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The AIH Transcript for July 15, 2020

Hosts: Nil Koksal and Ali Hassan

Prologue

NIL KOKSAL: Hello. I'm Nil Koksal, sitting in for Carol off.

ALI HASSAN: Good evening. I'm Ali Hassan, sitting in for Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

AH: Tonight:

NK: Low bar. Young people in Montreal are turning up for COVID-19 tests by the hundreds after the city told all bar-goers to get swabbed. The influx, though, has testing facilities overwhelmed.

AH: A nightmare on repeat. We reach a former federal day school survivor who says the settlement process is broken, and worse, it's adding to his trauma.

NK: Cold comfort. After Washington vows to change the name of its football team. Pressure is on once again for Edmonton to do the same. Our guest says it should not have taken this long for Canada to see Inuit are not mascots.

AH: We remember molecular virologist Flossie Wong-Staal. She was a pioneer of HIV/AIDS research. A colleague who's hard at work on a vaccine today tells us he's still drawing on lessons learned from her work.

NK: Chimp off the old block. It's been 60 years since Jane Goodall first walked into a forest in Tanzania to meet the creatures that would change her life. You'll hear the time she made chimpanzee sounds for the CBC.

AH: And a real whopper. Burger King claims it has produced a newer, lower emission burger from cows who released less climate damaging methane. But an expert in the field tells us he suspects it's all a bunch of hot air. As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Radio that has to admit: we're having a gas.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Montreal COVID testing

Montreal COVID testing

Guest: Kevin O’Connell

AH: Quebec's COVID-19 numbers are going the wrong way. More than 100 new infections are cropping up per day and the province is falling well short of its stated testing goals. And among those who are getting tested, positive tests are up. Dr. David Kaiser is a physician with the Public Health Authority for the Island of Montreal.

DAVID KAISER: Before the weekend, we were at a rate of about one percent, which means one positive test out of every hundred that is done. And what we saw from the tests that are coming in over the last few days is a rate at three percent. So that's three times as many positive tests per 100 tests that are done. And including the large increase in the actual number of tests. What that tells us is there really is something there that is worth continuing to deal with, that there are cases that wouldn't necessarily have been detected and that bringing young people out to get tested is going to help us with the public health response.

AH: There is some good news. Young people are listening to the city's call, for bar goers in particular, to get tested. Since the weekend, thousands have had swabs stuck in their noses. But testing facilities in the Montreal area are limited and lineups are very very long. Kevin O'Connell is the general manager at Annie's Pub in Sainte-Anne-de-Bellevue on the city's west island. Last week, the pub shut down after a staff member tested positive for COVID-19. Today, they reopened. We reached Mr. O'Connell in Montreal.

NK: Well, Mr. O'Connell, tell me about the decision to shut down Annie's Pub last week.

KEVIN O'CONNELL: So, yeah, last week, one of our staff members who is in administration, who normally doesn't deal with customers or staff, was pitching in on the weekend to help us out because we were extremely busy. And unfortunately, he came down with some symptoms. So he went immediately to get tested. And when his results came back as positive, we decided to shut down the restaurant so that we'd get everybody tested because unfortunately, he had come into contact with people in the restaurant -- not an extended amount -- but he had been in contact with people in the restaurant. So we closed down, sent everyone out for testing, and it took four days or so to get everyone's results back. But fortunately, everybody on the staff came back negative. So once that was the case, we decided to reopen today.

NK: That's a relief, I bet, to get all of those tests back negative.

KEVIN O'CONNELL: Huge relief. The four days were hard. You know, it was a voluntary shutdown because we just couldn't guarantee a safe environment for our staff or for the community or the patrons. So out of an abundance of caution, as I said, we closed down. But once we got the results back, there was a sense of relief for sure. And we open back up. However, we changed the procedures now, so we eliminated the bar. We have a bar area, but we're not allowing people to sit at the bar anymore. And we are no longer allowing walkup service. So anybody in the restaurant will have to remain at their table for service and we're requiring people to wear masks inside the establishment now.

NK: So, like in a lot of places, I bet the patio space, the outdoor space is a big part of your business. But it's interesting what you said just at the start of our chat about how busy it was the day that person who normally works in administration came into contact with everyone. People are still coming out.

KEVIN O'CONNELL: Yeah, it was the July first weekend. That Friday, Saturday and Sunday, we had an extreme amount of business. It was encouraging in one sense. But obviously, something happened. We don't know -- I don't know if my staff member was infected here or elsewhere and then maybe brought it to work. But with it not passing to anyone, we feel like, you know, the security measures we have in place were effective. But you're right, there were a lot of people out that weekend and there was a lot of people sort of, you know, not paying attention to the social distancing. So that's why we've implemented the rules of table service only, no mingling, no walking around. We want to maintain the secure feeling for everybody. So we're going to be pretty much doing our business on the terrace from now on.

NK: What was your experience getting tested like?

KEVIN O'CONNELL: Well, I went to a walk-in clinic because I wanted to get done as fast as possible, I'm the general manager here, so I was hoping to get my results as quick as possible. Unfortunately, the walk-in clinic I went to had 600 people show up that day and I was 200 in line. So it took me four hours for the test, and then three and a half days for the results.

NK: Wow.

KEVIN O'CONNELL: So those three and a half days were tough. I was at home in quarantine in my bedroom because I have a family, so I couldn't leave my bedroom for three and a half days until I got the results. But fortunately, they came back negative.

NK: Well, that's a relief.

KEVIN O'CONNELL: Yes, it was a huge relief. [Chuckles]

NK: What's your reaction then to all of the lineups, not just the one that you experienced, since the city started encouraging all of these bar-goers to get tested?

KEVIN O'CONNELL: Well, I wish they had, you know, maybe foreseen that there was going to be a big surge and demand and maybe had the testing centres prepared for the volume. But apart from that, I think it was a good idea to get the message out, because in the beginning we put the message out on our Facebook that, you know, it was a positive test and that's why we're closing. We wanted the message out there. And then people were asking us, is there going to be an announcement to the public? I said well that's not in our hands. And then the government went ahead and made that announcement. So I was relieved that they made the announcement in the sense that it took the pressure off of us and told everyone to go get tested. And the lineups show that people were concerned to find out if they were infected or not. So I think that's a good thing. I just wish there was more, you know, looking at the volume of people who would get tested.

NK: Our colleagues at CBC Montreal asked McGill microbiology and immunology chair Dr. Don Sheppard about this, how he felt about bars opening up in Quebec. I want to play you a little bit of what he said.

KEVIN O'CONNELL: Sure.

DON SHEPPARD: [SOUNDCLIP: You know what happens when you open bars and you have one case of someone in a bar, you have spread. And people should understand this is very likely to happen and ask themselves, is this really the best way for them to be acting at this point? And is it worth the risk? I actually think we're reaping a little bit what we showed when it comes to opening the bars in particular.]

NK: What do you say to his concerns?

KEVIN O'CONNELL: I say he's got a valid point there for sure. We have eliminated our bar service, in essence, because I agree with him in that sense that people congregating around bars is not very conducive to stifling this outbreak. So we're operating as a restaurant. So we're not going to operate as a bar anymore because we don't think that we can provide a safe environment for bar patrons.

NK: And you're coming into contact with so many people. You've talked about telling customers they have to wear masks when they come. What's the response been? Because we've certainly heard and seen in places across the United States, for example, even here in Canada, that some people are averse to taking that measure.

KEVIN O'CONNELL: So far today, since 11 o'clock, everybody's been told that they will be required to wear a mask if they come inside to use our facilities. And 100 hundred percent of the people have either had their own mask or willingly taken one from us and not given us any kind of attitude. So I think that bodes well. There's a mandatory mask requirement being put in place as of Saturday, province wide, so hopefully that sort of gets people ready for it. But I haven't encountered any resistance today.

NK: If there is another positive case , and we certainly hope there is not, of COVID-19 at Annie's Pub, what's your plan?

KEVIN O'CONNELL: I would do the same thing. If it happens again, I would ensure that everybody would be tested but we would have to re-examine the situation going forward after that -- if it happened for a second time, does that mean that we can't provide a safe environment? So, you know, myself and the rest of the management and ownership would have to sit down and have a hard discussion about the future.

NK: Mr. O'Connell, I hope it is, all things considered, a good season for you and your staff. Thanks so much for your time.

KEVIN O'CONNELL: My pleasure. Have a nice day.

NK: Take care.

KEVIN O'CONNELL: Bye bye.

AH: Kevin O'Connell is the general manager of Annie's Pub in Montreal. And that's where we reached him.

[Music]

Edmonton CFL name change

Guest: Natan Obed

AH: They haven't been able to get on the field, but the Edmonton Eskimos defense is still keeping busy. For years, the Canadian football team has been under pressure to change its name amid accusations that it is racist and outdated. But now that scrutiny may be at a tipping point, with the team's sponsors weighing in and the promises by another football team, Washington's NFL team, to change its name and logo. Natan Obed is the president of Canada's national Inuit organization, Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami. We reached him in Ottawa.

NK: Mr. Obed, earlier this week, Washington retired its NFL teams name and the logo. How closely do you think that was being watched in Edmonton?

NATAN OBED: I would hope there would be a clear sense of connection between the forces that made Washington retire its racist Indigenous moniker with the continued use of the Edmonton CFL team name here in Canada.

NK: When you do hear Edmonton's team name or see that logo, how does it affect you personally?

NO: Well, it's been used against me as an ethnic slur. So there's a whole host of things that it brings up in me about the treatments that I've had as an Indigenous person. And it also is a reminder that even in 2020, this country, Canada, is okay with its continued use. And that speaks to me about how far we need to go in reconciliation. And I can't wait until I don't have to see that name and that word appear across media in this country, because it is the last place where that term is used on a day to day basis and only because Inuit made that happen.

NK: Talking about it in a way, as you say, helps get to this point. But are you tired of and frustrated by having to keep talking about it?

NO: Yes, it's really difficult for me to see the ongoing online abuse that has been targeted against me and against Inuit because of this conversation. I'm tired of having to explain why using Indigenous peoples as mascots or monikers is fundamentally wrong, because these teams are not Indigenous owned teams. These aren't names that are coming from within a society. And I don't understand why people can't just understand that. Just demand that the teams change and move on with the sport. Leave us alone.

NK: We may be getting to that point. Earlier this year, though, the team wrapped up a three year long review saying it would keep the name after finding, "no consensus." Now they've launched a second review, which included a survey about a potential name change. Did you see that survey? And if you did, what did you make of it?

NO: I did see that survey. Straw polls on racism are unethical. The fact that many Inuit have stated very publicly that that term has been used against them as a racial slur, as an ethnic slur and is derogatory, should really be taken to heart by the team. Yes, there are Inuit who are okay with the term. There are some Inuit who support the ongoing use of that name. But nothing is going to displace those who have been devastated by the use of that name. That's why this seems to go to protect those who have been hurt by it and reconcile with the fact that we are a living, breathing Canadians and Indigenous people. We are not playthings for a sports organization or city.

NK: For our listeners who may not be aware of what was in the survey, it asked, among other things, whether the term "Eskimo" is disrespectful of Inuit or Indigenous people. It also asks whether there's, "too much cancel culture today."

NO: It is not up to a non-Indigenous person to wade into this. This isn't a debate. It can't be a debate. You don't see this happening against any other ethnicity in this country at this time. And I want to thank Boston Pizza and also BelAirDirect who have either threatened to or have withdrawn their sponsorship of the team. And I would then question corporations like TSN, Tim Hortons, Telus -- is this what your brand believes in as well? It is time to change this name.

NK: The survey also says the team chose its name more than a century ago out of, "acknowledgment, perseverance and hardiness of Inuit culture." What do you think when you hear that?

NO: The broader use of Indigenous mascots in sports across North America was largely predicated on the idea of a noble savage, also on the idea that Indigenous peoples were going to die out. And that was a widely held belief in late 1800s and early 1900s. So the idea of celebrating a society that was destined to be obliterated off the face of the Earth and celebrating the traits that a non-Indigenous society may have about an Indigenous people that they've never met or interacted with was highly offensive then, even though it was socially acceptable. And it's even more offensive now.

NK: Well, I wonder, do you think all of the conversations happening now suggests that things are different now and that a change to the name may actually come?

NO: In large part, the focus on the Black Lives Matter movement and the amazing work that's happened from Black communities mobilizing and those allies of that particular movement, it is now then progressed into support for Indigenous rights and pushing back against systemic racism. So it makes me optimistic that we are able to see things that we might not have ever thought would be possible in our lifetimes. I have no idea how this particular issue is going to play out, but I'm heartened by all of the things that have happened in the last few months, whether it be the removal of statues that celebrate people who've committed genocide or whether it is this renewed focus on the practice of non-Indigenous communities and corporations taking on indigenous mascots and monikers as if somehow they're honouring or respecting Indigenous peoples.

NK: Mr. Obed thank you so much for your time.

NO: Thank you for the opportunity.

AH: Natan Obed is the president of Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami, Canada's national Inuit organization. He was in Ottawa.

[Music]

Burger King cow farts analysis

Guest: Frank Mitloehner

AH: Burger King wants you to know something: the cows they use to make their burgers emit gas, and they plan to do something about it to reduce those emissions. So they hired Mason Ramsey, also known as the "Walmart Yodeling Kid" to sing a little ditty about cow burps and farts. Take a listen.

MASON RAMSEY: [SONG: "Cows Menu" - When cows fart and burp and splatter, well it ain't no laughing matter, they're releasing methane every time they do. And that methane from their rear goes up to the atmosphere, and pollutes our planet, warming me and you. Yes! That methane that they pass is a greenhouse gas that'll trap the sun's heat and change our climate too. Jane, is it hot in here or is it just me?]

AH: The ad goes on to say that Burger King has developed a new cattle feed that includes lemongrass and that the company claims reduces methane emissions by about a third. But some scientists think that claim may not pass the smell test. Frank Mitloehner researches emission mitigation in livestock at the University of California Davis. That's where we reached him.

NK: So I don't know whether to say you're welcome or I'm sorry to our listeners. Professor Mitloehner, what was your first thought when you saw and heard this new Burger King ad?

FRANK MITLOEHNER: Well, I was quite conflicted, I have to say, because on the one hand, I applaud Burger King for taking this issue of greenhouse gases from livestock and thus from the product that they serve, seriously. So, you know, finding mitigation efforts and funding mitigation efforts for researchers, not for me but for my colleagues in different places, that's positive. What I do not like at all is the hook they used because they are trying to make it a laughing matter when it is serious and that the basis of the whole piece, which is the mitigation effectiveness of lemongrass, has not really been published yet. So in one study, it was found to be inconclusive. And in the other study, it was written up in a report, but never published. And so with such unsure results, I would not go out to the world and say, here we have something that everybody should now go and run with.

NK: Yeah. The company's claim is that they've found a feed that reduces emissions by 33 percent. There was another study about lemongrass in cattle feed done, as I understand it, by one of your UC Davis colleagues. What did that one find?

FM: It was inconclusive because the type of lemongrass that was fed to those cows was not effective in reducing methane. And it's believed that it didn't have enough of the active ingredient in it.

NK: I understand your colleague, though, was using a different kind of lemon grass than the researchers in Mexico who worked with Burger King were using. How much of a difference might that make?

FM: That might make a lot of a difference, because if the active ingredient is different in concentration, then the results will be different as well.

NK: What do you think Burger King is basing that claim on that I mentioned -- the claim about the 33 percent reduction of emissions?

FM: As far as I know, it's solely on the study from Mexico. But as I said, this is not a published study. And so in my opinion, this is pretty shaky ground.

NK: And we should be clear, I just think the producers want me to say these words on As It Happens, but it's not farts that are the issue, it's burps -- when we're talking about cows and methane emissions, right?

FM: Yeah, there are two sources of methane from cattle. The one is enteric emissions, and that's methane coming from the rumen, from the stomach of those animals that have belched out. And the second source is waste that these animals produce which over time emits gases when that waste decomposes. But it's not flatulence.

NK: Important to note. And we should point out here that your own research isn't funded or backed at all by the beef industry. The other factor is when and how long, as I understand it, the cows are actually eating this feed. So how should that factor into the claims Burger King is making?

FM: So think about the lifespan of a beef animal being 14 to 16 months. So that is approximately the time they are alive and only the last third of their lives they are in the feedlot. The rest of their life they are on pasture. And so if you truly were to have a 33 percent reduction of methane, then you would have to show that reduction throughout the entire lifecycle of that animal, and not just the finishing phase. And so that also was not considered in their report.

NK: So it's not really reducing the overall footprint of these cows?

FM: If it does, then by no more than maybe five or 10 percent at most.

NK: So Burger King is already selling its reduced methane emissions beef whopper, catchy, maybe not as catchy a title as the song might be. It's being sold in some American cities now. So how many people do you think will hear that ad, that jingle, and just, I don't know, swallow it whole, so to speak? [Chuckles]

FM: [Chuckles] I don't know. That's a question I can't answer. But what I do know is that most people will not understand the nuance around all of this, will just believe what they are being told. And I find it's kind of unfortunate that the company didn't wait longer until they had real clarity around what this stuff does and how well also it works.

NK: Why do you think the company decided to do this now? Is it perhaps because of the pandemic -- well, on one hand, business may be slower, on the other, though, you know, sort of a more captive audience and hungry, if I can use that word for these kinds of cute, funny videos that then end up going viral?

FM: Well, as you said, it is a cute video and it's catchy. And the usual hooks are used and they want to show that they care, okay. That's a good thing. They want to show that they care. And I support that. But in my opinion, they didn't go about this the right way. And that will cost them some credibility. So the last sentence of the video was, since we are part of the problem, we are working to be part of the solution. Now, I totally agree with that statement. And that being a good motto, one that I would agree, I do myself here in my lab at UC Davis. But if you proclaim that what you're doing is scientifically sound and has been proven by major universities and so on, and then people look into this and find nothing, then you are risking reputational damage.

NK: Professor Mitloehner this has been a fascinating conversation. I'm so glad we could chat.

FM: Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

AH: Frank Mitloehner is a professor in the Department of Animal Science at UC Davis. We reached him in Davis, California.

[Music]

Part 2: Pioneering HIV/AIDS researcher Flossie Wong-Staal remembered as 'strong woman in a man's world'

Day school settlements

Guest: Wilfred Beaulieu

AH: At the start of this year, thousands of former federal day school students were able to start applying for compensation. Day schools like residential schools were designed to assimilate indigenous students while stripping away their languages and cultures. Some of those schools operated into the 1990s. But for Wilfred Beaulieu, the process hasn't been easy. And seven months later, he's left confused by the delays. Mr. Beaulieu is a day school survivor in Fort Resolution in the Northwest Territories, and that is where we reached him. And a note for our listeners: this interview contains descriptions of abuse.

NK: Mr. Beaulieu, can you take us back about seven months or so when you were filling out your federal day school claim? What's the process of filling out that claim like?

WILFRED BEAULIEU: The process of filling out that claim back then was kind of an emotional part for me. I was trying to go back and remember all of the abuse in school that happen in the federal day school so I had to go backtrack a long ways -- back into the 60s, actually until like I was six years old in 1966. So it was a lot of backtracking. And when I did kind of backtrack to what I really wanted to start from, from there it was like...I just started being traumatized all over again.

NK: There are five levels of compensation, as I understand it. The level one doesn't ask for a lot of specific proof of what happened. Levels two to five require a bit more. Which one did you apply for?

WB: It's the same in one of those levels, two to five. When I first applied, they told me it's going to take 210 days until I get a payment. On my 211th day, I called them back just to get a status update as to where things were on my claims after I gave them all my information as to who I am, my SIN number, date of birth. They finally told me that my case was still under review.

NK: It must be frustrating.

WB: It was, yeah. And as we were talking, he told me -- he actually cut me off and said, somebody was trying to get a hold of you yesterday. And he said the reason why they're trying to get a hold of me was because my application is incomplete, and it's on hold.

NK: And did they tell you how you could fix that situation?

WB: I asked him how, and he said he doesn't have access to that -- he was just at Deloitte, he just answers what they tell him to say.

NK: Well, Deloitte has said the process can take up to a year. They say they've also received more than 60,000 claims. There's also the pandemic, of course. Can you understand why the process might be slower or do you think that's not a good enough reason?

WB: Tha'ts not a good enough reason because from January to the middle of July -- middle of January, actually -- that's a long time. And since that time, I haven't gotten one word of any kind of correspondence from them. Nobody has given me a letter. Nobody has giving me a phone call. This is why I kept calling them.

NK: So what have they told you will happen next?

WB: He told me everything is on hold...

NK: And there's nothing you can do?

WB: No. They're going to send me another application.

NK: You've already said how traumatic it was filling it up the first time. Do you think you can go through the process again?

WB: I don't know. I don't think. I said, I don't even think so.

NK: This is a difficult question to ask Mr. Beaulieu, but as much as you're willing to reveal to us, can you tell me a little bit about what you experienced during your four years at the Peter Pond Day School?

WB: Just like I said, it was in between levels two to five. There was a lot of bullying that I went through with the teachers -- not just the teachers -- they favoured maybe a couple of boys, you know, and I did see that. And (they) were tough to guys who would go out to the smaller kids like myself and bully us.

NK: Some of our listeners might not know what level two to five means. So for you, what was it like in the classrooms at that school?

WB: There were some good times, you know. When I got to participate as a student and in sports. And there were also bad times and these times that I didn't like going to school. I didn't like it in school, I was scared of the teachers, and I failed a grade because of that. There was a lot of emotional abuse -- [inaudible] getting my head banged against a wall, getting straps and getting the back of my hair pulled and my ear twisted and shoved into the dust. A lot of stuff they got out on me. Given that's just the beginning.

NK: I'm so sorry you had to go through that Mr. Beaulieu. I know it's affected you into your life now obviously. And you struggle with PTSD.

WB: Yeah, I do. And having to even talk with you now...I do fell anger come up again.

NK: I'm sorry.

WB: And stuff like that automatically comes to me whenever the subject is brought up.

NK: If someone from Deloitte was working on these claims or someone in the government is listening to this interview, what would you like to say to them? What would you like them to do for you?

WB: Really get a hold of each client, the ones that haven't been compensated yet and let them know where things are -- just like myself, they should have told me a long time ago that my application was no good back in January. But after reviewing it, all of a sudden their 210 days is up, they tell me now that my application is no good after six months of telling me that my case was under review, under review, under review.

NK: Mr. Beaulieu I really do hope you get an answer soon and that we stay in touch so that we can find out what happens. Thank you so much for your time.

WB: Yeah really thank you very much for your guys' time as well.

NK: Take care.

WB: Thank you.

AH: Wilfred Beaulieu is a federal day school survivor. We reached him in Fort Resolution, Northwest Territories. In a statement to CBC North, the Federal Department of Crown Indigenous Relations said the mistreatment of Indigenous children is a tragic and shameful part of Canada's history. The department directed survivors who have concerns about the settlement process to contact Deloitte. And Deloitte has now responded to CBC North's request for comment, saying, quote, "We are meticulously reviewing claims in order to ensure survivors receive the compensation they are owed as quickly as possible." Adding that, an incomplete claim form will require collection of additional information and caused delays in processing.

[Music]

Jane Goodall

AH: I think it's fair to say that no human being knows chimpanzees quite as well as Jane Goodall.

JANE GOODALL: [SOUND: Chimp laugh] That's a chimp laugh. They have a sense of humor. They don't blush. They don't cry. They don't have tears.

AH: Jane Goodall imitating a chimp laugh on CBC a few decades ago. It was a few decades before that, that a 26 year old aspiring researcher walked into a forest in Tanzania for the first time. The research she would do there forever changed our understanding of chimps and challenged the conventions of scientific research. For example, that naming your subjects is a no-no. But Ms. Goodall used emotional insight in tandem with detached scientific observation to learn more than anyone had ever heard about Fifi, David Graybeard, and Frodo. This week marks the 60th anniversary of that game changing trip. So here's a little of Jane Goodall's interview with the CBC's Peter Gzowski from 1986.

JANE GOODALL: The chimpanzee is the closest creature to humans alive today. We share 99 percent of our genetic material. And if by studying a creature that's very complex and very intelligent, but not quite as complex as the human, not depending on culture the way that we do, and moreover, a creature without a spoken language, if we can sort out something regarding the biological basis of chimp behaviour, then we can look at humans and say, well, perhaps this factor is important for us too, let's test it.

PETER GZOWSKI: To what degree -- over your own years of observation and study -- to what degree has your sense of their intelligence or have you sensed that their intelligence is greater than you would had first anticipated? That's a wordy way of saying: do you think they're smarter now than you thought when you started?

JANE GOODALL: Well, I certainly do. And it's not really just because of the work I've done at Gombe. Although of course, the longer you study these chimps, the more you realize how intelligent they are. But of course, there's so much work being done on captive chimps -- teaching them ASL, the sign language of the deaf. Testing them, putting them in conditions where they are forced to work, to give an answer, to solve a problem. Encouraging them to use their brains. I mean, we humans, most of us don't use more than a very tiny percentage of our brainpower in ordinary everyday life and nor do the chimps. So you see the real brilliance of the chimp intellect more in captive situations than in the wild, but in the wild too. I mean, Figan, he made use of his elder brother in achieving top dominance rank in the male hierarchy. He only challenged the higher ranking male when his brother was present because he knew that his brother would help him and his brother did. So these are good examples of using intelligence.

AH: Pioneering primatologist Jane Goodall on CBC's Morningside in 1986. This week marks 60 years since the primatologists began her research on apes in Tanzania.

[Music]

Flossie Wong-Staal

Guest: George Pavlakis

AH: One of the giants in the fight against HIV/AIDS -- that's how a vice chancellor at UC San Diego remembers her. On Twitter, the CEO of a California life science association called her a "humble giant and a leader for women in science." They were talking about Flossie Wong-Staal, the Chinese-American molecular virologist who spent decades researching HIV and AIDS. Ms. Wong-Staal died earlier this month. She was 73. Dr. George Pavlakis first met Flossie Wong-Staal in the 1980s. He's a section chief at the U.S. National Cancer Institute today and we reached him in Frederick, Maryland.

NK: Dr. Pavlakis, tell us what Flossie Wong-Staal was like as a colleague and a friend.

GEORGE PAVLAKIS: Yes, she was a very accomplished scientist, a very strong woman in a man's world. I met her during exciting times and she was holding her own under pretty tough and moving conditions.

NK: Tell me about those exciting times. How did you meet? When did you meet?

GP: Oh, I met her at the beginning of the 80s, which was also the beginning of the AIDS epidemic. We were working in the same building at the National Cancer Institute in Bethesda. As a young independent researcher at that time, I wanted to get DNA clones of the AIDS virus to express by the brand new technology of genetic engineering, which we were developing at that time, so that we produced a vaccine for AIDS. And Flossie and the Gallo group who were cloning the virus in the same building with Beatrice Hahn and others in her group. So that's how we started our -- instead of just meeting at the corridors, we started our collaborations.

NK: How do you think Ms. Wong-Staal felt about being a prominent female scientist at that time, as you mentioned, a man's world?

GP: Oh, she loved it. That was her world. She was a good scientist. She enjoyed her work and she enjoyed being in the middle of it. I could compare the climate this time -- in the first that was pretty much what we scientist experience now with the new coronavirus, very exciting and troubling times at the same time, but also very rapid progress. Lots of collaborations, lots of changes, really a special time.

NK: Ms. Wong-Staal was working with the scientists, Robert Gallo and some may remember that there were years of controversy involving Mr. Gallo and French scientists, both sides claiming to have discovered the link between HIV and AIDS. How did she feel about this time? And did you think it overshadowed the work that they were all doing?

GP: In a way, yes. There is a big shadow over a lot of people in this area quite unfortunately. Of course, there were big egos and big interest and lots of controversies and there is enough blame to go around. But there was also a tremendous amount of good and useful science that was done, which also has to be put on the balance. And Flossie did her fair share or more. And actually, I believe she was a voice of reason. Flossie would never show weakness, of course, but she was trying to be fair, I think overall and had good relationships with a lot of other scientists. So I think overall she was a voice of reason.

NK: What would you say Flossie Wong-Staal's greatest achievement was?

GP: Well, she was tremendously instrumental in cloning the virus. I used that to, you know, essentially start my career in HIV/AIDS, which continues. In addition, she had other contributions, like understanding some of the regulatory circuits of HIV. That was extremely important to try to understand the disease, and also one thing that we still use, those of us that still try to develop AIDS vaccines after 35-40 years, she was among the first to study the variable regions and the coastal regions of HIV.

NK: I read that her dad named her Flossie after a typhoon. It really does sound like she was a force of nature.

GP: Yes. She was a strong woman. She was an elegant woman that did not want to show weakness. She was cool. I have never really seen her or very rarely seen her lose her temper. And she was an admirer of Grace Kelly. And she loved the beautiful things and beautiful dresses. And she was a very very interesting woman.

NK: She made some comments in the years before her death about the importance of diversity, how proud she was to be an immigrant to the United States. What do you think she made of the time that you're in, in the U.S. right now in terms of representation?

GP: I'm not sure that looking at where we are now, let me put it this way, I hope that she would not be totally disappointed that we were not moving really as fast as we should and could. Things that I saw in during the beginning of the AIDS epidemic, bad behaviours, stigma, fights, political problems, etc., etc., I was hoping that we would be wiser and we will not go through that again. But here we are and we have to try more and be better.

NK: I didn't know her, but I suspect she would have wanted that as well. Dr. Pavlakis thank you so much for your time.

GP: Thank you for helping us celebrate the life and the achievement of a great science.

NK: Thank you.

AH: Dr. George Pavlakis is a scientist and section chief at the National Cancer Institute. He was in Frederick, Maryland. Flossie Wong-Staal a leader in HIV AIDS research, died this month. She was 73. And you can find more on this story on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Eden Robinson

AH: Eden Robinson's book "Son of a Trickster" defies classification. It's fantasy meets humor meets horror with a dash of young adult literature thrown in for good measure or maybe bad measure, but in a good way. It's the kind of complicated take that takes eight years to write. But it has kept the Haisla and Heiltsuk author on the best of lists ever since it came out. And this year it's caught the eye of Canada Reads panelist, Kaniehtiio Horn. The Mohawk actor, will be defending the novel in next week's scheduled Canada Reads debates, which I have the honour of hosting. And Kaniehtiio got to sit down with Eden Robinson for a little one-on-one about the book.

EDEN ROBINSON: To me, at the heart of Son of a Trickster is Jared. The extreme care that he has for all the other characters, and even though they're complicated and sometimes dangerous, he still wants them in his life, he still cares.

KANIEHTIIO HORN: So how were you first introduced to the trickster character we get?

EDEN ROBINSON: In the crib with a bottle. They told us trickster stories as kids, daily. So when I first started to remember the stories they would be like -- after dinner, everyone used to gather at the kitchen table and we would be having dessert and smoking [laughter] drinking a lot of coffee. And I have so many wonderful storytellers in my family, and they would all try to one up each other. So when they started on the stories, they would get faster and crazier and funnier. And the goal is to make people laugh until they peed. [Laughter]

KANIEHTIIO HORN: Sounds good. [Laughter] Must have been loud. What is the one thing I should make sure everyone knows about your book?

EDEN ROBINSON: I would like people to enjoy the grey areas, the complexities and the interactions of the characters. I don't think having characters that are all likable all the time is interesting.

KANIEHTIIO HORN: True. That's why I like playing bad guys sometimes because it's like, you know, you get to go into the mind and you get to see what motivates them because they're, you know? You're not just bad and that's it. [Laughs]

EDEN ROBINSON: Oh, those are the best bad guys. You know, what's driving them -- it's something that they feel very deeply. Those are the best characters.

AH: "Son of a Trickster" author Eden Robinson, speaking with the books Canada Reads champion Kaniehtiio Horn. The battle of the books kicks off on Monday. For all the details, you can visit: cbcbooks.ca

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July 15, 2020 Episode Transcript

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