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The AIH Transcript for August 15, 2019

Hosts: Nil Koksal and Karen Gordon

NIL KOKSAL: Hello, I’m Nil Koksal, sitting in for Carol Off

KAREN GORDON: Good evening, I'm Karen Gordon. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

KG: Tonight:

NK: What she got, what he didn't give. Former Attorney-General Jodi Wilson revealed feels vindicated by the Ethics Commissioner's report on the SNC-Lavalin affair — but she still wants the Prime Minister to apologize.

KG: She said, “Go ask Alice”. But on the fiftieth anniversary of Woodstock, We instead called singer Grace Slick herself — to feed your heads with what three days of peace and love was really about. We think she'll know.

NK: Standing up after a standoff. Philadelphia's mayor urges strengthen gun control legislation, after a gunman wounds six of the city's police officers in an overnight shootout.

KG: Crash, boom, burn. Seven people were sent to hospital in London, Ontario — after a car slammed into a house causing, a gas line to explode and setting fire to several neighboring homes.

KG: And… fighting flyers with flyers. The seaside town of Ocean City, New Jersey is betting on a crack squad of raptors to scare off the hordes of frenzied, ravenous seagulls that have overtaken its boardwalk and beaches. As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Fearless squawk radio.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Woodstock: Grace Slick, London explosion

Woodstock: Grace Slick

Guest: Grace Slick

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: “White Rabbit” by Jefferson Airplane]

KG: Fifty years ago today, some of the biggest acts in rock-and-roll got set to take the stage at Woodstock. Janis Joplin, the Grateful Dead, the Who, Jimmi Hendrix, and her.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: “White Rabbit” by Jefferson Airplane]

KG: That's the unmistakable voice of Grace Slick — lead singer of Jefferson Airplane, Jefferson Starship and Starship. And one of the performers who mesmerized some 400-thousand peace-loving music fans on a dairy farm in Bethel, New York five decades ago. The same Grace Slick we reached today in Malibu, California.

NK: so Grace, how does it feel to know that Woodstock was 50 years ago?

GRACE SLICK: Almost everything makes me feel old these days because I am old. I'll be 80 in about a month and a half or two. And so all the technology I don't do any of it. I have an iPad, and I use it like the Encyclopedia Britannica. I look things up, but I don't do e-mail, I don't do tweets, and [expletive]. You can sit there and think about some clever to say, but I don't want you just sit there. I want to hear how fast you are on your feet. I want to hear the tone in your voice. Do you sound sad when you say you're happy? I can hear that. I'm a musician.

NK: You mentioned you like to hear people. You like to see hear the tone in their voice.

GS: Yeah.

NK: So much of what people heard and saw onstage at Woodstock 50 years ago is why they feel that there's this this magic still around that festival. When you think back, do you think of magic?

GS: Mostly in the air in my head, the magic of it is I don't think we realized there were that many people paying attention to the changes that were going on, and hopeful that those changes would present themselves through legal processes. And fun stuff like Woodstock was fun if you're 18 and you don't care about sitting in the mud. It's fun.

NK: Yeah, I heard that you referred to Woodstock as not amazing, but, quote, “A bunch of stupid slobs in the mud.” Would you still describe it that way?

GS: No, I don’t think they were stupid. I just think they were young. In other words, I had to stay up all night on a stage with no bathroom that I can remember waiting to go on — because something got screwed up. We're supposed to go on at nine, and we had to be on the stage until six o'clock in the morning. Now Rock and Roll is real weird at six o'clock in the morning. [NK laughs] But we did it because we said we would. I brought a white dress. And you can't run out and buy something else because it's raining. You've got a white dress, too bad. So I wore that, and I had to be very careful and put down blankets. And you couldn't see anybody because what they did was we were in a motel. Half an hour before you're supposed to go on, a helicopter comes and picks you up, drops off backstage, you go up, you play your set, then the helicopter takes you back to the hotel. So you don’t see anybody — except maybe 15 minutes of the act before you from behind. That's it. So for us, it wasn't quite as marvelous as it might be for somebody who's 18 years old. I was 29. So my idea of fun is not having to watch out for a white dress, and no bathrooms, and playing at six o'clock in the morning. So Woodstock, personally, was not fun. But the idea of it, and the idea that we attracted that many people, was kind of amazing. But that's all in your head. That's not what actually happened.

NK: I hear it was a pain just to even get in to the festival, to get there?

GS: Yeah, I mean it was a mess for a number of reasons. But if you were very young, those messes — even being 29 — I mean I couldn't even do it today. It'd probably kill me. But even being 29, it was kind of funny being backstage. And they kept saying well no, you can't go on yet. You deal with it in any way you can. But there were parts of it that were fun and kind of funny — because it was so, by then, screwed up for a number of reasons. They didn't really plan on that weather. And they didn't plan on that many people. So they had to scramble.

NK: Once you did eventually get on stage and start to perform, the “White Rabbit” performance in particular still has such a hold on people who watch it. It still gives them chills. Do you remember anything about the performance in particular?

GS: It was recorded. And it gives me chills too, not for the same reason. It’s because when you have been up all night. And I'm a smoker, so if you've been up all night smoking, [laughs] your voice is not spectacular. So when I hear the performances that we did on various things, whether it's tape or whatever it is, I just think oh God, that note is about half a pitch higher. Oh Jesus, you know? So I don't think of it the same way somebody else might. So it's different. When you go to some kind of a concert like Woodstock was, and you go my God, look at that's a half a million people. I didn't know we were that big of a group. But Americans are always blown away by size. We like big, you know? That's why everybody is fat. Bread used to be about four inches by four inches, square. Now you can't make a normal sandwich. It's just huge. So you figure oh well, I'll eat that anyway. And that's American. And we used to have huge cars, like I'm old enough to have driven a big Oldsmobile, my parents Oldsmobile. I loved it. There's nothing in the middle, so you can get busy in the backseat, or the front seat.

NK: [NK and GS laugh] Grace, so much of the mythology of Woodstock — or the reality of it — was frankly the drugs, you referenced it.

GS: Yeah.

NK: What was that like?

GS: We usually did not take acid on purpose — because it can really mess with your perception of things. [laughs] And if it gets too messy, then you screw the song up. The Dead, and the Airplane, and Jenison, and Ace of Cups, and Quicksilver, we used to dose each other. And that was kind of okay because we knew when it kicked in what was happening. But the problem is that if you dose somebody who doesn't know what's happening, they'll think they're going crazy. So it's a dangerous thing. But alcohol is worse than acid for being hideous as far as people killing each other and just being plain obnoxious. But LSD is very powerful.

NK: What was it like to perform on it?

GS: Well, we have done that. But we knew what it was, so we could feel it coming on. We also made a mistake. Our road manager had a box with about 16 little segments in it. And he had different drugs in each of the little segments. And we took what we thought was cocaine, but we took it out of the wrong box, and we took LSD. So about 15 minutes into the set, we looked at each other, and we went oh boy. [laughs] And one of the things I did. I was supposed to be playing the piano at one point. And I just stopped playing the piano because I want to listen to Jack playing the bass. I really liked his bass playing. So I just stopped playing the piano. [more laughing] So you do stuff like that. And that's the problem with acid is that it's a little tricky for delivering the song in the style it's supposed to be delivered. [more laughing]

NK: So many people love to reminisce about Woodstock, whether they were there or not. About the time, about what it meant to them. It doesn't sound like you guys sit around and reminisce about how great it was.

GS: No, we didn't just get together and go oh man, wasn’t that wonder… nobody did that. People had different takes because people are different.

NK: It sounds like Neil Young had a pretty similar take to you as well. I can't say a lot of what he…

GS: Who did?

NK: Neil Young. I can't say a lot of what he said about Woodstock on the air — because there's a lot of swearing in it. But he said it was pretty awful

GS: See, both he and I are Scorpio. And so is Joni Mitchell. So I'm surprised that her take on it was so sweet.

NK: Do you ever get the urge to be onstage again to perform?

GS: No.

NK: Why?

GS: Once I'm done, I'm pretty much done with that era. I usually don't return to the scene of the crime, or try to go home again, as they say. I usually don't want to.

NK: You lived it to the fullest, and then you want to move on.

GS: Yeah, I’ve done that.

NK: What moves you now? What gives you joy now?

GS: Ooo, painting.

NK: What do you paint?

GS: Anything I feel like painting. Partially, I do pretty consistently “Alice in Wonderland” stuff — because people write to me about that because of “White Rabbit”. So I can draw you a white rabbit in about two seconds. And I can do a very fancy one in acrylic. I know how to do Alice. I know how to do the March Hare. I know how to do the Mad Hatter. And I do that. I just got through with a bunch of it. Then I also did a guy looking miserable. And it's called “August 2019”. And it's because of everybody being shot up. It's just the guy he is looking like what is going on, and he's not happy.

NK: Have you ever painted anything that takes you back to Woodstock? A painting of what it was like that day?

GS: Yeah, I painted Woodstock. And it sold for about 17,000 bucks or 20,000 bucks. It showed something that didn't happen, but I did it on purpose. It showed the audience0020— because it was aimed at the stage from way back. And it had people that were not there, but they were part of the scene. It had Rahim Das. It he had Timothy Leary. It had Jesus. It had Buddha, but you didn't notice them because it had a whole bunch of the kids that were there dressed in the outfits of the time. So it's also colorful. You don't really notice them as being they don't look right. They fit right in. So it's aimed at this stage, and on the stage, are as many of the acts that were at Woodstock as I could jam together. And they're all kind of like taking a bow. It’s like an encore. So it was trying to jam together the idea of it, the era that it represented, the musicians that played, and a colorful people, and the size of it. The picture showed you how jammed it was. Everybody's happy, but it was full.

NK: Grace, thank you so much for chatting with me today.

GS: Oh, you're very welcome.

NK: Take care.

GS: Bye.

KG: The great Grace Slick. The one-and-only Grace Slick. She is the lead singer of Jefferson Airplane, who were among the performers at the Woodstock Music Festival. The so-called "Aquarian Exposition" got underway in Bethel, New York fifty years ago today. We reached Ms. Slick in Malibu, California.

[Music: Indie pop]

Philadelphia mayor

KG: After a gun battle in North Philadelphia yesterday, the city's mayor has doubled-down on his call for federal and state legislators to do more about gun control. In a stand-off that lasted seven hours, Philly police tried to subdue a 36-year-old man who was reportedly carrying a semi-automatic rifle and several handguns. At least six officers were injured. Today, in an emotional news conference, Mayor Jim Kenney said incidents like these cannot be tolerated any longer.

SOUNDCLIP

JIM KENNEY: As I said last night, our officers need help. They need help keeping these weapons out of the hands of the bad guys. No one should have access to the kind of weaponry and firepower that we saw in North Philadelphia yesterday. Getting relief in the form of meaningful gun control legislation will save lives. The lives of residents and the lives of men and women who are sworn to protect us. Incidents like this should not keep happening, not in our city, and not in our country. If we don't see change, gun violence will continue to ravage our communities, and tear families apart. So I say to our state and federal lawmakers step up or step aside. Yesterday, when the incident started, we had the opportunity to sit in the police detail room and listen to the transmissions of the police back and forth to each other. Training and ability was unmatched. Seven hours under gunfire. And one of the vignettes that I saw on television last night, after it was all almost all over, were the officers removing or helping remove the children from the daycare. To see our officers carrying little babies, holding kids hands, and walking them to safety showed me what those men and women are really about. [breaking down] They're about protecting us. I know we don't always do things perfectly, and there's trouble, and we stumble sometimes. But watching those officers gave me faith in this department and in this city. We'll have our violence problems. We have our crime problems. We have our poverty problems. But when it comes to reaching out and helping each other, we're there. And that's what we need to do now.

[Sound: Applause]

KG: That was Philadelphia Mayor, Jim Kenney, speaking in a news conference today.

[Music: Electronica]

London explosion

Guest: Jamie Jack

KG: "In my 20 years in the fire service, I've never seen an event of this nature." That's what London, Ontario's deputy fire chief said about what happened in his city last night. It started when a car crashed into a house. According to the city, a gas line was also hit — which led to an explosion that flattened one house and damaged others. Seven people were sent to hospital. And a woman is facing impaired driving-related charges. Jamie Jack lives behind the street where the explosion happened. We reached her in London, Ontario — earlier today.

NK: Ms. Jack, I've had a chance to look at the aerial shots of your neighbourhood. They are striking, to say the least. But it's one thing for me to watch them. But it's your backyard. What's it like to see what's there now, or what isn't there?

JAMIE JACK: It's pretty crazy that there's not a house there anymore. That's really scary. There's literally like somebody’s roof in our backyard, and on top of our roof, and our neighbour’s roof.

NK: So take us back to the moment when you realized something was wrong in your neighbourhood last night?

JJ: So it was when the explosion went off. I heard it, and I felt it. And I just looked outside, and it was all orange outside. And I started screaming and yelling for my husband to wake up. And then we went to the window, and I was like that house it's gone. I kept saying that.

NK: Before you looked outside, did you know it was an explosion right away?

JJ: No. So the explosion made my microwave door open. Because I was tired; I was about to go to bed. I was like oh my gosh, my microwave or my oven must have exploded. And then I looked at the window, and I saw some hydro wires sparking. And I was like Oh my God, like what’s going on? Like this must just be a dream or something. And that's when I started screaming. And then that's when I looked outside, and there was the house on fire.

NK: How long before you decided to leave? How did those moments unfold?

JJ: I think it was pretty quick. We kind of just went out, and just looked, and saw their roof in our backyard. I guess you don't realize how serious it is. And it wasn't stopping. And we're like okay, this is getting serious. We need to get the cat case, get the cat, we have all our personal documents in the drawer, so I literally just grabbed them and threw them in the bag, and then we left.

NK: Do you know the folks who live in the house that's not there anymore, and the ones next to it?

JJ: I don't. I only know their cats.

NK: Your cats are neighbours?

JJ: Yeah [slight chuckle]

NK: It was so close to you.

JJ: Umm hmm.

NK: Does the question what could have been, what could have happened to you and your family? How does that weigh on you?

JJ: I guess I haven't really had time to process that. I just feel like you really, really bad. It's just so devastating what happened to these people's homes, and what happened to them. I feel really, really selfish for like being concerned about what my house looks like right now.

NK: It's remarkable that no one was killed.

JJ: Yeah, so I didn't know until a while later that there was actually a car accident. And then that's when the explosion went. I thought there was some random explosion, and I kept being like oh my gosh, that family is in that house.

NK: Yeah, and the people who own the house that's completely gone now, apparently they weren't home at the time. For people who don't know London, Ontario — who don't know your neighbourhood — what kind of neighbourhood is it.

JJ: So Old East Village is definitely I guess a changing neighbourhood. It’s a very, very community-focused. You know, you walk out on your street, and you say hello to your neighbours. And you know you chat with them. You know them. Yeah, there's so much support in the community.

NK: And how are people coming together now?

JJ: Good. So like a lot of people are at the Boyle Community Centre, And I know the Pita Pit and Zenza Pizza donated some food. People are donating toothbrushes, bottles of water, stuff like that.

NK: And you went to a store nearby after you got your cat; your own store, right?

JJ: Yeah. So my family, they own a business that I run. So we were like let's just go inside the store and wait it out. And then we were with all our neighbours. And we just said do you guys want to come in? You know there was a family that had a dog, and cats, and there was a child, and there were some seniors there. So you know we all couldn’t just sit around. It was getting cold out.

NK: Have you had a chance to sleep?

JJ: No. I think my husband slept for about an hour. And he's been up since yesterday at 3 am.

NK: So are you going to be able to go home?

JJ: So they say realistically, probably not today.

NK: So where are you going to stay?

JJ: So I think we're just trying to develop a plan. My parents have texted us, called us, stuff like that, saying that they'll come and pick us up if we want to go back to their place. I'm just going to call my insurance company just to say fyi, I am sure you heard about the explosion. like we were affected. Just to kind of get a long-term plan from them.

NK: And so what is the damage to your house now? You mentioned that the other roof is in your backyard. Is there any damage to your property?

JJ: So what we know of is some damage to our door, and our sun porch windows. But we don't know about fire, smoke, or about water yet, or just from the explosion that we didn't see yet either.

NK: MS. Jack, thank you so much for speaking with me in the middle of all of this. We really appreciate it.

JJ: Yeah, you're welcome.

NK: Take care.

JJ: Okay, bye.

KG: Jamie Jack was affected by the home explosion in London, Ontario last night. That's where we reached her.

[Music: Indie pop]

Part two: SNC report: Jody Wilson-Raybould

SNC report: Jody Wilson-Raybould

Guest: Jody Wilson-Raybould

KG: The Prime Minister has made it clear, he doesn't intend to apologize for his role in the SNC-Lavalin affair. Today, he re-iterated his view that he takes full responsibility for the mess — but disagrees with some key findings by Ethics Commissioner Mario Dion. Mr. Dion released a scathing report yesterday, showing that the Prime Minister had violated conflict of interest laws when he pressured former Justice Minister and Attorney-General Jody Wilson-Raybould. Mr. Dion says it wasn't just the pressure — but argues the Prime Minister used his position to influence a decision, that would further the interests of construction company SNC-Lavalin. Jody Wilson-Raybould is in Vancouver. That's where we reached the former Liberal cabinet minister — now Independent MP.

NK: Ms. Wilson-Raybould, do you think the Prime Minister owes you an apology?

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: I mean I don't think about an apology in terms of a personal apology to me. I would think it entirely appropriate for the Prime Minister to apologize to Canadians. The Commissioner's report was very clear in terms of wrongdoing. And I was always told from a very young age that if you've done something wrong that you should apologize for it. And I think it's something that Canadians would probably like to hear.

NK: The Prime Minister did say the buck stops with me. I take full responsibility. Why isn't that enough?

JWR: People that hold public office need to have the space to have the trust of the people that elected them. And the whole discussion that is the contents of the Ethics Commissioner's report to have preoccupied Canadians for now going on eight months. And I've heard in my riding that trust has paramount in their mind in terms of public officials. And that needs to be rebuilt. And part of, in my view, rebuilding trust and rebuilding relationships is to apologize if something happened that was wrong.

NK: After the amount of pushback and backlash that you got this past winter, how did it feel to read the Ethics Commissioner's report yesterday?

JWR: Well, I — like everybody, most people I suspect — downloaded it from the internet. And read it with my first emotion was with sadness, to be very honest. And I was grateful for reading it. I was grateful for the sense of an independent officer of Parliament looking over evidence of what happened in this particular case. And reinforcing the fundamental importance of the independence of the Office of the Attorney-General, and the Director of Public Prosecutions. And what I had been saying for a long time was recognized.

NK: Were any of the details, did they surprise you?

JWR: Yes. I read the pages of Commissioner Dion's report with great interest. There were revelations in there for me. I had no knowledge that there were two legal opinions that were commissioned. And what surprised me — and concerned me more importantly — was the extent of the discussions that were had with the company, the extent of the number of different ministers and officials that were involved and in discussions, and the fact that I as the Attorney-General was not aware of any of it. That concerned me.

NK: The Ethics Commissioner says the problem here is the Prime Minister was trying to further the private interests of SNC-Lavalin. What about the very public interest that the government says it had to consider the issue of protecting thousands of jobs from being lost?

JWR: Well, I mean jobs are important. I am not discounting that isn't something that politicians — people that hold elected office — shouldn't consider. We all need to be very mindful of jobs. If it's a question of public interest, that's something that prosecutors take into account all the time. It's in their guidelines for prosecutors. It's not something that I discounted as the Attorney-General. There are a myriad of circumstances that I considered in making my decision to take no action on what the Director of Public Prosecutions decided to do. But fundamental to this discussion is the importance of not using the influence of one's office to advance the interests of somebody else.

NK: Do you think that it's possible the Prime Minister did more than break the rules on the conflict of interests, but that there was a criminal law broken here as well? Andrew Scheer is certainly suggesting that.

JWR: I leave the investigation of any criminal wrongdoing to the RCMP police. For my part, the information that I was privy to around SNC, and around the deferred prosecution agreements, and the integrity regime and the amendments to the criminal code I imparted all the relevant information that I have during the time that I was the Attorney-General. What happened outside of that relevant information is a question for other people.

NK: What do you say to people within the Liberal Party, and perhaps more importantly, voters, Canadians who can't understand why this this sort of happened. And are concerned that because you spoke out, the Conservatives may be elected this fall? What do you say to them?

JWR: Well, I mean I've heard that. I would say that in terms of my role in this, I was doing my job as the Attorney-General. I was making decisions based on my clear understanding of what that role entailed. And I was not making decisions based on politics or based on an upcoming election. I was making decisions based on the role, but on values and principles and the trust that was imparted to me as a Member of Parliament, and then as a minister. And more importantly in this case, as the Attorney-General I think it's incredibly important for constituents to people that vote for individuals to serve in public office to trust in those people. And I hope to in the lead up to October and beyond have the continued support of the constituents of Vancouver-Granville.

NK: Do you have any regrets, Ms. Wilson-Raybould?

JWR: I've been asked that question. I've thought about it a lot. I don't have any regrets about the actions that I've taken. If I was given the opportunity to do things again, I would do them exactly the same way. I regret, however, that this issue has gone on for now almost eight months when it didn't have to. I wish that this had been resolved, that wrongdoing had been acknowledged back in in February, and that we — myself included — work to ensure that it didn't happen again. And that there was an acknowledgement, and a recognition, and apology by our Prime Minister that that we can do better.

NK: Ms. Wilson-Raybould, we have to leave it there. Thank you so much for your time.

JWR: Thank you very much.

KG: Jody Wilson-Raybould is the Independent MP for Vancouver-Granville. We reached her in Vancouver.

[Music: Sombre piano]

Jay-Z

KG: Footballer Colin Kaepernick (KAP-er-nik) took to Twitter yesterday to say it had been three years since he first took a knee during the national anthem to protest "systematic oppression." Kaepernick, who is unsigned right now, faced tremendous backlash and accusations that his actions were unpatriotic. But he also drew a great deal of support for his political activism — including from Jay-Z. Now, Jay-Z is receiving some criticism himself. This week, the rapper announced that his company, Roc Nation, was entering into a partnership with the NFL. At a press conference yesterday, he said he supported protesting and didn't want people to stop taking action. But he also said it was time to move forward. Here's how he responded when he was asked if he'd kneel or stand.

SOUNDCLIP

JAY-Z: I think we passed kneeling. Yeah, I think it's time to go onto actionable items. I think everyone knows what the issue is. And we're done with that. You know what the issue is? You know we were kneeling? You know the issue? Do you know the issue? Yes. We all know the issue now. Okay, next. Where we moving on next? Again, so to be clear for the room, I'm not minimizing that part of it because that has to happen. That's a necessary part of the process. But now we all know what's going on. What are we going to do? Because the kneeling was not about a job, it was about injustice. Let me bring attention to injustice. Everyone's saying how are you going forward? And Kap doesn't have a job. This wasn't about him having a job.

KG: That was rapper Jay-Z speaking yesterday, about a new partnership with the NFL.

[Music: Brit rock]

Recession fears

Guest: Linda Nazareth

KG: "The yield curve has gone inverted." While it's not the likely tagline for the next horror film coming soon to a theatre near you, it still doesn't sound like a good thing. And it isn't, either. Around the world, analysts and investors see signs that a global recession could be on the horizon in the coming months. And Canada would almost certainly not be spared. Linda Nazareth is a senior fellow for economics and population change at the MacDonald-Laurier Institute. We reached her, in Toronto.

NK: Ms. Nazareth, how worried should we be about a global recession right now?

LINDA NAZARETH: I don't think we're there yet necessarily, but the signals are not really fantastic here. I'm not worried about recession, per say, as much as I'm worried about the trade situation, and whether that will go on a long time, and whether that will create weak economic growth for a long time? A shallow recession that's cured by policy we can get through. But if we do something to destroy good economic relations between countries, that could have an impact that goes on much longer.

NK: That's one sign, one indicator you're seeing. Are there some others you're worried about?

LN: That is the major one for me that's causing this. You know there's this expression, Nil, that business cycles don't die of old age, they're murdered. That's from Ben Bernanke, who is the head of the Federal Reserve. And he's correct, you know? It could be that a business cycle and expansion is murdered by rates that are too high, by policy that's inappropriate. In this case, it's being murdered by trade I believe that's slowing the U.S. economy. You know, in terms of things I don't like that I'm seeing, we have in Germany that seems to be contracting in terms of its economy. That's not a great sign. That's a good, solid economy with a lot of different industries. The fact that it's not doing well, not positive. China, there's a lot of signals that it's slowing down. If we look at the U.S., some things are okay, but there are signs that you are seeing a lot of caution there. Now the inverted yield curve is what got the markets all worried recently. And it's true when the yield curve looks like that you tend to have a situation that is not ideal.

NK: I wanted to ask you about that phrase inverted yield curve — because it's what people are hearing over and over again this week. But they may not completely understand what it means. So could you break it down for us, and why that is seen as such a worrying sign?

LN: Well, you know if you’re going to lend your money for a short period of time, you don't necessarily need the highest rate of interest. If you're going to lend it for longer, you want a higher rate of interest because you think there's going to be some inflation in there. You need to know that your return is going to be better. So if you're lending for 10 years, you would expect a higher-yield interest rate than if you're lending for three months. And that's why a yield curve tends to slope upward. Now what we have right now, and we keep going in and out of it, is in inverted yield curve in the U.S. — where short-term yields are higher than long term yields. When you have that, it's like the market is thinking we're going to see a slowing economy, we're going to see deflation, we're going to see interest rate cuts ahead. It tends to be a signal of recessions. Now every recession is signaled by an inverted yield curve. However, there are times when the yield curve inverts and you don't get a recession. So it's not for sure. It's certainly not something we like to see though.

NK: If a recession does come, how do you see it impacting the Canadian economy?

LN: It's hard to be shielded from a global recession if that happens. It's hard to be shielded from a U.S. recession. Do I think it'll be as bad as 2008? Probably not. I don't think we're going to look at U.S. banks failing this time around. I don't think we're going to see a U.S. housing market shake down like we did last time. So I don't think it'll be as dire. The problem here is that Canada's affected by commodity prices going lower. And as the economy weakens elsewhere that's what we see. We're already seeing that in oil prices and in other commodities. Also, if we see lower levels of trade with the U.S. that obviously impacts our industries. So I think it is a major concern. There are ways around this. The Bank of Canada has not cut rates in a while. And they don't seem to want to cut rates. If things slow down, they could certainly do that. You could certainly get more spending from the federal provincial governments if they had to. That's what you tend to have during times of recession. You know you have governments spending when business and consumer spending is down, so there's remedies to it. We also have a pretty low unemployment rate, not everywhere in the country, but overall we do. And that means there's still some room for things to slow before it comes to the kind of recessions we've seen in the past. So I'm not unduly concerned yet. I am concerned about the trade situation. I hope that turns around. I hope there's the will to turn it around — because if it did, you would see the markets improve, and you would certainly take away a lot of economic concerns.

NK: If we look at it from a political lens, U.S. President Donald Trump loves to talk about how things are good in the economy. And you know staking his re-election on that, how damaging could it be for a Trump re-election campaign?

LN: Yeah, it tends to be that politicians don't do as well when the economy's not doing well. But you can never say. In this case, President Trump is blaming the Federal Reserve in the U.S. for this thing. They raise rates when they shouldn't have. You know that's not completely false. It's possible they raised rates a little bit too much. They saw the economy getting stronger, and thought there was concerns about inflation. And they did what was prudent, which was take rates up from recession levels. And in retrospect, maybe that was a little bit too much too soon. I wouldn't blame them. But he is blaming them. And if people go along with it and say it wasn't his fault, you never know what'll happen politically.

NK: Linda, you mentioned the Central Bank, and you mentioned interest rates. How much wiggle room do they have to do that?

LN: Well, rates are relatively low right now. But you could certainly take rates down 25-50 basis points if you needed to — even more, possibly. The problem is it's not like a situation 10 years ago where they were much higher, and there was more room to cut if necessary. There's also a lot of discussion now whether lowering interest rates will make as much of a difference as it used to. When you had higher rates, and you know the old days when consumers used to borrow to buy a washing machine or a television set or whatever, you would see department stores take down rates by a percentage point or two. And people would take advantage of that by coming into the market. I'm not sure with lower rates right now whether it would have the same impact, but it would help.

NK: Linda Nazareth, I thank you for your time.

LN: Thank you.

KG: Linda Nazareth is a senior fellow at the MacDonald-Laurier Institute. We reached her, in Toronto.

[Music: Percussive jazz]

DL: Ocean City, New Jersey

KG: Dateline: Ocean City, New Jersey.

[Music: Dateline theme]

KG: Anyone who tells you you "eat like a bird" likely hasn't joined the tens of thousands of tourists who descend on the boardwalk of this Jersey Shore resort town every summer. The only creatures who rival the size of the human flock are the rapacious seagulls — who are there for one reason only: to steal food from the humans. And so there was only really ever one outcome: either the gulls would have their fill of people food — fat chance of that — or the people would become fed up with the gulls —which they did — obviously, a long time ago. But it seems the gulls have grown so fierce — and their appetites so voracious — that Hitchock himself would be horrified. As the city's mayor told The New York Times, quote, "It's reached a point where you can't eat on the boardwalk or beach without birds flying at your hands and face." Well, desperate times call for dispersing measures — which is why the city has introduced a team of bouncers to patrol the beaches. And who better to bounce a bunch of squawkers than a squadron of bigger, badder birds? Enter the East Coast Falcons. They are, in fact, a company of two falcons, four hawks, and one owl. And Ocean City has agreed to shell out more than two-thousand American clams a day just to have this razor-sharp raptor crew on duty. Their contract continues through to Labor Day, after the summer tourist swell drops dramatically. And so far, they appear to be doing a good job at clawing back the skies and beaches from the gulls — not with their actual claws, though. Although they are natural-born killers, these birds are trained not to kill their targets — just to threaten them. So I guess it's a win-win for all concerned that gulls are inherently gullible.

[Music: Hip-hop]

FOA: Hunky Bill

KG: If you visited Vancouver's Pacific National Exhibition sometime over the last half-century, you might have run into Bill Konyk — where the Winnipeg-born man sold his Ukranian-style perogies under the name "Hunky Bill". Mr. Konyk died of cancer this week. He was 88 years old. In 1980, the Ukrainian Canadian Professional and Business Association of Vancouver filed a human rights complaint against Mr. Konyk over his nickname — arguing that it was derogatory. From our archives, here's how the CBC covered that story back then.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: No what are you going to do if the B.C. Human Rights branch tells you to stop using the name Hunky Bill?

BILL KONYK: I won't stop using. It's been here for years, it's here now, and it's gonna be here, and I'll pass it on to my kids. They have to give me a good reason. It’s me I'm calling. I'm not calling anybody else. Somebody doesn't like it they don't have do business with me.

REPORTER: Hunky Bill Konyk’s spirit was as sunny as the day itself, when he arrived at the restaurant and pub baring his controversial ethnic nickname. He's delighted he won the case.

BK: I was proud to be Canadian. I really felt good the fact that. This country is still free, and the tail does not wag the dog.

REPORTER: Konyk has always been proud of his Ukrainian heritage, and the Hunky Bell nickname that stuck since high school days in Winnipeg. He's built a thriving business on it. And he was amazed when the Ukrainian Canadian Professional and Business Association of Vancouver found it a racial slur, and took him to the Human Rights branch.

BK: I feel sorry for them, and maybe a little embarrassment for them — because they're going to have to face their friends in the community, and say I'm the one that chased after Hunky Bill. And the majority on any talk show I’ve been on, or letters to the editor, the majority is on my side.

REPORTER: The Human Rights Code does not prohibit the use of words that offend people. Rather it prohibits the use of words which objectively discriminate against people. In this case, the Human Rights branch which judges racial charges dismissed the complaint — saying Konyk had no intent to discriminate.

KG: A CBC report from the early '80s about Hunky Bill, a fixture at the P-N-E. Bill Konyk has died at 88.

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August 15, 2019 episode transcript

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