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The AIH Transcript for December 31, 2019

Hosts: Helen Mann and Chris Howden

HELEN MANN: Hello, I’m Helen Mann. Sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

HM: five airstrikes, 25 dead, one huge new crisis. After U.S. attacks in Iraq and Syria, thousands of protesters stormed the U.S. embassy in Baghdad — throwing rocks, starting fires, and shouting “Death to America.”

CH: Going, going, Ghosn. He was supposed to be under house arrest for corporate corruption in Japan — so we'll find out how former auto exact and current billionaire Carlos Ghosn escaped to Lebanon.

HM: Tonight we're gonna worry like it's 1999. Twenty years ago tonight, Y2-chaos loomed. So we go back to our chat with the hardware store owner who found himself unprepared for doomsday preppers.

CH: If you're stuck in Sandy's pants from Grease, well: sit tight. We'll hear from Olivia Newton-John about auctioning off her most famous outfit as part of our New Year's Eve review of the year in music stories.

HM: For crying out wow. We'll rebroadcast our story about a nine year old boy whose excitement about classical music echoed through the concert hall, and then around the world.

CH: And a bullet that bites you. In new research, that for some reason they chose not to keep to themselves, scientists have discovered that crocodiles aren't just capable of moving fast, they can actually gallop.

CH: As It Happens. The New Year's Eve edition, Radio that guesses we all move a little faster at crunch time.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Iraq embassy protests, Carlos Ghosn flees, galloping crocodiles

Iraq embassy protests

Guest: Mustafa Salim

CH: It was a chaotic day at the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad. Thousands of protesters and militia leaders stormed the embassy after U.S. airstrikes in Iraq and Syria killed 25 people — members of an Iran-backed militia called Kataib Hezbollah. Mustafa Salim was at the Embassy today. He's a reporter with the Washington Post. We reached him in Baghdad, Iraq.

HM: Mustafa Salim, describe for us what it looked like outside the U.S. embassy compound there today?

MUSTAFA SALIM: So it started this morning by the call of the Kataib Hezbollah — who called the people to join them, thousands of them. They marched towards the Green Zone — which is like a closed area. Thousands of them enter to the Green Zone, and then went to the street where the U.S. embassy is located. They besieged the embassy. They set up tents with their leaders.

HM: So the thousands of people were outside this compound protesting. What were they shouting, what were they doing?

MS: They were shouting “Death to America,” “Death to Israel.”

HM: What was it like to be in the middle of all of that?

MS: I mean, I was, as a journalist, doing my job. So I was just like taking notes and covering it. I wasn't taking any side, of course. So I was just like watching.

HM: Of course.

MS: But I can tell that the faces are really angry faces. I was concerned that it might be escalating.

HM: You mentioned that people managed to get inside. This is a highly secure area. How did they manage to breach the barriers around the compound?

MS: It's because, I mean, the area is closed by checkpoints. Only people with special access can reach. But there were thousands of people with their weapons and military vehicles. No one could stop them.

HM: There have been suggestions that it is possible Iraqi security may have looked the other way to allow these protesters to get access to the area?

MS: From my perspective, I mean, I'm from this area, I know the area. They didn't have any choice. Because, I mean, the checkpoints are only five to six people. You can't face thousands of people with weapons. They don't have any other way.

HM: Let's talk about how this all got started. It involves the killing of an American contractor working there. What were the circumstances around that death?

MS: Yeah. So few days ago, there was Katyusha rockets landed on K1 airbase in Kirkuk, northern Iraq. It's a place for the Americans and the Iraqi army. The rocket, when it landed, it injured the American contractor, then he died because of an injury. As well as a few federal police and a few American soldiers. That's why the Americans, through their information, they found out that the Kataib Hezbollah are the people who are responsible for that attack. According to the Iraqi prime minister, Adil Abdul-Mahdi, he said in a call that he was informed that there will be a strike against Hezbollah because they were the people who were behind this attack. At 7 p.m., two days ago, the airstrike took place on the Iraqi-Syrian border, where there is a headquarter for two brigades of kataib Hezbollah, killed around 25 people. And today, during the funeral, the angry militiamen breached the Green Zone surrounding the embassy, burned the wall of the embassy, burned the reception room of the embassy, and the towers. They broke the camera. And now, they are still there stoning rockets inside the embassy. They made homemade Molotovs, which is like a beer can and putting fuel in it and light fire in it and throw it inside the embassy.

HM: So just to be clear, these American airstrikes that killed about 25 people, they were launched in retaliation for the death of this American contractor?

MS: Yes. Yes.

HM: Why did the airstrike inspire so much anger?

MS: It's because it's killed large number of people, 25 people. Among them, was senior commander. And also, it was the first time that the American publicly announced that they are the ones who did that strike.

HM: President Trump has tweeted saying that the protests are actually orchestrated by Iran, and that they will be held fully responsible. I mean, given Kataib Hezbollah is supported by Iran, is there any truth to the allegation that they're actually fueling this demonstration?

MS: That is very accurate because, also, what I've seen when I was there, they were raising pictures, they were graffiti on the wall of the embassy that Qassem Soleimani is our leader — who's the head of the Revolutionary Guard. So, yeah, it’s controlled by Iran, and Iran are the one who are behind these demonstrations and what's happening around the embassy.

HM: They were raising pictures of the Iranian leadership?

MS: Yes, and they wrote on the wall, like graffiti, like Soleimani is my leader.

HM: Iran is rejecting that accusation. They say that this is not their doing.

MS: I mean, for a person on the ground, it's obvious that's what they are doing.

HM: In terms of what this says about the relations going on now between the government in Baghdad, Iran, and the United States, it has got itself in kind of a difficult situation, right? It is it's allied with both the U.S. and Iran. And, of course, we know that the tensions between the U.S. and Iran are very high. What does this do to the government in Baghdad?

MS: So even before this incident, the relationship between Iraq and the White House is going through is called this period since ‘03. And, basically, Abdul-Mahdi has already resigned a month ago. So the relationship with the Americans and Iran depends who is going to be the next commander in chief, who’s going to be the next prime minister for Iran.

HM: So these protesters that were gathered outside the U.S. embassy, what do they want?

MS: They said they will have an open sit-in until the departure of the U.S. embassy from Iraq. And also, the departure of the whole U.S. troops from Iraq.

HM: And where is broader public sentiment on that?

MS: It's completely different. This time, is only by the people who are pro-militias, pro-Iran. Like, for example, the protesters who has been protesting in Tahrir Square since October issued a statement saying that those people who are around the US Embassy, they don't represent us.

HM: So what do you think is going to happen to these protests in the days to come?

MS: I mean, they will continue their sit-in. And Iraqi forces, they can't do anything to them. So I think it's going to be solved by further discussions between the U.S. and Iran.

HM: All right. I'll stop you there, Mustafa Salim. Thank you very much for filling us in on what's happening.

MS: Thank you.

HM: Goodbye.

CH: Mustafa Salim is a reporter with the Washington Post. We reached him in Baghdad, Iraq.

[Music: rock]

Carlos Ghosn flees

Guest: Ricardo Karam

CH: Carolos Ghosn says he isn't running from justice. The Japanese prosecutors he's run away from might disagree. Mr. Ghosn is the billionaire executive who used to head the carmakers Renault, Nissan, and Mitsubishi. He was picked up by Japanese officials in 2018 and charged with a series of corporate crimes. He was placed under house arrest after handing over a ten-million dollar guarantee. But this morning, the Lebanese broadcaster Ricardo Karam tweeted to welcome Carlos Ghosn back to Beirut. And since then, there have been stories of a spectacular escape. We reached Ricardo Karam in the mountains above Beirut.

HM: Mr. Karam, you are among Carlos Ghosn’s friends. How are you, his other friends and family, feeling about his escape from Japan?

RICARDO KARAM: I think this is a special moment and a special occasion. Not only friends and family members are celebrating and happy to embrace. This is, I believe, a moment every person seeking justice prevailing is looking for. Nobody is above the law. However, for the law to become tangible and to be practiced and to be executed, it has bylaws. And for those bylaws, I believe, that there is a legal system that we need to adopt and to abide by.

HM: Let me stop you there, though, because we're talking about the Japanese legal system. He was going through the regular channels there, Mr. Ghosn. He is now accused of fleeing justice by officials in that country and by others. Why did he not stand up and face the courts in Japan?

RK: I believe you have been following and witnessing for the past 14 months a very harsh life patterns that nobody would eventually accept. It was more a psychological torture than a physical one. And we have seen how Mr. Ghosn was living in a jail, and how they moved him to a small apartment in a specific suburb, and then before moving to a normal apartment. I think, and we all think, that somebody like Carlos Ghosn, who has brought the company to its pinnacle of success, does not deserve such behaviour and treatment.

HM: Staying in a small apartment in Japan, though, doesn't exactly sound like torture.

RK: It wasn't actually. You know, the first apartment he lived in, the conditions were very dire. And it was meant to be. And we know, I think in Canada, or in the States, or even in Lebanon, everybody is innocent until proven to be guilty. And with the lack of a trial, and the trial not to start, he is not guilty. And he doesn't deserve, you know, to be treated the way he was treated.

HM: I want to ask you about the circumstances around Mr. Ghosn’s departure from Japan. A Lebanese Foreign Ministry official told Reuters that he returned to Lebanon illegally using a French passport. But, you know, as far as we knew, his passport — because he was a citizen of various countries — were all held by Japan. So what are you able to say about how he got out of Japan?

RK: In a couple of days, There will be a press conference, and Mr. Ghosn will be himself addressing the press and the public opinion. And he will be talking about that aspect. I’m not at all entitled to tackle that issue, to talk about it.

HM: The Lebanese channel MTV is reporting that Mr. Ghosn escaped using a team of covert operatives and that they used the cover of a visiting Georgian musical troupe to smuggle him out of the country in a music instrument case. I mean, it just it sounds like espionage. I'm just wondering, you know, is it fair to say at least, as his Japanese lawyer does, that he would have needed a lot of help to get out?

RK: Listen, I believe many versions have been given so far. And we have listened, we have read, a lot of those different versions. Sometimes it was a 007 adventure. Another other time, it was a science fiction. However, I repeat, and I reiterate that he is the only one who can give explanation to what has happened and how he was able to leave and to flee Japan and to arrive to Lebanon. For the moment, everything we've been listening to, everything we've been hearing, is not accurate and cannot be accurate unless given by the person who has lived this specific journey.

HM: For those of us outside Lebanon, can you help us understand how significant a figure Carlos Ghosn is in that country?

RK: Carlos is a source of inspiration. He has inspired millions of people all over the world, and specifically in our parts of the region. He is somebody we look up at. He is somebody who has embraced success, and whose journey is something we all look up at. And in a region where hope is lacking, we need to look up at those role models because they boost us.

HM: You know he continues, though, because he has left Japan, to have these serious allegations of corporate crimes hanging over his head. Does that not affect his future in Lebanon?

RK: These are accusations, as you said. And nothing has been proved so far. I think now this is for the lawyers to talk about. And this is, you know, for courts. And for a fair trial, an international one, that will give the final verdict and to prove if Mr. Ghosn is innocent or is guilty. And as I've stated at the beginning of our call, nobody is above the law. But, however, the trial need to be just, and the legal system needs also to be a legal system adopting international standards.

HM: But the crimes are alleged to have taken place in Japan. You know there's no extradition treaty as I understand it between Lebanon and Japan. So in what way would he ever face justice outside that country?

RK: We need to wait for him to talk and to respond to all of those accusations. And to tell us what is the next step he will eventually undertake — and how 2020 is going to look like.

HM: Mr. Karam, thank you for talking with us.

RK: My great pleasure. Thanks to you.

HM: All right. Bye-bye.

CH: Ricardo Karam is a Lebanese broadcaster, and friend of Carlos Ghosn's. We reached him outside Beirut. And for more on this story, go to our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Galloping crocodiles

Guest: John Hutchinson

CH: Crocodiles are scary predators. They can survive days without any food. They have one of the strongest bites in the world. And they have the creepy eyes of a super villain about to burst into maniacal laughter. But veterinary scientists have recently discovered something else about crocodiles that makes them even scarier: when they reach their top speeds, some of them can gallop. The findings were recently published in the journal Scientific Reports. John Hutchinson is the lead researcher. He is also a Professor of Evolutionary Biomechanics at the Royal Veterinary College in London. We reached him in Los Angeles.

HM: Professor Hutchinson, what does it look like when a crocodile gallops?

JOHN HUTCHINSON: Well, when a crocodile gallops, they move their front legs together as a pair. And then their hind legs together as a pair. Kind of like a squirrel sort of hops across the ground. And they go airborne, which is pretty cool. Like, their hind limbs launch them off the ground, then they go airborne and land on their front legs. And their backbone bends up and down as they do that. So it's very much like a mammal-style of movement.

HM: Where does this kind of gait come from?

JH: That is the million-dollar question, really. The longstanding idea has been that it's a very old way of moving that the ancient extinct ancestors of crocodiles had back in the Triassic period — about two hundred and thirty million years ago. The ancestors of crocodiles looked very different. They were very long-legged, long skinny legs — about the size of a cat or not much bigger than that. And very terrestrial, they had not gone into the water really so much. So they look like they were built to move quickly. And so it's thought that maybe they were using these galloping gaits way back in the Triassic. And crocodiles just inherited that and went back to the water basically while retaining that kind of locomotion.

HM: So tell us how you put your theory to the test?

JH: Well, we built a simple runway — just some walls with a flat stretch of ground between them. And released crocodiles at one end [laughing] and tried to encourage them to move to the other, past some cameras — really, really basic.

HM: How do you urge a crocodile to run [laughing]?

JH: Well, yeah, that's really challenging. We worked in the summer when it was really hot and humid, which the crocs like. Sometimes they would just go away because they don't really want to be around people. Sometimes we needed to kind of nudge them to get them to go away. But even then, about half the time or more, probably more than half, they would just sit there and do nothing, or hiss, or just kind of be annoyed. They were tough animals to work with — hard to motivate, yes. But this behaviour of galloping is like an escape response. It's something that younger, smaller crocodiles will use to get away from something they don't like — especially danger.

HM: Anything unpredictable happen?

JH: Oh man, all the time, yeah [laughing]. The Crocodiles were very unpredictable. They'd climb over the walls of the runway. They'd burst through the walls. Once, we had a glass wall and immediately as we set that glass wall up, one of the big crocodiles just smashed it. Quite a few times when we didn't have any sort of glass wall there facing the cameras, the crocodiles would take a left turn as they went through the runway and charge the cameras. So we'd have to catch them before they ran over the cameras. Yeah, lots of high jinks.

HM: So what did the top speeds that crocodiles can achieve?

JH: So they can hit about five metres a second, which is about 11 miles per hour or what is that in kilometres per hour, 17 or something like that? I mean, that's slower than a human can run. But it's still pretty impressive for a reptile like that. And the interesting thing we found that we totally didn't expect is that while alligators in caimans cannot gallop, they can still use a trotting kind of gait, a more normal way of moving at the same speed as a crocodile that's galloping. So speed there's not the benefit of galloping. It's something else probably to do with acceleration and maneuverability.

HM: Not all crocodiles gallop. Which ones do?

JH: Yeah, it's just the members of the alligator and caiman family that do it. That one branch of the crocodile family tree, which is the cool remaining mystery is did they lose that ability from their ancestors or did they never have it? And we still don't know. The fossils suggest that they lost it, that it was always there in the ancestors. And alligators therefore have lost it for some reason. But then why? Why would they lose it? We don't know.

HM: You know that thing they tell you that if you're being chased by a gator or a crocodile, you’re supposed to run in zigzag. Is that true?

JH: That'll work, but a straight line works probably even better. I would just run away [both laugh]. The one where they could catch you as on rough terrain, slippery ground, going downhill, they'll just slide or use this galloping gait to go downhill. But, generally, I think in most situations we can get away from a croc. It's when you're near the water's edge and they ambush you. They’re ambush predators, so if they get the drop on you, then you're in trouble. They can accelerate quickly. But once they get going, they reach their top speed pretty fast. And we can outrun them in a few steps.

HM: Tell me why this discovery is important? How does it advance what we know about this species?

JH: Well, it tells us a lot about crocodilian natural history. We discovered this behaviour in several species of crocodiles that were never known to do it before. We had five documentations of species out of the 20-odd species of crocodiles that had never been reported to do this before. So we know more about diversity of behaviour in crocodilians. We showed how size, the size of a crocodile, affects the way they move. And that's important that bigger crocodiles are less athletic and eventually lose this ability to gallop. So it's mainly biology and natural history, although there are applications and in other areas like people are building alligator robots, robots that can move on land and in water. So understanding how these kinds of gaits in fast crocodiles work could help us in that regard. But really, the purpose was to understand natural history and evolution. And we're really happy about that.

HM: Well, Professor Hutchinson, I appreciate you telling us about your research. Thank you very much.

JH: Thank you.

HM: Okay. Bye-bye.

CH: John Hutchinson is a Professor of Evolutionary Biomechanics at the Royal Veterinary College in London. He was in Los Angeles. And if you want to see videos and pictures of the crocodiles, head to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Horns!]

FOA: Y2K prep

CH: Twenty years ago tonight — as the clock ticked closer and closer to midnight — we all held our breath. Would the lights go out? Would nuclear weapons accidentally be detonated? Would we lose all the friends we'd reconnected with on Classmates-dot-com? Y2K was the legitimate fear that a coding glitch would cause computers everywhere to fail. And as it approached, people prepared to retreat — which is why, in April of 1999, former As It Happens host Mary Lou Finlay spoke with Gailan Lehman, the vice president of his family business, Lehman's Hardware. It was in Ohio, and catered to the Amish communities in the area — whose members don't believe in using electricity. And at the time, the business was finding it hard to stay stocked with supplies. From our archives, here is part of that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

MARY LOU FINLAY: Mr. lehman, how many orders have you been getting for Y2K stuff?

GAILAN LEHMAN: Well, I would say probably 50 per cent of calls we're getting right now are related to Y2K. And that all represents, I think in my opinion, mostly business we wouldn't have had otherwise. Because many of these people don't really believe in what we believe in, that may not be true of all of them. But, you know, most of our customers, and we ourselves believe, that high technology doesn't always offer the best way out. And we look for the old-fashioned ways to do things because we think those ways are often better. Most of the people that are calling us now don't have a clue about how to use the equipment we're using or we're selling, and so it makes it very difficult. You have to spend a lot of time explaining how to use that stuff.

MLF: But they're convinced that learning your old-fashioned ways might be just the ticket to getting through some crisis next January, right?

GL: That's probably true.

MLF: What are they buying?

GL: We've seen them, let's see, cookstoves, wood-fire cookstoves, Kerosene lamps. We have non-electric refrigerators that run on propane gas. We also have one that runs on solar power, which is already sold out clear through 2000. Although, most of the other stuff we've been able to keep in stock. We're selling a lot of food processing equipment like grain mills and canning equipment and food-drying equipment.

MLF: Are you making any special preparations for January 2000?

GL: You know, we don't talk about that.

MLF: [laughing] Why?

GL: If I tell you I'm getting ready, then everybody I know is going to come to my house if things are bad.

MLF: [laughing] That’s true, I am.

GL: [laughing] And if I tell you I'm not getting ready, then I'm minimizing something that may actually be a bad thing. I have no idea what's going to happen. But I think that it's always a good idea to be ready for anything. It's just it's such a valuable thing to be self-reliant. And to know that whatever happens, you'll be ready for it. That is such a valuable feeling of security and inner strength. It’s a good thing, I think.

CH: That was Gailan Lehman, vice president of Lehman's Hardware, speaking with our former host, Mary Lou Finlay, in April of 1999. Mr. Lehman is Mennonite, so unlike his Amish neighbours, he uses some electrical gadgets — like phones. 20 years ago tonight, the world was biting its nails in anticipation of a possible Y2K computer apocalypse.

[Music: rock]

Part two and three: As It Happens 2019 music interviews

CH: Right now, you're probably looking forward to whatever you're doing before midnight, and to the possibility that 2020 will be slightly less dystopian than 2019 was. And while you're looking forward, we're going to look back at the past year in stories about music. Starting with one of our proudest moments: the time we got Olivia Newton-John on the phone to talk about some pants she wore in 1978. In the final scene of Grease, Danny shows up dressed as a jock in a squaresville cardigan, and then Sandy shows up with giant hair, in a tight outfit, demanding he shape up. So she wins him over by succumbing to pressure from both the jerky men and the jerky women. In terms of sexual politics, it's a disaster. But in terms of wardrobe, it's legendary. This year, Olivia Newton-John decided to auction off a whole bunch of stuff from her long career for charity — including those pants, and the leather jacket she wore in that scene. And in August, guest host Rosemary Barton talked to Ms. Newton-John about the auction, and why she almost turned down the part of Sandy.

SOUNDCLIP

RB: Can I ask you would you fit into the pants now?

ONJ: Actually, I tried them on just for a giggle, and I wasn't gonna tell anyone this. And [laughs] I could.

RB: Wow!

ONJ: Luckily, the zipper is broken, so I wasn't able to really test the full result. [RB laughing] Let’s just say my legs got in there.

RB: [ONJ laughs] That's pretty impressive 40 years later.

ONJ: Yeah, not bad. Not bad.

RB: You have a recent book called “Don't Stop Believin” — where you talk about how you almost didn't take that role of Sandy. I don't know, you felt like you were too old or something?

ONJ: Well, there were a lot of reasons. I had made a movie in England in the 60s called “Toomorrow” —which was a science fiction musical group. [laughs] And there was a lot of excitement, and it didn't do anything. So then when my musical career took off, I was worried if I did another movie maybe I'd have another disaster, and it wouldn't be good for my career. So I was the reluctant Sandy. And then they sent John to meet me and you know how can you resist those blue eyes coming up your driveway?

RB: [RB and ONJ laugh] That's totally fair. Was that like a pivotal moment for you in your career like in terms of getting exposure on a different level?

ONJ: Oh, absolutely. I mean I was having great success with my music at that time. But the film took me to another level, totally. So it's been an incredible journey, and I feel so lucky to be part of it.

RB: Let's talk about where the proceeds for the auction are going to go — The Olivia Newton John Cancer Wellness and Research Centre, which is in Australia, right?

ONJ: Yeah, it's in Melbourne Australia — where I grew up. And they asked me to lend my name to a cancer centre about oh my gosh, it's almost 15 years ago now. And my dream was to you know I didn't just want my name on a cancer centre. So I said if you put the word wellness in there — and we have a wellness centre as part of this hospital centre — then I would love to endorse it because to me that is just as important as any other kind of treatment. So we did that, and it's been a wonderful success. And when people drive up to the centre, and they see wellness in the name, it gives them a positive feeling, which is the whole point.

RB: And you’ve faced cancer three times. Right now, you have breast cancer. And I last year, or earlier this year I think, you released that video where you had to address reports that you were on death's door. Can I play a bit of that clip for people that didn’t hear it?

ONJ: Please! Yeah, sure!

RB: [laughs] Here’s you.

SOUNDCLIP

ONJ: New Year everyone. This is Olivia Newton-John. And I just want to say that the rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated.

RB: [ONJ laughs] Why did you feel you had to do that?

ONJ: Because it was getting out of control. And you know it was frightening people. And even friends and relatives across the world were getting anxious. And I thought I just need to put this to bed. It’s just silly, and it's very distressing to read that you’re dead. You got to have a sense of humour about it. I know that's how they sell papers. But it just it went too far. So it was great because it nipped in the bud — just direct and truthful.

RB: How have you managed to — even now with your third bout — stay positive about things? Really approach it from a wellness perspective, I guess, right?

ONJ: Well, you know I feel very grateful. I mean every day is a gift for all of us. And none of us know what our life is going to be or when it's going to end. Just with a cancer diagnosis, of course it brings it into the forefront, and it's scary. But I just you know particularly being 70, and I've had an incredible life, and I intend to keep on living for a long time. I just am even more grateful every day.

RB: So how is your health right now then? Where are you in the treatment?

ONJ: I'm excellent. I'm only taking estrogen blockers. I had some radiation when I was in Australia — that was past October. I broke my sacrum, so I was on a walker. I couldn't walk. Then I was on a walker, then a stick. Now, I played golf the other day for the first time. [laugh]

RB: Just to go back to the auction, is there an item there I know you've said you know they were in your closet. You'll have pictures of them. But is there something there that is a little bit harder to give away or to sell than anything else?

ONJ: No, because any of those that I've had second thoughts of I've got them back. [laughs] I had a bracelet that I just thought I never wear this bracelet. I let it go and then suddenly I started thinking about it, and thought no, I think I want to keep that for my daughter. So you know a couple little things like that. But I think it's really important to let go of stuff. I mean I had stuff in closets, and no one's enjoying it. And much of the money is going to my Cancer Wellness Research Centre, so it's a win-win.

RB: Well, listen, I would go for the pants if I thought I could fit into them. [RB and ONJ laugh] Nice to speak with you, and I'm glad you're feeling okay.

ONJ: Thank you. I'm feeling great. Thanks so much.

RB: Thank you.

CH: As It Happens guest host Rosemary Barton talking to Ms. Newton -John herself about her decision to auction off her outfit from Grease, and hundreds of other items, for charity. Incidentally, in early November, the founder of the shape wear brand Spanx bought those pants for 162,500 dollars U.S. That's about $215,000 Canadian. That's probably not quite enough to make you say wow. I mean, what does nowadays? Unless you're shaking your head in disappointed disbelief, as you say it like, wow. Sometimes though, someone else's wonderment can create some for you. Like in May, during a performance by an orchestra in Boston called the Haydn and Handel Society. They had just finished performing a piece by Mozart. And as the last echoes faded away, and before the applause started, one audience member delivered a brief, extremely positive review of what he'd just heard. Carol spoke with orchestras CEO David Snead about that moment.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: David just set the scene for us last Sunday afternoon.

DAVID SNEAD: Sure. Well it was the final concert of our season at Symphony Hall in Boston. We were doing the Mozart Requiem. The concert had been sold out long in advance so there was a lot of excitement about it. The concert started off with kind of a somber opening piece by Mozart called the Masonic Funeral Music. And so the place is packed, the lights go down, and this kind of somber contemplative opener begins being conducted by our artistic director Henry Christophers. The piece ends with this kind of swell of a major chord, and the strings, and it kind of fades away to nothing. And Harry is holding -- he is finished conducting and he's holding his pose up in the air for the audience to kind of just have a couple of moments of silence.

CO: And we've seen that. We know that that's the convention -- that you finish the piece and there's that moment of silence and then the applause. What happened?

DS: So people are in the moment you know. And then kind of out of nowhere -- somewhere above me and behind me -- this little boy says "Wow!" with such joy and enthusiasm and people just broke up because it was expressing everything that they were feeling but it took a little boy to kind of capture the moment and say that.

CO: And of course there is a recording of that moment. So let's have a listen to that.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: Mozart's "Masonic Funeral Music"]

[Boy says wow]

[Audience laughs and applauds]

CO: I'm getting goose bumps. So I can just imagine what that was like. Wow!

DS: The person sitting next to me you know said that's great -- classical music is alive and living for the next generation. And then we were talking as we were laughing and he said you know I wish there was a recording of that. And I looked up and there's microphones on stage recording this concert for radio broadcasts in the future. And there we have the recording.

CO: And for you what was that moment like?

DS: It was joyous. You know to hear a young voice like that -- a young boy -- so enthralled with this music to express it, you know he couldn't hold back. It really made me feel like this is what we're all about. This is what we do to people. This is why we exist. It sums up a lot in that one "wow."

CO: So you are trying to find this kid. You put out a call. Why do you want to locate him?

DS: Well we want to talk to him about the experience. We want to thank him personally. We want to make sure he has a recording of the moment. And we want to introduce him to the conductor Harry Christophers. Harry would like to speak with him and invite him back for another concert.

CH: David Snead, CEO of Boston's Haydn and Handle Society, talking with Carol about the young mystery critic who delivered an immediate enthusiastic verdict during a performance in May. Well, that critic was nine at the time, so he didn't just go wandering into classical music concerts. His grandfather was with him, and after we learned the identity of Ronan Mattin, we contacted his grandmother, Claire Mattin in New Hampshire.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Claire as you know people all over the place have been going crazy about that captivating "wow." What was your reaction when you first heard the recording?

CLAIRE MATTIN: Oh it just sent a chill down my spine. It was kind of funny because the day of the concert Stephan came home and he told the story about how Ronan gave out this big "wow" in the middle of all the silence. And it was just a funny story -- it was another Ronan story. He's quite a guy. But when I heard the recording -- oh my.

CO: Stephan is your husband -- he is (Ronan's) grandpa -- and grandpa was taking Ronan to Boston Symphony Hall to hear that concert. And this wasn't like 1812 overture or something. It's not something with a lot of bangs and bells and whistles and stuff. What do you think it was about that touched him so much?

CM: Well I think that he picks up on the emotional tone of the music, you know. And he gets into it -- he is involved. When he's listening to music at home, he's dancing around and pretending to conduct -- it just moves him, it gets to him more than a lot of other things that we do with him to try to bring him out.

CO: When you say try to bring him out, what are you referring to?

CM: Well he is on the autism spectrum. He's mostly non-verbal. So for him to emotionally express his feelings with the word was amazing.

CO: That's all the more touching and wonderful about the story that that's the case. So how often does he express himself in this way?

CM: We've maybe heard it four or five times.

CO: Wow!

CM: Yes exactly. Exactly.

CO: How did you come to learn that the orchestra was actually looking for him?

CM: My sister saw an article in one of the local newspapers, she lives in Massachusetts. And she called me right away because I had told her the story and she said that's got to be Ronan. And she sent me the link to the article with the little sound clip in -- and I said yeah I'd recognize his voice anywhere and that's him. And then there was an email address for a David Snead who is the CEO I guess. And I sent him an email, told him it was my grandson, and he got right back to me. He called me. He said that it was just the most wonderful thing that's happened to him in the 40 years that he's been with H+H Society. And that was emotional. You know the whole week has been a rollercoaster ride.

CO: So what has he offered?

CM: Well what he told me was that the conductor that night has gone back to England which is his home but he will be back in October -- and at that time they're going to invite Ronan and the family to go back to Symphony Hall, and for Ronan to meet the conductor and some of the musicians, and then give the family a front row seat to the show.

CO: And what will that mean for Ronan do you think?

CM: Ronan will be very excited. We can tell him ahead of time that we're going back to the symphony. But to tell him he's going to meet the conductor -- I don't think that'll really click with him until he's there and actually meeting him and maybe touching his baton, his wand. That's what will thrill him.

CH: Clare Mattin, speaking with Carol in May about her grandson, Ronan. And in October, Ronan did go back to Symphony Hall and meet the conductor. He touched the instruments, kicked his feet on the floor, and sang along with the band. Well, that is overly simplistic description of what John Mann did. But over more than 30 years as the magnetic frontman for the band Spirit of the West, he did kick, and stomp, and jump, and write songs and sing them. Then, in 2014, he was diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's. It's testament to Mr. Mann's astonishing commitment that the band managed a farewell tour, during which the once kinetic singer relied on an iPod for the lyrics. John man died on November 20th. The next day Carol spoke with the co-founder of Spirit of the West Geoffrey Kelly about his longtime friend and partner in crime.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Can you tell us about your first hello? What are your first memories of John?

GK: Oh boy. Well, my wife was the one who sort of brought John into my life. They were together in theatre school, and I was playing a little bit of music with the other original band member J. Knutson. And she said boy, you ought to hear this this guy John Mann, who's in my one of my classes. He's an amazing singer. And we were so impressed by his voice and his energy. And, at that time, he was very influenced by people like Stan Rogers. He loved the East Coast sound. But there was something about him, and we just all connected really well. Suddenly, we were three and we got a little gig up at Whistler playing outside in the square. And that was kind of how it very innocently began. But right from the word go, John brought a certain kind of energy that we recognize as being something that would really make us unique. He was like a folk singer, but a punk rocker at the same time, if you can kind of imagine that combination. [CO laughs] His frenetic energy just rubbed off on all of us.

CO: That's the most extraordinary. And no one can forget that when you see how he moves. And just to say it's energy is to understate what a force he was on stage [chuckling].

GK: Yeah, and I just heard Grant Lawrence on the CBC saying that John seemed to embrace that notion of dance like no one's watching [CO laughs]. And he did with just reckless abandon. And regardless of what kind of music it was, he wasn't a delicate dancer, that's for sure. But he had his own style. And he just couldn't help himself [chuckle].

CO: Now, in 2014, John — and the band — went public with his diagnosis of early onset Alzheimer's. How difficult was it to go public with that, for him and for all of you?

GK: We put a lot of thought into how to go about it. And we felt at a certain point, we needed to tell people because we didn't want John to feel embarrassed about maybe messing up a song or people wondering why did he do that? Or why is this happening? And we felt it was the right thing to do. And then eventually, it got to the point where it just became too much for him. So we wrapped it up with a few great shows — one of which was Massey Hall, where John was just at his absolute best. He, for some reason for that show, he rallied. And I think he seemed to know the importance of it. We had always wanted to play there. And we finally had our chance. And John was such a champ that night. But I was so proud of him because it must have taken so much courage to walk out on stage, just kind of not knowing if your mind would let you down or not. And he was courageous right till the very end of his performing career, for sure.

CO: Is there a moment or a particular story that speaks to who John was for you that you hold dear?

GK: Oh boy, there's so many. One of the more humourous moments was, at a certain point in the ‘90s, I think you really felt like we were having to play way too much. And I remember being on a ferry with John talking about this, and saying I think we should really all find some different things to do, and have Spirit play way less. And I said to Johnny, you know, what do you think you would do if we kind of back off of the band? And he goes, well, I'm not really sure. But I'd be fine as long as it involves applause. [Both laugh] That was his line. And he did exactly that. He went back into theatre, and he went back into starring in musicals, and movies, and television shows. He had an amazing second career as an actor. But I always loved that line about the applause. I thought it was very John and very funny.

CH: That was Geoffrey Kelly, co-founder of Spirit of the West, speaking to Carol about his friend John Mann. The singer, frontman, and actor died on November 20th of complications related to early onset Alzheimer's. Mr. Mann was 57.

[Music: Guitar]

CH: There are still places where a musician will approach you and ask, hey, you like music? And then try to sell you a C.D. And back in the 80s and 90s, people would try to sell you their cassettes. But in the 70s, Inuk artist Charlie Panigoniak sold his albums himself in a format that was a bit less user friendly: reel-to-reel tapes. It's hard for anyone in northern Canada especially to imagine that now. By the time he died this past March, Mr. Panigoniak was a legend — sometimes called the Johnny Cash of the North, first, because he was a brilliant songwriter, who played his own version of country and western music. And, second, because he wrote especially brilliantly about living in Nunavut. And he wrote those songs in Inuktitut. In the mid-70s, Charlie Panigoniak sat down for an interview with the CBC, and explained how he'd changed the words of his songs to fit his audience.

SOUNDCLIP

HOST: Do you sit down to write a song, or does a song just start running through your head and you start to play? Where do your ideas come from for songs?

CHARLIE PANIGONIAK: Well, I came from when it’s happy. And sometime when I sleep, and wake up and think about, you know, the words I wake up. And it came just in my head. That's why I sing them. But I don't write them. I don't want to write them. he said it means I don't it's. If I sing a song, if someone is like it very much, I don't want them to, you know.

HOST: Take it away from you?

CP: If they think if they sing it, it's alright. But I don't want to write them. Because if I sing in Rankin or Baker. If I sing in Baker, NWT, I sing in their language, if I could. If I sing that same song in Frobisher Bay, instead of Baker, if I sing in Frobisher Bay, I sing in their language.

HOST: The different dialect.

CP: Yeah, but if I could, that's what I'm thinking about if, I could work that way, you know?

HOST: So you would have the same songs, but they would be different for each place that you played?

CP: Yeah, language. Just the language. And if I record a song, I didn't want to sing always the same — a little bit different words, I mean, language.

CH: Mr. Mr. Panigoniak was a giant of Inuktitut music, and a household name throughout the North. He died in March, at the age of 72.

[Music: Piano]

CO: Paul McCartney has told a few stories about writing the song “blackbird.” In one, he was inspired by hearing an actual blackbird while studying transcendental meditation in India in 1968. In another, he was playing guitar in Scotland when he conceived the line, “You were only waiting for this moment to arrive,” as a statement on the civil rights movement in the United States. So it had several meanings when he wrote it. And when Katani Julian helped rewrite it, it took on even more meanings. Ms Julian is a Mi'kmaq language teacher at Allison Bernard Memorial High School in Eskasoni, Nova Scotia. She and her father painstakingly translated “Blackbird” into Mi'kmaq. And when students made a recording and a video of that translated version, it became a phenomenon. In May, Carol spoke with Katani Julian, and Allison Bernard student Emma Stevens, who sang the new version of “Blackbird.”

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Emma you have done just a beautiful job singing this song “blackbird”, thank you.

EMMA STEVENS: Thank you.

CO: And we heard people describe it as it gave them goose bumps listening to it. Does it have the same effect on you when you're singing it?

ES: Sort of. It doesn't give me goose bumps, but I kind of get the feeling that like I'm about to get them because it’s such a beautiful song.

CO: That's what it looks like with the video of it. I feel you just getting right into those lyrics. Is that what it’s like?

ES: Yeah, I love the song. I didn't really know it in English. But the Mi’kmaq version just kind of got me into listening to it in English, and now it’s one of my favourite songs.

CO: What do you think of the lyrics, do they speak to you? I mean this is blackbird/ take these broken wings/ and learn to fly all your life/ you're only waiting for this moment to arise. That’s the English version. But you’re singing this in Mi’kmaq. What does that say to you those lyrics?

ES: They speak to me in a way I feel like it makes me more hopeful for like everything. And it should help with like how our language is slowly like disappearing. It's kind of going away. And those lyrics make me feel more inspired to like learn my language more than I already know. And to show like non-Mi’kmaq people the beauty of the song, and our language, and Mi’kmaq.

CO: And you know what? You had exactly that effect — because people were writing and contacting our show last night after we played it, and talking about how it brought tears to their eyes — even though they know the lyrics in English, but had never heard it in your language. And someone said please give me a whole album in this language. I will pre-order it right now. So did you know you're going to have such an effect on people who don't even know your language that it touched them like that?

ES: No. And I'm glad that it gave them kind of a new view on music. Our language is such a beautiful thing. And not a lot of people hear it. And I know it's just like a little song and it’s just a little cover. But in our language, it's really beautiful. And it just makes a big impact.

CO: I want ask your teacher, hi Katani.

KATANI JULIAN: Hi.

CO: About the translation. So how did you go about translating “Blackbird” into Mi’kmaq?

KJ: Translating songs that are in mainstream culture like a song like by the Beatles can be difficult because there's some concepts that we don't have in our language. Like, for example, it would say like take these sunken eyes/ and learn to see. We don't have that concept of translating it. It just sounds really odd. The concept of sunken eyes would be you do not see properly. Your vision is impaired. So I just took that concept, and I explained it to my dad. It was a little hard. I had to be back and forth with my dad about certain topics.

CO: What's the Mi’kmaq word for Blackbird?

KJ: Pu’tliskiej

CO: You mentioned the lines take these sunken eyes/ and learn to see/ you were only waiting for this moment to be free. I mean these are universal ideas, aren't they?

KJ: Yeah, absolutely. And it's familiar to us as Native people. And from what I understand, Paul McCartney wrote this about the civil rights movement in the United States. So in some sense, you know we have something in common with the civil rights movement. Because to some extent, our people have been oppressed in this country you know by the Indian Act, and you by the federal government, and you know the whole residential school thing, and attempts at assimilation. So you know it spoke to me personally like that. So it really strikes a chord in my heart as well — this song.

CO: What effect did that have on your dad when he saw Emma in the video singing the song that he had translated?

KJ: Well, he didn't know what I was asking a translation for. He wasn't too familiar with the song. But I went to him the other day before it was released, and I told him I want to show you a video of this young girl singing. And he says why are you showing it to me? I said because this is what you helped me translate several months ago, and this is the culmination of the project. So I played it for him. And he's usually not at a loss for words very often. But he was absolutely quiet. And he's a tough guy. But he had tears in the corners of his eyes. And he loved it so much.

CH: That was Carol speaking with teacher Katani Julian, and student Emma Stevens of Alison Bernard Memorial High School in Eskasoni, Nova Scotia. Ms. Julian translated The Beatles “Blackbird” into the Mi’kmaq language, and Ms. Stevens sang it

[Music: Up-tempo]

CH: On Saturday, August 16^th, 1969. The Jefferson Airplane played a show at Woodstock. It was one of the most incendiary performances at that festival, which took place 50 years ago this past summer, and has only ballooned in the cultural memory since. And the Jefferson Airplane part of it took place at the extremely un-hippy-ish hour of 8:00 a.m. Don't ask Grace Slick about that show though. I mean do. Just don't expect her to tell you it was the greatest moment of her life or even the best singing she ever did. Do expect her to digress fairly frequently though into such topics as the increase in the size of slices of bread, and making out in cars, as she did when she spoke with As It Happens guest host Nil Koksal in August.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: So much of what people heard and saw onstage at Woodstock 50 years ago is why they feel that there's this this magic still around that festival. When you think back, do you think of magic?

GS: Mostly in the air in my head, the magic of it is I don't think we realized there were that many people paying attention to the changes that were going on, and hopeful that those changes would present themselves through legal processes. And fun stuff like Woodstock was fun if you're 18 and you don't care about sitting in the mud. It's fun.

NK: Yeah, I heard that you referred to Woodstock as not amazing, but, quote, “A bunch of stupid slobs in the mud.” Would you still describe it that way?

GS: No, I don’t think they were stupid. I just think they were young. In other words, I had to stay up all night on a stage with no bathroom that I can remember waiting to go on — because something got screwed up. We're supposed to go on at nine, and we had to be on the stage until six o'clock in the morning. Now Rock and Roll is real weird at six o'clock in the morning. [NK laughs] But we did it because we said we would. I brought a white dress. And you can't run out and buy something else because it's raining. You've got a white dress, too bad. So I wore that, and I had to be very careful and put down blankets. And you couldn't see anybody because what they did was we were in a motel. Half an hour before you're supposed to go on, a helicopter comes and picks you up, drops off backstage, you go up, you play your set, then the helicopter takes you back to the hotel. So you don’t see anybody — except maybe 15 minutes of the act before you from behind. That's it. So for us, it wasn't quite as marvelous as it might be for somebody who's 18 years old. I was 29. So my idea of fun is not having to watch out for a white dress, and no bathrooms, and playing at six o'clock in the morning. So Woodstock, personally, was not fun. But the idea of it, and the idea that we attracted that many people, was kind of amazing. But that's all in your head. That's not what actually happened.

NK: I hear it was a pain just to even get in to the festival, to get there?

GS: Yeah, I mean it was a mess for a number of reasons. But if you were very young, those messes — even being 29 — I mean I couldn't even do it today. It'd probably kill me. But even being 29, it was kind of funny being backstage. And they kept saying well no, you can't go on yet. You deal with it in any way you can. But there were parts of it that were fun and kind of funny — because it was so, by then, screwed up for a number of reasons. They didn't really plan on that weather. And they didn't plan on that many people. So they had to scramble.

NK: Once you did eventually get on stage and start to perform, the “White Rabbit” performance in particular still has such a hold on people who watch it. It still gives them chills. Do you remember anything about the performance in particular?

GS: It was recorded. And it gives me chills too, not for the same reason. It’s because when you have been up all night. And I'm a smoker, so if you've been up all night smoking, [laughs] your voice is not spectacular. So when I hear the performances that we did on various things, whether it's tape or whatever it is, I just think oh God, that note is about half a pitch higher. Oh Jesus, you know? So I don't think of it the same way somebody else might. So it's different. When you go to some kind of a concert like Woodstock was, and you go my God, look at that's a half a million people. I didn't know we were that big of a group. But Americans are always blown away by size. We like big, you know? That's why everybody is fat. Bread used to be about four inches by four inches, square. Now you can't make a normal sandwich. It's just huge. So you figure oh well, I'll eat that anyway. And that's American. And we used to have huge cars, like I'm old enough to have driven a big Oldsmobile, my parents Oldsmobile. I loved it. There's nothing in the middle, so you can get busy in the backseat, or the front seat.

CH: Grace Slick, talking Woodstock, bathrooms, and bread with As It Happens guest host Nil Koksal in August. Between the original concert, and the movie, it's hard to know how many people saw that band's performance at Woodstock. But I can tell you how many people watched the performance that really put Calgary-born singer Kiesza on the map — around 158,428,000, according to YouTube. Her 2014 video for the song “Hideaway,” a single tracking shot of her dancing in Brooklyn, helped to make her 2014 album Sound of a Woman an international hit. Then came a number of singles. And then came a car accident. This year, when she returned with a new single, Kiesza revealed she's in recovery from a traumatic brain injury, sustained in that accident in 2017. Guest host Robin Bresnahan spoke with her in July.

SOUNDCLIP

RB: Kiesza, what is it like for you to be back on tour again after everything you've been through?

KIESZA: Honestly, it's been so surreal for me. The hardest thing was not knowing how my audience was going to receive me in this new way because it's very, very different. People know me as this big performing dance artist. And at the moment, in my recovery, I'm not able to do that on tour. So I decided that I really wanted to come back. It's been too long. And I had just for fun picked up a ukulele and had been playing around with it at my house. And I was like you know what? I might just go on tour with a ukulele and see what happens. And the crowds have been just going crazy. They love it.

RB: Can you take us back to the car accident? What do you remember about that day?

K: I was going to dinner actually, and I jumped in an Uber. And then All I remember is we were stopped at an intersection downtown in Toronto. We got the green light, I saw the green light, and just as the driver started moving, I saw out of the corner of my eye this taxi driving full speed. And I noticed it wasn't slowing down. And this all happened in a split second. I curled up into a ball with my seatbelt on. And the next thing I knew, the door of the car was opening, and I had this ringing in my ears just like a bomb goes off on a movie and there's this ringing. It's a real thing. It actually is a real thing. It's the stunning moment where you're just completely out of it. And then it took me about five days to really come to realize that something was really wrong — ‘cause I started walking and realized that my balance wasn't the same. And it progressively got worse and worse. And then the next thing I noticed, was I started to eat food and I ended up with ulcers through my whole digestive system. And then I wasn't able to fall asleep anymore. So I ended up with all these issues because the part of my brain that got hit was the part that does a lot of the autonomic functions in my body — including my immune system, putting me to sleep, my digestion. And so I ended up not being able to eat most food for a year. And I had to essentially live on boiled meat and water because I couldn't even digest vegetables, and very, very few herbs — so just bone broth. And it was so limiting what I could eat. But I very slowly built my gut back, which helped my head. But I'm still in the process of doing that — like I still have a lot of limitations; I can't eat any grains barely. And then I would get sick really easily; got attacked by a bunch of viruses that I never would have been attacked by before.

RB: Ugh, that sounds awful.

K: Yes.

RB: You weren't afraid that people were going to forget about you, were you?

K: Yeah, you know what? I guess when tragic things happen like this that really derail you, you think all the darkest thoughts, honestly. I didn't know — because there's so much music coming out. You just don't know if you'll get lost in the shuffle of all this new music or you know people are just going to move on. For me, it felt like I had almost died as a musician. I didn't know if I could come back. And I felt like people might after a certain amount of time they might just move on.

RB: Well, you did come back. And that's wonderful news for your fans. And we're gonna play your new single, “sweet love.” Can you just set the song up for us?

K: Yeah, so this my new single “Sweet Love.” It's the first song off my new album. And I'm really excited for you to hear it.

RB: Kiesza, it was great to hear your voice. Thanks so much for talking to us. Best wishes.

K: Thank you. I really appreciate it.

RB: Bye-bye.

K: Thank you for the support. Bye.

CH: AIH guest host Robyn Bresnahan, speaking with Kiesza this past July

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December 31, 2019 episode transcript

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