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The AIH Transcript for March 18, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As it Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Pandemic stricken. With new forms of COVID threatening to send more of the country into a third wave, we ask Canada's Health minister where we stand in the fight

CH: Trying times. Two Canadians are about to go on trial in China, where not guilty is usually not on the table. But Canada's former ambassador to Beijing says there is a route to freedom for the two Michaels.

CO: Turning horror into hope. Our guest endured hell inside Syria's notorious prisons. Now the 25 year old has dedicated his life to telling his story and he'll tell us why he believes some kind of justice is still possible.

CH: Disinviting criticism. Supporters of the victims of the Montreal massacre tell Justin Trudeau to fix his proposed gun control bill or forget about attending events that commemorate the Polytechnique shooting.

CO: Define toothcomb. Earlier this month, we heard about one family's quest to get a made up word into the dictionary. Tonight, a listener shares an effective way to use "orbisculate" in context.

CH: And putting the doub in dubious achievement. Two top players made chess history this week when they both began with an opening called the Bongcloud. So named because you'd have to be totally high to think it would work. As It Happens. The Thursday Edition. Radio that leaves no turn un-stoned.

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Part 1: Not too late for Canada to fight a 3rd wave of COVID-19, says health minister

Patty Hajdu

Guest: Patty Hajdu

CH: Patty Hajdu is looking at a COVID crossroads. In one direction, Canada's Health Minister says Canadians can look forward to the millions of weekly vaccine doses that her government has secured, which should bring the pandemic to a halt. In the other direction is what many are already calling a third wave of COVID-19 -- driven by fast moving new variants that are spreading as some provinces struggle to deliver vaccines to Canadians who want them and to convince the hesitant to take them. We reached Canada's Health Minister, Patty Hajdu, earlier today in Thunder Bay, Ontario.

CO: Minister Hajdu, is it too late for Canada to avoid a full blown third wave?

PATTY HAJDU: Listen, I don't think it's too late for provinces, territories, and indeed Canadians to work really hard to make sure we keep those infections low. But of course, in many jurisdictions, we are seeing rising cases and we know that it takes a lot of work when cases rise to exponential levels that we've seen in previous waves.

CO: We spoke with Alex Wong, a doctor in Regina, about the situation there. As you know, a majority of these new cases, very large number of new cases are variants of concern. It's not good old fashioned COVID. It's now the variants. And I asked him why so many says we don't know why. I hear that so many times when I do interviews that we don't know why this is happening, we don't have the data, we don't know, we don't have the tracing. Why don't we know?

PH: Well, I mean, that's a complicated question. I think, first of all, because science takes time and COVID-19 is a new virus. And so research is ongoing every single day. And I have to tell you, I have the privilege of working with incredible researchers at Health Canada and the public health agency and indeed all around the country who have stepped in to try and answer some of these really challenging questions. But that's really the short answer. The short answer is the research continues to evolve. We do know that the variant first found in the UK is more infectious than the sort of standard garden variety COVID-19. And we've seen that it's taken over in many other countries as well.

CO: But if we had better tracing, if we were doing the testing and tracing, could we know more? Could we answer Alex Wong's question about why these cases are so high in Regina?

PH: Again, I think it's not just about testing and sequencing the positive cases, but it's also really understanding the nature of outbreaks. And why do outbreaks occur in provinces and territories? As you know, collect data and share some of that with the government of Canada, but at the provincial level, to really understand what conditions create the propensity for these outbreaks. I think it's really important and we do know more about that. We know that crowded spaces, that congregate living, that workplaces where people are working very closely together, that certain settings where there's not great ventilation and people are having to work very closely together -- those are the kinds of settings that create additional risk for COVID outbreaks. And we all know that now. And I think there's a lot of work that we can do together with provinces and territories and indeed as individuals to reduce our risk.

CO: So the provinces are responsible for this and they're making decisions about what opens, what closes, what happens based on data that they don't really have, right?

PH: Well, I don't want to unilaterally say they don't have that data. Provinces and territories collect a lot of data and they collect a lot of information about where outbreaks are likely to happen. And I think we have national data as well that's really starting to drill into what creates additional risk for outbreaks. But I think the next step then is that we need to act on that data. We need to make sure that we are putting into place better protections for workers. And some provinces are taking steps with, for example, additional screening and monitoring of workplaces, especially workplaces that have seen outbreaks. I look at in the Toronto area at the Amazon outbreak and the work that the Ontario Ministry of Labour is doing to screen workplaces, that's the kind of stuff that we're going to have to do as we move forward and as we work hard to protect people in workplaces and congregate living and in other spaces, where there is an elevated risk of coming into contact with the virus.

CO: Where do you want to see more of that, more of those protocols put in place?

PH: Well the Japanese sort of coined the three Cs phrase. And I think we know now that there are certain workplaces that present, for example, an elevated risk. You know, you look at, for example, intensive farming. You look at manufacturing sites, at meatpacking plants. These are things that around the world, countries have struggled to contain the virus and protect lives in those workplace settings. I think wherever we have people living together in dense situations, we have to be thinking about supporting people to have better living conditions on workplaces. But also I'm thinking of, for example, in farms and temporary foreign worker settings. I know farmers are doing a lot of work to try and ensure that they have good ventilation in those workplaces. But those are the kinds of things that we have to do. And I think finally, we all know that the cost of doing nothing is actually astronomical. I mean, I look at my own community of Thunder Bay and we've had an intersection with long standing homelessness, provincial jail that has been substandard for decades. And of course, as people get infected in vulnerable settings, it spreads to the broader community. So this is a time for all of us to be really thoughtful about making sure everybody has the best living conditions possible.

CO: The one question everybody asks, I said, what do you want me to ask the minister? They said, when am I going to get my vaccine? That's all they want to know. The vaccines are starting to arrive. What's the latest?

PH: You know, it is a good news story for Canadians. And week over week, we'll be getting more and more vaccines, in fact, I think almost 2-million next week. And then additional million week after week after that. And so what I say to people is, when your time comes, please go and get vaccinated. Keep your eye on your local district health unit. They will be publishing schedules all across the country. It's different, but the provinces have been working really efficiently with public health to make sure that people have access to vaccines when it becomes their time. The prime minister has made the commitment that anyone who wants to be vaccinated will have the opportunity to do so by the end of September. And let's hope it's sooner than that, but we are on track to meet that target.

CO: What about the United States? What are you hearing from the Biden administration? We are learning, I guess just now, that there is a plan to send 1.5-million releasable doses of AstraZeneca to Canada. What can you tell us about that?

PH: Well, I have not had confirmation of that yet. I'm really looking forward to the appointment of the health secretary. I know Mr. Becerra is in the last stages of his appointment, and I hope that it continues to go well for him. I'm looking forward to having a health secretary counterpart. Listen, anything that we can do to strengthen the ties between the United States and Canada will be critically important to the health of all of our citizens. We have a long shared border that's highly integrated. It's been challenging to manage, as many Canadians will tell you, but it's been an important part of our COVID-19 response. And I think the more that we can work collaboratively with our North American partners, the better.

CO: Do you see a future where Canadians travelling outside of Canada and those coming into Canada will need some kind of proof of vaccination, some kind of a passport?

PH: Certainly there are countries that are indicating that they will require some proof of vaccination to enter their country. There are airlines that are now starting to talk about the need to provide vaccination certification to fly on their airlines. And that's why it's so important that Canada remain in those conversations with our international partners. We want to make sure that no matter what system arises for international travel, that Canadians have access to the kinds of documentation that would be required to pursue that international travel.

CO: All right. We'll leave it there. Minister Hajdu thank you.

PH: Okay thank you very much. Take care.

CH: Patty Hajdu is Canada's Minister of Health. We reached her in Thunder Bay, Ontario. Her government has since released a statement saying, "After numerous discussions with the Biden administration, Canada is in the process of finalising an exchange agreement to receive 1.5-million doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine." And you can find more on this story on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Drum & Bass Music]

China: Michaels Trials

Guest: Guy Saint-Jacques

CH: Tomorrow, Michael Spavor will be put on trial in China. Soon after that, Michael Kovrig's court ordeal will begin. The two Canadians stand accused of espionage. Ottawa and its allies view the charges as arbitrary, an act of retaliation by China after the arrest of Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou. Beijing's decision to begin proceedings against the two Michaels, after they've spent more than two years in detention, is obviously distressing for the men and their supporters. And a lot of people think the timing is blatantly political. Guy Saint-Jacques is a former Canadian ambassador to China. We reached him in Sainte-Anne-de-Beaupre, Quebec.

CO: Mr. Saint-Jacuqes, what do you expect to see happen to the two Michaels as they go to trial in China?

GUY SAINT-JACQUES: Well, unfortunately, it's very predictable because in China once you are formally charged, we know that people are found guilty more than 99 percent of the cases. Furthermore, because it's a case that involves supposedly state secrets, the lawyers of Mr. Kovrig and Spavor won't be able to look at the evidence and Canadian consular officials will not be allowed to attend the hearing, again, because it's supposed to be dealing with state secret. And based on the way that things when Kevin Garratt went through a similar process back in April 2016, when his trial took place, the Chinese procurers will read a summary of the charges. They will have a thick file of proof, of evidence. They will just hand this over to the judge, and the judge won't bother to look at it. And I suspect that it will be a very quick process. In the case of Kevin, it started in the morning. There was a break for lunch and it was over by 3:30 in the afternoon. And then it will just be a matter of waiting for the sentence to be rendered. And I expect, unfortunately, that it could be a very harsh sentence.

CO: You're speaking of previous case of a Canadian in these circumstances, and that is his fate. Is there any possibility that things might not turn out as you're describing? Is it possible that there might be some face saving going on here that the Chinese want to get this prosecution done and then possibly arrange for some kind of -- after they've convicted them say, we'll be good guys here and we'll let these two men go? Is that possible?

GUY SAINT-JACQUES: I think it's unlikely. They will want to extract something. For example, the timing of the announcement of the trial is not accidental. They knew full well that there was this important first face to face meeting between American and Chinese officials that was going to take place on Thursday in Alaska. They heard a press conference of President Biden with Prime Minister Trudeau. So they want to send a clear message to Americans, if you want to help the Canadians to get out, you know what you have to do and that's find a way to return Ms. Meng. So they are playing hardball, but I'm sure that they will want to extract something further from us and possibly from the Americans. So there could still be a lot of negotiations ahead.

CO: Yeah. And the United States has pledged to help secure the release of the recovery of Mr. Kovrig and Mr. Spavor So is it possible that some kind of a deal, that if this is timed in order to send a signal that, yeah, we're open for some kind of negotiation here, do you think that the Biden administration might provide that?

GUY SAINT-JACQUES: I would hope so. And I think that maybe the US Department of Justice back in December thought that they were close to a deal. There was this leak that the negotiations were taking place with the legal team of Ms. Meng. And it's too bad that this fell apart. But I'm pretty sure that there are discussions taking place in Washington to look at the whole situation and see what can be done. And maybe a solution could be that those negotiations are relaunched and that the United States make further compromises. And that language can be found so that both sides can declare victory. Another possibility would be for the US Department of Justice to keep the charges against Ms. Meng, but to withdraw the extradition request. That means that Canada then would free her and she could go back. There are some possibilities there. And it's about, of course, that this is happening in the middle of this big rivalry between the US and China.

CO: Are all the cards then in the hands of the Biden administration as far as being able to get the release of the Micheals? We have seen Prime Minister Trudeau use stronger language over the these 800 days. And most recently he called them trumped up charges. He seemed more angry last time he spoke. Was there anything more that the Canadian government can do?

GUY SAINT-JACQUES: Unfortunately, I don't see anything that can be done at this stage and we don't have much leverage on China.

CO: Just finally, I'm just wondering how galling you might find it that the lawyers for Meng Wanzhou in court this week have described that she has flagrant disregard for her rights, that the system has failed her miserably. How do you feel when you read those kinds of words, talked about, around, Meng Wanzhou compared to the Michaels?

GUY SAINT-JACQUES: Well, I find those to be, frankly, over the top. And when you compare the two legal processes -- in our case, it's fully transparent. In fact, you could argue that we went overboard by allowing her husband and her children to join her last fall. And for our two Canadians, they won't even have access to the evidence. It's all preordained. And so all this to say that I don't think that the language used by Ms. Meng's lawyers was appropriate.

CO: We'll leave it there. Mr. Saint-Jacques I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

GUY SAINT-JACQUES: Thank you very much for the invitation.

CO: All right. Take care.

GUY SAINT-JACQUES: You too. Goodbye.

CH: Guy Saint-Jacques is a former Canadian ambassador to China. He was in Sainte-Anne-de-Beaupre, Quebec.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Met Opera Pay

Guest: Evan Epifanio

CH: New York's Metropolitan Opera House is known for its phenomenal orchestra. But almost exactly a year ago now, that orchestra fell silent and dispersed. It's been a difficult time for the musicians, not just for the obvious reason of the pandemic, but because since last April, none of them has been paid and their union is locked in a bitter battle with the MET over wages. Evan Epifanio is the orchestra's principal bassoonist. We reached him in Elkhorn, Wisconsin.

CO: Evan, we have reached you in the Midwest. You are a long way away from Manhattan. What's brought you there?

EVAN EPIFANIO: Well, I'm here at my parents house because I'm unemployed. I am furloughed from my place of employment at the Metropolitan Opera in New York City.

CO: And your husband is as well, right?

EE: Yes, he is with me here. And we have been all over. We've been here for a few months, at his parents home north of Detroit, Michigan, we were in Manhattan for a little while. And luckily, my parents have a a condo because they are retired in Naples, Florida. And so that's where we were at the beginning of the pandemic. When the house closed for two weeks, we thought, okay yay, let's make a vacation out of it. But then it's turned into the long haul.

CO: I'm sure this is not how you would imagine yourselves to be at this point in your careers, right?

EE: Absolutely not. I'm 32. I've reached the pinnacle of my career, of my field, the top. And it's something that I've spent my entire musical life working towards. And I was fortunate enough to get it. And now I'm just sitting at home practising my bassoon and not doing what I love, and that is performing.

CO: When you talk about being at the pinnacle, you are principal bassoonist in the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra. When did you realise how big a financial hit this pandemic is going to be for you?

EE: Well, we've been without pay since April 1st in 2020. And immediately it became apparent because of how expensive New York is as a place to live.

CO: What has the MET actually offered you and the other musicians?

EE: We have had our health insurance during the entire closure, which we are very grateful towards. We just reached an agreement to offer us what they're calling a bridge pay, which is a significantly reduced amount from our normal salaries that will be paid to us weekly with the conditions that we enter in good faith, bargaining with the management.

CO: What does that mean?

EE: That's a really good question. We don't know what the definition of good faith bargaining is. I'm not on the orchestra committee. But we have biweekly meetings so they can keep us posted with what's going on. And I know that we the orchestra has put forth offers previously this year to come to terms with some sort of relief for the management, but give us some sort of income to survive. But we're now meeting at the table to see what we can come up with.

CO: Okay. But they want you to agree to a permanent pay reduction.

EE: Yes, the initial offer is a 30 percent pay reduction, wage reduction, for what they said for the box office to get back to regular sales and for more consistent donations to be coming in. But then only reinstate just 15 percent back. So we would end up with a 15 percent cut in at the end. And that's just wage. That's not counting the laundry list of workplace rules that they're demanding to be adjusted.

CO: So you have been without pay since April -- almost a year now. And the MET is using that the pandemic as leverage to renegotiate your pay?

EE: It would really appear to be so, right. It's almost like the pandemic couldn't have come at a more perfect time for the management because it was no secret that prior to the pandemic, the MET was in a financially precarious position. Now, yes, we are desperate without pay for a year...

CO: But they have you over the barrel, don't they?

EE: They do in a way. But I'm trying to remain as optimistic as I can. And we are the performers. We are the product. And so the MET would be nothing without us. So we hold those cards.

CO: How are your colleagues doing? Some of them have been telling The New York Times the stories of -- a cellist had to sell a 19th century bow that was so important to him and just in order to make ends meet.

EE: Yes, people have mortgages. They have mouths to feed. They have rent to pay that they can't get out of. And so people are desperate for the money. And our backs are against the wall. And it would be perfect because of that desperation for us to falter and to agree to any sort of income. It's just not a good situation for any of us right now.

CO: Do you see the pieces coming back together afterwards? Do you think that the good faith bargaining and everything else will eventually -- do you see you're back in your chair, back as the principal bassoonist in the orchestra, performing for all those audiences? Is that image in your head?

EE: It has to be. I desperately want to be back there.

CO: Well, that's understandable Evan. I appreciate speaking with you. And I do hope you're back in that chair soon.

EE: Thank you very much. Thank you for reaching out.

CH: Evan Epifanio is the principal bassoonist with the Metropolitan Opera House Orchestra. We reached him in Elkhorn, Wisconsin.

[Music: Happy Music]

Double Bongcloud

CH: On Monday, reigning chess world champion Magnus Carlsen faced off remotely against his longtime rival, American Hikaru Nakamura. The question was what Carlsen's opening would be. The standard Ruy Lopez, the bolder Sokolsky opening, the aggressive Albin countergambit. None of the above. Instead, he made a move of the highest quality, as in it seemed like he was super stoned.

PETER LEKO: [SOUNDCLIP: Usually we would be going crazy for this pairing, but knowing that all this craziness is happening with the qualification -- it's kind of...what?! And Magnus goes King...don't do this.

TANIA SACHDEV: He's going last. King at E7.

PETER LEKO: King to draw -- draw or what?

TANIA SACHDEV: He can't stop.]

CH: Commentator Peter Leko is baffled. His fellow commentator, Tania Sachdev can't even handle it. Both players are laughing because Mr. Carlsen has just used the single stupidest opening in chess.

PETER LEKO: [SOUNDCLIP: Is this the bongcloud? It was something like a bongcloud business. Ke7. Okay, guys, no no, just don't do this.]

CH: Mr. Leko is right. Magnus Carlsen opened with the bongcloud. It involves moving the pawn in front of your king two spaces and then moving your king to where your pawn was. It blocks other pieces. It wastes everyone's time and it exposes the king. It's an opening so misguided that only someone who just done a massive bong rip would do it, which is why it's known officially as the bongcloud. Even more remarkably, Hikaru Nakamura responded with his own bongcloud opening. It was the first ever double bongcloud played in a major chess tournament. In the chess world, that is hilarious. And it threw everyone off. So next time you play, consider the bongcloud opening. And just before you take your first move, take a deep breath and hold it.

[Music: Drum Music]

Part 2: 10 years into the Syrian war, this torture victim fights to bring the regime to justice

Syria 10 Years: Justice

Guest: Omar Alshogre

CH: All this week, we've been focussing on Syria and reflecting on the legacy of a decade of war. What we've heard again and again is how the Syrian regime systematically targeted its own citizens, levelled hospitals, and crushed dissent. So what are the consequences for such atrocities? The answer is not simple. The International Criminal Court comes to mind, but attempts to bring war crimes charges there through the UN Security Council have failed repeatedly. Some Syrians have their eyes on other avenues. Syrians like Omar Alshogre. 10 years ago, Mr. Alshogre was a teenager attending his very first demonstration in Syria. He would later end up behind bars, enduring horrific torture at the hands of the regime. And now he's trying to channel that horror into accountability and justice. We reached Omar Alshogre in Washington, D.C. and a warning. Parts of this interview contain graphic descriptions.

CO: Omar, you have been described in many different ways in all the articles about you. You're a university student, you're a refugee from Syria, a victim of torture, a public speaker, an activist. But how would you describe yourself?

OMAR ALSHOGRE: I feel like I'm two different personalities, two different people. Omar, who is enjoying his life a lot, who is a Georgetown student meeting nice friends, new people all the time, being optimistic all the time. And then the Syrian Omar, who is focussing on Syria, who is going through the pain the Syrian people are going through, talking to their parents of those who are still in detention centres. I feel I am different based on the language I speak.

CO: Let's talk about Omar the Syrian, to begin with. Let's go back to the beginning with obviously it's the 10th anniversary, March 18th, 2011 -- you were 15 years old. What were you doing that day?

OA: I received a phone call from my favourite person on this planet, Bashir, my cousin, who was five years older than me. And he said, Omar, the birds are gathering, you've got to come down to the city. I was in my village of Baniyas, which is 10 minutes away from the city. And I understood his coded words -- he meant that there is people demonstrating. So I went to my father immediately said, "We've got to go. There are people demonstrating." Whispering to him, saying, "We've got to go." And my father said, "Stay home, stay safe." And I was like, "I can't. You taught me to be brave. You taught me how to care to do." And it's like try to convince my father, and I made him. And he drove me to the demonstration. And before he dropped me off, he said to me, hide your face, a million people may die.

CO: When your dad warned you about that, what did that warning mean to you?

OA: I did not understand what a million is. I cannot relate to that. Again, I never seen a dead body. It's like few demonstrations, the regime fall, we free people. That's how we thought about it.

CO: What was the spirit? What was it like on the street? Describe the spirit that day.

OA: I love it. I love it. As soon as I come to demonstration, I was handed a rose flower to have in my hands. I was like, Wow, that's a beautiful flower. I hear people like screaming, singing songs of freedom and liberty. And I jump. And when you jump, you know, sing freedom because you know how right this word is, you can touch the sky. And I touched the sky. Did I really understand what democracy meant or freedom meant? No.

CO: The response from Bashar al Assad and his regime was an iron fist, wasn't it? When did you realise that this was a very very dangerous thing to be part of?

OA: I went to the demonstration and I heard people saying the police may kill people. I seen that on the news in Egypt, in Tunisia, I heard something about Syria happening. But my father was a former officer and he always protected me, even if he was sometimes harsh, you know. So police may be tough guys, but they won't kill, right? So I'm in the demonstration seeing the army getting closer. They have guns in their hands. We heard an officer with a microphone saying, you know, "Loud. Aim. Shoot." And I just see people running away. And my friend, Alaa, who was my age, from my school, (was) dying next to me. And I never seen anybody dying before -- not long time after I was taken to prison. But before that, they tied my hands, they put me on the ground. Thousands of soldiers surrounded the people. 500 men and children being arrested. And they put us on the ground, jumped on our bodies (and) our head, forcing us to scream, saying, "Syria, God, and Bashar." And I was forced to say that. When I was a kid in school, we said that every day and I had no problem saying that because I didn't understand, I didn't care. But this time when they were jumping on my body, forcing me to say them, I knew what's going on in Syria.

CO: You were arrested multiple times and you were transferred to one of the most notorious prisons in the world. It was called Branch 215. How would you describe that place?

OA: I don't like describing places, I like to describe people and events. I was forced by the guard to give false confession, otherwise they will kill my cousin in front of me.

CO: Sorry, this is your cousin Bashir. Your great friend. Your great hero.

OA: Yes. Yes. So. My cousins, Bashir, Rashed, and Noor and I were detained together and they were tortured. But in addition to that, Bashir who the guard knew I loved the most and he loved me the most -- they wanted to break this relationship we had, this love, they were scared -- each other we had. So they forced Bashir to torture me for days and days. And they forced him to hit me as hard as he could. I remember Bashir crying while he's torturing me, saying Omar, "I don't torture you, they will kill you. If I don't torture you, they will kill me. If I don't do it, we're both going to die. So maybe I'm saving your life by doing that. I'm saving my life by doing that." And when I'm sitting in this chair and they forcing me to give false confession, "What do you want to hear? I tell you, I give you whatever confession you want to hear! I killed the officers. I have helicopters, I have whatever guns, machines, whatever you want. I'm a spy for the US, for Canada, for Israel, for al-Qaida, whatever. Just stop torturing him."

CO: What happened to Bashir?

OA: Bashir survived for more than a year,. And I remember the last day we had, he didn't want to be alive anymore because he felt the shame of his siblings who died with us in prison. He could not just face his mother with that. He could not just say, my siblings died and I could not do anything for them. So he said, I don't want to live anymore and I don't want to eat. I don't want to drink. And I cannot let Bashir die because if Bashir dies, I will die myself. I can't be alone. The last day I was carrying him, taking him to the bathroom and Bashir is sitting there and he started to whisper saying, "Omar, I am dying." And I was carrying him still walking, looked at Bashir and he's sleeping and I felt a little bit of anger. It's like his body is falling from my hands, so I was like "We fall on the ground. And if you fall on the ground, that guard will torture you." So while they are hitting me, I'm hitting Bashir on his face. Saying, "Bashir, wake up!" And he did not move it. He was dead.

CO: Omar. I'm so sorry.

OA: I mean, you know, I never loved anybody like Bashir. He was the first person to eat hamburger with, the first person to buy a motorcycle with. And losing him, I sometimes question myself if I, after two years in prison, was trying to save him for him or trying to save him from me. And I lost my hope. I lost my hope when Bashir died, I felt like I had nothing. And another cousin was detained. And he told me that my family was killed in a massacre in my village. So if everybody died outside and my school was bombed, and no more childhood friends I have, and Bashir died in prison and his siblings died with me in prison -- what else do I have to live for?

CO: You survived and you got out and you made your way to Sweden, is that right?

OA: I made it to Sweden. And I am still alive and making the best of my life. I'm trying to not let the world recognise Bashir as a number. I'm trying to tell the world who Bashir was. One important story was he was one of those who had been the most tortured in Branch 215. When you look at him, he was always smiling. I looked at him saying, why are you smiling? And he says, "Omar, look at everybody around you. Nobody can see hope anywhere except what I offer them. This smile on my face. Let me give them that before I die. I will die Omar." And he died, but he spread a lot of hope for the people

CO: You're listening to As It Happens. I'm speaking with Omar Alshogre. He's 25 years old, a man from Syria who has experienced more in his short lifetime than most of us will ever and hope not to. And we're speaking today about seeking justice for the atrocities committed in Syria. And Omar, it sounds that what Bashir gave you, his final gift was the gift of hope.

OA: It is. He gave me strength that hope was the tool I could use to survive.

CO: And the hope you have now is that you're going to see justice for these people, for those friends, for all of those who have suffered at the hands of the regime of Bashar al-Assad. And how are you going to do that?

OA: Firstly, there is no war that has been documented as well as the Syrian war. Syrians being really brave. And I'm really proud of being Syrian. I'm proud of all those people I met in my way in the revolution and in prison and here in the West. And despite our pain, we still tell our stories and commend that. And we used this evidence and we start legal prosecutions. Recently, we managed to prosecute a guy who'd been responsible for torture, who'd been captured in Germany, and he'd been sentenced by the court. We have other people and we have lawsuits against 25 high level officers have been responsible for war crimes in Syria in Sweden. And we have a case in France, in Spain and in Norway, in addition to the German one we work on one in the US and one in the UK. And hopefully we can continue to do something like that in Canada, because I believe wherever you have Syrians, you have a case to build against the Syrian regime.

CO: It's believed that there's more evidence of war crimes by the Syrian regime than there was against the Nazis. And one of the key sources of that evidence is a regime photographer, a person who was supposed to take pictures inside those prisons. He has a code name of Caesar. He smuggled out a mountain of evidence. You know this man, don't you?

OA: I know him. Before Caesar would take those photos of those dead bodies, those dead bodies will be numbered by me -- the number you can see in Caesar's photos. I met Caesar in Washington, D.C., we both sat and testified in front of the Senate. And it was powerful to be able for the first time to tell the complete story, of proving to the world that's all this happening in Syria is, there is evidence for and we need to react to that. And the ICC is blocked because the Russians and the Chinese have their veto on that. But we always can find a way around that. And that way this time was the national courts we could use through the universal jurisdiction.

CO: I want people to know what you're talking about when you say the ICC, the International Criminal Court is limited. And one of the things you're saying, limit, is that the Security Council of the United Nations has allies of Bashar al-Assad on its central committee. And so when you say pursuing through to national governments, through different countries, one of them is Germany, right, with this evidence be able to see one person actually prosecuted?

OA: Yes. And we did that. And this is very symbolic, you know, prosecuting one person that delivers a message to the Syrian regime, telling them that we are following what you doing. So that's very hopeful for the Syrian people after years of suffer, they see moments of justice.

CO: What about Bashar al-Assad himself?

OA: During my time in prison, I saw so many nightmares but I saw so many dreams. I saw myself standing in the court in front of al-Assad and I was asking him questions. I still see that. It's not a dream. It is something that's going to be a reality. Evidence can't be hidden anymore. There is Syrians all over the place, they are educating themselves, they're getting knowledge. They know what democracy is. They know how to use evidence. Those are power that's going to take Assad from his seat and bring him to court.

CO: Do you think that others inside Syria who have been part of this death machine, do you see them actually taking part in this, actually starting to help this process in any way, even from a self-interested point of view and seeing that this regime is prosecuted?

OA: Already in the German court, we could see both Eyad Al-Gharib and Anwar Raslan, the one being prosecuted and the other going to be prosecuted soon. Both gave testimony against the regime. That's good. By arresting those lower level officers, we having more concrete evidence against those who are in a higher position, which is more important because in the Syrian conflict, you have a lot of people involved in war crimes. That means it will be symbolic justice, ending up with 500,000-1-million war criminals in Syria. It's not going to be a scenario much different from Rwanda because you cannot bring all those people to court. So we are going to find a solution. It is difficult. It's really difficult conversation about justice because who can bring me Bashir back? That's justice for me. Nobody, right. Who can bring me my father? I lost my father when I was 17 years old, the regime killed him. My younger brother too. You can't give me justice for that. Taking somebody to prison is justice, it is not. It's symbolic.

CO: Omar, what responsibility does Canada have to play? Because we have war crimes legislation in this country that allows for these kinds of prosecutions like you're seeing in Germany. We have more than 80,000 Syrians who came to live here. What are the possibilities for Canada?

OA: 80,000 people are 80,000 testimonies against war crimes that happened in Syria. 80,000 people, they have so many relatives in detention centres in Syria. And amongst 80,000 people, there is definitely somebody who's been involved in war crimes, because when you do something, you sometimes regret that. Anwar Raslan and Eyad Al-Gharib who we're prosecuting in Germany, they came to Germany as refugees.

CO: But the biggest player in all of this, in the world, is the United States. They have a capacity, they have laws, they have ways, they have money. Why do you think the United States has done so little to try and bring justice to the people of Syria?

OA: Firstly, the Trump administration was challenging. It was difficult to deal with that administration, trying to get things to be changed in the Syrian case, in addition to the Security Council being blocked always by Russia and China. I think now with a new administration, my responsibility is to be hopeful. My team at the Syrian Task Force and I, we had a call with Antony Blinken. And what he said was what Obama's administration did and did not do is a shame -- I will take with me to my grave.

CO: But it's such a positive sign that you have met with Antony Blinken, the Secretary of State for the Biden administration. But it must be very frustrating for you and for Caesar to have risked so much to bring these crimes to light. And I mean, you're pointing to examples of progress, but so little accountability, so few consequences.

OA: It's easy to feel hopeless because you learnt from all that being spread about the Syrian regime, that it's a complicated conflict if you get involved in and you don't know the consequences of that. That is the main problem. The conflict in Syria is not complicated. It was people demonstrating, soldiers were forced to kill those demonstrators or they will be killed by the intelligence services behind them. And the regime ordered that. The Syrian president ordered that. So it's a regime killing civilians, soldiers who managed to escape the free army, the free army fighting the Assad army, they trying to bring freedom to the Syrian people. And that said, we can't think about it as a complicated war all the time because we distance people, we limit people from helping us.

CO: I know you're now living in Washington, D.C. and you have been accepted to study at Georgetown University. I saw a beautiful video of your reaction. You were standing on the side of a road. When you got this news a friend was filming you and it's quite delightful. What did it mean for you to get this news?

OA: As a kid, my father wanted me to study in the best school. He wanted me to educate myself to be safe for the future. And I applied to Georgetown for multiple reasons and I knew how great their school was. I was in Norway. I am a public speaker, so I travel around the world and travelling from city to another in Norway -- and I received an email saying, I've been admitted to Georgetown. I said, just stop the car! You know, stop the car. I've got to enjoy that. I've got to enjoy achieving my father's hope in me. So I jumped out of the car. [Cheering in excitement] I made it!

CO: There's also a very funny story of when you asked your mother not to tell others, and what happened?

OA: In many things you tell your mother, "Don't tell anybody what I'm going to tell you now." I tell her and a few minutes later, the world knows about everything. My mother can't hide anything that she can be proud of.

CO: But it seems that everybody is so happy for you when things go right. Is it because they know what you've been through?

OA: People know what I went through and people know I deserve to be happy. People have been supporting me all the time. Who do you think is paying my tuition? It's not the school, you know. It's people who said, "Omar we want to invest in you." [Inaudible] offering me an apartment in D.C. it's a family, American family who said, Omar want to support you.

CO: Do you think that after all you've been through, the ability to smile and laugh and to enjoy life, is that because of the final gift that your friend and your cousin Bashir gave you?

OA: My smile is very much inspired by Bashir. He didn't want me to be a life to suffer. I used this empowerment -- he gave me the strength to enjoy my life. And one of the tools I used to enjoy my life is helping other people.

CO: All the destruction of your country, half your country has been destroyed. A third of the population had to leave. Many others living in camps, so many tortured to death. And it all flows from that day, 10 years ago today, when you and others went into the streets to very simply ask for freedom. Do you think that that will happen? Do you think that people in Syria will one day see freedom?

OA: Destroyed buildings can be rebuilt. And those who died will be remembered. And the regime will fall. There is no way I will give up. This challenge -- what we went through -- built our resilience. This resilience is going to be the tool we're going to use to rebuild Syria.

CO: Omar, I admire your courage. I admire your tenacity. And I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

OA: Carol, thank you very much.

CO: Take care.

OA: Take care.

CH: Omar Alshogre is a Syrian refugee who's working to raise awareness about the abuses he and his fellow detainees suffered in Syrian prison. We reached him in Washington, D.C. You can find more information on his quest for justice on our website: cbc.ca/aih. And tomorrow will air the final segment of our Syria special, an encore presentation of Carol's conversation with Waad Al-Kateab, the Syrian filmmaker behind the award winning documentary "For Sama."

[Music: Guitar Music]

Part 3: Tennessee town to mark iconic bridge's violent history with memorial to lynching victims

Conservative Convention

Guest: Tim Uppal

CH: This weekend's Conservative convention should be nothing short of a launch pad for Erin O'Toole. With a possible election this year, the Conservative leader is the fresh new face while his veteran Liberal rival is governing with widespread unemployment and a deficit unlike anything we've ever seen. But in the countdown to today's opening festivities, most of the stories haven't been about an imminent takeoff of Mr. O'Toole's electoral fortunes. Instead, they focussed on political infighting, fuelled by disappointing poll numbers, and a struggle over social values and the ejection of the socially conservative MP Derek Sloan. Tim Uppal is the Conservative MP for Edmonton Mill Woods. We reached him in Ottawa.

CO: Mr. Uppal is this convention about getting ready for an election or is it about avoiding self-inflicted wounds?

TIM UPPAL: This convention is about discussing ideas, about discussing the future of our party, and how many Canadians are looking to see us and say, "What would you do if you were in government?" And this is an opportunity for our leader, Erin O'Toole, to be able to tell Canadians that

CO: Isn't it a bit late? I mean, this is one of the big issues that keeps coming up over and over again. We don't know what your party is about. We don't know what you're selling. And now you're possibly months away from an election and we still don't know.

TU: Well, I think you're right in the sense that Justin Trudeau is trying to have an election and that election may come soon. But we would prefer if he brought a budget in before that. You know what? We've been out talking to Canadians all the time. And the leader does regular press conferences and talking to Canadians. But this is a much bigger platform. This is thousands of people who have chose to be a part of this convention, thousands of conservatives. And we're going to have a great discussion, but also a platform to talk to Canadians at large.

CO: The ads you've been running -- one of the principle one is a mirror and saying, look into this mirror, maybe you'll see a conservative there, maybe you are a conservative. So you're trying to lure people to the idea that maybe this party that they maybe have nothing to do with or don't think they are part of, that maybe they are. But when they look in the mirror, what are they supposed to see?

TU: I think for a long time, other people have defined what is a conservative. And so what we're doing is just to ask Canadians and say, what are the issues that are important to you? And so if it is about lower taxes, if it is about support for small businesses and support for Canadians -- and look at what a commonsense plan and our plan to get past this pandemic and open up the economy again, that's the Conservative Party. And so I think many people looked at it. That's what they would see. If many people took the time to listen to Erin O'Toole, and I encourage people to do so during this convention, they will see and say, you know what? I want to be part of that Conservative Party, those are my values, those are the ideas that I connect with.

CO: If you go out west, you get one answer to the question, what is a conservative. You get a different answer in Ontario. Again, a different answer in rural communities, a different one. Atlantic Canada. So how do you yoke all that together?

TU: So to me, that's very exciting what you're saying, that we have all of these conservatives from across the country that have a little bit different viewpoint on what's important to them. But amongst all of those different viewpoints, you have a lot that connects us, that we all agree on, and those are the things that I think we can move forward with. So this is a party that, yes, we have varying views and that's great -- that's actually one of the reasons why I joined the Conservative Party. But at the end of the day, when it comes down to those most important issues, those are the ones that we agree on. And a lot of it for Canadians these days, is the economy, is getting past a pandemic. We can agree that Justin Trudeau has not been handling it well, he has mismanaged much of it, and doesn't have a plan to go into the future. Conservatives do.

CO: What's your plan for climate change?

TU: We think that there's a very good opportunity to work with our industry to ensure that we have a strong environmental plan, that is not only supporting improving the environment as we move forward, but also that we also work with industry to ensure that we secure jobs as well. You can do that in a balanced way. It does not have to be one or the other. And unfortunately, the Liberals have looked at certain sectors across the country and said, well, this one we will pick and you'll do well -- and this one you're not going to -- and really use the environment as an excuse. But we will work to support all sectors across the country economically and support workers in every part of the country.

CO: To be honest, I have no idea what you just said. I don't know what you have told us is your policy on climate change, what you're selling there.

TU: What I'm selling is a commonsense plan to support the environment, but also jobs as well. We can do both. That's exactly what our proposals will be, that it will be to support both a balance of supporting the environment and the other. You don't have to have an environment policy that shuts down industry, kills jobs, to say well, we're doing that to support the environment. It doesn't have to be that way.

CO: Will you embrace a carbon tax?

TU: No. A carbon tax itself is not what would really help the environment, especially down the road that hurts consumers. That will only raise prices, that will hurt jobs. A carbon tax is not the solution.

CO: You know, a number of people have raised this idea that maybe what Conservatives need to do, the party needs to do, is to own climate change policy, to take it away from the left, to actually represent a vigorous and very bold climate change policy program, the same way that Mr. Mulroney did with the Montreal Protocol and with the environment in the 80s and 90s. That's open to you. Why don't you take that?

TU: What we're going to do is to have a plan -- to have a strong plan for not only on the environment but also on building jobs, but also getting, you know, making sure Canadians are safe from the pandemic and moving forward. So we will have a plan that crosses a number of different issues, not just that. And that, of course, a strong environmental plan will be part of our platform.

CO: Forgive me if I say that sounds a bit vague.

TU: No, I mean, I'm not going to have all the platform details for you here today. But as we move forward and you will see more details on our environmental plan. And like I said, the environmental plan will be, you know, support the environment as we move forward, but also different industries as well. If you take the time to look at what industries have done, if we just look at oil and gas sector, they have improved their footprint, reduce their footprint enormously. They have great technology. And if we can even work with other countries to bring up their standards to the standards that we have in our industry, that would actually help the environment globally. So there's many good ideas that we can use that we just need to work on and trust our industry to work with our industry.

CO: So your climate change policy for the Conservatives would have a strong fossil fuel component to it?

TU: We would have a strong supporting our industry part of it. And we'll have an environmental policy that -- well, yeah, I mean, you know, that would be a strong environmental policy.

CO: But it would have a strong fossil fuel component to it?

TU: I'm not going to get into details on that right now, but like I said, it'll be a balanced approach.

CO: Yeah, I guess it's not a detail given that oil and gas is one of the main contributors to CO2 emissions. And that would be a climate change issue number one, right?

TU: It will definitely be something that we would work with the industry. And I think the industry has lots to offer. There's no reason that -- you don't actually have to have an environmental policy that completely knocks down one industry and hurts the people that work there. You can work with them, secure jobs, and support the industry and still support the environment. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

CO: Mr. Uppal I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

TU: Very good. Thank you.

CH: Tim Uppal is the Conservative MP for Edmonton Mill Woods. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Bill C 21 Polytechnique Families

Guest: Nathalie Provost

CH: Prime Minister Trudeau has referred to it as the best path forward to keep Canadians safe. But supporters of the victims of the massacre at Ecole Polytechnique say it's nothing short of a betrayal. Last month, the Trudeau government introduced Bill C21. Amongst other things, it creates a program to buy back banned assault-style weapons and give cities the power to restrict handguns. Nathalie Provost is a survivor of the 1989 Polytechnique shooting and a member of the anti-gun group Poly Remembers. The group says the bill is a dismal failure. And in a letter to the prime minister, it says that if the bill passes, as is, he will no longer be welcome at events commemorating the Montreal massacre. We reached Ms. Provost in the Gaspe, Quebec.

CO: Nathalie, why did you and the others feel compelled to send this letter to the prime minister?

NATHALIE PROVOST: We have the feeling it's our last chance to do something strong for gun control in Canada. And we're really really worried about this bill. So we wrote that letter to Mr. Trudeau

CO: In some respects, a personal letter, because you're saying that he betrayed you and the victims of the Polytechnique and other massacres. And did you do this with something of a heavy heart, because Mr. Trudeau has been at many of your commemorations, he has always said that he is is on your side, that he is trying to change things -- was it difficult to write this?

NP: No. No strangely, it was not a difficult letter to write because it was clear in my mind and in the minds of other what we wanted to say. You know, Mr. Trudeau spoke to us directly, personally, and not just to me, to members of the families of the victims of Polytechnique. In French I would say pleurer du coeur -- it's very very important to us that we feel betrayed, that we feel that he let us down.

CO: Let you down. Pleurer du coeur is like a cry from the heart.

NP: Yeah, yeah, that's it. You know, when he tabled the bill in February, he once again mentioned where he was in December 1989. And he said that he recalled those even in his own life -- he said that he wants a safer Canada for his own child. And we know that if this bill is adopted, it will be a loss and we won't have the energy in 5, 6, 10, 15 years to fight again and again and again. We are fighting for 30 years and we want from those who are elected. And when they want to cry with us, they have to move with us also.

CO: What is the principal failure of Bill C21, in your view?

NP: The first and main one, in my opinion, is that the buyback is voluntary instead of being mandatory. We need to bring those weapons inoperable, not unusable, inoperable. In a month, in two months, in a year, if somebody who legally owns those guns don't give them back to the government, they would be able to do what happened in Polytechnique, in Dawson, in the Quebec mosque. So for us, it's a total failure.

CO: So the weapon Marc Lepine used, you can't buy it anymore, you can't bring it in. But these weapons still exist here. And the plan is in this legislation is that -- we'll just say what the minister, Bill Blair, said, that these weapons can no longer be taken out, they can't be legally discharged, you can't fire them, you can't use them for hunting, you have to keep them locked up, you can't transport them, you can't even bequeath them, you can't give them in your will. So the idea we got from him was that if these guns are useless to people, then they will voluntarily sell them back to the government. That that's the plan. And you don't think that's going to work?

NP: But the Conservative Party already told gun owners, keep them, keep quiet. And in five and ten years, in two years -- and we don't know when the Conservative government will win elections against the Liberal Party, they're already planning to reverse the law. And we know that they can do it. They did it with the long gun registry.

CO: The idea from Mr. Blair, my sense is, what he was describing as is that it's better to get these guns out of people's hands with the carrot instead of a stick, that if they apprehend these weapons, that it will be, I guess, politically bad, but also not the right way, the best way is to get people to voluntarily give them. Do you think that there is any advantage if people were to give them up?

CO: You know, after 30 years, I don't think that gun owners will want to give them up. You know, when the Liberal government was elected, we thought they will hold their promise and they were planning to be as strong as the New Zealand government was, and it's a mandatory buyback program that they have there and it's working. It's working.

CO: Apparently, though, in New Zealand, though, they found that not that many of those weapons were actually seised or taken out of circulation in New Zealand.

NP: I know it's not 100 percent, but what is not in circulation is not dangerous anymore.

CO: Nathalie, you said at the beginning that you fear that if this goes on much longer, people don't have the energy, that you have been fighting this since 1989. Do you feel you have enough energy to change this bill?

NP: We're trying now. But it's already table that way and we haven't been consulted before it was tabled. So that's the only way we have now is to be very very loud, very public, and saying that we feel betrayed. We were not consulted by Bill Blair a month or two -- just a few days before we were informed, that's all. We would have been able to say that behind closed door, but we were not asked if we were satisfied with it. So the only way we have right now is to say very loudly that we feel betrayed by that bill.

CO: Nathalie, we'll leave it there. And your word is out. And we appreciate hearing from you. Thank you.

NP: Thank you.

CH: Nathalie Provost is a survivor of the 1989 Polytechnique shooting in Montreal, and a member of the gun control group, Poly Remembers. She's in the Gaspe, Quebec.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Chattanooga, TN Lynching History

Guest: Eric Atkins

CH: Life in Chattanooga, Tennessee, can seem like a tale of two cities -- on one hand, it's blessed with beautiful scenery and infrastructure, and on the other, there are the memories and the pain that black residents feel about their city's past. A perfect symbol of that contrast is the Walnut Street Bridge. Some look at it and see a beautiful example of a classic 19th century wrought iron truss bridge. But Black Chattanoogans see Ed Johnson, a Black man who was lynched on the bridge in 1956. Eric Atkins is the vice chair of the Ed Johnson Project. For years now, he's been calling on the city to remind people of the racist violence of its past while still valuing its present. And now the city has vowed to install a monument in honour of Mr. Johnson. We reached Eric Atkins in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

CO: Eric, what does it mean for you to see that Ed Johnson will be memorialised in this way?

ERIC ATKINS: Well, like I tell most people, it was a story that was always known in the Black community. It wasn't spoken about so much in the White community. The Black community never forgets a lynching because of just the trauma that it leaves behind -- a residual effect. And so to have this particular case memorialised in this fashion, I think Abraham Lincoln's words are better than my, it is fit and proper to do this.

CO: The story of Ed Johnson, I want to know a bit about that. He was lynched, murdered, on the way on the Walnut Street Bridge, a very storeyed place in Chattanooga. How did he come to be murdered there? What's the story?

EA: Well, a young woman was walking in the St. Elmo district of the city one night and she was assaulted. And from the reports that you get from some of the newspaper reports, Ed Johnson was just one of the unlucky few that were sort of lined up in an enquiry. And out of that, you know, he was the one that they charged with the rape of a Nevada Taylor.

CO: And she was a White woman?

EA: Yes, she was a White woman. He was charged with assault of her. And that was very typical in the south, you know, you have Black -- so there were certain things that as an African-American that you could do and could not do. Remember, Emmett Till was killed just for, you know, it was rumoured that he had whistled at a White woman. And that's basically what happened.

CO: The trial -- the documents of it show that it was just a complete miscarriage of justice. But Ed Johnson was sentenced to death. How did the case end up before the US Supreme Court?

EA: Well, it was a last minute appeal by his attorneys [Noah Parden & Styles Hutchins] who were quite noteworthy in their own right,s because both had distinguished legal careers. And Styles Hutchins had been a member of the Tennessee state legislature at one time. So they both had distinguished careers. They would take on the case after his initial legal team thought that to go forward in more was frivolous. He had several appeals before the district court and the state level court. And so once you keep making up the appeal process, the highest authorities are the Supreme Court of the United States. And Parden would travel to Washington, D.C. and he would be granted a personal audience with Justice John Marshall Harlan. And Justice Harlan is most famous for his dissents, especially that in Plessy vs. Ferguson when he said that the Constitution of the United States is colour-blind and doesn't know or recognise classes amongst the races. And so he was able to get an audience before that justice. But ultimately, the Supreme Court of the United States did decide to take on the case. And when they decided to take on the case, they immediately telegraphed Chattanooga and they said that the execution will be stayed. In other words, you would not execute this prisoner until we've had a chance to review this case.

CO: So Ed Johnson, there was a stay of execution. That did not make people in Chattanooga happy, the White people. And there was the story of when he was taken from the jail and murdered on the bridge, lynched, shows that there was tremendous complicity, right, even amongst the authorities there -- is that right?

EA: Yes. There was the number 1 jailer at the bridge that night that he got lynched. And that was an elderly gentleman in his 70s that the mob quickly dispelled of -- locked him in a closet. And the sheriff also, coincidentally, wasn't in the vicinity at the time, even though that they knew, you know, about the case. And so, yes, it was a lot of complicity that you can see in the case.

CO: This bridge where he was taken and hanged and shot, murdered, this is a bridge -- when you see that bridge, when Black people in Chattanooga look at that bridge, what do they see?

EA: The bridge to us always represented a sign of lynching, a sign that some atrocities that happen not only to our city, but against humanity. And so we can never forget that that wasn't the only lynching that occurred at the bridge. You have to remember that Alfred Blount was hung from the bridge in 1893. And a lot of the circumstances surrounding Alfred Blount's lynching are eerily similar to that, which befell Ed Johnson. It is almost hallowed ground to us because of the blood that we know was spilt on

CO: For the Black community in Chattanooga this bridge and the area around it is a lynching ground. For White people in Chattanooga, it's a playground, it's a place where you go, it's a walking trail, people take their photos, they get marriage pictures taken there. How difficult was it to get Chattanooga to agree, to recognise this bridge as a memorial to Ed Johnson that you have accomplished in doing?

EA: It took a lot out of public outreach, a lot of education, a lot of civic engagement. We had one of our group members, Linda Duvoisin, and she came up with a documentary. And one thing that we used with is that we were able to have 50 public gatherings where we talked about the Ed Johnson case, people were actually able to view it visually. It took two or three years of effort just to get the public will and back.

CO: What do you think Ed Johnson's legacy is?

EA: My favourite story of Ed Johnson is when he was converted in jail. You know, they asked him so when you are in prison, what are your last rights? And his last rights were to be baptised. And so he got to St. James Baptist Church to come and baptise him. And he told that crowd, you know, he was at peace with what was going to happen, that he had a change heart. And I've seen a lot of hearts change in our community to where they want to not only recognise this, but actually to use it as a pretext to show that we are a better community today and hope to be tomorrow than we were before. So I think Ed Johnson's words fit in just in this interview, I have a changed heart.

CO: Eric, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

EA: Thank you very much.

CH: Eric Atkins is the vice chair of the Ed Johnson Project. We reached him in Chattanooga, Tennessee. And you can find more on the story on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Piano Music]

Letter: Orbisculate

CH: We get emails, tweets, and still the occasional voicemail. But the delivery of actual physical mail from listeners is a rarity in the As It Happens office. So we were giddy when we found that Paul Peterson from Ottawa had put pen to postcard and responded to a story we aired earlier this month about the word "Orbisculate." It is not that common a word. In fact, it's a made-up word that one family is trying to get added to the dictionary. It was coined by the late Neil Krieger. It refers to the moment when you dig into a grapefruit or other citrus and it sprays into your eye. But Paul says that the word is even more versatile than Mr. Krieger imagined. He writes...

CO: "There is a famous Hungarian dish called Szilvas Gomboc." And we actually looked up how you say that. "When served hot, each dumpling will squirt out a rich purple plum sauce when poked with a knife. Whenever the dish is served in our household, we're reminded of this squirting tendency by citing the occasion when a favourite uncle knifes the Gomboc, causing it to squirt juice over his white shirt and silk tie. Replacing the word squirt with orbisculate, gives the dish the dignity it deserves and is another great word for the Scrabble board." Well, thanks for writing Paul. And you're absolutely right. And here from our archives, is part of our interview with Hilary Krieger, whose late father coined the word "Orbisculate."

HILARY KRIEGER: Well, my father, Neil Krieger, in college had an assignment where he had to invent a word. So he came up with orbisculate for his class assignment and he decided to just keep using the word as a real word. So he felt that it was really needed and nobody else had come up with a word. So he had one. So my brother and I just grew up assuming it was a real word. You know, that's how you learn words as your parents say them. And it never occurred to us that this wasn't a universally known word until I was actually back home at my family's house in Boston and a friend from college was over and we were eating oranges and one orbisculated on him, which I noted. And he said, it did what? I said orbisculated on you. He's like, that's not a word. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Of course it's a word. And he just got a creative writing degree. So he figured he knew words. And I'm a journalist, so I knew I knew words. So we ended up making a bet to see if it was in the dictionary. And to my great shock, it was not there. When we open it up.

PA: You must have been crestfallen.

HK: I. Well, you know, actually, my first thought was, what's wrong with this dictionary? Like, why isn't it here? and since we were back home, I ran into my dad's office. I said, Dad, orbisculate is not in this dictionary. What's going on? And he gave me a very, very sheepish look. And he is like, well...

PA: As fate would have it. [laughter]

HK: So, yeah, then I got annoyed. [more laughter]

CH: Earlier this month, that was Hilary Krieger talking with guest host Peter Armstrong. Ms. Krieger's dad coined the term "orbisculate" -- meaning when one accidentally squirts juice into one's eye as from a grapefruit when scooping out a section to eat. You can call Talkback about anything you hear on the program:416-205-5687. And if you'd like to write us a good old fashioned letter, address it to, As It Happens, P.O. Box 500. Station A. Toronto, Ontario. M5W 1E6.

March 18, 2021 Episode Transcript

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