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The AIH Transcript for August 25, 2020

Hosts: Helen Mann and Chris Howden

HELEN MANN: Hello, I’m Helen Mann, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I’m Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

HM: Mic drop. a Vancouver sports journalists confronted a group of anti-gay demonstrators blasting hateful messages in his neighbourhood. The altercation got violent. He tells us from his hospital bed why he doesn't regret stepping up.

CH: The coming storm. The Conference Board of Canada revises its COVID-19 economic outlook — and says it's a lot worse than they first thought. The board's chief economist explains why Alberta will be hardest hit.

HM: Eradicating a virus. The World Health Organization declares Africa officially polio-free. A survivor in Nigeria describes the years he's spent convincing people to get immunized.

CH: Confronting a crisis. Ottawa is funding safe supply pilot programs for drug users in Toronto, amid an escalating opioid epidemic. But one of the doctors involved says even extra funding won't meet the demand.

HM: Dis-a-pear-ing act. A Vancouver homeowner offers some biting commentary after a realtor showing her house first eats a pear from her backyard tree, and then picks every single one for himself.

CH: And... dis-a-pee-ringing act. Amsterdam is trying out a new solution to public urination, by encouraging people to relieve themselves in specially designed planters instead.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that suggests they give in to pee-er pressure.

Part one: Justin Morissette attacked, Africa Polio-free

Justin Morissette attacked

Guest: Justin Morissette

CH: When Justin Morissette intervened in an anti-gay demonstration in Vancouver's West End this past weekend, he didn't expect to end up in a hospital bed. But the Sportsnet host says he has no regrets. Just a whole lot of pain. Mr. Morissette had his leg broken in the altercation that followed. And police have recommended charges against two of the men involved. We reached Justin Morissette in Vancouver.

HM: Justin, how are you feeling today?

JUSTIN MORISSETTE: You know, I’m in a considerable amount of pain, but I finally was able to get a good sleep last night for the first time in about 72 hours. So I’m feeling not bad this morning.

HM: Tell me about the moment you decided to approach these demonstrators. What made you do it?

JM: Well, first and foremost, [chuckling] they were just so obscenely loud. I had just got home from work and was about to have a barbecue on my patio. And probably about 100 feet from where they were set up on the street. And as I got closer, I started to hear just how hateful and despicable their messaging was. And I saw a lot of pain and hurt and anguish on the faces of the people, you know, my neighbours, people in my community who were on the street corner watching and being forced to listen to this.

HM: Now, without actually using the offensive language, characterize for us what these people were saying?

JM: Just basically that, you know, repent before Jesus and all these things because you're going to burn in hell for your lifestyle and for who you love. And, you know, they were saying it in much more offensive ways than that. But just very kind of virulent anti-LGBTQ language. And, you know, it's no surprise that they set up in a neighbourhood that is about as inclusive as it gets in Vancouver — in the Davie Village — which is supposed to be a safe space for our LGBTQ community. I'm not a gay person, but I do feel a great sense of community in the West End. And, you know, I was just not going to allow these people to come in and make my neighbours feel threatened and unsafe in the place where they live.

HM: So you went up to them. What did you say?

JM: [laughing] Well, I can't say what I said on the radio, but I will try and keep it clean. I said, get the F out of here, that you're not welcome here, that this kind of thing has no place in our neighbourhood. Go somewhere else. Take this somewhere else, because this is not welcome here. Get the F out of here.

HM: So how did things become physical?

JM: Well, they had no interest in leaving, obviously. And I asked them at the very least if they could turn their amp down, because it was just obscenely, ear-splittingly loud. And they had no interest in doing that either. So I forcibly tried to get at the amp, get at the P.A., and either turn it down or turn it off or unplug it. I was kind of shoved back from being able to get at it. I kind of just realized that the thing that I could grab was their microphone, because what uses a P.A. system if you don't have a mic to plug into it? They'd been pushing the mic into my face so that what I was yelling at them would get picked up on the P.A. I just snatched it right out of his hands and was basically just going to take it over the corner and throw it in the garbage. At which point the two men who had, you know, been on the mic, these hate-mongers, just one of them jumped on my back and tried to take the mic back. I was able to kind of just shrug him off, and he fell to the ground, at which point his partner in crime put me in a full Nelson lock and put his right leg behind my left leg and used his, you know, leverage in the full Nelson lock to wrench my body against his leg until my left leg snapped in half.

HM: So what has the reaction been like since this happened?

JM: I mean, by and large, the messages that I'm receiving, whether it's on Facebook or Twitter, or Instagram, are incredibly supportive. My brother set up a fundraiser to cover kind of my cost. [breaking down] And just the outpouring of generosity and the way that people have been giving to that is just really overwhelming, honestly. I've received a lot of messages from people saying that they have a son or daughter who is gay, or trans, or closeted, and that what I did means the world to them. And [deep breath] obviously, that's a really sweet thing to hear as well, because, you know, there are a lot of moments I've been in extreme pain for the last 72 hours. And at the height of that pain, it's really easy to feel regret, and feel that I just should have minded my own business and stayed out of this. But, you know, every time I start to feel that way, I will get a message like that or even from my support staff here in the hospital. Yesterday, I was taken down for a C.T. scan to look at my knee and how it's recovering. And the nurse who took me down was a gay man. And he asked me, are you the boy from the newspapers? And I said, yes. And he just put his hand on my arm and said, thank you for sticking up for us. And, you know, when I hear things like that, it's hard to feel regret. Because these guys have been doing this for a very long time. It's sad that it took an incident as extreme as mine for these men to finally be banned from even setting foot in the West End in Vancouver. They are now forbidden from entering that neighbourhood. But, you know, it's going to prevent them from doing what they did to me or even worse to someone else down the line.

HM: You speak of regrets and potential second thoughts as you play this through your mind. And I know that you have also had responses from people who argue that you instigated a fight, that these individuals were acting in self-defense because you took their microphone. What do you say to that?

JM: That that's absolute lie. These are professional trolls. The reason that they have cameras set up filming them at all times is because they want a fight so that they can turn around and say that they are being persecuted for their beliefs. I know exactly what they want. When the man who broke my leg initially got in my face and challenged me as to what place I have to tell him that he's not welcome in my community. I know for a fact that he wanted me to fight him --

HM: But in stepping forward and confronting him, did you not maybe give him what he wanted?

JM: No, I don't think so. I think I was sticking up for the people in my neighbourhood, people who were you could see in their faces who were being hurt by what they were hearing. And this is, again, as I said, a repeated issue that's been going on in the West End all summer long. I think I was doing something that needed to be done a really long time ago, which is that people step up and tell these guys that this is not acceptable behaviour, that we will not tolerate this in our neighbourhoods, that you're not welcome here. You know, did I take his microphone out of his hand? Yes, I did. He decided to do what he did. And I guarantee 1000 per cent. You do not do a move like that. You do not do what he did to my leg without knowing that what happened to me is going to be the end result.

HM: Police have recommended charges of aggravated assault and mischief against two of the men involved in the altercation. What more would you like to see in terms of an official response to all of this?

JM: I think that there needs to be some kind of changes to the bylaws. It never should have gotten to this point. You know, even just the noise itself should have been enough to get this thing shut down. They never should have been able to continue coming back here again and again and again. because this was always the end goal to have, you know, a big incident like this. So I guess when you said, you know, didn't I give them what they want? On some level, maybe I did. But also, they're never going to be allowed back into my neighbourhood ever again. So I guess I got what I wanted too, didn't I?

HM: All right. Justin, I hope you recover quickly. And sorry to hear you're still in pain. Hopefully that will subside over short-term to.

JM: Hopefully. Fingers crossed. Thank you.

HM: Thank you. Bye-bye.

JM: Bye.

CH: Justin Morissette is a sports journalist in Vancouver. That's where we reached him. Vancouver police couldn't confirm how, exactly, Mr. Morissette's leg ended up broken. But in a statement, they told us the Crown is reviewing possible charges against two men. And that VPD hate crime investigators are looking into the case, too. Police also confirmed that the two men arrested Saturday are barred from entering the part of Vancouver where the incident occurred.

[Music: Folksy guitar]

Jacob Blake

CH: Jacob Blake's family is praying he makes a full recovery. It's not clear that will happen. The family of the Black man — shot multiple times by police in Kenosha, Wisconsin have been speaking out — expressing their shock, hurt, anger and frustration. He is still in the hospital. And his father told a Chicago newspaper he fears his son will not be able to walk again. In the wake of the police shooting, buildings and vehicles in Kenosha have been damaged during protests. Here is Mr. Blake's mother, Julia Jackson, speaking to the reporters today in Kenosha:

JULIA JACKSON: As I was riding through here to the city, I noticed a lot of damage. That doesn't reflect my son or my family. If Jacob knew what was going on as far as that goes, the violence and the destruction, he would be very unpleased. So I'm really asking and encouraging everyone in Wisconsin and abroad to take a moment and examine your hearts. Citizens, police officers, firemen, clergy, politicians, do Jacob Justice on this level and examine your hearts. [sound: people in the background hum in agreement] We need healing. As I pray for my son's healing, physically, emotionally and spiritually, I also have been praying, even before this, for the healing of our country. God has placed each and every one of us in this country because he wanted us to be here. Clearly, you can see by now that I have beautiful brown skin. But take a look at your hand, and whatever shade it is, it is beautiful as well. [sound: a voice in the back proclaims amen] How dare we hate what we are. We are humans. God did not make one type of tree, or flower, or fish, or horse, or grass, or rock. How dare you ask him to make one type of human that looks just like you.

CH: Jacob Blake's mother, Julia Jackson, speaking to reporters in Kenosha, Wisconsin. Fred VanVleet is also thinking about Jacob Blake. This afternoon, the Toronto Raptors guard fielded questions about the team's upcoming series. But Mr. VanVleet said instead of feeling excitement for the games against the Boston Celtics, he's thinking about the video taken of Mr. Blake being shot by police. Fred VanVleet was asked how he is making sense of it. Here is his response — after he turned that question back on the reporter.

FRED VANVLEET: At some point, like, we were the ones always with the microphones in our face, we're the ones always who have to make the stand. But like, you know, we're the oppressed ones and our responsibility falls on us to make a change to stop being oppressed, you know what I’m saying? That’s what it boils down to. That’s my point for asking you that question. At what point do we not have to speak about it anymore. Like, are we going to hold everybody accountable, or wejust going to put the spotlight on Black people, or Black athletes, or entertainers and saying what are you doing? What are you contributing to the community? What are you putting on the line? And then us too, we've got to take responsibility as well. Like, what are we willing to give up? Do we actually give a [expletive beep] about what's going on? Or is it just a quote where, you know, Black Lives Matter on the backdrop, we wear a t-shirt. What does that really mean? Is it really doing anything? So I don't have the answer for you today, but I'll speak for myself. I'm in a different place today, you know? Just emotionally speaking,

REPORTER: Has there been any conversation within your team or among players there about a potential boycott of games?

FV: We had a meeting this morning. A number of things have been discussed. And I'll keep that between our team. But, you know, we're dealing with it in real-time. And I think it affects everybody differently. And, you know, it's pretty fresh on my mind. And I'm sitting in front of the camera, so I'm just speaking as I'm going. But, yeah, there's a lot of different things being discussed.

CH: That was Toronto Raptors guard Fred VanVleet speaking at a news conference this afternoon near Orlando, Florida.

[Music: Uke!]

Africa polio-free

Guest: Misbahu Lawan Didi

CH: Leaders across Africa are celebrating a victory today: the continent is now free of the polio virus. After decades of effort, the wild, circulating form of the virus — which makes up the vast majority of cases of the debilitating and sometimes deadly disease — has been eradicated. Nigeria was the last African country where polio was endemic. But thanks to the efforts of doctors, aid workers, and community leaders, its immunization program succeeded. Misbahu Lawan Didi was part of that drive. He's the president of the Nigerian Polio Survivors Association. We reached him in Abuja.

HM: Mr. Didi, how did it feel for you to hear this declaration from the World Health Organization that Africa is now officially polio-free?

MISBAHU LAWAN DIDI: I am very excited, very, very happy to have the news, and I know to only me, I believe almost all the Nigerians, especially polio survivors, were so excited to hear the news.

HM: This is a disease that once left 75-thousand children in Africa paralyzed every year. What is it like to think about the children who have been saved from polio thanks to the efforts of people like you?

MLD: I think it’s the collective efforts not only by us in Nigeria, but globally. People who are lucky to be saved, you know, with the disease, I think, I'm so happy for them. And some of us who are unlucky to have contacted this disease at a younger age, it is unfortunate, but at least we have utilized that to show other people the reality.

HM: So you acknowledge you feel unlucky to have contracted polio when you were young.

MLD: Yeah, of course.

HM: But you've taken that and tried to make something good come from it. Tell me why you decided to be part of this push to get people immunized?

MLD: Yeah, because I know the problem I have encouterd, especially the discrimination, the challenges in movement. You know, the healthcare and also the education systems, you know, did not make a special provision for people like me. So I have to join the normal and the able people in anything I’m doing. And also I know financially, it is a big event because even The World Health Organization and the World Bank say the poor of the poorest are people with disability. And that's also you know, a worry to me. And that is why I said, you know, I have contracted this polio virus, and I want to give my support to people who no longer have order, people that experience what I did.

HM: How old were you when you got polio?

MLD: I'm less than two years, I contacted polio, so I was told by my parents. And there after, I can no longer move my legs. That’s my position up to now. I can no longer walk.

HM: So you tell us that you felt discriminated against as a child in school. It's been hard for you to work. What effect has all that had on you as a person, as you've grown?

MLD: Well, you know, in the community, right from my childhood, I looked different. Because at that time in my community, I'm the only one. You know, the community does not agree that it’s a virus. Initially, it’s a spiritual thing that people believes in. So people are very careful. Some, you know, have pitty, you know, that you cannot do it, don't go to school, sit at home, don't do this, don't do this. So some were being denied the right to do.

HM: You say that people in Nigeria were skeptical about this being a virus, and felt it was perhaps a spiritual thing that was affecting people. But what were some of the other factors that made it so hard for people to agree to get immunized when other parts of Africa were already quite well ahead?

MLD: Many, you know, we have different communities, you know, different states and different religions. So each community, they have what they believe in. For reasons, most of the northern states believes that it’s a Western manipulation trying to reduce the number of our country. So many people reject it because they want to believe the Westerners are trying to reduce our number. And some people believe why government giving only polio virus free while healthcare you have to pay for it? So the suspicions by the populations grow and grow. And most especially, you know, in the northern states. So those are some of the fear many people decided not to take the polio vaccine.

HM: What kind of things did you say to people in trying to convince them this was not a Western plot? It was not that the vaccine was targeting Nigerians and that, in fact, someone like you had survived it, but had been dealing with the after-effects?

MLD: Yeah, you know, seeing is believing in many people, you know, think the virus is not true. But seeing us is an advocacy. Secondly, we ask any parent, do you want yourself to be like us? Nobody agrees. Everybody says, no, no, no, no, OK. The only solution for you to protect the children is for you to allow us to immunize your children. Because the effects of polio can never be cured, and most of them, 99 per cent, accept our advocacy.

HM: You also founded a para soccer federation. What role did that play in the fight to eradicate polio?

MLD: Yeah, I am president of para soccer for the region and the chairman of the National Polio Survivors of Nigeria. So I now see the need for us to join the two organizations in order to advocate for people possible to see the reality of polio. Secondly, the para soccer is good for our health. There are also, you know, easy mobility to all because I use roller skates, which is more faster than many of us crawling on the bare ground. So we utilize that advantage. And, you know, I use it to advocate for the eradication of polio.

HM: There are only two countries in the world right now still reporting cases of polio — Afghanistan and Pakistan. Given what you have achieved in Nigeria, are you hopeful that polio can be controlled in those countries as well?

MLD: Very, very, very, very, very hopeful. I am very hopeful because I have seen the reality. Five continents have been able to be polio-free. Why not only one? I am optimistic that soon, we’ll get out of it in Afghanistan and Pakistan because almost everybody will now focus on their countries to ensure that, you know, polio is eradicated.

HM: MR. Didi, congratulations on this effort. And thank you very much for talking to us.

MLD: Thank you very much. I appreciate. Thank you very much.

HM: All right. Bye.

MLD: Thank you.

CH: Misbahu Lawan Didi is the president of the Nigerian Polio Survivors Association. He was in the capital, Abuja. You can find that interview on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih

[Music: Bright piano]

Realtor eats pears

CH: When you're a realtor showing a home, you're on your own. It's just you in a stranger's house, pretending to be excited about crown mouldings. It can be solitary. And it can be lonely. I guess that's why Peter Yang made the unusual decision to pear up. And he really peared up. Last Friday, the Vancouver realtor was showing a property. He and the prospective buyers were all in the backyard when Mr. Yang pointed out a lush fruit tree, laden with pears. And to demonstrate what a terrific bonus this would be for his clients if they bought the house, Mr. Yang grabbed a delicious pear and ate it. Now, at this point, the realtor had a choice: be a responsible professional, or give in to temptation. And he picked a side. In fact, he picked all the sides. According to the woman whose house he was showing, he got a bunch of plastic bags, returned to the tree, plucked every single remaining pear from it — and took them home. This was all captured by CCTV cameras. And it did not impress the homeowner. Nor did the fact that a contrite Mr. Yang brought all the bags of pears back. Now, he and the realty company he works for have apologized. And he may face some disciplinary action. Because working alone should mean you're immune to pear pressure.

Part two: Canada economy report, Toronto safe supply

Canada economy report

Guest: Pedro Antunes

CH: In April, analysts said they knew COVID-19 was going to slam Canada's economy. Four months later, they're warning it's twice as bad as they thought. The Conference Board of Canada released a report this week, warning that Canada is heading for an eight-point-two per cent decline in GDP by the end of 2020. For the province of Alberta, it's predicted the decline will be worse, because of plunging oil prices. Pedro Antunes doesn't enjoy being the bearer of bad news. But he is the chief economist at the Conference Board of Canada. We reached him in Chelsea, Quebec.

HM: Mr. Antunes, it shouldn't come as a surprise to Canadians that our economy is suffering because of COVID-19. But for those listening, just how dire is the situation now?

PEDRO ANTUNES: We've been forced to shut down the economy because of the health risks. And I think we've done a fairly good job in comparison to other countries at containing the virus overall. So that's been very positive. But it has come at the consequence of a real slowdown in economic activity. And we've gotten a handle now on how deep this has been. You know, we know it was very quick. And we saw the implications of that in March and April of this year. In fact, we know the second quarter now is probably going to look like a 12 per cent decline. So you can imagine the economy operating, you know, essentially 12 percentage points or at 88 per cent of where it was prior to this shutdown.

HM: Your forecast this week is actually twice as bad as you initially thought in April. So in the past four months, what's happened that you didn't anticipate?

PA: Initially, we had assumed that we were going to put the measures in place to shut down economic activity and that we would resume normal activities fairly quickly afterwards. Now, of course, we're getting a much better sense of, you know, we're going to be living with COVID-19, the risks associated with this virus, for a lot longer than we initially anticipated. And that means that the economy is going to operate well below normal for an extended period of time.

HM: Now, when we look at the forecast for all the provinces, you have Alberta as the bleakest with real GDP set to plunge by eleven-point-three per cent. Can you put that in a bit of context in terms of what that's going to look like for Albertans?

PA: I've got to say that I think for all the provinces, this is very deep. You know, for Alberta, we're seeing an even deeper decline. And that's because they're really getting hit with a double whammy. Not only are they facing the similar shutdowns that we're seeing across Canada, but on top of that, we're seeing a situation where demand for oil is down substantially. But not only that, revenues are down for oil producers. It also has an impact on the capital spending budgets for a lot of the oil-producing companies. And that really is what affects the local economy. It's all of that activity associated with drilling, with construction, with repairs and spending on the capital side.

HM: We've seen this debate in countries around the world, Sweden, the U.S., the U.K. as well, on whether the cost of shutting down the economy is worth it in terms of the damage it causes to people's lives? I mean, Quebec started reopening in May. What did you find out about that province's choice to do that so early?

PA: You know, we'll know in retrospect, once this is long past, what have been the best choices around closing the economy and containing the virus versus, you know, the costs of that in terms of not only economic activity, but you can imagine, you know, keeping kids out of school. You know, the healthcare system with respect to other non-essentials. But I can tell you that certainly, Quebec did open earlier. We did see employment resurge in Quebec quicker than we've had in other provinces. You know, we've seen more cases in Quebec than elsewhere. But certainly, the containment going forward has happened. You know, the debate for me is more one around where do we support the economy? And I think if you want a comparison here, you know, in Canada, we've chosen to support the direct support to households. The programs have been lauded. We've been very effective at getting the money out into the hands of households. In Europe, they've chosen, in many countries, they've chosen to go with the wage subsidy as their primary focus. And they've been more successful really at staving off higher unemployment rates in some of those countries. That's something certainly that we've been pushing for more so the second half of this year.

HM: Your outlook addresses the importance of companies, make it easier for employees to work from home. For those who are fortunate enough to be able to do so. How much of a difference has that made from what you can tell?

PA: You know, we always refer back to the resource sector. We talk about manufacturing. These are really important sectors. But the growth really has been in the last number of years, has been on the service side of the economy in professional scientific, technical services, financial services, things like architectural services, engineering services, et cetera. And those sectors have done really well at holding on to not only the demand for their products, but also being able to manage their workforce with telecommuting and with the technology that we now have.

HM: We are, you know, told so much depends on how we handle the fall and whether there isn't a major next wave. But if the trajectory we're on right now continues and COVID-19 cases remain relatively stable, can you offer any insights into how long it will take for the Canadian economy to recover?

PA: Personally, I don't think we'll fully recover until COVID-19 on a global basis is fully behind us. And this is because, of course, Canada's an open economy, we're export-dependent. We need the U.S., for example, to recover fully before we're going to see in all our manufacturing and are essentially products that service the U.S. consumer fully back. So that's just one challenge, of course, even within our domestic economy, when you think about anything associated with accommodation and food, you know, entertainment, arts, all of these all of these sectors are not going to start to easily come out of this until we're, you know, fully away from the virus threat. We don't see essentially the economy getting back to pre-COVID levels until the end of next year.

HM: Mr. Antunes, thank you very much for your insights today.

PA: Oh, you're welcome. It's a pleasure.

HM: OK. Bye-bye.

PA: Bye-bye then.

CH: Pedro Antunes is the chief economist for the Conference Board of Canada. We reached him in Chelsea, Quebec.

[Music: Folksy guitar]

Erin O’Toole

CH: Name recognition is supposed to be everything in politics. But Erin O'Toole doesn't totally agree with that old adage. The Conservative Party's new leader says he might appeal to Canadians precisely because he's not famous or flashy. And he says his party is ready for a possible fall election. He took questions from reporters today for the first time in his new role. The CBC's Hannah Thibedeau asked Mr. O'Toole how he'll be different than his predecessor, Andrew Scheer — who failed to beat Justin Trudeau in 2019?

ERIN O’TOOLE: I've a lot of respect for Andrew, and I thanked him for his service. He's an important member of the team. I have a track record of serving Canada and getting things done. That's why I'm not famous. I'm not well-known. I get things done. I don't drop the ball. And I've always fought for Canadians since I left high school and joined the military, as a volunteer, as a parent, as an MP, a backbencher who worked my way to the front. I have no famous name. I just fight for Canadians. And after the pandemic, with record deficits, with the challenges we face in the world, we need a fighter. We need someone who came from the middle-class to serve Canada ethically and professionally at home and on the world stage. That is what Canadians will get with me. I think we're tired of a directionless, divisive and ethically-challenged liberal government.

HANNAH THIBEDEAU: I want to follow up by asking you, during the campaign, you ran the true blue campaign, which attracted that right Conservative vote. But right away in your speech, you were trying to appeal to a broader audience. And some in the Conservative Party have already said you're moving to the mushy middle. How do you respond to that?

EO: I think that's not true. I'm quite true blue today. I'm wearing my blue. I'm going to be a bit of a seat change for Canadians because you know what? I respect people even when I don't agree with them. I want a mandate not hiding my track record on all my voting records as being a pro-choice MP by being pro-LGBT. I also will stand up for four small business owners for Canadians from coast-to-coast. I want a strong mandate. And I'm not not afraid to fight for things I believe in. And I'm not afraid to respect people that have another point of view. That is why the Conservatives can win when we respect one another in our coalition, when Canadians respect people in other provinces, even if they've never met them. That needs to be the return to politics. I've never seen the country more divided after four years of Mr. Trudeau. There was no national unity crisis when we were in government. There's a serious one now, and that's why we need a fighter, and we need someone that can build bridges and respect other points of view. That's my track record. And as people get to know me, they will see that's how I will be as prime minister.

CH: Conservative Party Leader Erin O'Toole answering questions from the CBC's Hannah Thibedeau today.

[Music: Instrumental]

Toronto safe supply

Guest: Nanky Rai

CH: In Toronto, some drug users will soon be able to get a doctor's prescription for opioids. Ottawa is funding two safe supply programs in the city — where overdose deaths have climbed during the pandemic. In July, there were 27 suspected fatal opioid overdoses in Toronto. Dr. Nanky Rai is the primary care physician at Parkdale-Queen West Community Health Centre in Toronto. She's overseeing its safe supply program.

HM: Dr. Rai, what does this funding mean for the people that you treat?

NANKY RAI: This is definitely welcome news. This funding is going to allow us to be able to increase the number of people that we can provide safer supply to. And we also know that we're gonna be able to utilize this funding to build a better evidence base so that we can demonstrate the effectiveness of safe supply.

HM: How will it work in practical terms? How does someone get prescription opioids when they come to you?

NR: So we're really trying to capture people who are at imminent risk of death as a result of the use of the illicit street supply, as well as people who are at imminent risk of disability. All of those folks would be given access to the program, they meet with clinicians, but they also get connected to our primary health team with harm reduction services. We're not just providing access to the opioids, even though that is a most fundamental aspect of our program. But we're also trying to meet people and address all of their health care needs as well.

HM: How is what your prescribing safer for drug users and less likely to lead to overdoses?

NR: Part of the reason for why we're prescribing this is because they get access to a pharmaceutical-grade opioid. They know exactly what's in it. And so one of the things that I have seen is a dramatic improvement in their overdose rates. All of a sudden, people are no longer needing to be dependent on an illicit drug supply that's incredibly poisonous. And not just because of the toxic levels of synthetic opioid. Lots of other substances are being put into the illicit drug market. And every time someone's buying something from the street supply, they have no idea what they're getting. And sometimes it's incredibly potent. Sometimes it's not potent at all. It's really a Russian roulette in terms of what people are having to use. And immediately, we find a degree of stabilization in people's lives. People talk about how much less distress and anxiety they feel on a day-to-day basis and feeling a sense of autonomy and dignity to be able to piece out what they're using because of what they've picked up from the pharmacy every day.

HM: Um-hm. Now, you mentioned COVID-19. What effect has the pandemic had when it comes to the drug supply that these folks can access in normal channels?

NR: We saw that a lot of messaging around physical distancing meant that people who use drugs were really making themselves as scarce as possible. One of the fundamental things that we tell people is to make sure that you're using with somebody else so should you overdose, someone can respond with oxygen, with CPR, with naloxone. And we found that people were pushing themselves to use more alone because of the fear of being able to be exposed to the virus. And we also found that the illicit drug supply became even more unpredictable. Also, the rates of overdose and the type of overdoses are becoming more complex. And the chief coroner in Ontario has also described that, you know, we're seeing about 50 to 80 people dying per week in our province, and that's already higher than the number of people that were dying weekly in our province in 2019. And we knew 2019 was actually the worst year yet. Nothing at all to be proud about, we finally actually surpassed the overdose rates in B.C. And so we're seeing the crisis just worsen within our communities across this province.

HM: Now, last year, you already started prescribing opioids before the government announced it was going to provide this money. What difference have you seen it have, your decision to do this, in the lives of the drug users who visit the clinic?

NR: You know, I started prescribing in February of 2019. And the reason why I did is because I could no longer kind of sit by and felt that it was really my moral and ethical responsibility to intervene if I had the ability to do so. And so I started with a handful of people that really were at imminent risk of death. And that's been all the people who've been accessing this program. And what I've seen is remarkable. Everything from mental health improvements to physical health improvements. And people are deintensifying their own drug use. We're seeing people coming into the program explicitly saying that they wanted to continue injecting, just not the illicit drug market. And now we're seeing people actually move over to using their medications orally. Remarkable improvements in that way. That was unexpected for us.

HM: You mentioned B.C. We saw the province there give doctors the OK to prescribe opioids earlier this year. And even though that's been happening, we're still seeing these huge numbers of deaths in the province. Why do you think that's happening even with access to safer supplies?

NR: Yeah, and I think there's a number of reasons. The uptake of that is not as enormous as we would like to see. It’s a number of prescribers who were already kind of doing this work, were open to doing this work, who have taken that on. At the same time, we have to recognize we can't medicalize our way out of this overdose crisis. The criminalization of people is ongoing. And we need to continue to fight for decriminalization to really reduce overdose deaths.

HM: Critics have warning that dispensing drugs this way through safe supply could actually contribute to continuing addiction, to more overdoses potentially, and not reduce harms to drug users because it's not trying to stop or discourage addiction. What do you say to that?

NR: I think what I would say to that is we've seen what has happened as a result of all the push around the overprescription of opioids, and we've really swung so far to really demonize the drugs themselves. And so I think we really need to have more nuanced conversations around this. And actually having an environment that's grounded in harm reduction and grounded in the dignity of people who use drugs has had such positive health consequences. This is one very concrete way that we can actually rebuild and repair people's relationships with the healthcare system and bring them back into care.

HM: You are only one community health centre in the west end of Toronto. People are dealing with issues about opioid use across the city. Are you concerned you may see a flood of new clients coming to your services who may not be able to help them?

NR: Yeah, that's definitely a huge, huge issue that all of us have been contending with for many months now. And why so much of my work is actually speaking with clinicians and other community health centers and other hospital settings to really be able to support other prescribers to do this, because there is no way our one centre or for agencies who have received the funding can actually meet the needs of the city. And it's very, very challenging to say no to someone when we know that they're at such imminent risk of death. And so while we welcome the funding, we've recognized that pilot programs and short-term funding is not a solution. And we really need to push to ensure that this is something that can happen in a much broader way in the healthcare community.

HM: Thank you very much.

NR: Yeah. Thank you for having me.

HM: Bye-bye.

NR: Bye

CH: Dr. Nanky Rai is the primary care physician at Parkdale-Queen West Community Health Centre. Last week, Ottawa announced more than half-a-million dollars to pilot a safe supply program, starting in September. You heard mention of B.C. during that conversation, where today, officials revealed that there were 175 suspected illicit drug deaths in July. That's just two deaths short of the grim monthly record set in June. At a news conference today, Guy Felicella spoke. He's a peer clinical adviser with the BC Centre on Substance Use and the Overdose Emergency Response Centre.

Does anyone care that people are dying at these unprecedented rates? Does anyone care about the trauma experienced by people who use drugs and those who work on the front lines and live this crisis every single day? Does anyone care that each time someone turns to the street drug supply, that they're doing so knowing that this could be the end. Does anyone care that some moms that have lost children to overdoses and drug user activists have walked away from the table because of the lack of urgency in addressing the contaminated drug supply? I'm someone who's lucky to have survived this crisis, after experiencing six overdoses in my lifetime and being saved each time. Now, being years in recovery, I know how challenging it is. There are so many people I know that are waiting for the same chance that I've had. But we're not giving people that chance, and we're losing hope. Here are the facts. Overdoses are up. Overdose deaths are up. Homelessness is up. Poverty is up. None of these are new problems. And this crisis has been years, decades even, in the making. No single politician or political party owns this. In fact, every level of government, past and present, owns this because of the one thing that they share has been a collective lack of bold action or a clear plan to prevent the crisis from happening in the first place. And we need to end this crisis now. To me, and to the many people I know who use drugs or who are struggling with addiction or who are trying to maintain their recovery, but are terrified that relapse might represent the end of their lives, the policy change that needs to happen immediately is safer supply. The absence of a policy to support access to a legally-regulated, safer supply is killing people. We can't — I can't — accept that 170-plus deaths every month is just the way it is.

CH: That was Guy Felicella speaking today, following BC's announcement of 175 overdose deaths in the province in July.

Pee pots

CH: The city of Amsterdam has a problem: "wild peeing". A phrase that conjures ecstatic freedom and untamed, small-scale waterfalls. But "wild peeing" is just an exotic way of referring to the unexotic act of urinating. outside. in a city. So Amsterdam is giving something new a go — in an effort to rein in feral urinators, and funnel their energies to a more productive end. The city has installed a number of "GreenPee" urinals around town. At first glance, they just look like big planters, with pretty little hemp plants growing in them. Until a wild pee-er walks up and starts irrigating the flowers. According to the inventor, the eco-urinals really are number one: They contribute to their own positive pee-cosystem — creating fertilizer, watering the plants of course, and providing pollinator-friendly green spaces. They may also help reduce the damage to historic buildings caused by all that rented beer. And, the city hopes, they'll help to prevent the peeing-related deaths that occur each year among men who fall into canals while looking for a suitable outlet in the dark. So far there are a dozen such elimination stations in action. A true innovation in public urination. And, where wild peeing is concerned, just the pee-ginning.

August 25, 2020 Episode Transcript

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