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The AIH Transcript for October 3, 2019

Hosts: Nil Koksal and Karen Gordon

Prologue

NIL KOKSAL: Hello I'm Nil Koksal, sitting in for Carol Off.

KAREN GORDON: Good evening. I'm Karen Gordon. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

KG: Tonight...

NK: Justice for what the doctor ordered. A Virginia doctor is going to prison for 40 years for illegally prescribing hundreds of thousands of doses of opioids -- and an investigator hopes the rest of the medical community is paying attention.

KG: The land of milk and money. The U.S. Agriculture Secretary says American dairy farmers will either get rich or get crushed -- and given the state of their struggling industry they're struggling to understand his thoughtlessness.

NK: Bubbling under. Environmental advocates are raising concerns about a device on ships that takes pollutants out of exhaust fumes which would go into the air and just dumps them in the water.

KG: Misfortune teller. An American university professor has accurately predicted the outcomes of the last nine U.S. elections -- but in Donald Trump's case he also predicted impeachment.

NK: Bear's repeating. After an American comedian mocked our interview about a bear attacking a dumpster at a pot shop we felt compelled to air it again -- so you know bear with us.

KG: And a going concern. If you find yourself needing to use a washroom at one Montreal metro station -- no problem, just fill out the requisite forms and wait the requisite five business days. As It Happens. The Thursday Edition. Radio that guesses if you still need to pee after that well: urine luck.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: 'The red flags were all there': DEA agent busts doctor who ran opioid 'pill mill'

Virginia opioid doctor

Guests: Christopher Dziedzic

KG: An agent with the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration says Joel Smithers, quote, "hid behind his white doctor's coat as a large scale drug dealer." Yesterday the Virginia based doctor was sentenced to 40 years in a federal prison for illegally distributing opioids. Earlier this year a jury found him guilty of more than 800 drug charges. Christopher Dziedzic is a supervisory special agent with the DEA. He oversaw this investigation. We reached Mr. Dziedzic in Roanoke, Virginia.

NK: Mr. Dziedzic you've worked at the DEA for years -- I've heard you describe this case as the worst case you've ever worked on.

CHRISTOPHER DZIEDZIC: I would stack it right up there as one of the worst ones. Most blatant. Yes.

NK: What makes it that way?

CD: It was just in the manner that the doctor ran his clinic. It was so obvious -- the red flags were all there. There was no medical supplies whatsoever at the clinic. There was not even basic needs such as soap, you know some sort of a hand sanitizers were empty. One of the employees slept in the office. There were people loitering in and around the parking lot. They would arrive at all crazy hours of the day and night waiting to be seen. I mean classic case of a pill mill.

NK: A pill mill. It does sound like a drug den rather than a doctor's office the way you describe it.

CD: Oh completely.

NK: This doctor, Joel Smithers, opened his office in Martinsville, Virginia in August 2015. By the time he was arrested in 2017, how many prescriptions for opioids did he give to patients and what kind of drugs are we talking about?

CD: So in our calculation we estimate to be somewhere around half a million of Schedule IIs. So there was actually more than that. But these are the most severe, most restricted, drugs such as oxycodone, oxymorphone. And this is what made it so bad because of the amount in the two year time span that he prescribed and these people were able to get them filled across multiple states.

NK: What kind of lengths were people going to to try to get one of these prescriptions from Dr. Smithers?

CD: We had people come down as far as Ohio. And we had him go as far as Indiana to pharmacies to get them filled. A majority of people came from Kentucky and West Virginia -- and I would say easily on the average probably about a three to four hour drive one way.

NK: And I've heard it described as car loads of people coming.

CD: Right. So this is actually how this case got sort of initiated is that our pharmacists in the local community in and around Martinsville they simply did their job. You know they have a corresponding responsibility to make sure that these prescriptions that they seem or they feel aren't valid do not get filled. So when you have a vehicle pull up with Kentucky plates, West Virginia plates, and five people roll out of the vehicle from the same doctor, walk into a pharmacy, and essentially have very similar medications prescribed such as the oxycodone -- that is a huge red flag. I mean it cannot get any clear that this is invalid. And therefore these pharmacists did their job and said you know 'we're not going to fill this, we're not going to be part of this.' And it got to the point where they actually -- some pharmacies -- had a placard or a notice in the window that we do not fill prescriptions from Dr. Smithers.

NK: It's two years though -- it is not a short amount of time. So why did it take so long if it was so obvious?

CD: I mean we got word of his clinic probably somewhere around September. We started a case in October. It takes a long time to investigate these clinics because of what's involved -- the different investigative techniques that we take against them. And then finally we were able to secure search warrants for March of 17 where we obtained our full evidence to then have analyzed reviewed and prepare for prosecution.

NK: After patients got a prescription what were they doing with the drugs? Was it always for personal use?

CD: No not necessarily. Matter of fact there were several groups of people that actually were recruited by one individual -- let's say you know because it happened in both states like West Virginia or Kentucky -- he would have people and he would recruit them and say listen I'm going to send you to a doctor, you are going to go and you are going to be seen by him, he's going to give you a prescription, and you know I will pay you for gas to get out there -- when you come back some of those pills make it to me, some you get to keep. You can take them or you can sell. That's what often happened.

NK: There was one death as I understand it. Is that the case?

CD: So there was one death that we had fully investigated and subsequently charged.

NK: What do you think Dr. Smithers motivation was here?

CD: Money. That's the only reason. Based on what I've seen, based on what we've uncovered, I cannot come up with any other reason than it was money. And he made good money. Each patient paid about 300 dollars to be seen each time so it was definitely worth it for him. And I believe we added up somewhere around 700,000 dollars which he had earned in the two year span.

NK: He said in his testimony that he was duped by some of his patients. I'll read you a quote, "I learned several lessons the hard way about trusting people I should not have trusted." What's your response to that?

CD: Well my response is that he's the doctor, he's the educated one, that should know. Of course anyone can come in and say hey I'm in pain -- okay well then here you go. Everybody was getting oxycodone or Schedule II prescriptions. There was no treatment plans. There was no referral so some specialties. So take it for what it's worth but you know to me it's a lame excuse.

NK: What impact do you think Dr. Smithers had -- you know that it was across the state and beyond, but this was also a very small community where his office was based?

CD: Just to make it clear although he practiced in Martinsville we are very confident he did not have any impact where the pills made it to or around Martinsville because majority of his patients -- 90 percent, well probably even more than that...95 percent plus -- all came from either Kentucky, West Virginia, and then like I said a handful from Ohio. So that's where all those drugs made it back. Now did it have an impact on Martinsville? Yes. All these people came to Martinsville, loitered around -- we don't know and we probably will never know whether there were any associated crimes that occurred. But driving into Martinsville, waiting their turn to be issued a prescription, and then driving back. Now at the same time we're talking this is 2015-2016 which is the timeframe with this opioid crisis that is going on in this country and we all know that the epicenter of this crisis was going on right in those two states West Virginia -- actually three states -- West Virginia, Kentucky, and Ohio. To me he essentially allowed approximately half a million of pills to flood the communities of those states during this ongoing crisis. So he has significantly contributed and had a negative impact on the lives of those people that he prescribed these pills to.

NK: Mr. Dziedzic thank you.

CD: Oh you're very welcome.

KG: That was Christopher Dziedzic with the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration in Roanoke, Virginia. We reached out to Joel Smithers' lawyer but did not hear back before we went to air tonight.

[Music]

Trump predictor

Guest: Allan Lichtman

KG: He's made his name for making seemingly far-fetched predictions about U.S. politics that turn out to come true. We first spoke to American University professor Allan Lichtman during the 2016 election when he told us he was sure that Donald Trump would win the presidency. It wasn't a fluke. Professor Lichtman has predicted the last nine elections correctly. And even before Donald Trump won the professor came out with another even more bizarre prediction that Donald Trump would be impeached. Wouldn't you know it, that call may also be on the verge of coming true. We reached Allan Lichtman in Washington.

NK: Professor Lichtman it seems as if your political crystal ball has not failed you yet. Is it luck or science?

ALLAN LICHTMAN: Well I think it's science but it's also great to have a little bit of luck. My system for predicting elections is a formal model called "The Keys To The White House" based on the study of every American presidential election from 1860 to 1980. It is correctly forecast the outcomes of all elections since 1984 including Donald Trump's 2016 improbable victory. And in fact he sent me a congratulatory letter after his win.

NK: You didn't just predict that Trump would win -- and win against everyone by the way when you did that -- but you also said he'd be impeached. What made you make such a bold call even before the president took office?

AL: I'm sure Trump did not read that far into the Washington Post article to see that second prediction or I might not have gotten his letter. But my prediction about his impeachment was not based on a formal model but my historical study of his full career and his campaign. What I found was he was a person unique among all American presidents were to be elected who had no record of public service of any kind. He was someone who flouted the law. For him lying was a way of life. He had gotten into presidential politics with the biggest, worst, most protracted lie in U.S. political history that our first African-American president was illegitimate because he was born outside the U.S. And finally I saw someone who cared about nothing but himself. That put him on a path to impeachment in my view way back in September 2016.

NK: To be fair you didn't get things completely right on that front you said you believed he'd face impeachment in the first year of taking office. Why do you think that hasn't happened as quickly as you'd imagine?

AL: Yeah. Obviously it's very difficult to time impeachments. I'm not sure I pinned down that finally but I'll go with you. And the reason is simply it took a very long time for the Mueller investigation to unfold and a very long time for the Democrats to finally grow a spine and stop playing not to lose and hold the president accountable for his misdeeds.

NK: There is concern out there some people saying that pursuing impeachment could backfire for the Democrats -- even affect their chances in the next election. Do you see impeachment as good or bad for them?

AL: Well I don't think impeachment should be decided by politics. But politically of course just as the conventional wisdom was so wrong about the 2016 election they're equally wrong about 2020. Impeachment is a big benefit to Democrats and a major blow to Donald Trump which is why you see him ranting and raving. The conventional wisdom bases this on a misreading of the Clinton impeachment. When Republicans impeached President Clinton yeah they lost a few House seats but they kept the House and the impeachment gave them the biggest prize in American politics: the presidency in 2000 -- an election without impeachment that the Democrats should easily have won at a time of peace, prosperity, domestic and foreign tranquility. The impeachment led George W. Bush campaign on restoring integrity and honesty to the White House. It kept the Democrats best campaigner Bill Clinton on the shelf. And a quarter of voters said the scandal was very important to their decision making. And remember, Democrats lost that election in the Electoral College by just 537 votes in Florida.

NK: Even if the president is impeached by Congress it then of course falls to the Senate to try him. Given the Republican majority there, do you think Trump will actually be removed from office?

AL: Well, again, you got premature conventional wisdom. They're all saying oh the Senate would never remove him. They have no idea what the Senate might do when all the facts are on the table. We're just a few days into the inquiry. You know they investigated Richard Nixon for well over a year before Republicans came on board. And there may be much worse to come. We now know that Trump deep-sixed into that super secret server not just the conversation with the Ukrainian president which apparently I thought it was their best evidence, but conversations with the Saudi royal family and the dictator Vladimir Putin. There may be much worse material in that for Donald Trump if Congress could ever get their hands on it. This is what everyone misses about an impeachment investigation. You never know where it may go. The investigation of Nixon started with an investigation of the Watergate break in. What they found though was so many other things: illegal campaign contributions, illegal wiretaps, illegal break ins, illegal attempts to rig elections. They didn't know any of that early on.

NK: Republicans to this point and that's what's confounded so many people they've shown no signs of abandoning Trump despite so many missteps. What makes you think it might actually happen this time?

AL: There's one thing that will make Republicans abandon Trump, one of the Lichtman rules of politics is that for incumbent officeholders their top priority -- maybe their only priority -- is holding on to their power. And they will turn against Trump if they believe he is taking them down because they have no love or loyalty to him independent of politics.

NK: Do you have a prediction yet for the next presidential election?

AL: I don't. But I will say that if the Democrats move to vote articles of impeachment and Trump becomes only the third American president to be impeached by the full House that would turn one of my keys to the White House, the scandal key against him and make it much less likely -- presuming he survives the impeachment -- that he'll get re-elected.

NK: Are you prepared for the possibility eventually that you might be wrong about an election call after such a good run?

AL: Of course. You know I'm not God. I'm not psychic Jeane Dixon you know who is in touch with superpowers. I'm a historian and patterns of history can always change and I've been saying that for many years.

NK: Professor Lichtman thank you so much for your time.

AL: Great interview. Thank you.

KG: Allan Lichtman is a Distinguished Professor of History at American University. And we were speaking to him in Washington. And speaking of the U.S. President you might imagine that if you were facing an impeachment investigation for allegedly asking a foreign power to investigate a political rival, you wouldn't stand on the White House lawn in front of a microphone and urge another foreign power to investigate that same political rival. But that's exactly what Mr. Trump did today while struggling as usual to be heard above the sound of his helicopter.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: And by the way -- likewise -- China just started an investigation into the Bidens. Because what happened in China is just about as bad as what happened with Ukraine. So I would say that President Zelensky if it were me I would recommend that they start an investigation into the Bidens because nobody has any doubt that they weren't crooked. That was a crooked deal a hundred percent.

KG: That was U.S. President Donald Trump speaking today in Washington.

[Music]

Bolivia music study

Guest: Nori Jacoby

KG: When it comes to music we know taste isn't universal. For example the different responses to say Nickelback, Creed, or Phish. But it turns out that even the way we hear music isn't universal either. According to a new study in the journal Current Biology -- our perceptions of pitch are a matter of nature and nurture. Something researchers showed with help from an Indigenous group in the Bolivian Amazon. Nori Jacoby is the study's lead author and a research group leader at the Max Planck Institute for Empirical Aesthetics in Frankfurt, Germany, which is where we reached him.

NK: Mr. Jacoby I'm going to get to the results of the study in just a second. But first, I wanted to ask you about the Indigenous group in Bolivia that was involved in this study. Who are the Tsimane?

NORI JACOBY: The Tsimane is an Indigenous group, they live in the Bolivian Amazon at the foothill of the Andes -- [you] can get there by maybe two days in a canoe or on a Cessna plane. They don't have running waters, and live a very traditional life. And what they're special for us is that they have relatively little exposure to Western music just because cell phones and radios are very very scarce. So that makes them ideal to test how difference in experience and exposure or modulate their perception.

NK: Yeah they have their own music and you wanted to explore how big a role biology and culture play in how we hear and perceive music. We've got a recording from your research. We're just going play that.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music notes being played and sung]

NK: Can you explain to us what we're hearing there?

NJ: Okay so this is a participant in the lab in Boston. And we asked them to basically sing back some tones in different frequencies. This typically is well above the singing range -- very very high tones. And they were asked just to sing back these little short melodies maybe two tones in their comfortable singing range. And by measuring their responses and the patterns of the response we can try to figure out what's going on their mind. And we're trying to get into the understanding how pitch perception works. And what's really interesting here is that this participant replicated the melody pretty well. And actually this participant did another thing that is interesting when he heard this high tones he transposed them by an octave and sang the same note name or the same key. So the tones were basically -- if the tones were C and D then he sang back C and D. So we kept the note names. And that feature is called octave equivalence.

NK: Octave equivalence -- it's the idea that notes separated by an octave are actually the same note. Is that right?

NJ: Yes.

NK: Let's play the Tsimane participant's audio too.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music notes being played and sung]

NK: So help us break that down.

NJ: Yeah. So the participant very much like the Western participant they sang the interval between the two tones or the melody very well and very accurately. However they basically ignored the notes name or they ignore the key in which this played. And that's very important because it suggests that that feature of pitch perception is culturally contingent and is different in different populations.

NK: So what do you think the broader implications are -- what researchers should take away from what you've learned?

NJ: So first of all octave equivalence is a very very long topic in Western thought. It goes all the way to the ancient Greeks who thought that octave equivalence is somehow a consequence of mathematics, acoustics, or even mysticism. And then through Western civilization, through the history, people always kind of try to find similar ideas and their incarnation of that in modern psychology and neuroscience is ideas that octave equivalence may be originated from biological mechanisms or from neural mechanisms. But our results really challenge that notion that suggests octave equivalence here is not simply biological because of the difference across populations. But beyond that pitch is really an important feature. It's very important for music and it's essential also for speech. So pitch perception is something that people care a lot and you have in even clinical application because pitch is a feature that we want to have in hearing aids for people with hearing difficulties.

NK: I heard one of your colleagues talk about the importance of diversity of experience and that's part of the research as well. Why do you think that's so important?

NJ: Yes. So you know we tend to think we're trying to find the biological origin for a lot of the things that are around us and especially that's about the human mind. We're trying to find you know the genes and the biology behind that. But that's potentially dangerous because experience and exposure which is something that is uniform for Western participants or relatively uniform Western participants is it can be very important. So by learning, by doing our experiment, and diversifying the pool of participants potentially learning about differences we can appreciate the role of experience and exposure on the human mind.

NK: Mr. Jacoby we thank you so much for your time.

NJ: Yeah I really appreciate it. Thank you very much.

KG: Nori Jacoby is a research group leader at the Max Planck Institute for Empirical Aesthetics. We reached him in Frankfurt, Germany.

[Music]

Public Washroom

KG: Look, I admit, I probably should have gotten around to telling you about this sooner. Truth is I've been sitting on it for a while because it involves paperwork and for me at least paperwork is pretty much synonymous with another p word -- procrastination. But I've come to realize my procrastination in bringing you this story is a luxury the people in it simply can't afford. Because it has to do with a couple of other p words that often go together -- pee for one. And number two. Well exactly...number two. If either or both of those impulses should come to you when you're traveling through Montreal's Lucien L'Allier metro station you may have a problem with a capital "P." Since mid-August transit authorities have required commuters wishing to use the public washrooms to first fill out an online form and then maintain a holding pattern as it's processed which could take up to five business days. The system was apparently implemented in an effort to flush out any potential nefarious activities in the lavatories like prostitution or illicit drug use. As Montreal Transit spokesperson Louis-Andre Bertrand recently told the National Post, quote, "It's a safer and more sanitary experience." I think it's safe to say however that a system that requires people to fill out a form that could take days to process while their system is already full is neither fully safe nor sanitary. And that the only paperwork required in one's bathroom experience should immediately proceed after it not precede it.

[Music]

Part 2: Wisconsin dairy farmer

Wisconsin dairy farmer

Guest: Patty Edelburg

KG: Farmers in America's Dairyland are struggling. In 2018 two dairy farms shut down every day of the year. So far this year the numbers are looking worse. What's more, the industry has been facing low milk prices and rising rates of suicide. So farmers were looking for answers this week when Donald Trump's Agriculture Secretary Sonny Perdue visited the World Dairy Expo in Madison, Wisconsin. But when asked whether the industry could survive Mr. Perdue told reporters that maybe not everyone would. "In America" he said "the big get bigger, and the small go out." Not surprisingly some of the farmers of the Expo were a little cheesed off by what they heard. Patty Edelburg was one of them. She and her husband run a dairy farm near Stevens Point, Wisconsin. She's also the vice president of the National Farmers Union. We reached her at home.

NK: Ms. Edelburg what did you think when you heard that the agriculture secretary had told reporters essentially that small dairy farms are doomed?

PATTY EDELBURG: I was actually shocked when I heard it. Seeing somebody in this administration and the power that the secretary has to actually make some changes and realizing that he doesn't seem to want to help the small farmers in this area or in the U.S. it's kind of shocking.

NK: And he said this to reporters not to farmers themselves.

PE: Right. I was in the room, in a roundtable discussion with a whole bunch of farmers and businessmen. And I'm assuming that if he would have made them comments in that room filled with farmers the reaction would have been probably tenfold what it was coming through in the media.

NK: Tell me about some of that reaction.

PE: You know you're looking at a lot of different farmers all different sizes but most farmers especially in Wisconsin and that were in that room are family size farms -- small farms -- and when the secretary looks at you and tells you that you probably don't have a shot, you have to grow or you have to get out. So it's got to be devastation.

NK: What do you see as the root of the problem?

PE: You know in the U.S. we don't have a supply management system. We grow when we can. When prices are low, people add cows to get more milk to help pay the bills. Now when prices are high, people add cows because they can and because we're looking at you know having to pay the bills. So we have way too much milk in this country and I think there needs to be something done structurally to help change that dynamic.

NK: So you agree with Sonny Perdue when he said that farmers are producing too much.

PE: I agree when he says farmers are producing too much. I don't agree with him when he said "You either have to grow or get out." I think there's definitely ways that we can make any sized farm work in this country. You know without our small farms you know -- that's what keeps a lot of our rural communities together and rural towns going.

NK: How big is your farm?

PE: We milk about 120 cows. So in Wisconsin that's a little smaller than average.

NK: And what's it like to try to stay afloat?

PE: These last three years have been tough. I mean we've been producing milk at below the cost of average or cost of production for the last three years. So when we're looking at that you're obviously stacking up a lot of bills and stacking up a lot of debt and getting a lot of vendors that are upset with you. There's not a lot of bankers that are willing to work with many farmers right now -- not just dairy but in a lot of commodities. So you just keep going day by day. So we see a light at the end of the tunnel. I think a lot of people see a light at the end of the tunnel and unfortunately that light came a little too late for quite a few farmers in this country.

NK: We've heard about hundreds shutting down just in this past year. Suicides we're hearing about. What are you hearing from farmers as they try to decide whether to stay open?

PE: Oh a lot of it is that. I mean you're right -- I think we've had over 1200 farms in Wisconsin alone closed down in the last two years, and suicide rates have been high, and mental health issues have been extremely high in this industry. I mean farmers are losing farms that they've been farming -- their families have been farming -- 100 or 150 years. And when that farmer is the last one in the farm and has to go back and tell his family that you know he lost it because there is nothing there to help him continue going that's where a lot of the mental health stuff comes from. I know three of my neighbors here have just sold their cows in the last year -- and that's just my immediate neighbors.

NK: So much of their identity is wrapped up -- it's not just a job.

PE: Absolutely. Absolutely. You're losing something that's been there for generations. These farmers it's really hard for them to face families, it's really hard for them to face their neighbors, you know to say that they've failed. Unfortunately very often it's not the farmer that's failed it's the system that has failed the farmer.

NK: You mentioned a light at the end of the tunnel. What is that light?

PE: Well I think the price of milk has come up. It's come up you know three or four dollars within the last few months. So it's huge. But it's going to take some time for people to dig out of the hole that they dug in the last couple of years. But on the other hand we really need some type of a structural change in this country. We really do. I think we depend so much in the U.S. on exports. Everybody says the export market is what's going to make it or break the dairy farmers. And our exports in the U.S. have been up, they've been holding steady on dairy for the last couple years. And our milk prices has tanked. So I don't know that export is the answer. You know the National Farmers Union, the Wisconsin Farmers Union especially has looked really hard into supply management or find demand type systems. And Canada, you guys have an amazing system up there that works really well for a lot of your farmers. And I know that the U.S. can't cookie cutter that system because you know the size of scale is so much different. But to balance our supply balance demand it's something that's going to have to take place to keep a lot of our family farms on the ground.

NK: There are a lot of farmers there who do supports Donald Trump. Wisconsin was key to the president's victory back in 2016. Do you get a sense that that's changing?

PE: I think with a lot of the trade wars that have been happening a lot of that has changed. You know our president has made things drastically worse when it comes to exports and trade -- with China especially. And he's breaking the backs of a lot of the farmers out there. And I think the farmers -- you know this country that's always been said that the farmers were the ones, the ranchers were the ones, that elected this president. But I think -- I'm hoping that a lot of that is changing, and they're starting to see that our president is not exactly working for our farmers.

NK: Ms. Edelburg thank you.

PE: Absolutely. Thank you so much.

KG: Patty Edelburg is the vice president of the National Farmers Union in the United States. She and her husband run a dairy farm near Stevens Point, Wisconsin.

[Music]

Jagmeet Singh

KG: Another day, another question for Jagmeet Singh about his turban. The NDP leader was in Toronto today where reporters wanted his thoughts on an exchange he had yesterday in Montreal. Mr. Singh was out shaking hands at a public market when a man leaned in to offer some unsolicited advice.

SOUNDCLIP

JAGMEET SINGH: Bonjour Monsieur.

VOICE: Hello. How are you?

JAGMEET SINGH: Good to see you sir. You're okay?

VOICE: Yeah.

JAGMEET SINGH: Pleasure to meet you.

VOICE: You know what?

JAGMEET SINGH: What's that?

VOICE: You should cut your turban off [inaudible] and you look like a Canadian.

JAGMEET SINGH: Oh I think Canadians look like all sorts of people. That's the beauty of Canada.

VOICE: Yeah but...

JAGMEET SINGH: I don't agree sir.

VOICE: In Rome you do as the Romans.

JAGMEET SINGH: But this is Canada. You can do like whatever you like.

VOICE: All right.

JAGMEET SINGH: Thanks.

KG: I don't know if you could hear it there -- right at the end -- but the man says to Jagmeet Singh "I hope you win." Mr. Singh was asked about the incident today. Here's his response.

SOUNDCLIP

JAGMEET SINGH: You know for me I mean it's something that I faced my whole life. So it's not something that I'm surprised by. In that case I think the guy was trying to be friendly but you know that's not -- that's the thing when people say mean things that they don't always intend for it to be mean but it's hurtful and a lot of Canadian face that all the time. Casual comments that demean people because of their gender, their sexuality, the colour of their skin, their spiritual beliefs. That happens all too often. And I want to send a clear message to Canadians who've been told to change who they are just to fit in or to get ahead, I want people to be who they are, to believe in yourself, to love yourself, and to celebrate who you are because everyone should belong and I want to build a world where everyone belongs.

KG: That was NDP leader Jagmeet Singh speaking to reporters in Toronto this afternoon.

[Music]

Maritime pollution

Guest: Lucy Gilliam

KG: The International Maritime Organization says it's an opportunity for innovation. Environmental advocates say it's a loophole and a dangerous cheat. The "it" they're both referring to is a device called an "open loop scrubber." It's designed to clean the air of exhaust fumes. But green groups say it's actually just dumping harmful pollutants into the water instead. And soon we may be seeing a lot more of them. Lucy Gilliam works in aviation and shipping with Transportation and Environment -- an NGO promoting sustainable transport in Europe. We reached her in Rotterdam, the Netherlands.

NK: Ms. Gilliam why are ships installing these open loop scrubbers?

LUCY GILLIAM: So the reason why ships are installing these scrubbers is because there's a global regulation that's coming into force in January which means ships have to either burn cleaner fuel or they have to take the pollutants out of their exhaust gases. And so it's one of the options to deal with the pollution from the burning of ship fuel.

NK: The Independent newspaper is reporting that shipping companies have spent billions of dollars on these devices -- these open loop scrubbers. How do they work?

LG: So basically there's two different types of scrubbers. But the main type that are being installed are called open loop scrubbers. And what they're doing is taking seawater and they're basically like washing the exhaust gases to remove some of the pollutants and then those pollutants are dissolving in the water and then being pumped out to sea. So it's basically taking the pollutants from the exhaust and transforming it in seawater and then pumping it overboard again.

NK: So not polluting the air perhaps but polluting the water?

LG: Yep. The idea is that the seawater is supposed to kind of buffer and remove some of the acidity of that exhaust gas chemicals and then basically being discharged at sea and the idea is that it gets discharged at sea and diluted. But nonetheless there are still pollutants in that wash water.

NK: Have there been any studies yet on the effects of these scrubbers on the water and on marine life?

LG: There's very limited information. I mean there have been studies looking at the quantity of different pollutants in scrubber washed water but there's not very many studies that actually say what this will do on the marine environment. So there are lots of unknowns and it really depends on what the quality of the water is. So if you've got a very degraded marine environment which is already polluted from other sources then that wash water -- the scrubbers -- they will not be as effective basically because it's dependent on having buffering capacity in that seawater in order to kind of treat the sulfur oxide that are being removed from the exhaust gas.

NK: What kind of vessels are using these?

LG: So already there's been a number of installations in Europe and ships sailing in emission control area. This is areas like the Baltic and the North Sea in the channel but also there are emission control areas off the coast of the United States and I think Canada as well. So ships have already been installing them in order to sail in those areas. One of the biggest groups to use scrubbers is like cruise ships but also there's a number of ferries that are using scrubbers and also some kind of cargo ships as well.

NK: Now the International Maritime Organization has said these devices are meant to be equivalent to options like clean fuel. And I'll read you a quote -- they say -- "The intention behind that idea of equivalence is to allow for innovation." What do you make of that argument?

LG: Yeah I mean I think it's always with the IMO -- they like to present choices for industry rather than just saying you know you need to abide by the regulations in this way. So the idea is that you know you allow for people to kind of come up with different options. I think the challenge is, are these open loop scrubbers really equivalent to the burning of cleaner fuel? And I think from the perspective of our NGO colleagues and looking at some of the evidence we think that it's not equivalent. Now after some time and you know we're now able to see how these things operate in in real life. So you know back when this regulation was being developed there were very few installations and very little information. And also it's very difficult to get information from shipping companies and also from the manufacturers. It's not like you know loads of independent researchers can very easily you know go and assess this independently. So you know there's not very much independent science to say what the impact is of this technology.

NK: Are you worried about what might happen if these scrubbers are used even more than they are already?

LG: Yeah we are worried about there being kind of many more installations than expected. I think a couple of years ago it didn't look that likely that there would be huge numbers of these things. But what we're seeing now is more and more companies moving at the last minute towards scrubbers and that does concern us because obviously the more ships there are then the more volumes of waste that's going to be discharged in the water and then obviously there's going to be more impact. Yeah so there is a concern about you know what will happen to the ecology of our coastal waters and our ports and our estuaries so alarm bells ringing basically.

NK: Is it fair for companies though to have options to try to do something different?

LG: Yeah I mean -- I guess so. I guess it's good to have some options but I mean personally you know I think that going with the cleaner fuel is the best option because you're managing those pollutants on land and then in the refineries you're containing those pollutants and that waste. Then you've got a cleaner fuel. I think that's kind of the best direction of travel. With scrubbers you're investing in a technology that really is for a limited lifespan because ultimately we have other bigger goals. We need to decarbonise shipping, we need to be switching to zero emission fuels, we need to be completely changing and moving away from this heavily toxic -- this heavy fuel oil that's being burned now to much more cleaner fuels in order to meet other obligations like our climate commitments. So it feels like you know these scrubbers are going in the wrong direction.

NK: Ms. Gilliam thank you.

LG: You're welcome.

KG: Lucy Gilliam works in aviation and shipping with Transportation and Environment -- an NGO promoting sustainable transport in Europe. She's in Rotterdam, the Netherlands.

[Music]

Bear and pot shop

KG: What does it take? What does it mean to be Canadian? Well in this 71 part series we'll be analyzing the complex and glimmering feelings that swirl within the Canadian soul. I'm just kidding. No one knows what it means. There aren't really a whole lot of shared traits linking everyone in this impractically giant country. Although here's one: we all get a bit overexcited when an American celebrity talks about us. On "Late Night with Seth Meyers" last night comedian and actor Nick Kroll talked about his recent visit to Canada. And as journalist Jonathan Goldsbie pointed out on Twitter today that story involved a story we aired on As It Happens this past summer.

SOUNDCLIP

SETH MEYERS: You've been on tour. You just were in Toronto.

NICK KROLL: Yes.

SETH MEYERS: Do you drive?

NICK KROLL: Yeah. I've driven up to Toronto and Montreal to do the show. And I was driving up and listening to the radio and NPR was on. And then about 20 miles before the border with Canada it like ominously became the CBC. Like the Canadian version of NPR. And I wasn't really listening. And then all of the sudden I hear someone -- I was like what is that? And it was like: 'And then the bear broke into the marijuana dispensary and began to dumpster dive and have some fun. It was against the rules however we should always remember that we are on the bears land.' It was like most Canadian [censor bleep] I've ever heard in my life.

SETH MEYERS: You do have to remember that we always forget we're on the bears land. [Laughter]

KG: That's comedian Nick Kroll on Late Night with Seth Meyers last night recalling an interview he heard on As It Happens in July -- an interview about a bear that tried to break into the dumpster outside a pot shop in Colorado. He didn't say "aboot," thank Celine Dion. But he did reinforce certain stereotypes about Canada and misremember certain aspects of that interview. Like, there was a bear. And there was a pot shop dumpster. And the bear tried to get into. And that's about it. Are we being exactly as earnest as he's suggesting to replay part of the interview to prove we're not as earnest as he suggesting? Probably. But I can live with that. From our archives here's guest host Megan Williams speaking with Nikko Garza who works at The Bud Depot in Lyons, Colorado.

SOUNDCLIP

MW: Mr. Garza can you walk me through what the bear was caught doing on video?

NIKKO GARZA: [Chuckles] Of course. The play-by-play we had from our security camera. We had the fence and then we had our dumpster behind it which is all locked up. So the bear ripped through the fence, tore it open, then proceeded to try and get into the dumpster. And when he couldn't get into the dumpster he started moving it around. Next thing you know he's spinning around in circles with it and he drags this really heavy dumpster out into the parking lot and then proceeded to drag it a few yards all the way across the parking lot before he -- I guess -- gave up and tried to find something a little bit easier to eat.

MW: Now you told one reporter that the bear quote "busted through like The Shining."

NG: Yes. I was referring to that scene of Jack Nicholson when he puts his face through the wall after breaking a hole in there. Because just watching him break through there it was really reminiscent of that. But I imagine he's a lot friendlier. Instead of running away or instead of running towards you, it'll runaway or at least I would hope.

MW: [Laughs] Now the million dollar question here is of course was there any weed in his dumpsters? I mean is that what the bear was after?

NG: Unfortunately no. I imagine he could probably smell something from the shop. But as far as the dumpster goes we don't have any cannabis products in there.

MW: So tell me about this particular bear. I understand you've given it a nickname. [Laughter] Tell me about that.

NG: The nickname is Cheeseburger just because of all the good food he's been trying to get so the name was fitting.

MW: So what ultimately happened to the bear?

NG: So actually yesterday I drove by there and there was a sighting. I saw him just chilling up there on the rock and I saw him just stare and I was like wow still coming around huh? Even after all these people are coming and bothering you today. But every time we've tried to get a hold of the Rangers it just disappears. But hopefully we can get him relocated. At least that's what I hope to see.

MW: Get him relocated where? Like somewhere in the wilds?

NG: Exactly -- a little further into the wild just because we are a small town. We have about 2000 people here in Lyons -- small mountain town. And you know how nature and people work -- while we can still exist it feels like we've been pushing nature out of its home and this is what happens, you know.

MW: I'm assuming the pot shop in itself is not responsible for attracting the bears.

NG: You know everybody wants to work at the pot shop and maybe the bear is just showing some initiative and showing what he can do with that garbage. [Laughter]

KG: From our archives that's As It Happens guest host Megan Williams speaking with Nikko Garza who works at the Colorado pot shop The Bud Depot.

[Music]

D’Arcy McKeown

KG: It's been nearly a year since students involved in the sexual assault case at St. Michael's College school were arrested and turned themselves in. And now three former students have pleaded guilty. Their charges centre on disturbing videos that were shared on social media of boys on the football team at the private all-boys high school in Toronto assaulting another teenager with a broom handle. Incidents like those are too familiar for D'Arcy McKeown. He reported a similar assault-masked-as-hazing as a freshman football player at McGill University in 2005. And he attended St. Michael's College School for two years prior to that. Last year he told Carol about his experience and what he makes of acts like these being called "hazing." Here's part of that conversation from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

D'ARCY MCKEOWN: To be perfectly honest I think it's something that people who don't want to admit the severity of these actions. It's a phrase that they use to kind of cover tracks -- it can be more easily chalked up to 'kids messing around,' 'boys will be boys,' whatever have you -- when in reality most of these different hazing events are really assaults of various types.

CO: What happened to you at McGill? And you've talked about this very generously because I know it must be horrible to relive -- but your teammates have been joking about something they called, well a proctologic exam they called 'Dr. Broom.' Did you understand what they are talking about when you heard those words?

DM: I mean I was able to gather together what they were trying to convey. But when I was in the moment before the night of the initiation and hazing I just kind of chalked it up to like mental warfare -- veterans trying to just mess around with the rookie players -- you know people who were smart enough to get in McGill you'd think that they'd be smart enough to know that things with these hazing are unacceptable. And by and large, illegal.

CO: You attended St. Michael's College School in high school. You've played on the football team -- before you went to McGill. Did you ever experience anything like that? Because now they're investigating whether there's a culture of this kind of abuse at that school. Did you ever experience that when you were there?

DM: In my experience, no, that was never part of my time at St. Mike's. But one thing I've learned is that these hazings seem to kind of be forming their way through different groups at different times. And for me St. Mike's was actually my safe place -- after McGill I returned to Toronto and ended up helping out the football team there. And between the coaches and teachers of St. Mike's -- and the folks who welcomed me at UofT -- that's what helped get me past the McGill thing. So the fact that this is going on -- and it just brought a ton of different feelings and emotions back which is kind of -- a bit hard to grasp. To be honest I've had some [inaudible] where deep down I'm afraid that the reason that these kids came up with that as a hazing initiation is because of my ties to St. Mike's and the fact that I [inaudible] that because it was public knowledge. And the fact that these kids think it's appropriate -- I mean it's so inherently against everything that is taught at St. Mike's.

KG: That's D'Arcy McKeown speaking with Carol in November of last year about the assaults masked as hazing that he endured, and about his thoughts on the sexual assault case at St Michael's College School. Today, three former students pleaded guilty in that case.

[Music]

Part 3: Saudi travel

Saudi travel

Guest: Nikita Bernardi

KG: Some of the stories we cover out of Saudi Arabia are horrifying. Stories like the war the kingdom is fighting next door in Yemen or the murder of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi alleged to have been carried out by henchmen of the Saudi Crown Prince. But this one is light. At least it's supposed to be. Prince Mohammed bin Salman is offering travelers a chance to enjoy his kingdom's pleasures by applying for the first ever Saudi tourist visas. Now, right after the anniversary of Mr. Khashoggi his death. Nikita Bernardi will not be making the trip. Ms. Bernardi is a Middle East based public relations consultant. We reached her in London, England.

NK: Ms. Bernardi what did you think when you saw the news that Saudi Arabia was going to start issuing its first tourist visas?

NIKITA BERNARDI: Well I wasn't too surprised because I know that this is something that they've been planning on doing for a while as part of their Vision 2030. But I was certainly surprised with the timing. It was very very close to the one year anniversary of Jamal Khashoggi's murder. And they obviously knew that they were going to be receiving a lot of negative press around that. And I suppose they thought that this would be a good time to balance that out by promoting the natural beauty of the country. But I'm not sure that it's worked as well as they had hoped.

NK: You know very well of course that Crown Prince bin Salman's rebranding effort began several years ago. You actually spoke about it with Jamal Khashoggi before his death. What did he tell you?

NB: Yeah Jamal and I were speaking prior to his death because he was going to speak at a conference that I was organizing in Washington D.C. last year. His view was that these reforms were very superficial, that there was no way that you can have full reform without having rights at the same time. The other point that he often made was that these reforms were being promoted solely about the Crown Prince himself. And therefore you know if he has the power to give reforms he also has the power to take them away. And that's not really real reform, is it?

NK: When you think about the anniversary just yesterday -- when you think of Jamal Khashoggi and the situation in Saudi Arabia, what would you say to a Canadian or an American perhaps who's considering applying for one of these visas?

NB: You know I think it's really important to look into the rules and the reality of the place that you're going to. I also think that the onus should be on our own nations so you know Canada, US, the U.K., Italy, etc -- to make sure that they have warned their citizens enough about the realities of that country because at the end of the day if you get arrested for doing something that you didn't realize wasn't allowed it's your own country that's going to have to get you out. So the onus should be on you know their foreign ministries to make sure that their own citizens have enough information and can make an informed decision about whether or not they want to go on holiday to Saudi Arabia.

NK: What do you say to the idea that opening up to tourists might actually, however slowly, help spark change?

NB: I want to believe that that is true. Unfortunately I'm not sure it will be. I don't think tourists themselves are going to -- say -- go and meet with government officials and ask for government officials to change policy. So I think it's a nice idea but I think it's a little naive for now.

NK: I wonder what you think about you know Instagram culture being what it is, influencers, social media being what it is that there are going to be people who take Saudi Arabia up on its offer and start promoting a sort of pristine image.

NB: Yeah I think that's a real issue because I think of course Saudi Arabia has the right to open its borders to tourism but the problem is when they're flying people in who no doubt have had a very curated experience once they are there. I'm sure in some cases they've had their own bodyguards and you know they've been carried around in private vehicles and all the rest of it. So I just think it's a very fake experience that they have had of the country. And I think it's quite irresponsible of a lot of influencers to do this at the end of the day if someone sees a post on Instagram from an influencer and is inspired to go to Saudi Arabia and they get there and it's totally different to what they thought it was. The influence I kind of has a responsibility to show the reality and not just an Instagram version of it.

NK: We've certainly paid a lot of attention to Jamal Khashoggi's murder. But do you worry that in the broader public, in the broader realm, that people are forgetting?

NB: I'm not sure they are. I think Saudi Arabia took a really big hit after the murder last year. I think that based off of that there's been a lot more effort to show that his murder was not just a unique thing -- that it was not just some rogue agents that made it happen. And there's been a lot more emphasis on trying to show that there are still a lot of women who are imprisoned for various things. The amount of executions through the death penalty has increased this year. So you know things are not going as well as they want. And I think focusing on Jamal Khashoggi's murder is quite convenient for Saudi Arabia because it makes it seem like it was just one bad thing that happened. But the truth is that rights are virtually nonexistent. And what they've done is not good enough. And I don't think that people are quite as willing to visit Saudi Arabia as influencers who are paid to go there.

NK: Ms. Bernardi thank you for your time.

NB: Thank you very much for having me.

KG: Nikita Bernardi does public relations consulting for human rights agencies. We reached her in London, England.

[Music]

Brexit Poetry

KG: Turmoil and chaos can inspire great art. Which would explain why the amateur poetry submitted to the BBC this week was pretty decent. Today marks National Poetry Day in the UK so the broadcaster asked listeners to write verse about Brexit and they delivered. Which is more than Theresa May can say. Here is BBC political editor John Pienaar reciting some listener submissions.

SOUNDCLIP

JOHN PIENAAR: Here's the first one. And thanks to Pete for this one. And it goes like this: Mrs. Merkel did pile on the pressure, 30 days to present us your treasure, get a deal he must or send a letter to Tusk, or spend a night at Her Majesty's pleasure.

[Applause]

JOHN PIENAAR: Well this is from Jake Yap: Though Boris may be no defender of what he calls "acts of surrender," He will fight on the beaches until he hears speeches by Baroness Hale a.k.a. Brenda.

[Laughter]

JOHN PIENAAR: Thanks to Ann: Shall I compare thee to a parliamentary day, Thou art more peaceful and less desperate, Rough winds do shake the hard won deal of May. The UK decided to Brexit so the Tories asked Boris to fix it. He sent Brussels his pitch and is prepared to die in a ditch, if Juncker and Barnier don't dig it.

KG: That's the BBC John Pienaar reciting poetry submissions about Brexit on the UK's National Poetry Day.

[Music]

Vaping illness

Guest: Jennifer Boland

KG: 18 people in the United States have died, and at least a thousand more are sick from a severe lung disease linked to vaping. For months what's caused this outbreak has remained a mystery. And so far no single substance or product has been found responsible. But now doctors from the Mayo Clinic believe they're closer to understanding the damage that's being done. Dr. Jennifer Boland is a pathologist and co-author of a new study in The New England Journal of Medicine. We reached her in Rochester, Minnesota.

NK: Dr. Boland there have been so few studies on this mysterious lung disease. What made you and your colleagues want to learn more?

JENNIFER BOLAND: We did start seeing a definite spike in the number of cases that we were seeing where the clinical team was concerned that the patient had a vaping associated lung illness and we started kind of tallying these cases setting them aside and noting the changes that we were seeing. And soon, we had at least a large enough group that we thought it was worthwhile reporting our findings.

NK: There is some speculation that these illnesses have to do with oils clogging the lungs. What did these lung biopsies show you about what was happening to these patients?

JB: We could think up a lot of ways that vaping might injure the lung. There are lots of different changes that can happen in the lung to make people feel very sick and short of breath. There were a few theories that had come up you know some people thought maybe it was just the lipid from these cartridges that was accumulating in the lung and causing the lung to become inflamed. And that's just not the pattern that we were seeing in any of these biopsies that we observed. Others thought maybe it was more like an allergic reaction or a hypersensitivity reaction. Still others thought maybe it was just more of a kind of a direct toxic insult or toxic injury. And until we really look at the long under the microscope it's hard to know for sure. We're seeing damage to both windpipes -- the small windpipes down in the lung as well as the air sacs surrounding it. So the lung tissue is damaged. The changes that we're seeing really look more like it's a direct toxic effect to the lung.

NK: Just describe what they actually look like. What does the damage look like? Because most of us won't see a lung healthy or otherwise up close.

JB: Yeah. So a lot of damage that we're seeing there includes the cells that usually line those little wind pipes are dying and then we get a lot of swelling and a lot of inflammation as the lung tries to basically heal itself. And then it's not just the windpipes but the actual lung tissue or the air sacks of the lung around the airways also look very swollen. They're showing tissue damage and effort to try to repair the damage that's been done.

NK: You know I've heard some of your team talk about the kinds of situations you would normally see this kind of lung damage, can you tell me a little bit more about that.

JB: You know when we see a injury to the windpipe sent to the lung we actually can come up with lots of different possibilities for what that might be -- caustic fume for example that's inhaled into the lung and can cause a similar pattern such as this.

NK: I heard it described as you know perhaps an industrial accident situation or even being exposed to things including mustard gas. That sounds so extreme.

JB: Yeah. So one could imagine that these types of patterns could be seen in a very similar setting like that -- basically any toxic environmental exposure that you would breathe in and enter your lung in that way could cause a similar pattern.

NK: How does it compare to damage that you see in the lungs of someone who is a heavy smoker of tobacco or cannabis?

JB: Typically heavy smokers of tobacco and cannabis you don't usually see this direct injury to the lung. Generally most patients who smoke cigarettes don't get any type of acute damage to the lung that's causing all of this inflammation and swelling. The injury pattern that we're seeing we typically do not see that secondary to cigarettes or marijuana.

NK: Last week the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said it believes products with THC, marijuana based products essentially, are playing a role in what you're seeing in all of this concern. Do you know if the subjects of your study vaped cannabis products?

JB: They did. So we had a high percentage -- I believe about 70 percent of patients reported smoking products with cannabis oil or cannabis products within them. However we did have you know a subset of patients who reported vaping only nicotine products. So while it does appear based on our study and others that maybe THC containing products have a higher risk it does seem at least based on self reporting that there are some patients who also may get this problem, this disease, just vaping nicotine based products.

NK: What do you think is causing this kind of reaction?

JB: That's the big question. I guess the next big question is, what exactly is it? And I don't think based on pathologic pattern there's not anything for us to say specifically what might be the specific offending agent. But I think it's a good first step for us to understand that it's probably not just the lipid in these cartridges -- it is probably actually some chemical or some other substance in there that might be leading to this injury.

NK: Two samples as I understand it came from patients who died from this vaping related disease. Do we know if the other people in your study will recover?

JB: We know that several of them did recover and recovered well enough to be sent home from the hospital so you know many of the patients in the study also did recover and were able to go home.

NK: Are you worried about others?

JB: Yes. I mean this is kind of in the forefront of everybody's mind now that we know this is a big problem but definitely a worrisome trend and worried about more patients coming down with this illness in the future.

NK: You figured out one piece of this now. But how challenging is it going to be for researchers like yourself to try to pinpoint the exact cause?

JB: Yeah I think that's proving really difficult. I know that there's a lot of epidemiological researchers who are trying very hard to figure out exactly what the exact product might be. But there is such a variety of different products that are being put into e-cigarettes -- not only products that can be bought but also things people are getting off the street or kind of concocting. So it's very difficult I think to get a grasp on exactly what is going into these e-cigarettes and what might be the culprit but hopefully with more research we'll be able to figure that out.

NK: Do you have any advice for people who are thinking about or are currently vaping?

JB: It would be great if you could quit. It's a great time to quit.

NK: Dr. Boland thank you so much for your time.

JB: All right. Thank you.

KG: Dr. Jennifer Boland is a pathologist at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.

[Music]

Joi "SJ" Harris

KG: In 2017, Joi "SJ" Harris was working as a stunt performer in Vancouver on the set of the movie Deadpool 2. It was her first job in a movie. It was also her last. Ms. Harris died after being thrown from her motorcycle during a stunt and crashing into a window. Now, WorkSafeBC has finished its investigation into her death. It says TCMF Vancouver Productions Ltd. violated workplace safety rules. The report says the production company failed to do a risk assessment and make sure that Ms. Harris was wearing safety headgear. 20th Century Fox says it has respectfully disagreed with some of the report's findings and that it implemented enhanced safety procedures after the accident. Back in 2017 As It Happens guest host Mike Finnerty spoke with Porsche Taylor who was Ms. Harris's manager. Here's part of that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

PT: This was as SJ's first stuntwoman job, but she was more than capable of doing any types of stunts. She's a professional road racer and has extensive experience.

MF: Was it something that she had been wanting to do?

PT: Yes. When approached with the opportunity, she was excited and ready to go and just head-over-heels. She was very, very, very happy to do this.

MF: Why did she want to get into stunt performing?

PT: She thought that it would be a great avenue for her to advance her career into a new direction. She loved being a road racer and was super excited about trailblazing in another direction. That’s what she was all about.

MF: Can you tell us a little bit about her path to road racing because she's quoted in your magazine, in 2015, saying, “I'm everything people never saw in this sport.”

PT: Absolutely. SJ began road racing when she took classes because she wanted to get to enhance her skill level on the streets of New York City. For her, whenever there was something she was interested in, she would always do a ton of research and learn everything she could about it. And once she got on the track, she fell in love with it. And she was surprised that there weren't very many women who were racing. And no women of colour, no African-American women in particular. And she was excited about being able to break some new ground in that way.

MF: Why weren't there?

PT: You know, I don't know why in particular there might not have been? I know that road racing itself is a sport that doesn't have very many folks in it of any colour. I know that it's expensive to be a road racer. SJ’s races were all self-funded. So she would work her day job and then save her money for track days and parts and everything that you would need to be a road racer. So it's not something that's super affordable to participate in. So you know I'm sure that that might be a deterrent for some.

KG: From our archives, that was Porsche Taylor speaking with As It Happens guest host Mike Finnerty about Joi "SJ" Harris.

[Music]

Trailblazing Technology

KG: How do you convey the masterful control and explosive power of a world class sprinter at the start of a race? It's obvious: you put a camera just below their crotches, pointed up through their legs. Maybe you never thought about method. Maybe you thought about it now and you think it's not a good way to really capture the essence of an athlete or anyone. Well the International Association of Athletics Federations or IAAF had a different opinion. To attract new viewers to the track and field events it implanted two cameras in the starting blocks designed to give you dramatic shots of runners faces as they wait for the starting gun. "Trailblazing technology" the IAAF called it. German sprinter Gina Luckenkemper called it something else, "quite stupid." She added, quote, "I would doubt that a woman was part of the development of that. See, due to block placement -- and human anatomy -- the cameras capture the drama of the runners pre-race faces through their legs right near their crotches. Not a great look. You'd think that someone would have noticed that before the cameras made their broadcast debut at the World Track and Field Championships in Doha, Qatar. Nope. So now the IAAF has announced it will reduce the use of those cameras. Really seems like those problems could have been foreseen if they'd adequately tested them. Or as Ms. Luckenkemper suggests, if a woman had helped develop the tech. I mean we don't know she's right but there's certainly a groin of truth to it.

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October 3, 2019 Episode Transcript

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