, he was wearing leather, and special shoes. And they found some berries around him. It means that he was eating berries. And they will study also his stomach in the next weeks and days. 

ME: What about his tool... his tools? 

RM: He he had an axe in his hand, an axe with bronze and wood, and a bow and arrow, a lot of arrows. But partly, his tools were made out of stone. Partly, they were made out of bronze. But the most important thing, and still nobody is knowing what it means, there are some marks on his back, on his backside. And these marks are made with fire, in my view. But it's only a feeling. I'm not a scientist.

ME: No, you're... you're a mountain climber. And you've climbed these mountains for years, I understand?

RM: Yes, I know these mountains very well. This was also one of the serious things I met. And I was there and sitting there and thinking, it's impossible that 3,000, 4,000 years ago the people were able to climb such high peaks. And now, I understand that it's not what we always said, that years and years ago, the people were afraid from the mountains that they had no chance to climb up. Now, with all the tools, the equipment this man had and is suited just 4,000 of years ago, they were able to climb quite high mountains. And I'm sure in the next years, when the glaciers in the Alps will go back, less ice on the mountains, we will get passed by more strange bodies.

[/sc]

CH: Mountain climber Reinhold Messner, speaking with "As It Happens" host Michael Enright in 1991 about the discovery of Ötzi the Ice Man -- famous for his tattoos and for being 5,000 years old, give or take. 

[music: indie rock]

Snake in a Boat

Guest: Bob Thatcher

CH: It was supposed to be a relaxing fishing trip. But Bob Thatcher quickly found himself in a world of trouble when he climbed into his small dinghy last week and headed out into Australia's Lake Wellington. The 80-year-old was hoping to catch some nice bream. Eventually, he found a nice spot to anchor a few miles offshore. It was just him, his fishing gear, and the waves rocking his small boat back and forth. Except, it wasn't. He looked down, and realized he wasn't alone. We reached Bob Thatcher in Sale, Australia.

CO: Bob, can you take us back to that moment last week on your boat? At what point did you realize that you had company?

BOB THATCHER: Well, I'd just dropped the anchor on the... on the... at one spot where I decided I'd try fishing. And I threw my lines in. And I went to sit down, and I noticed something that was on the floor. And when I had a decent look at it, it was a metre-long tiger snake.

CO: A metre-long tiger snake?!

BT: Yes. That's one of the more venomous snakes in the world. [clears throat]

CO: You immediately recognized it for what it was?

BT: Yes, yes. Has stripes on it. And we only have, usually, a couple of different snakes in the area, so it wasn't very hard to recognize.

CO: OK, so this is not a big boat, right?

BT: Not a 14-foot-six.

CO: And the snake is taking up a lot of it?

BT: Yes, too, right. Yeah, I didn't like to look at it very much. The heart rate went up fairly rapidly.

CO: How close was he to your feet?

BT: About 30 centimetres or a foot, whichever... whichever you speak in.

CO: Whichever way you speak in, it's close, right? That is far too close.

BT: Right. It was, yes.

CO: Can you just describe what these snakes look like?

BT: Well, that's probably… [chuckle] an ugly-looking thing. It's very... it's got a very smooth head. It's like a... like a big worm.

CO: And it's... it's a venomous bite that it has?

BT: Yes. It's one of the... the ten most venomous snakes in the world, apparently.

CO: Was he seeming aggressive?

BT: Not at that stage. It... it was fairly sedate as long as I didn't know.

CO: OK, so your companion relaxed a bit, but I presume you did not?

BT: No, I didn't. I had to sort of decide which way I was going to get home? Because the only option I had was to get back to the boat ramp and see if I could get hold of the snake catcher and get him to remove the snake from the boat. There was no sense getting out of the boat on the edge of the lake where I was because I still had to get back to the ramp afterwards. And the only access I had… I had to get back in the boat to get across there.

CO: You couldn't jump out and swim?

BT: No, I'm not a very good swimmer. It wasn't very deep, but I still had the same problem. I still had to get back because no one can get across to it. The only access we've got is by boat.

CO: OK, so... so what did you decide to do?

BT: Well, the snake was settled down in amongst the tackle and wasn't causing any real problem. I pulled in the anchor and started the motor and started motoring across the lake, gradually getting a little bit faster all the time. And I tried ringing my family to let them know what my predicament was. I was able to get hold of one of my sons and explain my situation to him and ask him if he could find out if there was a snake catcher around and if he was available to come down and meet me at the boat ramp? I opened the boat up a little bit faster, and I got to the boat ramp a little bit before the snake catcher got there. And the snake remained fairly sedate all the way across, which is much of a relief. I didn't have to worry about him too much. [clears throat]

CO: OK, what happened when he got back to the dock, to the ramp?

BT: Well, when I got back to the... back to the ramp, I got to as quickly as I could, [both chuckling] and just waited for the snake catcher. And he arrived about 10 minutes later. And we started lifting all the gear that I had inside the boat out, and so that we could get a clear way of grabbing the snake. Once we did that, we had it under control, the snake catcher put it in a bag and took it down to another part in the swamp and released it down there.

CO: OK, you missed the part about how this guy gets into the boat and gets the snake? I mean, how do you catch a snake?

BT: He had a pole, which is about... about four-foot-long, I suppose. And it had a clamp on the end of it. He wasn't in any danger and... and the snake couldn't get away.

CO: OK, I want to... I'm just trying to figure out [chuckling] what... how much danger you were in. Let's say if you got bitten by the snake when you're out there, how quickly would that poison have taken you?

BT: It's almost instant that it starts to affect you. [clears throat] I'd have to have medical treatment... medical treatment with... within half an hour, I believe. There are quite a few people who have died from their bites. So that was a fact that I was faced with. [chuckling] So it's not a very nice thought to think that we might bite me. But he wasn't terribly aggressive, I suppose.

CO: But if you... how long did it take you, from the moment you realized if you had a friend with you, how long was that before you were back on land?

BT: Bit over half an hour.

CO: [chuckling] OK. All right. This is... this is not… [chuckling] these are not good numbers, right? These are… you were really... you just... you would have been in a lot of trouble if you'd been bitten by this snake?

BT: Yes, I would have been. And, of course, being at least 20 kilometres out of town, by the time they would have got an ambulance out there to... to pick you up or take you off, well, that would have been at least another half or about three-quarters of an hour.

CO: Yikes!

BT: So, yeah, it would have taken a fair while if I was to be taken to hospital. If I'd been bitten, it would have been a different story altogether.

CO: OK, besides all of this, how was the fishing trip?

BT: No good. Never got a bite.

CO: [both laughing] Exactly.

BT: Waste of time. [both laughing]

CO: You didn't get a bite. And it's the first time you could say that's a good thing.

BT: Yes, too, right. Yes, I don't know what would've happened if I hadn't noticed the snake, you know, lying on the floor. If I'd have stood on it, that would have been a different story again, too. Because that would have made it fairly aggressive. And may have had different results.

CO: For sure, it would. Well, Bob, I'm glad you didn't get a bite on that fishing trip. [both laughing]

BT: Oh my!

CO: And I'm glad you're OK.

BT: Thank you.

CO: Thanks for telling us the story.

BT: A pleasure. Thank you very much for your interest. [chuckling]

CO: Bye-bye.

BT: Nice to talk to somebody over in Canada. Good on you! Bye!

CO: [chuckle] Bye-bye.

CH: Bob Thatcher was fishing last week when he discovered a deadly, metre-long tiger snake on his boat. We reached him in Sale, Australia.

[music: folk banjo]

Yo Yo Ma 'for India'

CH: Yo Yo Ma's tweet today reads simply, "For India." It's the latest of the cellist's "Songs Of Comfort" -- a social media project he began at the start of the pandemic. At the time Mr. Ma told a PBS interviewer that he'd found himself safe at home, looking for some way to contribute, amidst all the suffering and worry. He thought of music's power to express experience long before it can be put into words. And so he took out his cello and his bow, set down his smartphone and hit "record". As he said then, quote, "this is just something that I can do." It's now well over a year since that first recording. But with hundreds of thousands of people being diagnosed with COVID daily in India alone, Yo Yo Ma continues to send out his songs of comfort. From today's tweet, this is "Sarabande" from Bach's Suite for Solo Cello No. 4.

[music: Bach's "Sarabande" as played by Yo Yo Ma]

CH: Yo Yo Ma playing "Sarabande" from Bach's Suite for Cello No. 4. It's the latest of the songs of comfort he's been tweeting out since the start of the pandemic. 

[music: Bach's "Sarabande" as played by Yo Yo Ma]

Part 3: FOA: May the Fourth, Hot Docs: Dropstones

MB Misplaced Pendant

CH: A piece of jewelry can symbolize a lot. And for Winnipeg's Leamber Kensley, one lost pendant meant a lost connection to her Métis and Anishinaabe heritage, her Wiccan beliefs, and her late sister. But thanks to a local Facebook group and fellow member Monique Van Osch, Ms. Kensley has had those connections restored -- and made a new one.

[sc]

LEAMBER KENSLEY: My pendant is a pewter haida raven. I've never seen another pendant like it. And this pendant has always felt like a really big connection for me to both my cultures. And my sisters and I were actually around a firepit because one of my other sisters had passed away earlier this week, and we were drumming for her. And I went to hold the pendant while we were speaking and it wasn't there.

MONIQUE VAN OSCH: Yeah, it was about halfway through my shift at work, and I was just perusing Facebook on my break. And came across this post in the St. Vital-St. Boniface community group that someone had lost a pendant at that location. And, like, the first thing that went through my head was just that why wouldn't I go look for this? And how happy would this person be if I found this pendant? And I'm so happy I got to meet Leamber after. Because she had the biggest smile with a mask on, but you can see from people's eyes. So I could tell that she was just so grateful, and I'm really happy that I was able to brighten up somebody's day just by taking two seconds to go look for something. [chuckle]

LK: I feel well and truly blessed. It's yet another thing of you know what? We got some really good people around us if we just look.

[/sc]

CH: Leamber Kensley is a Winnipeg woman who recently misplaced a beloved pendant. Monique Van Osch is the community member who went looking for it. They spoke with the CBC in Winnipeg.

[music: world music]

FOA: May the Fourth

CH: As you may have noticed, "As It Happens" has been experimenting with using words or phrases that sound like other words or phrases, to humourous effect. These formulations are referred to as "puns". And they are on the cutting edge of modern-day hilarity. For example, consider this bit of linguistic whimsy: today is the fourth of May. And around a decade ago, some wags started referring to this date as "Star Wars Day". As in: "May the fourth be with you!" Because in the "Star Wars" movies, the Force  enables people, and Yodas, to jump high and blow up Death Stars. Also, if you master the Force, you are good at using a fancy sword called a "lightsaber". Which is to be wielded by only the most skilled Force-havers, such as Obi-Wan Kenobi, or James Hobson. Mr. Hobson isn't in the movies. He's the leader of a group of YouTubers in Kitchener, Ontario, who call themselves "Hacksmith Industries". Last year, they engineered an actual lightsaber, which can cut through steel. So, for "Star Wars Day", here's Carol's conversation with James Hobson, from last October.

[sc]

CO: James, I have seen this lightsaber on your video, and this is not a toy, is it?

JAMES HOBSON: [chuckling] Definitely not. No. At over 4,000 degrees Fahrenheit, or about 2,200 degrees Celsius, it's pretty dangerous.

CO: [chuckling] So slightly more dangerous than something you'd find in the toy store?

JH: Definitely, yeah.

CO: Maybe just describe what this lightsaber can do?

JH: So the lightsaber is fully retractable and extendable. So with the press of a button, almost a three-foot plasma beam, that's about 2,200 Celsius appears. And at 2,200 Celsius, that's above the melting point of most metals. So we demonstrate cutting through metal siding that you'd find in a garage or a shed, cutting through foam panels, stabbing a stormtrooper mannequin, slicing off Styrofoam heads and even cutting through a quarter-inch steel plate similar to a bank vault door.

CO: OK, so when you fire this thing up, this is not something in a tube. It's a live flame, I guess. What is the actual flame that we're seeing, the white sheath that is actually cutting through things?

JH: Exactly. So it actually is using liquid propane gas as well as oxygen gas as the oxidizer. And these are mixed in a really fancy laminar flow gas novel, which produces laminar flow, which means the beam is very straight and narrow, whereas if you were to just light propane on fire, you're going to get like a flamethgower effect like you'd see inside of a barbecue. But because we're using this very fancy laminar flow nozzle, we're able to get the solid-looking beam of white-hot fire, basically.

CO: OK. Aside from being like, way cool. Why did you want to do this?

JH: [chuckling] So on our YouTube channel, The Hacksmith, we take fictional ideas from comics, movies and video games and try to make real working prototypes. And we do this as a way to inspire our youth around the world into STEM fields, science, technology, engineering and math. So what we typically do is we'll identify a project or an idea from pop culture, and we'll see what kind of technology actually exists in the real world that does something similar. And when we do that, we then try and take that technology and manipulate it to make it seem just like us. Just like how it does in the movie, in the video game or in the comic. So it's literally our bread and butter. It's what we come to work to do every day. And obviously, lightsabers are one of the most famous and most popular sci-fi technologies in the world, I'd say.

CO: For sure. But when you say that to encourage young people to get involved in science, this is not something that you would expect a kid to play with, right? I mean, this is really dangerous.

JH: [chuckling] No, it's not about teaching them how to do what we're doing. It's showing them what's possible through engineering. It's bringing your wildest ideas to life. And we find that it's very inspirational for kids because they look up to superheroes and TV shows and movies and things. So to see that using real technology and real engineering knowledge, it's possible to make some of these things into a reality, it's a very inspiring way to basically convince people that, like engineering is a cool field to get into.

CO: What you have made isn't that something you'd put together out of things you found in your basement or your kitchen, right? So how did you finance the making of this lightsaber?

JH: So we've been doing YouTube for over five years now, and we're very successful at it. We're actually the 15th largest Canadian YouTube channel, as well as being the 15th largest tech channel in the world. So we're fully self-funded through YouTube, doing advertisements and brand partnerships with other industry partners. And that's how we're able to finance these crazy projects.

CO: The YouTube channel is actually what brings in your revenue then?

JH: Yep.

CO: And do you get anyone to actually sponsor the making of one of these things?

JH: Yes and no. So we have YouTube sponsors, but when we say that, we really just mean a dedicated advertisement for a brand within the video. We're not actually making any of these inventions for sale or for anyone. They're fully our prototypes, and they stay with us.

CO: What else have you made besides a lightsaber?

JH: Things from Spider-Man wall climbers, to Batman's grappling hook. We've done Han Solo's blaster, Captain America's Shield, Iron Man's helmet, Iron Man's gantlet, Iron Man's Repulsor, the neuralizer from Men In Black. We've played with jet packs, and we're planning on doing an inspector gadget helicopter hat. There's just a never-ending supply of ideas and projects that we're going to continue to work on for our YouTube channel.

CO: You're just a grown-up kid, aren't you?

JH: Pretty much, yeah.

CO: [laughing] And so do you have a lot of other grown-up kids working with you at this point?

JH: I do. We're up to 14 full-time employees here in Kitchener, and we actually have a 13,000 square foot facility where we do all these experiments.

CO: And so what's your next movie project? I guess something from the movies. What is the next thing you want to create?

JH: We will be doing more revisions of the lightsaber because it's been so popular. But one of our biggest projects that I'm most excited for is the power loader from the Aliens movie. It's the big basically a walking yellow forklift used in space in the movie. And we're actually creating a real-life version, which is really cool because the movie's been out for something like 40 years and no one else has done it. But we're trying to ourselves.

CO: And just finally, among your audience for the YouTube channel? Do you think that you're turning on young people to the idea of being engineers?

JH: Oh, definitely, for sure. We have a testimonial stage on our website where we save some of the nicest comments. And because we've been doing it so long, we've gotten comments now where it's like, I went to engineering school because of your videos. And now I've graduated. And now I'm working as an engineer. And it's really rewarding to hear stuff like that.

CO: Well, the force be with you, James.

JH: Thank you.

CO: Bye-bye.

JH: Bye.
 

[/sc]

CH: YouTuber James Hobson of Hacksmith Industries, speaking with Carol last October -- from our archives. You can see and read more about the lightsaber on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: ambient]

Hot Docs: Dropstones

Guests: Caitlyn Durlak, Sonya Foley

CH: Every year, tourists flock to Fogo Island off the coast of Newfoundland -- drawn by its rugged beauty and an almost fairy-tale mystique. But for the people who call Fogo Island home, the forces that might lure them away -- and lure them back again -- are distinctly real-world.

[sc]

WOMAN: The rocky times in my life, I ended up home.

[a crisp wind]

WOMAN: I don't know if I would have been that strong if I never grew up the way I did.

[music: ambient]

[kids shout and cheer as stick bang together and along ice]

WOMAN: I need them to have what I had. I need them to have... I need them to have that.

[the kids shout and cheer again]

[a car signal blinks]

WOMAN: You grow up, you hit a certain age, and you can't wait to get out of this hole!

[a car in drive]

WOMAN: So I left with the father of the boys. We made life, you know, we both had really good jobs making really good money. What's there not to like?

[/sc]

CH: That's a clip from "Dropstones", a new documentary by Caitlin Durlak. The film centres on one woman's relationship with the island she grew up on, left, and then returned to, as a single mother with her two sons. It's a startlingly intimate portrait, which premiered last week at the Hoc Docs film festival. We reached Caitlyn Durlak in Toronto -- and the film's subject, Sonya Foley, at home on Fogo Island, Newfoundland and Labrador.

CO: Sonya, I'm going to start with you. We just heard a little clip of you talking, but what people can't see in that clip is how achingly beautiful Fogo Island is in all seasons. Just give us a sense of what you can see perhaps from your window when you look outside? Describe what Fogo Island looks like?

SONYA FOLEY: Well, an endless ocean. That's what I see when I look out. I'm actually looking out right now. It's endless. And today, it's... she's calm, but often, she is not. [chuckling] And also, I'm actually looking at the... one of the fish plants here on Fogo Island. It's one of thaT processes the... the cod. I'm not sure what else. although, I'm sure there's other sea things that they process over there. [CO chuckles] But mainly cod. And I see nobody. Right now, at the time, it utter quiet and still.

CO: In that clip we just heard, one part of it, you're out with the boys, your sons, playing hockey on a pond. And I think the taping is outside. You can hear the wind. There's a lot of wind, right?

SF: Oh, yes, yes, yes. Wind has to be your friend if you're living on Fogo Island. [chuckling]

CO: Now, you mentioned, and we mentioned, your boys are there with you living there on Fogo Island. You talk about growing up on the island. What was it like as a kid on that island?

SF: Looking back, it was the best life you could ever have... possibly have growing up as a child here. You had just utter freedom. You mean you just got up in the morning, and you just went everywhere. You could go in anyone's house to get a lunch. It was complete freedom. You didn't worry about your neighbours. You didn't worry about…. the only worry you really had, your parents always told you that, don't do the water. That was the one thing like don't go down in certain areas because we live alongside the ocean. And there hasn't... I wouldn't say there's a family on Fogo Island that ahas not experienced, you know, a tragedy because of the ocean, losing someone to drowning or whatnot. And that was the only thing your parents ever told you. Just, you know, when you came home to supper, and.

CO: And just make sure you come home.

SF: Yeah, just make sure you come home. And that was about it. Actually, you would hear around supper time, around 5:00, you would hear, like, mothers out on the bridge, like, singing out their names to come home for supper. I remember that distinctly. It was just a beautiful life. Just a beautiful life.

CO: And you just said... in that clip, you just said that you couldn't wait to get out of that hole. So what is it that drew... that... that got you out? Why did you... what was the dream of leaving Fogo Island that was so intense?

SF: Well, you know, we have no glitter. I mean, it's not a glamorous place, so to speak. Well, it depends on what your definition of glamour is. But, you know, you... you... we got cable when I was in grade seven. So, you know, you see the McDonald's, and you see the malls. And if you're lucky, you got to go into St. John's a couple of times or maybe you went on a vacation. And, you know, that lure of the city and all the amenities and things it had to offer. So, you know, because you're a teenager, you know? The beautiful time in your life when you think you've got everything figured out, right? And so you just I was… oh, I can't wait to get out of here, right? And then you get out of here, and then you realize, OK, yeah, I want to go back, for me anyway.

CO: You had to go home?

SF: Yeah. I'm glad I left, though. I'm... I'm really... I'm really glad I left. But when I had the boys... but when you have children, for me anyway, everything changed. Everything changed when I had... when I had the boys. I remember distinctly coming home one summer with the boys. And my oldest son, Sean, went to go riding bike. I'll never forget it. And he's like, well, how far can I go? And because up in Grand Prairie, I was like, OK, you can't... you can go this far, and not past this house. And I remember we were on the road, but just going for a walk. And I was like, well, here you just... just go on your bike. And then, I didn't notice something in Grand Prairie. But when I came home, I noticed that they... they would say Mum instead of Mom. That kind of... that kind of made me think a lot about like, how do I want the boys to grow up, like?

CO: You wanted them to call you Mudder?

SF: Yes. And they do. And actually, on their phone, when the phone rings now, it's so funny. They have hearts and M-U-D-D-E-R comes up. [both chuckling] Mudder!

CO: I'm going to just bring in Caitlyn Durlak, who is the filmmaker, the one who made this documentary is on the line. Hi, Caitlyn.

CAITLYN DURLAK: Hi. How are you, Carol?

CO: I'm well. We're speaking... you're in downtown Toronto. You couldn't be further away from where Sonya is right now. How did you... how did you come to connect with the island? What brought you to Fogo Island? And also, to Sonya?

CD: I had heard about the island through the National Film Board of Canada. They had done a whole series of films there. And then, fortunately, in 2015, a friend of mine was working at the Fogo Island Inn. And they needed some help over the summer, in the busy season, for serving in the restaurant. And I quickly snatched up the chance to go. And that's where I met Sonya. And it was so clear to me how passionate and contagious her energy was. And I knew right away she just clearly seemed to me like a movie star. [chuckling]

CO: Well, speaking of movie stars, we should point out the Fogo Island Inn, in case anyone doesn't know, is a very glamorous place, isn't it? I mean, it's just a gorgeous inn, where people who go there pay 3,000 dollars a night for the experience. And lots of... of glamorous people, the rich and famous go there. Why did you want to see another side of Fogo Island?

CD: I felt when I was there as a tourist that there was sort of a disconnect between their perspective of seeing this beautiful place and the wonderland that it was and sort of the reality that it took to live there and the resilience of the women who I was working with, what they described their childhoods to be like, what they... some of the challenges, the fact that you can't give birth on the island, there's no secondary education on the island. Sonya studied to be a social worker, and there are no jobs for social workers on the island. Yet, I kept hearing all these stories of women who wanted to come back. And that this was the place that they needed to be in to raise their kids and to teach them a type of independence and freedom that truly formed their identity. And I also learned, too, that the island shaped them in ways that I couldn't really identify with myself. I have never once thought of my suburban town to be a place that I could trust on and come back to if I was going through a hard time in life. And Sonya had told me that the island was the only place she knew she could count on for sure. And that was so awe-inspiring for me.

CO: It's one thing to be drawn to a place for the summer, [chuckling] work at an inn. It's another thing to decide that you're going to move in with a family for a year and film them. [CD chuckles] I mean, so how difficult was that to spend the year with people who are not family, and, well, keep your camera rolling the whole time?

CD: Well, I wish that I had lived with them for a full year. In fact, I came back and forth to the island over the course of a year and a half or perhaps two years. I came every season. And I remember the first time I was there was in the actually early spring, but it felt like the dead of winter. They had one of the biggest snowstorms they had had in 10 years. And I was snowed in at Sonya's house. And so we spent probably a week together, waking up, making toast, watching TV in bed, chatting while she showered. [chuckling] It quickly became very intimate. And I felt like one of the kids. I felt like one of the family members in the household. And it was very welcoming. I think it was something that as a tourist, I had wanted. I wanted to know what it was like to be in the boat and pull a cod out by hand. I wanted to be on the back of the skidoo, scooting over a frozen bog looking for foxes, you know? So I felt deeply honoured to have been given that kind of access and privilege to film so intimately this beautiful family.

CO: Sonya, back to you. This filming of you and your family, there it is. There you are. You're in the bathroom. You're in bed. You're with your children. There are moments where you get angry, moments you're happy, all kinds of things about your life. What was that like to have this film made really up your nostrils?

SF: [chuckling] Well, actually, I didn't know the film was going to be entirely about me. I... I had thought that I was going to be different women. And I think we were months and months and months into it, and I said, Caitlyn, is this only about me?! [CO chuckles] And she was like, yeah! [chuckling] And I was like, oh! I had no idea. So then there I was into it, and I was like, well, oh well, you know? And I really pride myself on being authentic. I mean, like is just hard enough. Just trying to put up pretences is just not worth it. So I just…. she filmed and I just went with it.

CO: But this is at a time, I guess, a pretty key moment in your life when you were coming back to Fogo Island, when you were settling in, what was going on in your own personal life?

SF: Oh, well, that was probably a very dark time. That was a very dark time for me. I had always... it was always in the back of my head that if I had children, I would move home, if I could. You know, you have to support yourself and get a job. But the catalyst for me was that I was in a very, very unhealthy relationship. So that just kind of... and I am resilient, and I didn't go back and forth. I just made my decision, and I went home. And it was the toughest thing I've ever done. It was... it was really hard. It was a hard time. But, you know, being home made it, you know, cushioned the blow, I would say. Home always done that for me. Home always done that for me.

CO: Right. But going home, the whole idea of going home for Newfoundlanders, it's really a complex thing, isn't it? Because people want... they want to go home. But there has to be something there, there has to be some kind of commerce, some chance for jobs. And that actually started to exist on Fogo Island when you were going back, right?

SF: Well, yes, at the time. I mean... I mean, I'm sure a lot of people heard Zita Cobb, she's from here. And I mean, when the inn was being built, there was so much career opportunity because even the... the other things that came from the inn, like other businesses started to emerge and other opportunities.

CO: You mentioned Zita Cobb. And, of course, this is not someone from away who came to Fogo Island and built an inn. This is a woman who left like you did, became a billionaire, though, and she came back and invested. It's quite a... quite an extraordinary operation, including, I guess, the family also, the Cobbs also, invested in returning a kind of a fish fishing operation. 

SF: Yeah.

CO: A hand-line cod catching and fish plant. And that's also been a big source of jobs, eh?

SF: Oh yeah, and there's an art residency program here. I mean, Zita's mind is brilliant. She really is. She's really a brilliant woman. And she's very common. I don't know if that's a Fogo island term, but she's very common, meaning she's very local. I mean, she went away and made a... she's a multimillionaire, but she's very common. She lives in a saltbox house there. And so, yes, that afforded me opportunity.

CO: You are listening to "As It Happens", and we are talking about a film and the Hot Docs Festival called "Dropstones", and I have Caitlyn Durlak, who is the filmmaker, and Sonya Foley, who is the star [both chuckling] of the documentary, who is featured in this beautiful story of this island. I just want to ask you, Caitlyn, about the title. Why did you call it "Dropstones"?

CD: Dropstones is a geological phenomenon that happens when a piece of rock is carried on an iceberg from one destination to another where it's not natively found, and then it lands on the shore and it stays there forever. And it just felt like such the perfect metaphor for Sonya and her family. Not only had they, you know, originally come from Ireland, but this is... this is the place that will always be home to them. And this is where they feel like permanent fixtures in the landscape.

CO: You mentioned the that you were partly inspired by the National Film Board documentary. There's a whole series of them made in the 1960s about Fogo Island. But you decided something was missing from that series that you wanted to make up for. Can you talk about that?

CD: Absolutely. [chuckling] You know, it's very common to come to the island as a filmmaker and be excited and inspired. And I think the history and the history in the fishing industry is what attracts most people and the fishermen there. And for me, you know, I thought that was exciting. But really, I wanted to know about the women and the children behind that. And how they helped to support and maintain that lifestyle and what that meant for them. And I think it's... it's important to recognise that there's a whole family unit there and that there are these women who... who helped to maintain that.

CO: I mentioned... mentioned that Sonia is the star. But of course, the children, Luke and Sean, are big stars. And these two wonderful boys. And you got very up close and personal with them. Obviously, they... this whole idea of an observational film where they forget you're there worked with these boys because they... they're so comfortable with you, obviously. And you get to see moments when they're scared of whales that have surfaced near. Where they're line-fishing, and catching cod, and... and then going after the cod tongues and cheeks of the fish heads. [all chuckling] I mean, was it... was it challenging to try and get into the lives of Luke and Sean?

CD: Absolutely not. [laughing] I think I became an eleven-year-old girl all over again, and just lived through their eyes and was excited to experience anything they were doing. I remember when I came back in the Summer, I pulled up to Sonya's house, Sanya wasn't home yet, and the boys were out in the front lawn with a lawn mower, trying to... trying to cut the grass that was taller than myself, much taller than them, and fighting over what would be the best way to do it. And it was just so exciting, and cinematic, and so natural. And I think, you know, filming them, there's a scene where they're building a fort together. And it was just, for me, the perfect example of why Sonja wanted to raise her kids here. There they were learning conflict resolution and fighting over what's the best way to build a fort. And then arguing to the point of tears. And you know that that can be hard to film sometimes when you're when you're there just to observe. But you have to remember that... that this life would have happened without you there. And it was just exciting to see how they did resolve their arguments. [chuckling] I felt like I grew larger as a part of my childhood self grew during the time I spent together with the boys.

CO: Sonya, have you seen the film?

SF: [chuckle] No, I haven't. I'm actually a little uncomfortable with it. So I actually haven't. But I'm going to. I'm going to make myself watch it. Caitlyn sent me like all old versions of it, like when it wasn't edited, and… but I've never seen the final one yet, no.

CO: And how is it... how is it what you have seen... how is it to see yourself and your kids and your life through Caitlyn's lens

SF: Just, well we definitely didn't put on airs. I tell you that. We definitely…. it was... that is life. That is our life. Now they're teenagers. So that's... that's a whole new complexity. But what was it like? Watching yourself on screen, for me, is odd. But what... what I did take from it was that, yeah, that's my life. That's pretty much…. that's... you pretty much see, [chuckle] it's like looking... like literally looking inside my house or wherever or two, and it's very real. She did capture us, for sure.

CO: You're a mudder on Fogo Island?

SF: Yeah, I'm a Mudder on Fogo Island. A mudder to two teenage boys now. And oh boy, yeah, the conflict's still... still going on. It's... it's... you know, it's tough being a mom, and even tougher having to be a mom and dad. And single parenting poses a lot of challenges. And I wouldn't do it right now I don't think if I never had extended family here, like grandmothers and grandfathers and... and friends that are just like family, you know, I rely on a support system so heavily.

CO: Well, it's a... it's a beautiful place. I can imagine it has its challenges. And it was great to be introduced, to be inside your family. Sonya and Caitlyn, thank you for taking us there.

CD: Thank you so much, Carol.

CO: Thank you both.

SF: Thank you.

CH: Filmmaker Caitlyn Durlak was in Toronto, and Sonya Foley was on Fogo Island, Newfoundland and Labrador. "Dropstones" streams until May 9 at the Hot Docs film festival website: www.hotdocs.ca.