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The AIH Transcript for May 28, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Courting trouble. China leaves no doubt it's angry about a judge's ruling on the extradition of Meng Wanzhou. We reach Canada's foreign affairs minister to find out how he'll move forward with so much hanging in the balance.

CH: Putting COVID on the map. Public health officials in Toronto say a map they've released showing the city's coronavirus cases is not meant to suggest certain neighbourhoods are more dangerous than others.

CO: His words captured on video were, "I can't breathe." On Monday night, George Floyd died after that video showed a police officer kneeling on his neck. Now calls for justice are ringing out through Minneapolis.

CH: Remote possibilities. Nine months ago, two women headed far north in the name of science. They never imagined a global pandemic would leave them stranded there. But they say there are some upsides.

CO: Turning the page. Romance publisher Harlequin is launching a new line entirely dedicated to LGBTQ storylines. The author of one of its first two books tells us it's a relatively chaste dream come true.

CH: And thriller bees. The facts about so-called murder Hornets haven't gotten in the way of a good and scary story, which is why staff at a Washington state hiking area found themselves tearing down fake posters. As It Happens. The Thursday Edition. Ready that supports all the un-stung heroes.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Canada does not have to 'justify' the Meng extradition decision, says foreign affairs minister

Hong Kong

Guest: Francois-Philippe Champagne

CH: China's foreign ministry says Canada's relationship with China could face what it calls continuous harm. That ominous prediction follows yesterday's decision by a B.C. judge. It gave the go ahead for extradition hearings to proceed in the case of Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou. China's renewed frustration is not going to make life any easier for Francois-Philippe Champagne. Mr. Champagne is Canada's minister of foreign affairs. We reached him in Ottawa.

CO: Minister Champagne following the Meng Wanzhou decision, China has warned of continuous harm to the bilateral relations of our government and theirs. They're calling this a mistake and that you should correct it to avoid damage to the relationship. Does that sound like a threat to you?

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Well, I would say to that terrible escalation would not be helpful at this size. We have an independent judiciary in Canada. We believe in the rule of law, it's the foundation in our country. Yesterday, there was an independent decision by a court in British Columbia. And we have said all along and we have been consistent that these decisions are taken independently and that the process is transparent when it comes to extradition. There's a judicial process. This was one step in a process and we will continue to have principal engagement with China.

CO: Does it not sound, though, that they are escalating it with that kind of language?

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Well, my message to them is that escalation would not be helpful at this particular moment. We have said time and time again that I think the prime minister is clear that in our country -- you know, the benefit of having an independent judiciary is that you don't need to explain. You don't need to justify these excuse yourself for court decisions because these decisions are taken independently. So we have conveyed that to the Chinese counterparts. I will be talking to my Chinese counterparts and we will continue to engage responsibly with China and continue to make the case because on one hand, they may want to talk about the Meng case. But for me, the foremost part of the IOP is to get the release of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor, to get clemency for Mr. Schellenberg and all those Canadians who are facing the death penalty in China.

CO: What I'm hearing you say is that you feel that you're on the right course, you're handling this as you should, you are putting the pressure where you think you should and you're going to continue with the kind of engagement you have. But it hasn't worked, has it? Those two men are still in prison and there seems to be no future for getting them out. And what do we've got to lose at this point but to to be more aggressive, to escalate this on our part?

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Well, I think we have been very clear when it comes to that. I mean, we have to engage responsibly with China. And I would say this is not being weak. This is being smart. The pattern we have been following is one of continuous engagement. I spoke to my counterpart on the number of occasions and we will continue to do that. We are engaging with China with eyes wide open. We are engaged with the international community. Many voices have been raised when it comes to arbitrary detention. We have said that that that this is damaging China's reputation and we will continue to advocate. I think Canadians who are listening to us understand how difficult these cases are, they usually takes a long time. But the only way to get to the outcome we want, which is the release, is continuous engagement. We have talked to allies. We have talked to the United States. We're working with the international community to stand up and speak up for the case of the Micheals. And we will continue to do that because in all these cases, the best strategy is to make sure that every time we have a chance to engage with our partners, I think a chance to engage with our counterparts in China is that we bring that back to the table.

CO: And engagement is the key word that you're using in your answer. But how can you engage with Xi Jinping? Have you any evidence that President Xi wants to engage?

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Well, I can say that as Foreign Affairs Minister of Canada, I probably talked to my counterparts in the last, what, four months, every other month that we've been engaged in discussion. We know our differences. We know where their responsibility, when it came to COVID, we said we need transparency, we need cooperation to fight this very challenging situation we're all facing around the world. And I will be talking to him again to make the case for the Michaels. And engagement is not being weak, Carol. This is being smart. You have to be firm to defend your value and your principles. You have to speak up at every opportunity. That's what we're doing. And you have to call it as it is. And in this case, we have said this is arbitrary detention and it needs to stop.

CO: In the remaining time we have I want to turn to Hong Kong, because you have joined a group statement along with the United States, Australia, and others to condemn China for how it's treating Hong Kong with this new national security law that it's trying to get through. But are you getting any progress there? It doesn't seem like, again, that President Xi Jinping is paying much heed to these international calls.

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Well, I would say, you know, we'll have to see. This is the second declaration. I would say that Canada joining it's Canada leading because we had a lot of consultation with the counterparts and the other countries would join. We expressed already our deep concern. We said that the new law, which has been proposed, which will likely be drafted, would curtail Hong Kong's people liberty. And it's concerning to all of us. We know that the one country-two system has provided a high degree of autonomy and allowing Hong Kong to become what it is, flourishing in terms of trade and investment. And now this new law would undermine the framework. And so we're talking to our partners about possible ramification and application of that. And we'll continue to to engage with them. But I think this is a case where Canada stood up and spoke up. We have more 300,000 Canadians living in Hong Kong. So we have a vested interest in seeing a peaceful engagement there. And we'll continue to do that.

CO: We have noted, many have noted, that there seems to be an international political vacuum now that the United States is not taking the lead on such issues. This is a place where others need to step up. Is Canada going to do that? Is Canada going to attempt to fill some of that political vacuum that's been created by the United States?

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: We're doing that. We've done that when it came to PS752 where we're leading the effort to bring justice and accountability and closure for the families and standing up to the Iranian regime. We have spoken up when it came to Taiwan included at the World Health Assembly. We're speaking up. You see, this is the second declaration that Canada has been part to with the United Kingdom, Australian, and this time with the United States. So every time that there's an opportunity for Canada to lead on the international stage, we are there.

CO: And does that mean if this effort to see Canada be part of the U.N. Security Council, is that something that has to be? And if you're going to be able to have that influence, do you see that as an absolutely necessary step?

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Well, you know, this is a time for Canada to lead, to rebuild the new world order, to shape the institutions of the 21st century. This morning, for example, Prime Minister Trudeau with the Prime Minister of Jamaica and the secretary general, hosted, I think, a landmark meeting where you had more than 50 world leaders talking about the sustainable development goal financing. Canada has been there as well when it came to the foreign minister's answer, when it came to air bridges, transit of supply chain. So it's Canada being Canada during a time of crisis. It's leading, it's convening, and providing a positive leadership around the world.

CO: We will leave it there. Minister Champagne thank you.

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: It's always a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

CH: François-Philippe Champagne is Canada's minister of foreign affairs. We reached him in Ottawa. And we have more on this story on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

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George Floyd Killing

Guest: Phillip Cunningham

CH: The video is horrifying and all too familiar. It was taken by bystanders on Monday and shows a white police officer kneeling on the neck of a black man in Minneapolis. That man, George Floyd, says repeatedly that he can't breathe. He asks repeatedly for help. At one point, he says, quote, "They're going to kill me." And after seven minutes under that officer's knee, he dies.

[Sound-clip of crowd chanting "Hands up, don't shoot"]

CH: In the days since Mr. Floyd's death, protests have rocked the streets of Minneapolis, with demonstrators calling on the police officers involved to be arrested. And in city council chambers today, Council vice President Andrea Jenkins sang in support of Mr. Floyd's family.

ANDREA JENKINS: [Singing "Amazing Grace"]

CH: Phillip Cunningham sits alongside Ms. Jenkins on Minneapolis City Council and represents a majority black ward in the city's north end. That's where we reached him.

CO: Mr. Cunningham, what went through your mind when you saw the video of George Floyd's death?

PHILLIP CUNNINGHAM: When I saw it, I just couldn't believe my eyes. You know, as a young black man myself, every time I see one of these incidents, it still shocks me. Being so aware that our lives can be taken with impunity. And then I had to snap back to reality and remember that I'm a city council member here in Minneapolis in the city where this took place and that it's time for me to process and move through that and step up and step into leadership during this really challenging time.

CO: Your chief of police acted swiftly. He fired these men. He's called for an FBI investigation. But this is a police chief who has also said that he was going to deal with violence against black citizens of your city. Has that happened? Do you see this is another example of what the police chief said he was going to try and do something about?

PC: We have a really amazing police chief. He has a perspective and a framework around policing that we would be really lucky to have across this country. And also, it is not possible for one person to change the entire culture of not only an organization, but an institution that was founded in deep disgusting history of slave catching. Really, I would say that while there are less incidents, that doesn't mean that the incidents that are still happening are somehow better. We are still having negative interactions. The city is still paying tens of thousands, even millions of dollars with taxpayer dollars in settlements because of aggressive and violent behaviours by police officers or residents, particularly those who are black and brown.

CO: So there's the quick dismissal of the officers -- but the family of George Floyd's calling for, and many people are calling for in your community is that the police officers be charged with murder. So given the resistance you're describing, is that likely to happen?

PC: So the county attorney decides whether or not to proceed with arrest and conviction. You know, I believe it's the right thing to do. Absolutely. I think that if anybody else who wasn't wearing a badge did that, they would already be arrested and charged. And I think that if somebody does hold a badge, that we should be holding them to even higher standards because we pay them as taxpayers to serve and protect us as a community. I don't necessarily have faith that it will play out in the favour of justice. But I'll also add that even if it does, there's no sense or feeling of closure because this will inevitably happen again, if not here somewhere else.

CO: And you've described that you see a sort of a deep racism within the police force. And so you were in the mayor's office in 2015 when another very controversial killing of a black man, Jamar Clark, fatally shot by police, by Minneapolis police. What causes this resistance to change, given that you live in a progressive city? It's reputed to be very open to reform. What prevents it from happening?

PC: The institution of policing itself is inherently a white supremacist system. When I say that sometimes that's literally sometimes that is more of a framework, meaning to prioritize white safety, white feelings, white fear. You have individuals who maybe consciously do not have racist beliefs, but unbiased conscious they believe that black folks are more likely to commit crimes, that we're more likely to sell drugs or do drugs, which research shows that that is not actually the case. We just get caught more. We haven't been able to really see significant changes because the institution of policing itself is rooted in that way.

CO: Can I ask you about this one particular police officer, there are four involved in this death, Derek Chauvin is someone who has had 12 previous complaints against him for different kinds of behaviour of treating people. Should this not have been dealt with a long time ago, at least for this one officer?

PC: Oh, absolutely. The way that the state of Minnesota has set up disciplining police officers is truly atrocious. In 2012, they disbanded the ability of for cities to have civilian review boards. The only people who can administer discipline are the chiefs and the mayor. That centralized power makes it very challenging to hold folks accountable. And further, the labour contract with the police federation also makes it incredibly challenging. Even if an officer is fired, there is a high percentage that that person will be rehired due to arbitration with the police union.

CO: Can I just ask you finally, there have been a lot of protests, some of them have involved looting and property damage among those who are protesting for action on the arrests -- what would you say to the protesters who actually are causing some damage?

PC: I would say to folks who are causing damage, we have been pushing so aggressively to make these little bits of progress because systems are incredibly hard to change. And what we're seeing is if you're burning down these buildings that have businesses that are owned by people of colour, employ people of colour and houses that are affordable for people of colour, all that is doing is furthering and causing us harm, us being people of colour.

CO: Mr. Cunningham, I appreciate speaking with you. We'll obviously be following the story of George Floyd. Thank you so much.

PC: Thank you for taking the time.

CH: Phillip Cunningham is a city councillor in Minneapolis.

[Music]

Norway Crew

Guest: Sunniva Sorby

CH: When Hilda Falun Strom and Sunniva Sorby headed off to one of Norway's most remote northern corners nine months ago, they assumed that they would be home by now. The plan was to devote their time to science, become the first women only crew to overwinter in the region, and take in some stunning scenery. Well, check, check, and check. But what has gone unchecked was the last part. Heading home in early May to fanfare and families and hard to remember luxuries like electricity and running water. Because of the pandemic, the pair is settling in for an unexpected yearlong tenure in the Arctic. We reached Sunniva Sorby by satellite phone in the Bamsebu cabin, 140 kilometres from the northernmost town in Svalbard, Norway.

CO: Sunniva just start off by telling me about your surroundings and where you are right now, where you're living.

SUNNIVA SORBY: Yes, I'm currently in a 20 square metre trapper's cabin at seventy eight degrees north, way up in the Arctic between the North Pole and the northern tip of mainland Norway. 140 kilometres away from the nearest town or any neighbour, very isolated.

CO: And what does it look like?

SS: Right now, I have two windows in the living room that I'm sitting in and I am looking out at the mountain ranges surrounding the area, ice and dotting the fjord systems. Reindeer are grazing on the tundra and the geese are here. And we know for a fact that there are a couple of polar bears to the east and to the west of us. It's an absolutely magical environment.

CO: Okay, but you were supposed to be home right now, right?

SS: I was. [Chuckles] I was expecting to join 100 passenger ships that would have come into this beautiful little fjord here to pick Hilda and l up on May 8th. And that came to a pretty abrupt stop for everybody's safety.

CO: So when you and Hilda first heard about this thing COVID-19 and the possibility that it was going to disrupt your plans, how did you feel about that?

SS: You know, it was truly difficult to comprehend. We are living in a cabin with no running water, no electricity, no news, no TV, no radio. So we got trickles of information in, and slowly started formulating a picture before the word pandemic came across our email feed where the world was spinning off its axis. And it was deeply saddening for us. We are both in the adventure tourism industry, myself in the Antarctic, Hilda in the Arctic. And, you know, so many people have lost their lives. We were just hearing of, you know, borders being closed. And this picture just was very very difficult for us to comprehend and deeply deeply saddening for a lot of different reasons.

CO: What expectations do you have that you are going to be rescued at some point?

SS: Well, we actually don't need to be rescued. We have chosen to be here just given the limitations around the world. You know, it took some soul searching, but we've both come to the conclusion that it's best for us and our research partners that we stay here and continue to collect data. So we're looking at September as Plan A.. And that is Plan A.

CO: But given the fact that you're so far from family and the people that are going through what you described, are you fairly torn between being glad that you can stay and wishing you could be home?

SS: Oh, boy, yes. You know, there was so much expectation leading up to what would have been an absolutely off the chart celebration with music onboard and fanfare. And we will have, you know, just made history of the first women to overwinter in Svalbard without a man. Yay! [Chuckles] You know, we would have had a lot to celebrate in May. And so there's that part that it's very easy to turn that off and understand that, you know, everybody is having to self isolate at home right now. So we wouldn't even be coming back to a world that would be very familiar to us. So it doesn't take away the tearing of emotions in terms of I'd love to just hug my people and just sit in the same room without data disconnecting and seeing somebody.

CO: I guess if you're going to be isolated like the whole world is right now, you are very isolated and in a beautiful place.

SS: You know what, Carol? I think that we are in the most beautiful place on the planet right now. We have been healthy for nine months, strong as oxes. We are chopping wood, carrying ice for water. You know, we're living so close to nature. And, you know, it is an existence that I wish everybody could experience. So we're trying to capture some of that with our weekly vlog updates just to share how important the connection that we have to our natural world is for our creativity and mental health and sense of self.

CO: And how is your work going up there? If you're going to continue on to September, what are you hoping to achieve?

SS: We will continue to -- and now that the ice has moved out of the fjord system -- we will either put our kayaks in the water or our boats as soon as enough ice moves out and we'll collect saltwater samples and phytoplankton samples. We will continue to take cloud observations for NASA. We'll continue to fly our infrared drone that takes thermal imagery of temperature, sea surface, and sea ice temperature. And we will continue with our wildlife observation. All of that is part of the citizen science data collection that we're doing.

CO: Do you have the supplies that you need to get to shoot till September?

SS: No, we do not have all the supplies we need. Actually, we're in the middle of trying to get another resupply in here. We don't have any more fresh fruit or fresh vegetables. I'm running out of coffee, and that's not a good thing. [Laugh] We can make do. We have a lot of canned food. We have a lot of dried food. So we'll be okay. We'll be able to fish soon as well.

CO: Well, it sounds very mixed, but sounds so lovely for you to be there. But I hope you don't break a record and become the first women only crew to have a second winter in the Arctic. Come home in September! [Laughs]

SS: Oh, I'd like to come home and especially love to come home to my Squamish area.

CO: Sunniva it is great to speak with you and I hope you have a great summer up there and we'll talk soon. Thank you.

SS: Thank you very much Carol.

CH: Sunniva Sorby was supposed to be home in Squamish, B.C. right now but because of COVID-19, she and fellow adventurer Hilda Falun Strom will be staying put in northern Norway with the hearts in the ice program until at least September.

[Music]

Murder Hornets

CH: The murder hornets are back in a swarm of misconceptions. If you heard our interview earlier this month with Canada's top murder hornet-ologist, you'll know that he objects to that nickname. Asian giant Hornets are an invasive species. And you could legitimately call them murderous, but only if you're a honeybee. In which case they will eat your head off. Otherwise, they're more like surly, threatening, petty criminal hornets. They can kill humans, but it's extremely rare. A rash of stories a few weeks ago emphasizing the hornets size, large, and sting excruciating set off a disproportionate degree of murder hornet paranoia. And now an info war too. This week, official looking signs alarmed hikers in a Washington state park. The posters warn visitors that murder hornets were nesting in the area. But area officials say there hasn't actually been a single confirmed sighting this year. Now, it is unfortunate that at the very same time, a Langley, B.C. woman killed a big bug, which has now been confirmed to have been an Asian giant hornet. Adding extra sting, Langley is outside the area previously thought to be at risk from the invaders. But no matter where you are or whether the signs you're seeing are real or false, the facts stand: Giant hornets are almost certainly not going to murder you.

[Music]

Part 2: Harlequin's new LGBTQ line of romance books 'very empowering,' author says

Toronto Neighbourhood Covid

Guest: Vinita Dubey

CH: For the past few months, public health officials have told us the safest place to be during the pandemic is at home. But new information released this week by Toronto public health shows that might not be the entire story. Yesterday, Toronto health officials revealed detailed geographic information about the spread of COVID-19 in the city, highlighting neighborhoods that have seen a higher concentration of positive cases. But while Ontario's biggest city has released geographic infection data, the premier of Ontario has yet to do so. Despite seeing that quote, some areas are lighting up like a Christmas tree. Dr. Vinita Dubey is an associate medical officer of health with Toronto Public Health.

CO: Dr. Dubey, why did you decide to release this information?

VINITA DUBEY: First of all, we've had a number of cases in Toronto, over 10000, and so we're not worried we're going to disturb anyone's personal health information. But we also think it's really important for everyone to know that this virus has impacted every single neighbourhood in this city.

CO: This map clearly shows it is impacted certain neighbourhoods far more than others. So what does that tell you?

VD: That's right. It has shown that people who live in certain neighbourhoods have disproportionately gotten this virus compared to other neighbourhoods. And what it means is we need to figure out what is causing that. Is it the kinds of jobs that these people are doing? Is it related to any other social determinants of health? Things like poverty or being in a racialized population? And to be able to plan for it before we were to say, get a second wave of COVID.

CO: And what can you already tell us about those neighbourhoods? They are mostly in the northeast and northwest places where there are a lot of apartment towers, larger numbers of people who are having to go out and work with. Can you tell us a bit more about the character of these neighbourhoods?

VD: Yeah, it's all of those things that we want to be able to look at. Some of the neighbourhoods actually don't have a lot of high rises. Some of them do. But it's not quite clear. We can't quite say this is the reason why they're getting COVID. We do know, though, from other data that we did, we call it ecological data or population level data, looking at the whole city as a whole, which neighbourhoods have lower incomes, more racialized populations, maybe more new immigrants. Are they more likely to get COVID? And we found at that population level that, yes, there was some disparity. And so we want to be able to see now at the individual level in these neighbourhoods, is that what's playing out?

CO: If you want to see that to what end, what do you want to do with this data?

VD: Well, we want to be able to work with the communities in these neighbourhoods to help figure out, you know, exactly why people living in these neighbourhoods are getting COVID and to see if there's something that we can do about it. For example, in Ontario, we have a broad testing strategy. And so maybe it means that we need to be able to provide more testing sites or maybe even a mobile test centre in one of these neighbourhoods. Maybe language has been a barrier. Maybe it's been related to crowding. So determining what some of the things are and what can we actually do about it is what we want to be able to investigate.

CO: What we've heard from so many people we have spoken with is that the testing is not helpful unless you can do the tracing, unless you can find out who else may have got it from them, who they may have got it from. And that is something that we have not seen being done to any great degree in Ontario or Toronto. So are you going to move in that direction?

VD: Well, we've always been doing contact tracing for every time we have a lab confirmed case, but maybe there are cases in these neighbourhoods that were never detected. And so we could not do that contact tracing. And that's why one of the strategies is actually to be able to provide more testing in these neighbourhoods.

CO: We spoke with a doctor in a Toronto hospital this week who said that the strategy has been incoherent. And in the absence of that, doctors and hospitals themselves have had to come up with their own policies of testing and tracing, that they've essentially gone rogue in the absence of any direction. What do you say to that?

VD: We're in the middle of a pandemic. I mean, this is a virus that we've only known about since the end of December. And we are constantly evolving our message and evolving our approaches. And so I think we have to be nimble and we have to recognize that what we did yesterday may be different from what we're doing today. And so while now we have lab capacity up and running, we're able to do more tests, let's do more tests.

CO: But what do you say to doctors like her? Another doctor is saying the same thing, the organization of the testing, the strategies in whatever neighbourhood you're in is shambolic.

VD: Well, let's do better then. I mean, this is part of releasing this data is so that we can see, are there particular neighbourhoods that we maybe need to concentrate more resources rather than doing one blanket approach across the city? We're a very big city and it may be that one size does not fit all.

CO: Your boss, Dr. Eileen de Villa, warned against stigmatizing certain communities. Isn't that exactly what you're doing with this?

VD: People call them hot spots, but that's the wrong terminology to use because it implies that if you go into these neighbourhoods, you're more likely to get COVID. And we know that absolutely that is not the case. It just means that more people who had COVID live in these neighbourhoods and more than likely they actually got COVID in other parts of the city where they were working, where they were meeting with others. So it's really important that we don't stigmatize that. We don't mistakenly say that these are places where COVID is more likely to spread because that's certainly not what the data is telling us.

CO: We heard from the Premier Doug Ford, who said that some parts of the province were, quote, "lighting up like a Christmas tree." But this data hasn't been released. And there are many in parts of Ontario that want to know where can people go back to school work and go back to work and where they shouldn't be? Isn't that something we need to know?

VD: We do need to know where we're seeing transmission or whereas the virus spreading. The data that we presented is the cumulative total. So it's of all cases of COVID that we've had in Toronto. So those 10,500 cases, where have they lived. In terms of figuring out, well, where are our current cases getting COVID? That's part of our ongoing investigations of the new cases. And as public health measures get loosened, that's definitely something that we want to keep an eye on. Is it mostly in workplaces? How much are social settings now influencing where people are getting COVID? And what kind of messages can we tell people to prevent the spread? We do expect that as you open things up, more people are mingling. So the more contact you're having with other people, we expect that the virus, when it's out there, is going to spread. And so that's why one of our measures is to make sure that we have enough case in contact tracers in place and testing so that we can find the cases early, put them in isolation, put their contacts in isolation and hope that we can contain the spread that way.

CO: All right. We'll leave it there. Dr. Dubey thank you.

VD: My pleasure.

CH: Dr. Vinita Dubey is an associate medical officer of health at Toronto Public Health. She's in Toronto.

[Music]

Ryan Hicks

CH: Ryan Hicks has a message for Quebec Premier Francois Legault "Don't just read the disturbing reports, come and see for yourself." Mr, Hicks volunteered to go into work at one of Quebec's long term care residences for seniors affected by COVID-19. He used to be CBC, Quebec's National Assembly reporter, this week. He wrote an open letter to Premier Legault suggesting he join him on the front lines to see firsthand what it's really like. For his part, Ryan Hicks says the experience has left him, quote, "stunned, shocked and moved." Here he is speaking with his former colleague, CBC Quebec host Peter Tardif today.

RYAN HICKS: On the floor that I worked on in the wing, it was me and a patient attendant for 14 residents with varying stages of dementia. For that whole shift all we were doing was feeding, changing diapers, trying to have some social interaction. But that day was really really hard to do that because we just needed to get people to a minimum level of care. And they have been in this situation for 11 weeks. You know, there are people there who were supposed to have rehab for a broken hip or a broken bone that hasn't happened for ten or eleven weeks. You know, it's not really sustainable to keep seniors in this situation.

PETER TARDIF: In your article, you're asking Quebec Premier Francois Legault to spend a day on the front lines. How do you hope that would impact him in his view on the current crisis?

RYAN HICKS: I really believe in the power of visuals. You know, I was a TV journalist. Nothing compares to seeing the exhaustion, the desperation to talking to some of these residents. Some of them ask, when is this going to be over? Well, how do I answer that question? And I can't say "ca ve bien aller" anymore because it's been 11 weeks. Things are are not all right and there's no plan. You know, he would really see, like, what it means to have to speak to a person who has just been tested positive for COVID, who's crying, who's distraught, who needs some counselling. And he'll see how we have to take this huge red tape and place it along her door to indicate that she's a COVID positive resident and that we have to be careful going between her room and a COVID negative room. He needs to experience how when someone passes away, we sometimes have to put their belongings in garbage bags and put a Post-it note with their name on it and put it in a maintenance closet. Like that is not the way death should be happening.

CH: Ryan Hicks is a former CBC reporter. He spoke today to Peter Tardif. To read Ryan Hicks open letter to the Quebec premier go to cbc.ca/Montreal.

[Music]

Harlequin LGBT

Guest: Philip William Stover

CH: Harlequin romance novels are a big business. But they haven't always been a terribly inclusive one. That's something Philip William Stover knows firsthand as a reader, and now he's hoping to play a small part in correcting that as a writer. His new book, The Hideaway Inn, is one of two published this week under the Carina Adores line, a brand new Harlequin banner entirely devoted to LGBTQ stories. And for Mr. Stover, that's a very big deal. We reached him in Bucks County, Pennsylvania.

CO: Philip, can you tell us without spoilers a bit about your new book, The Hideaway In?

PHILIP WILLIAM STOVER: Sure. The Hideaway Inn is a very traditional romance in many aspects. It's about a guy who returns home with a chip on his shoulder and finds out that the person he had a crush on as a kid is not exactly the same person he thought he was. This book was inspired by the Lavenders in Boston, these windows that are lavender that people thought were an imperfection for many years until they actually decided they were something beautiful. And I wanted to write something about somebody who thinks their imperfection is preventing them from being loved. But that imperfection is actually what made them beautiful.

CO: You have been a successful writer for some time. You were writing books mostly for teenage girls. How different is this?

PHILIP WILLIAM STOVER: Very different. In some ways their stories are very similar. People always want to be accepted. They always want to be loved. They always have miscommunication with the people they love. But they're different in that these are stories that I really connect to and that I really understand and that I really think are important to be told.

CO: How satisfying is that for you?

PHILIP WILLIAM STOVER: You know, I grew up reading romance and as a young gay boy reading romance, I would have to as soon as I got the books home, I ripped off the covers, and then once I ripped off the covers, I got another book, like a Star Wars book, and I put that in front of the book I was reading because if I didn't do that, I'd get the book kicked out of my hand or something worse. So I found all these ways to sort of hide what I was doing. So being a Harlequin romance writer, writing gay romance is a huge experience for me. It's something I never thought would happen. And I really think about that boy reading romance and hiding and reading it in the corners and shadows of the library. And I think about this book and it takes place over summer, which I really wanted. And it has lots of sunshine. And they are outdoors and they are who they need to be from page one until the end. So for me, that is an incredibly important journey.

CO: Sticking with that image of you with the romance books, because they would have been heterosexual relationships in those books. What does it mean then for another generation to be able to read romance books that reflect their own experience with same sex relationships?

PHILIP WILLIAM STOVER: Well, I think it empowers them. I think for me as a kid, it taught me empathy and sympathy for lots of different points of view because I was constantly trying to navigate that for myself. But I was never really sure where I fit in that equation. And I think for people reading those books who don't have to do the emotional work of translating the experience to themselves, I think that can be very empowering.

CO: We know that there are smaller presses that have been publishing this kind of work for a while about LGBTQ relationships. But what's the significance of Harlequin, the biggest of these enterprises, that Harlequin is now doing this?

PHILIP WILLIAM STOVER: I mean, I think it's huge. The first time I entered the Harlequin author network portal online, it felt like entering the gates of someplace very sacred and very special. This book is really a traditional romance in so many ways, and it's about the feeling that happens in river towns and small villages. I grew up always wanting to be a part of that, but I never thought there was a place for me in those very typical small town events. And I've realized that since I was a kid, those things have really shifted. And the frame for how we see that type of traditional romance has shifted. So being a part of it is incredibly exciting.

CO: We know that Harlequin romances have allowed for some exploration of issues in society. Can you do that? Can you explore some of the societal tensions there are around these relationships?

PHILIP WILLIAM STOVER: Oh, absolutely. I mean, this book has a wide spectrum of gender in it. Different types of people are represented in it. And the issues that are related to romance, I think, are issues that are specifically important to gay people. Issues about how not being accepted makes you feel like you're unworthy of love, then issues about masculinity. Vince is a character who was teased for not being the type of man the rest of the boys were at school. And he leaves creating a persona that is so hard and solid and so hyper masculine as a way of protecting himself from ever being in that vulnerable state again. And I think that's a way that gay people protect themselves is a way of being in the world. And I wanted to write a romance about how that really creates obstacles for people trying to find themselves and trying to find love.

CO: We also know that Harlequin has has permitted [chuckles] a certain amount of more provocative sex scenes in it, more daring and steamy moments. How much freedom do you have?

PHILIP WILLIAM STOVER: For me? [Laughs]

CO: No, not in your life. [Laughs] In your writing. We won't go there.

PHILIP WILLIAM STOVER: I've been married 22 years. I don't know...[Laughs]

CO: Are you blushing? [Chuckles] Let's go back to the book itself. [Laughter] How much license do you have in the writing of your book to be graphic?

PHILIP WILLIAM STOVER: Well, you know, the answer to this is interesting because these books are very chaste. But that's what I wanted to do. And it's really a greater freedom to not have to write erotica. And I was never pushed or forced in to something make it sexier or hotter, like raise the heat, raise the heat. I was actually given the freedom to create whatever heat level I wanted, and I really wanted to deal more with the emotions and have a sweeter romance than that. So the answer is there was a tremendous amount of freedom, so much so that I didn't have to exercise it, if that makes sense.

CO: Yeah, it does. And I know that there is that suggestion of sexuality is more interesting usually than some of the sex scenes I have read. [Laughs]

PHILIP WILLIAM STOVER: And now I am blushing. [Laughs]

CO: Well now that I got to blushing Philip, I'll let you go. And thanks so much for speaking with us.

PHILIP WILLIAM STOVER: Thank you so much. Bye bye.

CH: Philip William Stover is the author of The Hideaway Inn -- one of the first two novels published this week by Harlequin under its new Carina Adores line dedicated to LGBTQ romance writing. We reached Mr. Stover in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. And for more on this story, visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Francis Levasseur

CH: Hibernation is over for bears anyway, and that means they're wandering around British Columbia. And since people do that too, surprise meetings are inevitable. Usually these meetings end with the bear losing interest of the human hiding from the bear. But Francis Levasseur's bear encounter with significantly more memorable and more scary. It began when Mr. Levasseur was out for a jog on a popular trail in the Kootenays when he spotted a big black bear. He told the story to CBC British Columbia's Radio West.

FRANCIS LEVASSEUR: He was about 100 metres away from me. And then he looked at me and started walking towards me. So I started screaming really loud and making noise and I waved my hand in the air. Then I took a stick and I waved just to kind of make myself bigger and more scarier. And then he started charging at me. We were still about 100 metres away from each other. So I turned around and I saw a tree and I just climbed it. I waited ten minutes, fifteen minutes. Then I start climbing down the tree because I thought the bear was gone finally. And so as soon as I start climbing down the tree, he came back again towards me. So I climbed up the tree again, like way higher. I was about 20 feet in the air. And I was screaming at the bear. And for like two hours, he kept coming back every 10 minutes and just trying to find a way, figure out a way to get to me. And after two hours later, I started hearing a lady screaming, so I thought someone's coming to help me. And so I screamed back and I said "Watch out there's a bear! I got attacked by a bear." And I wanted to make sure that the lady or the person coming to rescue me didn't get into trouble because I didn't want to see either someone get ripped apart in front of me. So finally, maybe 15 minutes later, I heard a dog barking and there was a man arriving and I was so happy to see him. So I climbed on the tree and I fell maybe halfway. So I was a bit bruised in the morning just by fall. But at least I was alive and in one piece.

CH: That's Francis Levasseur speaking with CBC British Columbia's Radio West about his frightening encounter with a bear on a trail in southeastern B.C.. Mr. Levasseur said he went back the next day with two armed conservation officers to try to find and destroy the bear. But it was long gone.

[Music]

Brian Sims

CH: In a news release yesterday, a Pennsylvania Republican lawmaker announced that he had tested positive for coronavirus, but he wrote he's feeling better now. His constituents might be relieved, but his Democratic colleagues are furious. The timing is important here. Representative Andrew Lewis had last been in the state capitol building on May 14th. He took a covered 19 test on May 18th. He received a positive result on May 20th. One week later, he put out the release, quote, "Out of respect for my family and those who I may have exposed. I chose to keep my positive case private." To be fair, Mr. Lewis did tell his Republican colleagues, many of whom self quarantined, but Democrats claim none of them was made aware and it would have been nice to know. Democratic Representative Brian Sims is fuming. Here's part of what he said in a Facebook live post yesterday night.

BRIAN SIMS: So for those of you that know, the Pennsylvania House of Representative has been perhaps the most active state legislator in the entire country during the entire COVID-19 crisis, the state government committee has met so that their members could line up one after one after one and explain that it was safe to go back to work. It was safe to go back to race car driving or dog grooming or getting your haircut. I just spent the better part of the last 11 weeks sitting across the room from people who would eventually test positive and decided not to tell us. They did do some kind of warranting. They did do some kind of contact tracing. They, I guess, being Republican leadership. I know one of the members put out a statement saying, I was looking out for my family! Well you were exposing our families. One of the members of state government has a wife who is immune-compromised. You've no idea how the people around you are impacted, and that's why it's so important to notify people. So here's what needs to happen. Here's what I think needs to happen. Any member of Republican leadership that knew that members were testing positive, that other members were being quarantined, and did not tell those of us who were exposed to those members needs to be investigated by the attorney general! And I think that there needs to be prosecutions. There is no legislature in the country that has met as much as the Pennsylvania legislature. And there is no committee that is met in the state legislature as much as the state government committee. And we had to listen to the secession of members coming before us telling us that this was fake, that this wasn't real, that there was no risks, all the while knowing that they were testing positive and withholding that from us.

CH: That was Democratic Pennsylvania Representative Brian Sims in a video posted to social media last night.

[Music]

Part 3: This Swedish restaurant serves one patron at a time, alone in a field, using pulleys

San Francisco Contact Tracing

Guest: Jessica Jaramillo

CH: Test, track, and trace. That's been billed as one of the most effective methods for preventing the spread of COVID-19. And that approach has been a key element of the successes in places like South Korea and New Zealand. It's a relatively straightforward strategy, but it's a resource and labour intensive one that many jurisdictions have struggled to execute. In San Francisco, contact tracing efforts have meant redeploying some 150 city workers to make phone calls to people with COVID-19 and their contacts. Jessica Jaramillo is one of those people. Ordinarily, she's a city librarian. Today, she's trying to get ahead of the spread of coronavirus in her community. We reached Ms. Jaramillo in San Francisco.

CO: Jessica, can you just walk us through one of your contact tracing calls? Just how did these conversations typically go?

JESSICA JARAMILLO: So I usually have myself all set up already with my script, and I let them know that I'm calling on behalf of the San Francisco...I almost said San Francisco Public Library.

CO: I know that's where you used to work. [Chuckles]

JJ: That's what I used to say. But I let someone know that I'm calling on behalf of the San Francisco Department of Public Health and that I'm calling them because they were identified by someone who has COVID-19.

CO: And you're telling them that they have been in contact with this person. And then what you have to tell them? What warnings do you give them?

JJ: I mean, we start off just having a conversation. I want to check and see if they know the name of the person. I'm not able to give them the name of that person. But sometimes, you know, someone will say, oh yeah, I know who that is. And they'll give me a different name. And I might want to explore that just a little bit further, just to have that to pass on to our contact investigation team. And we talk about their living situation because often people are living in multi-family homes. Maybe there are more people in the house that we want to talk to or that we want to be aware of. So we go through that. And then the next part is assessing how they themselves are doing. Are they experiencing symptoms of COVID-19? And then finally, we set them up for testing and we make sure that they have enough food and cleaning supplies to be able to stay inside for up to 14 days.

CO: And how do people feel about these phone calls when you make them? How receptive are they?

JJ: Most people are really willing to talk with you. They have a sense of feeling cared for and thought about. I think sometimes there's a little bit of stress in the initial knowledge if they weren't aware that they've been in contact with someone who has COVID-19. And, you know, I think part of what happens here sometimes is that because we have undocumented people who fear deportation, they don't always want to tell you, they're not always sure it's safe. And so, you know, in those instances, which truly are not most of the experience that we're having, you just really have to work on developing a relationship, making them feel safe and helping them to understand what the goal of contact tracing is and why we're doing it in the community. And overall, people are really okay with telling you, you know, I live with this number of people and the last day that I was at work was three days ago. They're willing to tell you those things. And I think it's because we work really hard to help people understand that this is really about keeping the community safe and stopping the spread of this virus.

CO: And you mentioned that there are people who are undocumented. I understand you do a lot of these interviews in Spanish.

JJ: Yes. I do all of my contact tracing interviews in Spanish. I will say that I have colleagues who are doing contact tracing and they're using interpreters and many of them are having good experiences. But I think that in some instances, particularly where someone is more suspicious or less comfortable trusting that this is an honest effort, I think that it is important to reach people in their language.

CO: You have to give them direction as well as to what they should do since they've been in contact. How receptive are they to that? Do have those who don't want to hear this?

JJ: Yeah, I think that here in the U.S., people have to choose sometimes between their job and quarantining or self isolation. And those conversations are a bit trickier because you can't offer someone that you're going to pay them their salary, right. So they have to choose sometimes between taking care of themselves and the community in this way or, you know, taking care of themselves and their family in some sense. And we try to make it as easy as possible for them. But, you know, I think also when you're hearing that you've been in contact with someone who has this disease, that can be really scary. The kind of information that you get can be a little bit overwhelming. Understanding the level of sort of like cleaning that has to happen if you're sharing the space or the fact that, you know, you probably don't have a second bathroom that someone can use or any of those things like that, I think, can be daunting. And so just kind of walking through that with someone and letting them ask the questions that they need to ask is really important.

CO: We know that hear in Canada they're having a lot of conversations about how it's pointless to test people unless you're going to do the tracing because we have to know where the infections are coming from and where they're going to go next. And so what you described sounds really difficult. We get a sense of how difficult it will be to trace these sources of infection. Are you getting a larger understanding of how complex it is to actually trace down the source of this infection?

JJ: Yes. I mean, we you know, especially when we're looking at multi-family dwellings or here we have residents hotels, and that's a place where, you know, you have people who are living in rooms, they share a bathroom like you see exponentially how the contacts can grow from one person. And it does make me think a lot and give me pause about how this is going to change as our shelter in place ends and people start going out more, the contacts will grow exponentially. And it does feel daunting, but it also feels like it becomes more necessary, you know, to try and get a handle on it right now so that we're prepared more when our shelter in place ends.

CO: All right. Well it's a cautionary tale for all of us. Jessica I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

JJ: Sure.

CH: Jessica Jaramillo is a city librarian in San Francisco who's currently working as a contact tracer. We reached her in San Francisco.

[Music]

Sweden Resto for One

Guest: Rasmus Persson

CH: Rasmus Persson and Linda Karlsson only opened their new pop up restaurant Bord For En a few weeks ago, but it's already booked up for the rest of the summer. In a meadow by their home in rural Sweden, Mr. Persson and Ms. Karlsson are serving a three-course meal prepared with locally sourced ingredients. But it's not really the food that’s drawing guests to dine at their restaurant. It's the solitude. We reached Rasmus Perrson in Ransater, Sweden.

CO: Rasmus, can you describe what Bord For En looks like?

RASMUS PERSSON: It's a typical Swedish summer meadow. It's one table and one chair and the grass is actually kind of long already. And there's flowers and you're sitting facing a forest, basically.

CO: What's the experience that you are thinking someone is going to have there?

RP: It's very individual, of course. [Chuckles] But our ambition and our hopes and dreams is that people are going to have an inner experience and inner journey of sorts. And also a short break from all of the stress in life that we're all facing right now.

CO: Just run us through how this works. You get your day to go to eat at the restaurant in the field. And what happens? Describe the process.

RP: First, you arrive to our sign. There is a rope and you follow that rope and the rope leads you to the meadow. The table is set for you. And when you sit down, there's a letter from someone that, you know, this is something that we've curated beforehand and we've asked our guests to supply us with some of their friends names. And we've made sure that one of their friends writes them a letter. So there's social interaction that first before the first drink arrives and then the evening transpires from that, I guess. It's a three course meal. And for each course, there is also a poem that we've had poets curate for us. So it's sort of an artistic experience.

CO: Yes. [Chuckles] And you say there's no interaction with others besides these letters and poems. But is there not somebody waiting on the table? Is no one coming to serve the food?

RP: No, that's the thing. We wanted to create a space that's one 100 percent corona free as much as we could, at least. So we've created a rope operated basket from a pulley basically that leads from our second floor kitchen in our house and then 60-70 metres out into the meadow. There is a basket coming, delivering all the food and drinks.

CO: Are they under any pressure to eat and get out of there because you have another sitting arriving or not?

RP: No, not at all. There is only one guest each day, so there's no stress. [Chuckles] As you can tell, it's brilliant financially.

CO: Yes. [Chuckles] I was going to ask, are you charging them hundreds of dollars for this meal?

RP: No, that's the thing. I mean, when we came up with this idea, we realized we're never going to make money from a restaurant with just one share in it. Instead, we wanted to celebrate or honour the fact that in these times there are so many people losing things in our surroundings and in our environment. I mean, people are losing their loved ones and they are losing their jobs. And some of us are losing our minds. So we wanted to be a kind of a safe haven or just this small respite from daily stress and life. So what we say is that we ask our guests to volunteer what they want to pay or what they feel like they have an opportunity to pay. I mean, we have this opportunity to do this in this capacity. We've decided to do it for the summer and we'll see what happens after that.

CO: It actually sounds quite enchanting. Who are you the most likely to get, who wants to come and eat at this restaurant?

RP: Well, in Sweden right now, there's quite strict restrictions as to where and how far you're allowed to travel. So we thought when we started it that it would only be people in the close surroundings. But judging from the phone numbers of our guests, we can tell that there is a lot of international guests. But I'm assuming that they're spending their time in our region for some reason.

CO: I understand standard that it's mostly men.

RP: Yeah, for some reason it's mostly men. I'm a man myself and I've had some theories as to why that's the case. I suppose statistically, men are more alone than women. Men have a tendency to lose their social friendships and stuff later on in life. I've felt it myself as I've become a father and I'm kind of drifting, I wouldn't say desolation [chuckles], but, you know, isolation at least.

CO: I have to ask you a harder question here just because you are in Sweden and in Sweden, we know that it's been very controversial that Sweden has had not as strict rules as they have elsewhere as lock down. And you had quite a high per capita death rate. How do you personally feel about how your country has dealt with the pandemic?

RP: I feel like there's a lot of things that I don't know. I know for sure that to be stuck inside, it's not a good thing if you're living with a violent man, for example. And it's not a good thing if your company goes bankrupt. And it's not a good thing if you're a child with a violent parent. There are so many ways of analyzing a lockdown. So it's really hard to grasp for just a person like me. I guess what we're hoping in Sweden, all of us inhabitants, is that our country's economic situation will perhaps be a little bit better from not imposing the really strict lockdowns. And instead trusting us inhabitants that we ourselves can take responsibility of enforcing those sort of restrictions on ourselves.

CO: Just before we let you go, do you have your guest for today? Do you have somebody who's dining at your restaurant?

RP: We've already sent them away actually. It's kind of late here in Sweden.

CO: And was it a man?

RP: Yeah.

CO: And did he enjoy it?

RP: He seemed to enjoy it. We don't talk to them. But he did leave some some money for us.

CO: I wish you success. It is a lovely idea. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

RP: Thank you.

CO: Good night.

RP: Good night.

CH: Rasmus Persson is the co-owner of a new pop up restaurant for one called Bord For En. We reached Mr. Perrson in Ransater, Sweden. You can find more on this story, including photos on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

From our archives: Snakes

CH: There is one calming truth about being stuck in the house these days, the snakes are outside and we're inside. And if that is the one mental life raft you've been clinging to for months, turn the radio off. Or if you're listening to the podcast, take your ear buds out and stomp on them for good measure, because these stories will wrap themselves around your brain and squeeze. First from 1987, guest host Nancy Cooper spoke with Laurie Lamothe of Hamilton, Ontario, and Mark Morgenstern of Cleveland, Ohio. As It Happens was hoping Mr. Morgenstern had some advice for Ms. Lamothe because he had experienced the same problem she was experiencing.

NANCY COOPER: Laurie Lamothe, it seems that you and Mark Morgenstern have something in common.

LAURIE LAMOTHE: Yeah. Snake in a toilet. [Laughs].

NANCY COOPER: Who wants to go first on this? Laurie, yours happened when?

LAURIE LAMOTHE: On Sunday morning.

NANCY COOPER: What happened?

LAURIE LAMOTHE: I walked into the bathroom and discovered a snake in the toilet.

NANCY COOPER: Does this sound familiar, Mr. Morgenstern?

MARK MORGENSTERN: Actually, I can't believe it.

LAURIE LAMOTHE: Someone else had the same experience. But I wanted to know was how you lowered the snake out of your toilet.

MARK MORGENSTERN: Oh, I did it the easy way. I closed the doors and ran and called the police immediately. My greatest fear when I was going away was that when I came back, the snake wouldn't be there. I was afraid it would have gone right back down in the toilet. But when the police came, the snake was already out of the toilet, wrapped around the toilet seat. So I never had the problem.

LAURIE LAMOTHE: Mine didn't do that. Mine came out about two feet. And that's when I noticed it. And it went back in because it was scared. And so I turned the light off in the bathroom and shut the door. And when I went to walk in yesterday morning, it was back in my washroom but it had not come out of the toilet yet. Like this snake is about six feet long.

NANCY COOPER: Now, you two are talking as if you're discussing your pet gerbils. [Laughs] What is yours, Laurie? A boa constrictor?

LAURIE LAMOTHE: It is.

NANCY COOPER: It's not your pet, though.

LAURIE LAMOTHE: No, it's not.

NANCY COOPER: You just opened the door of your bathroom...

LAURIE LAMOTHE: Discovered the boa constrictor. The gentleman two floors up owns them. And like, you know, he apparently got away from him on Saturday night.

NANCY COOPER: This is in an apartment building.

LAURIE LAMOTHE: Yes, it is.

NANCY COOPER: So you figured the snake slithered two floors down through the sewage pipe?

LAURIE LAMOTHE: Well, it had to, to get into my toilet because it went down his. And, you know, there's different main pipes in the building. So I just figure it came down the main pipe and there's different pipes for each apartment. And it just happen to come into mine and it doesn't seem to want to leave. And they've tried all they could to get it out. Nothing's worked so far.

NANCY COOPER: What have you tried?

LAURIE LAMOTHE: This SPCA have tried putting warm water down the pipes to see if that would draw him out. And they've tried hot water, that didn't work they've tried a dead rat. And that didn't work at first.

NANCY COOPER: You mean, they put a dead rat down the toilet to get the snake?

LAURIE LAMOTHE: Actually, they took the toilet off and then there was a pipe underneath and they tied the rat onto a hanger and sort of dangled it down there and nothing came about it. So yesterday the SPCA set a trap up my washroom, which consists of putting a rat three feet away from the hole, a dead rat, and a blanket about a foot away and little lid over top of the hole so if the snake would come all the way out, it wouldn't be able to go back again. But we checked on it a few times last night. And then this morning I checked on it and it was still the same. And when I came back out into the living room and a friend of mine showed up at the door and she asked to use the phone. And while she was here, we heard a loud noise in the washroom. And when we went in there, the rat was gone and the lid that they had put over the pipe was off, but the snake wasn't there.

NANCY COOPER: You are one gutsy lady.

LAURIE LAMOTHE: No, I'm not. I'm terrified of it. Even when they were in there, like as soon as I hear a noise, like I would jump.

MARK MORGENSTERN: Why don't you put a screen over the bathroom toilet so it can't get out?

LAURIE LAMOTHE: I've put the lid to the toilet and I've closed the door, but it's...

NANCY COOPER: Have you asked any biologists if it's snakely or humanly possible that a snake can live in those four inch sewage pipes in apartment?

MARK MORGENSTERN: Most pipes are dry most of the time. I mean, part of the problem with snakes is, both boa constrictors and pythons are very good climbers. One of the things that they had suggested to us was flushing ice cubes down the toilet to try to really inconvenience the snake.

NANCY COOPER: Well, Laurie, we hope that maybe this interview might spark some action.

LAURIE LAMOTHE: Yeah, well, I think I just might try the ice cube. It sounds interesting. And it's worth a try like anything right now, I want it out of my toilet.

NANCY COOPER: Well, thanks very much for talking to us both of you.

LAURIE LAMOTHE: Thank you very much.

NANCY COOPER: Goodbye, Mr. Morgenstern.

MARK MORGENSTERN: Bye bye. Good luck.

NANCY COOPER: Bye Mrs. Lamothe.

LAURIE LAMOTHE: Bye bye.

CH: From 1987, As It Happens, guest host Nancy Cooper speaking with Mark Morgenstern, who once had a snake in his toilet and Laura Lamothe who still had a snake in her toilet at the time. Speaking of which, yeah, we are not done with this subject. In 2015, Stephanie Lacsa went to the bathroom in her office in San Diego and luckily she noticed right away that something was wrong. And then that's something became wronger and wronger. Carol spoke with Stephanie Lacsa in 2015.

CO: Stephanie, what made you suspicious that maybe all was not right with the company toilet?

STEPHANIE LACSA: I went over and went to check it out. And the water levels were a little bit higher than usual. And so I just grabbed the plunger and thought, you know, maybe someone clogged it or I did or my business partner earlier that day. So I start plunging. And basically it took a little bit longer than usual to get like the clog or the water to go down. So when it finally does go down through the actual canal, I see like something coming out and I'm thinking, okay, that must've been what was clogged and must have been like the waste that was blocking the toilet. So as I'm standing there, I'm looking a little bit closer. I'm noticing that it's like moving and it's moving towards me. And I notice, like the flicker of a tongue. And that's when I realized, okay, this is a snake.

CO: Oh no. [Chuckles] And where was the snake by the time you realized that was the clog?

STEPHANIE LACSA: In the toilet, and it was still just the head I like didn't stay in there long enough to like, see it actually come out of the toilet. But once I realized, like, how large the snake head was, I like booked it out of the bathroom as fast as I could, closed the door, and ran to the other side of our office.

CO: How big was that snakehead?

STEPHANIE LACSA: So, I mean, it was rather large. When I called my business partner because she went to her lunch break at the time, I was trying to explain to her and the best that I could put it was like aviator sunglasses, like picture like one of the lenses, but bigger. [Chuckles]

CO: So what did you do?

STEPHANIE LACSA: So once I left the bathroom, I shut the door behind me and I ran and I called my business partner, Holly, who was down the street at the gym. And I was like, you have to come back here. You're not going to believe what just happened, a snake came out of the toilet. And she's just like, wait a second. Like, what do you mean? Like what kind of snake? Are you sure it was a snake? I said, yes, it was a snake like I know what a snake looks like. And she goes, okay, well, like what size? Like a pencil or Sharpie size? I'm like, no, this isn't that small. This is a huge snake. The head was like super big. You need to get back here. So she comes back. And she's a little bit less scared of things than I am. But she still doesn't like them either. She cracks open the door and she looks around and the snake was completely out of the toilet at this point and was actually behind the toilet. And she snapped a couple photos and comes running across the office and is like, oh, my God. Like, look at this picture. The snake is huge.

CO: [Chuckles] So the snake was in the bathroom just having its way there. And so what did it look like? What did you see in the pictures?

STEPHANIE LACSA: It was just dark. And we were Googling like, you know, images trying to figure out. First we thought it was a python. Then there were other ones coming out that it might have been like a boa constrictor. But we weren't actually confirmed till animal control got there. And we called our landlord and we had to tell him the story. We didn't know how to handle it. So he's like, let me call animal control services for you. So he did. In about an hour later, they finally came out and the officer went in there and grabbed it. And then she confirmed this is a boa constrictor and she pulled it out of the bucket. It was like five and a half feet long. Just a huge huge snake. I was baffled because the picture I couldn't really see, the ones that Holly took, because, you know, it was behind the toilet. But when she pulled that out, I was like that's insane.

CH: Yeah. You saw the snake before the animal control people took it away.

STEPHANIE LACSA: Yeah. At this point, she brought it out because she closed the door behind her when she got the snake. But we're like, well, how big was the snake? And so she opened up the container for us and pulled it out of the container and outreached both of her arm. I was like five and a half feet. And she was like, I'm thinking, it's someone's pet.

CO: Did she have any trouble actually snaring the snake?

STEPHANIE LACSA: No, she went right in there and within like 30 seconds, she came right back out.

CO: I guess she's done this before.

STEPHANIE LACSA: I guess so. [Laughs]

CO: Does she have any theories as to how you ended up with a snake in your toilet?

STEPHANIE LACSA: So we actually just confirmed that it was a tenant on the fourth floor. It was a pet of a tenant. And it must have travelled down there in a toilet or drain or something and came into ours.

CO: The tenant had not reported a boa constrictor missing?

STEPHANIE LACSA: No, I guess they were out of town or something at the time. We don't know the tenants name or anything, but yeah, we're still trying to, you know, put the pieces back together. But I guess the tenant did come forward and say that that was his.

CO: Have you checked whether the tenant has other snakes up there?

STEPHANIE LACSA: No, I'm kind of like a little bit frightened that if he gets his pet back, that it won't do the same thing if it happened once. So I don't know if I can even rest easy knowing that that's where it came from. [Chuckles]

CO: Now, have you thought about what it would have been if you had gone in there a bit more quickly and just plunked yourself down on the seat without taking a closer look?

STEPHANIE LACSA: Yeah, that actually is what kind of freaked me out a little bit more than anything is because Holly and I were using the bathroom earlier in the day. And the water was taking longer to go down, but it was like flushing like all normal and like the levels were okay. So I'm really glad that the levels were like abnormally high otherwise, I might have just done that.

CO: What a story Stephanie. It is good to talk to you. Thanks.

STEPHANIE LACSA: Thanks. Bye

CH: From 2015, that was Carol speaking with Stephanie Lacsa of San Diego about the boa constrictor that emerged from her toilet at work.

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May 28, 2020 Episode Transcript

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