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The AIH Transcript for February 18, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight...

CO: Closed door negotiations. A Mohawk chief suggested protesters stop blocking the trains. Instead, they started blocking his door.

CH: Base of isolation. After spending two weeks cooped up on the Diamond Princess cruise ship, a Canadian permanent resident resets the quarantine clock, this time on a military base in California.

CO: Scout's dishonor. Facing hundreds of sex abuse lawsuits, the Boy Scouts of America has filed for bankruptcy -- one former scout says this will make it easier for him and other victims to finally get justice.

CH: Helping a guy out. A homeless man crawled into a garbage bin for safety and warmth, got trapped and spent two days inside until our guest came along.

CO: He let his words speak for themselves. Author Charles Portis, who wrote the bestselling western True Grit, rarely gave interviews. But that doesn't mean he didn't have a lot to say. Tonight, we pay tribute to the late, great American novelist.

CH: And out of the woods. 50 years after she lost her boyfriend's class ring in a Maine department store, it turns up in a Finnish forest. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition. Radio that loves to see a woman getting the old band back together.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Former Boy Scout says U.S. bankruptcy filing 'only the very beginning' for victims

Wet'suwet'en: Kanesatake Grand Chief

Guest: Serge Simon

CH: Justin Trudeau is putting his faith in dialogue. The Prime Minister addressed the House of Commons this morning about the Indigenous led blockades which have snarled rail traffic from coast to coast. Mr. Trudeau appealed to both Wet'suwet'en and leaders in BC and Mohawk leaders in Quebec and Ontario to sit down for talks. And he warned about the risks on both sides of failing to find some sort of compromise.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Do we want to become a country of irreconcilable differences where people talk but refuse to listen, where politicians are ordering police to arrest people? A country where people think they can tamper with rail lines and endanger lives? This is simply unacceptable.

CH: But while Prime Minister Trudeau was calling for dialogue, Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer has heard enough.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW SCHEER: Mr. Speaker, that was the weakest response to a national crisis in Canadian...[Applause] I listened to the prime minister's word salad just now, Mr. Speaker, and at least two key things were missing: a clear denunciation that the actions of these radical activists are illegal, and some kind of an action plan that would put an end to the illegal blockades and get our economy back on track.

CH: Serge Simon is the grand chief of the Kanesatake Band Council. At a press conference this morning, he suggested that it might be time for his fellow Mohawks to end their rail blockades in Ontario and Quebec. We reached Grand Chief Simon in Kanesatake.

CO: Grand Chief Simon, what have you been hearing from protesters since you made your call for the blockades to come down?

SERGE SIMON: Well, I had some band members at the office, they chained the band office doors and not letting anybody coming in to do their work. And I went to meet with them a little while ago and they're saying I acted unilaterally when I was trying to explain that I was acting in what I thought was in the best interest of our community, that a voice of reason, one of compassion over the situation. But they perceive it more like I'm giving up. And that's not the case at all.

CO: They're angry with you.

SS: Of course.

CO: You said in the in the press conference that they've made their point that the blockades have served good purpose. What have the blockades accomplished at this point?

SS: Well, right now, there's going to be a dialogue with the Wet'suwet'en people, and I think the dialogue has to be done in an atmosphere of respect. I think it's going to achieve its goal. I always said that even if they did consider to take the blockades down, it doesn't mean that they're not going to be brought back up again and possibly somewhere else. So it's really not giving in. It's simply giving a chance for the process to move forward so that the Wet'suwet'en people can at least be heard.

CO: But it was interesting that Perry Bellegarde, the son of the First Nations grand chief, he was asked if he thought that the blockades should come down as well. He carefully skirted around that. He did say that nothing could change until they saw something substantive and meaningful he said. Do you think there has been something substantive and meaningful that's come out of this standoff over these past weeks?

SS: I can't say that I have, but it could be -- the problem is the blockades could be making it more difficult for any discussions or any progress to be had. That's why I'm just asking if they would consider that the point was made. And that maybe there is another way we could help those Wet'suwet'en people advancing their issues.

CO: At the press conference this morning your fellow Mohawk Grand Chiefs, they reminded us of the standoff at Oka and Ipperwash, where as you know that people died there. So what concerns do you have if these blockades stay up?

SS: All my fellow grand chiefs made an excellent point, because we understand full well how peaceful protests -- it's not up to us how they evolve. And that's the risk that we see. Because, look, I'm from Oka, I was here during 1990. I was here. I have lived here my whole life. And yeah Ipperwash as well. So this is what worries me the most is that we started off peacefully, our intentions are right, but it's often our choice on how it gets resolved.

CO: What's your feelings about what Mr. Scheer said today in other places about what he refers to the illegal radical activists -- what is Mr. Scheer's strategy, do you think?

SS: Mr. Scherer I think is playing dangerous politics with a delicate situation. And I don't think he's learned anything about the past. Whereas Mr. Trudeau is trying to use those lessons of the past and trying to show a little bit more restraint. Whereas Mr. Scheer wants to push the issue, and he doesn't seem to care what the results might be. Like Mr. Scheer said "illegal activism." There is nothing illegal about First Nations people defending their land.

CO: Do you think that that kind of talk that we're hearing from Mr. Scheer will encourage the blockades and the protests to continue as they are?

SS: It might harden that position of the protesters. It won't leave much room for dialogue the way he's talking. So not quite sure exactly what his intent is, but we can pretty well guess.

CO: Do you think it might escalate situation?

SS: If Mr. Scheer was the one in power it would have escalated by now for sure.

CO: Is it not also possible that the blockades would come down out of fear of what a government might do if it did, they might send in the army or the police or whatever that may be that kind of talk would have done something?

SS: For one thing, this I know for sure is that the guys that are on the blockades, really, they're not afraid of that. They're not afraid of that one bit. I can guarantee that the protesters aren't afraid of any retaliation -- if the police are sent in. I think they are just going to meet it head on. But that's where the danger of escalation comes in. So again, instead of having dialogue and trying to find a peaceful resolution to it, the real risk of escalation is there.

CO: Do you think that Canadians are aware of this in a way they wouldn't have been if these protests had not happened -- if the blockades hadn't been set up? Do you think that it's actually brought an awareness of what the Wet'suwet'en are saying?

SS: Oh, absolutely. I don't know if people weren't paying attention...I don't know where they've been. But, yeah, it's bringing a sharp focus on the issue with the Wet'suwet'en people, but also with native issues across the country.

CO: And so what would you say to the protesters if you could be up there at those blockades now?

SS: Well, I'd ask them right out: Do you think we've achieved what we wanted to achieve? If not, well, then they'll go on.

CO: But...

SS: Just that they did well. And I respect them and I support them.

CO: And what would you advise them?

SS: I would advise to listen closely to what's going on within the politics, because it might be a sign of where this whole thing is going and that we should prepare in the eventuality that does escalate.

CO: Grand Chief Simon, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

SS: Anytime.

CH: Serge Simon is the Grand Chief of the Kanesatake Band Council.

[Music]

Boy Scouts bankruptcy

Guest: Robbie Pierce

CH: In the face of a mountain of claims of sexual abuse, the Boy Scouts of America is filing for bankruptcy. The historic organization is being sued by former scouts who say they were abused by scout leaders. Hundreds more boys and men have come forward in the last year with complaints. The Boy Scouts organization says the bankruptcy will help them compensate victims. But the filing also raises obvious questions about the future of the scouts, which is still one of the largest youth groups in the United States. Robbie Pierce is a former Boy Scout who says he was abused on a camping trip in 1994. We reached him in Los Angeles. And a note to listeners that this conversation includes a discussion of sexual abuse.

CO: Robbie this bankruptcy announcement today came with an apology from the Boy Scouts of America. What does that apology mean for you?

ROBBIE PIERCE: You know, I never expected to get that apology. Even as we were hoping to make this organization take some responsibility, there was a part of me that feared that they would avoid an outright apology. And so it's been pretty meaningful.

CO: And you think that it shows that the organization and its leaders have taken responsibility?

RP: No, I think that this is only the very beginning of taking that responsibility. This is not enough. It's not going to fix or undo anything that was done by the organization. But it is the beginning of a new day with the Boy Scouts. And it's very encouraging for me that we have them on record taking responsibility, acknowledging that there were things that they could have done to prevent the scale of this abuse and that they didn't do it. And next, we will see them in bankruptcy court.

CO: And the head of Boy Scouts of America, Roger Mosby, he says he believes that bankruptcy will actually help victims, help compensation with victims. What do you hope that this bankruptcy filing will do?

RP: I think that's true. I think that there are both positives and negatives to what's happening because on one hand it means that individuals can no longer sue the Boy Scouts, which is a way to get another kind of closure for victims. But this also means that as a whole, the group of victims of the Boy Scouts of America are able to move forward. And I believe that we will be able to get some sort of settlement.

CO: The Boy Scouts of America acknowledged that there were thousands of perpetrators into this kind of abuse and obviously thousands of victims of it. Each one of those represents a story like your own, right. Every single one is somebody who is affected by that. Your experience of this abuse came in when you were 13 years old on a scout camping trip. Is that right?

RP: Yeah, that's right. I have a brother just a year younger than me, and we were both at a scout camp up in the Sierras. And one evening, shortly after we had we had gone to bed, a few of the scouts became sick. I was among them. We were just throwing up and, you know, probably ate something not great at dinner. So the five of us went up to the medic lodge and the medic wasn't there. And instead there was a man we recognized him as one of the leaders of the Boy Scout camp that we were staying at.

CO: He was one of the volunteers?

RP: I believe he was an employee, actually. And so he had us come into the medic's lodge one by one. And he had me disrobe when it was my turn. And he told me he was checking for a hernia and fondled me for a little while. I remember him saying, are you shaking because my hands are cold or because I'm not a real doctor? That stayed with me for a long time. And when I was done, I went out and one of the other boys went in. And we went back and we didn't talk about what had happened. And it was years before I came to understand just how frightening that was for me and how I had bottled a lot of things up and how it really just did a number on me psychologically. I had thought that what had happened was my fault for a long time. And I didn't understand that it was a thing that had happened to more kids. And it wasn't until up to a year or two ago when I was listening to the radio and heard a story about other victims coming forward that I realized that there were many of us. I didn't even then realize that it was thousands of us. But I knew there were many. And I thought I should add my voice. And so I called the phone number that I heard on the radio. And I understand that there are thousands of us and it really breaks my heart.

CO: I'm so sorry to hear all that.

RP: Thank you.

CO: Right now, though, there is an organization. There are lawyers. There are those who are going to pursue the Boy Scouts of America for what happened to all of you. Many are saying that the Boy Scouts of America, they can't be reformed. This has to be the end. This is not the whole structure -- the whole organization of the scouts just lends itself to this kind of abuse. What do you say to that?

RP: There has to be a way to work with children, to have adults guiding children and and teaching them and helping them to have positive experiences. So I don't believe that nobody could do it. I don't know if the Boy Scouts at this point could do it. If they really were willing to execute a complete overhaul that it will take. They might not be the ones to do it. I think you have lost a lot of public trust even in the last day, even today for this. I have had so many positive formative experiences in the scouting program, but I would trade them all up to get rid of what they did to me or to any of the other boys. So that's what will be decided next through this bankruptcy hearing, is whether they will be able to continue to function under some new parameters or whether they will be done for. And frankly, all I care about is that this doesn't happen to more children.

CO: Robbie, I really appreciate that you speak with us and share this. I'm sorry to probe into some really really painful memories for you. But thank you.

RP: I really appreciate your reporting on this. Thank you so much.

CH: Robbie Pierce is a former Boy Scout. He says he was abused during a camping trip in 1994. He was in Los Angeles. The CBC has not independently verified his account. You can find that interview on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Lost ring

Guest: Debra McKenna

CH: In 1973, when Debra McKenna was 16, her boyfriend, Shawn, gave her his class ring. She cherished it. And then she lost it. But Ms. McKenna and Shawn stayed together. They got married and started a family. In 2017 Shawn died of cancer. And then last week, Ms. McKenna got a memento of her late husband that she had long ago given up on. A package came in the mail, and inside it was that lost ring. That was obviously a surprise. But even more surprising, in fact, completely baffling is where that ring was found. We reached Debra McKenna in Brunswick, Maine.

CO: Debra, what was it like to hold your husband's class ring after 47 years?

DEBRA MCKENNA: Amazing. I was in disbelief. And, of course, I was inspecting it just to make sure it truly was his ring and legit. And it is it everything that it was when I had it, when I was 16.

CO: In 1973.

DC: Yes, exactly. [Chuckles]

CO: What does it look like?

DC: It is a white gold, pretty hefty men's class ring. It has a carving of a ship because our class mascot is a ship -- shipbuilders. And then on the other side, it says Morse High School in Bath, Maine. And then the stone was blue.

CO: And how do you know it was his?

DC: It had his initials on the inside of it. And he is the only one in his class who has those initials. And it just had an S and an M inside.

CO: Do you remember when he gave it to you?

DC: I don't specifically remember. I know that it was after he graduated. So it had to be in the fall -- the end of the summer or the fall. He was going off to college. And he gave it to me then, and I lost it soon after that. [Chuckles]

CO: And so he went off to college. You had the ring and how did you lose it?

DC: Well, I went to Portland, Maine, which at that time was a big city for a Bath girl. We were shopping at the local department store, which was Porteous, Mitchell and Braun, which is now the Maine Arts Academy. But I went into the restroom and took it off. Didn't want to get that wet so I set it on the side of the sink and washed my hands and walked out without it.

CO: And that was it. You didn't see it again.

DC: That was it. Went back minutes later and it was not there. And, of course, frantic, looking everywhere, thinking it must have gone down the drain. It could have been anywhere. I could not find it anywhere. And there was no one else in the restroom at the time.

CO: How did your boyfriend Shawn react when you told them that you had lost it?

DC: I didn't want to tell him. But once I told him he was so cool about it. He just said, you know, it's just a ring. It's a material thing and always can be replaced -- don't worry about it. And he was very logical about stuff. And he said, well, it'll turn up if it's going to turn up. And then we forgot about it.

CO: He sounds like the kind of guy you should marry to. [Chuckles]

DC: Exactly. Exactly.

CO: So he told you that if it's going to turn up, it'll turn up. Where did it turn up?

DC: It turned up in Finland of all places. Not in the US, but in Finland.

CO: Okay, so let's hear the story of how it managed...who founded in Finland? What's the story there?

DC: The young man who founded Marko, apparently he's a welder and he and his little boy usually go out in the woods and look for metal. He's got a metal detector. And he usually comes up with maybe some artifacts. And he happened to go out this particular day without his son. His son is, I believe, 4 years old. And he was in the woods and he went over the soil. And his Geiger started beeping. He said that he dug down like he normally does, three or four inches and still nothing. But it was really reacting quite strongly. So he dug down another four inches and found the ring.

CO: And he finds this ring in Finland. And what did he have to do in order to get it back to you?

DC: Well, he was very interested because it had the ship on the side. And he's a welder. And there's a lot of welding when you're shipbuilding. And he was very interested in it. So he started researching it, realizing that Bath, Maine is on the side of it. So he started there. And Morse High School was the name. And then we have a very active alumni with Morse High School is one of the most active in the US. And we all have a website -- each year has a website. And so he contacts that 1973 administrator of that website on Facebook. And she contacted me and said, I think we found Shawn's ring. Can you tell me if you lost it and where he lost it? And I told her the story and she was incredulous. She said that's not where it's turned up.

CO: And this man obviously went to great deal of trouble to track down the owner.

DC: He sure did. And he was very excited about it. And once he started talking with the administrator, he offered to send it back to them, to the alumni association. And she encouraged him to send it back to me directly. And the class ended up paying for that postage. And so he went to the trouble of getting it taken care of and sent to us and gave us the tracking numbers. So it was fun to watch it track from Finland all the way to the US. It took almost a month to get here.

CO: You opened that package and there it was in your hand.

DC: There it was wrapped in a paper towel. It's a little bit worn, but it's not...I mean it's not brand new by any stretch of the imagination. And it looks like it's been worn. It has a bit of wear on it. The stones are chipped a bit. So I would love to know exactly what the path was.

CO: And you're not able to share this story with your husband?

DC: No. My husband sadly passed away in 2017 from cancer. He had esophageal cancer for six years and passed away a couple of years ago. Three years ago.

CO: I'm sorry.

DC: Thank you.

CO: But you had 40 years together.

DC: We sure did. 40 great years plus. So we're grateful for that. And we had a very unique love and respect for each other and trust and life together. We kept saying, boy, we've had a really good run of it, haven't we?

CO: Okay, so the question is, is that why do you think now? What's your feeling about why this turned up in your life now?

DC: That's the question I keep asking myself over and over, trying to figure out what's the reasoning. And I don't know if you had read anything else, but I had mentioned that my husband doesn't believe in coincidences, that everything happens for a reason and that there are no coincidences. This is how it's supposed to line up. So I'm thinking that he's letting me know that, yep, he's thinking of me -- and our love was pure back then and new, and now it's come full circle and it's okay for me to get on with my life.

CO: Debra thank you for sharing this story with us.

DC: You are welcome.

CO: Take care.

DC: Okay. Thank you.

CH: Debra McKenna was recently reunited with a class ring she lost 47 years ago. We reached her in Brunswick, Maine.

[Music]

Part 2: Diamond Cruise passenger starts 2nd quarantine in California after tense trip

Coronavirus: U.S. quarantine

Guest: Spencer Fehrenbacher

CH: It seems that wherever they go, passengers of the Diamond Princess cruise ship can't escape the threat of coronavirus on the weekend. Hundreds of Americans were evacuated from the quarantined cruise ship to the US. But little did the passengers know that they would be taking that evacuation flight with some Americans who had tested positive for the coronavirus. Meanwhile, on board the cruise ship, 542 passengers have tested positive for the virus so far. And Canadian passengers are still waiting for their evacuation flight. Spencer Fehrenbacher is a Canadian permanent resident and a US citizen. He was evacuated on Sunday. He's now on Travis Air Force Base in California, where he'll spend another 14 days under quarantine. We reached him there.

CO: Spencer has a field to go from, one quarantine on his ship to another quarantine on US soil?

SPENCER FEHRENBACHER: Well, Carol, I think if you were going to ask me yesterday, I probably would have said it's been an emotional and somewhat rocky experience. But waking up here day two, I realize I'm actually very thankful for a couple different reasons that I am doing a second quarantine here in the United States.

CO: And you are now at Travis Air Force Base. Is that where you're staying? Is that where they're keeping the people that they've taken off the ship?

SF: Yes, ma'am. We are split, as I understand it, we're split between a couple different bases. The main two being Travis Air Force Base here in California and then a second base in San Antonio, Texas.

CO: What was it like on the ship -- first of all let's go back to that? I mean, that was quite a stressful two weeks that you just spent.

SF: It was. The first three days were very difficult simply because myself and the three people I was traveling with, all four of us were identified as high risk when the quarantine began. So that first night, we were actually given the test and they did not tell us whether or not we were positive or negative. And so we basically had to wait for three days with daily announcements of 10 new cases and then 20 new cases and then a third and final day 41 new cases. And it was only then that I actually just learned from news sources that all of those initial samples had been processed and that that was the reason why I knew definitively my tests came back negative.

CO: Right. So that was you knew that you were negative then, but now the clock starts again for the next 14 days and they'll be watching for any symptoms. Is that right?

SF: That's absolutely correct. I literally just had my temperature taken five minutes before our call.

CO: I understand that on-board was not just those being evacuated, but those who had tested positive. Is that right?

SF: Yes, I'm a little unclear as to exactly how that worked. But I do know that there were people on board who had tested positive. And the only reason that I know that is when we landed, there was a moment where before we got off the plane, somebody asked, you know, hey, excuse me, where is this passenger? They said this person's name. And person in the row directly behind me raised their hand and somebody in a full hazmat suit with pressurized oxygen within the suit came walking up to this person and said, you and your husband are going to be staying on the plane and going to Omaha. And at the time, I had no idea what that meant. But I learned later on after hearing some personnel here speaking with a group of passengers that Omaha was the destination for anyone who had tested positive.

CO: And these people were sitting just behind you?

SF: Literally an airplane seat right behind me. You know, three feet behind me for eleven-twelve hours.

CO: And were you wearing a mask the whole time?

SF: I was, absolutely. That was something that I was a little taken aback by as myself and my cabin mate -- we both, from the time we got on that plane, tried to keep our masks on you know, 99.99 percent of the time. However, most of the passengers would, you know, take their masks off and eat some snacks or have some water. I was a little shocked by how knowing kind of what we had all collectively been through for the last two weeks, how cavalier a lot of these other people on the plane were about, you know, spending 20 minutes eating a sandwich and then putting their mask back on without any concern for what they might have just breathe in.

CO: Okay. In addition to people just sitting amongst you who were infected, there was a quarantined section of the airplane. Is that correct?

SF: There was. It was basically a thick, translucent plastic taped in a cube with duct tape in the middle of the airplane, drapes down and then resealed again at the floor of the aircraft.

CO: And so was that alarming for people to see that quarantine area?

SF: You know, it's tough to tell. When I got on the plane you know, we'd already been on a bus for the last six hours. It was about 3:30 in the morning by the time we got on the plane. And the people that I spoke with, conversations were very minimal. And I mean I can't imagine it wasn't alarming. But by that point, I think everyone was kind of in survival mode. And so once you start seeing hazmat suits it takes a lot to make you more concerned than you already are.

CO: Okay. So you were six hours on a bus. Some of the people who were infected, were they with you?

SF: It's hard to know definitively, but there were a number of people coughing. I mean you hear people hacking up along and you're just thinking, "Okay. Don't think about it." Because there's nothing you can do at that point.

CO: Six hours on the bus. And how many hours in the air?

SF: I believe it was about 11 hours.

CO: Oh my gosh. And so you have no idea what you've been exposed to just in the travel from this ship to the Air Force base in the US?

SF: That's exactly right.

CO: I want to ask you, I know you're a permanent resident of Canada. Did you think that Canada should have reacted much more quickly as well? Canada reacted only after the United States did.

SF: It's really difficult to say as someone who feels very fortunate to call myself a Canadian permanent resident. The last thing I want to do is put myself in a place where I'm critical of what the Canadian government has done. But I think it's pretty clear to see that once the United States took that first step in kind of ordering the evacuation, that I believe Canada was second to follow suit and see that Canada took that second step before the United Kingdom, before Australia. And now all of these other countries that are falling in line. If nothing else, shows Canada's commitment to taking care of its people.

CO: Well, Spencer, I appreciate you bringing us up to date on that extraordinary transition from one to the other end. And I hope the time passes quickly. Thank you.

SF: Thank you very much, Carol. Thanks for having me on.

CH: Spencer Fehrenbacher is a Canadian permanent resident and a US citizen. We reached him on Travis Air Force Base in California under coronavirus quarantine. For photographs taken on his long journey from Japan you can go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Rod Blagojevich

CH: In their past lives, they were an investment banker, a police commissioner, a state governor and the owner of a football team. But recently they've been better known as convicted felons. Today, however, they were part of a group of 11 people granted clemency by US President Donald Trump. Among them was Michael Milken, who was known in the 1980s as the junk bond king, and former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich. The Democratic governor was eight years into a 14 year sentence after he was convicted of multiple corruption charges, including trying to sell Barack Obama's vacated Senate seat for cash or a lucrative new job. While Mr. Blagojevich will leave prison, his conviction will stand. Back in 2011 after Rod Blagojevich's sentencing, As It Happens, guest host Helen Mann spoke with Democrat Jack Franks. At the time, he was an Illinois state representative and a member of the legislature's impeachment committee. Here's part of the conversation from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

JACK FRANKS: I think justice has been done today because of the deliberate acts of bribery and extortion and fraud that ultimately led to this day. They do warrant the punishment tantamount to the serious nature of the former governor's crimes.

HELEN MANN: The judge said that he took a number of things into account in delivering that sentence, one of which is that he believes Mr. Blagojevich has now accepted responsibility for what he did. Do you agree?

JACK FRANKS: I guess maybe the most he can. All of my interactions with the former governor, he just seems so immature that I didn't think that he could accept responsibility whatsoever. But hopefully today the gravity finally descended upon him. And I hope that he has now, for his sake.

HELEN MANN: Part of his defense, it was an allegation that it was his advisors who pushed him to do this as well, that he never actually pocketed any money. Should that have been taken into consideration, do you think?

JACK FRANKS: That's ridiculous. He had a bunch of yes-men around him. And if anyone disagreed with that, me, he called them disloyal and threw him out and went after them personally. He knew exactly what he was doing every minute of the day. And he was a former prosecutor himself. He knew right from wrong. He was more interested in his own self-interest than those of the citizens he was elected to represent. So I think that's a ridiculous argument and I'm sure the judge saw right through it.

HELEN MANN: Where do you think this has left the people of Illinois when it comes to the government of the state and I guess politics in general?

JACK FRANKS: I think people are disillusioned. And you'll see that. And then the low voter turnout that we've had in our primary elections. In the last primary elections, for instance, in my area, we had 13 percent voter turnout. I think we could lose an entire generation of young people to public service. You have to remember that in Illinois, our last two governors are now in federal prison. Four of our last nine have been convicted. You have a higher chance of being convicted and going to jail in Illinois if you're governor than if you commit a murder.

HELEN MANN: Is that true?

JACK FRANKS: Yes. There's a lower clear rate for murders than there is for people who are former governors that have gone to jail.

CH: From 2011, that's As It Happens guest host Helen Mann speaking with Democrat Jack Franks about the 14 year sentence given to former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich. Today, Mr. Blagojevich was one of 11 people granted clemency by US President Donald Trump.

[Music]

Dumpster rescue

Guest: Lisa Kusch

CH: On a quiet cul de sac in Saskatoon's north end, things seemed pretty normal last week. The daily routines of work and school were playing out as usual. Neighbours made small talk. And while regular life continued, no one noticed that one man on the street was fighting for his life, trapped inside a dumpster. And if it wasn't for Lisa Kusch he may not have survived. Ms. Kusch lives on that cul de sac. We reached her in Saskatoon.

CO: Lisa what did you hear outside your home last Friday that first caught your attention?

LISA KUSCH: The first time that I heard a noise, it sounded like kids yelling. And we live about half a block from a school. So I thought, oh, it's about 3:30-4 o'clock. And I thought there was just some noise from people moving back and forth. And I kind of dismissed it.

CO: But what was it about that those sounds that made you think you had to investigate further?

LK: Well, a few minutes later, it happened again. It was a little louder and it sounded like yelling. And it wasn't just the little bit of commotion that I heard before. It caught my attention. And so then I went looking and I didn't see anybody. It was quiet. So I thought, oh, all right, they've moved on. Whatever was happening is not happening now. And I came back in the house. And then the third time I heard it. It was desperate. It was somebody yelling. And I could hear that desperation in the voice. And that's when I went running out and stood in the cul de sac and kind of tried to looking all 360 degrees, trying to figure out where the sound was coming from because it was really disorienting, kind of bouncing off the houses. And that's when I noticed there was a hand coming out of the Loraas disposal bin. And it was a man's hand and he was trying to stand up.

CO: So from the first time you heard something to when you actually realized what the sound was coming from -- how long had that been?

LK: Probably an hour, because between the second time and the third time when I didn't hear anything, I came back in the house and I made tea and I thought, oh, well, that's nothing, I don't need to be worried about that. And I sat down and was relaxing. And then when I heard it the third time, I just went running. So he had been calling for help on and off. And that's what I heard.

CO: Was it an open dumpster? Could you look inside and see what was there?

LK: Correct. It was an open dumpster. There was no lid.

CO: And who was this man?

LK: His name was Rubin. I never met him before. He's not from our community. He had been walking through the neighbourhood on Wednesday night. He said he missed his last bus back to where he's been staying in downtown Saskatoon and found himself with nowhere to be. And it was -30. So when he saw that dumpster and looked inside and there was drywall from someone doing home renovations, he crawled in and covered himself up and fell asleep in the bottom.

CO: He couldn't get out or what?

LK: Right. He slept for he doesn't know -- he thinks maybe 12-18 hours because of the cold. And then when he woke up, he realized he was so weak, he couldn't yell. He couldn't get up. He hadn't had anything to eat or drink for a long time. And it was still quite cold. So he was yelling on and off, but he didn't have much of a voice. And then on Friday, as the weather started to warm up, he got a little bit more mobility and started trying to come up to his knees and cause a bigger stir.

CO: And was there was much debris in there. Was stuff piled on top of him?

LK: There wasn't. It's about a third full. So I think that's part of why he couldn't get out. Once he got in and there was enough debris in there to cover himself up to protect himself from the cold but when he wanted to get out, there was no way to get his legs back up over the ledge because he was so weak. So I had to get garbage cans and put them in there, extra ones for him to create little steps to get them out.

CO: What condition was he in?

LK: I would say early stages of hypothermia. His hands and his feet were turning pretty blue, very weak. I gave him some food and water when he came out. It took him quite some time to be able to stand up. And then we got him into the car. He didn't want to go for medical attention, but he had shared that he was new to the province. So I'm not sure if that was because he doesn't have coverage yet or if because he just didn't want to go to the hospital.

CO: And the people whose dumpster it was had they not noticed -- the people who were using it, didn't they hear and notice anything?

LK: They actually hadn't. The family that's there actually works some shift work and they weren't home on Wednesday evening. And then when they did a little bit of renovations earlier the next day and they tossed some things in -- like he thinks that that's when he was sleeping. He remembers feeling something kind of bump on him while he was sleeping and not responding. So they didn't look in because it's quite a tall bin. So they were mortified. The neighbours were mortified when I let them know what had occurred. And as such now all of us in our little section of the street have been taking turns checking the bins so that if that happened to anyone else, they would not have to spend the night in there.

CO: His name's Rubin. Is that what you said?

LK: Yes.

CO: Where did you take Rubin?

LK: Well, Rubin asked me to take him to a homeless shelter in downtown Saskatoon called the Lighthouse. And he told me that there were people there that knew him and that he would have support there.

CO: Do you know how he is?

LK: I don't. I've tried checking in there. And the one counselor that I have a connection with isn't in today. And they won't release information because I'm not family. So hopefully down the road, I'll find out what happened to Rubin. He was a really sweet man, very kind person. That was part of the reason why I was so mortified that someone was out in my band 30 feet from my front door for two days and I didn't know. And if I really think about it, I was kind of caught in this complacency in my very warm comfortable home, doing my work and hearing the noise outside on and off for those two days and not responding because I didn't think it really applied to me. That I didn't really need to check up on whatever was going on outside of my house. And it's just really shaken me how complacent we can be when our needs are met and 30 feet away, there's someone freezing in a dumpster.

CO: But in fairness to yourself, you didn't know until you saw that hand that...

LK: That's right. There's just so many people, maybe 50 people a day, walk past my home because of the school next door. And none of us heard him.

CO: And the truth is had you not heard him, he could have died in there.

LK: Yes. It's -30 again today.

CO: What do you think this says about how we should engage with people and how we can actually -- well, you think it's nothing to do with me, but you know, it does?

LK: It's a community responsibility to just take care of each other. Be on the lookout. Check your yards. If you're leaving containers open, understand that that might be a safe place for someone, even if that's not your intention. And to keep a lookout for one another.

CO: Lisa, I'm glad you were there.

LK: Me too.

CO: Thank you.

LK: Thank you.

CH: Lisa Kusch lives in Saskatoon. Last week, she helped rescue a man who was stuck in a dumpster for two days. The CBC reached out to the emergency shelter that took in the man Ms. Kusch helped last week. But the shelter told CBC it does not give out personal information about its residents.

[Music]

Charles Portis

CH: When a great writer dies, the first thing we do is go to the CBC archives, which go back decades. But when you search Charles Portis, you get nothing. He didn't give interviews. In fact, he doesn't seem to have much liked talking to strangers, period. His friend Nora Ephron told The New York Times that even when he was a reporter at The New York Herald Tribune in the 60s, he didn't like being reached. She said "He was a newspaper reporter who didn't have a phone. The Trib had to make him get one." So even back then, the pattern was there. Well, despite his stubborn refusal to promote himself, you probably know his work, especially his 1968 novel about a young woman who teams up with a cranky drunk named Rooster Cogburn to avenge her father's death. "True Grit" and the two movies made of it exposed Mr. Portis' off-kilter storytelling to a mass audience, although he doesn't seem to have cared about that. And if he did, we'll never know. Charles Portis died on Monday. He was 86. He'd made his name as a journalist covering the civil rights movement and was the Herald Tribune's London bureau chief in 1964, when he announced that he was moving to Arkansas, where he'd grown up to write novels. Two years later, he published Norwood. And then came True Grit. And over the next 23 years, just three more books, each weird and funny and dark and each different from one another and from anything anyone else was writing. And so brilliant, that critic Ron Rosenbaum once called him America's least known great novelist. Other than books, he published the odd short story. In 1977, he contributed an odd humor piece to The New Yorker called "Your Action Line" a parody of advice columns. He made up both the questions and the answers. He addresses fictional readers concerns about how to get transcripts of the banter at a local bar and how a new no left turn sign has added hours to someone's commute. And the last Q&A from Your Action Line goes like this. .

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: “My science teacher told me to write a paper on the 'detective ants' of Ceylon, and I can't find anything about these ants. Don't tell me to go to the library, because I've already been there."

CH: There are no ants in Ceylon. Your teacher may be thinking of the 'journalist ants' of central Burma. These bright-red insects grow to a maximum length of one-quarter inch, and they are tireless workers, scurrying about on the forest floor and gathering tiny facts, which they store in their abdominal sacs. When the sacs are filled, they coat these facts with a kind of nacreous glaze and exchange them for bits of yellow wax manufactured by the smaller and slower 'wax ants'. The journalist ants burrow extensive tunnels and galleries beneath Burmese villages, and the villagers, reclining at night on their straw mats, can often hear a steady hum from the earth. This hum is believed to be the ants sifting fine particles of information with their feelers in the dark. Diminutive grunts can sometimes be heard, too, but these are thought to come not from the journalist ants but from their albino slaves, the 'butting dwarf ants', who spend their entire lives tamping wax into tiny storage chambers with their heads."

CH: That was Charles Portis' writing on the subject of the entirely made up journalist ants of central Burma. Mr. Portis, author of True Grit, died on Monday. He was 86.

[Music]

Michael Kamad

CH: Hockey players are known for their endurance and stamina. But in terms of both, one player in Calgary is really out hustling everyone else. Michael Kamad is a long-time member of the Crowchild 55-plus team "Black." He's also the team's oldest member. In fact, tomorrow is his birthday, his 90th birthday. And his teammates are getting together for a special game to celebrate. CBC Calgary spoke with Michael Kamad about his life on the ice.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHAEL KAMAD: When I retired, I skated for three years -- skating. And then one fellow in Calgary, saw me skating. He asked me if I would come out to play hockey. And I tried it out and that's how I got back into hockey. And I am in my 24th right now playing hockey. And I'm just lucky. I enjoy the camaraderie with the players that I played with. And being associated with all the people that I've been associated in sports. I was a centre player when I was young. Now I'm a winger. I play the wing. I'll let the young fellows do the skating and I was a playmaker. And I said I'm very fortunate -- I said, I watch myself. I'm still able to skate pretty good. But I'm a playmaker. So the guys get the chance to score goals. And when they score, I said I'm happier than they are when they score. And I'm very thankful to them. I played baseball as well. And I have been associated in both sports and I'm still managing and still do it. I run for guys in baseball that can't run. I still can run, you know, in sports. My legs are still good and I don't have no medical problems. People see that I'm up at that age and I still manage to do what I can do. And I think I'm an inspiration to a lot of people.

CH: That's Calgary's Michael Kamad, who turns 90 tomorrow. His teammates on the Crow Child 55-plus team "Black" will celebrate his birthday with a special game.

[Music]

Part 3: Afghan election

Afghan election

Guest: Zaki Nadry

CH: After months of waiting, Afghanistan has a winner in its presidential election. Or does it? Today, the country's election commission announced that current President Ashraf Ghani had won just over 50 percent of the vote, narrowly avoiding a runoff. But Mr. Ghani's main opponent, Abdullah Abdullah, has announced forcefully that he doesn't accept that result. He's alleging election fraud. The instability couldn't come at a worse time for the country, with the US trying to nail down a long awaited deal with the Taliban. Zaki Nadry is a member of Abdullah Abdullah's campaign team. We reached him in Kabul, Afghanistan.

CO: Mr. Nadry after waiting so many months, how did you react when you heard these election results announced today?

ZAKI NADRY: Well, as a pre-face note, I would like to say that the leading candidate, Dr. Abdullah Abdullah, has boycotted the process as the process was diluted with fraud based on many evidences.

CO: You don't recognize the results of this election?

ZN: Absolutely. Because they have acted opposite and there are enough evidence of interference. And I'm very sorry to say that the Afghanistan independent election commissioners were all actually a sellout commission to Mr. Ghani's team. And they have actually committed national treason.

CO: This election -- the voter turnout for those who voted was so low, wasn't it? It looks like about 20 percent of the eligible voters came out. There were hundreds of polling booths that were attacked or never opened -- attacked by the Taliban. So many people didn't get a chance to vote or were afraid to vote. So at what level is this election even legitimate for anybody?

ZN: Initially, the elections commission had closed most of the polling stations, which was Dr. Abdullah's main polling stations. There were also some of the polling stations that were located in Taliban's rural areas. So that's why the turnout was very low. It seems that the Afghan nation is lacking the confidence and belief on a democratic process because of the results that we had in 2014, the elections. It was also diluted by a lot of fraud.

CO: In the last election, it came to a kind of a standstill like this between Mr. Abdullah Abdullah and Mr. Ghani. And the decision was it was negotiated was that Mr. Ghani would stand as president and Mr. Abdullah would be the chief executive -- there would be a power sharing arrangement. In the interest of a stable Afghanistan, why not go the same route? Why not work out some sort of power sharing arrangement between the two parties?

ZN: Our main aim is not actually power sharing. Let me clarify this, that our aim is to prevail democracy. Democracy has to prevail somehow in sometimes in Afghanistan. We failed to prevail it in 2014. And it was because Dr. Abdullah had to sacrifice for the sake of stability and unity in the country. So he had to accept that power sharing deal. Otherwise, he was the president. He was the president-elect based on law and based on clean votes. It is the same case right now, but this time the nation will not tolerate fraud anymore. That is because the nation expects Dr. Abdullah to stand and resist for the sake of democracy. For the sake of respecting all democratic values and also people's vote. They have sacrificed. They have been killed by Taliban for voting. Their fingers have been cut for the sake of voting. So Dr. Abdullah cannot be flexible anymore. This is the decision of the people and his supporters.

CO: You are 26 years old. Is that right?

ZN: Yes. 27 sorry.

CO: Okay. And so you've seen -- well your entire life you have seen an unstable Afghanistan. Even your father lived in an unstable Afghanistan. You've had war for decades.

ZN: Absolutely. I was a refugee in Pakistan for almost 19 years.

CO: Isn't the priority -- I hear you saying democracy must prevail -- but at this point, peace could possibly be for a lot of people the priority. And that stability and unity that you said was necessary in the last election, how is it not even more important now where the United States is negotiating with the Taliban to actually have a have a part in running your country? I mean, is this not the time for four people like Mr. Abdullah and Mr. Ghani and all other parties to come together and try and have that stability and unity?

ZN: Well, the elections result will actually affect the peace negotiations as well. Both rivals, Dr. Abdullah and Mr. Ghani -- they have different strategies regarding peace. Dr. Abdullah is more flexible when it comes to peace. He accepts negotiations. He wants to start the negotiations without any preconditions. At least the start of the negotiation should not have any preconditions. But it seems that Mr. Ghani's team has a different policy when it comes to peace. They are very much strict when it comes to peace and they don't want to even start the negotiation as it will threaten their power in the government. So it seems like even the elections -- the election result will affect peace process as well.

CO: But you both want peace? Both parties want peace?

ZN: Absolutely. Peace is a priority. It has been said by both parties that they both want peace. But actions speak louder than words previously. Dr. Abdullah has been supporting the peace negotiations from the last five years. While Mr. Ghani has always neglected and ignored Taliban for the sake of his own power.

CO: Mr. Nadry we will leave it there. I do hope something is resolved so that you can have some years of your life that are not in such turmoil. But thank you. Thank you for speaking with us tonight.

CO: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure talking to you.

CH: Zaki Nadry is a member of Afghan politician Abdullah Abdullah's campaign team. We reached him in Kabul.

[Music]

Harry Gregg

CH: Harry Gregg was a phenomenal goalkeeper. But his greatest saves took place on a runway in Germany. He was playing for Manchester United back in 1958 when a chartered plane carrying the team failed to clear a snowy runway in Munich. 23 people were killed in the crash. But the number could have been higher were it not for Harry Gregg. Ignoring a pilot's warnings, he raced back into the plane, twice, rescuing six people, including a pregnant woman and her baby. And Mr. Gregg's dedication to his team didn't end there. He was back on the field less than two weeks later, leading Man-U to a 3 nil victory. Harry Gregg died earlier this week. He was 87. Years after the crash, he was still a reluctant hero, saying he preferred to be remembered for his actions on the field instead and the long, illustrious career that followed that fateful day. After he retired, he wrote about that career detailing its rise, its rebirth after the crash and allegations of game fixing within the organization. From our archives, here's some of Harry Gregg's 2002 conversation with former As It Happens host Mary Lou Finlay.

SOUNDCLIP

MARY LOU FINLAY: Mr. Gregg, how do you know that games were fixed in Manchester United and when was this?

HARRY GREGG: Very early in the 60s. And the thing that really hurt me about it was that the club had just come through and myself had been one of nine survivors from the tragic air crash. And the club was on the point of being rebuilt. A young player -- a boy called Joe. He came to me on one Friday and said, can I have a word with you? And he said, somewhere quiet. So we went to what we called the boot room where we did our studs and got our gear ready. And he said, Have they been to see you? I said, what about? And he said, about putting some money on a game. I said, What are you talking about? To lose. And I said, Joe they won't be bothering me. And he said, What do I do? Well, I do have this belief that there is honor among thieves, friends and colleagues. And I said, just go deaf son -- pretend you don't hear them. They won't come near me knowing they wouldn't. Maybe within the next week or two, I was in the treatment room with two well-known players and every so often there was a little jag and a little nudge relating to the same subject. And I being me, I said, "That's the second time I've heard that. And if I hear it again, I'm straight up the stairs to tell the boss. And you won't have to ask who told because it will be bloody well me."

MARY LOU FINLAY: Did you know who was responsible for throwing the matches?

HARRY GREGG: Best way to put it -- I know who was involved. And they know that I know. And that in itself is enough for me.

MARY LOU FINLAY: You're still not naming names.

HARRY GREGG: As I said to Matt Busby at the time before I began, you're getting no names out of me. But might I put to you about a Canadian, Ben Johnson, the sprinter. The national press rang me, what did I think about it? I remember saying so well, which is the biggest crime to take a pill to enhance performance or to take a buck to lose one.

MARY LOU FINLAY: What's your answer to that?

HARRY GREGG: To cheat the public is diabolical. To cheat in any way, the people who have paid to come and watch you play for you who've been paid for doing something you love -- to me, that is a shame. That is terrible. I was lucky enough to be able to play football in front of millions of people. And to me, that was an honor. And to let those people down who made me what I was at the time was cheating.

CH: From our archives, that's Harry Gregg talking with our former host, Mary Lou Finlay back in 2002. The former Manchester United goalkeeper died this week. He was 87.

[Music]

Ideas Promo: Wade Davis

CH: Coming up on Ideas after As It Happens, the man who figured out the real life zombie cocktail, Canada's very own Indiana Jones anthropologist, Wade Davis. Here he is with a surprisingly upbeat message about our relationship with the planet and the possibilities for climate change in particular.

SOUNDCLIP

WADE DAVIS: We in the West, with our way of thinking of the natural world, we are not the norm. We're the anomaly. Most societies around the planet have these extraordinarily rich relationships where they never see people as part of the problem, but part of the essential solution because it's only people that can maintain the cosmic balance of the world. So for example, the Mamos literally believe that their prayers maintain the ecological or the cosmic balance of the forces. Botswana shaman really believe that their responsibility is to maintain the energy flows of the forests. And all those ideas, strange as it may seem, actually have real consequences in terms of the ecological footprint of the culture. So I think there's some lessons there, not that any of us should go back to pre-industrial past or ever expect that the genius of modernity should be kept from any society. Anthropology never calls for the preservation of anything. And when people often ask, you know, why did these other cultures matter? I answer that with two words: climate change. Not to suggest we go back to a pre-industrial past, but the very existence of these other alternatives, these other visions of life are so rich in their complexity put the lie to those of us in our own society who say that we cannot change. As we know we all must change the fundamental way we treat the planet. And so I draw great inspiration from the diversity of ideas that we've come up with across the whole range of the human spirit.

CH: Anthropologist and explorer Wade Davis on "Into the Wild" coming up next on Ideas.

[Music]

Africville bell

Guest: Irvine Carvery

SOUNDCLIP

[Group singing]

CH: That's the sound of a choir celebrating Heritage Day in Halifax yesterday. They're also celebrating the imminent return of a church bell that hasn't rung in their community for more than 50 years. In 1967, the city of Halifax demolished a church in Africville, along with the whole community, which was built by black loyalists centuries ago. But before the church went down, someone saved the bell. Now that bell is heading back to its old neighbourhood. Irvine Carvery was there when the return of the bell was announced at the celebrations in Halifax. He's the president of the Africville Genealogy Society and we reached him in Halifax.

CO: Irvine what was it like being at that ceremony yesterday, when you got the news that the bell would be coming back?

IRVINE CARVERY: Oh, it was very emotional. It brought back a flood of memories of hearing that bell. You could almost hear the bell tolling in the church when that news was given to us.

CO: What are your own memories of the bell?

IC: As a child hearing that bell and knowing that, well, we have to go to service. That was a call to service in our church. But also the bell was used for different reasons. A lot of the people in Africville fished so they would go to the Bedford Basin. And if there was an issue or problem onshore, they would ring the church bell. So you knew if you were on the water and you heard the church bell, you had to return the shore. And it seemed as though the person who rang the bell had a certain kind of cadence with the bell, depending upon why he was ringing the bell.

CO: And you remember that -- you remember the feeling, the sound, and the sense you had as a kid when that bell would ring in Africville.

IC: Oh, I sure did. I sure did. I can remember Easter Sunday mornings. And we're up before the sun and the bell would be bringing in. It would be a happy bell. And then, of course, when it was a funeral, it was a slow toll. So the person who rang that bell had a really good sense of sound and feeling.

CO: Where has this bell been for the past 53 years?

IC: The bell has been in the belfry of the Beachville Baptist Church just outside of Halifax.

CO: How did it end up there?

IC: The trustees of the church of the day bequeathed the bell to Beachville because Beachville did not have a bell in their belfry.

CO: Now, that is another story that we need to know. Is it what happened to the church itself in Africville?

IC: Oh, my, it's so sad. The city of Halifax came into Africville in the middle of the night and bulldozed down the church. And not only was it insulting that they would do it in the middle of the night, but they did not own that church when they bulldozed it. It still belongs to the people of Africville. And they came in and they bulldozed it down with the hopes of those people remaining in Africville would lose hope and faith and sell their properties to the city.

CO: This is another chapter in all of the stories we know about Africville -- the efforts on the part of Halifax to destroy that that community. And so how central is this bell to restoring that -- to restoring what Africville was?

IC: Oh, it is central. The church was where our leadership came out of. The church was where all the community organizations were, any kind of activities that went on in Africville was all centered around the church. So the bell just represents all of that. And even more importantly for me and for people from Africville, that bell represents our ancestors. All those years that listened to that bell -- all those voices that came to church to sing, that bell represents all of that long history.

CO: And this goes back to the mid-18th century. That's when black loyalists built that church.

IC: That's what historians will tell you that Africville began in 1848. But our oral history has us there a lot earlier than that. There's a lithograph showing on Bedford Basin looking over to Africville in 1836, which clearly shows the community of Africville. So from our perspective, Africville was there a lot earlier -- was there at the turn of the century.

CO: Is there a story behind whoever it is that or what people actually saved the bell during that demolition the church?

IC: The men of Africville actually went up into the belfry. They didn't wait for the city to bulldoze the church down. They went up and removed that bell. The bell was that important.

CO: And so it's been in the Beachville Baptist Church all this time. How did they feel about losing that bell?

IC: Well, you know, they've been wonderful. In 2010, when the Africville Genealogy Society made the settlement with the city of Halifax -- and we were assured that we were going to rebuild our church. I approached the congregation of the church in Beachville to ask them if they would consider returning the bell. Without any hesitancy whatsoever, they agreed immediately: yes, that's your bell. It has to go back.

CO: And what is it going to mean for people in Africville -- not just in Africville but people who were dispersed from Africville when it was demolished. What will it symbolize for those people once it's returned?

IC: That bell is another piece of our history that we have been able to reclaim. It is a monumental feat for us to have our bell returned to us.

CO: And where will it be when once it's returned?

IC: Well, when it returns, we're not going to pull in the belfry. We're going to mount the bell outside with an appropriate plaque talking about the significance of this bell and the journey that our bell took in and how it was returned back home.

CO: And will it ring?

IC: It will ring. Yes. [Chuckles]

CO: And what would that be like? I mean we will probably talk to you then, too. But what will that moment be like, do you think, when people in Africville will hear that?

IC: Oh my gosh. It's going to bring tears, tears of joy, but also tears of sadness of what could have been if we had been allowed to stay on the shores of Bedford Basin. So it's going to be a very dramatic moment when that happens.

CO: Irvine it's lovely to talk to you. Thank you.

IC: My pleasure, Carol. Thank you so much.

CH: Irvine Carvery lived in Africville. He's now the president of the Africville Genealogy Society. And we reached him in Halifax.

[Music]

Holden Cars

CH: In the 1970s, the Holden car companies surveyed a whole chorus of Australians about a few of their favorite things a story.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Australians what's your favorite sport?

GROUP: Football.

VOICE 1: Snack?

GROUP: Pies.

VOICE 1: Animal?

GROUP: Kangaroo.

VOICE 1: And what's your favorite car Australia?

GROUP: Holden!

CH: Yes, the response to the Holden was clearly unanimous. But just to be sure, the company asked a bunch more times. Also because, well, the surveyor admittedly was a tad on the forgetful side.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Let me see. That's: Football, meat pies, kangaroos and Holden cars, huh?

GROUP: Right!

VOICE 1: Well you sure sounds like Australia to me.

GROUP: We are!

VOICE 1: Well, then you better tell me again, because I just might forget.

CH: Okay. It seemed at this point like Holden might have been fishing for compliments, but Aussies were so overwhelmingly united in their love for the car, they were happy to oblige by singing in harmony.

SOUNDCLIP

GROUP: [Singing] We love football, meat pies, kangaroos and Holden cars. Football, meat pies, kangaroos, and Holden cars.

VOICE 1: That's football, meat pies, kangaroos, and Holden Cars. I think you better tell me again.

GROUP: [Singing] We love football, meat pies, kangaroos, and Holden cars.

VOICE 1: In case you're wondering, this commercial is brought to you by football, meat pies, kangaroos, and Australia's own car.

GROUP: [Singing] They go together -- underneath the seven stars. Football and meat pies, kangaroos and Holden cars.

VOICE 1: Makes sense to me!

CH: And it did make sense for a good long while anyway. But it seems that over the years Australians began to forget how much they loved the Holden because GM, which bought the brand in 1931, is putting the Holden in permanent park. It blames sluggish sales and rising production costs for its decision. That has unleashed anger online and a tsunami of nostalgia, especially for the Commodore family sedan, Holden's most popular model. But the Sandman was hands down the hang-ten favorite of surfers. It's classic panel van design with no side windows in the back made it perfect for beach camping and for transporting your boards. Prime Minister Scott Morrison said that like most Australians, he's angry about the halt, although he's not surprised. But many, including his predecessor, Kevin Rudd, blamed the governing Liberals for not supporting the domestic car industry. Of course, emotions won't reverse a move that's driven solely by the markets and by the motto that you've got to know when to Holden and know when to fold'em.

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February 18, 2020 Episode Transcript

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