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The AIH Transcript for February 25, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: Ill at ease. The virus is spreading and so is the misinformation. We talk to a Harvard epidemiologist who tells us the United States should be investing in testing — and inoculating itself against political rhetoric.

CH: Ending period poverty. Scotland is poised to become the first country to make pads and tampons freely available to all women. But the Parliamentarian behind the bill fears there are still hurdles ahead.

CO: Hitting pause. With police patrols and new construction stopped for now, Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs and government officials resume talks. Our guest helped broker the meeting and says that's a huge step in the right direction.

CH: Suspended disbelief. Lynn Beyak has been suspended from the Senate for a second time — after failing to complete anti-racism training she was forced to undergo last time the Red Chamber gave her the boot.

CO: New year resolution. With February 29th fast approaching, our guest says it's high time we turn the page on leap years — and ditch the Gregorian calendar altogether.

CH: And... Built to last. Crews are doing everything they can to topple a Dallas office building. But it just won't come down. And now, people in the city are doing their level best to have the leaning tower designated a World Heritage Site.

Ch: As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that sees why those Texans want a Pisa the action.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: U.S. coronavirus response, blockades: Nathan Cullen, Leaning Tower of Dallas

U.S. coronavirus response

Guest: Eric Ding

CH: The United States has its first case of the novel coronavirus, in which the origin of the infection is unknown. In other words, doctors can't trace it directly back to contact with someone else who was infected. And, according to multiple media reports, the patient wasn't even diagnosed right away, because they didn't meet the strict criteria set out by the federal government for doing a test. But meanwhile, Donald Trump is trying to reassure the public about how his government has been handling the situation.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: We're very, very ready for this — for anything — whether it's going to be a breakout of larger proportions. Or whether or not we're you know we're at that very low level. And we want to keep it that way.

CH: Eric Ding is an epidemiologist and health economist at the Harvard School of Public Health. We reached him in Washington, DC.

CO: Mr. Dings, when you hear the president speak about the kind of virus in the United States, does that sound reassuring?

ERIC DING: I am not fully reassured because America's main problem is right now we have no testing almost whatsoever. We have delayed testing. And America's basically in the dark completely about the epidemic. It's like driving in the middle of night with no headlights.

CO: But we're hearing from the president of your country that the risk to the American people remains very low. He is saying there is nothing inevitable about a U.S. outbreak. And we've done a great job to keep it down to a minimum. What is any of that based on then?

ED: Well, it's not based on anything because you can't have an epidemic without any testing. And so right now, the CDC’s kits were frozen and recalled because of a lab error. And the U.S. — for comparison — has had less than 500 lab tests for the entire country. While South Korea has over 40-thousand tests. And that is what you need to truly capture if there really is an epidemic. There's eight-thousand people being observed under watch in California for suspected coronavirus. So his statements is not based on facts or evidence whatsoever.

CO: And we just for Canadians, the CDC is the Center for Disease Control in the United States, right?

ED: Correct.

CO: Why is the United States so I guess ill-prepared for this?

ED: Yeah, that's a really good question. We should have had more state labs authorizing much faster. Now they have finally authorized different labs to skip a few steps and then develop their own tests — which is a good sign because last week, Hawaii was begging in Japan for their kits because the CDC said we were not going to be able send it to you until March.

CO: Yeah. So you mentioned, well, there's more than eight-thousand people in California that are being monitored for coronavirus. We now have — which is very significant — you have the first case in the United States of someone getting it where it's of an unknown origin. What does that tell you?

ED: This case right now is someone who is completely unrelated to any Chinese travel or the previous cases — so that's very troubled troublesome. You know, for example, in Canada, the E.R. doctor was very sharp in testing that woman who came back from Iran and discovered that she was positive. Right now, if a doctor in the United States wanted a test for someone who is not travelling from China, they could not.

CO: Is that what happened to this one patient who has it from an unknown origin? I understand he was not initially tested?

ED: Yeah. The person was not tested for many, many days. They had demanded for it. Finally, California provided the test. The test did not come from the CDC. And, boom, they discovered that person did have it.

CO: There has just recently I guess within days been a decision to transfer a large sum of money into to an additional sum in order to deal with the outbreak. Is that sufficient?

ED: Yeah. The Trump administration has requested transfer one-point-two five billion, and requested one-point-two five billion. But two-point-one-five-billion is literally a drop in the bucket. The Senate Democratic leader wants eight-point-five-billion. But you cannot lowball this. Every single minute, every single day, every single week, the epidemic grows. And the epidemic knows no bounds of political boundaries, geographic boundaries whatsoever.

CO: What's the level of possibility of a major outbreak of the coronavirus in the United States?

ED: I personally think it's pretty high. Because this virus is inevitable, as CDC Vaccine Director Nancy Messina had said yesterday. It is inevitable. And right now, any CDC and NIH directors are gagged from speaking in public after Trump's announcement. So I think that's also very unfortunate.

CO: What do you mean gagged? Tell us what you know about that?

ED: Well, they say because Trump has appointed Vice President Pence as the coordinating person, all these previous NIH and CDC directors who spoke to the public and gave status reports are now prevented from speaking to the press. All communications must now go to the vice president's office — which, as you know, is a very political office, unlike a public health and scientific body like the NIH or CDC is.

CO: That's just like China.

ED: Yeah. That's very unfortunate. You cannot imagine how upset I am, but that is the world we live in right now. And right now, all I care about, first priority is get the funding for more CDC resources and get the damn tests. [dry laugh]

CO: Another comment on President Trump's part. He said that CNN — The news agency — was trying to make the coronavirus look bad and create a panic. And that he said USA is actually in great shape. He's also said that in terms of the markets are in great shape, nothing to worry about. If the sources of information, if media is discredited as a source of understanding of what this is, what does that do for the ability to get the word out that people need to go and deal with this.

ED: Yeah, it's seeds distrust — especially in the time in which public health is something that matters and touches everyone. And we need the best facts. We need the evidence. We need the best data. We cannot have kind of like China squashing you know cherry picking the numbers, changing things. We need transparency, and we need to trust in the government. And the public needs to be not be like that this is the same as the flu. Because the flu has a point-one per cent mortality. Well, Trump lied in this press conference day has a two per cent mortality — which is not true at all for the flu.

CO: Can you point to anything that you're seeing, anyone who's been appointed or any way that the government is dealing with this that reassures you in any way?

ED: The lab testing, the FDA emergency approval for all of these state labs. And that they will hopefully send out the kits to 90 more state labs and public health labs across the country. For example, the flu lab surveillance system, they're going to test every flu negative sample for the coronavirus as a passive surveillance system in multiple U.S. states and counties. I'm hopeful that that passive testing across the board will pick up the virus and give us good information.

CO: Mr. Ding, it's a very alarming report you're giving us. And I hope that things do get better in the coming weeks. And I appreciate being speaking with you. Thank you.

ED: Yeah. Thank you.

CH: Eric Ding is an epidemiologist and health economist at the Harvard School of Public Health. We reached him in Washington, DC. You can find that interview on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih

[Music: Ambient]

Blockades: Nathan Cullen

Guest: Nathan Cullen

CH: Nathan Cullen hopes he's helped re-kindle the conversation. The former NDP MP has been acting as British Columbia's liaison with the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs who oppose the Coastal GasLink pipeline. When we last spoke with Mr. Cullen, talks had broken down and the RCMP were hauling people from a blockade stopping the development. And you know what followed: weeks of protests and blockades that snarled traffic and scuttled government agendas. But, as we go to air, Nathan Cullen appears to have everyone talking again. The chiefs, the company, and ministers from the federal and provincial governments are set to meet at a hotel in Smithers, British Columbia. We reached Mr. Cullen before he joined them.

CO: Mr. Cullen, we last spoke with you on February the 6^th, when everything seemed to have fallen apart. At that time, you were deeply disappointed. What is it taken to get this meeting today — to get the hereditary chiefs to agree to meet again?

NATHAN CULLEN: To be honest, it took a lot, actually. And fair enough. Because there’s both historical and present-day a great deal of mistrust in these relationships. Not just between the predatory chiefs and the Crown, but between them and RCMP, and them in the pipeline company that's proposing a pipeline through the territory. So in the atmosphere of real mistrust to build towards even sitting down, which might not sound like a big deal to a lot of your listeners, it, in fact, is because it's an expression. And I believe a willingness to try to settle this peacefully — which the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs have said so, well, all the parties have said so from the beginning. So everyone has this declared intention that we can we can settle this, we can solve this. It's not easy. Yet, [scoffing] getting even to the table has certainly been challenging. And the RCMP, the gas company and others have made significant concessions to get us here. The ministers coming to northern B.C. are important, and now the Chiefs have invited them, and the invitation has been accepted. And, hopefully, some progress will be made. It'll be up to those parties now to see a way through.

CO: When we spoke, the RCMP had gone into the camps. They were hauling people away. And you mentioned at that time that First Nations Indigenous peoples interactions with police and with government are fraught with emotion. And that you were incredibly shaken and sad to see that. How important is it to understand how difficult it is to get people to the table given that history.

NC: It's very important. I would argue it's almost impossible to truly walk in someone's shoes. My grandmother didn't have her home burned down, wasn't evicted by Indian agents and with the support of the RCMP in the 1960s. Yet, there is chief sitting at that table who do live that experience. So when someone says, well, just trust the police. It's like, well, one of their first memories might have been that or the police removing them from homes to take them away from their families for years at a time and exposing them to abuse and all the horrors that we know. So I suppose one of the best things to do is just believe them when the hereditary chiefs say we have mistrust. And believe that that mistrust is founded and experience. Now, in order to get a better world and to have a better relationship, it requires that leap of faith with assurances — which we've tried to build — so that the RCMP, for example, have stood down for the interim. And that's the beginning of, hopefully, having a different conversation. The Crown, the federal government, the provincial governments, there have been so much harm done to people over the years that one needs to acknowledge it if one is hoping to have a different future than a past that we've experienced together.

CO: How significant is it now that we have Carolyn Bennett, minister of Crown Indigenous relations sitting down at this table?

NC: Well, I think it's very important. I think what Ottawa brings to this conversation will be critical. I think it was unfair at the time to simply try to characterize this relationship and this conflict as solely in the hands of British Columbia. And clearly, now that sympathetic protests have gone across the country and caused great disruption to Canadians from coast to coast to coast, that it’s become beyond obvious that the federal government will need to play a crucial role in settling this matter. Now, it depends on what they bring. How serious are the commitments? The Wet'suwet'en, again, brought forward the Delgamuukw [case] — this seminal court case to the Supreme Court of Canada, which established much in law, but did not have Canada come forward — or B.C. — to grant rights and title to the Wet'suwet'en over the territory. We now have that opportunity in front of us to affirm that rights and title and then move forward together. I think The Wet'suwet'en have been very clear about their commitment to peacefulness and also to finding resolution. It's not easy. There's a lot of damage that's been done on all sides — and a lot of mistrust, as I mentioned before. Yet, the only reason you need a peace table is because you've had a conflict. It's because there's mistrust. So I'm glad the parties are there. I have confidence in the people who are gathered. I have hope for their efforts and their intelligence. But time will tell. It will be up to those folks at that critical table to see what will happen here. But also obviously have residents across Canada.

CO: But do you think that what's happening now — the meetings that you're having now — could they have happened without the protests that we've seen across the country since our last conversation?

NC: I don't know. Part of me suspects not just because this was an unavoidable conversation now for the federal government. I don't think there was another path really available now that so much conflict and interruption had happened right across the country. That we've had so many bad experiences, Ipperwash and Oka and all of these other places, about the brute application of force when people are protesting. Yet, I've been somewhat of a student of the history of social movements. And they don't happen exclusively with protest. They always require political, legal efforts alongside. So if it were just protests, let's put it that way, I don't think so. If there had been an immediate imposition from the state, from the police, to shut everything down, I don't think any solution that is arrived at through violence is everlasting. And that goes both ways. And so the table is required. The talking is always better than the alternative. And now we're here. So I'm cautiously hopeful.

CO: And in these particular talks, how high are the stakes?

NC: My goodness! I try to have stayed focused on just enabling the table to come together in my small role. I'm the gofer. I run around and just try to get obstacles out of the way, and no more than that. Sometimes I do pull back and watch what's happening across the country, watch the rhetoric as well on both sides. And in quieter moments, I do worry that if we're unable to have a breakthrough of some kind, not just in the next couple of days because that's that would be quite a bit to ask for, but that this launches that peaceful resolution that we all ask for. If we don't do that, what would the consequences be? Not just for this country, but for the Wet'suwet'en. The land that I live on is here, and the people I deeply care about are here. Boy, for everybody, the consequences are significant. I hesitate to really think too much about failure because it's kind of not in my particular nature. I got to think about how this is going to work, and what happens if it fails?

CO: Mr Cullen, we will be watching. Thank you.

NC: Thank you very much, Carol.

CH: Nathan Cullen is the former NDP MP who's acting as British Columbia's liaison with the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs. We reached him in Smithers, B.C.

[Music: Horns!]

Leaning Tower of Dallas

Guest: Nataly Keomoungkhoun

CH: It's a temporary tourist attraction for the architecturally minded — if you're so inclined to see something so inclined. If you take the trip to Dallas in the near future, you can view a leaning tower that wasn't supposed to lean, or be a tower. It's actually what's left of an old office building. Earlier this month, the whole building was supposed to be demolished. But after several attempts to knock it down — it's still up. And it's reputation on social media is growing. Nataly Keomoungkhoun is a reporter with the Dallas Morning News. She's become the beat reporter for the so-called Leaning Tower of Dallas. We reached her in nearby Plano, Texas.

CO: Nataly, first of all, what does the Leaning Tower of Dallas actually look like?

NATALY KEOMOUNGKHOUN: So the tower, it's tilting. And the west side of it is actually cored out. And parts of it are crumbling. And the main part of this is that it's still standing, weeks later after the initial implosion, which is incredible [slight chuckle].

CO: Okay, so this was not the intention. No one was trying to create another tourist attraction in Dallas. This was not intended. [laughing] Why is this still up and leaning weeks after it was supposed to come down?

NK: You're right this definitely was not the intent. There was supposed to be a full implosion. Roads were closed down early Sunday morning on February 16^th. And we watched this implosion happen, and this building, just being as strong as it is, would not go down. The outside of it crumbled. But this core stood standing because there is an elevator shaft. It's made of pure concrete. And it just kind of sank into a basement. So it's kind of like a flower pot, if you think of it. This flower… this tower — which is the flower — is just really buried.

CO: Okay, at this point, you figure, well, we're not experts. But a demolition company comes in and it takes a few whacks with a wrecking ball and brings it down, right?

NK: Since that implosion didn't work. They brought in a crane and wrecking ball, which actually took a few days. And they told the public that the tower was going to be demolished this past Monday between 9:00 a.m. and 12:00 p.m. But when I was out there on the site, they put up the wrecking ball. And it was almost comical how small it was compared to the building. Because they started the demolition, and I watched for like it was about a dozen times that this little wrecking ball hits the side of the building. And nothing was happening [they both chuckle]. And so all these people kind of watched this happen, and it just it was something that you couldn't help but laugh at. It was hilarious.

CO: And everyone's become an instant expert on how to take down this building, including this man, there's one great photo of a guy standing in front of it with a big sign that “use a bigger ball”.

NK: [deep laughter]Yes, that's right. It's actually become the subject of a lot of memes online. Obviously, it is kind of a viral thing. But when I spoke to the demolition company, they said that the reason why the wrecking ball is so small is because there's a regulation that says that a wrecking ball cannot weigh more than half of what the crane weighs.

CO: Okay. So then someone should come up with sign that said “use a stronger crane. And then get a bigger ball”. So I guess everyone has an opinion as to why this building isn't coming down?

NK: Oh, absolutely. But you know, we did speak to the company. I spoke to the company and asked them you know why that is? And it was the same answer. You know they’re within regulations. This is the only way they can do it. And slowly but surely, this building will come down — whether or not it wants to put up a fight — and it is putting up a fight [both laugh].

CO: It's the spirit of the building that's resisting, right?

NK: Um-hmm. Yes.

CO: That she's not coming down, The Affiliated Computer Services Building of Dallas, Texas.

NK: Mm-hmm. That is true.

CO: Now, somebody should actually find who the builder was and hire them if you want a building that is never going to come down — because obviously somebody did a pretty good job at putting this up.

NK: Oh yes. So I actually spoke to a crane operator who has been working on sites and construction sites for the past 40 years. He's in his 60s now. And he was like, you know, I've been working a crane and operating a crane since I was 20. And this is some of the toughest concrete I have ever seen in my life. He was like I don't know what the building regulations were back then, but the concrete is like glue [CO chuckles]. And I've never seen anything like it. And so really it is props to whoever built that [chuckles].

CO: Now, there are, of course, as you mentioned, there are lots of memes. People are taking photos of themselves — as they do in the Leaning Tower of Pisa — of looking as though they're holding the building up. But there's also a petition signed by about 15-hundred people so far to actually to send to UNESCO to have it declared a World Heritage Site.

NK: It really is the spirit of Dallas. I like to think that this tower being up is kind of a, quote/unquote, Dallas thing. It is the most Dallas thing that I've ever seen. This building is kind of like us Dallasites and like us Texans. We are tough. We are strong. We won’t go down without a fight. And, yeah, like I said, to me, it is the most Dallas thing to have ever been put up. And it was an accident, of course [laughing]

CO: But it's going to live on in Dallas because I understand Legoland in Dallas has made their own Leaning Tower of Dallas [laughing]. And there's no a Lego version of the museum, right?

NK: Yes. Yeah. So we went to go look at this little Lego model that was put together of the Leaning Tower. And, yesterday, the Legoland actually did a livestream on their Facebook of them, quote/unquote, demolishing their version. And it was two hours. And every 15 minutes, they were taking away a few Legos off of the building, as if they were demolishing it at the same rate as the real tower. Because the real tower is actually going to take maybe several days or several weeks to be taken down, and that Lego tower is doing the same thing — so just very slowly but surely coming down [both laugh].

CO: Nataly, it's great fun to talk to you. Thank you.

NK: Thank you so much for having me.

CO: Bye.

NK: Bye.

CH: Nataly Keomoungkhoun is a reporter for the Dallas Morning News. She's been covering the now famous "Leaning Tower of Dallas". She's in Plano, Texas. And you can find more on that story on the As It Happens website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Jazz]

Part two: Scotland sanitary products, no leap year calendar

Scotland sanitary products

Guest: Monica Lennon

CH: Very soon, tampons and pads could be free for all women in Scotland. A bill that would see the Scottish government pay to stock the supplies in public places — like community centres and pharmacies — has passed an initial vote in Parliament. If it goes ahead, it would make Scotland the first jurisdiction in the world to make sanitary products freely available. But there still may be some hurdles to overcome. Monica Lennon is a Member of the Scottish Parliament for the Labour Party. She put the bill forward. We reached her in Edinburgh.

CO: Ms Lennon, why do you want the Scottish Government to give away free pads and tampons?

MONICA LENNON: Well, this is not about a giveaway. This is about creating free universal access to period products — which includes tampons, pads and reusable options. It's an issue in Scotland because we know that period poverty exists. Too many women in ghettos are not able to afford period products when they need them. And many have used alternatives, which are not safe or hygienic. So in the last couple of years, in Scotland, we've rolled out a number of initiatives. So we now have free period products in every school, college and university. So this bill would make sure that that becomes the law. Because right now, it's a policy, so we want that to continue. But beyond that, we want to make sure for people who are not in school, who are not in education that they access free period products also.

CO: I mean, so it's already been for a couple of years now you've had this policy for schools, for colleges and universities. How popular has it been so far?

ML: It's been very well-received. I would say it is very popular. People have used the scheme, benefited from it, and we've had good feedback that in terms of wellbeing and inclusion and making sure young people participate in sport. The biggest trade union for teachers in Scotland really supports it because up until the last couple of years, teachers were having to share their own tampons and pads with young people. So they told us it was an issue. So it's amazing how quickly people have got used to this in Scotland. It’s become really normal. Of course, toilet roll, toilet paper and hand towels are already in public bathrooms. So why not period products?

CO: Right. Now, It's going to cost though about 31-million dollars U.S. — 24-million pounds — and so you say that you're trying to address the issue of poverty, people who cannot afford them. So was it not possible to try and make it available to those who can't afford them without making it universal?

ML: So in 2016, when I was first elected to the Scottish Parliament, I investigated what period poverty is and who that affects. And we heard about women in ghettos who were forced to go to food banks and homeless shelters to get period products. And they told us that they felt really embarrassed and really ashamed. And the Scottish government took that on board, and they ran a pilot scheme in Aberdeen. And that was really well-received. But what women told the government was that they didn't want to be tested or asked to lots of personal questions about their income or how many products they need and how heavy their period is? How long their period lasts? So we've come up with a system which we believe is free and universal to access. But in reality, most women have said they would only use it if it really had to use it. And already, in Scotland, we have a similar public health approach to free condoms, which are available to anyone regardless of income. And the uptake of that is very modest. So we see that being seen for this.

CO: I know there was opposition to this proposal in Scotland. People who said it would be open to abuse if you're giving away free period products. And they said that people would take large quantities and try and resell them. So was there a concern that there would be some sort of I don’t know a black market for cross-border tampons?

ML: Yeah, it was one of the initial concerns raised by the Scottish Government. And I suppose ministers have to be fiscally-responsible and think about different scenarios and think about risk. But, in the end, that concern has been sort of pushed aside. And actually, it was widely ridiculed. There was a concern that people might come over the border from England and take free products from Scotland and sell them at a discounted rate. Sort of like you know an underground market for tampons and pads. But actually, the UK government — even though Prime Minister Boris Johnson is not regarded as a feminist icon — but in England, they also now have free period products in schools and colleges. And there's a task force to look at period poverty. So actually, across the UK, and Scotland, England and Wales, we're seeing a real change, a real appetite for this. It's really an issue of human dignity. It's been very well-received. It has been some resistance at times, but the Scottish parliament came together — Members of the Scottish Parliament from all of the parties — to back the bill at the first important stage. And Nicola Sturgeon — the first minister — is on record saying that you know everyone should have the right to access these products. Period products are not luxury items; they aren't essential. And I agree with the first minister on that point.

CO: And just you point out that it is the initial vote in parliament. How confident are you that the bill will become the law?

ML: I feel more confident after this week's debate and votes. It's been a journey for people. So I understand that some MSPs have had questions about the practicalities, about the cost, but they also recognize there’s a cost of not doing this. We talked about women who have experienced toxic shock syndrome. People who have had to keep the workplace because they had blood on their clothing, on their uniform, because they couldn't get products in the workplace. So people realize that that is a benefit to doing this. A little benefit to a health service as well. So I’ll go back to the chamber later this year. And I hope by the end of 2020, the period products Scotland Bill will have passed, and will become law. And you know maybe in ten, 20 years’ time, we’ll wonder what all the fuss was about?

CO: [chuckles] Well, you will be the first jurisdiction to do this where a lot of countries are still trying to get around to cutting the sales tax on sanitary products, so well done.

ML: Thank you. Thank you very much.

CO: All right. Take care. Bye-bye.

ML: Thank you. Bye.

CH: Monica Lennon is a Member of the Scottish Parliament. She was in Edinburgh. And you can find more on this story on the As It Happens website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Industrial]

Beyak reaction

CH: Senator Lynn Beyak's apology was too little, too late. For the second time, the Senate suspended her for the remainder of the parliamentary session. She was asked to complete anti-racism training, and failed to do so. The move comes just days after the Ontario Senator delivered an apology for posting letters to her Senate website that included racist language about Indigenous people. She also said she regretted the harm she caused by describing residential schools in positive terms. Garnet Angeconeb is a residential school survivor. He's met with Senator Beyak in the past. When CBC Thunder Bay called him up yesterday, he had just learned of the Senator's apology. Here's how he reacted.

SOUNDCLIP

GARNET ANGECONEB: To tell you the honest truth, I would have to say that I would take my time to reflect on what she has said. It has taken me off guard. I couldn't help but think about some of the harm that she has done in the last few years. For example, as a survivor, one of the things that we did is, we had a meeting with her. She did not listen. And meanwhile, there were some of us in the room who tried to share our real lived experiences of abuse in residential schools. And in some ways, it was a re-victimization. It did open up old wounds. And for her leave that room and to continue on with some of the things she said afterwards, I have to really, really seriously think about and reflect on what I just heard her say in the Red Chamber. And so I'm very cautious about saying that I will accept her apology. You know, sometimes, like in residential school, after I left, there was always a feeling of I don't trust anybody because of what happened. And in some ways, I do carry those feelings today. And that's why I say let's see what happens going forward in the days and weeks to come.

CH: That was residential school survivor Garnet Angeconeb speaking to CBC Thunder Bay yesterday, before the Senate suspended Lynn Beyak.

[Music: Folksy guitar]

No leap year calendar

Guest: Steve Hanke

CH: If your birthday's on February 29th, you can legitimately get the staff at a chain restaurant to sing to you this year. That extra day, of course, only appears on the calendar every four years, on a leap year. But if it were up to two John Hopkins University professors, 2020 would be the very last. And while they're at it, they're proposing we get rid of the Gregorian calendars we use to keep track of every other day too. They've created what they call a permanent calendar. It's 364 days long. And each year always begins on Monday, January 1st. Steve Hanke is an economist at John Hopkins University who co-created the Hanke-Henry permanent calendar with astronomy professor Richard Conn Henry. We reached Professor Hanke in Baltimore.

CO: Professor Hankie, what's your problem with the Gregorian calendar?

STEVE HANKE: Well, the main problem with the Gregorian calendar, it's a herky-jerky affair — in which every year, you have to make up a new annual schedule for the school, for the sporting events, for all the holidays. They don't fall on the same day.

CO: And what's wrong with that?

SH: Well, it wastes a tremendous amount of time. And in simple terms, you also have to buy a new calendar every year.

CO: [laughing] Now, the reason we're talking to you right now is because I guess I don't know maybe the purpose or the side effect of this would be that we would not have a February 29th ever again, right?

SH: No, we never would. We would have four quarters in the year. And each one of those quarters would have three months. The first two months of the quarter would have 30 days. And the last month would have 31 days. So each quarter, 91 days, multiplied by four, you get 364 days a year. And then instead of having a leap year where you add an extra day, as we're doing this year to February, and have we have 29 days, we would add an extra week at the end of December every five or six years.

CO: Okay. And that next week is because, in fact, it takes 365-point-two-four days to get the Earth to orbit around the sun. And then so you have to compensate for that, right?

SH: That's the compensation factor.

CO: Which is why we have February 29th.

SH: You got it.

CO: But would we still have seven days a week?

SH: Yes, we would have seven days a week. This is a critical part of our calendar. The fourth commandment we rigidly uphold and have a seven-day cycle celebrating the Sabbath on the seventh day. Now, the permanent calendars, there are other permanent calendar is around. But they all muck around with the fourth commandment and the seven-day cycle.

CO: And so now is there any personal reason why you and your colleague, Richard Conn Henry, want to change the calendar?

SH: Well, the big thing is it really turns on economics. And that is it's a lot simpler to use the Hanke-Henry permanent calendar — because, in fact, every day does fall on the same day every year forever. And it's just simplicity and use. You could still retain the Gregorian calendar that actually from a scientific point of view is slightly more accurate than the Hanke-Henry permanent calendar. But you know that's been around since Pope Gregory 1582. Before that, we had the Julian calendar. And that's used by some people. We've got the lunar calendar used by the Chinese.

CO: I mean, just on that. I mean, so the lunar calendar is interesting. I mean, we know that Easter is always on a Sunday. And Good Friday is always on a Friday because it is dictated by the moon. Ramadan is part of the Islamic calendar. That's a lunar calendar for them. So why don't we follow that and go on the moon cycle instead of the Hanke-Henry primary calendar?

SH: Well, again, the lunar calendar also has these herk-jerky aspects to it that the permanent calendar eliminates. But in no way would we be eliminating the lunar calendar. People can use it for whatever celebrations they want. And we're hoping, by the way, that Trump will replace Pope Gregory and Julius Caesar, and this thing’ll end up being not a Hanke-Henry permanent calendar, but a Trump permanent calendar.

CO: [deep laughter] That will have a big appeal for a lot of people [laughing].

SH: Well, Trump, as it turns out, he's the perfect guy for this because he understands branding. And, I mean, just think of it this way, a Trump permanent calendar would make the Trump Towers look like peanuts. You know, it would be lasting forever. All he'd have to do is sign an executive order — which Dick Henry and I have drafted — and it's done.

CO: [chuckling] So you think that Donald Trump will sign this because he would like to follow in the footsteps of Julius Caesar and Pope Gregory?

SH: Yeah. I mean, he will be the next Julius Caesar. If Dick Henry, by the way, who was born and raised in Canada, and I had 30 minutes with Trump in the Oval Office, we’re convinced that it would be a done deal.

CO: Right. Now, so the question though, I mean, when it comes to birthdays, one's birthday would always be on the same day under the Trump permanent calendar, would it not?

SH: Right. Yes, that's correct.

CO: So but, I mean, it's okay if your birthday ends up being every year on a Friday or Saturday. But who wants a permanent Wednesday birthday?

SH: Well, look at the Queen of England. The Queen of England, she doesn't celebrate her birthday on her actual birthday. You can celebrate your birthday on any…. you pick the date. I mean, if you just go to the Gregorian and stick with that.

CO: All right. So when might this happen? When are we going to see the Hanke-Henry President Trump permanent calendar? I mean, you must have a schedule for this?

SH: Well, yeah. This would be 2021, January 4^th, which would be a Monday on the Gregorian.

CO: And that's the date?

SH: Yeah, that's it.

CO: All right. I'll put that in my calendar.

SH: Which one?

CO: [laughing] I'm not telling you.

SH: [laughing] I'll call you next year, [CO laughs] around Christmas time.

CO: Yeah, whatever date that is. I guess always on a Monday.

SH: Yeah it is always. Isn't that just beautiful? Monday the 25th of December on the Hanke-Henry permanent calendar — which will become the Trump permanent calendar forever.

CO: Forever and ever. Yikes. All right, Professor Hanke, good to talk to you.

SH: Great to speak with you.

CO: [laughing] Bye.

SH: Stay warm.

CO: You too. Bye-bye

SH: Bye.

CH: [sigh] Steve Hanke is an economics professor at John Hopkins University. We reached him in Baltimore.

[Music: Indie rock]

FOA: Baltimore mayor

CH: It started with a children's book. It did not end with a "happily ever after". Today, former Baltimore mayor Catherine Pugh was sentenced to three years in prison, for a children's book scam that saw money being funneled into her personal accounts and campaign. Last November, Ms. Pugh pleaded guilty to four counts of conspiracy and tax evasion. The sentence comes months after Ms. Pugh resigned last May, after authorities investigated sales of her self-published "Healthy Holly" children's books. Luke Broadwater is a Baltimore Sun reporter who broke the story. He spoke with Carol last November, after Catherine Pugh pleaded guilty in court.

SOUNDCLIP

LUKE BROADWATER: Well, it was a monumental day for the city of Baltimore and for me as a reporter. You know we have been pursuing this story of a suspected corruption for months. And to see her walk into the court room, a packed courtroom, with a solemn and stoic expression on her face and then to walk out on the verge of tears was a day I'll never forget.

CO: So she's pleaded guilty to four counts of conspiracy and tax evasion. But this is all around children's books. I mean, a self-published children's book that she has called "Healthy Holly." So first of all, tell us what is "Healthy Holly?"

LB: So Healthy Holly is a character that the mayor of Baltimore made up. In her view, it was children's books to encourage kids to live a healthy lifestyle. Now, the problem with these books is -- well there are several problems, but one of them is the books are self-published, and they frankly have a lot of grammatical and spelling errors in them. And so when the mayor took them around to the school system and other places to try to get them to buy the books, she was told that they were really at a level that could be used for instruction because of their low grammatical quality.

CO: And she was doing this while she was the mayor of Baltimore?

LB: First as a state senator and then as a mayor. So she started this side business called "Healthy Holly LLC." She did it very quietly and frankly didn't sell it to anybody in the public. What she was able to successfully do is use her leverage from her political office -- first as a state senator on a powerful committee, and then as the mayor of Baltimore, to convince prominent non-profits and business people in the area to contribute hundreds of thousands of dollars to make these books.

CO: Okay. So how was it fraud that she was selling them the books? What was wrong with that?

LB: Well, there are a number of things. One, she didn't actually do a lot of the books. There were over a 120,000 books that she had people buy and she only ended up printing 60,000 of them. And then of the 60,000 she double sold many of those. She would promise one book to one organization, one batch of books, and then would actually then sell that same batch of books again to another organization. And what this whole thing exposed was how all these non-profits and businesses didn't actually care what was in the books, whether what their educational value was, didn't actually care whether they were giving in the hands of children. They just wanted to make the mayor happy. And so once she saw that that was the case, the allegation is that she took advantage of that. And that's what she pleaded guilty to.

CH: That was Luke Broadwater, a Baltimore Sun political reporter, speaking with Carol last November. Earlier today, former Baltimore Mayor Catherine Pugh was sentenced to three years in prison for conspiracy and tax evasion.

[Music: Ambient]

Part three: India Internet shutdown, Calgary “Barley Belt”

Coronavirus: Japanese hospital

CH: For two weeks, 256 Canadians were quarantined aboard the Diamond Princess cruise ship off the coast of Japan. And for dozens of them, that was just the start of their isolation. Forty-three Canadians on the cruise liner tested positive for COVID-19, and are being treated at more than 20 different hospitals in Japan. But they aren't completely on their own. A small team of Canadian Red Cross workers flew over with some comforts from home — and also brought some emotional support. Jean-Pierre Taschereau is leading that team. This morning, he spoke to the CBC's Robyn Breshnahan about how they're helping.

SOUNDCLIP

ROBYN BRESHNAHAN: Presumably, many of these people are in quarantined areas of hospitals. I mean, how are you actually physically reaching them?

JEAN-PIERRE TASCHEREAU: They're distributed over 20 facilities in a broad perimeter. I mean, the first day I was here, it took me two hours to travel north of Tokyo. And one of my team members had to ride for hours on the bullet train to go down to another facility. So it's made it a bit complicated logistically.

RB: But I understand even just the communication part has been a bit tricky. Apparently, one of your staff members had to climb on to a roof to communicate with a patient [JPT chuckles]. Tell us about this?

JPT: Yeah. Well, she had to climb on a roof to get down to the other side of a wall where there was a window then she could she could still see the patient. So they were having a phone conversation, but they could see each other across from the window. And she was on the outside of the hospital while the patient was inside her room. In other hospitals, they have actually video phones capacity. So that's how we've been able to communicate. But for most part, we've been able to establish contact by arranging for the delivery of mobile phone through hospital personnel. And then once those communication lines are open, this is how we stay in touch.

RB: I mean, you've just painted such a visual picture there of your staff member climbing down to look at this person through a window. Why do you think a moment like that is so important?

JPT: One person told me that just the fact to be able to talk about the weather in Ottawa in French you know was just meant the world to them. Because they've been isolated. It started with a quarantine aboard the ship. Then they were transferred to a Japanese facility. Most of the hospital personnel, even though they're super nice and dedicated, they don't speak English — less even so French. So by being able to talk, it kind of brings a sense of a reminder of what home is there, and that it's waiting for them, you know?

CH: Jean-Pierre Taschereau speaking to Ottawa Morning host Robyn Breshnahan from Tokyo. He and a team of Canadian Red Cross workers are in Japan to support the 43 Canadians who tested positive for the coronavirus, and are hospitalized.

[Music: Sombre]

India Internet shutdown

Guest: Sajjad Haider

CH: As of March, it will be seven months since the Indian government put Kashmir on an internet lockdown. It began last August, when Prime Minister Narendra Modi's government announced it was revoking Article 370 of India's constitution. For 70 years, that provision had given autonomy to the Muslim-majority state of Jammu and Kashmir. Authorities say the shutdown was required for public security. In January, there was some hope — when the Indian government restored low-speed internet in Kashmir. But it only allowed access to around 300 government-approved sites. So the shutdown persists — and includes social media — which is a major a challenge for Sajjad Haider. He is the editor of the Kashmir Observer, and he has been struggling to publish his paper. We reached him today in Bangalore.

CO: Sajjad, as we just mentioned in the introduction, we are talking to you in Bangalore today. If you are at home in Srinagar, in Kashmir, would we be able to reach you on WhatsApp?

SAJJAD HAIDER: Absolutely not. Kashmiri is out of bounds. We have no Internet access. We do have Internet access, but it's low-speed; 2G. But there's no social media, no WhatsApp, no Twitter, no Facebook.

CO: How do you run a newspaper? How do you run a news organization in this day and age without any access — any decent access — to Internet?

SH: Well it's a quite difficult challenge. I mean, this is unprecedented. Perhaps anywhere in the world, we don't have precedents where we have seen media functioning without Internet in this age and time. And here, we have in Kashmir, it's the longest you know Internet shutdown in history. It's almost on a seventh month.

CO: Can you possibly explain to us what the Indian government is attempting to accomplish by shutting Kashmir off from the Internet?

SH: Well, to be fair to Indian government, I mean, the decision it took it was a huge decision. I mean, and it definitely had massive and widespread implications, you know? So any government at that time would how done something similar because they had taken that decision, which had potential to incite and you know provoke massive backlash. So since the Internet is a medium where people communicate. So I think that was sort of a good way of you know curtailing or pre-empting the move of you know any mobilization in a way.

CO: And this is, well, a series of things. But it's been going on for decades — this dispute between India and Pakistan, and also within Kashmir itself about independence or joining Pakistan. This is this is an age-old issue. And then the development though was the Indian government's decision to end the semi-autonomous nature of Kashmir. Is that what provoked this cut off of communication?

SH: Absolutely. This is actually, I mean, there was a time when previous governments — including the BJP once — had offered more autonomy to Kashmir in order to you know subdue movement for what has been described as a movement for self-determination. And then this new government — which under Narendra Modi came, which is a bit more hardline than the previous one — which gave a little autonomy to Kashmir.

CO: This decision, you sound somewhat sympathetic to Prime Minister Narendra Modi, and the decision to at the beginning at least to shut things down, to take control, to try to avoid any more incitement. What is your problem with it then? What is it that you're trying to get changed now?

SH: You can't say that I am sympathetic. I'm not sympathetic. I mean right you know we're expecting a backlash. And which may by these measures sort of curved. And you know that anger and frustration and whatever you call, I mean, that is there. They have not given it the proper thought, perhaps. I mean, how long it will take? Because perhaps they thought that there'd be a backlash, and they will be able to contain it in a month or so. But because there was no backlash, because they did you know impose such stringent curbs, so there was no backlash. So that people's anger remains there.

CO: Okay. So you’re wanting them to restore the civil liberties and the access to Internet immediately. That's what your demand is?

SH: Yeah, well this is been you know that including the opposition parties in India that they should rigidly restore all the civil liberties, including the Supreme Court of India, it described the Internet as fundamental right — and so that cannot be denied to people for an indefinite period.

CO: Can you just give us a sense of how difficult it is not just for your paper and an ability to communicate with your readers, but what effect is it having in general on Kashmir to be without Internet for all these months?

SH: I don't think we are doing journalism anymore in Kashmir. Because you know we have limited access to Internet. It's pretty difficult for our reporters to file stories. This is you know becoming a day-by-day you know very cumbersome exercise.

CO: At what point, any sense as to when the Indian government might restore your access to the Internet?

SH: They did, I mean you know give us an option to sign a bond — sort of an undertaking — that if they restore certain you know degree of Internet service. But we need to give an undertaking that we will not be using social media, or we will not be using the sites other than the whitelisted ones — which are not more than thousand which are accessible.

CO: Is there any chance that you might decide just to shut down your news agency altogether?

SH: Well, many of them have already shut down. And many are just, I mean, curtailing their operations. We have laid off our staff — most of our staff. And you know the circulation has come down. It's becoming really difficult. Because, on the one hand, there are expectations from the people because Kashmir perhaps is the only place where the dependence of people is totally onto local newspapers because we don't have satellite channels. So it is becoming very difficult for us to sustain and continue. But we are trying our best. In fact, whatever little means we have.

CO: Sajjad, we'll have to leave it there. And I hope things improve for you. This sounds like a very difficult way to run a business. But I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

SH: Thank you.

CH: Sajjad Haider is the editor of the Kashmir Observer. We reached him today in Bangalore.

[Music: Horns!]

God Save the Queen

CH: Earlier this week, NDP MPP Suze Morrison and two other Indigenous MPPs refused to enter the Ontario legislature while "God Save the Queen" was being sung. It's a new rule at Queen's Park, instituted by the Ford government: once a month, everyone has to sing the royal anthem along with the national anthem, before Question Period. But Ms Morrison said singing the song in provincial parliament is a "step back" when it comes to reconciliation with Indigenous communities. Government House Leader Paul Calendra brought the idea to chamber months ago. He has a slightly different view of the anthem's significance. He spoke to Ottawa Morning's Robyn Bresnahan about why he would continue to sing “God Save the Queen”.

SOUNDCLIP

RB: Suze Morrison, to her main point, told us that it's a celebration of colonization. Can you understand her point of view?

PAUL CALENDRA: Yeah, I've said, listen, I appreciate that they have a different feeling on it. And that they are going to express that dissatisfaction by not entering the chamber when it is being sung.

RB: Well, another NDP MP who you just mentioned, Sol Mamakwa, he said that he sees this as the revival of “God Save the Queen” in this House as a step backwards — a shift from modern reconciliation to a past that celebrated the colonialism that sought the destruction of cultures, languages and communities. Why don’t you think that that is a perspective that ought to be respected?

PC: Well, look, obviously reconciliation is very important — even in the CBC itself reported back in 2012 about the monarch, Queen Elizabeth’s, special relationship with our First Nations. I believe that she has shown, over her 68 years of service to Canada, she was the initial person to person to show reconciliation towards our First Nations. I can't disagree with that with Sol that past monarchs might not have been as open as has Queen Elizabeth. But she, over 68 years, has proven that if you do work at it, and that it's not something reconciliation that we say today and it's done tomorrow, it will take a long period of time. But, as I said, I believe that Queen Elizabeth has shown that spirit of reconciliation. She's worked at it for over 68 years. And this is the singing of one of Canada's two official anthems, and now both official anthems. And is a celebration of her majesty’s 68 years of service to the people of Canada.

CH: That's Ontario Government House Leader Paul Calandra, speaking with Ottawa Morning's Robyn Bresnahan.

[Music: Folksy music]

FOA: David Smith

CH: David Smith dedicated nearly his entire life to Canadian politics. He served as a political staffer, a member of parliament and a cabinet minister. And he was a brilliant strategist — credited as the mastermind behind Jean Chretien's election campaigns, including his near-complete sweep of Ontario in 1993. In 2002, Mr. Smith got a new title, becoming the Honourable Senator David Smith. And despite being a longtime Liberal, he was well respected from all sides of the Red Chamber until his retirement in 2016. David Smith died yesterday. He was 78. Along his political accomplishments, Mr Smith is being remembered by many as a man who had a story for everything. Including the trouble he ran into while trying to board flights. From our archives, here is David Smith speaking to Carol in May 2012 about being hassled at the airport — over and over again — all because of his all-too-common name.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Senator Smith, what happened to you on the way to Ottawa this week?

DAVID SMITH: Well, I almost missed my flight because they said, oh, well, we've got to phone security. We've got to phone security. And I think they had trouble getting through. And it’d gone on for about 15 minutes. And then I had to catch the boat to get over to the island airport. And she says, well, you'll have to go and do it over on the other side. So I did it again. But you know I got my plane by about one minute. But this was about the 20th time that this has happened, and it's you know it's very frustrating.

CO: This was you were leaving Toronto Island Airport for Ottawa?

DS: Yeah, for Ottawa. I wasn't crossing the border.

CO: And where were you heading? What were you going to do in Ottawa that day?

DS: Well, ironically, going to the Anti-Terrorism Committee — which I'm on — And I've actually chaired. And we've been reviewing a couple of things that are kind of related a bit to this. Now, usually, it deals with people crossing borders. But like, I mean, if some terrorist wants to get on a plane, it doesn't really matter whether he's crossing the border or not. And you know so what's been happening for some months now is you know they'll say we have to make a call. And some of them are people who you know I've seen their faces and got to know them a bit for years because I'm flying all the time. And they say we know who you are. We just have to do this. And then they’ll swing their chair around, and they’ll huddle down and speak very quietly. And then finally, they'll say it's okay, we can issue the ticket, but you know?

CO: What’s the problem? Are you or have you ever been a threat to airplane safety?

DS: No, no, of course not [both laugh]. But, you know, the name David is fairly common, and Smith is fairly common. And obviously, there's some rascal who has this name. And you know they identified somebody in the article that was in the Globe & Mail. You know but it was like 21. Well, I'm 70. I usually wear a pinstripe suit and don't look like that fella.

CH: From our archives, that was retired Senator David Smith speaking to Carol in May 2012. Mr. Smith died yesterday. He was 78.

[Music: Airy instrumental]

Calgary “Barley Belt”

Guest: Dave Ronneberg

CH: In Calgary's southeast, there's an industrial area that has seen a lot of change in recent years. Craft breweries have been popping up in the neighbourhood — and it has become known as the "Barley Belt." But there's tension there, after one brewery — called Banded Peak — was purchased by Labatt. Dave Ronneberg is a founder of another brewery in the area — The Establishment Brewing Company. That's where we reached him.

CO: Dave, what exactly is the “Barley Belt”?

DAVE RONNEBERG: The “Barley Belt” is kind of a community-level marketing group that was created by a few breweries in close proximity to one another in Calgary — just to draw some attention to the craft beverage scene that's happening, and all the growth that's been occurring in Alberta.

CO: Uh-huh: And so what do people do? Is that a place where people just go because they want to taste various kinds of beer?

DR: Each province is different, but in Calgary, or in Alberta, breweries can have a tap room where people can come and try the beer. Sometimes there's some food involved. So there's a little bit of a you know beer enthusiast scene where people can move around between the breweries in the same day because they're so close to one another. And there's a lot of people riding their bikes through here. It's close to the pathway system in Calgary. And it's very close to the public transportation train.

CO: Nice! And so how do you identify? Is there a “Barley Belt” it’s an actual trademark, isn't it?

DR: Yeah, the “Barley Belt” name was just chosen to kind of represent the geographic area to draw some attention to it. It has been trademarked. The trademark application was submitted maybe two years ago. Banded Peak submitted the trademark application on behalf of the “Barley Belt” breweries — just so that they sort of protect the name for using on social media and things like that.

CO: Okay, so why does it matter that Labatts has purchased Banded Peak Brewing — which is one of these craft breweries? It's part of this “Barley Belt”.

DR: Well, we work quite closely together in marketing efforts to bring some attention to us because we're small and pretty unknown. And we don't have a lot of marketing resources. So this is one of the effective means we can use to bring some attention to ourselves. I only speak for my brewery, The Establishment Brewing Company here. But we don't really feel comfortable working in collaboration with a large company like Labatt, owned by AB InBev, because we feel that there's a bit of a history there with AB InBev purchasing breweries and changing them from you know locally-owned small producers, who are really focused on making the best beverages possible in a pretty challenging industry. And we don't really feel that our values and goals align with the values and goals of a large corporation.

CO: But you're not saying that Banded Peak shouldn't be selling its beer in the area. That's not your claim, is it?

DR: No, no, no. We don't have any ill-will against Banded Peak. It's fine that they're operating in the area. Nobody's trying to kick them out.

CO: So the issue comes down to “Barley Belt”. What changes since Lebatts has purchased this brewery?

DR: It's not so much about the name. It's about just the association with a large corporation that's using some sort of grassroots community-level marketing stuff to promote themselves. And we're not interested in collaborating with you know one of the biggest beer companies in the world.

CO: Okay. But to trademark — the “Barley Belt” trademark — is actually part of the purchase that Lebatt has made, is that right?

DR: That's correct, yes. You know, it is included in the sale. And the Barley Belt Group of Breweries has asked them to transfer the ownership of that trademark back to us. And we'll see if that happens or not.

CO: It seems that they have agreed to that, is that not the case?

DR: They agreed initially because we had agreed to discuss the possibility of continuing forward as a group with Banded Peak included. But since then, a lot of breweries have said they don't want to work with Banded Peak in a group like that. And so if there's a condition that they're involved, then we're not willing to take that trademark back.

CO: Right. Because Banded Peak has in a statement that we got said that Lebatt had immediately offered to take steps to transfer ownership of the trademark to the group after the sale. And Banded Peak has said it's committed to working with other “Barley Belt” breweries to create a Barley Belt Association. So the issue is that Banded Peak wants to be part of that. Is that what's the problem?

DR: I believe they still want to be a part of that, yes. But if a majority of the other breweries in the group don't want them to be involved, then it's probably not going to happen.

CO: All right. So because they've also said, Banded Peak has said, that once created, Banded Peak and Lebatt would transfer ownership of the trademark and willingly relinquish all rights to the association. So does that answer your concerns?

DR: Well, we'd have to sort out the details of that I guess. But you know I'm not going to speak on behalf of the breweries in the “Barley Belt” because we make these decisions together. If they want to transfer the trademark back to The Barley Belt Group, then we'd happily take it. But if they don't, then we'll have to find another way forward.

CO: If Lebatt ever approached your company and made an offer, would you turn it down?

DR: Well, it would obviously depend what the offer was. It's hard to speculate what the conditions of that would be.

CO: But you could see yourself selling out to “Big Beer”?

DR: Potentially, yes.

CO: Then I don’t understand why you're so critical of this other company that's done what you wouldn't have a problem doing?

DR: I haven't been critical of them. I'm just saying that we don't want to work next to them if they're owned by a multinational.

CO: Right. But you'd sell to a multinational?

DR: If they wanted to purchase the company, sure.

CO: Okay. Do you think that this “Barley Belt” thing will continue? Do you think that flag will go back up again?

DR: I think that we'll continue to market ourselves in the way that we have. I don't know if it'll be under the name the “Barley Belt”? But we'll have to see.

CO: All right. Dave, we’ll leave it there. Thank you.

DR: You're welcome.

CH: That was Dave Ronneberg of The Establishment Brewing Company in Calgary. That's where we reached him.

[Music: Piano]

Elvis Fest no more

CH: After 25 years, every hotel in Collingwood, Ontario is a heartbreak hotel. And if they mailed out invitations to this year's event, they're coming back "return to sender". Because the town's once-enormous Elvis Festival is leaving all the buildings. In 1995, Billy Cann launched what was then called The Canadian National Elvis Tribute and Convention — which might have seemed self-serving, given that Mr. Cann was an Elvis impersonator himself. But what would eventually be called the Collingwood Elvis Festival became a major annual event — and the biggest Elvis-related gathering on Earth. In 2014, it even managed to land the King's former wife, Priscilla Presley herself. Here's part of her speech to the crowd that year.

SOUNDCLIP

PRISCILLA PRESLEY: If Elvis were alive today, trust me, he would never, ever believe that after three decades, here you are, still with him, and still supporting him in every way. And not only him, but introducing him to your children, and their children. He just wouldn't have believed it.

CH: But now, if there's a jail in Collingwood, nobody in the whole cell block will be dancing to the jailhouse rock. After several years of declining attendance, last year, Collingwood council decided the town itself would no longer run the festival. And this year, several private groups put forward proposals to keep it running — but none were viable. So: no Elvis Fest in 2020. Whether or not the town has ever caught a rabbit, it is not longer a friend of Elvis's — which is a sad development for fans of the King, for local businesses, and presumably for local hairdressers. That means we have an unfortunate response to this ultimatum from Mr. Presley. It's...never.

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February 27, 2020 episode transcript

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