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The AIH Transcript for March 28, 2017

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

CO: Military Imprecision. Airstrikes targeting ISIS in the Iraqi city of Mosul killed as many as 200 civilians. But it looks more and more like the U.S.-led coalition is responsible.

JD: Return to the dissenter. Three years after they participated in pro-democracy protests in Hong Kong, Nine activists are arrested immediately following the election of a new Beijing-friendly chief executive.

CO: The deleted stats of America. The Trump administration has begun methodically erasing scientific data to the horror of a research community that's watching its material dematerialize.

JD: Former captive audience. Last night, we heard an interview from 1977, between the late Barbara Frum and a woman in a hostage situation. Tonight, we're going to return to the archives to hear them speak freely about her subsequent freedom.

CO: You don't get a second chance to make a first impression. And, in fact, an activist in New Zealand may not get to punch his environment minister at all, but he's challenging him to a boxing match anyways.

JD: And… they've got legs that just won't quit. Somewhere around six million of them, in fact, all attached to insects in a collection an Arizona couple has amassed over the decades, which they are now donating to a lucky University. As It Happens the Tuesday edition, radio that hopes that school has gone past resist-ants to accept-ants.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Mosul air strike, Arctic researcher, New Zealand water activist

Mosul air strike

Guests: Tim Arango

JD: Bulldozers are still making their way through the streets of Mosul, recovering bodies. Iraqi officials and residents say an airstrike 11 days ago — and others since — have killed as many as 200 people, mostly civilians. The U.S.-led coalition has confirmed carrying out a strike in the same location. And today, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, Lieutenant General Steven Townsend, acknowledged that there was quote, “a fair chance the United States was responsible.” Tim Arango is a New York Times reporter based in Iraq. He was in Mosul over the weekend. We reached him today in Erbil.

CO: Tim, are they still recovering any survivors of the airstrike in Mosul?

TIM ARANGO: No, I think by now it's been well over 10 days now. So there are no survivors. They’re still trying to find bodies though. I think they've pulled out now well over 100, so there's several probably dozen more still buried and that final death toll could be as high as 200, or even more.

CO: When you left Mosul what did it look like the neighborhood in which this strike was made?

TA: Oh, it was absolutely devastated. The whole city block was flattened, but I was there you know more than a week after and there are residents of this area — this block — pulling bodies out and looking for their loved ones and it was an awful scene.

CO: This marks one of the worst civilian death tolls ever in Iraq following a U.S. air strike. Were people there given any warning that this was happening?

TA: No, nobody said they had a warning that it was coming. And for the civilians there's also a street battle raging and so they're caught between the Islamic State fighters, who are trying to blend in with them and fight and use them as human shields and the approaching Iraqi security forces on the ground. And then, of course, the airplanes in the skies, so there's nowhere for them to run at that point.

CO: The people with whom you spoke, what did they say happened?

TA: There was a street battle going on and you know for days and the ISIS fighters were using their houses as fighting positions against the Iraqi Special Forces, who were battling them. They would punch holes between walls and so they could go between houses without showing themselves on the street. And then they would also take positions as snipers on the tops of civilian homes and so for the civilians, when that happens, they know that they're in particular danger because when there's a sniper those are the types of targets that airstrikes will often try to take out.

CO: Tell us about the airstrike then?

TA: Well, the coalition confirmed that they carried out a strike there on March 17th. Dozens up to 200 had crowded into basements of these homes. There are some conflicting stories about whether or not the Islamic State herded them into the basement thinking that there would be airstrikes and wanting to kill them or that they sought shelter on their own. Most of the civilians I talked to said they just fled to the basement because they thought that would be the safest place.

CO: And what's the U.S. government saying about its role in this?

TA: They first on Friday confirmed that they were investigating it. The next day they confirmed that they did carry out a strike in this location. And then just a couple hours ago, the top American general in Iraq said after investigating he believes that the coalition was at least partly to blame for this. So that's another step forward. He also said there is still the theory out there or the possibility that the Islamic State booby trapped the house and took them down as well. So you know there's a lot of blame to go around.

CO: And what is the USA saying was the intended target of this airstrike?

TA: Islamic State fighters, snipers on the roofs and equipment. They've been pretty clear about that.

CO: Did they know there were large numbers of civilians in the building?

TA: They have very precise munitions and I don't know everything about this. I'm not an expert on it, but they do have the capability of taking out a sniper on a roof while not damaging the building next to it. But it should have been clear to everyone and it was obvious that there were civilians in there not least of all because one of the strategies of this battle has been asking civilians to stay in their homes. The Iraqi government dropped leaflets and radio broadcasts ordering civilians to stay in their homes. Partly because they don't feel they could contend with a big humanitarian crisis from so many refugees.

CO: Who called in the strike?

TA: The Iraqi Special Forces did. We spoke to the general whose men called them in. You know in most every case, the Iraqis are doing the fighting on the ground being aided by American air power. And they make requests for these airstrikes from the ground.

CO: The ones you spoke with say that they feel that the Americans have taken on a more aggressive role since the Trump administration that they are less risk averse than they had been during Obama's time and that this is a very different kind of a campaign. What do they mean by that?

TA: They had long voiced concerns about they thought the Obama administration was way too cautious and that they would refuse to carry out certain strikes that they would take too much time. And every officer we spoke to said that they've noticed that now, there is much less time taken to consider the risk to civilians and they're much more receptive to these airstrikes. But it also should be said that this coincides with the most difficult phase of the Mosul battle where they're moving into the west side, which is very densely populated. Narrow alleyways filled with civilians, so it's much more of a difficult fight and it puts civilians at such a greater a greater risk.

CO: But the Iraqi commander says Yeah it's a nasty war in return for liberating the entire city of Mosul. We are fighting a dangerous terrorist organization in the world. This comes with the territory killing civilians. Do you think that the U.S. administration agrees with that approach?

TA: I would never say that the U.S. government agrees with the sentiment like that. I do think that the Iraqi forces in particular, this is six months into this battle, they have had a lot of losses and they just want to get it over with. And there's also it should be said a widespread sentiment among the Iraqi forces that civilians inside Mosul are complicit with ISIS and so their first priority doesn't seem to be protecting civilians, it seems to be winning this battle so they can go home.

CO: Amnesty International is saying today that they don't believe the United States is and the U.S.-led coalition is taking adequate precautions to protect civilians. Does that compare well with what you've seen on the ground?

TA: Well, this was clearly a tragic mistake and clearly something went wrong. And clearly if they are going to fire missiles into these densely populated areas then they made the wrong decision and didn't take the most care in this situation. I don't think the Americans want to kill civilians, but hopefully this is a wakeup call and there will be lessons learned.

CO: Tim, I appreciate you speaking with us tonight. Thank you.

TA: Thank you. I'm happy to be with you. Appreciate it.

JD: Tim Arango is a New York Times reporter based in Iraq. We reached him in Erbil.

[Music: Dream Caravan/Cultural]

Arctic researcher

Guest: Victoria Herrmann

JD: Just like the Arctic sea ice is sadly melting away, so too is scientific data on the Arctic. Back in 2014, Prime Minister Stephen Harper oversaw the destruction of research data from several offices of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans that were being closed down. Now, U.S. President Donald Trump is doing the same in his country. Some researchers are seeing their data disappear before their eyes. Victoria Herrmann is the president of The Arctic Institute, a research organization based in Washington, D.C. And that's where we reached her.

CO: Ms. Herrmann, when did you first notice that research data about the Arctic was vanishing?

VICTORIA HERRMANN: The first time that I was alerted that some of my citations were deleted was on inauguration day. I was told by our website's content manager that the most important Arctic policy is to the United States our national policy on the Arctic, our strategy and implementation plan were no longer valid links.

CO: And those are three links. Can you describe a bit more on what they contain?

VH: They contain the guidance for what the United States prioritizes in the Arctic region including scientific research. But also things like helping communities and ensuring that search and rescue is viable in more remote areas.

CO: Do you think it was a coincidence that it was disappearing on inauguration day?

VH: I think it speaks to a broader change from the Obama to the Trump administration that those links were very prominently placed on the Obama White House page. And currently, there is no mention of the Arctic on the Trump administration’s White House. And while there inevitably will be some lost links between one administration and the other in the White House. There are far more complicated and continual deletions going on in other parts of the federal governments like the Department of Energy or the EPA that we work pretty closely with.

CO: Since that time, since you notice that those links were disappearing, has anything else gone?

VH: Yeah, I get maybe one to two requests a week to update citations.

CO: And what happens when you go to look for that data?

VH: When you click on the link that was originally posted on our research reports. It gives you a 404 page or says that's no longer valid. So what we have to do is Google around to see if anybody has archived that page. Sometimes there is another nonprofit or a think tank that has downloaded it as a PDF and sometimes we find it kind of in the back of other government agency sites. There have been cases where we no longer have those links and we have to search for alternative data from another research institute in the Arctic that we can then link to. What is a big issue beyond the missing links is the public availability. That is not readily available like it used to be. So when a concerned citizen or a scientist wants to access data about greenhouse gas emissions in the Arctic or renewable energy it can’t be easily and quickly accessed by federal sites any more. You have to do a bit of digging to hopefully find similar data that either someone has archived or they have done their own research institute.

CO: This issue of data and research disappearing is not confined to the Arctic is it?

VH: Unfortunately this is not just about the Arctic it's about the wider American climate change narrative. That across the country whether it's the U.S. Pacific territories, up in the Arctic, or in the continental United States you're seeing data and again across a number of sectors. That includes greenhouse gas emissions and methane emissions here in the continental United States. But also things like NOAA Sea Grant that those really important work on marine ecosystems that now is a lot more difficult to access. And, of course, this is also combined to budget cuts of those programs. So it's not just the deleting of current data, but there's also a lack of funding to ensure that we are building on top of the data we already have.

CO: We saw something similar in Canada during the time of Stephen Harper government and I think scientists in the U.S. noticed it as well that a number of research projects of about science and to climate change were canceled, programs eliminated and finally, there are a whole number of libraries. Parts of Fisheries and Oceans and other data that was in regional libraries were shut down and destroyed. There were people in the U.S. that joined in scientists trying to save the data. Were you part of that? Were you aware of that?

VH: I was aware of it. I was living in Canada in 2013 and 2014. So I was acutely aware that there was data being lost through the administration. And I think it's, as many pointed out, a lesson to be learned in the United States that the data that was lost was only the start of what the Harper administration was doing broadly to climate change data in terms of muzzling scientists who were speaking publicly to engage and educate the public on the ecological risks of climate change and also what they could do. And all the way to the international arena of pulling out of the Kyoto protocol and disengaging from the conference of the parties of climate change at the United Nations. So yes we've seen this before in Canada. And from Canada we know that it doesn't stop at the deleting of data sets. It continues on from there to influence scientific production and engagement with the international community on climate change.

CO: We will leave it there. Ms. Herrmann, thank you.

VH: Thank you so much.

JD: Victoria Herrmann is the president of The Arctic Institute, a research organization based in Washington D.C. And that is where we reached her. From disappearing climate change data to disappearing climate change policy. Today, U.S. President Donald Trump signed an executive order to dismantle Barack Obama's Clean Power Plan. A policy that required U.S. power plants to significantly reduce their emissions. The President was accompanied on stage by a group of coal miners when he announced the move in Washington.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: Over the past two years, I've spent time with the miners all over America. They told me about the struggles they've endured. I actually in one case, I went to a group of miners in West Virginia, you remember Shelly. And I said how about this why don't we get together, we'll go to another place and you'll get another job? You won't mine anymore. Do you like that idea? They said no we don't like that idea. We love to mine. That's what we want to do. I said if that's what you want to do that's what you're going to do. And I was very impressed. They love the job. That's what their job is. I fully understand that. I grew up in a real estate family and until this recent little excursion into the world of politics; I could never understand why anybody would not want to be in the world of real estate. Believe me so I understand it and we're with you 100 per cent and that's what you're going to do. OK?

JD: U.S. President Donald Trump, speaking today in Washington, D.C. The new executive order goes beyond reversing the Clean Power Plan. It includes several other moves aimed at dismantling President Obama's climate legacy.

[Music: Ambient]

From Our Archives: Barbra Frum and a hostage

JD: It was a once-in-a-lifetime story brought to you, as it happened, by a one of a kind storyteller. Yesterday, in memory of CBC journalist Barbara Frum, who died 25 years ago Sunday. We replayed an interview that aired on March 21st of 1977, with a young man who had just walked into a Toronto bank armed with a shotgun and held the staff hostage. After Barbara heard his demands, she had him hand the phone to one of the hostages. And then she coordinated a negotiation between the hostage taker and the police superintendent all on the air. And you can hear that surreal exchange on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih. Well after 12 hours, the gunman surrendered to police and soon after it all ended. Barbara frum was back speaking with hostage Lois Lefebvre about her ordeal. Here's some of that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

BARBRA FRUM: Hello.

LOIS LEFEBVRE: Hi.

BF: How do you feel today?

LL: A lot better today than I did yesterday.

BF: Could you really be business as usual on the job?

LL: No, well to tell you the truth, I went to sign my name today and instead of writing letters I was writing numbers. So that sort of gives you a little hint of the way I’m feeling. I’m here in body, but not really in the mind.

BF: It's funny isn't it how you can go through a crisis and be calm and then collapse the minute it's over.

LL: Well, that's what I was trying to do. I thought if I can only hold out until I get home. And then once I'm home I can do whatever I want.

BF: When we spoke to you, you sounded so cool you almost defused the whole crisis right there.

LL: Well I don't know how I did it? I guess I was just I was really trying to keep calm because I thought I don't want to get this guy excited. You know and I don't want everybody else to get excited because I don't know what he’ll do?

BF: Was he serious or was he…

LL: Oh I think he was serious. I mean it was a little bit wild, but I believe he was serious. I mean if anybody comes in with a gun you know they mean business.

BF: Did he talk to you at all about it?

LL: No, he didn't say a word. We didn't even know that he wanted to go to Uganda until you told me. And then I thought my God, he must really be something to want to go there of all places. I’ve heard of people asking for ransom money and you know a getaway car or something like that, but never anybody asking to go to Uganda.

BF: Not into the clutches of Idi Amin

LL: That's right.

BF: Willingly.

LL: I couldn't understand it. You know after I hung up, I went and sat down with the other people and I was thinking about it. I thought well maybe he wants to go over there and be a big hero and try to assassinate Idi or something. I don't know what was going through his mind, but that's what I thought at the time.

BF: Did he ever say what he was doing with the police on the phone?

LL: No, not at all.

BF: You were completely closed out of that?

LL: That’s right. That was just between him and the police.

BF: Were you aware of the police? Did you feel that somebody was working on your behalf?

LL: Oh yes, I knew because I had come down in the meantime. He had sent me to get some lunches. And when I came down, the police were all at the door and they started asking me a lot of questions.

BF: You saw all that action out in the street.

LL: That’s right. So I knew they were there. So I felt a lot better.

BF: When you knew you were going to get out do you remember the instant?

LL: I felt great. I was so relieved. I was really relieved.

BF: Did you run?

LL: No, my legs were too shaky.

BF: How do you feel about the gunman?

LL: I decided he’s crazy. I was afraid of him, of course. He stressed the point that he wasn't here to hurt us. As much if I wanted to believe that, whenever I took a look at the gun I just thought woo.

JD: From our archives, that was former As It Happens host Barbara Frum, following up with Lois Lefebvre, whom she had first spoken with hours earlier, while she and several of her colleagues were being held hostage by a gunman in a downtown Toronto bank. And you can find the initial interview between Barbara, Ms. Lefebvre and her captor and a police negotiator all at once on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: The Forest/Folk]

New Zealand water activist

Guest: Greg Byrnes

JD: Conservationists are often branded as tree huggers. But Greg Byrnes wants it known he is more of a fighter than a lover. The New Zealand activist recently took out a classified ad challenging his country's environment minister to a fist fight. We reached Greg Byrnes in North Canterbury, New Zealand.

CO: Mr. Byrnes, why have you issued this boxing match challenge?

GREG BYRNES: Well, I guess it's about being frustrated by how far away our politicians seem to be from the common people, which tend to include myself in. And I just came up with the idea and then tried to put as many different ideas into a very short advertisement, so that it would be picked up.

CO: And what is the message you're trying to send to the minister the environment Nick Smith.

GB: Basically what I'm saying to him is you can't change the rules halfway through and then tell us everything is going to be OK. Our minister for the environment has said that we can literally double the fecal matter in rivers and in 2040, 90 per cent of them will be swimmable, which is just ridiculous.

CO: So he said that by 2040, 90 per cent of the rivers in New Zealand will be swimmable. But he's changed the rules.

GB: Yeah that's right. So I made reference to the Queensbury Rules in my ad, which is the standard sort of fighting rules if you're going to fight with anyone anywhere in the world. If you say you're going to fight Queensberry, that’s the standard you're going to use. So I wanted to put that in there because it's really important that if you're going to talk about stuff that's impacting not only on us now, but certainly future generations. I think we all need to be sort of measuring the same apples.

CO: In what ways has the government — the minister — lowered the water quality standards in those swimming holes?

GB: Well, basically here in Canterbury where I live, we've had this dairy cow boom so literally there are dairy cows everywhere. And, of course, we're extracting water to irrigate grass and also to wash in fertilizer. So this beautiful water that we've had is now been polluted. We're getting less and less of it, so we're getting less of a recharge to the ground water because we're extracting. And it’s just becoming degraded, but it's become a big issue here. And the minister has said yes, I hear what you're saying. We're going to make 90 per cent of our rivers swimmable by 2040. But the way that he's doing that is changing what's currently known as “wait able” to the new “swimmable” standard. And effectively what that means is with the loading of fecal matter it's going to be acceptable that one in twenty people are going to get very ill.

CO: Now you're trying to make a point by challenging the minister to this boxing match. What happens if someone loses? What's the deal you offered?

GB: You had to actually get into the swimming hole and frolic around for a minimum of five minutes. There is a beautiful area not far from where I am, but I thought the great sort of irony to it all is on our local regional council, who were involved with monitoring and managing fresh water call it a swimming hole and yet it has its worst classification for water quality.

CO: Do people swim there.

GB: No longer unfortunately. Because it's one of those areas that you're going to get awfully sick.

CO: But the environment minister says it is swimmable according to the criteria.

GB: That's right. Now these are the areas that near you could probably wait through it and I guess if you wash yourself down on the other side you'd probably be OK. But that standard now will be the new “swimmable”, which is just craziness.

CO: Nick Smith, the minister, has tried to demonstrate the swim-ability of the rivers before at another river. He took a dip in the I think the Manawatu river?

GB: That's right. I don't recall him putting his head under. It's a shame someone didn't make the effort to actually hold him under for a while because we might of had a different sort of point of view a week later.

CO: But the Minister is making the point that this river is perfectly fine for swimming?

GB: That's what he was saying.

CO: How are people responding to his claims?

GB: Well, we've got a whole heap of people over here have been sort of fighting the good fight. A number of sort of really high profile water ecologists, particularly a guy named Dr Mike Joy from one of our universities. He's sort of coming out and said look this is what we've been looking at and researching and here’s the hard numbers and this is what it means. But unfortunately, anyone who sort of puts the heat up above the parapet with that type of information you know the minister is coming out and sort of calling it junk science. And I don't want to get carried away, but it's a little bit like your southern neighbor would say with alternate truths and facts. We are sort of getting that sort of line by our minister now.

CO: Fake news you mean?

GB: It's a little bit like that. If you don't agree with them there are actually alternative truths or facts that they can provide.

CO: And that’s what you’re up against?

GB: I think so, but I think that's not just here in New Zealand it sort of seems to be the standard around the world.

CO: Have you had any response from the minister to your challenge?

GB: Well no, but yes. The minister's office said they would not be responding to the challenge. However, they want it noted that this government is doing more for fresh water than any government before. So they've responded. So that's kind of a good thing.

CO: So no boxing match?

GB: No and just between you and I and your listeners, it's probably a good thing. He looks pretty wiry actually, but maybe push comes to shove I think I could probably take him.

CO: But if you can’t, you end up having to spend five minutes in that river.

GB: yeah, and I certainly don't like the idea of that.

CO: Mr. Byrnes, thank you.

GB: Thank you.

JD: Greg Byrnes is a conservationist in New Zealand. We reached him in North Canterbury. You can find more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

Part 2: Hong Kong activist, Arizona bug collectors

Hong Kong activist

Guest: Kin Man Chan

JD: They took to the streets to demonstrate for what they believed in. And now, they might be taking their beliefs to jail with them. On Monday morning, nine activists were arrested by Hong Kong police for taking part in pro-democracy protests in 2014. The arrests came immediately after the election of pro-Beijing lawmaker Carrie Lam as Hong Kong's next chief executive. Our guest says that that is no coincidence. Kin Man Chan was one of the activists arrested. He has since been released on bail. Mr. Chan is also one of the founders of the Occupy Central with Love and Peace movement. We reached Kin Man Chan in Hong Kong.

CO: Mr. Chan, tell us about this phone call you got from the police.

KIM MAN CHAN: well, I got a phone call from the police early in the morning on Monday, asking me to go to the police station to be arrested. And then they told me that they were going to charge me because of my participation in the movement The Umbrella movement.

CO: The protests in the streets. And so what are they charging you with?

KMC: It’s a very complicated charge. There are three charges. First is about conspiracy to commit public nuisance. And the second one and the third one is about incitement, particularly the third one. It is about how we incite to commit public nuisance.

CO: What does your lawyer say might be the penalty? What kind of time might you serve for these?

KMC: Well, for each charge the maximum penalty could be seven years.

CO: On Sunday, we heard the victory speech of Carrie Lam, who has now been elected chief executive of Hong Kong. What do you make of the timing of these arrests?

KMC: I was so surprised not just for the charges because they were so peculiar. Also because of timing, it was just one day after the election day. And I still remember when Carrie Lam mad an acceptance speech saying that to bridge the divide in the community is her first mission. And then we received a call from the police and it is sending a very bad message to the community saying that the government have no sincerity to create dialogue with the opposition.

CO: The understanding was that what she was saying when she was campaigning was that she was going to bridge these divides and unite the society. Did that give you encouragement? Did you think she might actually bring those kinds of values to the job?

KMC: I'm not very confident because right before the election, she make a decision of bringing museum from Beijing to Hong Kong without going through a proper consultation. And she was so proud of the way she did it and it really contradict was she promise in her campaign. So I would have to wait and see what happens next. I can’t trust her words now.

CO: You can't trust her, but she said she still wants to unite the society and bridge the divide. But, she said at her press conference, all these action should not compromise the rule of law in Hong Kong. So that's a different kind of message isn't it?

KMC: Yes it's a different kind of message. I hope that she can tell us more. We have been arguing for so long because of political reform. And she told the public that she was not going to launch another round of constitutional reform within this term. So without touching on these very fundamental issues how could she really resolve the conflict in these communities? And now, with this prosecution and it seemed that she endorsed it how can people believe that we are going to reconcile?

CO: There was so much hope in the air during that Umbrella Revolution in 2014. We spoke with people who were in those demonstrations. They thought that something might change. How do you keep that hope alive given what's happened on Monday with all the arrests?

KMC: Yeah, it was a massive peaceful demonstration. So it was reasonable for people to expect something to come out. But certainly Beijing they didn't respond at all. But luckily a group of young professional people are not going to give up. And they've formed many different groups and even legal political parties. And then they joined a different kind of the election. And they got very good results and it was very encouraging to Hong Kong people. So I believe we deserve democracy.

CO: We saw the election on Sunday. Only a fraction of people who were allowed to even vote in that election — only .03 per cent of registered voters in Hong Kong were able to cast a ballot. So how is it possible that you will ever see lawmakers in Hong Kong who supports your movement?

KMC: Yes. You see it is a very unfair system, but I guess many people understood already that this is not sustainable. So it is hopeless if we can change the system. But I feel happy that in the past ten years, more and more people now understand this is very much the problem. The younger generation now become the most important force fighting for democracy. But this time I also witnessed something during the elections. Even middle-class people, middle-aged people they gave so much hope to a candidate. So now they are very frustrated because the candidate got very strong support from the communities. But then this very popular candidate was not selected by Beijing. I hope that this group of middle-age, middle-class people will then also join the young people and then we can you know fight for democracy together.

CO: You're facing many years in prison for having had this demonstration — having led it. So what kind of message do you think they're trying to send to those young people who you're trying to encourage?

KMC: Well, before I joined this movement I was a professor. I'm not a politician and I’m not a very prominent public figure, but I believe that it was my responsibility. So I left my comfort zone and then I joined the movement. And I hoped that it could send a message to the community that this is a prayer that belongs to everyone. We should hold our own destiny in our own hands.

CO: Mr. Chan, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

KMC: Thank you very much.

JD: Kin Man Chan is one of the founders of the Occupy Central with Love and Peace movement. We reached him in Hong Kong. And on Monday morning, Mr. Chan was one of nine activists arrested for participating in the pro-democracy protest in Hong Kong in 2014.

[Music: Indie folk]

Second Scottish reform

JD: If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Especially if Brexit happened in between your attempts. Today, the Scottish parliament voted in favor of a new independence referendum to take place next year or the year thereafter. The last the Scottish vote for independence took place in 2014, and ended with 55 percent of Scots choosing to stay in the UK. But with British Prime Minister Theresa May ready to trigger Article 50 tomorrow, thus beginning the process of exiting the EU. Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said it was a question worth asking Scots again.

SOUNDCLIP

NICOLA STURGEON: When article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty is triggered tomorrow, change for their country becomes inevitable. That change should not be imposed upon us. We should have the right to decide the nature of that change. The people of Scotland should have the right to choose between Brexit — possibly a very hard Brexit — or becoming an independent country.

JD: Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon addressing the parliament in Edinburgh today. The United Kingdom immediately rejected the new bid. Addressing Scottish independence earlier this month, British Prime Minister Theresa May said to quote, “Now is not the time.”

[Music: Folk]

Arizona bug collectors

Guests: Charles O’Brien, Lois O’Brien

JD: When I see a bug, I do not immediately consider its fascinating exoskeleton. I do not take a specimen so that others may marvel at its beauty. I smash it and smash it and smash it. And while I do, I make sounds that are not words. Thankfully however, Charles and Lois O'Brien react quite differently. For decades, the entomologists, who are now in their 80s, have been travelling around the world deliberately trying to find insects and collecting them — lots and lots of them. And now, the couple has announced that they plan to donate their collection to Arizona State University. Its estimated worth is around 10 million U.S. dollars. We reached Charles and Lois O'Brien at their home in Green Valley, Arizona.

CO: Charles, I want to start with you. How many bugs have you and Lois collected?

CHARLES O’BRIEN: Oh good heavens, it's difficult to say. We have over a million and a quarter in our collection at home and we've probably exchanged twenty five or thirty thousand specimens a year for a number of our earlier years.

LOIS O’BRIEN: By that he means we’ve exchanged with other entomologists. We've also donated some to museums in earlier times.

CO: Lois, the ones in your house, where do you keep them?

LO: We have two rooms we call “the labs”. He has his office, his microscope and his computer and the walls are lined with cabinets up to about 24 drawers high. The center of the room has 12 drawers so that he can take a drawer out and set it on top of the cabinets and then he's able to work on it.

COB: And her lab is similar. It was a room we added on to the house in order to be able to have space for the collection.

CO: Just in case people are wondering, these are dead bugs. These are specimens that you have mounted and categorized.

COB: They’re all dead.

CO: Lois, what is it that you like. I mean we spend, as humans, huge amounts of time and energy trying to control bugs or kill them or prevent them. What is it that draws you to them? That you like so much about them?

LO: Well, I was a chemist. I took a job half time in the entomology department. And the professor talked about bugs to me and bugs can do everything we can do and everything else. Most of the insects we don't know what they do. We think they're just sitting peacefully on plants sucking juices or maybe flying around and biting us. But when you actually see what they can do they're fantastic. They can live underwater, they can fly and wouldn’t you like to do those things? They can sting people. I have a neighbor I'd love to sting. So they're just wonderful. And some of them are beautiful.

CO: Charles for you, what is it that you love about bugs?

COB: Well, I like going into the field to collect them. I've traveled all over the world doing that and I've been to all of the continents.

LO: Including Antarctica.

COB: I’ve been to 70 countries. My first foreign continent was Antarctica. I spent five months there collecting and I lived in the jungle in the Solomon Islands with the natives and spent five months there on five different islands collecting. I do love the field work and I love the collecting and I like finding new things.

CO: There’s another part of the story isn't there and it’s about how the two of you found each other. You fell in love with bugs and you fell in love with each other and all this travel and research you did as part of your life as a couple. But Lois, you were mentioning how you the professors were drawing you into this. How did you meet Charles?

LO: After I'd been there the spring semester and the summer semester, I asked the professors if I could take the entomology course and they said I could. And I said I'll make up the time they said no, you don't have to, except you'll have to make up the lab. And so I took the lectures and Charlie was the lab.

COB: I was the teaching assistant in the lab.

LO: But I could only stay in the lab for 15 minutes and then I had to go back to work. So he would tell the students all during the lab other things and at the first quiz, I walked up to him after the quiz — I’d missed a question — and I said this is what I said, this is what the book said. How do they differ? And he said they don't, but I told the class the book was wrong. I put my hands on my hips and said you didn't tell me that the book is wrong. And he folded his arms in front of his chest and said I told the class the book is wrong. I can't help it that you weren't there.

COB: And I can’t spend my time chasing you around just to tell you things that are different.

LO: And I said well then tell me the name of the best student and I'll get notes from them. And he said I've only given one test. I don't know the best student is. So it was a challenge.

COB: We did some collecting after the course was over and I went on to Berkeley for my Ph.D. and Lois decided she wanted to be an entomologist, so she went to San Jose in California for a semester or two to get some courses and then she came to Berkeley.

LO: It was the number one school in the country.

CO: So Lois, you fell in love with Charles or bugs first?

LO: I guess it was about the same time. I certainly didn't fall in love with him because of the bugs and I certainly didn't fall in love with the bugs because of him.

CO: So he drew you into the world of entomology and all the travel looking for these insects?

LO: Yes. And it's been a wonderful life. I love traveling to foreign countries. I love learning their customs.

CO: Tell us how much traveling did you do together? And was this most the holiday time?

LO: Oh no.

COB: I had grants. I was on grants at different institutions and had travel funds to go to these places and Lois came with me.

LO: Primarily for biological control. When a weed is introduced in the United States — a plant is introduced and it turns out to be a weed here, but it isn't a weed in its original country. Entomologists are sent by the USDA to collect any bug that feeds on it. And then those bugs are checked to see if they feed on anything else. And if they don't, then they're introduced into a…

COB: A quarantine facility.

LO: In the U.S. to make doubly sure they don't feed on anything else and then they're released. And it saves millions and millions of dollars. So when he would go on this trip his way would be paid — his airfare and hotel would be provided. So we just paid my airfare and I stayed in the same hotel room. And then while he was collecting in the water to do his job, I would be collecting around the shore. And then those insects we would not give back to the university or the USDA because I collected them and we mounted and labeled them and they became ours.

CO; And now this collection — this extraordinary collection — of insects that you have so carefully preserved and labeled is now to go to the University of Arizona State. They're saying that this is extraordinary. This collection is a thousand of your insects that are quote, “new to science”. Why are you giving it away?

COB: Well, we're in our 80s and we’re not going to live forever. And we want to see it go to an institution that will benefit from it and respect it and understand the value of it.

LO: And continue the work.

CO: Charles and Lois, it is a delight to speak with you. Thank you both.

COB: You're welcome. Thank you.

LO: Bye Bye.

CO: Bye bye.

JD: Charles and Lois O'Brien are entomologists who are donating their vast insect collection to Arizona State University. We reached them at their home in Green, Valley Arizona. And you can see some photographs of Charles and Lois and their bugs on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Pixel Paxil/Indie]

Legs-it

JD: Last month when Prime Minister Justin Trudeau met with U.S. President Donald Trump. Do you remember what it was that stood out most as they sat together in that Oval Office? Their gams or their legs artfully hidden from view. There's no doubt that both of those guys feel the most dangerous arms in their arsenal are their legs. And yet those shapely shanks remain sheathed in pants. Perhaps as veiled threats, or perhaps because it was too cold to wear shorts. Now at the time, I didn't really notice that because I'll admit that at the time, analyzing politician's legs seemed ridiculous to me. Then came today's Daily Mail. By now, you've probably seen the front page of that British tabloid, the world's preeminent chronicler of the sex lives of British reality shows stars. There is a photograph of Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon and British Prime Minister Theresa May. They had just met to discuss a Scottish referendum on independence. In other words the future of the UK. And the Daily Mail headline reads, “Never mind Brexit, who won the Legs-it?” Now at first, that might seem unfathomably stupid and mind bogglingly sexist. It might even seem that the Daily Mail is not just mocking to women who are world leaders, but mocking the very idea that women and their legs should have the audacity to be politicians at all. And then you read the article and the analysis by Sarah Vine, which closely examines their body language. Ms. Vine opines quote, “But what stands out here are the legs and the vast expanse on show. There is no doubt that both women consider their pins to be the finest weapon in their physical arsenal. Consequently, both have been unsheathed.” And she goes on to analyze the legs to which the women are attached. And to conclude that Scottish independence is a bad idea because of the position of Ms. Sturgeon’s, in Ms. Vine's words, “Ms. Sturgeon’s shapely shanks”. The tabloids leg-based political analysis is being described as quote, “moronic”, quote, “sexist” and even quote, “sinister”. But what is clear is that the Daily Mail is out to make a point. So when British Prime Minister Theresa May said today that it was just people having quote, “a bit of fun”, she was wrong. It's very serious.

Part 3: Toronto bar complaint, New Brunswick jail house

Toronto bar complaint

Guest: Haily Butler-Henderson

JD: To Haily Butler-Henderson, her disability is not a big deal. She has been using crutches to get around since she was six-years-old. She is now 24, but Ms. Butler-Henderson says that her disability was a big deal to an employee of a Toronto bar this summer. A big enough deal that she was physically prevented from accessing the bathroom at the Pentagram Bar and Grill. And now, she has filed a human rights complaint against that bar. We reached Haily Buttler-Henderson in Toronto.

CO: Ms. Butler-Henderson, what brought you into the Pentagram Bar and Grill in the first place?

HAILY BUTLER-HENDERSON: I had to use the bathroom because I was waiting for a bathroom across the street that was occupied.

CO: And so you went across to another place to see if you could use their facility?

HBH: Yes, that's correct.

CO: And what did they say to you when you went in and asked?

HBH: I asked to use the bathroom and I was denied. And then I asked again and the woman got very loud and refused to let me use the bathroom based on the fact that I might fall down the stairs because of my perceived ability. I have spina bifida I'm essentially walking on crutches paralyzed from the knee down.

CO: Did you have any concerns about going down the flight of stairs into the basement?

HBH: No, of course not, I told her that I live in a house with stairs. But she just got in my face and she just kind of got loud and refused to allow me to use it.

CO: What do you mean she got loud?

HBH: Just verbally aggressive.

CO: So what did you do?

HBH: Well, I asked a couple more times and eventually she did end up blocking the doorway at one point. And then essentially let me go to the bathroom on the premise that the whole bar was the witness that if I fell down the stairs that she wasn't going to be liable.

CO: So in the end she allowed you to go down the stairs?

HBH: At the very end of it yes, after leaving me feeling a little humiliated and getting very loud.

CO: And how difficult was the staircase to navigate?

HBH: I don't know? It was just a normal staircase.

CO: You've done it before?

HBH: Well, I live in a house with stairs.

CO: I know there's a lot of bars and restaurants that will have quite steep basement stairs down to the facilities. This was pretty normal?

HBH: Yes it is. And I think it definitely brings up you know the issue of accessibility to washrooms, but I also think it brings up the issue that, everybody no matter disability or really anything, everybody should be able to use the bathroom.

CO: You know that we found online we found a case of this same bar and grill having had a lawsuit against them before for somebody falling down those stairs in the in the bar or falling downstairs in that bar going to the bathroom. Were you aware of that?

HBH: Yes I was, I wouldn't say that it's particularly related to this case you know. But if it is in their mind related to this case, it certainly doesn't excuse that behavior.

CO: Because the’y might have been sensitive to that when they were trying to prevent you from going down stairs.

HBH: Yeah, exactly.

CO: But that doesn't change things for you?

HBH: No it does not.

CO: What do you hope to change with your complaint?

HBH: So I hope this will promote a bigger, broader change of people not infantilizing people with disabilities or deeming them incapable just by perceptions or quick glances. All people should have accessibility to washrooms. You know in the modern world it's unacceptable to look at somebody and deny them that basic human right.

CO: The bathroom in this place was in the basement and that's the case in so many establishments isn't it? I mean not just in Toronto, but in cities they generally locate the bathroom in a basement or downstairs. How limiting is that for you and for I guess a lot of people?

HBH: Well, for me, I've learned to adapt as many disabled people have. And I'm sure there are people that would not be able to do that. But the correct thing to do in that situation is either to find a way to make your bathroom accessible or to ask if they need help or just to leave them alone. You know and let someone determine for themselves if they can use that bathroom — if they're able to get there or not.

CO: How difficult is this for you? Being so public about something that happened to you in this bar trying to get into a bathroom? How difficult is it for you to be to be talking about this to the media?

HBH: I didn't really want to talk about it at first for a while, but I do realize that the media and the attention being brought to this is part of what's going to help make the change and make the difference. And set the precedent that you know in a country like Canada in the year 2017, this kind of thing is no longer acceptable.

CO: At first you weren't going to complain and then what persuaded you should?

HBH: Actually it was my mom and then her talking with Lauren…

CO: Lauren your lawyer?

HBH: So the realisation that this could be a lot bigger than just me and a lot bigger than just disability. And you know a lot bigger than just washrooms and this one bar.

CO: All right. We'll be following your case. Ms. Butler-Henderson, thank you.

HBH: No problem. Thank you.

JD: Haily Butler-Henderson has filed an Ontario human rights complaint over alleged discrimination against her at Toronto's Pentagram Bar and Grill. We reached Ms. Butler-Henderson in Toronto. And As It Happens did attempt to contact the bar for comment. We were not able to reach anyone.

[Music: Folk]

From Our Archives: Flint’s new pipes

JD: It is not a solution, but it is a start. Today, a U.S. federal judge approved a deal reached by the state of Michigan and the city of Flint to replace thousands of underground pipes as part of a settlement deal with the community's long standing lead-tainted water crisis. The plan calls for roughly 18,000 water lines to be replaced by 2020. Michigan has agreed to pour 87 million dollars into the project with another $10 billion in reserve should more pipes need replacing. Residents of Flint, of course, have been dealing with this crisis caused by corrosion from aging pipes leaching into the water since 2014. And last year, after Michigan's attorney general announced criminal charges against three public officials in relation to the crisis. As It Happens I spoke with Flint resident Melissa Mays. Ms. Mays told Carol about the toll that the tainted water was taking on the health of her three sons. Here's some of that conversation, from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

MELISSA MAYS: My kids are sick. Their white blood cell count is low, so they catch everything. They get sick whenever anybody around them is sick. So they miss a lot of school. They cry in the night because of bone pain. My middle child fell off his bike and broke his wrist. His two bones in his wrists shattered because they're so brittle. My oldest is struggling in school and he's a very bright child. The past year has just been a huge hit on them. And then, of course, I'm off work because of sick leave. So now we have half our income and the sick leave is due to the liver problems and stomach problems. It's just one thing after another and it's exhausting. It's been two years and we are still afraid of our taps.

CO: When we first started covering this story, we spoke to this pediatrician, Mona Hanna-Attisha, who was one of the first to blow the whistle on this. And the lead levels she was finding among children who were coming to see her was extraordinary. And that it was just a small amount of lead for a short period of time can lead to all kinds of problems: behavioral problems, lower IQ and even possibly to people and ending up with criminal records. They've been able to relate to lead poisoning. So how worried are you now about your boys?

MM: I'm terrified because they're telling us that we're not going to see the full effects of the heavy metals poisoning for up to five years. So we could have another three years of a guessing game to watching our kids go downhill. And the most we can do for them is change their diet. I mean and we have, but there's still no medical treatment available in Flint. So all of these parents that can’t afford the organic vegetables and all these more expensive foods are just stuck watching their kids suffer. And it's just unbearable.

CO: Is moving an option for you?

MM: We can't. We're seven years into a mortgage. We can't sell our home. I don't know who would want to buy our home with poison water. We would have to file bankruptcy and then that means I can't co-sign for my kids student loans. So that's just going to hurt him more in the future. So no, we're stuck here. And, of course, morally this house poisoned my family, I couldn't sell it to somebody else's family and watch them suffer too. I just couldn't. We're sticking here, we're fighting and we're going to make a change for us as well as other cities in the United States.

CO: Whatever changes you could make might take a very long time because the pipes that were taking the water from the river have now been corroded. It would take $60 million and as long as 15 years to replace those pipes. So are you in it for the long haul?

MM: We're in it for the long haul. We have 11 bills we're pushing through the state legislature for Water as a Human Right to make what happened to us illegal here in Michigan and hopefully other states follow through. And hopefully we're going to be a good example of what happens when you treat water as a commodity — people die.

JD: From our archives, that was Flint resident Melissa Mays speaking with Carol on April 20th of last year. Yesterday, Michigan and the city of Flint did agree to replace about 18,000 residential water lines by the year 2020.

[Music: Classical guitar]

New Brunswick jail house

Guest: Bill Steele

JD: Since he retired, Bill Steele has been looking for a new place to live. And not some cookie-cutter bungalow or townhouse mind you. He wanted someplace special, someplace different and he has found it. Mr. Steele, of Toronto, is preparing to move into his recently purchased new digs: a former jail in Dorchester, New Brunswick. We reached Bill Steele in Oshawa, Ontario.

CO: Bill, what do you think it will be like to live in a former prison?

BILL STEELE: I think it's going to be awesome. I'm looking forward to it. Things can be pretty unique and I’m very, very excited.

CO: How did you come to buy this place?

BS: I've been looking to retire at some point in the future and I've been looking online at something unique. I was actually looking in Nova Scotia and you know the key word search of an old farm maybe something like a warehouse or something like that. I just keyed In unique property and this jumped up in New Brunswick. So I took a look at it and fell in love with it.

CO: I mean did you go and down take a look?

BS: Yeah, so I flew down. I talked to the owner last year, it was a set price and I talked to him and talked to him a few times. And then I had heard there was some media coverage that the price had been reduced a bit. I talked to him again and I flew down and spent a few days down there, took a look at it and I bought it.

CO: What does it look like inside. I've seen pictures of the outside that has red brick and is very forbidding looking in many ways. What's it like?

BS: It's got all the original cells downstairs. It's got like 15 cells downstairs — like two rows of then. Upstairs it's got a large gym. It's actually a business where people exercise that used to be like the common area for the prisoners. At the front of the building is the old warden's residence and the nurse's station. There's a visiting room, an industrial kitchen and it is very commercialized at the front.

CO: And it has a coiled barbed wire fence around the exercise area and everything. So you like that part?

BS: It's razor wire. Yeah, that's pretty cool. That's pretty something.

CO: What do the cells look like?

BS: They're like big stone I think probably imported from England I would imagine. They are big square stones. It's very cold, very tall, big metal block cage with steel bars and a door. I went into the attic and the whole attic has actual slats of steel so the prisoners couldn’t dig out the ceiling if they ever went up to the second floor. So it's quite a unique structure.

CO: It was built in the 1800’s. What do you know about the inmates who spent time there?

BS: I just understand that there is a famous instance in 1936 when they hung the Banister brothers, Daniel and his brother. They were hung there for kidnapping actually and it was the last double hanging in the Brunswick that took place right in front of the jail itself.

CO: I mean I don't want to say anything bad about someone's home, but the pictures I've seen are pretty creepy.

BS: Yeah.

CO: You like that part?

BS: That's very attractive to me. There was a gentleman in Toronto, Billy Jameson, who is a great collection of oddities and collections and he had a beautiful loft. And I was always in awe of that and that inspired me to look for a unique place for my collection and a unique place for me to spend the rest of my life and retire. And a bonus is that it is right in front of beautiful scenery in a beautiful community and it's got some great history. It's like everything I could ever imagine, so I'm doing it.

CO: And this is your retirement home?

BS: This is my retirement home yes. I pulled the plug at work. I walked away from work. I was there 29 years. a little bit early to retire, I'm 50-years-old and I'm selling my house currently and I'm going to do it and that's it.

CO: Do you mind if I ask you what you paid for it?

BS: No, we're not going to go there.

CO: it was a good price?

BS: It was a good price, yes.

CO: And it's a big place. What do you think it would take to heat it?

BS: It's huge. Thankfully New Brunswick has one of the lower power electrical rates in Canada compared to Ontario. So it looks like I’ll probably hit that place for about the same price I heat my place in Ontario. My little bungalow and I'm not lying.

CO: Knowing what we do about Ontario Power rates, it's not surprising.

BS: Yeah, it's insane. And that's actually a contributing factor I couldn't afford to stay here and retire. And even if my house is paid off I couldn't afford it with the rates. I just can't do it. I have to leave, so I've found something that's affordable and I'm going encourage as many people to retire down in New Brunswick as I can.

CO: Now you've had some contacts and people who have history with this jail. What have you heard from?

BS: I've heard from former inmates, people who work there as well. And they would like to come back and visit the place at some point before I did any renovations. Some people asked and they just want to kind of see where they were and maybe just do a final visit to it and check it out. Yeah, it's very interesting. Some people in my family — extended family — I’ve found out worked in that actual building. So that's very that's very cool as well.

CO: The former inmates of the jail, why do you think they want to go back?

BS: I think probably releasing some demons it seems. There was some talk from a couple of people about some issues some people are having maybe about being incarcerated. And it's been a long time and you know they would kind of maybe like to address that and I'm open to something like that. Absolutely, if I can help anybody else that they feel would help.

CO: And they want to see it before you do anything. What do you want to do?

BS: I plan to do a lot of stuff, but what I actually do? I don't know yet. I have a lot of plans. I’m very motivated and I can't wait to get my feet there to tell you the truth. I'd like some sort of accommodations. I've always wanted to stay in a jail and I'm going to provide that opportunity for people to stay in the jail. Check it out with the door unlocked and maybe something else a little antique shop. I’ve always been an antique dealer and collector on the side and I have a collection of oddities and unusual stuff and I’d like to put that on display. Now that I understand the great history associated with the building, maybe set up some sort of a display or something like that as well. I’ve got a lot of plans.

CO: Well Bill, happy retirement to you.

BS: Thank you very much.

CO: Thank you. Bye bye.

BS: Thank you.

JD: Bill Steele is a recent retiree and the new owner of a decommissioned jail in Dorchester, New Brunswick.

[Music: Bluegrass]

Fire hereo

JD: It was Saturday afternoon when Mackie Martineau saw the flames. Mr. Martineau works as a counselor at the Calgary Dream Centre right across the street from Urban Square Mall. And Urban Square Mall appeared to be on fire. So Mr. Martineau leapt into action. He told Doug Dirks, host of CBC Calgary's “Homestretch” what happened next.

SOUNDCLIP

MACKIE MARTINEAU: And I just started going door to door as fast as I could. Got to a little massage parlors shop there and there was two ladies up on the top floor. They had no idea what was going on. So I was hollering at them c'mon guys there's a fire, let's go, let's go, let's go and one lady, she was good. She cooked her down the stairs and ran out. I opened the door for her and she was able to pass the shop next door that was on fire. And when the second lady came down, she had quite a few things in her hands. You know iPad and stuff like that. We heard a loud pop right before we left the door. And when we went outside, the shop next door the windows had blown out and the fire had spread across the roof and across the floor of the second floor patio I guess.

DOUG DIRKS: the landing.

MM: Yeah, the landing there. So we were definitely trapped. And I mean I remember looking at it and I don't know I didn't treat it so much as a threat it was just an obstacle. We had to get out and couldn't go that way, so there's the balcony right there. And went on to the balcony, helped her over the balcony and at that moment, there was another man actually. And he came flying down the stairs and he vaulted that balcony and it's a good you know 10 maybe 15 foot drop. He vaulted that thing all the way down. Luckily he didn't hurt himself. So I started hollering for help and some people came over and we helped that lady down. You know she was very scared saying I can't do this, I can't do this. And some of the stuff that The Dream Centre taught has taught me is words of encouragement and eye contact. So I looked her in the eye and said you got this, you got this you know. And I let her down into the arms of the people below. And that's when the fire really started to pick up and my hands started getting pretty warm. So I looked down and our guy was there. I said you got me man? He said yeas and I hit the ground and still I was in game mode.

DD: The adrenaline must have been pumping too?

MM: You know it's weird like I've had adrenaline rushes for sure. I mean I'm a recovering drug addict. You know we talk a lot about living in the moment in recovery. Not worrying about the future or in the past. And that was a profound moment for me. I was very, very much in the moment. There was no adrenaline I was there completely 100 per cent.

DD: You're being called a hero for your actions and the firefighters say you and some of the other witnesses who got involved saved lives. What do you what do you make of that?

MM: On the hero statement, I mean for me it's a little hard to see myself as a hero. You know because I like I said, I went into autopilot really. Like there was no thought involved. On the fact that we saved lives, I agree with them. And I'm very, very grateful that I was there at that moment. You know right person, right time, right place type of deal. But with me being a hero thing, I mean I always want to push this onto the bigger message right. Like I came from a place last year I was homeless. I was addicted to fentanyl. I was actively trying to kill myself. And here we are a year later, and what I want the message to be is that it doesn't matter who you are or what walk of life you hail from, you can change your life there is hope.

JD: That was Mackie Martineau, speaking with the host of CBC Calgary's “Homestretch”. Mr. Martineau helped rescue people from a burning strip mall in Calgary over the weekend.

[Music: Electronic]

From Our Archives: Surstromming

JD: You can't really blame investigators if they're hoping for a red herring. Anything to lead them as far away as possible from the actual rotting herring at the center of this case. Unless, of course, they happen to be fans of surstromming that being Baltic herring, which has been lightly salted and then left to ferment for months before it is canned. It is considered a time honored delicacy in Sweden. Well like it or not, it is likely that no one at the offices of the country's Tax Agency, Social Insurance Agency and Enforcement Authority was happy it turned up in their mailboxes on Thursday. And then staff noses turned up and let everyone to the source of the stench, which had been stuffed into the boxes at all three agencies with the rancid juices running down onto the floors. Officials suspect it was just a prank. And you have to admit, it would smell funny. If you're still getting the scent of what I'm talking about, get a whiff of this. In 2010, three Brits posted a video of themselves online opening a can of surstromming. Here's how that sounded.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER ONE: Why is this delicacy, I don’t understand it at all?

SPEAKER TWO: Just hold my nose.

SPEAKER ONE: I don’t want to throw up because it's going to come back up. You want some?

SPEAKER THREE: Yes, I would love to try a little bit. Why would you do this? That is going to haunt me for the rest of my life.

JD: That video made us curious. And so As It Happens decided to dig in a little deeper. So guest host Peter Armstrong reached Ruben Madsen producer of a brand of surstromming called “Eric The Red” and president of the Surstromming Academy. Here's some of that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

PETER ARMSTRONG: Mr. Madsen, you just heard the reaction of those British men to surstromming. Now I saw another video of some Germans eating it. They said it tasted like a diaper. And then it was like having a dead mouse in your mouth. How would you describe it?

RUBEN MADSEN: I would say I'm not surprised that the British lost empire. But I like that clip because they were actually making comments about the smell. The point is that when you open the can, the smell is very aggressive and has a very dominating the character. So if you survive that situation, you will end up tasting the fish. To be honest, I think it tastes like heaven.

PA: Like heaven?

RM: Yeah it's different. It's something new. Something you can't recognize from anything else. And that makes it so unique. Actually and personally I am working, more or less, to provide this journey for people. A lot of foreigners. So I think that if you can survive the smell and pass that situation and go into passion. When you have the passion you will realize the value.

PA: So it's a journey that you have to take to get there, but do you understand why so many foreigners find it so off putting?

RM: I feel sorry for them. They are doing it the wrong way. First of all, you have the can. The can should be cold. And you sit down and you have maybe a drink a glass of champagne. You talk to one another. You feel the smell of the potatoes, the dill, the onion and many things. And you create some kind of passion. It's like to a man or woman you like this person. This inspires you and makes you enthusiastic. So when you have that feeling and then you open the can then the smell that comes is very aggressive. But if you combine it with some curiosity with caution it appears totally different. The strong smell, more or less, increases the passion because you think whoa this must be fantastic. So when you get down to the taste that's when you get the kiss

JD: From our archives, that was As It Happens the guest host Peter Armstrong, speaking with Ruben Madsen, president of the Surstromming Academy back in June of 2010. An interview that very nearly did not go to air because quite frankly, Mr. Madsen's assertions did not pass the smell test.

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March 28, 2017 episode transcript

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