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The AIH Transcript for October 4, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight…

CO: Waiting on the swings. A handful of U.S. senators are the swing votes who will determine whether Judge Brett Kavanaugh is confirmed. Our guest is among hundreds in Washington pressuring her senator to vote no.

JD: Ending demonic possession. Very soon hundreds of Canadians will have a criminal record for something that will not be illegal — possessing pot. Ao one MP has set out to change that.

CO: Never far from the surface. A 1921 massacre still haunts Tulsa, Oklahoma. And now the mayor says he'll investigate the possible existence of mass graves of murdered African-Americans.

JD: No Exit. Earlier this week an exiled Saudi journalist entered his country's consulate in Istanbul. Since then, neither he nor a convincing explanation has emerged.

CO: Covering our track. The As It Happens theme song challenge is open to anyone who knows the music you're hearing right now backwards and forwards — although, you should perform forwards.

JD: And a shoulder to cry on and on about. Actually, her opponents have cried about each of Alma Keuhl’s arms — both of which she is about to use at the world arm wrestling championships. As It happens: The Thursday Edition. Radio whose guests are sometimes tough to come to grips with.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Kavanaugh: Maine lobbyist, Saudi journalist mystery, Arm wrestling champ

Kavanaugh: Maine lobbyist

Guest: Diane Russell

JD: The FBI probe is complete and today, hour-by-hour, U.S. senators from each party have had the chance to review the single and confidential copy of the Bureau's report into allegations of sexual assault by Judge Brett Kavanaugh. Unsurprisingly perhaps, the two parties interpreted the findings very differently. Here is what Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell had to say earlier today.

SOUNDCLIP

MITCH MCCONNELL: So what did we learn? What are the facts and the evidence tell us after seven FBI investigations? The fact is that these allegations have not been corroborated. None of the allegations have been corroborated by the 7th FBI investigation. Not in the new FBI investigation, not anywhere. So none of these last minute allegations have been corroborated, as is confirmed by the seventh and latest FBI investigation. As Chairman Grassley stated this morning, neither the Judiciary Committee nor the FBI could locate any third parties who can attest to any of these allegations.

JD: Republican Senate leader Mitch McConnell speaking earlier today. Senate Democrats had a very different take. Here is Senate Democratic leader Chuck Schumer.

SOUNDCLIP

CHUCK SCHUMER: We had many fears that this was a very limited process that would constrain the FBI from getting all the facts. Having received a thorough briefing on the documents those fears have been realized. Second, I disagree — having received this briefing on all of the documents — I disagree with Senator Grassley’s statement that there was no hint of misconduct. And third, we are reiterating our call given how limited these documents were and how limited the scope of this investigation was — we are reiterating our call that the documents with proper redaction be made public. Why shouldn't all of America see the facts?

JD: Senator Chuck Schumer. Meanwhile protests rocked the capital.

SOUNDCLIP

ANTI-KAVANAUGH PROTESTERS CHANTING

JD: Former Maine State Representative Diane Russell is one of the many in D.C. today. Her senator Republican Susan Collins is seen as a key swing vote in the confirmation of Judge Brett Kavanaugh. We reached Ms. Russell outside Senator Collins office.

CO: Ms. Russell, as you know the clock is ticking. What hope do you have at this point that Senator Susan Collins will break with her Republican Party and vote against Brett Kavanaugh?

DIANE RUSSELL: Well, I think she's hearing from a significant number of constituents right now, many of whom have stories of personal sexual violence of some kind. And we are seeing a significant number of people from Maine showing up and telling their stories. So we're hopeful that eventually her humanity and her womanhood are going to come through.

CO: You haven't had one on one or you haven't been in the room with her directly. But others in the group that you're with right now outside the office they have had a chance to have a closer encounter. What did they say about how Senator Collins response to the kinds of things that you're talking about?

DR: So the folks that met with her last week felt that she really heard their stories and took them to heart. I know that they feel that if she votes for Kavanaugh that they are going to feel remarkably betrayed. Other folks have heard that she told them that she thought that there was no corroboration of the evidence and that's disappointing to hear.

CO: How did you respond to that because that was really quite crucial, wasn't it? She saw the evidence, She saw what the FBI had come up with and she said ‘Well it appears to be very thorough.’

DR: I would respectfully disagree. All of the news accounts demonstrate that some key people did not hear from the FBI. Many of them made repeated requests, some of those folks could corroborate Brett Kavanaugh's behaviour, or alleged behaviour in many ways — his drinking to excess and his partying behaviour and his demeaning demeanor toward women. Senator Gillibrand just spoke out in front of the Supreme Court. She did read the report and she said that there is nothing thorough about it.

CO: But so why do you think — because this is, it's interesting because she is very popular with women, even Democrat women in the state of Maine. She has opposed the Trump candidacy for president in the past, she has stood up to him when he made the remarks the other day in Mississippi. She called them just plain wrong. She has vowed that she would not support a Supreme Court nominee who had some hostility to Roe vs. Wade, which is your landmark decision on abortion. All of these things would point to her having a real problem with Brett Kavanaugh. But why do you think she might be leaning toward voting in favour of his nomination?

DR: Senator Collins currently has a pharmaceutical drug bill on the president's desk that she really wants him to sign. There are also government contracts for Bath Iron works and the shipyard, I'm sure, that are on the table. And I imagine that those contract will be very generous if she votes with Republicans and they will be cut if she does not.

CO: And so she's trying to represent people in Maine as best as she can? Is that your impression?

DR: That would be her representing a very small group of people in Maine as opposed to the significant opposition of voters across the board.

CO: But now, how are people in Maine, especially women, how are they making it known to Ms. Collins that they want her to vote against him?

DR: You really can't go anywhere without seeing people protesting at some hours of the day. You can't walk into her office without people being there. You can't watch the news without there being arrests, or you can't watch social media without there being letter-drops where people have written handwritten letters. I think, honestly, the organizational level of all the people that are protesting and doing all of this is actually more than it was for the Affordable Care Act. And it is all one-sided.

CO: I understand among the things that have been mailed to Senator Collins along with the postcards and letters that they've been sending her coat hangers, which is, of course, a symbol for the idea that there would be a return of backstreet abortions — pretty graphic message they're sending to her. But now what pressure do you think she is under from fellow Republican senators?

DR: I think she’s under intense pressure from other Republican Senators. Mitch McConnell made a deal with the devil over Merrick Garland. And I believe that they made a huge risk in stalling that nomination. And this is the one opportunity they have to win big. And this is something that those Republican senators have been promising to evangelical and Catholic Republicans for decades. And this is their one last opportunity to do it because they know that the demographics are shifting.

CO: But isn't it possible there's still time even if Judge Kavanaugh is defeated, that they could still squeak through another candidate, that there could be somebody else on Donald Trump's list that could still become Supreme Court justice?

DR: That's actually an argument we made in the meeting with Senator Collins staff, like are there no other conservative judges who are qualified to be on the bench? The difference is that Kavanaugh believes in a unilateral executive with virtually unchecked power.

CO: Just finally what happens if, as early as this weekend, your Senator, Susan Collins ,votes yes to Brett Kavanaugh?

DR: I don't want to imagine what that looks like. And I don't mean that because I don't want to imagine him on the Supreme Court. Obviously, I don't know much about the Supreme Court. I mean, I don't want to imagine the outrage back home. And honestly, there's a lot of people counting on me to do what we can to make the right case. There are a lot of people and I will have let them down in ways that I can't recount. And I will forever regret that.

CO: And what about the people back home? How will they respond?

DR: She will never, never be able to walk into a grocery store again. When you walk into a grocery store and people are coming up to you saying ‘You've betrayed. How could you possibly?’ When you go to the gas station and you walk in and someone says ‘Oh, you're the woman who sold my rights away. Did you know I was a rape survivor?’ Imagine spending the rest of your life in the state that you grew up in and not be able to walk down the street because people are going to constantly be telling you and reminding you that you took a terrible vote and let people down and that you betrayed them. That's humbling and that is something that I would never want to do.

CO: It's a very difficult choice ahead of her for Senator Susan Collins. Ms. Russell, I appreciate speaking with you, thank you.

DR: Thank you. I appreciate it.

JD: We reached Diane Russell outside Senator Susan Collins’ office in Washington D.C. A procedural vote is scheduled for tomorrow in the Senate, clearing the way for a final confirmation vote on Brett Kavanaugh on Saturday.

[Music: Guitar Plucks]

Saudi journalist mystery

Guest: Karen Attiah

On Tuesday exiled Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi walked into his country's consulate in Istanbul for some routine paperwork. His friends and family say he has not come out. Mr. Khashoggi has become a critic of the Saudi government and has written frequently for the Washington Post. So far, however, the Saudi Arabians claim that they don't have him and that he went safely on his way after his visit to the consulate. Karen Attiah is his editor at The Washington Post. We reached her in Washington, D.C.

CO: Karen, first of all, tell us why Jamal Khashoggi went to the Saudi consulate in Turkey on Tuesday? What was he doing there?

KAREN ATTIAH: So, what we know so far, pretty much, is that he has a Turkish fiancée and he was looking to complete some paperwork relating to his upcoming potential marriage to the fiancée.

CO: So he went in there and he didn't come out?

KA: Correct. He just went in and did not come out. We have not heard from him since.

CO: What concerns did he have about going there because he is not exactly well-loved by Saudi Arabia, by the government? And so was he worried at all? Did he express to you or to anyone that he had concerns about this visit?

KA: I do know that his fiancée did indeed say that he was worried about going to the consulate but that he had received assurances from his diplomatic friends that he would be fine with going.

CO: And his fiancée was waiting for him outside? Is that right?

KA: Correct, waiting for him outside. He had given her several numbers to call if he did not come out again indicating that he was a little nervous about going to the consulate in the first place. And then he did not come out.

CO: What did she do? How long did she stay there?

KA: So she stayed there for several hours after the consulate had closed and even the next day. She reportedly went back with a number of other journalists to demand his release. My understanding is that she is not well over the situation. But again, have been reports of journalists that have been gathering, particularly the Turkish-Arab journalists coalition that is gathering, to pressure and demand answers basically.

CO: Is there any chance that he could have left and she didn't know about it?

KA: I'm sure that is what's been on all of our minds right now, obviously. The Saudi authorities are maintaining that he left the consulate and their latest statement saying that they're cooperating with Turkish authorities to try to find him. The Turkish official position from the presidential spokesperson is that they have reason to believe that he is still there.

CO: As with all consulates it’s the local authorities who provide the police forces, the host country. Turkish police, who are the security at the consulate, they say they've checked the security cameras and did not see Mr. Khashoggi leave the building on foot. But they do say that a number of diplomatic cars had been moving in and out of the consulate since Tuesday. So is that where your concerns lie?

KA: Sure. I think there's that and there are just concerns that, frankly, that we're hearing very, very different and conflicting theories and explanations from the Saudis and the Turkish authorities. And from our efforts at The Post, you know, we really have reached out to both Saudi and Turkish authorities. So we hope that the Turks can pressure their Saudi counterparts for information and for answers. I'm sure in an ideal situation there are CCTV cameras and then show us the tapes of what the Saudis are saying is true that Jamal actually didn't leave, then there should be evidence of that.

CO: Why would Saudi Arabia take him? Why would they detain Jamal Khashoggi?

KA: As someone who's worked with him, in fact, I saw him a few weeks ago here in Washington where he has been living for about the past year or so — he has been critical of the Saudi government, in particular the Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. Obviously, this is all happening against the backdrop of a wave of crackdowns on dissent in Saudi Arabia. Just a few days ago a Essam al-Zamil, the Economist was charged with terrorism after being detained for nearly a year as well. Women activists, plenty of other journalists and clerics — so this the mystery surrounding Jamal's happening against this backdrop. And we were publishing more of his pieces in Arabic and a do know that is something that the Saudi authorities are sensitive to. But again, I think Jamal always told me that he did not want to be labeled as a dissident or as an opposition journalist. He really just wanted to write, and often a lot of his work was even advising Mohammad Bin Salman about ‘Here's what I think you should do.’ We forget that Jamal was formerly a royal family adviser at one point. So it is really quite stunning to see what's been happening in the kingdom in general, just seeing their intolerance for dissent could make Jamal a target, absolutely.

CO: As you point out, he was — formerly he was an adviser to the royal family. So what changed him? Why did he turn against this particular regime?

KA: So the very first piece that I commissioned and edited for him last September the title was ‘Saudi Arabia was always repressive, now it's becoming unbearable.’ He basically just a lot of his friends getting swept up in the crackdowns. He saw friends being imprisoned, having travel bans slapped on them. And at the time he wrote in Saudi Arabia we deserve better than this. And this is, again, a kingdom that is showing even under this new crown prince a total intolerance for any sort of dissent or criticism of their policy.

CO: We know that as Mohammed bin Salman has consolidated his power he has, as you point out, arrested hundreds of clerics, activists, business people — numbers of them were detained outside the country. What became of them? Is there any record of people getting released? Is there is a pattern that you might be able to give you hope that Jamal Khashoggi might emerge from this if he is being detained by the Saudis?

KA: That's the difficult part. Again, we know of activists and journalists and social media stars that have been held for months, a year even, before being charged with anything. So yes, we're very worried, but again, just very hopeful that keeping a spotlight on his name and on this case, both here in the U.S. and abroad, can help for a speedy resolution.

CO: All right, we'll be watching. Karen, thank you.

KA: Thank you so, so much.

JD: Karen Attiah is the Washington Post's global opinions editor. We reached her in Washington, D.C.

[Music: 90’s Spanish Guitar]

Arm wrestling champ

Guest: Alma Keuhl

JD: If you go into battle with Alma Keuhl either you're going to end up laying down your arms or she will almost certainly do it for you. Ms. Keuhl is an arm wrestler — and she is strong. In her weight class she is ranked second in Canada with her right arm, third with her left. And later this month she's going to be taking both those arms to Turkey where she will compete against athletes from 45 other countries at the World Arm Wrestling Championships. We reached Alma Keuhl in Beachburg, Ontario.

CO: Alma, did you inherit your talent for arm wrestling.

ALMA KEUHL: I did for sure.

CO: Who did you get it from?

AK: I got it from both my parents and my grandma.

CO: And they were good at arm wrestling?

AK: They were amazing at arm wrestling.

CO: Did you wrestle them?

AK: Well, not my grandma, but my dad and my mom, definitely.

CO: And did they usually win?

AK: Well, yeah. It's more of a respect thing for me.

CO: When did you start when did you start to smoke them?

AK: Well instead to smoke my mom probably around the age of 18. And my dad, well, it’s really hard to beat him.

CO: So good to practice with your dad?

AK: Exactly.

CO: And what about that grandmother of yours?

AK: Oh, she's still brick laying at her age.

CO: How old is she now?

AK: She's in her 70s. And to be honest, I rather lie about her age.

CO: And you're not wrestling her because you're afraid to?

AK: Yes.

CO: So obviously it runs in the way you inherited it. But when did you first get interested in competition in arm wrestling?

AKO: About 15 years old actually.

CO: What’s the story? How did that come about?

AK: Well, my dad and I said my mom, we were invited on this — it was Allen Hitman, he was doing a fundraiser for himself and he said ‘I will give off a camera to whoever can beat me.’ And I'm like ‘Free camera, right?’ So we went in and my dad won the camera and they offered by parents to go and train with them. But they didn't really know much about myself but I wanted to give it a shot. So my dad got me to the practice and they saw a lot of potential in me. They're like ‘At 15 years old you're pulling this much? You gotta continue with this.’

CO: What did you think of that when they told you that?

AK: It really was something huge for me. I never really had something as big as this for someone to actually take initiative in me. It's just a light in the dark hole basically.

CO: Why was the hole dark?

AK: I mean, growing up I really hated my arms. My arms were big — big arms. And I never really liked it because dresses didn't fit right, shirts didn't look good. I was a real big kid and I just absolutely hated my arms. But then when they said at ‘Look at the size of your arms, you're going to be amazing.’ I actually got a confidence boost to continue.

CO: What’s the toughest part of it? When you're doing arm wrestling competitively, what do you have to do in order to do well? What makes a champ?

AK: What really helps me is if I have the mental power. I have huge anxiety when I'm going up I'm like ‘Oh, God,’ like I'm nervous just as much as the next person. But if you have your head in the game you go a lot further.

CO: You have to stay very focused, then? What are you focusing on? Are you looking into the eyes of the person you're against or what are you doing?

AK: Mentally I'm focusing on the prize basically eyes on the medal. That's my motive. My other motive though, I don't do anything to my opponent. I don't like psyching them out. I'm a very kind-hearted person I find — I'm bubbly happy-go-lucky. But when I go on that table I turn to someone different that you’d never want to see — like a big bear.

CO: Do you scare them, your opponents?

AK: I've been told that I do scare my opponents. I yell. I really do yell.

CO: What do you mean you yell? Are you doing that before, during and after or is that just your victory cry?

AK: During.

CO: Oh, ok.

AK: It's like a battle cry.

CO: Well give it to us. Give us a full-throated battle cry then.

AK: I really cannot.

CO: Okay. I had a half-hearted battle cry. What does it sound like?

AK: It goes like that.

CO: And you’re doing this while you’ve got your grip on somebodies hand? Can you see them just shake?

AK: Oh, sometimes I feel they're arm kind of lessen up. They just kind of give you a really weird look. Sometimes when I compete they’re like ‘What is she doing?’ It just startles them. And it’s sometimes why I win.

CO: How has it changed you, being involved in arm wrestling?

AK: It has changed me in a lot of ways. It got me out of depression, it saved me a lot. Arm wrestling is not just a sport for me, it’s not just a hobby for me. This is something that I need. It gives me a confidence, it empowers me. I can't describe it, to be honest. Arm wrestling is just my life, it's a part of me and it's in my blood. And I feel like I have soared in my wings are now flying high.

CO: and how strong are you? Each Arm is actually accredited with tremendous strength. What do they tell you about how strong your arms are?

AK: When I'm competing against the girls they really don't move me. I can hold them and hold them and hold them and they won't budge. When I'm going against the men, now that's fun. Last night, I had a practice and he's like ‘Oh, my god, you are ready. You are burning.’ I mean, my coach, he's a taekwondo specialist. He said ‘I can't move my arm.’ I pinned him and it was — I couldn't believe it myself. I took down my own coach.

CO: Wow. When he says you're ready, you're burning, you're ready this is for Turkey. You're headed there next week for the world championships, aren't you?

AK: Exactly, yes I am.

CO: And are you psyched for that?

AK: I am super, super happy I made it. I'm a little nervous, not gonna lie there. But I’m super happy that I'm doing this for my country and I'm super happy for doing this for my clients, my family and my friends.

CO: Alma Keuhl, you make us proud.

AK: Appreciate it.

CO: And we'll be watching you in Turkey. Best of luck to you there.

AK: Thank you so much.

CO: Take care.

JD: Alma Keuhl is an arm wrestler heading to the World Arm Wrestling Championships in Turkey next month, representing Canada. We reach her in Beachburg, Ontario. And we have more on him Ms. Keuhl’s story, including some video on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Whimsical Strings]

Part 2: Pot convictions, Tulsa mass graves

Pot convictions

Guest: Murray Rankin

JD: The time is nigh. In less than two weeks pot will be legal in Canada. No one is going to be busted for having their own personal stash or growing a few plants in their backyard. But people convicted of pot possession charges in the past are still going to have a criminal record. The NDP wants to change that. Today the party's Justice critic introduced a private member's bill to wipe those records clean. We reached Murray Rankin in Ottawa.

CO: Mr. Rankin, why do you want to expunge these criminal records?

MURRAY RANKIN: I believe that offenses that were created before October 17 for activities will be perfectly legal after October 17 ought not to be a burden for people who are now with a criminal record. People who can't rent houses or apartments because they have a criminal record and they're put to the bottom of the list by the landlord, or people who want to chaperone their kids school trip and they have a criminal record, or people who want to coach soccer and unable to do so because of a record. It seems to me that's unfair because the activity for which they have a conviction won't be illegal after October 17.

CO: But all kinds of laws evolve and change over the years and people would say ‘Well it was illegal at the time, they were caught they were convicted of a crime. They broke the law. They knew it was the law.’ So why shouldn't that remain on their record?

MR: That is certainly the counterargument. I think there's two things I would say. First, I believe society's views of this activity have evolved a great deal. We used to have laws against possessing alcohol and in the prohibition of course and those things changed. But secondly, and more importantly, Carol, is the fact that Indigenous people and African-Canadian people, if you will, are being arrested and have criminal records in a disproportionate amount. Some Freedom Of Information work suggests that in Toronto you're three times more likely to be arrested if you're Black than if you're not Black. In Regina, nine times as much if you are an Indigenous person. So it seems to me the disproportionate impact of these laws is something we really need to look at.

CO: I just want for people to be clear. Because your bill, private members bill, deals with pot possession. You're not looking to have trafficking or any other drug related crimes forgiven.

MR: No, absolutely not. Only covering those things — possession less than 30 grams or plants less than four that are being cultivated, which will be perfectly legal within two weeks. I'm only talking about those things, not possession of large quantities, not trafficking, nothing else.

CO: How many people do you estimate have records for pot possession like that?

MR: You know, I've been told numbers that I cannot believe, but I've heard that it's 500,000 people going back, of course, decades. But certainly it's in the hundreds of thousands. Coast-to-coast-to-coast.

CO: And how would their lives change do you think if they had this expunged?

MR: Well, the purpose of expungement rather than just a pardon I think is important. It may be that you still could face consequences if you have a pardon. You still have to pay $631 dollars, it takes you a long time to get a record suspension or pardon. My bill would be an expungement, which therefore would allow you to assume that it never happened, it would be deemed in law that you were never convicted, and therefore when you want to chaperoning your daughter, you can honestly say you do not have a criminal record.

CO: And that would also be expunged for those who are trying to cross into the United States who can’t because of the record.

MR: One would hope so, the logic is there but, of course, I can't control what the United States does. It may be having, for example, all databases which still show people with criminal records for this, one hopes that the database in Canada will be changed, of course, and then the Americans use the same data. But I would never want to guess what the Americans will do.

CO: We've heard Liberal cabinet minister Bill Blair yesterday. He said that once marijuana is legalized, as you mentioned October 17^th, he said that the Liberal government will address this issue of criminal records in quote “an appropriate way.” And we heard Ralph Goodale, the Public Safety Minister, a while ago he said the Government would look to ways to make things fair. So what is all that add up to? Do you think the Liberals are supporting your private member's bill?

MR: We're going to find out because I intend to ask them on October 17th. But honestly I do hope they do. This is not a partisan issue. I think if they characterize it, as I do, as a justice issue, I'm hopeful they'll do it. I think they could have done and should have done when they introduced the cannabis bill in the first place. California brought in similar measures, Vermont did. But I get that they're now saying let's wait until the bill comes into force. And so I'm trying to use this private member's bill as an effort to kind of nudge them to do the right thing. I'm hopeful they will.

CO: But if it seems likely that they are going to do what you're proposing then why not just wait for that? Why make this noise now when it's likely just going to evolve in that direction anyway?

MR: Well, maybe you're more optimistic than I am. They've certainly talked about this in vague terms. I want to commit them to a bill. This bill has gone through several drafts with the same kind of legislative drafters who work for the government. And I'm hoping they'll say this is it. If they want to tweak it, if they want to approve it and run with it, nothing would make me happier. But I do not want this to simply linger. It seems to me an issue that needs to be addressed because we're imposing burdens on hundreds of thousands of Canadians that simply should not have them going forward.

CO: We recall that the Stephen Harper government imposed mandatory minimum sentences of six months for any pot possession of six plants or less, which I understand a number of people were affected by that. We spoke with Julian Fantino just a while ago who is a minister in that cabinet who supported those mandatory minimum sentences, he is now in the business. He says that pot is a wonderful therapy for people and a great business opportunity. What do you say to those who supported this in the past and now see it as an opportunity for them?

MR: Well, I'm not going to comment on the business decisions that they made and what some would see as a slightly hypocritical position. I understand what you're suggesting, but truly this has to be something that the Liberals and the Conservatives support. This is something that we should all pass, ideally by unanimous resolution if possible, so we can right this injustice going forward.

CO: Do you think the Conservatives will support your bill?

MR: You know, I've talked to a couple of them I'm the co-chaire of the Justice Committee so I'm dealing with the right people, and I've talked to one so far and I hope that they will. I think they get the basic point about the injustice and I'm hoping, like me, that they see that society has changed and things that might have been treated one way back 20-30 years ago is treated in a very different way today. We've seen that all over the place in other areas. Same-sex activity — there was an expungement bill as you know in the last parliament that dealt with that. And those people who had convictions for that activity. I think, although very different, this approach is very analogous.

CO: All right, we'll be watching. Mr. Rankin, thank you.

MR: Thank you.

JD: Murray Rankin is the NDP’s justice critic. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music: Trance Bass]

Tulsa mass graves

Guest: Mechelle Brown

JD: In 1921 a white mob attacked a prosperous predominantly African-American neighbourhood in Tulsa Oklahoma known as Black Wall Street. It has been called the Tulsa Race Massacre and it has been described as one of the worst instances of racial violence in the history of the United States. Over the years, there have been suggestions that there could be mass graves in Tulsa. And this week the city's mayor said it would be investigating whether that was, in fact, the case. Mechelle Brown works at the Greenwood Cultural Center and gives historical tours about what happened in 1921. We reached Ms. Brown in Tulsa.

CO: Ms. Brown, why has it taken until now for an investigation like this to happen?

MECHELLE BROWN: That's a great question and I think that we finally have a mayor who is courageous enough to approach the situation and incident, and to actually move forward and re-initiate the investigation.

CO: We're talking about an event from 1921, the spring of 1921, that meant that mobs, white mobs, set fire to hundreds of businesses and homes, whole city blocks. Hundreds of people dead 10,000 homeless and we don't know the whole story. So maybe just to start off, tell us how this began? It began quite simply, didn't it?

MB: It did. And it's a story that was all too common during that period, the inflammatory accusation that a young black man had assaulted a white woman in an elevator in broad daylight in downtown Tulsa. When he got into the elevator as he did every day as a shoe shine boy, he was given special permission to go into the Drexel Building and get water and use the restroom. Every day he encountered Sarah Page on the elevator. This particular day after the elevator doors closed and Dick Rowland and Sara Page are alone. There's a scream from the elevator, the elevator doors open and Dick Rowland takes off running. He's later arrested and taken to the jailhouse/courthouse and the accusation is made that Sarah Page had been assaulted. And as the stories circulated throughout Tulsa throughout the day, it went from claims that she had been assaulted to she was sexually assaulted — by the end of the day they were claiming that she had been raped. And this infuriated a mob of angry whites who were determined to take matters into their own hands. Lynchings were all too common in Tulsa. Dick Rowland was arrested and whites began to gather in front of the courthouse angry and upset about what had happened. About 40 black men approached the courthouse initially and spoke with the sheriff at that time and offered to help protect Dick Rowland. He told them to go back to Greenwood that he had everything under control and Dick Roland would be fine. So they did return to Greenwood. But some estimates have it that there were as many as 10,000 whites that had gathered in front of the courthouse/jailhouse later that evening angry and upset determined to take matters into their own hands. And a group of about 100 Black Men returned, and this time a white man approached a black man with a gun and said “What are you going to do with that gun?” He said “I'm going to use that if I have to,” and they began to struggle over the gun. And during the struggle the gun goes off and at that point they forget all about Dick Rowland and Sarah Page. There's an all-out battle in front of the courthouse. Blacks retreat to the Greenwood district and whites slowly advance toward the Greenwood district, eventually breaking through the barriers that African-Americans had set up protecting their community. But because they were so outnumbered and outgunned, eventually whites are able to overtake the blacks and invade their community. And when they do so they invade, killing, looting stealing. And within a short day, by the following day, more than 35 square blocks of property have been completely destroyed. A thousand homes burned to the ground. 300 black-owned businesses completely destroyed. Not only were they shooting, but they were also dropping nitroglycerin bombs from airplanes that had been borrowed from a local oil company.

CO: And this is described in a 2001 report by the Oklahoma Commission to study Tulsa Race Riots. This was probably the only time that the United States, in any community, has been bombed from the air.

MB: That's correct.

CO: What do we know about what happened to those remains?

MB: Well, what we know is that the entire population of the African-American community was 10,000-12,000. 6,000 of those people were held in internment camps. That left 4,000-6,000 people unaccounted for. And we know that there were people that fled. So there's no way of knowing exactly how many people lost their lives. But we do believe that the number is even higher than the 300 that has been recognized. We do know that there were several mass grave sites that were set up and a lot of that is based on oral histories. And what we have been told from, not only our survivors — we identified 162 survivors in 1996 that began telling their stories — but also from whites that wanted to call and speak anonymously about the dump trucks that would drive through the streets of the Greenwood district pick up dead bodies and then go dump them in the Arkansas River. We know that there was a mass grave site at Oak Lawn Cemetery based on the testimony of a man who happened to be a young boy at the time that the riots took place. And he was playing in the area when he saw a group of white men piling bodies into an open plot at Oak Lawn Cemetery. And we did some preliminary investigative work there years ago and that geophysical search determined that there was a mass grave site. There was reason to believe that there was a mass grave site, but we were not given permission to do the archaeological work that needs to be done. And so we're hoping with this new decision from the mayor to move forward with that investigation that we will finally be able to do a thorough and very complete investigation. At least with Oak Lawn Cemetery we are almost positive that we will find a mass grave site there.

CO: I was reading some of the comments that were on the Facebook page of the mayor, the mayor making the statement that he is giving the green light for this investigation to happen. People writing that they'd never heard of this, their family comes from Tulsa. They grew up there and they didn't know anything about this. They there never studied in school. How is it that so few people know the history of this story?

MB: Well, following the events of the riot — and during my conversations with some of the survivors when we were identifying survivors we asked them that very question. Why did they not share this history with their children and grandchildren? And some of the comments were that they didn't want to pass on those feelings of anger and resentment and bitterness that they felt. And you have to remember that African-Americans came back to a community that was completely devastated, they had nothing but the clothes on their back. But there were more churches in North Tulsa that all of Tulsa combined. And they decided almost as a community that they were going to simply put this into God's hands and focus on moving forward. So blacks didn't talk about it, whites didn't want to talk about it either because many of them participated in the event. They wanted to forget about it. They moved on, went back to work, went back to their normal lives as if nothing had happened. And so year-after-year goes by blacks aren't talking about, whites on talking about it. So today we have a community where people have been born and raised here and know very little about the events of the riot turned massacre or Black Wall Street.

CO: People now want to know the truth but are they concerned, are you concerned, about a lot of feelings being stirred up?

MB: I'm not concerned about feelings being stirred up because I think that we have dealt with that for the 21 years that I have been here at the Greenwood Cultural Center given historical tours. Those feelings have never truly been buried. We've always dealt with the attitude from some whites that this is Tulsa's started a little secret, why are we talking about it, why is it important. We had a woman just a year ago or so say to us, ‘Why can't you get over it?’ Like ‘Why can't you just move forward?’ And we know that our community still deals with the emotions of resentment and hurt, pain, anger, frustration. We still carry those feelings with us. But I'm not worried about stirring up any feelings or animosity because it's important, it's something that has to be done in order for us to move forward.

CO: Astonishing story. Ms. Brown, I really appreciate you talking to us. Thank you.

MB: Thank you.

JD: Mechelle Brown is the program coordinator at the Greenwood Cultural Center. We reached her in Tulsa, Oklahoma. We have more on the story, including photographs of that horrific violence from 1921 on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Trance Bass]

As it Happens Theme Song Challenge

JD: When you mention the name of this program, As It Happens, in conversation there's a funny thing that happens. You say the name of the show most people just can't help but launch into bop, bop bop bop, bop bop bop. It's almost Pavlovian. Well it is our 50^th anniversary this year and we invite you, dare you, to take the As It Happens theme song challenge. Here's how it works. You record a video of yourself performing the As It Happens theme. You sing, you hum, whistle whatever it is. Do an interpretive dance if that's your thing. Anything goes. There's a karaoke track you can sing along with on our website and then you e-mail or tweet your video to us. We will feature our favourite submissions in a compilation video. And if your submission makes the cut you could wins sweet As It Happens swag. We’re talking and tees and totes. Now I know that some of you may feel shy about singing, but remember this, when you belt out the As It Happens theme you will be joining a mighty chorus of voices that have been singing along for decades. Like this listener from Newmarket, Ontario, Pickles. From our archives, here is former As It Happens host Mary Lou Finlay speaking with Pickles owner Nancy Lopresti in 2005.

SOUNDCLIP

NANCY LOPRESTI: She’s just a very sweet friendly dog.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Blonde or brunette?

NL: She's blonde with a little bit of apricot on her.

MLF: Oh, how lovely. So she likes the theme song, does she?

NL: Yes, she does.

MLF: How does she demonstrate her fondness?

NL: Well, originally Tom plays electric guitar, and he was playing one day and I was in the kitchen.

MLF: Tom's your husband?

NL: Yes.

MLF: OK.

NL: Next thing you knew we could hear this noise and I thought it was him and he thought it was me — and then we realized it was the dog. And she was howling away to the music he was playing. And one day we were in the car and As It Happens was playing and she started to howl to that. And since then she has done it on cue. You come on at 6:30 and she just puts her head back and away she goes. And I think the tip-off is when you say ‘Hello, I'm Mary Lou Finlay,’ and her ears just perk right up and then when the music starts away she goes.

MLF: Now we could take that howling any one of two ways, I guess, couldn't we?

NL: Oh, I think it's a happy howl.

MLF: Oh, good.

NL: I think so. We have a lot of music in our house and I think that she just reacts to it.

MLF: So should we give it a whirl? Is she there?

NL: She's here and I'll put it on, just one moment.

MLF: Are you going to play the theme for her?

NL: I'm going to play it for her. Just a second.

[DOG BARKS]

MLF: Clearing her throat.

[AS IT HAPPENS THEME PLAYS]

[PICKLES HOWLING]

NL: How’s that?

MLF: Oh, that's lovely. What a beautiful voice she has. You thought that was Tom when you first heard it?

NL: I'm sorry. You know what; I gotta turn it down so I can hear you. Hang on.

MLF: I said she has a lovely voice but I was a little concerned that you thought that was Tom when you first heard it and he thought it was you.

NL: Yes, that's right. Well, we don't sound like that. We just thought somebody was fooling around. We just couldn't believe it was the dog, you know.

MLF: Every night?

NL: Every night at 6:30 she does this. And the music has something to do with it because after you talk for a while you play the music again, she starts to howl again.

MLF: Lovely to hear her today.

NL: Thank you.

MLF: Shall we do that one more time?

NL: We'll do it again.

MLF: Okay.

NL: Just one moment. Gonna clear your throat Pickles?

[AS IT HAPPENS THEME PLAYS]

[PICKLES HOWLING]

JD: It warms the heart. From our archives, former As It Happens host Mary Lou Finlay in conversation with Nancy Lopresti and Pickles on April 5^th, 2005. Well, listen if Pickles the toy poodle can do it so can you. Take the As It Happens theme song challenge. You will find all the details and my humiliating rendition on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

Juan Romero obit

JD: They were moments that would haunt Juan Romero for the rest of his life. In June of 1968, Mr. Romero was a hotel busboy in Los Angeles who shook Senator Robert F. Kennedy's hand mere seconds before the senator was fatally shot and killed. And in the famous black and white photograph Mr. Romero, who was just 17 years old cradles the senator's head as he lays dying. Juan Romero himself died this week. He was 68 years old. One day before Senator Kennedy was killed Mr. Romero had delivered room service to his hotel room. He described that encountered NPR's StoryCorps earlier this year.

SOUNDCLIP

JUAN ROMERO: They opened the door and the senator was talking on the phone. He put down the phone and says ‘Come on in, boys.’ You could tell when he was looking at you that he's not looking through you, he's taking you into account. And I remember walking out of there like I was ten feet tall. The next day he had his victory speech. So they came down the service elevator, which is behind the kitchen. I remember extending my hand as far as I could. And then I remember him shaking my hand and as he let go somebody shot him. I kneeled onto him and put my hand between the cold concrete and his head just to make him comfortable. I could see his lips moving so I put my ear next to his lips and I heard him say “Is everybody okay?” I said “Yes, everybody is okay.” I could feel a steady stream of blood coming through my fingers. I had a rosary in my shirt pocket and I took it out thinking that he would need it a lot more than me. I wrapped it around his right hand and then they wheeled him away. The next day I decided to go to school. I didn’t want to think about it. But this woman was reading the newspaper and you could see my picture in there with the senator on the floor. She turned around and showed me the picture and says ‘This is you, isn't it?’ And I remember looking at my hands and there was dry blood in between my nails. Then I received bags of letters addressed to the busboy. There were a couple of angry letters. One of them even went as far as to say that if he hadn't stopped to shake your hand the Senator would have been alive. So I should be ashamed of myself for being so selfish. It's been long fifty years and I still get emotional, tears come out. But I went to visit his grave in 2010 I felt like I needed to ask you to forgive me for not being able to stop those bullets from harming him. And I felt like it would be a sign of respect to buy a suit. I never owned a suit in my life. And so when I wore the suit and stood in front of his grave I felt a little bit like the first day that I met him.

JD: That was Juan Romero speaking on NPR StoryCorps earlier this year. Mr. Romero, the man who cradled Senator Robert F. Kennedy after he was fatally shot in 1968, died this week. He was 68 years old.

Part 3: Migrant tent city, Newfoundland shed party

Comfort Women memorial

JD: This week the city of Osaka in Japan finally severed ties with its sister-city San Francisco after 60 years because of a statue. The statue memorializes ‘comfort women’ — women and girls forced into sexual slavery in wartime Japan. And after San Francisco officially recognized it as public property, the mayor of Osaka terminated the city's official relationship. He said the monument presents quote “uncertain and one-sided claims as historical facts” unquote. Last November, this program spoke to Julie Tang the co-chair of the Comfort Women Justice Coalition — the campaigners who originally developed the memorial. Here Ms. Tang is describing what the statue looks like and its significance.

SOUNDCLIP

JULIE TANG: It has a six-feet tall column and on it stands three young girls. All the comfort women back then, they're euphemistically actually sex slaves, and the three girls are Chinese, Korean and Filipino. And about six-feet away from them is an older woman standing looking up to them. She's holding up her hand as if she's remembering her past and this older lady is actually Kim Hak-sun — the first comfort woman survivor who disclosed what happened to her and uncovered the dark history that had been shut up from the rest of the world for almost 70 years.

CO: You mentioned that there is this one woman that you have a relationship with who was a comfort woman. She saw the installation, the memorial. How did she respond?

JT: She cried. And when she cried we all cried with her. But then the tears has turned into joy when she saw the memorial, how beautiful it was. She looked at the young Korean girl and she said ‘That was me.’ And then when she saw Kim Hak-sun, the grandma whom she actually knew, she went up to her and started talking to her as if she's talking to a real person. And that kind of experience really touched all of us so much and we knew that this is what those grandmas who are still alive longed to have.

CO: Just to go back to the mayor of Osaka and what he has had to say about this memorial. San Francisco and Osaka are sister-cities. And he says that this breaks that relationship. What has the mayor of San Francisco had to say?

JT: The mayor of San Francisco did not allow them to bully or threaten him, nor did our Board of Supervisors because this symbolizes the value of the city, which is ethical, which is progressive, which is supportive of women's rights and we are very determined to fight for justice.

JD: That was Julie Tang, co- chair of the Comfort Women Justice Coalition speaking to As It Happens from San Francisco last November.

[Music: Reggae]

Newfoundland shed party

Guest: Lewis Parsons and Hedley Bradbury

JD: If you're looking for a good time in rural Newfoundland on a Saturday night don't look for a bar, look for a shed party. Hanging out in a shed with a few guitars and accordion and some bottles of booze has been a Newfoundland tradition for a long, long time. And now one family has found a way to invite the world to the party. They have been screaming their shed parties live on Facebook and attracting thousands of viewers. Lewis Parsons is the shed owner and a guitarist in the Conception Bay Showband. We reached him in Bay Roberts, Newfoundland.

CO: Lewis, why do you think that so many people want to watch you and your friends in your shed on a Saturday night?

LEWIS PARSONS: Well, I don't know, it's just the way things happen, I guess. Like when things are planned sometimes they go down the drain, but is just get something that just came out the blue and it’s just happening this way and we're really glad and proud able to bring people music.

CO: Can you tell, for people who have never been to what is actually a Newfoundland institution, isn't it, the shed party —tell us to what goes on?

LP: Well, we have a usual routine. Saturday nights a few of the boys come in, we play a game of cards and then later on maybe 9-9:30 Newfoundland time we get the music out and wives come in and friends drop by and we just take it from there. We just play it as, in music terms, from the floor. No rehearsals, no nothing, just straight music from our head and everybody enjoys it and it's just the way it goes.

CO: And so I imagine there might be just a few drinks of alcohol, maybe you're sipping sherry or something during this shed party?

LP: Yeah, everybody's got their own little drink. They’re drinking rum, whisky, beer — whatever the case may be. But there's nothing extravagant, we just drink and have a bit of fun and pass away the Saturday night, a typical Newfoundland Saturday night.

CO: Why do you think this became so big for so many people though?

LP: We really don't know. That's a question we were all asking ourselves. Like we didn't think we were that good. We're not bad but, I guess people just got to the way we play music and the type of music we play, the variety of music — Irish, Country and Western and a little bit of whatever. We play requests and people just plain simple like it.

CO: All right so people — we can’t show them your shed party, but we can play a bit of what people, well, thousands of people have been tuning in to watch and take part in on Saturday nights, live. So here's a clip of your when your shed parties.

SOUNDCLIP

CONCEPTION BAY SHOWBAND PLAYING

CO: Lewis that’s you singing, I think, right?

LP: No, that's my other singer. There’s two singers in our band. That's the other guy Tony Vokey.

CO: And there’s an accordion in there.

LP: I’ve got the accordion player here alongside of me now.

CO: You do? Can I speak to him?

LP: You can so.

HEDLEY BRADBURY: Hello.

CO: Is that you playing the accordion?

HB: Yes it is.

CO: Is this Hedley?

HB: Yeah, my name is Hedley.

CO: So what is it that you think people like so much about this party?

HB: Well, I guess, a lot of can’t get out most of the time. I guess, a lot of people living away from Newfoundland. Not only that, even people that don't live in Newfoundland, everyone is enjoying the music right? I guess everyone looks forward to it every Saturday night. Through the weekdays my phone doesn’t stop texting, day and night, day and night, wondering what time we’re going live. They all love us.

CO: So when they call you or text you do they tell you the kinds of memories, the kind of homesickness they're going through and what this Saturday night shed party means to them?

HB: Oh, yes. Yeah. Lots of them say they wish they could move back home, live home again, but there's not enough work here for everyone. And they they’re also texting all the time putting in their requests and that, asking can we do certain songs. We try to do the ones that come in. Anyone that requests a song, we will try to put it on. But we have so many requests through the weekdays that we can’t get through them all in one night.

CO: How far away are people writing and calling and texting you?

HB: All over. They’re texting from all around England, Ireland — Australia, I think there’s a few over there. There’s on man over in Vietnam, he loves the music as well.

CO: Hedley, it's good to talk to you, but can I have a few more words with Lewis?

HB: Yes, you can.

CO: All right, take care.

HB: Same to you.

LP: Hello.

CO: Hi, Lewis? Did you ever imagine that you'd be performing for thousands of people from your shed?

LP: Not in my life. No, never. Like, we just enjoy it. If the people weren't listening we'd still be out there. I'm really glad people have caught on and enjoyed the music we're playing and it gives us a bit more desire to play and share our music with those people. We’re not professionals, we’re just local guys who just learned to play a bit of music on their own and that's just the way it goes.

CO: Well, listen Lewis have a good ol’ Saturday Night.

LP: And if you don’t mind I’d like to put the names of the people in the group?

CO: All right.

LP: Okay it's me Lewis Parsons, Hedley Bradbury, Tony Vokey and Kevin Greenland.

CO: Well, hats off to the group of you and that and thanks for talking to us and have a great time on Saturday.

LP: Thanks so much for recognizing us.

CO: All right Lewis, take care.

LP: You take care. Thank you.

CO: Bye.

LO: Bye.

JD: We reached Lewis Parsons and Hedley Bradbury in Bay Roberts, Newfoundland. And if you would like to join the party this Saturday go to Facebook search for Conception Bay Showband.

[Music: Electric Guitar Strums]

Talkback: Hyundai Pony

JD: We thought the asking price was a bit steep, but according to some of you 15,000 bucks for a mint Hyundai Pony is a steal. Last night on the program we told you about a car dealership in Quebec that is selling a 1986 pony. They say it is in ‘magnifique condition.’ The affordable Korean car was all the rage in the mid-80s here in Canada. And after our interview many of you shared fond memories of it. Listener Laura Cunningham in Toronto sent us this e-mail.

CO: Dear As It Happens, my boyfriend's father bought us a 1986 model back in the 1990s, purchased from an older woman who only drove it to the grocery store once a week. We weren't very impressed when we saw it and we were confused in our first outings when people would pull up at a stoplight and yell. “Nice car.” Surely this was some kind of insult — until it kept happening. People would ask us ‘What year?’ And yell ‘Nice body.’ And slowly it dawned on us that these people really meant it. One day during their first few weeks, a man walked up to my open car windows I was struggling to this start it. He said, “You need to pump the gas.” I explained how it had a manual choke and surely this would flood the car. He pointed at his own navy blue Pony, which I hadn't noticed that he had parked in front of mine.

JD: He said, “Let me get in and show you how to start it.” And for some reason I did. I got out of the car, let this stranger hop in and watched with amazement as he proceeded to demonstrate the strange ritual of pumping the gas pedal ten times — no more, no less — and manipulating the choke just as the engine turned over when I turned the key. I never understood how this didn't flood the car but it didn't and it always started.

CO: My boyfriend at the time used to comment that his favourite thing about the car was that he could push it out of the intersection if it ever stalled. And stalled it could have, because encased in its rustless body was an unusually sad little engine that sounded like a sewing machine. I learned to breathe calmly while driving it at its top speed of 102 kilometres-per-hour while trucks and cars danced around me on the 403 highway on my frequent trips home. I loved that car and was sad when I had to abandon it on one of those occasions when they brake finally needed an overhaul. I still miss that damn car.

JD: Thank you so much for writing Laura.

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Oct. 4, 2018 episode transcript

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