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The AIH Transcript for July 20, 2017

Hosts: Helen Mann and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

HM: He's famous for running. Now, he'll walk. O.J. Simpson is granted parole after serving time for kidnapping and armed robbery to the disgust of the Goldman family, who still believes he killed their son.

JD: Hurting their pride. Two years ago, there was international outrage when Cecil the lion was killed by a big game hunter. Now, Cecil's son, Xanda, has suffered that same fate.

HM: Even after the takedown, she's calling for a take down. A group of self-described national socialists distributes the personal data of people who want a statue of Edward Cornwallis removed. But our guest isn't fazed.

JD: A precautionary tale. An Ottawa woman was hoping to take a Naloxone kit with her to a music festival to prevent overdoses. But the organizers have asked her to leave what they call “drug paraphernalia” at home.

HM: Given his profession, you'd expect a measured response. But while in Ontario baker is playing it cool about finding a musician’s beloved lost guitar, the musician Danny Michel is ecstatic.

JD: And… comfortably mom. U.S. president Donald Trump says he didn't speak to Japan's first lady at a diplomatic dinner because she doesn't speak English. But she does, which raises questions about why she opted not to chat. As It Happens, The Thursday edition. Radio that guesses she gave him a stern not talking to.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: OJ Simpson parole, Cornwallis protestor, Danny Michel

OJ Simpson parole

Guest: David J. Cook

JD: O.J. Simpson is going to get out of prison. The former football player and actor, who was famously and controversially acquitted of murdering his ex-wife and her friend, has been incarcerated on separate armed robbery and kidnapping charges in Nevada. Well today, a Board of Parole commissioners granted his release and that could happen as early as October. And here is what Mr. Simpson said today in his closing statement at the parole hearing.

SOUNDCLIP

OJ SIMPSON: I’ve spent nine years making no excuses about anything. I'm sorry that things turned out the way they did. I had no intent to commit a crime, came here and I tell the inmates all the time I don't want to hear about your crime, you know argue in court. Here, we are all convicts, I’m a convict, do your time. And don’t do anything to extend your time. I told the warden when I got here that would be no problem. You know, I think I kept my word. As I said, I've done my time. I'd just like to get back to my family and friends and believe it or not, I do have some real friends. But I don't think I could have represented this prison. I don't think any inmate has ever represented it better than I.

JD: O.J. Simpson, speaking today at his parole hearing. Mr. Simpson's release comes as no surprise to David J. Cook. Mr. Cook is the lawyer for Fred Goldman, father of Ron Goldman, who was killed alongside Nicole Brown Simpson in 1994. And while a criminal trial acquitted Mr. Simpson, a civil trial ruled he was responsible for their deaths. We reached David J. Cook in San Francisco.

HM: Mr. Cook, watching O.J. Simpson today at that parole hearing we heard him say multiple times that he was sorry. Do you believe him?

DAVID J. COOK: No, I don't believe he's sorry at all. I think he's incapable of sorrow, incapable of self-reflection and he is incapable of the most fundamental obligation we all have is to take responsibility for what you do. And he sat there and he equivocated for his conduct in the Las Vegas robbery, which was just atrocious. That was just wrong.

HM: What do you make of what he said in broad terms today about his of his demeanor and how he interacted with that parole board?

DC: I think he entertained the parole board. He's obviously a celebrity and he wowed them, just like he wowed the jury with his presence in 1994. And I saw that the parole board appeared to be nothing less than star struck by all the smiles and little giggles here and there. Do I think boy did what they were obligated to do? Yes, but you know he was able to get parole and if he qualified he qualified.

HM: Right, so you say they were obligated to do this. We're talking about a 70-year-old man, who has served the minimal amount he was required to serve. Apparently a model prisoner is what we're told. Did they have any other choice but to release him?

DC: No, I believe that they fulfilled their obligation. They fulfilled their duty. They did the right thing. And anybody who says the contrary is wrong. But, he did not take responsibility for what he did, he equivocated and he certainly hasn't taken responsibility for what he did in 1994, even though he was acquitted. And more to the point, he hasn't fulfilled his fundamental moral obligation which is to take responsibility and to repent.

HM: At one point during the hearing today we heard Mr. Simpson say I believed a conflict-free life. Do you think a parole board should have challenged him on that?

DC: Yeah, I think they should. But I think they declined to do that because the minute that they started to engage in that discussion, they would unpeel the onion going back to 1994. And the chairperson made it very clear that we're not reliving history folks. This is not a rerun of 1994 and the criminal trial. Thank you very much. That chapter is closed. They themselves would become part of the controversy and should they have been unhappy with Mr. Simpson's comments and denied parole. Likewise, they would have entered into a political firestorm.

HM: if you had been sitting on that parole board what would you have asked Mr. Simpson?

DC: Are you ready to repent for what you've done in 1994? Do you take responsibility for your conduct? There's a $60 million wrongful death judgment. What do you intend to do? Why should we let you out? Tell me why? I may let you out anyway, but I'd still like to hear it from you.

HM: But you yourself said they can't really open that can of worms?

DC: They cannot reopen a can of worms as a condition, but they can certainly ask him.

HM: You mentioned the judgment that your clients, the Goldman family and the Brown family, won as against Mr. Simpson. How much of that money has your client Fred Goldman seen?

DC: We've got the book “If I Did It”, we sold over 160,000 copies. So we made some money here. So we made a dent. It wasn't a big dent, but a dent is a dent.

HM: Just to clarify, when you say the book it was a book that Mr. Simpson tried to get out there so he could make money and you managed to seize the assets from that. Now Mr. Simpson, as we understand it, still has his pension from the NFL and that that is untouchable in the judgment as I understand it?

DC: Well, that is a legal term for that. And legal term is called “Kevlar”, “Bulletproof”. And that's the best way to describe them. I scoured them, prior council scoured them, they’re just bulletproof and we’ll leave it at that.

HM: So his $20,000 monthly pension he gets to keep. Do you have any reason to think that he'll have another source of revenue now that he is going to be out of prison, presumably in October?

DC: I think as of October 2^nd, on his desk will be a stack of lucrative financial proposals. Be it another book deal. He could go on a speaking tour. God only knows what he's capable of doing. And I think he will.

HM: And what will you do then to try to get that money?

DC: Well, after having a good breakfast, I'm sure I’ll go out and reach it. And I believe that all of those are reachable. It may take a little elbow grease and ingenuity and a little bit of hit-and-miss, but we will go out there and we will reach that one way or another it will come into our hands.

HM: Just prior to this parole hearing we heard in the last few days from Fred Goldman. He believed that that Mr. Simpson would walk free. In fact, he said the killer will walk free and do whatever he wants. Do you have a sense of how he is doing all these years later? How the family is dealing with this and especially now that Mr. Simpson is indeed going to be out in the streets?

DC: As we say you know closure is profane, grief is eternal. Whether Mr. Simpson sits in a Nevada prison cell and about to be released or whether he's a free man. Their condition, their status, their life still remains the same. They’ve lost a son. Nothing can be done to bring that boy back. The only thing we've done is to seek some type of justice or the enforcement of the civil judgment.

HM: Well, you won the civil case, but Mr. Simpson was acquitted in the criminal court for the death of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman. Can he ever escape the shadow of that?

DC: No, the only way that Mr. Simpson will alter the fabric of American culture, which has been warped as a result of this, is that he repents, he confesses, he takes responsibility or he starts down that path. Until he does that, we are all strangers in OJ's strange land and we all live in an unfamiliar world a minute he was with it. He made us living in a strange land. So, in effect, it's really up to Mr. Simpson to come to grips and literally take responsibility. When Mr. Simpson was acquitted, he literally drove a deep divide in this country and the minute that he makes up his mind and takes responsibility maybe that divide will start to close a little bit and have some sense of reconciliation.

HM: Mr. Cook, thank you for taking time to talk to us.

DC: Anything else I can do for you, feel free to call me.

HM: All right, you have a good day. Bye Bye.

DC: Bye bye.

JD: David J. Cook is the lawyer for Fred Goldman, father of Ron Goldman, who was killed alongside Nicole Brown Simpson in 1994 O.J. Simpson was charged, and then of course later acquitted in their deaths. We reached Mr. Cook in San Francisco.

[Music: Stage music]

Cornwallis protestor

Guest: El Jones

JD: You didn't have to do very much to make the list. That makes it no less menacing. A group of self-described national socialists has tweeted out the names and frequently in accurate personal information of 28 people who took interest in the removal of a statue of Edward Cornwallis from a Halifax park. Cornwallis is the governor credited with founding Halifax. He is also the governor who offered a cash bounty for every Mik’maq person killed. Some of the people on the list had done nothing more than just add news about the protests to their Facebook feed. But El Jones has taken a stand. Ms. Jones is the former Halifax poet laureate and she has called out publicly for the statues removal. We reached Ms. Jones in Toronto.

HM: El Jones, how did you find out that your name was on this list?

EL JONES: I'm not on Twitter. And one of the reasons why I'm not on Twitter is because of the number of threats that black women often receive in that medium, Leslie Jones being an example of that that was quite famous. So the way I found out is that people started messaging me and saying we just wanted to let you know there's this list going around, your name is on it, just want to check that you're safe.

HM: What was your immediate response when you heard this?

EJ: Well on the one hand, like I said, I suppose you could call me an outspoken black woman or a public figure. I’m certainly someone who's been active speaking about injustice or racism or these other issues. So, in that sense, is this anything new? No. You probably know yourself that when you're a woman who speaks publicly in any way whether that be on the Internet as a writer woman face threats doing that. But I think anytime you have you know a Twitter account from a national socialist I think you have to take that seriously. No matter how small the account is, whether or not it's organized, no matter what it represents. The very idea that somebody is taking on you know a Nazi account and then listing people, you have to see that as threatening and as concerning as well.

HM: Have you been contacted by authorities about your appearance on this list?

EJ: No, not yet. And one of the points I was making to a friend is I wonder if a bunch of say Muslim men had made a list of people how quickly the police would have responded? One of the things we saw for example with Alexandra Bissonette, who shot the mosque in Quebec and killed people at prayer there, was that people afterward said he had this record of extremist postings online, he had made postings threatening woman, he had talked about immigrants and people saw that and they were disturbed. But they also didn't think to call the police, right? So one of the concerns with the way that we're seeing a particular extremist rhetoric growing around white nationalism, white supremacy, or what they call themselves the alt-right, you know all these different kind of groups. People don't always see that as extreme, it's often quite normalized and people think that the kind of rhetoric that you see on you know the CBC comments on Indigenous stories, where people normal people as such will make very, very vicious comments. So I think one of the questions we should be asking is why is this kind of extremist rhetoric growing? And why is it often growing without people necessarily seeing it as serious as it is? So would people have reported to the police is black people had made a list of cops? Probably. Would Muslims be reported? But this list? No.

HM: You're saying that you think is possible police are not taking this seriously. Have you have you made a formal complaint to police?

EJ: No, to me, I do think there's a danger in placing so much energy and attention on this list because you take something that starts as not an organized thing and this gives it the power to organize. So one of the things I keep trying to say is if people are horrified by this kind of extremism, which my experience is that people are, I'm sure most people listening like are Nazi list, that's terrible. But I think where we really need to focus is on how in general normal, good, progressive white people often don't do as much work as they could to pushback against racism and often aren't questioning a lot of the ways that we see some of this rhetoric entering our mainstream. One thing I would ask I guess if I had a suggestion would be rather than just sort of thing that terrible Nazis, bad apples, bad thing, terrible thing in society, but doesn't really concern us. For us to really think about the ways that in general our dominant culture often gives root to these things. Not in those extreme forms that people often support whiteness unthinkingly. 58 Per cent of Halifax supports the Cornwallis statue.

HM: Yeah, I guess I want to know why you think the proposal to remove the statue of Cornwall's has become such a lightning rod. First, with the proud boy and now with this list from this group that identifies themselves as national socialists or Nazis.

EJ: The point I frequently make is that unless you're some kind of a historian of the 18th century it's not that people ever really cared or knew about Cornwallis was. It was only when historians like Daniel Paul, who is a Mik’maq historian, started saying this is a history and this is damaging and maybe we should get rid of that and not celebrate it. People often have this kind of what seems like a knee jerk reaction to become defensive and say these people are trying to take something away from us, so therefore we need to defend it. Without really thinking through did you care about it? In the case of the Cornwallis statue, it went up in 1931. So it's more recent than most of the buildings we're knocking down in the city, but people don't need to restore that heritage and hold onto it. But they become attached to Cornwallis and why become attached isn't because they cared about Cornwallis. It's because people seem to become very defensive any time they feel that some kind of white privilege or position in society is being taken away. So that starts to symbolize for them these people — these Indigenous people — you know they want things. So I think that kind of unthinking dynamic. I think for people like the Proud Boys, who showed up at the ceremony that Grizzly Mama was holding, or for the people that are now making a list saying these are the dangerous protesters that might be at the removing Cornwallis event. I think it becomes a symbol because it is a symbol of white violence. So it begins to represent the kinds of Canada that people actually want to engage in. So the Canada where Indigenous people are under people's boot. A question you could ask is why are white people being radicalized? And that’s they often ask about Muslim people. So if this is a place where people are being radicalized online and being radicalized through Twitter and finding they're engaging in the rhetoric then I would suggest that in our communities we need to be doing more work to confront that and to educate people and to ask why we haven’t? And not all these young people, but often young white men that feel so alienated and feel that they want to engage in this kind of rhetoric. And communities — particularly white communities — need to start doing some work to speak about that and to arrest that and to intervene in that.

HM: EL Jones, I really appreciate you talking to us. Thank you very much.

EJ: Thank you for having me.

HM: All right. Bye bye.

JD: El Jones is the former poet laureate for Halifax. We reached her in Toronto. And as of last report, police in Nova Scotia were saying that they had received no harassment complaints about the incident and they had no investigations open. You will find more on this story on our website. That is www.cbc.ca/aih. And if you'd like to hear more of Ms. Jones, she is going to be hosting CBC Radio's “Tapestry” the first three Sundays of August.

[Music: Bluegrass]

Danny Michel

Guest: Danny Michel

JD: There's a bakery near Barrie, Ontario, and I would hazard a guess that it is Danny Michel’s favorite bakery on earth. Earlier today, the Canadian musician performed a song at Bruno’s Bakery and Cafe in Innisfail, Ontario. It was a way to say thank you to the shop owner who had found the guitar. Mr. Michel had lost earlier this week. We reached Danny Michelle on the road near Wasaga Beach, Ontario.

HM: Danny Michelle, what was it like to be reunited with your guitar?

DANNY MICHELLE: It was surreal and fantastic and yeah, it was just wonderful.

HM: So you went to the bakery today and I gather you performed?

DM: Yeah I played a song and the news people were there and all kinds of stuff. It was at the Barrie paper and the Barrie local news. It was really hilarious.

HM: How did you lose it anyway?

DM: Well OK, this whole story is a little embarrassing because it is 100 per cent my fault. And you know I'm not new to this music industry. I've done in my whole life, so I've moved equipment around forever and I've never, ever had a problem. But this was just a simple mistake. Me and my buddy were switching all the equipment from two cars into one car, and then we were going to go up north with one car. And so I was like piling all my stuff around the car and then I said OK, you got it right? He started loading the car and I said OK, I'm going to go park my car and come get me. So I drove away and he packed up the car. But I put the guitar around the side and he just he just didn't see it, it was just a mistake. He thought I packed it and I thought he packed and we just drove away and left it sitting there.

HM: When did you realize it was missing?

DM: We got up north and we got out and they opened the trunk. I'm like where's my guitar? And he's like I don't know? I freaked out, you know?

HM: So you put out the call for the guitar on social media, is that right?

DM: Yeah. So immediately my body was I put it on social media. And I was like well, it’s embarrassing. But then I decided well I could you know I could live through the embarrassment if it meant I got my guitar back. The story started out dumb. Then it got scary and terrible and then it ended just beautifully.

HM: Right. How quickly did you hear the response back from the bakery owner?

DM: It was a whole day and then the whole next day. And then I was I was at home, I was filling out police reports on line and I was e-mailing all the pawn shops in the Barrie area and explaining to them and sending them photos and the serial number and asking them to please keep an eye out for us. And in the middle of all that, all of a sudden, an e-mail came and said I have your guitar, call me.

HM: For those of us who are musicians I guess we don't necessarily appreciate how important a particular instrument is to someone like you. Why was this guitar so important to you?

DM: An instrument to a musician you have an incredible bond with it. I imagine it's like a person who is a horse jumper or what's it called?

HM: An equestrian.

DM: Yeah. Like I imagine something like the relationship they would have with a horse over 20 years, right? You actually wear it down with your own hand and arm. That your hand and the shape of your hand. You kind of become one together. Older instruments have a better sound in many ways and this is why violins are so expensive, the old, old ones. Yeah, it's such an intimate tool, not only a tool of your trade for your job. I don't know, it's hard it's hard to explain. That was not a very good answer.

HM: That's OK. So you met the bakery owner, Mr. Alonzi, today. Tell me about that moment where you finally got to thank him?

DM: I came walking up and he came right out the door, he saw me first. He gave me a big hug. And he's like oh man, this is so great! He's overwhelmed by how much love he's getting through people. You know, I think everyone's been sending him lots of messages. His Facebook he said has exploded. And you know we live in a world that's pretty crazy right now. And I think this is the kind of news people really kind of want and need right now. And you know, it's really wonderful of him to remind everybody that people are pretty wonderful and we can count on them.

HM: How many cakes did you buy?

DM: I bought a cake, I got tarts, I got muffins and bread, I got soup, I got spaghetti sauce.

HM: You promised to buy 500 cakes. Will you be going back?

DM: Well, I couldn't buy 500. He didn't have, but I bought everybody in the place muffins tarts or whatever they're called. I bought everybody stuff and basically he refused to take a reward from me. So I was like fine, I'm just going to spend a few hundred dollars on treats for everybody to thank everybody for helping out. So many people too drove down there. I had 50 messages, easily, from people saying here now, I can't find it. I'm here; I’ll go over and talk to the store next door. People that just like drove down and looked for it for me.

HM: Everybody who was there got rewarded with that song.

DM: And some tarts.

HM: Cool.

DM: Yeah.

HM: Well, congratulations on getting your guitar back and thank you for telling us the story.

DM: Thank you. Thank you. I'm a really, really lucky guy.

HM: Yeah. Well, it sounds like Mr. Alonzi got something nice out of it too. Got to meet you and feel good about it.

DM: He's a good guy.

HM: OK. Thanks Danny.

DM: All the best. Thank you.

HM: Bye.

JD: That was Canadian musician Danny Michel. We reached him while driving near Wasaga Beach, Ontario.

[Music: Guitar]

Dolores Marsalis

JD: To call them a musical family would be a massive understatement. In a world of jazz, the Marsalis family has produced more than one musical great, including trumpet player Wynton Marsalis, and saxophonist and composer Branford Marsalis. And presiding over all that talent was the family's matriarch: Dolores. Ms. Marsalis died this week. She was 80-years-old. She was born in New Orleans. She met her husband Ellis, fittingly, at a jazz concert. He was, and still is, an accomplished jazz pianist. But Ellis has speculated that his son's talents actually may have come from Dolores. Her uncle played bass for Duke Ellington, and, farther along the family tree, she is related to a number of well-known New Orleans musicians.

Part 2: Xanda killed, parrot murder case, Naloxone festival goer

Xanda killed

Guest: Luke Hunter

JD: Two years ago, Cecil the lion that made headlines around the world when he was killed for sport by an American dentist hunting in Zimbabwe. Cecil was well-known in the area for his black mane. He had been closely tracked by researchers. Now, Cecil's son, Xanda, has met a similar fate at the hands of a hunter. Luke Hunter is the president and chief conservation officer for Panthera, a global wildcat conservation organization. We reached Mr. Hunter in New York.

HM: Mr. Hunter, where does your mind go when you learned that Xanda had died, pretty much the same way his father Cecil the lion did?

LUKE HUNTER: Look, unfortunately, this was entirely predictable. Trophy hunting of lions is legal in Zimbabwe, as it is in a number of other countries. And in that country it happens right on the boundaries of Hwange National Park, where Xanda and Cecil lived. So sadly you know I sighed a deep sigh and thought it's another tragic example, but it was entirely predictable. It will continue to happen as long as that scenario continues to be in place there.

HM: What do you know specifically about how Xanda died?

LH: Well look, it is important to stress this was a legal hunt by Zimbabwean law, so it is illegal to hunt African lions in Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe has a regulation that lions no younger than six years of age can be hunted and the idea there is that that raising the age limit on legally hunted Lions gives them an opportunity to reproduce. So the impacts to the population are reduced. Xanda was just over 6 years of age. So actually, all of this by international and Zimbabwean law was an entirely legal hunt.

HM: Now Xanda was being tracked, as I understand it, with a collar. So his whereabouts would have been fairly well known. Where specifically was he? He was right on the border of this national park as I understand it.

LH: That's right. Oxford wild crew division track the lions of Hwange National Park. And you know they've got incredibly detailed knowledge on the movements of animals. Xanda and his pride occupied parts of the national park and also part of their home range also went out of the boundaries of a national park. So the challenge here is you know how can you have hunting right up on the boundaries of a major national park that’s so critical to a lion population? Because you know it's inevitable, of course, the Lions don't know the boundary, so it's just it's just a boundary on a paper map.

HM: And these trophy hunters operate in the area just outside the boundaries of the park?

LH: That's correct. The concessions are set up adjacent to the national park in this case. So they’re usually privately owned areas or areas that the Zimbabwean government allocates as concessions adjacent to the national park. And again, so you know in principle it is legal for hunting to occur in those areas. It's not legal for hunting to occur inside the national park of course.

HM: How lucrative is this hunt to Zimbabwe?

LH: That's a good question. I don't know to be honest. You know typically the clients, the person who hunted Xanda, would have paid tens-of-thousands of dollars. The majority will go to the Zimbabwean company that guided that client. In this case, I believe that it’s a organization called Richard Cooke Safaris, but I don't know them. So, of course, you know there is a commercial enterprise, they want to make a profit from that. But some of the revenue in principle also goes to the Conservation Authority and that's the sort of the rub here because some of the revenue is considered important by the Zimbabwean government for them to be able to do conservation. It generates revenue for that purpose.

HM: What more can you tell us about Xanda? You said he was a little bit over six years old. Given that he was being tracked, do we know anything about his life and whether he had progeny?

LH: We do yes. He's a sort of prime adult male who had control over a number of adult lionesses and many cubs. When any adult male dies in lion society dies, the role that they're playing is they prevent the incursion of males from outside that are moving around in the system and would like to take over that pride to get access to the lionesses. And so the danger when an adult male lion dies is that security is removed and that leaves the pride lionesses very vulnerable to these takeovers as we call them. What happens in that takeover process is, typically, the incoming males kill all the cubs of pride because they're not related to those cubs. You know they have a biological imperative to remove the cubs so they can then sire their own generation of cubs, which they then go on to protect very vigorously.

HM: And how will we know — will we know — what happens to those cubs?

LH: I strongly suspect we're going to know because you know it's such an important area for tourism. You know, many, many tourists see these animals. You know, they're waiting with bated breath I think. I'm sure the fate of the animals will be known in coming days and weeks, I suspect.

HM: When Cecil, Xanda’s dad, was killed, there was international outrage over it. Do you think we're going to see any of the same kind of pushback now that we know that Xanda has been killed?

LH: That's a very good question. I'm not sure. I mean you know the irony of this of course is that you know many dozens of male lions just like Xanda and Cecil have been legally hunted since Cecil. And again, that will continue to happen. Arguably, legitimately, when African governments need to find ways to generate revenue for their conservation, so I think you know Zimbabwe, like many African countries, is wrestling with how you have hunting and protection and photographic tourism all in the same landscape? So I think you know we will continue to see this this kind of thing unfolding for as long as hunting is part of a toolbox that governments will consider important in terms of achieving their conservation objectives.

HM: Personally, do you think these hunts should be outlawed?

LH: Look, personally, I find it really tragic that someone enjoys hunting lions for fun because I sure don't. I think they're magnificent animals and you know hunting them for fun really baffles me. I think it's dangerous to just call for banning, unless alternatives are given. And you know my colleagues in African governments have asked me for many years. We here in the U.S. and in Canada hunt for our large carnivores. We legally allow that. Many tens-of-thousands of bears and mountain lions and wolves and so on and we would argue that that's important for conservation objectives here. So they would question you know why couldn't African governments also have the same right? And again, you know they will argue that it's important for the revenue. So I think unless we find ways to replace the revenue then it's reasonable to say OK, how do we help African governments to transition away from trophy hunting if we're an affluent nations are opposed to it? But I wouldn't call for outlawing or just banning it out of hand where I think African governments have legitimate questions about how that's possible for them.

HM: Luke Hunter, thank you very much for speaking with us.

LH: Thanks so much.

HM: Good bye.

LH: Bye bye.

JD: Luke Hunter is the president and chief conservation officer for the global wildcat conservation group Panthera. He also helped organize the Cecil lion summit last year. We reached Mr. Hunter in New York. Again, this week, Cecil's son, Xanda, was killed by a hunter in Zimbabwe.

[Music: Light rock]

From Our Archives: parrot murder case

JD: He was allegedly an eyewitness to a murder. And he couldn't keep his beak shut about it. In 2015, a Michigan man by the name of Martin Duram was shot and killed. Today, his wife, Glenna Duram was convicted of his murder. The shooting happened in the couple's home. And apparently watching from nearby was the couple's parrot, Bud. And soon after, the parrot's new owner, Christina Keller, reported that Bud seemed to be spilling the beans. She recorded the bird saying the words “Don't shoot”, over and over again with a swear word in between. The parrot was not called to testify in court. Last year, Carol spoke to Ms. Keller. Here's part of that conversation, from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

CRISTINA KELLER: Bud, ever since we bought him 20 years, ago he's always been a little bit more emotional. And yes, I feel stronger ties because this does not come on like we're talking on the phone now. He's not going to go into the rant because it's a good, happy mood. It used to happen late at night or it'll happen when emotions are high. If I’m on the phone and I'm upset and I'm talking to one of my kids, he'll start doing it.

CAROL OFF: Is it always the same? Those same phrases, you can't really hear the words, but is it always these two voices and it ends with don't effing shoot?

CK: Mostly yes, but I had been stopping him from doing that. I’ve been trying to calm him down because at times, he has, during these rants, banged his beak either on the wall or the cage in a very aggressive, scary manner.

CO: Is it possible that this is another conversation, maybe from television or something he picked up?

CK: You know, I might say yes. But with when he is saying “F you white boy” in a woman's voice. And then I can hear the man's voice. It's identical to Marty.

CO: Now, you say that the police have they heard this? Or do they just know about this recording you made?

CK: They knew about the bird. I looked to the police report, but four neighbors said you need to talk to that bird. I know it sounds ridiculous, but that's how intelligent Bud is and how much people believed that he witnessed this.

JD: From last year, that was Christina Keller in conversation with Carol. Speaking about her parrot, Bud. Today, a Michigan woman, Glenna Duram, was convicted of murdering her husband. Bud the parrot allegedly witnessed the murder and couldn't stop talking about it.

[Music: Piano rendition of “House of the Rising Sun”]

Lamb hot tub response

JD: On Tuesday night, we told you about a dinner party in Iceland. A meal where 30 friends got together, as friends do, and threw a whole lamb in a hot tub and cooked at sous vide, as friends usually don't. But apparently, they are not the first to do something like this. Michael Copado, a listener in Detroit, wrote to us to say British chef Heston Blumenthal cooked a whole pig in a hot tub back in 2009. And then we received this tweet from Chef Ian Riddick in Tofino, British Columbia. And chef Ian wrote in… or tweeted rather: “Interesting story on the sous vide lamb. I've been known to sous vide a beef tenderloin or two in a hotel bathtub before.” So thanks for that Chef Riddick. Unfortunately, he did fail to tell us which hotel in which bathtub. So vegans, bathe at your own risk. And in case you missed our interview, or would like to watch videos on how to cook sous vide in a hot tub, go to our website: www.cbc.aih.

Naloxone festival goer

Guest: Maegan Mason

JD: It's not something Maegan Mason necessarily wants to bring to a music festival, but she figures better safe than sorry. Ms. Mason is trained in administering naloxone, an antidote for opioid drug overdoses. The 20-year-old from Ottawa will be going to the WayHome Music and Arts Festival just, north of Toronto, later this month. So she assumed it would be OK, to take her naloxone kit. But when she asked the festival organizers, she got a less-than-enthusiastic response. We reached Maegan Mason in Ottawa.

HM: Miss Mason, how did the organizers of way home respond when you asked if you could bring along your naloxone kit?

MAEGAN MASON: Well, at first I got no response. And after a few days of waiting, I decided to contact them on Facebook. And it wasn't until the saw my message there that they responded through email. And they just simply put it “no drugs or drug paraphernalia will be allowed on site.”

HM: What did you say in response to that?

MM: I've got to say, I was a little bit upset. I had shared with them a lot of information about myself and why I would want to bring naloxone on site. And they ignored that. And it wasn't until today that they addressed naloxone altogether. They really just said that you know there's more to the drug that we do. It not just using naloxone and everything's OK. There's medics that are going to be on hand and everything along those lines. But they still haven't let me know whether naloxone even be allowed by paramedics on the festival grounds.

HM: Why is it so important to you, personally, to bring this kit to WayHome?

MM: Well, last year, at Osheaga music festival in Montreal, I experienced really unfortunate event where a girl, who I didn't know, in the thick of the crowd collapsed to the ground. Not fully sure whether it was related to it, though it's most likely that it was considering the state that she was in and her complete unconsciousness. But the time it took for me just to create a path for her friends to carry her out, let alone just her being able to be transported to a medical tent, was just so disappointing. It should have been a lot quicker. And it's not the fault of the festival, it's just that the right procedures in place yet.

HM: Can you tell us when you're trying to describe clearing that path. I mean how crowded are we talking about?

MM: We're talking about like the main stage for a headliningperforming artist. So it's like it's tens-of-thousands of people. Like you can even begin to imagine how many people it is. You know, at Osheaga, they have a whole field of a stage. And behind that, there's a whole hill that is filled with people.

HM: How long do you think it took for her friends to get her out of there as you cleared that path?

MM: Well, I know that it took at least five minutes just to get her out of like the first section of the crowd. And I would say know from each section of the crowd that's another five minutes. And then you know carrying someone is not like just running to a first aid tent. And those hopefully have been placed closer to the stages this year. But, in previous, years they were you know they had to be further away because they want to create a large space for as many people to be able to watch the main stage, right?

HM: Now, you've taken training to administer naloxone. What did you learn? I learned that it's actually quite easy and you learn that even if you administer it at the wrong moment, when someone isn't OD'ing on an opioid, you won't harm them. They'll be fine.

HM: What did you learn about timeliness? How long you can wait to administer it?

HM: You should administer it right away when you're seeing symptoms of the opioid overdose. And then if it doesn't work the first shot, you should give another five minutes. So it is really to buy yourself or this person time to get the attention they need. So if I had administered the first one with this girl in the crowd that would be enough to get her out of her section of the crowd. If that didn't help her, a second one would have given her another five to ten minutes to be able to get to a paramedic.

HM: You're pretty young. You're just 20, right?

MM: Yeah, that's correct.

HM: So this is important to you. You're taking on a pretty big responsibility doing this, aren't you?

MM: I guess you can look at it that way. But I think right now, the only reason why it's such a big responsibility is because not many people are doing it. Or even if they do have a kit, they’re not bringing them to festivals because you know it's just not allowed or they don't want to go through the trouble of trying to sneak one in. You know, if every single friend group of like 10 people had one person with a naloxone kit and were trained it wouldn't be a huge responsibility on my shoulders because I know that there are many people all around me that would still have the ability to step up if they needed to.

HM: As you mentioned, the WayHome organizers have said that they feel they've got the situation in hand. Do you think they have specific reasons maybe why they wouldn't want people like you bringing the kits onto the grounds?

MM: At first, I thought of it being like a safety reason. Unfortunately, right now, the nasal spray form of naloxone, which is available isn't widely available. So it's very hard to get your hands on. And because of that, I only have the syringe version, which I didn't even mention a festival at all. But I can see to a certain extent why they wouldn't want syringes on the ground. But, at the same time, you know if someone's diabetic, they're going to need their insulin shot. And if someone has an EPI Pen, that’s needle as well. I know that there is a festival in Sudbury I believe, in northern Ontario, that are training volunteers to be in the crowds with naloxone kits. So they won`t be festival goers; they’ll will be staff members and that's another great option.

HM: So what are you going to do?

MM: I'm going to keep spreading the message and hoping that they will change something about their policies so that naloxone can be more widely accessible within the festival ground. And I'm also going to keep informing people that I know that are going to the festival about safe drug use. And hopefully at the festival as well.

HM: You are going yourself?

MM: Yes, I'm going to continue to go.

HM: And you're not going to try and bring the kit?

MM: I haven't fully decided on that one yet. It's been a back and forth, here and there and it's probably something I'll figure out the day of.

HM: How does it make you feel that you have to get this training and go out there and get it yourself?

MM: I think it should be definitely more accessible… maybe not more accessible because it is quite accessible now. But it should be more freely given more and more constantly. You know, we're in the heat of an opiate crisis right now. And even at a bar at a club or any kind of event, it doesn't have to be a festival where drugs can be taken. It should be known by many civilians how to treat something that's going on, or even just how to recognize the symptoms so you know what’s happening to your friend or to somebody that's in line with you.

HM: All right. Maegan Mason, thank you very much for speaking with us.

MM: No problem. Thank you for having me.

HM: OK. Bye bye.

MM: Bye.

JD: We reached Maegan Mason in Ottawa. And today, the organizers of WayHome put out a statement saying, quote, “Our roving teams and fixed sites will have deployable naloxone kits.

[Music: Folk]

Abe English

JD: Here is part of a transcript of an exchange between New York Times reporter Maggie Haberman and U.S. president Donald Trump, published online yesterday. They are discussing a dinner at the G-20 summit in Germany, earlier this month. Quote, “Trump: So I was seated next to the wife of Prime Minister Shinzo Abe of Japan, who I think is a terrific guy and she's a terrific woman, but doesn't speak English. Haberman: Like nothing, right? Like Zero? Trump: Like not hello. Haberman: That must make for an awkward seating? Trump: Well, it's hard because you know you're sitting there for… Haberman: Hours. Trump: So the dinner was probably an-hour-and-forty-five minutes.” Unquote.

JD: Now, here is Akie Abe, wife of Prime Minister Shinzo Abe of Japan, speaking at a symposium on coastal resilience in 2014.

SOUNDCLIP

AKIE ABE: The more I think about it, the less I can remember. How can we let it sustain and reach each other? How can we all live happily together? There must be a path leading to those goals.

JD: Ms. Abe’s speech goes on for at least 15 minutes, all of it in English. So how are we to reconcile president Trump's firm belief that Ms. Abe doesn't speak English at all with our firm belief that she definitely does? Well, we could imagine that Akie Abe’s speech was written out entirely phonetically… All 15-plus minutes of it, or that she's just not comfortable with her English, or that for some reason fillet of North Sea turbot and beef cheeks, both of which were on the menu in Hamburg, render Ms. Abe speechless. Or we could surmise that Japan's first lady experienced a case of how do you say selective failure to speak English? That when seated next to Mr. Trump she decided an-hour-and-forty-five minutes of uncomfortable silence was preferable to an-hour-and-forty-five minutes of much more uncomfortable conversation. If that was the case, it was a bold tactic. Not exactly ethical, but it works.

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July 20, 2017 episode transcript

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