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The AIH Transcript for August 22, 2017

Hosts: Jim Brown and Karen Gordon

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

JIM BROWN: Hello I'm Jim Brown.

KAREN GORDON: Good evening, I'm Karen Gordon. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

KG: Tonight.

JB: Digging in, in the graveyard of empires. U.S. President Donald Trump offered no details when he announced greater military involvement in Afghanistan. But where some heard meaningless vagueness, The Afghan Chargé d’Affaires in Washington heard unequivocal support.

KG: Anti-symbolic gesture. The owner of a Montreal graffiti-removal company felt confident he was doing the right thing erasing the swastikas painted on old anchors in a public park, but the mayor doesn't want to see them go.

JB: Jumping back from conclusions. Just hours before Marcellus Williams was due to be executed by lethal injection, the governor of Missouri grants a reprieve after his lawyers say DNA evidence proves he's not guilty.

KG: There go the waterworks. A Newfoundland town realizes it accidentally sold off its water system when it sold its firehall. And as the mayor tells us, he and his constituents would really like it back.

JB: Beyond the doubt of a shadow. Yesterday it got dark for a little while and everyone got super excited. But while thousands were over the moon about the total solar eclipse, some critics were just like, so over the moon.

KG: And hail fellow well metatarsal. 14 time world toe wrestling champion Alan Nasty Nash explains how he keeps his opponents on their toes before they're crushed by his. As It Happens, The Tuesday edition. Radio that celebrates amazing ‘feets’ of strength.

[Music: Theme]

Trump: Afghanistan, Missouri stay, toe wrestling champ (Part 1)

Trump: Afghanistan

Guest: Zafar Hashemi

KG: It's already the longest war in United States history, and last night U.S. president Donald Trump signaled that the American military’s involvement in Afghanistan should be further expanded. His nationally televised address was light on details. He declined to specify how many more troops would be deployed or how his administration's new strategy would work. He did say this though quote, “We are not nation building again, we are killing terrorists,” unquote. Zafar Hashemi was pleased to hear President Donald Trump's address last night. He's the Chargé d’Affaires for the embassy of Afghanistan in Washington D.C. That's where we reached him.

JB: Hello Mr. Hashemi

ZAFAR HASHEMI: Hi.

JB: Now your government said last night that President Trump has embraced a strategy that gives Afghanistan what it needs. How did he do that?

JH: Well the new strategy by the Trump administration is of course as a result of working together with our American partners here in Washington D.C., as well as in Kabul, which basically shows a shift away from the timetable, and numbers, and basing the focus of strategy on conditions on the ground. That's how the situation evolved in Afghanistan, based on that the American military as well as the civilian leadership decides the future of this strategy. And the other fundamental difference in this strategy, as opposed to the previous one, is that it is very integrated. The military aspect, the economic, and political power to achieve what both Afghanistan and the United States want in Afghanistan and beyond Afghanistan is included. And their very last, and strikingly different approach in this strategy, is that way terrorism is seen and defined, particularly talking about Pakistan, and lack of action against active terrorist groups that target Afghans and Americans alike.

JB: But the address, at least, was very light on details. One analyst even called it, “an incoherent wish list that was unmoored in political reality or principle.” Can you give us some specifics? Something that the president said that convinced you this is going to be different.

JH: Our impression is, as the President himself said, that he is not going to micromanage the war from Washington D.C., but he would enable the generals and also the diplomats in Kabul ,and in the field, to think and do as necessary. And that's how we want to see it unfolding in the future.

JB: So did you feel that the Obama administration was micromanaging?

JH: Well I'm not gonna compare the administrations but the impression in Kabul, at least among the generals, and the civilian leadership at the embassy level and beyond, was that drawing timelines not based on conditions hinders their ability to achieve the common goals and get rid of the common threats.

JB: Now I know there was one line that received some mixed reviews from Afghanistan. The line in the President's speech, “We are not nation building again, we are killing terrorists.” Doesn't that give you any concern about the President's priorities when it comes to Afghanistan?

JH: The strategy combines military actions that the United States is going to use in Afghanistan, as well as the economic development and political resolution to the situation in Afghanistan. So it's a combination of the three. First we need to get rid of terrorists who are fighting the Afghan forces, and killing Afghan civilians, and targeting Americans. And on top of that in order for us to stand on our own and be able to fully defend ourselves against terrorists we need to help, and President Trump clearly stated that in the strategy that we want Afghans to win.

JB: It seems that the President was suggesting that there is a military solution to dealing with the Taliban, when most experts would say there isn't. Doesn't that concern you at all?

JH: The way we see it, we have never, as a nation bound by the constitution of Afghanistan we are always welcomed and tried to have peace talks, but peace talks, if your enemy is seems to be gaining ground, it's not going to happen. So we do need the capabilities, we do need the equipment, and the training, and materials needed in order to put the Taliban in all the reconcilable groups in Afghanistan in their corners, we have to push them forward so they feel like they are losing before they are able and before they are willing to come and talk on the table.

JB: Now in his speech Donald Trump said, “Our commitment to the Afghanistan government is not unlimited and our support is not a blank check. So I'm wondering if you're concerned that the U.S. could just walk away from all of this when it's convenient?

JH: We also did not want unlimited or open-ended commitment. We wanted, and we have always asked, for conditions on aid that we receive, and also for ways to help us help ourselves better, when it comes to improving governance, providing basic services for the citizens, providing security, as well as jobs and opportunities for the people of Afghanistan. We know that we have problems on all fronts but we also know the importance of continued American engagement in Afghanistan, because consequences of abandoning Afghanistan are beyond anyone's imagination.

JB: Now I'm sure you heard the Taliban's response to the President's statement— the Taliban said that Trump is wasting U.S. soldiers’ lives, and they promised to turn Afghanistan into another graveyard. How do you respond to that?

JH: Well if there were groups, or terrorist networks, or insurgents believing that they're going to have the opportunity to wait it out so there is a vacuum in Afghanistan that they could come in and pursue their agendas. There is a clear message to them that Afghanistan is not going to be abandoned by its international partners. It's now the right time for them to make this realisation, Use this opportunity stop being proxy for others and stop killing Afghan citizens, and Afghan civilians, join the peace process and live a normal life.

JB: But Americans have been in Afghanistan for over 15 years and the Taliban hasn't started doing that yet. What makes you think they're going to start doing that now?

JH: Well we cannot just stop trying. We have to try because it's a matter of life and death for the people of Afghanistan. It's tough, it's time consuming and at times it makes you frustrated. But we cannot do anything but to try it out and try every possible way so we stop the bloodshed and have a peaceful country.

JB: Mr. Hashemi, thank you very much for joining us.

JH: Thank you sir.

KG: Zafar Hashemi is the Chargé d’Affaires for the Afghan embassy in Washington D.C., and that's where we reached him.

[Music: Violins & Piano]

Boris Spremo Obit

KG: To his friends he was Bo, but to Canadians he was better known as a photojournalist who captured history. Boris Spremo spent his career— four years at the Globe and Mail and then 34 years at the Toronto Star— taking the pictures that no other photojournalist dared to take. At one point Mr. Spremo went 440 meters above Toronto, to take a photo of an iron worker straddling a post on the unfinished CN Tower. It's dizzying just to look at Mr. Spremo died yesterday, he was 81 years old. During his career Mr. Spremo covered dangerous conflicts all over the world and captured famous moments at home in Canada. He was known for making the people he photographed feel at ease. Like in the 1980 photo of Pierre Trudeau, his favorite subject, playfully shooting an elastic in his office. Mr. Spremo was a member of the Order of Canada, he was inducted into the Canadian news Hall of Fame, and he received nearly three hundred photojournalism awards. In June of 1984. Mr. Spremo spoke with Morningside host Peter Gzowski. He’d just released a collection of his work in a book called 20 Years of Photojournalism. This is from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

BORIS SPREMO: I don’t know if I should say crazy, but I think it's dedication and love. And no matter where I am—under a wire, up in the air, underground— as long as I had was in camera in my hand I'm happy, and I like to do what I'm doing.

PETER GZOWSKI: There other things— you walk through a minefield. Jackie Hill tells the story of going with you—the two of you were walking…

BS: Across the border of North Vietnam and we went to see just what's the situation because the city of the Quảng Trị it was completely leveled down by the North Vietnamese and the South Vietnamese.

PG: The military said you could walk across his minefield if you walked in the footsteps of the escort.

BS: He said, “wherever I put my foot, you put yours too. If you move onet a foot or two on the side you will be blown up you know.”

PG: So you went for a stroll on your own?

BS: At first I was doing it— doing you know, following his footsteps, but I thought, “well geez, I don't know there's a good picture maybe I should just try and do it my own way. So I step out that little laneway you know, and I a little bit further on the side

PG: A lot further.

[LAUGHING]

BS: So they saw me his hair went up you know, he says, “are you crazy you know, what are you doing?”

PG: A lot of people ask if you’re crazy

BS: But I completely forget about it because I have a camera in my hand, and I am looking for a picture you know, and you don't think about dangers, because I know danger is there waiting for me too but it's kind of inviting.

PG: Have you ever taken a picture of somebody and not published it out of out of sympathy for that person? Yes you have.

BS: If you remember a case of five, six years ago, it was a girl stabbed on the subway 16 times, and we caught her much as you can, you know, of that case. But now it comes to the funeral—I was sent to the funeral—and when I arrived at the funeral home and I see the coffin coming out, not only that I was hurt emotionally—because I have four girls at home myself— but when I saw the family almost collapsing over the coffin I just asked myself, “What the heck I'm doing here?” Now again comes that question, “should I or shouldn't I?” So I made decision this way. I went all the way across the parking lot, almost to hide myself, and with a telephoto lens I shot the picture, and I still have the picture at home—nobody ever saw it yet.

PG: Have you ever lost your enthusiasm for the job you do so well? Do you ever…

BS: No never, and I think it is just the beginning actually. I'm still looking forward. I mean, for another probably 25-30 years.

KG: Boris Spremo speaking on CBC Radio's Morningside in 1984. The celebrated Canadian photojournalist died yesterday, he was 81 years old.

[Music: Plucky Harp]

Missouri stay

Guest: Ken Gibson

KG: He was just a few hours away from death by lethal injection, but Marcellus Williams will live another day. The Missouri man was sentenced to die tonight for the killing of a woman during a robbery in 1998. This afternoon the state's governor halted the execution after new DNA evidence was presented that calls the conviction into question. Ken Gibson is Marcellus Williams lawyer, we reached him in Kansas City, Missouri.

JB: Hello Mr. Gibson.

KEN GIBSON: Yes. How are you today?

JB: I am just fine. I'd like to start by asking you how your client reacted when you told him that he wasn't going to die tonight?

KG: He reacted as he always does. He said that what has happened is God's will because he's always taken the position that he's not going to take an active role in trying to advocate his own cause, because he strongly believes that what is going to happen to him is in the hands of God, and that's what he said this time too. So he's he's very consistent in that belief.

JB: So he's trusting fate.

KG: Yeah he's trusting Allah because he's a Muslim.

JB: Had he prepared himself to go to the execution chamber tonight?

KG: You know I think—because of his religious beliefs— I think he was prepared for anything. But I think he was obviously hopeful this would happen and is obviously happy that he's going to live to fight another day.

JB: Now I'd like you to tell us about the DNA evidence that you believe could have changed the outcome of Marcellus Williams trial had it been available?

KG: Yes. Well I think it's important to put it in context— is that the prosecution's theory, and I think is is the correct theory about how the crime happened— was that someone broke into the house, the victim came downstairs confronted the perpetrator, who grabbed a kitchen knife out of the drawer of the kitchen, and then stabbed her to death multiple times, and then left the knife in her body. The male DNA that was detected on the knife, as a matter of common sense and intuition, has to have been that of the man who killed her. We've isolated a male DNA profile that does not match Marcellus Williams, so this unknown male DNA is, in our opinion, undoubtedly the person who murdered this woman, and it's not Marcellus.

JB: Tell us about what you've had to go through to get this DNA evidence looked at?

KG: Well we've been asking for these tests since 2006 when it first became available. We were repeatedly opposed by the prosecutors and the attorney general life.

JB: Why?

KG: That's a good question. I guess they haven't read some of the rules for prosecutors—you're not supposed to try to uphold a conviction at any cost, you're supposed to try to do justice. But I think that's lost on a lot of the prosecutors in this state, and probably throughout the country— is they will fight tooth and nail to uphold a conviction no matter how tainted it might be.

JB: Is it your contention that this new evidence exonerates your client?

KG: Yes I think if you look at the DNA exonerations, DNA trumps any sort of evidence, because it's been used to overturn convictions where there's eyewitness testimony, which is obviously fallible. Jailhouse snitch testimony, which is what we have here, which is obviously has problems —these people lie all the time to try to get out of jail, and get things for favorable consideration. It’s even been used to where there have been detailed confessions made by the defendant. The bottom line is, is that DNA is science. Science doesn't lie or make mistakes—any other type of evidence in a criminal case can be wrong.

JB: Now you say jailhouse snitch testimony, but there is other evidence that that pointed to Mr. Williams as the killer. For example he sold a laptop belonging to the victim after the murder, and it was two people that he reportedly confessed— to not just his cellmate.

KG: Well the cell mate and then also another convicted felon, a crack addict, and a prostitute who admitted that she was destitute and homeless, and was doing it for the $10 000 reward money. But we think there's pretty strong evidence that she set Marcellus up—because you have to remember the timeframe of this. This case didn't—charges weren't filed for a year—so this is linking him to property a year after the fact. It’s a lot different than if he had been arrested with the property actually in his possession the day after the murder.

JB: So the governor has halted the execution tonight. What happens now?

KG: Well I think the case is probably going to languish for a little while until the governor actually decides on the five retired judges he's going to put on this board of inquiry. Once that is done then they can start hearing evidence and ultimately make the recommendation to the governor.

JB: How do you rate his chances of walking free—of being exonerated?

KG: I think his chances are good. Like I just told you, I think DNA evidence just trumps every other type of evidence in the case. And if it turned out that they had Marcellus's DNA on this knife, then you know the prosecution would be screaming from this conclusively proves his guilt. Now we find that somebody else’s is on it, they're trying to say this doesn't mean anything, we've got other evidence—but other evidence is fallible, DNA is not.

JB: Mr. Gibson thank you very much for joining us tonight.

KG: All right. Thank you very much for your interest.

KG: Ken Gibson is the lawyer for Marcellus Williams, who was granted a stay of execution today. We reached him in Kansas City, Missouri.

[Music: Uptempo Piano]

Toe wrestling champ

Guest: Alan Nash

KG: There are not a lot of athletes in their 50s who were still at the top of their game. Alan Nash is one of them. This past weekend he took his 14th world title in toe wrestling. We reached Alan “Nasty” Nash in Stoke-on-Trent, England.

JB: Mr. Nash Congratulations.

ALAN NASH: Thank you Jim.

JB: May I call you Nasty?

AN: I'd love to be called Nasty thank you.

JB: So Nasty, 14-time world champion. How big are your toes?

AN: Not big, actually. They’re short and stubby, which is good because they don't snap as easy.

[LAUGHING]

JB: So, so size doesn't matter in toe wrestling?

AN: Definitely not there.

JB: Could you describe how toe wrestling works for our listeners?

AN: Yeah, you actually sit on the floor, put your foot that you’re toe wrestling with into what we call a toe-rack. You interlock the back the big toes—so it's the same as arm wrestling where you interlock the thumbs—and the idea is that you take the opponents foot over to it, the side board that sticks up. So if you hit the side of the board that’s your point— if you can get their foot to the side of the board you've got your bum on the floor at all times. Both your hands have got stay on the floor, and the leg that you’re not wrestling with has got to be held up in the air.

JB: So you and your opponent, your two big toes are basically interlocked?

AN: Yes.

JB: Now this might surprise you, but this particular radio program has actually covered the sport of toe wrestling in the past, and I want to play you a short clip now. This is an interview from 1994.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: How was the match, what swung it for you?

AN: Well I did actually take an injury and they semifinals.

ANNOUNCER: You were injured?

AN: Yes. I suffered a cut between the toes.

ANNOUNCER: How did that happen?

AN: Quite painful.

ANNOUNCER: Indeed. How did that happen?

AN: Pressure. I took on a big guy in the semifinals and as he pulled my toes over the skin split right between the toes.

JB: Do you recognize that voice?

AN: Yeah. I actually, a couple years after that I broke four toes in the semifinal—I actually snapped four toes.

JB: So that was you back in 1994 after your first championship?

AN: Yeah that was me.

JB: So that's 23 years and you've won 14 times. Does that does that mean you've lost nine?

AN: Sort of—now I’ve been cheated a few times.

JB: Oh?

AN: Yeah. Some people try cheating the sport, and I’ve been outsmarted a few times.

JB: How do you cheat when you're toe wrestling.

AN: With your bum up off the floor and tilting to put your body weight behind you.

JB: Oh. And the time that you snapped four toes—I can't imagine you won that year.

AN: I did.

JB: You did?

AN: I actually walked off the stage, snapped my toes back as straight as I could, and put them in an ice bucket full of ice, kept the swelling down and went in for the final and won the final.

JB: You are nasty.

AN: Yeah. The trouble with it was—a few months after I realized one of my toes hadn’t gone back, and I had to go in the hospital and have my toe taken off and put back on again.

[LAUGHING]

AN: So I didn’t completely heal after. The guy that I broke my toes competing against— I coached him and he went through and he won the title that year when I didn't compete. And I said, “now keep the trophy nice and warm, and I'll come back next year and I'll take you both, and take the trophy back,” and I did.

JB: It's like Rocky 5.

[LAUGHING]

JB: Now when we looked you up in our files there were two subjects listed under your name. One was “toe wrestling” but the other one was “chicken whispering”

AN: Yeah, yeah I do chicken whispering as well.

JB: What is chicken whispering?

AN: It's actually hypnotizing chickens and drawing pictures of them.

JB: Hypnotizing chickens?

AN: Yeah.

JB: To what end?

AN: Well you can put different coloured chickens on the floor and you can draw pictures.

JB: You can draw a picture, like trace the chicken?

AN: No, I draw—we use a coloured chickens, different coloured chickens to do a picture on the floor. Now if you go up in the air and look down you can see the whole picture— a little doodle, or a flower pot or something.

JB: So you use the chicken as the paint brush?

AN: Yeah you use the chicken as the paint really—like a montage of chickens.

[LAUGHING]

JB: What part of the chicken?

AN: You use the whole chicken. You just spread it out and use itto make a picture out of it. I haven’t don’t that for a while actually.

JB: So there's got to be a story in in the day when you discovered that, A: you could hypnotize chickens, and B: that you could use that to draw pictures with.

AN: I used to have three hundred and sixty pet chickens. I sued to rescue chickens and play games with them. I also hold the Guinness World Record for breaking eggs between my toes.

JB: I was just about to mention that, you were on Britain's Got Talent doing that weren't you?

AN: Yeah.

JB: And how many eggs have you broken?

AN: Well I had the record for eight years I think it was—52 eggs in one minute— some American guy last year decided he wanted it—and he did 54 eggs in one minute, and everybody reckoned that, that couldn’t be beaten. But I managed to do 60 minutes.

JB: So the current record, as we speak, is 60 eggs in a minute? How does it feel to have all of these unique, and diverse, and unusual talents?

AN: It keeps me alive.

JB: Now you're a 14-time world champion. You've been doing this for a while now. Are you in your prime as a toe wrestler, or are you eventually going to age out to the younger toes?

AN: That's the problem—the younger ones just don't seem to be able to keep up with me. I'm very patriotic and I want make sure that when I retire it’s a good Englishman that beats me. There was no way I’m retiring this year. Hopefully next year somebody will be coming up good enough to hand the reigns over to, but I doubt it.

JB: Well Nasty, congratulations once again on your title. And thank you for talking to us once again. 23 years after the first time.

AN: Yeah. Bye

JB: Bye.

KG: Alan nasty Nash is the 14-time winner of the World Toe Wrestling Championships. His latest win was on the weekend. He was in Stoke-on-Trent, England. To see some photos and video of Nasty Nash in action go to our website www.cbc.ca/aih.

Pointe-des-Cascades swastika, Bell Island sale (Part 2)

Pointe-des-Cascades swastika

Guest: Corey Fleischer

KG: It looks like Corey Fleischer is going to have to tell a judge why he doesn't like the Nazi swastika. Mr. Fleischer runs a Montreal graffiti-removal company called Provincial Power Washing. He's also the founder of Erasing Hate, a group that scrubs away hate symbols that have made their way into the public space. Last week Mr. Fleischer heard about a swastika, it was on an anchor in a park in Pointe-des-Cascades, just outside of Montreal. Mr. Fleischer had all the necessary equipment—then he says the local mayor showed up. We reached Corey Fleischer in Montreal.

JB: Hello Mr. Fleischer

COREY FLEISCHER: Hi, how are you?

JB: Very good. Could you describe this anchor and the swastika for us?

CF: Yeah. So basically I got a report from one of my followers that he had seen a swastika in a park. And you know, like every other day I headed over to go see the swastika. And when I got to the park I basically saw something that I had never seen before. It was a World War II era anchor, sitting in the middle of a public family park, painted tri-coloured—beige, white and black—to enhance the swastika.

JB: So this is a little different than a swastika spray painted on someone's garage door or on a mailbox?

CF: It's extremely different. This is a public place. This is a place where people come to convene—of all different cultures you know— to have a sign like this, in a public place in 2017, is extremely unacceptable. You know, look there's many points to this that that just really are wrong. The city, OK this is a very, very well-groomed park, and there's an anchor thing that's there, and they painted this anchor three colors beige white and black. Now they're stating that this relic, even though the plaque at the bottom states that it's a World War II era anchor, that this anchor is basically comes prior to World War II, and stating you know that this swastika has nothing to do with a Nazi swastika. But if they did their research and they actually knew what they were talking about, what differentiates a Nazi swastika from any Hindu swastika, or swastika, or any other swastika in time, is a white circle and black lines, and that's exactly what they had painted on this on this anchor.

JB: OK well, you remove swastikas for a living. What did you start to do when you saw this swastika painted on this anchor?

CF: Well you know, the fact that I knew that it was a Nazi, you know, swastika on this anchor I decided that I was going to remove it. And during that process the Mayor showed up to the park.

JB: And what did the Mayor say?

CF: The Mayor threatened me to get out of the park. He told me that if I didn't leave the park that he was going to call the police. You know, little did he know that his bullying tactics literally had zero effect on me. I continued removing the Nazi symbol that was painted on this World War II era anchor, and he called the police. And once I was done you know, he was still on the phone with the police, and he told the police that I was leaving and I looked at him and I said, “I'm not going nowhere.” I said, “I'm sitting here for the next however long it takes for the police to show up so that I can show them this hate crime that's been sitting in this park for over 25 years.”

JB: And then what happened then? Did the police show up?

CF: The police showed up and they sat there, they intervened in what was going on. I showed them exactly what it was. The mayor looked at me and told me that he was going to repaint the swastika exactly the way it was, with a white circle in the back with black lines. I told him if he did that and I would be back the next day to come and remove it again, and that I would come back the next day after that, and the next day after that, and that I will never stop.

JB: And what did the police tell you?

CF: Well, when the Mayor found out that I was going to keep on coming back, you know, forever, and ever, and ever you know, he told the police is going to press charges for destruction of property, as a way to keep me away from that park. And that's basically kind of what's going on right now. I have my lawyer on it. You know, we're going to have —this is the Canadian version of the Confederate statues coming down. We're going to sit there and we are going to fight as hard as we can to get this anchor pulled out of this park and put into a museum, a proper museum, one where people know what they're walking into, you know, and until that happens we're not going to stop.

JB: So have you been charged with defacing public property?

CF: Everything right now is in the air. You know, I was handed a piece of paper— it's a promise to appear in court— but right now all legal statements, and all legal matters, everything has to be directed towards my lawyer.

JB: So you don't know what kind of trouble you're in, if any?

CF: The worst case scenario with damaging a property you know, for removing the paint that the city had put on there, but you know, if anything I was helping that city. Look, this is this is a public park, where people pay taxes. Can you imagine that there could be a survivor who lives in Pointe-des-Cascades, who is paying her or his taxes in order to have the city paint this swastika— with a white circle in the back and black lines— so it is a Nazi symbol. I just basically, the Mayor has been nonstop saying that this hasn't been anything to do with Nazism see them or you know anything relating back to that era. I just found out, literally 20 minutes ago, that somebody sent me another picture, that 20 feet in back of this anchor, was another swastika anchor 20 feet in back. And on the plaque it says, “Souvenir Nazism,” and then underneath it says, “Hitlerian souvenir,” which means, from translating French to English, that is a Hitler souvenir. And if that's not any more clear, if that doesn't point out exactly what I'm dealing with, you know, then I don't know what really does.

JB: Now we tried to reach the Mayor to talk to him but he hasn't gotten back to us yet. But the municipality of Pointe-des-Cascades put out a press release with a quote from the Mayor and it reads, “The village of Pointe-des-Cascades does not endorse Nazism. Anchor Park is an open air museum so that people can discover the history of our village. To avoid confusion the city plans to install new plates that will better explain the origins of these anchors. What do you make of that?

CF: This is one of the anchors—one of the two anchors is from the Hamburg line. It has nothing to do with Pointe-des-Cascades. This is just a Mayor who's bringing in, who's had anchors coming in to bring you know, people to come into his park, and to bring an attraction to this place. It is an extremely beautiful town. I'm not sitting here saying that everybody is Pointe-des-Cascades is Nazis. He's not saying that they condone Nazism, I'm not saying that. This is something that deals with pure ignorance— the fact that the Mayor has no idea what he's talking about.

JB: Mr. Fleischer thanks for taking our call, we appreciate it.

CF: I appreciate you guys taking care of the story. Thank you very much.

KG: Corey Fleischer is the founder of the hate symbol removal group Erasing Hate. We reached him in Montreal.

[Music: Folk Guitar/Banjo]

Bell Island sale

Guest: Mayor Gary Gosine

KG: The town of Wabana, Newfoundland was trying to sell the old fire hall, but it may have accidentally accepted an offer it should have refused. It seems that along with the fire hall the town sold its advanced water treatment system, valued at upwards of three-hundred-thousand bucks. Now Wabana wants it back. The town's lawyers are asking for a deed of rectification that reflects what they call the true agreement between the owner and the town. We reached the Mayor of Wabana, Gary Gosine in Wabana.

JB: Hello Mayor Gosine.

MAYOR GARY GOSINE: Hello Jim Brown.

JB: Now when your town decided to sell the old fire hall did you realise what else you were selling?

GG: We asked for requests or proposals, and the only building they were selling was our old fire hall—a building, not buildings.

JB: So how did this water treatment system get tied up into this?

GG: I think it’s all over an “s.” When the papers were done up, I think it's said “buildings” instead of “building” and it was closed and now it's a matter of who gets back the property that the town once owned. It’s down to our lawyers, and hopefully the lawyers are going to pick up the tab, so the taxpayers will pay nothing over a silly mistake. And the gentleman don't give it back— which he says he’s not—well then, I guess it’s going somewhere in court. And right now it’s in the lawyer’s office for the best interests of the town.

JB: The town lost it’s water system because of the letter “S?”

GG: Yeah well, we never lost it yet because we still got it. And I was just down in front of that water station with a picture being taken out of me, where people were filling up their water bottles.

JB: So it was all a mistake?

GG: I think it was all a mistake over the letter “S.”

JB: How does that happen?

GG: Happened through the lawyer’s office. When I signed on the dotted line I had thought that it was signed by other people, and there was nothing to it. I’ve signed many letters, and many transactions and an honest mistake is turned into a nightmare. But at the end of the day we're going to get our building, that was never taken away from us. I can’t say back to us, because it's gonna go back to the rightful and respectful owners— which is the town of Wabana and Bell Island, Newfoundland.

JB: Are you upset about this?

GG: Not even a bit, but I’m a little bit shocked in the fact that this gentleman is claiming that it is on his land.

JB: I understand that Mr. Bennett— the man who bought the fire hall and the water treatment facility according to him— I understand he sent you a lease agreement. Can you tell us about that?

GG: He sent us a lease agreement, which was when we looked at, we came up with one answer, or diagnosis, or the way we took it, it was laughable. And we said we better start on this right away. Even though he said there was nothing to it. And when we started—now next we're into, I won’t call it a nightmare. It’s kept me very busy today— not shocked, not upset. CBC gotta love them. They called me— my first call on the morning show, it was six o'clock this morning.

JB: Now I understand that this lease agreement he's asking for $3000 a month right.

GG: I never even seen the likes of that. And if we're late he was going to charge us 50 dollars a day for being late. He did send me and other council a personal email.

JB: How is it that your lawyers didn't know that when you sold the old fire hall you were also selling your water system?

GG: No we weren't because that water system was— we had figured that the building was another piece of property, and we had a fire truck on display, and an old car and we never in our wildest dreams thought we were selling the ADWS (Advanced Drinking Water Systems). So he's only dreaming. And now I think he's going to pay the price for trying to serve us.

JB: According to Mr. Bennett, he said to the Telegram, he said, “It’s on my deed, I bought a manufacturing property and all the buildings and erections on it, not and forever.

GG: Well, now and forever now is going to come in the hands of a judge pretty soon.

JB: Are you embarrassed?

GG: Not in the least bit. Not embarrassed because of the fact that I'm only one of seven, and it should have been picked up by somebody a lot higher than me, and it have been picked up by the lawyers or the people that help them, because it was a legal document before or came to us. It should have been all checked out.

JB: But you're the Mayor, you're the Mayor of a town that just sold its water system.

GG: No. that’s not true. You're saying that, we're saying no we didn't.

JB: If, if you lose in court Mr. Bennett will you pay his lease

GG: I doubt it. We'll just put up another water station I guess, but I can’t see it coming to that.

JB: Mayor Gosine, what are the people in your town saying to you about all of this?

GG: They’re not saying a lot because they haven't seen me, because I’m back and forth on the ferry all day and given interviews all say. So I guess, at the end of the day I’ll hear something. As I always answer my phone honestly, 24/7 every day.

JB: Well I guess the media wants to talk to you so bad because you might be the only Mayor in Canada that accidentally sold his own water system.

GG: You're saying that. It gives us exposure. To the day we’ll make it worthwhile. We’ll make sure the people of the town of Wabana, at the end of the day, have saf, clean drinking water that's a one-hundred per cent true statement.

JB: Mayor Gosine, thanks for joining us.

GG: You’re more than welcome sir.

KG: Gary Gosine is the Mayor of Wabana. That's where we reached him. We requested an interview with Jim Bennett the owner of the company that bought the disputed property. He declined for now on the advice of his lawyer.

[Music: Ambient Bells]

Sonny Burgess Obit

KG: Today was a somber day Dieppe, France as people gather to remember those who fought and died, in what was then a German-occupied French port. The August 1942 Allied raid was supposed to be a turning point in the war against Germany. But none of the operations objectives were met. Instead, just hours after their first landing, all allied troops were either killed, evacuated, or left behind to become prisoners. Canadians were on the front lines at Dieppe of the five-thousand Canadian soldiers who took part, more than half became casualties— nine-hundred-sixteen died there. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was there to mark the 75th anniversary of the battle. Here's part of what he said

SOUNDCLIP

PRIME MINISTER JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Today, we honour those who fought, with such grit and valor, on the beaches of France. As we sit here in the rain, thinking how uncomfortable we must be, these minutes as our suits get wet, and our hair gets wet, and our shoes get wet. I think it's all the more fitting that we remember on that day, in Dieppe the rain wasn’t rain, it was bullets. As we stand here seventy five later. With this duty, and this act of remembrance, it is all too fitting. Today, and every day, we recommit ourselves to the pursuit of peace and justice for all. Today, and all days, we remember.

KG: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau speaking earlier today in Dieppe, France, marking the 75th anniversary of the day that became Canada's bloodiest in the entire Second World War.

[Music: Theme]

KG: That's it for As It Happens this Tuesday August the 22nd.

JB: You can always find us on the CBC Radio app. It's free from the App Store or Google Play

KG: As It Happens will be back again tomorrow when Jim will speak with an Indian divorce lawyer about the suspension of the practice of triple talaq. That practice allowed Muslim men to instantly to divorce their wives. I'm Karen Gordon. Good evening.

JB: And I'm Jim Brown. Good night.

[Music: Theme]

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August 22, 2017 episode transcript

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