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The AIH Transcript for December 16, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: A great kid. That's how Aaron Cogswell's mother is remembering the Nova Scotia fishermen who went missing yesterday. And as the search for survivors is called off, she says she believes he died doing what he loved.

CH: Fast acting. Francois-Philippe Champagne says Joe Biden's presidency will begin to benefit Canada early in 2021. But plenty of challenges remain for the foreign minister on the world stage.

CO: Rolling up his sleeves. A Black hospital employee tells us he's hard at work convincing other African-Americans to roll up theirs. And that's why he was amongst the first in the U.S. to get the COVID-19 vaccine.

CH: Gut feeling. Our guests suspected it wasn't just ocean animals that were bearing the brunt of pollution. Now, he says the straw that broke the camel's back was likely plastic and was found in its stomach.

CO: 15 minutes of blame. A Moroccan businessman says a Ben Affleck film used his photo without permission and made him look like a suspect. But a Spanish court says it's his legal argument that's suspect.

CH: And as sheep go Prickles is truly the goat. She turned up in April after a seven year absence and her astonishing wool coat had fans flocking. We revisit some of our coverage of her coverage. As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Radio that's always here for you.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: 'It's a slow death': Camels are dying with masses of plastic in their bellies, study finds

Fishermen deaths update

Guest: Lori Phillips

CH: The search has been suspended for the fishermen whose boat went down off the coast of Nova Scotia. One of their bodies was recovered last night. Search crews have also found debris, life rafts, life jackets, boots, and no one is holding out much hope that the other five men will be rescued. Aaron Cogswell was one of the crew on-board the Chief William Saulis on Tuesday morning when an emergency signal went out. We reached his mother, Lori Phillips, in Annapolis Valley First Nation, Nova Scotia.

CO: Lori, what news are you hoping to get about your son?

LORI PHILLIPS: That they find his body. There's no chance of survival after all this time.

CO: How long has he been out on this expedition?

LP: Tuesday, I believe, of last week.

CO: What went through your mind when you first learnt that the boat had gone?

LP: That my son was gone.

CO: You had no expectation that they'd...

LP: No. A mother knows. A mother knows.

CO: You sensed it.

LP: Yeah. My husband and my son are both fishermen, so I know the way it works.

CO: Lori, I'm so sorry that you're going through this.

LP: It's all right.

CO: When was the last time you had any contact with Aaron?

LP: Last Tuesday.

CO: What did he say?

LP: He was going on the boat and wished me well at work, and I told him to drive safely.

CO: What was it he liked about fishing?

LP: It was his life. He loved it. Like being on the water, he just loves to work. He was a workhorse. He bought his first car at 16 picking strawberries. Like he's always worked. He did the bait bags at 14 and 15 for my husband's boat. Like he's always working. He's just got that ethic. He's got to be busy.

CO: But he really liked being on the water.

LP: He does. He loves it.

CO: Tell us about Aaron, if you would.

LP: You know, he's my son. He is just a great kid who has -- he is high functioning autistic, so he did have some issues that he had to deal with on a daily basis. He was a great uncle, a great brother to his four siblings and his two step siblings. He was in pain -- we just lost his grandfather, well his adopted grandfather -- my husband's father -- not even two weeks beforehand on the 28th of November. We were already raw and hurting.

CO: And he is 29?

LP: Yes.

CO: What were his plans for Christmas?

LP: What was his plan for Christmas? Well, we were going to make the best of what we could because we lost our grandfather. He went shopping for Christmas, he took his nephews -- both nephews -- out shopping so they could buy their gifts for the family. And the weekend before he left, he made sure everything was wrapped and ready to go.

CO: What a sweetheart.

LP: Yeah. The same thing happened with my father in law. Like he'd give me the list of who to buy gifts for and all his gifts were bought when he suddenly died of a massive heart attack and it wasn't expected. 20 minutes after he finished Christmas shopping. So I've got lots of gifts under the tree for a lot of my family, all from people that are deceased in the last three weeks.

CO: So you were already grieving before this even happened?

LP: Yes, we just had my father in law's service on December 4th.

CO: And this boat that Aaron was on, the Chief William Saulis, he knew the captain, Charles Roberts?

LP: Oh, yes. He's been with Dog for a few years.

CO: Dog?

LP: Well, they call him Hot Dog or whatever they call him -- known as Dog.

CO: That was his nickname?

LP: Umm hmm.

CO: And Charles Roberts, he hasn't been found either. He's one of the six. One of them has been found. How did Aaron get on with Charles Roberts?

LP: They've got on great. I mean, Charles was there for him whenever he needed it. And he worked for Charles. And Charles went out west for a few years. And when he came back, Aaron was the first person, he called to come back out on the boat with him. So they got along great.

CO: What's your best memory of Aaron?

LP: Every single one of them. Every memory of my son is great.

CO: And you recently lit a sacred fire for your father in law -- for Aaron's grandfather -- is that right?

LP: Yes, we've had two in the last month and a half. Our community has had quite a few hits in the last month and a half. We lost two elders, a past elder's wife, and my son. That's four of them. And we've had quite the impact in my community.

CO: Lori I am so sorry you're going through all of this. And this is the community of Annapolis Valley First Nation.

LP: Yes.

CO: How much support are you getting from the community in these past two days?

LP: Lots. I have had support since November 28. And it has never stopped.

CO: How important is it to you and the other families that they recover the bodies and learn what happened?

LP: It's very important. It's closure.

CO: Just so we can get a better sense of Aaron -- if there's a story, if there's something you can just tell us about him, that gives us a sense of him.

LP: He just like to have fun. He was a jokester. He was a good kid. If you needed something, he had it, you got it. He was very generous. He was just...he was perfect.

CO: Sounds like a great guy.

LP: He was a great guy.

CO: Lori, I really appreciate that you'd take our call.

LP: Thank you.

CH: Lori Phillips is the mother of Aaron Cogswell, one of the six fishermen whose boat went down off the coast of Nova Scotia yesterday. She was in Annapolis Valley First Nation, Nova Scotia. And late this afternoon, the search for the crew members was suspended.

[Music]

U.S. vaccines: Black community

Guest: Roy Dunlap

CH: When he was given the opportunity, Roy Dunlap decided to be amongst the first Americans to get the Pfizer COVID vaccine. Mr. Dunlap works at Howard University Hospital, a historically Black institution that still serves that community in Washington, D.C. And he's well aware of the fact that Black Americans are three times more likely to die from the virus than others. A member of the cleaning staff he supervises at the hospital died of COVID. But he was still a bit nervous about getting the newly developed shot. We reached Roy Dunlap at Howard University Hospital in D.C..

CO: Roy, how did your family react when you told them that you were going to get the vaccine?

ROY DUNLAP: Well, when I bring up a subject, in our family when we bring up a subject, we usually have a family dinner. So I have my three kids there and my wife and I just announced that, hey, I want to get the vaccine for COVID-19. My son, his eyebrows raised because he knows, like, uh oh, because he already know that his mother wouldn't like that. You know, she raised her head. She asked me why -- why are you taking the vaccine? I explained to her, I said, you know, this is the way, this is what we need to do. She asked, why can't it be somebody else? Why can't you wait to see how it affects somebody else? Because your family needs you.

CO: But what's the concern? Your son with the "uh oh" look, and your wife. What's behind that?

RD: I think just over the years, you know, the next portrayal of the vaccine starting with Tuskegee thing you know, being a person of colour and being a person of African-American descent, there's a lot of things that was portrayed to our community about vaccines over the years. And we still hear vaccine, we hear about the flu vaccine and how it's connected to autism, and a lot of times vaccines cause this and it has side effects. So I think as an African-American community, they kind of don't trust vaccines.

CO: So the idea that the flu vaccine might give autism and things like that. We will just state here that's not true. But what you also mentioned, though, is the Tuskegee case, which was a syphilis study, a notorious infamous case where doctors, this was in the 1930s, they left hundreds of Black men untreated with syphilis for decades just to study how it would affect them. It was just an awful thing. So is that on people's minds when they consider whether they can trust public health to give them a good vaccine?

RD: Well, I can't speak for the whole African-American community or Latino community, but I think when I put on Facebook that I took the vaccine, a lot of people, 90 percent of the people was positive, but the 10 percent was like, oh no. People start sending me links of side effects of the vaccine, this is why you shouldn't take it. Others saying, what are you doing? You should have waited. Your life is ruined. So I heard those comments too as well. So, you know, like I say, I can't speak for the whole African-American public. But those are things you generally hear in our community about vaccines.

CO: Before you left the house to get the shot, your wife asked you to pray with her, didn't she?

RD: Yes.

CO: And did the ease anxieties?

RD: It actually did. You know, because it's on my mind throughout the course of the night thinking about it -- am I making the right choice? Is there going to be any side effects? If something does happen to me who is going to take care of my family? But my mind was made up. When I got up in the morning, I took a shower, I'm about to walk out of my bedroom and my wife, she's asleep at this time. And she calls it back, actually said, no, I need to pray with you. And she prayed with me and actually it made me feel more at ease knowing that, you know, I am in the creator's hands. So, yes, the prayer did make me feel at ease.

CO: At the same time, you work at a hospital. You know that Black Americans are three times more likely to die from that COVID virus. This is a horrible thing that's happening in your country, in our country, but huge numbers in your country and especially to African-Americans. So isn't that on people's minds when they weigh the balance to see what should they do?

RD: I think it is on people's mind when those numbers are thrown out there. But I guess still the trustworthiness of the vaccines and the side effects. And that's one of the reasons why I want to show people like I'm taking the vaccine and you have to trust the process of what's going to happen. I mean, somebody has to go out there, somebody has to do it and be this lead and be an example.

CO: You work, as I mentioned, at Howard University Hospital. This is a historically Black institution, serves that community in Washington, D.C. so well. And what have you and your colleagues seen of the virus there?

RD: Well, I can speak for the people who work at the hospital, especially because it is a training process for me. I see a staff of 70-75, 6-7 managers on the staff too as well. You know, my staff directly deals with COVID-19. So any COVID-19 case that comes to the hospital, we have the cleaning, we have to sanitise that area. A lot of my staff is exposed to the COVID-19. A lot of my staff, I'd say about maybe 10 or more staff members had COVID-19 -- that were out due to COVID-19. I had a staff member earlier this year that passed away. He didn't catch it here at the facilities, but he caught it from his wife. He wound up passing away. He was here when he passed away.

CO: How different will things be for you with the vaccination? Does it affect you? How does it affect your life personally?

RD: Well, it's only been 24 hours...

CO: And you have to get another shot, right?

RD: I have to get another shot in 21 days. For me, I feel refreshed and confident knowing that it's going to work. And I feel confident that I'm setting the prime example. That's the reason why I put it on Facebook. A lot of them looking at this -- I had a meeting with my staff yesterday evening, and had a meeting with my staff this morning and showing my arm that I took the shot. This is something that we need to do if we want to combat COVID-19.

CO: And what gave you the confidence and trust in the vaccine?

RD: Well, for one, my CEO, you know, announced two to three weeks ago that she was taking it. I was one of people, like, you know, 'I'm not going to take that. I don't know what's in it.' But, you know, I started doing my research from Pfizer and other company that's been doing these studies on it, and I think the CEO gave me that confidence, like, hey, if she could do it, I could do it too. So it gave me that confidence just to follow their leads, say, hey, this is something that we need to do.

CO: Roy, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

RD: No problem. No problem.

CH: Roy Dunlap is the head of environmental services at Howard University Hospital in Washington, D.C. And that's where we reached him.

[Music]

Camel plastic research

Guest: Marcus Eriksen

CH: The world has a plastic problem. Lately, researchers are finding plastic waste just about everywhere they look, especially in the digestive tracts of sea animals. But a newly published study has found this is even a problem for animals on land: camels in the deserts near Dubai. Researchers found plastic masses as large as 80 kilograms inside their stomachs. That's more than three times the weight limit for a carry-on bag on most airlines. Marcus Eriksen is a plastics researcher and one of the authors of the camel research. We reached him in Los Angeles.

CO: Marcus, we have heard a lot about birds and marine creatures ingesting plastics, but how did desert camels come to be on your radar?

MARCUS ERIKSEN: It's really interesting. You know, I've explored the oceans for quite a while, almost 10 years in expeditions. And I got an invitation to explore the Gulf of Arabia off the coast of Dubai, Qatar, Kuwait, and Oman. I spent a few weeks there. And I was in Dubai and I met a veterinarian. And we got to talk about plastic waste, plastic pollution. And he said, if you want to see impacts of plastics, come with me. And we went about almost 100 kilometres into the desert over these beautiful rolling sand dunes. Get to top of one look, across the landscape, and there are these big piles of white bones, which is normal for camels to wander in the desert and when they die the bones stick around for a long time. We walked down to one skeleton and we look inside the rib cage -- his name is Dr. Ulrich Wernery -- he pulls out two ribs, hands one to me and says, start digging. So we're digging inside this camel's chest. I'm thinking this is the most surreal thing in the world. And within a few minutes, we pull out this mass of tangled plastic bags and rope about as big as a large suitcase. And my jaw dropped.

CO: And was this just an isolated case or did he say that this was common amongst the camels to have these plastic masses in their guts?

ME: Well, it's much more common than you would think, unfortunately. He has been studying camels in the United Arab Emirates, in Dubai, at the hospital he co-founded for more than 25-30 years. And he said he's had more than 295 camels -- that was in our research paper. We collected five that day. So a total of, you know, 300 examples of where animals that died all had masses of plastic trash in their stomach.

CO: How big were these masses of plastic?

ME: They ranged from the size of a basketball to roughly a large suitcase. Here in Los Angeles, I've got five of these in my garage. One of them weighs about 80 kilograms. It's massive. A lot of ropes and plastic bags. I've got one that's maybe as big as a medium sized suitcase, as big as my torso, like a giant potato. And I cut it in half and through and through, it's only plastic bags between I'd say 2500 and 3000 plastic bags all compressed. Now, what's interesting is that, you know, it's normal for ruminants like horses and camels and cows and goats to eat all kinds of materials. And they form these things in their guts called bezoars. So it's a little calcified little mass that forms over time. And traditionally they remain kind of small. But now we have this anthropogenic trash that they're consuming and they're much much larger. So we're actually calling them a polybezoar. So these polybezoars, they're a new feature in camel biology.

CO: Why do the camels eat the plastic?

ME: Well, you can think of the camels and what they know -- all they know in the desert, if it's not sand, it's food. And they wander about. If they see a plastic bag stuck in a tree or stuck against a fence, they might think, oh, that's a novel piece of food and they'll consume it. Now, there also might be food residue on some of their plastic trash, like some salt or oils on the bag might make it taste like food. So it is a food mimic. But I should also say they also eat it because it's just abundant. Plastic bags are the great escape artists. They fly out of the best containment systems that are waste management systems have available on the planet. They blow out of landfills, out of trucks, out of garbage cans. So they blow out of these containers and just go across the desert.

CO: Are there more of these plastic bags? I mean, anyone who's travelled in many parts of the world, you to see them. Plastic bags are tangled in trees and in fences and they blow everywhere. Are there more of them now in the deserts around Dubai than there used to be?

ME: Yes, much much more. So if you remember back in 1991, the first Gulf War when the United States went into Kuwait. I was one of the Marines on the ground back then before my career in science. When I went back there, I could not believe the amount of trash blowing across the desert. It was just a thousand times than what I remember when I was there back in 1991. So the ubiquity of trash in these environments is really very recent. The last few decades, we've seen an explosion of single-use plastics around the world.

CO: And so what do you suggest then can be done about this?

ME: Well, what we're seeing, you know, plastic bags are the poster child for the single-use plastic problem. Single-use plastics, they have this very temporary benefits of a bag holding a groceries from the store to the car or a straw you use for a few minutes to drink your beverage. But they're made of material that's really designed to last forever, and they do. So what we're seeing happening around the world, the world is waking up to, the true cost of single-use is so expensive, the harm, the cost to waste management, the cost to ecosystems, we just don't need them. So you are seeing like in the EU, they banned single-use plastics. In the United States here there is a bill to break free from plastic bill looking to eliminate single-use plastics from the United States. And around the world, there are hundreds of plastic bag bans. So I think what we're seeing is the world putting legislation on the table to eliminate plastic bags and at the same time, create an open space for a lot of innovative solutions, alternative ways to deliver goods to people without the legacy of trash. So I have been in this issue for 20 years, I'm pretty excited seeing all the innovation that's transforming the world of packaging and getting us off that single-use plastic habit.

CO: That's encouraging to know. Marcus, it's a terrible story. I'm glad you told us about. Thank you.

ME: Thank you very much.

CH: Marcus Eriksen is one of the lead authors of a new study, The Plight of Camels Eating Plastic Waste. That researchers published in the Journal of Arid Environments. We reached Mr. Eriksen in Los Angeles. And you can find more on the story on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

The Accountant

VOICE 1: He was taken three years ago by an undercover agent.

VOICE 2: It's the same person.

VOICE 1: He was spotted in Tehran, Tel Aviv and Naples. This guy risks his life -- un-cooking the books for some of the scariest people on the planet. Drug cartels, arms brokers, money launderers, assassins. Who survives this kind of clientele? Imagine the secrets this guy has.

CH: Imagine. A clip from the trailer for the 2016 thriller The Accountant, in which Ben Affleck plays a brilliant accountant with autism who works for underworld figures and is also phenomenal at martial arts and shooting guns -- a film which was not hailed by critics as plausible. In fact, the critical consensus was it's fine and it also did fine at the box office. And yet one unnamed Moroccan businessman who appeared in it sued Warner Brothers Studios over the film, claiming it had damaged his moral standing and his business, and demanding a quarter of a million euros in compensation. In The Accountant, the man's photo appears under the title "Suspected Gambino Family Associates." Apparently, the filmmakers had found his picture on an actual FBI arrest warrant from 2004 and used it without his permission. So he argued his reputation was damaged. But a Spanish court had second thoughts -- that is it had thoughts about his time on screen, which was approximately a second. One second, not even a full Mississippi. So ultimately it awarded him 25,000 euros because he hadn't given consent for his photo to be used. But it politely rejected his argument that an appearance this long could affect his clientele. Seems fair, even if the guy thought he'd get more. But sometimes you get a fleeting glimpse of success and sometimes you just are a fleeting glimpse.

[Music]

Part 2: François-Philippe Champagne

François-Philippe Champagne

Guest: François-Philippe Champagne

CH: Francois-Philippe Champagne doesn't believe Tehran. Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister told our colleague Vassy Kapelos yesterday that he doesn't buy the Iranian government's claim that Ukrainian Airlines Flight 752 was shot down as the result of mistakes made by six members of its Revolutionary Guard. 176 passengers were killed when the missile struck their plane earlier this year. 138 were Canadians or had Canadian ties. Minister Champagne and his prime minister promised answers for the families, and Iran's refusal to provide those answers hasn't been this year's only frustration for Canada on the world stage. We reached Foreign Affairs Minister Francois-Philippe Champagne in Ottawa.

CO: Minister Champagne, the first time I ever interviewed you was in January, just after Iran shot down Flight 752, and you were very passionate and very adamant that you were going to get to the bottom of what happened, but you haven't. Why not?

FRANÇOIS PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: I still have the same passion, Carol. I still have the same passion, the same resolve with the prime minister. I mean, we made a solemn promise to the families, which was to, you know, get to the bottom of things, to ask the tough questions and to seek accountability, justice and transparency. And, you know, it's a long road to justice. I know we're coming to the one year mark and it's painful for the families. Every day is painful. I spent three hours with them just earlier this week. And this is something very personal to me because I've met many, many of them. And we all know it's a difficult road. But one thing they know is that we will never surrender.

CO: But why no answers? After almost a year you've been trying we realise that, but what is preventing you from finding out even the basics of why that flight was allowed to take off?

FRANÇOIS PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Well, we're dealing with Iran. And I'm sure, Carol, everyone who's listening would understand that the fact that we don't have access to witnesses, that we don't have access to the suspects, that we don't have access to the physical evidence is making that investigation challenging. But let me say, when we started, even when you and I talked first last year, we had four key milestones. The first one was to get consular access. We knew we had families who were grieving and wanted to get to Iran. And as you know, we did not have consular contacts for almost 10 years and we still don't have a presence in Tehran. The second thing was the repatriation of the remains to be done in accordance with the wishes of the families and in a respectful manner. The third one was the investigations, both the air safety investigation, which is ongoing, and the criminal investigations, which is still ongoing. And finally, the negotiation on reparations. So the air safety investigation, we expect -- and Iran asked to under the annexe 13 of the International Civil Aviation Organisation convention to submit a so-called report by January 8th. Obviously, I don't hold my breath. I don't judge Iran by the words, but by their actions. But we're going to be ready to really challenge that report and we're going to do that with the Transport Safety Board of Canada. But also you may have seen that we launched a forensic team drawing from intelligence agencies, experts in all sorts of fields, to be able to challenge and to make sure that equipped me to fight the right fight on behalf of the family.

CO: As this very strange year ends, I want to ask you about the next one. We know that principle difference on the international stage is a change of government in Washington. Mr. Trudeau said that your government is very well aligned with the Biden administration. So what does that mean for your work in international affairs with Mr. Biden as the president?

FRANÇOIS PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Well, first of all, you know, at the outset, I said it's good news for Canada. I mean, first of all, we have people in the White House which are very familiar with Canada, Vice President elect Harris, President elect Biden knows very well our prime minister, but also the secretary of state designate Antony Blinken who was in charge of Canada when he was number two at the State Department. So, you know, what I think are the areas where we can do more together -- I mean, the first one which obviously concerns everyone and your listeners is the COVID response, both with respect to the vaccines, with respect to the borders, and respect to the supply chain. You know, for me, one thing that I've learnt in 2020, apart from the fact that humanity is fragile but resilient, is that supply chains are becoming more regional. We're moving from global supply chain to regional where resiliency is more important than efficiency. And that for me is good news because we are so integrated. We're blessed by geography with the United States to do more together.

CO: But just on that. I just want to ask you, because Mr. Biden has promised "Buy American" will even be perhaps more pronounced under his administration than the Trump administration. So what is it you're hearing that makes you think that you're going to be more integrated with the U.S. market and those supply chains?

FRANÇOIS PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: I'll tell you something, I was talking to one of my predecessors recently and someone who had a high office in our country. And I was saying, you know, there's always been win of protectionism. And I said over the last decades and someone corrected me, said Minister, over more than a century. So this is not new. You know, we face protectionism with Republican White House, with Democrats. But I think that security of supply chain is becoming more important than ever. Whenever I've heard Buy America, I think the answer should be, why don't we talk more about Buy North America?

CO: But Mr. Biden is not saying Buy North America. He's saying Buy America.

FRANÇOIS PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: But I mean, we will certainly advocate to defend Canadian interests. And my thing I would say, Carol, is: what is the big prize? The big prize is how can we innovate more together, how can we manufacture more together, and how can we sell more together to the rest of the world? Because that's the way to create the innovation that we want. That's the way to create the jobs that we want. And that's the way to create the prosperity that we will need coming out of this pandemic. And I think on the fight against climate change, I mean, the words of President elect Biden are inspiring, wanted to rejoin the Paris agreement. I think we'll get along superbly on that. And then multilateralism and I think one thing we'll see the I expect it's more stability and predictability and that's something that the world needs very much, hopefully in 2021 and beyond.

CO: And that brings us to China, because Mr. Trudeau, in an interview with Global, said that he hopes that he'll have good news before Christmas about the Micheals, about Michael Kovirg and Michael Spavor. Based on what? What are you hearing that might help bring those Micheals home?

FRANÇOIS PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Well, the first thing I would say with respect to that is we're following very carefully. Obviously, what was reported in the United States, I can't really comment on an open court case, whether in Canada or the United States. But certainly we're following that very carefully. But if I look back when you and I talk in 2020 at the beginning of the year, one of the things we have achieved is to make sure that the case of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor is no longer seen as two Canadians being arbitrarily detained or facing one of the worst kind course of diplomacy. But they were seen as too citizen of a liberal democracy. And one of the things we've been able is to gather support around the world, to speak with one voice and certainly to advocate for the release. I mean, for me, it was telling this year, Carol, that even in the summit between the European Union and China, the case of Michael Kovirg and Michael Spavor was raised. It was even part of the communique. It's no longer just a bilateral issue. It's a multilateral issue. And we know that China is presenting some of the most challenging geopolitical challenges we're facing. The answer to that is to work together and to stand up together.

CO: But you mentioned a court case -- are you talking about the possibility of a deal between the Department of Justice and Meng Wanzhou? That's been hinted at by reporters who spoke to sources that believed the Trump administration might even want to do that before the Biden administration can. Is that a possibility do you see outside of the courts that there would be a deal?

FRANÇOIS PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Well, like I said, I can't comment directly on that. But I think what I'm saying is that we're following that very carefully and being a lawyer and knowing a bit of the U.S. legal system, obviously, we're looking at that and what may happen there, clearly. But if I look even on the consular side, you may recall that I caused the meeting with my counterpart, Wang Yi, in Rome, which is quite unusual for two foreign ministers to meet in a third country. But I had wind that he would be there, so we caused the meeting to happen, had a very robust discussion for over two hours. And I think it was from 9 p.m. to 11, which is also exceptional under the circumstances. But from there, thanks to the work of Ambassador Barton, our diplomats and all that, we have been able to restore consular access. And you saw a recent statement that we have on site, virtual access now to check on their well-being. Now, clearly, China, in my discussion, I was telling them that they needed to respect their legal obligations under the Vienna Convention and that we will insist that every step of the way. But that's the fact that now we can speak to them and ensure their well-being and the fact that the international community sees of the case of Michael Kovirg and Spavor, for us and the pressure we're going to continue to put with our allies certainly gives us the strength to say that we have reasons to be cautiously optimistic, and that this thing is moving.

CO: Just a few minutes we have left. I wanted to ask you about what in a larger sense, what role you believe Canada should be playing on the world stage. That even as we move into the Biden administration, the U.S. has been withdrawing from the international stage even before Mr. Trump. And many countries are wondering why Canada doesn't step up and play a leadership role. Is that something that you would like to see in your portfolio?

FRANÇOIS PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Well, at every step of the way, Carol. I would say if you look at 2010 and reflect back, I mean, just you mentioned PS752 -- I mean, it was that the initiative of Canada that we created this international response group with the United Kingdom, Sweden, Afghanistan and Ukraine. During the COVID crisis, I did text diplomacy. First of all, the repatriation, I must say, this was probably the largest repatriation in Canada history in peacetime, hundreds of thousands of Canadians. And there we even created the COVID-19 foreign ministers group. And this was just created out of me sending text messages to colleagues and say, listen, we ought to talk more often. I think that Canada has been there. And certainly my intention in 2021 and one learning from this is that, yes, Canada can play a role and we expect our U.S. colleagues will come on board. But like every country, they'll have a lot of domestic issue, and with respect to the COVID response and the economic recovery, so we'll continue to be the best partner and make sure that we fight for our values, our principles, model of governance. And I think with that we will be able to work very well together.

CO: Mr. Champagne, I'm sure we will be speaking in the New Year, and I appreciate speaking with you the end of this one.

FRANÇOIS PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: It's always a pleasure. And let's hope that 2021 will bring a bit more peace and stability for all of us. So with that, I wish you happy holidays and to all your listeners.

CO: Same to you. Thank you.

FRANÇOIS PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Thank you very much. Merci.

CH: Francois Philippe Champagne is Canada's Minister of Foreign Affairs. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music]

Encore: Prickles the Sheep

CH: Prickles was social distancing way before it was cool. In fact, she's done it to an extent many of us would find excessive. The now famous sheep spent seven solitary years on the lamb lost in the wilds of Tasmania before turning up unexpectedly earlier this year. And when she did, she had more than loneliness in common with the rest of us. She was also boasting a truly monumental mop -- so monumental that it made Prickles an instant celebrity. And as her owner, Alice Gray, told Carol back in April, it was a lot of fun wool it lasted.

CO: Alice, can you tell us, first of all, how did Prickles come to go missing?

ALICE GRAY: Well, about seven years ago, there was a massive bushfire in our part of the world in Denali, and our whole farm got burnt. Luckily, our houses were saved, but we lost about 50 kilometres of fencing. We believe that Prickles got separated from the rest of sheep when we had to rebuild those fences because we ended up on the wrong side in about a 200 acre bush section of our farm, away from all the other shape.

CO: Prickles was a lamb at that point. When did you realise that the lamb was on the lam?

ALICE GRAY: Well, we didn't actually, because we are sheep farmers and we have lots and lots of sheep, we knew we'd lost lots of sheep in the fire. We didn't realise that this particular sheep had gone.

CO: Wow. So in seven years, for the most part, you've seen neither hide nor hair of this sheep. But when did you and how did you come to start getting a sense that pPrickles might be out there?

ALICE GRAY: My father in law had put some night vision cameras at the back of our farm to see if we had any wild deer. He was looking back over the footage and saw this great white fluffy thing come and peer down into the lens. So it looked like a very peculiar creature, but he assumed it could only be a sheep that had been either not shorn for about seven years because it was massive and fluffy.

CO: And this is one of those sheep that doesn't get wool on its face, like the black face sheep.

ALICE GRAY: It is a white face sheep, but it's a bare face shape, which means it doesn't grow wool in its face, which was lucky because if she'd been growing wool on a face, he would have gone wool blind without being shorn. So instead, he's got this beautiful little face and these gigantic sort of crazy hairdo behind her head.

CO: Okay, so what did you do in order to get Prickles home again?

ALICE GRAY: Well, it was Good Friday and it was my son Barclay's six birthday and he couldn't have a birthday party because, of course, we are in isolation here in Tasmania like the rest of the world. And so we went up to the back of our farm for a barbecue. And while we were setting up, we looked across a dam and we saw this big round thing on the other side of the dam like, oh, my God, I think that is that crazy shape that we saw in the video. So we were just having our barbecue lunch when my husband went missing. And about 15 minutes later, he called back and he was puffing and panting. He's like "come and help!" He trapped the shape in the corner of a paddock and was lying on it and he needed us to go and help him sort of struggle this huge sheep into the back of a ute.

CO: And a ute is what?

ALICE GRAY: Oh, sorry. [Chuckles] I think you call it a truck. It's like a car with a trailer on the back. Anyway, we had the grandparents with us, so it took five of us to be able to manage to struggle this giant sheep into the back of the car to get it back to our farmyard.

CO: Okay, now I've seen a picture. I mean, this is one massive ball of war. I mean, you can lose a small child in there.

ALICE GRAY: I know. I know. Well, you certainly could. And she had a few Prickles in her fleece, which is, of course, why my son named her Prickles. Yes. She's quite a sight to behold and she's quite glorious. But luckily, she was very healthy and all of that and very nimble for something with, you know, with such extreme proportions.

CO: So you wrestle this massive wool ball into the ute and took her home. How does Prickles feel about being back?

ALICE GRAY: Well, when we brought her back into the yard, the first thing was I think she must have been quite confused, we have a few turkeys and ducks around. She was chasing them around, having a wonderful time. But then she was put in with some sheep and she's now just seems to be part of the flock again. They're very comfortable wandering around together, despite the fact she's about five times the size of the others.

CO: Is she going to get shorn at some point?

ALICE GRAY: Yes. Now, what we thought at the time, we were joking on the day that Prickles is a master at social distancing. And so then we were thinking about her fleece and just how incredible it was. And we decided we'd raised money for something to do with COVID-19. And so we decided that the worst place on the planet to be at the moment with this disease would be in a refugee camp. So we decided we'd save the shearing into the first of May, and in the interim we'd have a competition where people could get the weight of a fleece and the money would go to the UNHCR, which is the United Nations Refugee Charity, because in some of these refugee camps, they can't socially isolate and they don't have good sanitation. So we're using the happy story of Prickles coming home for a good cause.

CH: Alice Gray speaking with Carol in April from Denali, Australia about the unexpected return of Prickles the sheep after a seven year absence. That homecoming generated a huge response, probably because many of us saw something of ourselves in prickles and more specifically in how severely unkempt she had become. So when her spectacular fleece was finally shorn for a good cause. We decided to check back in with Ms. Gray about the big event.

CO: Alice the last time we spoke to you, you described Prickles as a glorious sight to behold the massive and fluffy. How is she looking today?

ALICE GRAY: Well, today she's looking quite a bit smaller. On Friday, we removed her huge fleece and now she is quite a bit smaller and much much faster running around the paddock.

CO: So how did she take to being sheared for the first time?

AG: Well, she was a bit nervous, of course, being in a shearing shed. And we had two different TV crews who turned up to watch because Prickles is a big celebrity in Australia. But she took it very well and she didn't protest at all. And the fleece came off very quickly. It took six minutes to shear her.

CO: Good heavens! I mean, I don't know much about sheep shearing, but I can't believe that that much wool came off so quickly. Were you surprised?

AG: I was surprised. The other thing we were surprised about was the weight of her fleece, because she looks so huge in the outer edge of her. Her fleece was quite rough, which is why we called her Prickles. And even the shearer was so shocked when he started to shear her because we found that she was a superfine merino, meaning she has the most superb quality wool. And it was so soft and so white and so fluffy underneath that it came off beautifully, weighed much less than we thought.

CO: We did talk about that. But how much wool did you think that Prickles had?

AG: Well, my guess was I thought she'd be about 20-25 kilos, but it wasn't at all.

CO: What did you get it?

AG: It was 13.6 kilos. But considering that a superfine merino usually has 2.5 kilos, she still had way more than your average sheep.

CO: But Prickles didn't beat the record. I understand the record holder is Chris the Merino from Canberra. She didn't come close to what Chris had.

AG: Didn't even come close. And my husband had to explain this to me because I couldn't understand how after seeing Prickles being 13.6 could be as huge as this other sheep which was over 40 was because it wasn't as good a quality fleece so it weighed a lot more. I've learned a lot about wool in this process. [Laughter]

CO: So being it is the first time that this sheep has ever been sheared, is it a different quality. Does it come in quite fine because of that?

AG: All I know is it's absolutely superb wool and it was just so lovely to see it come off and her running around in the shearing shed, just looking quite relieved to have this huge load taken off her.

CO: Okay. I mean, she's survived seven years on the lamb, so to speak. And so that wool probably kept her warm during a few nights, right?

AG: Absolutely. But when we did shear her, we used what they call a snow cone. So when they shear her, they leave a little bit extra on the edge of her skin. So it's kind of like a layer of woolen underwear. She still has a little wool to keep her warm. And also she's put in a paddock next to an orchard which has a little shed in it. And so she's got plenty of shelter from the weather. And on the first couple of nights, she slept in the shearing shed with her friends just to make sure that she was acclimatised. We're very very worried about making sure that Prickles is very well looked after.

CO: She did spend seven years being free, being out there some place. So how is she taking to confinement?

AG: Well, she doesn't seem to mind it at all as long as she's with the sheep that she's now very attached to. There's a particular sheep that always gets between Prickles and anyone who walks into the paddock or the shed. So I think she's got some pretty strong bonds with other sheep. So I think she's going to be just fine.

CO: You don't worry that she's going to get a longing for the wild, that she's going to want to live free once again.

AG: I don't think so. I think she's got a lot of areas she can run around in. She's got protection in paddocks. I think she's going to be just fine.

CO: You said that she is very famous in Australia. We had tremendous reaction here too when we talked to you last about Prickles. And of course, the picture was just magnificent. But why do you think Prickles is so popular?

AG: So I think it's a couple of reasons, I think firstly, so many of us at our homes isolating all over the world and we see so much news, we see so much sadness everywhere. And I think a good news story is just what everybody needs. I think the other thing is the story about how Prickles was self isolating and comparing it to people who can't self isolate and raising money for refugees and linking the two stories together has really resonated with people.

CO: And just remind people how you were raising money with Prickles.

AG: Well, initially we had a competition where people could guess the weight of Prickles' fleece, make a donation, and the money would go to UNHCR, which is the United Nations Refugee Agency. But now she's been sheared, people are just making donations just because they want to be part of Prickles' legacy of supporting these people who need our help so much at this time. And the tally just continues to rise. When we started, our goal was 500 dollars, and now we're up to twelve thousand seven hundred dollars.

CO: That's impressive. Wow. Well, thank you for entertaining us with Prickles, and I hope she has a good life with you.

AG: Thank you so much.

CH: Tasmanian sheep owner Alice Gray speaking with As It Happens Again this past May. To revisit our coverage of Prickles's spectacular coverage and its eventual removal, go to: cbc.ca/aih. And we will have more of your favourite interviews from 2020 in the days to come on As It Happens.

[Music]

Cleveland Drops Name

CH: The women who've accused Peter Nygard of horrific abuse were waiting to see him arrested for a long time, and so was Kai Nygard -- his son. He says he and members of his family were relieved to see the FBI indict his father on charges of racketeering, sex trafficking, and related crimes, and to see the RCMP and Winnipeg police arrest him on Monday. The 79 year old Canadian fashion mogul is accused of sexual abuse spanning decades against dozens of victims in the U.S., the Bahamas, and Canada. A total of 57 women have joined a class action lawsuit accusing Mr. Nygard of rape, sexual assault, and human trafficking. Kai Nygard spoke with the CBC's Caroline Barghout about the reaction to his father's arrest.

KAI NYGARD: I think we're all just elated because the tactics that we've seen him deploying, especially over the last nine months, have been Machiavellian. He is doing every single thing that he can with no regard of the law to manoeuvre his way out of this situation and convince everybody that it's just a massive conspiracy against him. So I think this is really going to be a case study of also how some of these, like high profile people, are able to get away with something for so long using these tactics. And I'm just absolutely thrilled to find out that he's going to have to face a trial and go through the judicial process and not be able to just take off with a pot of money offshore somewhere.

CAROLINE BARGHOUT: Can you talk about the emotions that you're feeling?

KAI NYGARD: Yeah, it's been incredibly heartbreaking. I feel that the father that I knew started to die in my mind in May 2019 when I first had my own personal experience, where I thought I witnessed something that was completely out of line. And it's been a slow process that speeded up dramatically in February of 2010 as we started to get more and more information. And over the last eight months, I have really gone through a process where I feel the father that I knew and grew up with is almost like an obituary for me. But the focus has really been on supporting the victims. And I have to tell you, I've talked to so many victims that as I've investigated myself and tried to connect the dots here for the authorities. And that's why I think it really tops everything for me is that as much as it hurts me, the emotion that overrides that pain is support for the victims and wanting to do right by them. And those victims are not just women or children from the outside world, there is victims within my own family. So at the end of it all, what I feel is just a tremendous amount of relief that he's not able to take off. And then I also feel anger towards the people who are continuing to enable him, because I've found out more and more that this behaviour in his personal life has not just been all of a sudden this big reveal. This has been something that's been going on and people have been covering it up. And for me, that's very disturbing and it makes me angry. And the thing I'm just really focussed on and I think others are is just justice.

CH: Kai Nygard speaking with CBC reporter Caroline Barghout. Mr. Nygard's father, Peter Nygard, was arrested this week and accused by the FBI of the sexual assault of dozens of victims.

[Music]

Part 3: AI 2020 headlines

AI 2020 headlines

Guest: Janelle Shane

CH: Massive radioactive sinkhole continues to grow in Russia. Scientists discover the alien ant farm under the Antarctic ice. Albino green sea monster filmed at the wrong time. To be clear, those extremely plausible headlines were not actual news stories in 2020. Those headlines were generated by artificial intelligence under the direction of research scientist Janelle Shane. She posted them on her blog, A.I. Weirdness, where she uses algorithms to generate all kinds of things they were never really meant to, including knitting patterns, Halloween costumes, and some truly horrifying baking recipes. We reached Ms. Shane in Boulder, Colorado.

CO: Janelle, how could you possibly think that artificial intelligence could top some of the real headlines of 2020?

JANELLE SHANE: [Chuckles] Well, AI can come up with some really weird things. So there was a chance.

CO: What are some of your favourite artificial intelligence generated headlines from this year?

JS: Well, they run the gamut from incredibly kind of dark, and I do like some of those. Like there's one that goes "From deep in the earth darkness boils to the surface," [laughs] which is actually very 2020 in a way. Another one that I like that is kind of the opposite end of the spectrum is "A sassy tardigrade previews new Doctor Who" [laughter].

CO: And some of them -- I guess the AI is working with what? What are the words that it's actually trying to figure out the headlines with?

JS: Well, it's working from basically a snapshot of a lot of the Internet up until October 2019. So none of its training data actually includes anything about 2020. And then to sort of get it introduced to 2020, I gave it a selection of about a dozen headlines that I had collected that really happened in 2020. But, you know, the ones that I found were interesting, like headlines about murder hornets and glowing marsupials.

CO: And actually the list of the 2020 headlines you put in there -- and I don't know if this is a good side or bad side, but they're all stories that As It Happens covered. [Laughs] So the murder hornets and the desert mystery with that monolith that was found. We could easily have picked up any one of these A.I. weirdnesses headlines. Give us some other examples.

JS: Also fond of "One killer Orchid's attack: How the deadly corpse orchid is turning up in U.S. backyards."

CO: Of course, this isn't true, right? This is just what the AI figured from what the words and the ideas, the algorithms it was fed.

JS: Exactly. So it knows generally how different kinds of headlines go from its general Internet training. And then it has this little taste of 2020 via those, you know, murder hornets and whatever. And so based on the list of 2020 headlines, it's just trying to add other headlines to the list and predict what might come next in the list. And what I really like is that, you know, it has no indication that whether these are real headlines, whether these are tabloid headlines, and you can see that it is a little bit unsure. So we get some of its completions. There is one that says proof that a hellhound is living at Los Angeles Airport.

CO: Right. And then you have one reports of a 10 foot tall penguin roaming about on family islands in the Solomon Islands are investigated.

JS: Yeah, exactly. So I like that the headlines maybe are not real because it's not quite sure if these 2020 headlines are even real. So it doesn't know what type of headline it can be generating.

CO: It might be fun to put a bunch of real headlines with the A.I. generated headlines and see how many people can actually tell the difference.

JS: Yeah, I think they might be able to figure out, you know, "Researchers fear our solar system is being interfered with by alien space lasers." They may be able to...

CO: I'm not sure at this point. There are some pretty weird headlines. You got, "The mystery of the platypus deepens with the discovery of its biofluorescent fur." Is that AI or real?

JS: No, that was real. That was one of my prompt ones.

CO: There you go. So I don't know. If I had to put this together, given what kinds of headlines we see in 2020, it would be hard to tell the difference. What does this tell you about A.I., this experiment? You've done a number of experiments like this. What does it say?

JS: Well, I really like sort of poking at what does AI know and what does it not know? What information does it not have? And so this particular experiment is interesting because that training data cuts off and it doesn't know about that murder hornets are real, then we get, you know, othings like the Green Sea Monster as suggestions. And so that really tells us that, you know, these AIs are really depending on their training data, they can only replicate the situations of the past. And when they're doing all their predictions, they're predicting past behaviour. And so we can see that come up when we're trying to have these algorithms predict who should be hired or what scores students will get on their exams. And they kind of predict that things will never change, things will stay the same, we will always hire the same kinds of people we hired in the past. So I think that, yeah, I think it is a really interesting illustration of that.

CO: Well, what should this teach about the limitations, though, of A.I.?

JS: So this teaches us that AI only knows what it's seen in its training data and that the training data has a limit. If we don't tell it about 2020 specifically, then it doesn't have 2020 to draw on when it's trying to figure out if these are real headlines or not.

CO: And you've written about why A.I. is making the world a weirder place. How so?

JS: One of the other things that he doesn't understand is the context of what it's doing and how the world works and what's realistic and what's not realistic. And so you get the very weird stuff sort of suggested along with the real stuff. And the filtering is kind of spotty as coming from the AI.

CO: Okay, we'll give one more headline and we will leave it with people to see if they think it's true or false. "Hey, Curiosity Rover, don't go chasing shadow bugs." And we'll leave that and see and see if listeners can figure out if that one's true or made up by your algorithms. Janelle it's good to talk to you. Thanks.

JS: Great talking to you. Thank you.

CH: Janelle Shane is a research scientist and the creator of the blog AI Weirdness. She's also the author of the book, You Look Like a Thing and I Love You: How Artificial Intelligence Works And Why It's Making The World A Weirder Place. We reached her in Boulder, Colorado. And you can guess the reality of that shadow bugs headline on our Twitter or Facebook @CBCAsItHappens.

[Music]

Peace Tower Flag

CH: On Monday, we spoke with Stu Rathbone about his new flag. It's one of the nation's greatest and biggest and it generated some pretty great responses from you. It used to fly atop Parliament Hill's Peace Tower, and Mr. Rathbone acquired it thanks to a programme that started in 1994, a banner year for flag enthusiasts. But now the list of folks hoping to receive their own peace tower flag is a century long and not everyone is willing to wait. One of our listeners who heard that interview wrote to tell us how he got his hands on a flag back in the 80s during his, "checkered youth." It involved a bottle of red wine and a drunken climb up the peace tower, which we do not condone, by the way. And the climb itself would probably be tough to do sober. Regardless, he waves it with pride every Canada Day. Another listener is still on the waitlist. And he called our Talkback with a sobering point.

RAY: It's Ray Bernie calling from Fisher Branch, Manitoba. A few years ago, I saw something about how you could put your name on a list to get one of these flags. So I made contact and I was told that the waiting list was, I think, 45 years at that time. And at that time, I was already in my mid 60s. So there was a good chance I was not going to be alive to see my flag come in. But that's okay. I was able to apply for it anyway in the name of my granddaughter who had just been born. She's six now and she doesn't know anything about this, but she's old enough to know that when she's 41, she'll be getting a Canadian flag from her long deceased grandfather.

CH: That is a beautiful gift to pass on. And you didn't have to climb the peace tower to get it. If you're on the waitlist for a Peace Tower flag, email us at: aih@cbc.ca or call Talkback: 416-205-5687. For more on our story about Stu Rathbone and his giant Canadian flag, visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Dan McGuire

CH: Dan McGuire didn't let anything slow him down, not even Parkinson's disease. Mr. McGuire was a veteran cyclist from Vancouver. Throughout his life, he'd cycled all across Canada. And in 2007, when he was diagnosed with Parkinson's, he continued to ride. In fact, he upped the mileage. At 81 years old, he finished a 10,000 kilometre ride across Canada. Dan McGuire died on the weekend of COVID-19. He was 88. Back in 2013, Mmr. McGuire began his ride at the Top of the World Highway in B.C. He started the trip out on his road bike. But as his Parkinson's progressed, he traded it in for a recumbent bike. The entire trip took him two summers to finish. In August of 2014, he had almost completed his trip to Cape Spear Lighthouse in Newfoundland. When he was on Prince Edward Island, Dan McGuire spoke with the CBC about why it was so important for him, even as Parkinson's made it difficult for him to talk.

DAN MCGUIRE: Well it's the feel of you riding wheels on the road and it's quiet.

AMAR SHAH: And this big journey that you're undertaking right now across the country, across Canada is to raise awareness for Parkinson's. Tell me a bit about that.

DAN MCGUIRE: Well, I was diagnosed with Parkinson's in 2007. Parkinson's is a disease that takes balance -- my hand writing went all wrong and my speeches. My speech is really important. Cycling sort of helps keep everything going right. First of all it gives me strength. It keeps your muscles going. It gives strength and also purpose.

CH: That was Dan McGuire speaking with CBC P.E.I reporter Amar Shah in 2014. Mr. McGuire died over the weekend of COVID-19. He was 88 years old.

[Music]

Lichen

CH: Canada's official animal is the beaver, thanks in part to this very program. Its official tree, the maple, of course, and like it or not, we gained yet another official symbol earlier this year, at least according to popular vote. The results came through a competition we covered on the show in a story we took quite a liking to. It started with Canadian Museum of Nature, Lichenologist Troy McCullin, who announced the outcome of his quest to find Canadians favourite Leiken here on As It Happens happens in May.

TROY MCMULLIN: Well, Canadians have voted, over 18-thousand votes have come in for Canada's national lichen. And Canada has spoken, and the winner is star-tipped reindeer lichen.

CO: Oh, I like to name! What are its other special characteristics?

TM: Well, it's a great choice, largely because it's easy to identify. It's a spectacular species that grows mostly in the boreal and arctic regions that dominate our country. But this species can grow up to a foot thick and grow for hundreds of kilometres uninterrupted. It really has a lot of biomass in Canada. And it appears to have more biomass in Canada than anywhere else in the world. It's easy to identify. And it's also a very important food source for caribou in winter months.

CO: All these are commendable reasons why it should become Canada's lichen. But what does it look like, actually?

TM: I'm sure most Canadians have seen it when they get out of a canoe in the boreal forest and they step down on some rock outcrops and they hear a crunch beneath their feet. In many cases they are the reindeer lichens. So they're these spiky growths, they look like nets almost, growing on the ground. But this one's unique in that it creates these mounds that almost look like little mounds of cauliflower. And none of the other ones do that. So this one you can spot from far away, if you see these mounds of these little spiky, they look like little cushions. When they're wet, they're extremely soft. But when they're dry, they're crispy and they'll break. And that's actually how it reproduces. The little spikes that are formed on it, when a caribou let’s say steps on it, they'll break off as little fragments and they get stuck in the hair on the caribou and get carried to a new place And that's how it reproduces.

CO: Okay, so what percentage of Canadians, of those who voted, chose the star-tipped reindeer lichen?

TM: It was about five-thousand of the 18-thousand that voted for it. So, you know, quite a few. And, yeah, the next closest, for a second and third, there was virtually a tie. And they were a couple of thousand votes below that.

CO: the second was the elegant sunburst lichen?

TM: That's right. That's the bright orange one that grows on rocks.

CO: I would have thought that was going to win. And then there's the horsehair lichen.

TM: Right. That was third, but right there with the other one. But it's not as showy, but it has a great story behind it. It's also very common in the boreal forest. It drips off the trees all throughout the boreal forest. It's also a food for caribou. It's a real icon of the boreal forest that dominates our country. So that was a good choice as well.

CO: And it’s called horsehair because that’s what it looks like?

TM: That's right. It's not a particularly eye-catching species. You know, not compared to something that's bright orange on the rocks. But what it showed is that people were really reading about lichens and understanding them. And they're voting based on more than just that bright, showy colour, you know?

CO: Yeah. And very disappointing results for the common freckle pelt lichen. I thought that was a favourite.

TM: [chuckling] Yeah, It's a beautiful lichen.

CO: I mean, maybe it's the name? Maybe it needs, I don't know, better PR, branding, or something. I think it's suffered because of the name. I’m just guessing.

TM: [laughing] Yeah, that’s a good consideration.

CO: Now, does this mean that the star-tipped reindeer lichen actually now becomes Canada's national lichen?

TM: No, so the first step here was to come up with one. Then, now we have to see if we can get it officially listed as our national lichen. And we'll do that by proposing it to Heritage Canada. Or we can also go through a private member's bill and see if the policymakers will agree that it’s a good symbol for Canada.

CO: They should certainly clear the agenda and deal with this. This is very important.

TM: [laughing] I concur.

CO: [laughing] Now, included in the project is there for the provinces and territories are also picking their own provincial and territorial lichens. And so do we have results in those departments yet?

TM: We do. So over the last year, we've also been working on proposing a provincial and territorial lichen for each province and territory. As of just a couple of weeks ago, the last one was voted in in PEI. So we have proposals for all of those, and we're going to go through the same process. We will have them all forwarded to... Well, first, we were going to publish the results. We're going to submit it to the Canadian Field Naturalist and hopefully publish it there. And then we'll send a copy of our proposal, along with a letter, along with a poster that we've made of all the lichens to show the respective ministers to consider or take the legislator to consider as official emblems.

CO: Well, it would seem that by the numbers of people who voted for the national lichen, a lot of people share your passion.

TM: Yeah. It would seem so. Ever since we started this project, my inbox and my email has been overflowing with people reaching out with stories about their experience with lichens. And it's been wonderful to receive those.

CO: And we've had a lot of responses here to the first story, and I'm sure we'll hear it for this one as well. Troy, it's great to talk to you again. Thank you.

TM: Yeah. Thanks for following up with the story.

CO: Bye.

TM: Bye-bye.

CH: That's Lichenologist Troy McMullin telling Carol about the launch of a contest to choose Canada's favourite lichen in March. As you heard, star tipped reindeer like ultimately came out on top. But elegant sunburst lichen and horsehair lichen were close behind. And really, we liked them all. You can see pictures of star tipped reindeer and elegant sunburst lichen on our webpage at: cbc.ca/aih. And we will have more of our most memorable interviews in the days to come on As It Happens.

[Music]

Ember Mug

CH: In the New Yorker's 2020 Gift Guide, staff writer Rachel Syme makes a compelling case for an everlasting cup of hot coffee. Last week, she wrote about a product called Ember Mug, which retails for about 180 dollars Canadian. And Ms. Syme writes, it's for people like her who, "feel compelled to get up every 20 minutes to nuke their coffee yet again." Seems like a highly relatable problem. But to BBC host James Reynolds in London, the idea of keeping a drink perpetually hot leaves a bitter taste in the mouth.

JAMES REYNOLDS: Rachel, there is one gift. You talk about being plugged in that does divide people. I've been talking about it all day. It is this self-heating mug that seems to be so popular amongst some people that you plug it in and it keeps the same temperature. My point I'm against it is that the whole point of a mug is that it starts hot, gets cold, you have to pick the right temperature and your punishment, if you don't get the right temperature, you've got to drink it cold. This takes away the punishment.

RACHEL SYME: I can't believe you're such a [cross talking and laughter] It's called an ember mug. And I believe their new model is called the ember two. And they have both of travel version and then a version that you can use at the home. And yeah, it's a smart mug, which means you can connect it to your phone via Bluetooth and set it to keep your coffee or your tea at any temperature that you choose. And yeah, I love a very very scalding hot cup of coffee. So for me, this invention was a dream to find. But it's funny that you think it's okay to have cold coffee as a punishment.

JAMES REYNOLDS: [Laughter] All right. I might be in a minority.

KATTY KAY: Yeah, Rachel, it's weirdly British. We won't go there. It's something dark in his background when he didn't get, you know, hot coffee at school.

CHRIS HOWDEN: That was BBC host Katty Kaye and her co-host, James Reynolds, speaking with New Yorker staff writer Rachel Syme yesterday about the Ember mug.

December 16, 2020 Episode Transcript

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